NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's some points for you - should Turkey be allowed into the EU?

1) Turkey still has not recognised Cyprus (an EU member).

2) The Turks still suppress condemnation by their own citizens of the Armenian Massacre of 1915 and the Greek Pogrom on 1922-23.

3) Turkey has a growing economy, and great potential.

4) Political Reforms have been going well.

5) Turkey's army is known to be very much a 'back-seat-driver', and has an unerving tendency to take over.

6) Turkey is already in NATO.

7) It's already in Eurovision....

OK, so the last one's a bit lame. Personally, I think Turkey should be granted associate status first, then - once its reforms are up to scratch, total membership.

At the moment, it shouldn't be given full member status, I think.
But Turkey has been working towards EU membership for ages now, and they did make progress. I think I would agree with associate status for the time being, and some more reforms in the country for a few years... I'm not generally opposed to full membership of Turkey.

Human rights such as freedom of religion problems need to be adressed properly before anything actually starts happening with Turkey. Its government (while outwardly secular) is strongly influenced by political Islam.

Human rights such as freedom of religion problems need to be adressed properly before anything actually starts happening with Turkey. Its government (while outwardly secular) is strongly influenced by political Islam.

I couldn't care less whether they are 'influenced' by Islam or Christianity or Judaism or the Galgameks of Zeron 6- so long as they get their human rights issues up to scratch, recognition of Cyprus, deal with their history (Armenia, Kurds et al) and then, just maybe, its ok.... in a decade.

I personsally, don't want an EU border with Iraq- juuuust yet thank you very much! :eek:

Why not? We have to show the world (especially the east) that the EU and European nations are not islamo-phobes and try to include other cultures and beliefs, and not the opressors the fundementalists believe we are.

And plus, this is a great bargianing tool for getting those reforms in. So yay for turkey!

Turkey needs to address it's human rights, the Cyprus issue, and it's past before being considered for the EU.

I can see why Turkey is wanted in the EU.

Just as the UK is the 'bridge' (some would say in being constantly walked over) between the EU and US, so Turkey could become the bridge between the EU and the Middle East.

If this all works, the EU could become an epicentre for all international community interaction, the EU conversing with Russia and China and The Middle East and the US through members of the EU having close relations with nearby countries.

The US wants Turkey in the EU because the US are rather worried that Bin Laden may call for a move of the Jihad into Turkey, or that Turkey may move towards a strict Islamic state, and form a bloc with other Islamic countries.

Indeed, Condoleeza Rice rung up Austria, ordering them to drop their objection to Turkey joining. (Austria were playing to their electorate, and election is near, perhaps they wanted to show token resistance and intended to back down after a show of bluster.)

What the US should be wary of is that as the EU expands, it could leave the US rather isolated, as all it's friends in Europe are in the EU, and loyalties may be torn in times of US-EU differences.

A certain percentage of those against Turkey's membership is indeed because of the human rights, Cyprus and history issues, but there is also those suspicious of Turkey simply because the US urged the EU to let Turkey join.

When the US want something to happen, suspicion does fall.

It is perhaps, a bit like the EU telling the US To let Mexico join the United States of America, in that many wonder what business the US has telling the EU who should join the EU.

But the reasons for US encouragement of Turkey joining have already been explained in this post.

On one hand, they have had a huge impact upon European history.

On the other, they commit gross violations of human rights. (Kurdistan being a good example)

If Turkey ends up joining the EU without being forced to improve human rights, the EU will lose all credibility in my eyes as a force for democracy.

By bidding to join the EU, the turks are bidding to destroy themselves! They should drop their EU bid ASAP!

P.S. This is my 500th post

I think Turkey should stay out of the EU and not ruin their independence by submitting to the enstrangling enslavement of Brussels.

I think Turkey should stay out of the EU and not ruin their independence by submitting to the enstrangling enslavement of Brussels.
You and the poster above you share my exact same sentiments.

I think Turkey should stay out of the EU and not ruin their independence by submitting to the enstrangling enslavement of Brussels.
Yes. The EU is an attempt to destroy national sovereignty. By joining the EU, Poland destroyed the independence they fought so hard to reclaim. They should leave the EU, and so should all the other members, while there still is time!

A big discussion going on in German politics is whether Turkey should ever be allowed in. I think it should. Turkey doesn't, however, fulfill a lot of requirements which I feel it needs to meet before it can become a member. This could still take a lot of time.

Turkey still has not recognised Cyprus (an EU member).
A formality really - but nonetheless an important one. Whether or not they recognise the other side is not that big a deal though, compared to the Greeks vs Turks issue on the island being properly resolved.

The Turks still suppress condemnation by their own citizens of the Armenian Massacre of 1915 and the Greek Pogrom on 1922-23.
That is an important point. Germany, in its infinite shame for the past, has already acknowledged responsibility because it was allied with the Turks during the Armenian genocide. Turkey lags behind - when and how they could introduce this to their people properly is a mystery to me.

Turkey has a growing economy, and great potential.
Yes, but:
-Turkey has a huge agricultural sector, one that would have to be subsidised fully under existing EU policies. That's billions to go into people that farm with oxen. Not the most efficient of places to throw your money - and Germany as the biggest payer in the EU would have to fork out big.
-Many many Turks are not particularly wealthy. The income differences betwene cities and country are huge - we're not necessarily talking about 80 million consumers here.
-Cheap Labour from Turkey could overstretch industrial relations situations in pretty much all EU members, even those that are currently engaging in wage dumping (that being a swipe at our Euro-sceptic Polish compadre ;) )

Political Reforms have been going well.
But not well enough. Did you see the footage of that women's rights process recently? And would you rather go to a Turkish or to a German jail? In order to make an EU-wide judicial system work, jails would have to be of the same standard.

Turkey's army is known to be very much a 'back-seat-driver', and has an unerving tendency to take over.
I don't know...so did the Greek army a while back, and it's not making any trouble at this point.

