NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok. I was sat here thinking about things, as you do, and one thing came to mind. Political Correctness and how pathetic it really is.

For example, we are not allowed to call them "Bin Men" any more, as there are females who do this job, so it must be referred to as "Waste Disposal Officers."

I can't think of many other examples of the top of my head, being that it is 23:10 and a bit late for me to think too much. Just wondered what you all thought about it.

Ok, 'bin men' - 'waste disposal officers'. That takes a hell of a lot less effort than say, writing this out. It's such a tiny, tiny part of your life I wonder how people can get so upset over it. PC is one of the smallest issues ever, it's just utterly insignificant in any context.

A certain amount of political correctness is ok, for example, if it really is insulting to a certain group of people. An example would be not using the term "******." It is pretty obvious why it should not be used, but it is technically political correctness.

As for "bin men," I would have to know if the women were really all that upset about it. If they weren't, why change it? If they were really terribly upset, couldn't it be changed to "bin people" rather than "waste disposal officers"?

Ok. I was sat here thinking about things, as you do, and one thing came to mind. Political Correctness and how pathetic it really is.

For example, we are not allowed to call them "Bin Men" any more, as there are females who do this job, so it must be referred to as "Waste Disposal Officers."

I can't think of many other examples of the top of my head, being that it is 23:10 and a bit late for me to think too much. Just wondered what you all thought about it.

I do think that some PC is very necessary, but it has been taken to far at times to the point of infriging on peoples rights. PC became almost comical after 9/11. You couldn't say boo to anyone or you'd be called a racist or worse. There is always a place for PC but plain old common sense is equally needed too.

Eh last place I worked we weren't allowed to refer to any latinos as mexicans, including the ones from mexico. Go fig.

I think its great that people are being sensitive in their usage of words.

If that means that I will be labelled as being "politically correct" by the republicans, O.KAY.

They are just changeing names! It happens all the time, out-dated modes of expression give way to more modern terms.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go tune up my horseless carrage and go watch a moving picture.

They are just changeing names! It happens all the time, out-dated modes of expression give way to more modern terms.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go tune up my horseless carrage and go watch a moving picture.


LOL. Maybe I will send a real life telegram..

Political Correctness sucks, because offending people is great. If you're offended, it's your fault.

What really bugs me, actually, is the tendancy political correctness people have to harp on African Americans who made it, like Bill Cosby. He started poor and African American, got rich, and now they blast him for suceeding in SPITE of all of the programs I swear sometimes are designed to keep people in poverty these same people push!

It's nuts.

Ok, 'bin men' - 'waste disposal officers'. That takes a hell of a lot less effort than say, writing this out. It's such a tiny, tiny part of your life I wonder how people can get so upset over it. PC is one of the smallest issues ever, it's just utterly insignificant in any context.
Well said, except that you should consider that it is more of an issue to the poeple being offended.
Also, I think many people don't consider that PCness has never been enforced by law(In the U.S. There are other countries out there, for now ;) ). So, to complain about political correctness "forcing" you not to say certain things is exactly the same complaining that politeness is unfairly "forces" poeple to choose certain actions. Yes, poeple are often shunned by other individuals for not being PC and/or polite, but honestly people ought to be shunned for saying offensive things. I'm not saying that you should be withheld from saying those things, just that I choose not to listen if you're going to be needlessly offensive. That said, politeness has always worked much better than political correctness, which often turns a blind eye to offensiveness directed at majority groups.
Another aspect that people should note is that some "offensiveness" is merely meant to be joking. Such a joke is not necessarily in bad taste as it is not necessarily exclusive toward the "offended" people. An "offensive" joke becomes a problem when it seeks to exclude a group of people from the fun. In other words, "equal opportunity offenders" are ok in my book.

man n. pl. men (mn)
1. An adult male human.
2. A human regardless of sex or age; a person.

bin men is entirely correct. MAN is a very universal word.

I do think that some PC is very necessary, but it has been taken to far at times to the point of infriging on peoples rights. PC became almost comical after 9/11. You couldn't say boo to anyone or you'd be called a racist or worse. There is always a place for PC but plain old common sense is equally needed too.
Unfortunately, it seems tha PC is mostly about a lack of common sense.

