NationStates Jolt Archive

First, is this really necessary for the flu?
Second, is this the same military that is over-committed in Iraq, or is it the military that couldn't control looters in New Orleans?
Third, isn't vaccination a better choice?
Fourth, is this the same President that can't secure our borders?
Last, if it happens, I hope it's in California!


WASHINGTON (AP) - President George W. Bush, increasingly concerned about a possible avian flu pandemic, said Tuesday that any part of the country where the virus breaks out could likely be quarantined, and he's considering using the military to enforce it. "The best way to deal with a pandemic is to isolate it and keep it isolated in the region in which it begins," he said.

Flu's been known to rack up quite a body count in the past. If vaccine is in short supply, as it was last year, forcible quarantine might be a good idea.

Flu's been known to rack up quite a body count in the past. If vaccine is in short supply, as it was last year, forcible quarantine might be a good idea.
I was in and out of the country a lot last year and I didn't pay much attention. Was the flu serious? I don't recall reading about numerous deaths.

Please note that they are talking about the avian flu - which has not been seen in humans. In other words, they are talking about a quarantine of chickens to keep them from being moved, sold to vendors, or allowing them to interact with ducks/etc. that may spread the disease.

This isn't about human deaths - it is about agriculture and possible problems with the ecosystem.

Meanwhile, I don't really see how the military would be all that useful, unless they are going to sit outside a quarantined farm and shoot anything that flies out of it.

Enforce a quarantine? In a country where the average household owns two cars and regularly uses internal commuter airlines? When influenza is contagious for a day or two before symptoms become severe?

Please note that they are talking about the avian flu - which has not been seen in humans. In other words, they are talking about a quarantine of chickens to keep them from being moved, sold to vendors, or allowing them to interact with ducks/etc. that may spread the disease.

This isn't about human deaths - it is about agriculture and possible problems with the ecosystem.

Meanwhile, I don't really see how the military would be all that useful, unless they are going to sit outside a quarantined farm and shoot anything that flies out of it.
No they aren't. This is a military enforced civilian quarantine. And yes, the avian flu has shown up in humans, and yes, it has been shown to jump between humans. It's killed at least 65 people so far.

No they aren't. This is a military enforced civilian quarantine. And yes, the avian flu has shown up in humans, and yes, it has been shown to jump between humans. It's killed at least 65 people so far.

Last I had read, it hadn't made the jump. *shrug*

I was in and out of the country a lot last year and I didn't pay much attention. Was the flu serious? I don't recall reading about numerous deaths. The flu didn't do much last year to my knowledge, but it's been known to wreak absolute havoc before - in Britain after the First World War, for example.

I was in and out of the country a lot last year and I didn't pay much attention. Was the flu serious? I don't recall reading about numerous deaths.
Not every strain of the flu kills a whole lot of people, but some do, and avian flu seems to be a likely candidate for a killer virus.

Last I had read, it hadn't made the jump. *shrug*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avian_influenza

Actually, there is a bigger problem with this proposal. Quarantines don't work with the flu. THis is because the flu is contagious before the person that has it shows any symptoms. By the time you show symptoms, you are no longer contagious. A quarantine only works if you can identify and seperate out those who can transmit a virus or bacteria before they transmit it, and you can't do that with the flu.

This is why something like avian flu represents a risk of killing hundreds of millions of people, which is the last estimate that I heard from the WHO.

The best way to combat the avian flu would be a vaccine, but so far, no one has finished developing one. New vaccines can take years to develop, and then further years to test to prove that they are not harmful (for example, some vaccines can actually cause the disease they are trying to protect against).

In National Geographic there was an article about the avian flu. Nasty stuff. H5N1, I think the virus was called. Turns the lungs black...

First, is this really necessary for the flu?
Second, is this the same military that is over-committed in Iraq, or is it the military that couldn't control looters in New Orleans?
Third, isn't vaccination a better choice?
Fourth, is this the same President that can't secure our borders?
Last, if it happens, I hope it's in California!