Turkey is already in NATO.
Indeed, and I'm not at all a fan of their religious adherence to US policy. The EU took a bad hit when some members went with the US, and others against it about Iraq. Pushing the balance further towards our triggerhappy friends across the ponds isn't going to solve that. You'll see that both Britain (wants a weak EU) and the US (same) are quite happy to see the talks get on their way - indeed Chirac had to get quite indignant at Bush at a fairly recent NATO summit when Bush urged the EU to get their move on with Turkey.

It's already in Eurovision....
So is Israel...

I say, let them talk. It's expected to take a decade, at the end of which things might look very different.

Here's some points for you - should Turkey be allowed into the EU?


Whether the EU decides on full status for Turkey or some form of secondary status depends largely on what Turkey will accept. There are considerations that would make 'full status' very important.

a) Would the EU relish having a very large 'developing' Moslem country on its doorstep? Would it not be better to open one's arms to such a neighbor and assist in the 'development' instead of keeping them out?

b) Turkey would be and has been a bulwark against the rising tide of extremism in the Moslem world. Would not the influence of the EU (and Eurovision) help to support the Turkish position?

c) EU investments in Turkey are considerable and growing. Many Turkish people, despite the bias in some quarters, live in most EU countries and contribute as law-abiding citizens to those economies. Would it not be better that they be accorded the rights and privileges of EU citizenship?

d) Turkey, despite its stance on Cyprus, the massacres of Armenians, the role of the military, has shown itself capable of change. Would it not be in the interested of the EU to recognize those accomplishments and to support them?

Turkey should never, under any circumstances be allowed in the EU. Main reason is that they're muslim. I know a lot of people are going to accuse me of being a racist and tell me to join the Klan but I don't care. If you let Turkey in we'll have 70 million muslims being given the right to move into Europe. That's just asking for trouble and I would have thought the London bombings would have shown people just how moch a danger that will be.

I also think the economic benefits are overstated. I know Turkey will benefit greatly but I don't really care. They need us far more than we need them. Who else will benefit? Rich businessmen of course, who Blair is crawling to constantly. The rich businessmen will benefit through cheap labour in the UK and the opening up of export markets to Turkey. Will this benefit the man on the street? No, the average working man will be shit upon as usual if it means lining the pockets of big business. In fact I'd say it would make a negative difference to people's lives when their homes start being broken into.

I don't think that it would do anything to bridge the west with the islamic world. And even if it did I wouldn't care, people go on about that point as if we have an obligation to prove something to them. We don't have anything to prove to them, and they'll hate us regardless anyway.

They also occupy part of a recognised member state. I don't need to say any more about that.

But it isn't over yet. The French and Austrian governments will (They say) put the final say to their electorates in a referendum. If that happens then the weak-kneed European governments can kiss goodbye to their grand plans.

Yes. The EU is an attempt to destroy national sovereignty. By joining the EU, Poland destroyed the independence they fought so hard to reclaim. They should leave the EU, and so should all the other members, while there still is time!
National sovereignty and how many zloty? will buy you a cup of coffee. The important thing is the future of the Polish people, and that future is inextricably tied to the future of Europe. If the 20th century proved anything at all, it is that nationalism (national sovereignty) was a disease that cost the lives and futures of millions. I hope to see no one make the claim that nationalism brought with it anything but death and destruction.

Turkey should never, under any circumstances be allowed in the EU. Main reason is that they're muslim.
What?? The EU is not an all christian club, but your right that Turkey should not join, as by joining they will destroy themselves!

If you let Turkey in we'll have 70 million muslims being given the right to move into Europe.
How many do you think would move though, realistically. There's 15 million Muslims in the EU today (plus probably a few illegals), and 3.2 million Turkish citizens too.

Yes. The EU is an attempt to destroy national sovereignty. By joining the EU, Poland destroyed the independence they fought so hard to reclaim. They should leave the EU, and so should all the other members, while there still is time!

Yeah... doesn't democracy just suck... :rolleyes:

Terrible the way the majority of the population vote one way... and the govt follows :eek:

I know a lot of people are going to accuse me of being a racist
After reading that post...yes... yes you are being racist.

If the 20th century proved anything at all, it is that nationalism (national sovereignty) was a disease that cost the lives and futures of millions. I hope to see no one make the claim that nationalism brought with it anything but death and destruction.
Thats a lie!! National sovereignty does nothing wrong, its just the evil dictators! Just cause a nation is sovereign does not mean it is rouge and imperialistic!

Thats a lie!! National sovereignty does nothing wrong, its just the evil dictators! Just cause a nation is sovereign does not mean it is rouge and imperialistic!
But he does make a valid point- do you think its just a coincidence that the bloodiest century in history occured at the same time as the rise and peak of nationalism and the thought of 'national sovereignty'....

But he does make a valid point- do you think its just a coincidence that the bloodiest century in history occured at the same time as the rise and peak of nationalism and the thought of 'national sovereignty'....
Yes. it is a coincidence.

Yes. it is a coincidence.

...

Riiight..

Turkey should never, under any circumstances be allowed in the EU. Main reason is that they're muslim. I know a lot of people are going to accuse me of being a racist

Racist? Nah ... Muslim is not a race. Bigot? Oh hell yes ... very.

If you let Turkey in we'll have 70 million muslims being given the right to move into Europe.

Couldn't they move to Europe anyway if they wanted? Last I checked, the EU hadn't closed its doors to immigrants.

That's just asking for trouble and I would have thought the London bombings would have shown people just how moch a danger that will be.

By all means .... cower in fear. Terrorist: 1, You: 0.

In fact I'd say it would make a negative difference to people's lives when their homes start being broken into.

So you think Muslims go about breaking into people's homes? Zowie.

We don't have anything to prove to them, and they'll hate us regardless anyway.

I'm Muslim and I don't hate you. I don't know any Muslims who hate you. Your smug attitude and bigotry, yes, but you personally or your nation, no.

...

Riiight..
Well, national sovereignty has been around since ancient times.