See the thread about people actually thinking about wanting to change the Union Jack because it "might offend" Muslims...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=447833&page=1&pp=40

man n. pl. men (mn)
1. An adult male human.
2. A human regardless of sex or age; a person.

bin men is entirely correct. MAN is a very universal word.

An out-dated word (due to its double meaning).

Also ever thought that being called "Waste Disposal Officers" is more accurate and possibly good for moral?

Ok. I was sat here thinking about things, as you do, and one thing came to mind. Political Correctness and how pathetic it really is.

For example, we are not allowed to call them "Bin Men" any more, as there are females who do this job, so it must be referred to as "Waste Disposal Officers."

I can't think of many other examples of the top of my head, being that it is 23:10 and a bit late for me to think too much. Just wondered what you all thought about it.

That strikes me as a bad example for the patheticness of 'Political Correctness'. I think I just call them 'trash collectors' or say it on basis of person like "Look at that garbageman" or "She's a garbagewoman".

I honestly don't think it's something that anyone is going to give a shit about unless maybe you're a politician talking to the public... and even then, it probably won't be the general public that makes a fuss about the nuances of language.

Unfortunately, it seems tha PC is mostly about a lack of common sense.

See the thread about people actually thinking about wanting to change the Union Jack because it "might offend" Muslims...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=447833&page=1&pp=40
The press decided to put up that poll. And I took it, voted that it should not be changed, and saw the results. At the time I had voted, it was 83% No change, 17% change.

but why would you call a woman a man?

thats just silly. Would you get offended if someone calls you a woman? Just think about it.

I totally understand if a garbage collector woman is offended at being called a bin man.

It seems to me that most "politically correct" terms comes from people that are in no way, shape, or form in the path of the "political incorrectness" they point out. Either that, or just plain whiny.

Why else would there be so many jokes about it?

ooh no that meean you cant sing My Old Man's a dustman anymore

Political correctness is bullshit. It censors speech and certain lines of inquiry, for example an ex-mod on this board loves to call me a racist everytime I say that certain cultures need to give up practices like stoning people and adopt a more western attitude toward human rights. Also it makes telling a joke difficult. Now I don't go around telling jokes that are mean spirited, but I don't see the problem with telling a joke that plays on a stereotype as long as one doesn't overdo it or tell a blatantly offensive and insulting joke.

The press decided to put up that poll. And I took it, voted that it should not be changed, and saw the results. At the time I had voted, it was 83% No change, 17% change.
Don't you think it's a bit odd that even 17% think that the UJ be changed simply because someone might somehow be offended by a tenuous connection to a 400+ year old event?

Or that a Government official is the one championing the idea?

politically correctness is bullshit, its a myth created by the republicans to undermine the liberals.

ooh no that meean you cant sing My Old Man's a dustman anymore


And that's a bad thing?

I hate political correctness. I loathe its very being. I agree that words like '******', but when you're going in for calling blacks 'African Americans', as I believe is the practice now, things are getting out of hand. It doesn't even make sense - lots of them come from the Caribbean anyway, not Africa. And 'Caucasians' for whites makes even less sense. The Caucasus is in the Middle East, so people who live there aren't going to be fair of face.

I've never seen a female dustman, but I'd still call them a dustman. Like I'd call the female head of a commitee a Chairman.

politically correctness is bullshit, its a myth created by the republicans to undermine the liberals.
Er... Earth calling... where have you been?

What else would you call a call to change a nation's flag just because it might offend "somebody"?

Do you not think that PC is there to protect those people that have been oppressed for centuries? Surely the use of PC is common sense, it makes you think about what could offend. I admit the whole idea of offending one individual is very subjective, however being PC is not offending an individual it's about not offending, genralising, or oppressing an entire culture. It's about educating the masses, wellt hat's what PC means to me.

I hate political correctness. I loathe its very being. I agree that words like '******', but when you're going in for calling blacks 'African Americans', as I believe is the practice now, things are getting out of hand. It doesn't even make sense - lots of them come from the Caribbean anyway, not Africa. And 'Caucasians' for whites makes even less sense. The Caucasus is in the Middle East, so people who live there aren't going to be fair of face.

I've never seen a female dustman, but I'd still call them a dustman. Like I'd call the female head of a commitee a Chairman.


a female dustman? is that like an intersex person?