Always remember Bush is crazy. I'm sorry all you pro Bush's out there, but his recent behaviour re judical appointments and disturbing reports of 'fits' inside the White House and just his sheer lunacy in general. I know you have to be a bit made to be President bu t he takes the biscuit......

If the only solution is quarantine...but knowing Bush he's just going to use this to scare the country and have the media showing him doing something other than wasting billions in Iraq.

It would take at least six months, optimistically to produce a vaccine. And then it would not be enough for everyone.

According to recent reports, the avian flu is resistant to the only antivirals available, and there are not enough of those to go around anyway.

So quarantine is the only option.

If you don't give him the authority to enforce quarantine, don't blame him for the millions of deaths that will follow.

Your choice. Except that this time, you're rolling the dice with your own life.

If it gets bad in my neighborhood, I'm going to rely on my food stocks and well, and shoot anyone who comes near.

It would take at least six months, optimistically to produce a vaccine. And then it would not be enough for everyone.

According to recent reports, the avian flu is resistant to the only antivirals available, and there are not enough of those to go around anyway.

So quarantine is the only option.

If you don't give him the authority to enforce quarantine, don't blame him for the millions of deaths that will follow.

Your choice. Except that this time, you're rolling the dice with your own life.

If it gets bad in my neighborhood, I'm going to rely on my food stocks and well, and shoot anyone who comes near.
Well, let's hope it doesn't come to that, but considering the state of China's public health system and their tendency to not report disease outbreaks, it just might.

I was in and out of the country a lot last year and I didn't pay much attention. Was the flu serious? I don't recall reading about numerous deaths.
no it was a rather mild flu season.

im sure these are all contingency plan for if the very worst happens. no sense quarrantining whole populations (like you could do so effectively) unless massive numbers of people are getting sick and dying.

every damned year they warn us that the flu is going to be so bad that it makes 1919 look like a picnic and it never happens. they really need to do some better projections on this stuff so people can have a bit of confidence in their predictions.

Third, isn't vaccination a better choice?
No one can be assed to make enough, what with international patents and all - maybe 2 or 3 companies in the entire world make it in like 6 factories.

I'll just stock up on orange juice and chicken soup.

Of course, there's always the risk that the military quarantine's soliders will become infected, thereby eliminating any and all benefit that the process had in the first place.

Two words: Posse comitatus.

The flu didn't do much last year to my knowledge, but it's been known to wreak absolute havoc before - in Britain after the First World War, for example.

That was the Spanish Flu. Epidemeologists are divided on if it was even actually a flu. But that killed nearly as many people as the Black plague might have.

The flu didn't do much last year to my knowledge, but it's been known to wreak absolute havoc before - in Britain after the First World War, for example.

Everywhere after WWI actually, that particular flu pandemic killed tens of millions of people worldwide. And still everybody tends to underestimate the potential lethality of flu strains...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Flu

We're just waiting for the next really nasty flu strain to emerge...

Two words: Posse comitatus.
And there's the rub. Do you relax it for just this 'emergency'? What about the next time it's convenient? I don't know much about the history or motivation behind the law, but it's suspension looks like a precursor to martial law on demand.

I would like to see a bunch of the Hollywood types stuck in the land of fruits and nuts, though. Especially after the governator signed this stupid anti-paparazzi law.

And there's the rub. Do you relax it for just this 'emergency'? What about the next time it's convenient? I don't know much about the history or motivation behind the law, but it's suspension looks like a precursor to martial law on demand.

I would like to see a bunch of the Hollywood types stuck in the land of fruits and nuts, though. Especially after the governator signed this stupid anti-paparazzi law.
So use the national guard. Not the honest to god military.

So use the national guard. Not the honest to god military.
They are the over-committed ones I referred to. The regular Army is stretched so thin that the National Guard and Reserve troops are going to Iraq to relieve the regulars.

The National Guard absolutely should be the force of choice for domestic enforcement. After all, who else has as much experience shooting at college students?