Turkey shouldnt be in the EU, simply becuase the EU isin Europe, and turkey is officially in Asia, but is kissing Euro-Ass, i think turkey should quite trying to join the EU, becuase they are doing nothing but humiliate themselves...

I say it's high time to set them down that road.

I'm not saying let them in right now - there's still a LOT of work to do - but like in 10 years time they'd be ready. However, the EU should offer them full membership at these current talks.

Turkey has wanted in since the 60's, and they've made incredible headway. They are argueably the most secular, stable and modern Islamic country on earth, they have shown a willingness to work with Europe, they've pressed on to reform much of thier society and they're willing to do more. They've earned a guaranteed chance.

turkey is officially in Asia
If it moves a little to the East. Part of it is in europe, and Its largest city, Istanbul, is in Europe.

It's up to the EU, not me. And certainly not up to America.

The EU gets to try things and potentially make mistakes - just like the US.

And if it turns out well, they can be happy. And if it turns out to be a big f-ing mistake, then the whole world can laugh at it.

Sometimes, you can never tell how these things will work out until you do them.

Well, national sovereignty has been around since ancient times.

Not... really. The concept of 'nationality' in its modern sense only came about roughly towards the mid 1800's to late 1800's.

City states aren't 'national'. Empires aren't 'national'.

Turkey should never, under any circumstances be allowed in the EU. Main reason is that they're muslim. I know a lot of people are going to accuse me of being a racist and tell me to join the Klan but I don't care. If you let Turkey in we'll have 70 million muslims being given the right to move into Europe. That's just asking for trouble and I would have thought the London bombings would have shown people just how moch a danger that will be.Muslim != terrorist. In fact, the Turks are widely regarded as traitors by arab muslims. Not to mention that there already are big populations of muslims in Europe. France has loads and Berlin is probably still the second largest Turkish city.

Not... really. The concept of 'nationality' in its modern sense only came about roughly towards the mid 1800's to late 1800's.

City states aren't 'national'. Empires aren't 'national'.
Not all ancient civlizations are empres/citystates. Also, the main cause of war in the world is religion, so leave national sovereignty alone!

Well, national sovereignty has been around since ancient times.No. The concept that Tuvalu is as sovereign as the Russian Federation has been around roughly since the founding of the League of Nations.

In fact, the Turks are widely regarded as traitors by arab muslims .
Actually, on a side note... are Turks considered 'Arab'? I always throught they were simply 'Turkic'. :confused:

Like the common misconception that Iranians are Arabs, while in fact they aren't- they're Persian.

No. The concept that Tuvalu is as sovereign as the Russian Federation has been around roughly since the founding of the League of Nations.
Well, so I can be wrong. Religion is the leading cause of war, not national sovereignty.

Actually, on a side note... are Turks considered 'Arab'? I always throught they were simply 'Turkic'. :confused:

Like the common misconception that Iranians are Arabs, while in fact they aren't- they're Persian.Did I say that Turks were Arabs anywhere? :confused:

Not all ancient civlizations are empres/citystates.
Then could you name a few please?

No. The concept that Tuvalu is as sovereign as the Russian Federation has been around roughly since the founding of the League of Nations.

Thank you. :fluffle:

Well, so I can be wrong. Religion is the leading cause of war, not national sovereignty.List some of the more recent religious wars and conflicts, please...

Did I say that Turks were Arabs anywhere? :confused:

Oh not you- but it triggered something in the recesses of my memory! :D
I mean in general, are the considered 'Arab' or simply Turkic?

Oh not you- but it triggered something in the recesses of my memory! :D
I mean in general, are the considered 'Arab' or simply Turkic?Turks are Turkish. They're descended from the Turkomens (sp?). They actually come from around where Turkmenistan (land of the Turkomen) is today.

List some of the more recent religious wars and conflicts, please...
You know how Hitler was trying to wipe out Judaism, don't you?

You know how Hitler was trying to wipe out Judaism, don't you?Not for religious reasons. He considered them an inferior race and not "infidels".

You know how Hitler was trying to wipe out Judaism, don't you?

The Godwin, I saw it!

Turks are Turkish. They're descended from the Turkomens (sp?). They actually come from around where Turkmenistan (land of the Turkomen) is today.

Yeah, i knew that- they're ethnic groups stretch all the way across to the Uzbeks and Tajiks now. Just thought i remembered someone say before, 'Arab' ,for the sweeping generalisation that is from Morrocco to Iran and everywhere in between.

You know how Hitler was trying to wipe out Judaism, don't you?
Amongst other things in his spare time...

I think Turkey should be allowed a close association and planned full membership..at least in order to oppose fundamentalistic groups and tendencies and further binding turkey into the western world...btw, did you know that a lot of modern turkish social structure was influenced by Germany

Amongst other things in his spare time...
Like fighting for land to build concentration camps on?

Muslim != terrorist. In fact, the Turks are widely regarded as traitors by arab muslims. Not to mention that there already are big populations of muslims in Europe. France has loads and Berlin is probably still the second largest Turkish city.
who the Hell do you think you are to say what arabs think...
Arabs dont see turks as traitors... they see them as the corupt muslim country,,,

because they are anti-islamists, women are not allowed to get vailled in the schools, or univerities or any governmental buildings, believ it or not, Afghanistan was the only place in the world were women were obligated to get vailled, and saudi arabia, but the rest of the muslim world women get vailled because they want to, its there beliefes, in turkey, they are not allowed to practice their beliefes, we dont consider them as traitor, we believe they went of the track of the orients, and are kissing Euro-Ass to join in...
and arab=terorists???
did you know that terrorists attacks in arab countries are almost twice as much in the foreign nations in the past 20 years???

so don't come and tell me Arab are terrorists, im an arab and believe it or not , the only time i saw a rifle on real was in a hunting tournament, and that was it....
there are 300 million arabs, do you think if they were terrorissts you wouldv existed???

think who created Alphabet, Algebra, Medical Treatments, Literature. and endless things, The world should stop treating Arabs as the Crap of the World, while we had a civilization that can easily be copared to chinese, did you know that a third of the world abcient treasures are found in Egypt alone, did you know that the first Peace agreement was made by Arabs, did you know that the Arabs have Never broken a truce, (unlike crusaders, Israelis, and others)
did you that islam stoped slavery in the 6th century, and gave the blacks their rights, while Europe was huntiong and gathering, did you know that Islam gave women All their rights, when the west was still trying to build houses, so dont say that Arabs are terrorists... or barbarians... we were the fisrt to condem the 11 september attacks, and gave over 600 million dollars to USA for the Katrina issue, if it wasnt for us, Europe wouldve been in the dark ages...