I hate political correctness. I loathe its very being. I agree that words like '******', but when you're going in for calling blacks 'African Americans', as I believe is the practice now, things are getting out of hand. It doesn't even make sense - lots of them come from the Caribbean anyway, not Africa. And 'Caucasians' for whites makes even less sense. The Caucasus is in the Middle East, so people who live there aren't going to be fair of face.

I've never seen a female dustman, but I'd still call them a dustman. Like I'd call the female head of a commitee a Chairman.


a female dustman? is that like an intersex person?

I really don't understand this whole thing about supposed 'political correctness'. I've never encountered any censoring on my speech - no one has ever told me that it is wrong to refer to a black board and should use the word chalk board, as The Mail and other right wing tabloids would have me believe. Some people would have you believe there is some kind of 'censor squad' that spies on people and if they use offending words they just vanish.

Frankly, I just think it is people with deep xenophobia issues moaning about nothing just because deep down they're pissed that at being able to call people 'pakis' and 'niggers' anymore like back in the 'good old days'.

Don't you think it's a bit odd that even 17% think that the UJ be changed simply because someone might somehow be offended by a tenuous connection to a 400+ year old event?

Or that a Government official is the one championing the idea?
Its not the Union Jack (UJ) that the vote is about. That is the flag of Great Britain (which is composed of England, Scotland, and a few others). The vote is about the flag of England, which is a cross on a white background. The reason it is coming up is also not because of a 400+ year old event, it is because of prison guards wearing this flag while guarding muslim prisoners.

Think about it, wearing a cross (a christian symbol) while guarding muslims, that might cause some problems. The answer is not to change the flag, though, which is why I voted no.

In terms of the 17%, you have to remember that a poll like this is likely to be biased by those who care enough about the situation to vote at all in an online poll about it. Those who feel that the flag needs changing aremore likely to bother to vote than those that feel things should stay the way they are. A more realistic percentage in the real world would be closer to 0.17% want change, 99% don't.

agreed. words are just words. if you're offended by a set of ideas, combat it with a stronger set of ideas, not by trying to forbid talking about it.

on an only semi-related note, i once got in trouble with one of my female friends for crying out "suck it, b#tches!" when i beat people at board games. the funny part (to me, at least) was that i the people i was saying it to were almost inevidably male.

Ok, 'bin men' - 'waste disposal officers'. That takes a hell of a lot less effort than say, writing this out. It's such a tiny, tiny part of your life I wonder how people can get so upset over it. PC is one of the smallest issues ever, it's just utterly insignificant in any context.
I beg to differ - founded on the Saphir-Worf (sp?) hypothesis that you can change the way people think by the way they speak, I see it as nothing short of subtle, sinister thought control.

Not to mention censorship and repression of my freedom of speech - on top of that, shitty-ass social engineering.

I think its great that people are being sensitive in their usage of words.

If that means that I will be labelled as being "politically correct" by the republicans, O.KAY.
I agree. I couldn't care less about being labeled "politically correct". There's nothing wrong with respecting other people.

I beg to differ - founded on the Saphir-Worf (sp?) hypothesis that you can change the way people think by the way they speak, I see it as nothing short of subtle, sinister thought control.

Not to mention censorship and repression of my freedom of speech - on top of that, shitty-ass social engineering.

Er... in the manner that 'political correctness' originally started, which was to substitute negative words with more neutral ones, influencing people to be more accepting and less insulting by changing the way they think is a bad thing...?

I beg to differ - founded on the Saphir-Worf (sp?) hypothesis that you can change the way people think by the way they speak, I see it as nothing short of subtle, sinister thought control.

Not to mention censorship and repression of my freedom of speech - on top of that, shitty-ass social engineering.

Hands Super-power tin-foil hat.

I hate political correctness. I loathe its very being. I agree that words like '******', but when you're going in for calling blacks 'African Americans', as I believe is the practice now, things are getting out of hand. It doesn't even make sense - lots of them come from the Caribbean anyway, not Africa.

Black Caribbeans are of African descent :rolleyes:

Er... in the manner that 'political correctness' originally started, which was to substitute negative words with more neutral ones, influencing people to be more accepting and less insulting by changing the way they think is a bad thing...?
Oh screw the original intent; it's become a monster nowadays.