They are the over-committed ones I referred to. The regular Army is stretched so thin that the National Guard and Reserve troops are going to Iraq to relieve the regulars.

The National Guard absolutely should be the force of choice for domestic enforcement. After all, who else has as much experience shooting at college students?
The military establishment shouldn't be used at all. However, better limit the damage then let the regular army (which is about as good at peacekeeping as the UN) take over. At least if someone goes spare up at the top, the damage is limited to only one state, not all of them.

DO yourselves a favor;

Stop washing your hands. Stop overcooking your foods. Stop taking special precautions. Get a little sick. Because your immune system needs practice. It needs germs to practice on. So give it the practice it needs and you'll be healthier in the long run.

I haven't had so much as a rash in twenty years. Other than from self-inflicted wounds, I haven't had a sick day in my life. Why? Because I'm a filthy smelly slob that loves to play in mud. :D

Nothing will make you sicker than avoiding getting sick.

First, is this really necessary for the flu?
Second, is this the same military that is over-committed in Iraq, or is it the military that couldn't control looters in New Orleans?
Third, isn't vaccination a better choice?
Fourth, is this the same President that can't secure our borders?
Last, if it happens, I hope it's in California!
What? Do you prefer half the nation dying of a flu pandemic? I'm afraid that plagues are one of the instances that the military should enforce order, because it is far too dangerous for normal life.

DO yourselves a favor;

Stop washing your hands. Stop overcooking your foods. Stop taking special precautions. Get a little sick. Because your immune system needs practice. It needs germs to practice on. So give it the practice it needs and you'll be healthier in the long run.

I haven't had so much as a rash in twenty years. Other than from self-inflicted wounds, I haven't had a sick day in my life. Why? Because I'm a filthy smelly slob that loves to play in mud. :D

Nothing will make you sicker than avoiding getting sick.
I agree. I watch my cousin with her children, she panics everytime they take a step or put their hands on something. LET THEM EAT DIRT for heaven's sake, they need to build up immunities and that is how they do it.

Enforce a quarantine? In a country where the average household owns two cars and regularly uses internal commuter airlines? When influenza is contagious for a day or two before symptoms become severe?


I think the government is very capable of doing such a thing. I am almost certain they have a plan in place to do such a thing if need be. At least the better have one.

DO yourselves a favor;

Stop washing your hands. Stop overcooking your foods. Stop taking special precautions. Get a little sick. Because your immune system needs practice. It needs germs to practice on. So give it the practice it needs and you'll be healthier in the long run.

I haven't had so much as a rash in twenty years. Other than from self-inflicted wounds, I haven't had a sick day in my life. Why? Because I'm a filthy smelly slob that loves to play in mud. :D

Nothing will make you sicker than avoiding getting sick.

Ahhh, Lunatic Goofballs, NS's own "Mr Trashme" :D

What doesn't kill you can only make you stronger hmm? I guess that means you are immune to mustard gas, most forms of physical pain and pyschological warfare :p

I think the government is very capable of doing such a thing. I am almost certain they have a plan in place to do such a thing if need be. At least the better have one.
I'd think they can do it. In one of the few success stories on federal government reaction time, on 9/11, all civilian aircraft were cleared from US airspace by noon of that day. The only other things they'd need are some troops and a bit of military hardware to shut down highways and interstates.

What? Do you prefer half the nation dying of a flu pandemic? I'm afraid that plagues are one of the instances that the military should enforce order, because it is far too dangerous for normal life.
I still don't understand the urgency. I've had flu. I felt like crap, took my temperature, took some aspirin, drank a lot of fluids that came right back up, lost 5 pounds and went back to work in a few days. What part of that is going to kill 100 million of us?

I still don't understand the urgency. I've had flu. I felt like crap, took my temperature, took some aspirin, drank a lot of fluids that came right back up, lost 5 pounds and went back to work in a few days. What part of that is going to kill 100 million of us?

Flu viruses do not all come in the same hat size mate. There have been strains that killed tens of millions.