Like fighting for land to build concentration camps on?
I reiterate....

Amongst other things in his spare time...

This isn't about Hitler- its about Turkey. If you reject them and push them away purely based on that they are Muslim or generally different, then you are pushing them into the hands of the fundamentalists.

They need to seriously clean up their act in the next decade before full membership happens. Hey, a lot could happen in that 10 years.

Like fighting for land to build concentration camps on?

Essentially most concentration camps were on german territory, only the "famous" i.e. generally known were outside in conquered territory...welcome to history base course again

Btw, where´s the point in turkey joining the EU?

and arab=terorists???
did you know that terrorists attacks in arab countries are almost twice as much in the foreign nations in the past 20 years???

so don't come and tell me Arab are terrorists, im an arab and believe it or not , the only time i saw a rifle on real was in a hunting tournament, and that was it....
there are 300 million arabs, do you think if they were terrorissts you wouldv existed???

think who created Alphabet, Algebra, Medical Treatments, Literature. and endless things, The world should stop treating Arabs as the Crap of the World, while we had a civilization that can easily be copared to chinese, did you know that a third of the world abcient treasures are found in Egypt alone, did you know that the first Peace agreement was made by Arabs, did you know that the Arabs have Never broken a truce, (unlike crusaders, Israelis, and others)
did you that islam stoped slavery in the 6th century, and gave the blacks their rights, while Europe was huntiong and gathering, did you know that Islam gave women All their rights, when the west was still trying to build houses, so dont say that Arabs are terrorists... or barbarians... we were the fisrt to condem the 11 september attacks, and gave over 600 million dollars to USA for the Katrina issue, if it wasnt for us, Europe wouldve been in the dark ages...
eh.... mate, he was defending your exact train of thought by going.... " Muslim = terrorist! How is that even logical?"

who the Hell do you think you are to say what arabs think...
Arabs dont see turks as traitors... they see them as the corupt muslim country,,,

because they are anti-islamists, women are not allowed to get vailled in the schools, or univerities or any governmental buildings, believ it or not, Afghanistan was the only place in the world were women were obligated to get vailled, and saudi arabia, but the rest of the muslim world women get vailled because they want to, its there beliefes, in turkey, they are not allowed to practice their beliefes, we dont consider them as traitor, we believe they went of the track of the orients, and are kissing Euro-Ass to join in...
and arab=terorists???
did you know that terrorists attacks in arab countries are almost twice as much in the foreign nations in the past 20 years???

so don't come and tell me Arab are terrorists, im an arab and believe it or not , the only time i saw a rifle on real was in a hunting tournament, and that was it....
there are 300 million arabs, do you think if they were terrorissts you wouldv existed???

think who created Alphabet, Algebra, Medical Treatments, Literature. and endless things, The world should stop treating Arabs as the Crap of the World, while we had a civilization that can easily be copared to chinese, did you know that a third of the world abcient treasures are found in Egypt alone, did you know that the first Peace agreement was made by Arabs, did you know that the Arabs have Never broken a truce, (unlike crusaders, Israelis, and others)
did you that islam stoped slavery in the 6th century, and gave the blacks their rights, while Europe was huntiong and gathering, did you know that Islam gave women All their rights, when the west was still trying to build houses, so dont say that Arabs are terrorists... or barbarians... we were the fisrt to condem the 11 september attacks, and gave over 600 million dollars to USA for the Katrina issue, if it wasnt for us, Europe wouldve been in the dark ages...


By the time the Arabs reached their zenith in 1254, their view of science had already fossilized. After that, there were no significant scientific discoveries by Arabs.

who the Hell do you think you are to say what arabs think...


Guess he didn´t get you right, hmmm?

who the Hell do you think you are to say what arabs think...
Arabs dont see turks as traitors... they see them as the corupt muslim country,,,Sorry, I haven't heard them referred to anything but "the traitors" when I've seen stuff on that issue.


and arab=terorists???
did you know that terrorists attacks in arab countries are almost twice as much in the foreign nations in the past 20 years???

so don't come and tell me Arab are terrorists, im an arab and believe it or not , the only time i saw a rifle on real was in a hunting tournament, and that was it....
there are 300 million arabs, do you think if they were terrorissts you wouldv existed???Quote me where I said Arabs were terrorists.

Turks are Turkish. They're descended from the Turkomens (sp?). They actually come from around where Turkmenistan (land of the Turkomen) is today.

Arabs are Arab Speakers, its not an ethnical thing, you can be caucasian and be an arab like lebanese, and be a black and considered an arab like Sudanese, and be a Berber and considered an arab like Egyptians...

while Turks, are people from Turkey
Turkmen are turkmenistani people

persians are persian speakers like iranians, Afghans etc...

Essentially most concentration camps were on german territory, only the "famous" i.e. generally known were outside in conquered territory...welcome to history base course again

Btw, where´s the point in turkey joining the EU?
Hitler built many concenentration camps on polish land.

Absolutely the EU should allow Turkey in to the fold!! Strategically, it would be a real coup and would check the traditional American presence.