Hands Super-power tin-foil hat.
No need - just look up Newspeak

All words are fine, as long as they are said to the right person at the right time. certain people who look like they have been playing in a coal bin are just to damn touchy... being PC is like :headbang:

I don't want none of you trying to ethnicmail me just because you dont like my views

Who you a calling paddy.

I beg to differ - founded on the Saphir-Worf (sp?) hypothesis that you can change the way people think by the way they speak, I see it as nothing short of subtle, sinister thought control.

Not to mention censorship and repression of my freedom of speech - on top of that, shitty-ass social engineering.

The conspiracy theories aren't necessary. It's hardly subtle or sinister when people are blatantly telling you to substitute one word for another. It's completely transparent: they think a phrase is outdated or offensive and suggest a new one. The subtlety is also let down by the fact that PC phrases are almost always long, unwieldy and ugly.

It's also not censorship or against freedom of speech. Censorship would be an official ban on certain words. You are only banned from thinks like discrimination in employment. And as for freedom of speech- you say something racially offensive, someone else calls you a racist. Both parties are exercising their freedom of speech.

No need - just look up Newspeak

Newspeak was about the pure destruction of words so as to eliminate thought crime. Good, bad, evil, est. were replaced with plusgood or ungood.

Modern Political Correctness (if you insist on calling it that) is about modernization of the English language to match new realities. Language changes all the time, new words come into existence and old words pass from use. Tell me what the term DVD meant in 1950, or what computor would have meant in 1734. Political terms often change on a regular basis, what it meant to be a Republican in 1865 is different from what it means to be a Republican in 2005 (the same for Democrats).

This is just the evolution of human society and ideas, there is no massive malevolent controling force (and no one has pointed out what harm it does except annoyance).

The conspiracy theories aren't necessary. It's hardly subtle or sinister when people are blatantly telling you to substitute one word for another.
Tell that to the unsuspecting masses...

Newspeak was about the pure destruction of words so as to eliminate thought crime. Good, bad, evil, est. were replaced with plusgood or ungood.
Well aren't you effectively committing a small-scale thought crime by saying something politically incorrect?

Tell that to the unsuspecting masses...


What? More people complain about PC than the number that actually adopt PC phrases.

ok i think that being PC is ok in certain situations, ie public speaking or work.. for the most part. but its getting out of control, for example i was at a bar and this yuppie woman was sitting next to me, and saw that the bartender was black, so she ordered an african american russian. that type of crap

Well aren't you effectively committing a small-scale thought crime by saying something politically incorrect?

As far as I'm concerned it is not a crime if one uses offensive or outdated diologue (except of course in work situations). If you want to walk around being a jerk then go ahead, nothing is stopping you (unless of course you don't want to look like a jerk).

ok i think that being PC is ok in certain situations, ie public speaking or work.. for the most part. but its getting out of control, for example i was at a bar and this yuppie woman was sitting next to me, and saw that the bartender was black, so she ordered an african american russian. that type of crap

And that is something I should care about/makes your life worse because?

ok i think that being PC is ok in certain situations, ie public speaking or work.. for the most part. but its getting out of control, for example i was at a bar and this yuppie woman was sitting next to me, and saw that the bartender was black, so she ordered an african american russian. that type of crap

Shit, seriously? That's hilarious. I'm pretty confident that this kind of stupidity will be recognised for what it is. Mostly, political correctness is about avoiding genuinely offensive terms, all this "vertically challenged" or "vocationally disadvantaged" bollocks is basically treated as humour rather than an actual way to talk.

As far as I'm concerned it is not a crime if one uses offensive or outdated diologue (except of course in work situations). If you want to walk around being a jerk then go ahead, nothing is stopping you (unless of course you don't want to look like a jerk).
For the record I don't believe it's crime to be offensive - just using that statement for arguments sake

seriously i remember cause i just turned 21 this was about two years ago

I hate political correctness. I loathe its very being. I agree that words like '******', but when you're going in for calling blacks 'African Americans', as I believe is the practice now, things are getting out of hand. It doesn't even make sense - lots of them come from the Caribbean anyway, not Africa. And 'Caucasians' for whites makes even less sense. The Caucasus is in the Middle East, so people who live there aren't going to be fair of face.
I really hate the words "African American". It's like saying they're not as American as the other "true" Americans. It's also like saying: "OK, so these are the 'Americans', and these are the 'African Americans', and these are the 'Native Americans'..." That's quite a way of inferiorizing minorities. Note that no-one says "European American"...