By the time the Arabs reached their zenith in 1254, their view of science had already fossilized. After that, there were no significant scientific discoveries by Arabs.
meaning they stayed as a discovering power fo 600 years..
is that a small period???
since 654 ad to 1254

Arabs are Arab Speakers, its not an ethnical thing, you can be caucasian and be an arab like lebanese, and be a black and considered an arab like Sudanese, and be a Berber and considered an arab like Egyptians...


Odd, i would have thought the true definiton of 'Arab' was that you would have to be from the Peninsula, no?

while Turks, are people from TurkeyI was delving into where they originated from, not where they are now.

Sorry, I haven't heard them referred to anything but "the traitors" when I've seen stuff on that issue.


Quote me where I said Arabs were terrorists.
Apology
i guess i missunderstood your point, well i would be sending that reply to whoever thinks arabs are terrorists.`

Apology
i guess i missunderstood your point, well i would be sending that reply to whoever thinks arabs are terrorists.`Thankyou :)

Odd, i would have thought the true definiton of 'Arab' was that you would have to be from the Peninsula, no?
no
people from the arabian peninsula are = ARABIANS
while arab speakers are arabs
so im an arab but not arabian since im from egypt...

no
people from the arabian peninsula are = ARABIANS
while arab speakers are arabs
so im an arab but not arabian since im from egypt...

Ah... ok. Thanks for clearing that up :)

:fluffle:

Hitler built many concenentration camps on polish land.

I never questioned that, but there were even more (much more) in the former "Reichsgebiet"...and please check your spelling, even if you are agitated...and again, what is your point in the Turkey/EU discussion...polish concentration camps?

I never questioned that, but there were even more (much more) in the former "Reichsgebiet"...and please check your spelling, even if you are agitated...and again, what is your point in the Turkey/EU discussion...polish concentration camps?
It all started with me saying that by joining the EU, Turkey will destroy itself.

But how should it destroy turkey...getting a counterweight against fundamentalists, getting huge economical benefits...guess it should be good for most of the turks and turkey as a whole

It all started with me saying that by joining the EU, Turkey will destroy itself.

If Turkey joins the EU, they could become very much a powerholder, holding the key to good relations between the rest of Europe and Middle East Asia.

But how should it destroy turkey...getting a counterweight against fundamentalists, getting huge economical benefits...guess it should be good for most of the turks and turkey as a whole
Huge economical benefits?? Finland joined the EU because it had an economy problem, and EU membership did not fix it.

Huge economical benefits?? Finland joined the EU because it had an economy problem, and EU membership did not fix it.

In the long run all member nations in the EU reaped some economical benefit from joining...and the EU is not responsible for the fixing of problems with local economics. Member nations are in a kind of safety net, and where would Finland be without the EU today?

It´s not like your brother broke your favorite toy and you go running to to your mum (EU) and she´ll fix it

In the long run all member nations in the EU reaped some economical benefit from joining...and the EU is not responsible for the fixing of problems with local economics. Member nations are in a kind of safety net, and where would Finland be without the EU today?

It´s not like your brother broke your favorite toy and you go running to to your mum (EU) and she´ll fix it
I know, but thats the reason Finland joined, which obviously means they should withdraw.

I don't think Turkey would have spent 4 decades trying to get into the EU if it wasn't prepared to sacrifice some of its national sovereignty. To me it doesn't look like the effects of being in the EU are significantly good or bad, but I believe it would move Turkey towards becoming more open and democratic, especially if full membership was a reward for future reform.

I'm a bit confused about something that was said earlier about Turkey having to subsidise its agriculture - is that requred in the EU? If so, that's crazy! There's no good reason to subsidise agriculture in the long term...

But if they withdraw their economics may collapse...again, the EU is not the bigger brother coming to sort things out for you...and there is a worldwide economic decline, like it or not.

Turkey should never, under any circumstances be allowed in the EU. Main reason is that they're muslim. I know a lot of people are going to accuse me of being a racist and tell me to join the Klan but I don't care. If you let Turkey in we'll have 70 million muslims being given the right to move into Europe. That's just asking for trouble and I would have thought the London bombings would have shown people just how moch a danger that will be.


You are making a big mistake here. As a Turk, I should say that no honourable son of Turkish Republic would involve in such a despicable act. We condemn these terorists, and regard them as brainwashed fools - nothing more. Don't put us in the same shoes with some other muslim countries that are living like they did not even hear the word "democracy". And other from that you are making religious discrimination, which is another big mistake.

I know, but thats the reason Finland joined, which obviously means they should withdraw.

The original intentions aren't really important, they should only withdraw if membership is genuinely harming them or if the population wants to.

Human rights such as freedom of religion problems need to be adressed properly before anything actually starts happening with Turkey. Its government (while outwardly secular) is strongly influenced by political Islam.

Yes, my nation is secular. Of course there are religious person and extremists, but the extremists are really few. I'm not a religious person, and as a non-muslim Turkish man living in Turkey, I'm saying that people, whatever their religion is, can live peacefuly in Turkey.

It is also true that our current goverment is influenced by political Islam, but they are also stressing secularity in our country (not just outwardly).

Turkey should definantly be allowed in, followed soon after by Tunisia and Morrocco... After all without this expansionism how will Australia ever get in? :-)


On a more serious note, i think the assosciate membership should be given, but after that no more entries until the internal stuff is fixed, economies in all member states brought back up to nominal power etc...

Turkey shouldnt be in the EU, simply becuase the EU isin Europe, and turkey is officially in Asia, but is kissing Euro-Ass, i think turkey should quite trying to join the EU, becuase they are doing nothing but humiliate themselves...

I see that you do not have respect to our political dealings with Europeans. You do not have to respect Turkish people, as I don't have to respect Arabs. You personally can go and "kissass" (u started this offence) of whomever you like. I consider myself lucky that I was not born in an Arabic country instead of Turkiye. I don't care which backward arabic nation u are from...

Modesty, people, put down the flame-throwers

Turkey has shown massive interest in joining the UN -- arguing why they shouldn't want in, however much I agree, is a very moot point.

As for whether or not the EU should want to let them join...meh. There's no clear benefits, which is why the process has dragged on so long without a yes-or-no answer.

Modesty, people, put down the flame-throwers

*passes the popcorn*

The original intentions aren't really important, they should only withdraw if membership is genuinely harming them or if the population wants to.
Then Poland might withdraw soon because it has the most Anti-EUropeans per capita in europe.

Then Poland might withdraw soon because it has the most Anti-EUropeans per capita in europe.

Is it harming them? My country takes in per captia the largest influx of Central Europeans since they joined- we see no bother in it. They work, add to the economy, send money homw, help their families, the countries trade... i'm not really seeing the negatives aspects of membership here... :confused:

Sovereignty? ha, don't make me laugh. The miniute differences made by the bureaucratic morass in Brussels has not detrimentally affected the EU or Euro zone. You pay your taxes to your govt or a central govt... how'll affect your day to day life? In all honesty?

The Genoese had an old saying when they were under Napoleonic control : It is better to have a king far away, than next door ;)

Is it harming them? My country takes in per captia the largest influx of Central Europeans since they joined- we see no bother in it. They work, add to the economy, send money homw, help their families, the countries trade... i'm not really seeing the negatives aspects of membership here... :confused:

Sovereignty? ha, don't make me laugh. The miniute differences made by the bureaucratic morass in Brussels has not detrimentally affected the EU or Euro zone. You pay your taxes to your govt or a central govt... how'll affect your day to day life? In all honesty?

The Genoese had an old saying when they were under Napoleonic control : It is better to have a king far away, than next door ;)
If you ask if its harming them, then yes, its harming all its members. Turkey should drop their bid, so they do not meet the same fate.

If you ask if its harming them, then yes, its harming all its members. Turkey should drop their bid, so they do not meet the same fate.

How does it harm all its members? Something a bit more concrete than 'sovereignty', please.

If you ask if its harming them, then yes, its harming all its members. Turkey should drop their bid, so they do not meet the same fate.

Something tells me that you don't want Turkey in the EU, because there would be a massive migration of low wage Turkish workers into your country.

And they reproduce quickly - in a short time, Turks might be a majority in many EU countries.

Is that what you're afraid of? A Poland whose national population goes from Catholic Poles to Muslim Turks in a few generations?

How does it harm all its members? Something a bit more concrete than 'sovereignty', please.
so you think sovereignty is not something important?

so you think sovereignty is not something important?

Pardon me for being an American, but I thought that the idea behind an EU with an actual central government was to transform each individual nation state within Europe into something similar to a US state - on paper, still a "nation state" but in effect, only a part of a larger whole.

Now you know why the US doesn't want a UN with more power - that would be world government, and implies a loss of sovereignty.

Pardon me for being an American, but I thought that the idea behind an EU with an actual central government was to transform each individual nation state within Europe into something similar to a US state - on paper, still a "nation state" but in effect, only a part of a larger whole.

Now you know why the US doesn't want a UN with more power - that would be world government, and implies a loss of sovereignty.

But your states gave up sovereignty for the benefits of being united. The big states obviously sacrifice more than the small ones as they would be more independently powerful, but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I think the situation with the EU is similar, but far less viable because the European states have been independent for so long.

Since the US is a dominant world power it has little to gain from the world being arranged as a whole, which is why it opposes losing sovereignty. The fact that the states are happy with the nation's structure shows that the US isn't inherently opposed to giving up sovereignty when there is a good reason.

Another topic....

Look, you guys talk a lot when you do not know the nation. Yes, i might be biased somewhat, but i know with a sane mind that Turkey is not what you guys say it is.

We are not a poor nation, first of all. We have as many rich people as we do poor. Its just that some poor are appealingly poor, and some rich are overly rich. We do not have a strong middle class. Thats our problem.

We do not run fields with oxen. We run them with tractors and machinery. I dont know where you have seen this, but we are not in Tibet or anything. We have proper machinery. Believe it or not, our agriculture is pretty-much upto standards.

Human rights, human rights, human rights..."Much Ado About Nothing". Seriously, we are not human rights exploiters. We know full-well how to treat humans. Our police wont beat you to ground, our judges wont sentence you for death...

You are making a big mistake here. As a Turk, I should say that no honourable son of Turkish Republic would involve in such a despicable act. We condemn these terorists, and regard them as brainwashed fools - nothing more. Don't put us in the same shoes with some other muslim countries that are living like they did not even hear the word "democracy". And other from that you are making religious discrimination, which is another big mistake.

I seriously second that. Im a Turk too, and we are not terrorists. Now, Kurds are, and thats another point. Every day, headlines "Soldier is Killed in Kurd Terrorist Attack on Village". And you expect us to let them have their nation?

Getting back to terrorists, we suffer as much as you do from them. Dont blame us for being terrorists, because we are not.

We shouldnt be allowed because we are just not in Europe? Thats pitiful. I seriously pity your way of thinking. Thats the lamest thing i have heard since "why did chicken cross the road"...

Armenian Genocide...no such thing. You are blaming us of a thing which was defined 10 years later. Genocide meaning came up during the Holocaust, and is in no way comparible with the Armenian Relocation. Just learn the facts, please, before muttering.

I can understand why you are all so un-knowledged. All you do is listen to the media, watch stupid shows on tv about Turkey(seriously, they are stupid. They show the most cultural, weak, poor...the worst places of Turkey. The old men wearing Ottoman Empire things and all. Seriously, we have changed.), and your governments taking all this attitude against Turkey when most of them have not been in Turkey even once.

Please take this into consideration. I have tried my best to clear up peoples thoughts, but always new people keep on coming. I thank those people who support us in our run, and for those who do not see us compatible, i hope they reconsider, do some research, show some bit of interest.

Armenian Genocide...no such thing. You are blaming us of a thing which was defined 10 years later. Genocide meaning came up during the Holocaust, and is in no way comparible with the Armenian Relocation. Just learn the facts, please, before muttering.