I don't hate political correctness though. It's mostly great and shows respect. But I think that saying African American or Native American shouldn't be considered politically correct. You guys were supposed to be all Americans.

That's another reason I like the military so much. Almost every Drill Sergeant in the Army is fond of saying things like, "I don't see no black or white or any other color here, 'cept GREEN! I catch any of you callin' one another names, I WILL bring smoke on your sorry green ass!" :D

I really hate the words "African American". It's like saying they're not as American as the other "true" Americans. It's also like saying: "OK, so these are the 'Americans', and these are the 'African Americans', and these are the 'Native Americans'..." That's quite a way of inferiorizing minorities. Note that no-one says "European American"...

I don't hate political correctness though. It's mostly great and shows respect. But I think that saying African American or Native American shouldn't be considered politically correct. You guys were supposed to be all Americans.

I dunno, there's not really a good alternative to Native American, other than the specific nations.

Some forms of PC, I think, are quite helpful, since it really isn't good to be offensive, at least as far as many people believe. However, given that I have never seen anyone even come close to supporting the more unusual PCisms, I have to wonder, who is pushing them? Where are the people calling for master and slave drives to be renamed?

I dunno, there's not really a good alternative to Native American, other than the specific nations.
Yeah, using the specific nation's name would do just fine. Much better than Native american, which is a misnomer anyway, as a native american is actually anyone who was born in America.

I beg to differ - founded on the Saphir-Worf (sp?) hypothesis that you can change the way people think by the way they speak, I see it as nothing short of subtle, sinister thought control.

Not to mention censorship and repression of my freedom of speech - on top of that, shitty-ass social engineering. Hands Super-power tin-foil hat.
As much as I hate to summon the specter of Chomsky (hate his politics) but Psycholinguistics is not a crackpot theory. You can see the efect in a very simple example:

Killed by guns. vs. Killed with a gun.

The first sentence implies causality, where the second identifies a tool used by the causal agent.

When one wishes to deemphasize the criminal and emphasize the tool, semantically shifting the blame creates the cognative dissonance necessary to restructure the perception of causality - i.e. the gun is to blame.

I would suggest you read Korzibski & Lee on General Semantics, as well as Chomsky & Pinker on theoretical neurolinguistics.

That's another reason I like the military so much. Almost every Drill Sergeant in the Army is fond of saying things like, "I don't see no black or white or any other color here, 'cept GREEN! I catch any of you callin' one another names, I WILL bring smoke on your sorry green ass!" :D
My DS wasn't nearly so nice. He wouldn't call Smoke, he'd call WP... (but then, he was an ex-Marine...)

Its not the Union Jack (UJ) that the vote is about. That is the flag of Great Britain (which is composed of England, Scotland, and a few others). The vote is about the flag of England, which is a cross on a white background. The reason it is coming up is also not because of a 400+ year old event, it is because of prison guards wearing this flag while guarding muslim prisoners.And how does one have a UJ without the st. George Cross? You can't. It is quite literally central, ( http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/flag.html )and the guards in question weren't wearing SGCs they were wearing UJ pins.

Ok. I was sat here thinking about things, as you do, and one thing came to mind. Political Correctness and how pathetic it really is.

For example, we are not allowed to call them "Bin Men" any more, as there are females who do this job, so it must be referred to as "Waste Disposal Officers."

I can't think of many other examples of the top of my head, being that it is 23:10 and a bit late for me to think too much. Just wondered what you all thought about it.

Up until about 1970, if a woman chaired a committee, she was addressed as "Madame Chairman," not "Madame Chairwoman or Chairperson (which is even more ridiculous). Female members of Congress (there weren't many, I must admit) were still called Congressmen, not Congresswomen. Same with Coucilmen, etc.

A Native American was anyone who was born in American, not just American Indians.

Gay just meant happy. It had nothing to do with sexual orientation.