It was genocide in the photographs taken in 1915. Not later.

http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html

The photos of Armin T. Wegner are among the few that capture the bleak struggle to survive facing Armentian deportees.

As a second lieutenant in the German Army stationed in the Ottoman Empire in April 1915, Wegner took the initiative to investigate reports of Armenian massacres.

Disobeying orders intended to stifle news of the massacres, he collected information on the genocide and took hundreds of photographs of Armenian deportation camps, primarily in the Syrian desert.

Wegner was eventually arrested, but not before he had succeeded in channeling a portion of his research material to Germany and the United States through clandestine mail routes.

When he was transferred to Constantinople in November 1916, he secretly took with him photographic plates of images he and other German officers recorded.

What?? Turkey in the EU?? It has less than 10% of area in the Europe. If they are gonna join, I think almost evry country in the world should join...

I think it is in the Maastricht treaty that is states something like "Any European country that respects the ideals of the European Union may apply for membership".
I would dispute whether of not Turkey is European in geographical terms alone; but more importantly, culturally, it is not a European nation. When you are Athens, Berlin, Madrid, Rome, Copenhagen, London, Paris, Tallinn or any number of other EU capitals, there is something subtle, something not easily put into words, but you know you are in Europe - there's something in common in the culture (despite the huge variations even within the EU, such as e.g. comparing Spanish culture to Czech culture). When you are in Ankara or Istanbul, you feel like you are in the Middle East or Asia (or perhaps even North Africa). Turkey is simply not culturally a European country. I think therefore it is irrelevant for Turkey to be an EU member-state, anymore than Morocco should be allowed to join.

I would have nothing against Turkey having a strong partnership with EU, like the former French and British colonies in the Caribbean enjoy.

I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know if this has been raised, but Turkey treats its tiny Greek Orthodox Christian minority very badly. Just visit the website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and see how many church buildings have been shut down by authorities recently. Istanbul used to have a large Christian faction but now its less than 2000 people.

If they have to accept the ideals of the EU, then perhaps they had better start by accepting the fact of the Armenian Genocide.

It was genocide in the photographs taken in 1915. Not later.

http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html

The photos of Armin T. Wegner are among the few that capture the bleak struggle to survive facing Armentian deportees.

As a second lieutenant in the German Army stationed in the Ottoman Empire in April 1915, Wegner took the initiative to investigate reports of Armenian massacres.

Disobeying orders intended to stifle news of the massacres, he collected information on the genocide and took hundreds of photographs of Armenian deportation camps, primarily in the Syrian desert.

Wegner was eventually arrested, but not before he had succeeded in channeling a portion of his research material to Germany and the United States through clandestine mail routes.

When he was transferred to Constantinople in November 1916, he secretly took with him photographic plates of images he and other German officers recorded.

I think the question should also be..should Austria be allowed to remain in the economic community with their racist attitudes. What about their role in Nazi politics during the 2nd world war and the ease with which a large section of the population are willing to embrace racist politics today?

It was genocide in the photographs taken in 1915. Not later.

http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html


Here, in Turkey, people that disagree that a genocide had been made to Armenians says that Armenians had revolted at these times with the aid of Russians. Ottoman Empire was consisting of many different ethnic groups that were living more or less peacefuly under Ottoman rule, but after nationality concept was widespread, Ottoman Empire was already corrupted and weakened, so it began to be divided. Some other nations and ethnic groups also had revolted.

Well, if Armenians had tried to gain independence from Ottoman Empire, it is clear that they fought with Ottomans and Ottomans responded. There sure should be casualities. The question here is if Ottomans systematically tried to torture and exterminate these Armenian people or not?

The photos are no proof by themselves, it is sure as hell these were hard times for all people in the Ottoman Reign. Outside forces came from different sides to invade the country, and still we Turks are wondering how our ancestors were able to stop the invasions and also laid a foundation of a new Republic, a new nation among many struggles!

The invaders are generally the Europeans but when the war of our independence was over Turkish Republic made many reforms (such as women rights) and had became more of a European nation.

Well about so-called Armenian Genocide, please try not to give much credit to propogandas. But I'm not saying that I am a good source of what happened at these times, I still have to do much research... Just tried to give you another perspective - yet the decision is yours to make...

Also sorry for gramatical mistakes (which I sense, but cannot tell where :) )

I think the question should also be..should Austria be allowed to remain in the economic community with their racist attitudes. What about their role in Nazi politics during the 2nd world war and the ease with which a large section of the population are willing to embrace racist politics today?

Austria have less than come to terms with their role in the second world war, but I think that is for a seperate discussion.

However, I do understand how Austria considered it hypocritical to include Turkey in membership talks whilst at the same time excluding Croatia. Both have comparable human rights issues... in fact, I think Turkey probably has far worse human rights issues than Croatia.

Well, if Armenians had tried to gain independence from Ottoman Empire, it is clear that they fought with Ottomans and Ottomans responded. There sure should be casualities. The question here is if Ottomans systematically tried to torture and exterminate these Armenian people or not?

The photos are no proof by themselves, it is sure as hell these were hard times for all people in the Ottoman Reign.

I see unarmed women and children in the photos. And the person who took them, along with several German officers, were witnesses to what took place. And they describe it as genocide. And they were officers serving in the German Army, which was allied with Turkey at the time.

It's rather clear that it was genocide, and even the Germans who saw it knew that it was genocide - right then - not ten years later.

Germans who had no propaganda motive to say so.

So much people is stating that the Turkiye has some "issues" about human-rights to be corrected/made. Can someone tell me what are these issues/problems (not including the political disagreements about Cypruss and so-called Armenian Genocide) ? I am asking out of curiosity. Please be more concrete people...

So much people is stating that the Turkiye has some "issues" about human-rights to be corrected/made. Can someone tell me what are these issues/problems (not including the political disagreements about Croatia and so-called Armenian Genocide) ? I am asking out of curiosity. Please be more concrete people...

A summary of some of those that concern me

- The law in which you can be arrested and prosecuted for 'insulting or belittling' the state or its institutions (=censorship)
- Illegal occupation of northern Cyprus
- Lack of implementation of new anti-torture laws and laws giving right to legal representation when arrested
- Continued instances of torture
- Extreme policing of demonstrations (excessive use of peppar spray, trutchens etc)
- Continued effective restrictions on use of other languages other than Turkish
- Continued inequality between genders

Turkey has undoubtabely made progress in the last few years. But I don't believe it has reached anywhere near acceptable levels of human rights standards to be admitted to EU yet. A lot more needs to be done.

However, I do understand how Austria considered it hypocritical to include Turkey in membership talks whilst at the same time excluding Croatia. Both have comparable human rights issues... in fact, I think Turkey probably has far worse human rights issues than Croatia.

In the past yes, but I was under the presumption that both countries had cleaned up their acts.
In fact, (off of the top of my head) the only thing that is holding back Croatia from entering into membership talks is that it is seen as not complying in the hunt for an international criminal. Otherwise, it likely would be entering talks as we speak.

In the past yes, but I was under the presumption that both countries had cleaned up their acts.
In fact, (off of the top of my head) the only thing that is holding back Croatia from entering into membership talks is that it is seen as not complying in the hunt for an international criminal. Otherwise, it likely would be entering talks as we speak.
Well, Carla del Ponte has now said (yesterday, coincidentally I believe) that Croatia is now fully cooperating in the hunt for war criminals. I believe that otherwise Croatia is far more democratically developed that Turkey.

Turkey has serious issues. It has and is still working to improve these issues, which must be welcomed, but I don't believe it has gone far enough yet for EU to allow membership or start talks.

- Lack of implementation of new anti-torture laws and laws giving right to legal representation when arrested
- Continued instances of torture
- Extreme policing of demonstrations (excessive use of peppar spray, trutchens etc)
- Continued effective restrictions on use of other languages other than Turkish
- Continued inequality between genders


I think at least some of the restrictions regarding other languages have been nullified. People can now freely speak (for example) Kurdish and make Kurdish TV & Radio programmes if I know correctly. What remains on this issue to be done?

Which inequalities between genders and which "instances of torture" ? Seriously, I want to know because I don't see any of these (Maybe because I have grown up in this community :confused: ).

Also, as a man, I wanted to state that I have the utmost respect for woman rights, which is one of the most important reforms that Turkish Republic has made in my opinion.

But your states gave up sovereignty for the benefits of being united. The big states obviously sacrifice more than the small ones as they would be more independently powerful, but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I think the situation with the EU is similar, but far less viable because the European states have been independent for so long.

Since the US is a dominant world power it has little to gain from the world being arranged as a whole, which is why it opposes losing sovereignty. The fact that the states are happy with the nation's structure shows that the US isn't inherently opposed to giving up sovereignty when there is a good reason.
Thats america. The EU is in europe. Also, america became a nation because before the USA, those places were british colonies! Europe has nations in it, not colonies.

Turkey oppresses religious freedom! They banned Islamic headscarves in schools!

Turkey oppresses religious freedom! They banned Islamic headscarves in schools!

We don't generally regard this as an oppression. After all, isn't the idea of oppressing the most common religion in the country is funny (Muslims oppressing themselves :D )? Turkish people are generally muslim and free in their religion. Islamic headscarves in schools is banned partly because they can be used to hide identity of the individual (to get someone else to do your exam for example :) ). And also the school uniforms are fixed in primary & highschool, differences generally are not allowed in school uniforms.

I think at least some of the restrictions regarding other languages have been nullified. People can now freely speak (for example) Kurdish and make Kurdish TV & Radio programmes if I know correctly. What remains on this issue to be done?

Which inequalities between genders and which "instances of torture" ? Seriously, I want to know because I don't see any of these (Maybe because I have grown up in this community :confused: ).

Also, as a man, I wanted to state that I have the utmost respect for woman rights, which is one of the most important reforms that Turkish Republic has made in my opinion.

It is still illegal to politically campaign in other languages than Turkish. People who don't speak wish to speak Turkish are still very heavily discriminated against, e.g. in the workplace it is still almost impossible. Education in Kurdish is very difficult to obtain.

There are numerous reported instances of torture. Since the new laws and greater supervision of police authorities, torture has often moved on from physical kinds to "invisible" forms, e.g. sleep deprivation, forbidding the use of the toilet etc.

I think Turkey should stay out of the EU and not ruin their independence by submitting to the enstrangling enslavement of Brussels.
The "enstrangling enslavement" of Brussels has turned countries like Portugal, Spain or Ireland into developed nations. :p

i think turkey will be smart if it stayed out of the EU, stay its own nation.

The "enstrangling enslavement" of Brussels has turned countries like Portugal, Spain or Ireland into developed nations. :p

can you prove those nations couldnt of done that on their own?

can you prove those nations couldnt of done that on their own?
It would have been much harder, if not impossible, believe me. A lot of money came in from brussels, and it was (and still is) very, very useful in modernizing the country (although slightly misused - but that was our fault, not brussels')
I'm from Portugal, and most of the environmental policies and safety standards we have here have been imposed by the EU. Without the EU forcing our governments to regulate these areas nothing would have been done.
Besides, our economy is much more competitive than before, and people do live waaay better than we did before joining the EU :)

It would have been much harder, if not impossible, believe me. A lot of money came in from brussels, and it was (and still is) very, very useful in modernizing the country (although slightly misused - but that was our fault, not brussels')
I'm from Portugal, and most of the environmental policies and safety standards we have here have been imposed by the EU. Without the EU forcing our governments to regulate these areas nothing would have been done.
Besides, our economy is much more competitive than before, and people do live waaay better than we did before joining the EU :)

yes you prove a poiunt of what happened when you did join, but whats the alternative, you never know, it could of been 400% better if you stuck it out on your own for a couple more years, then agian it may of been worse. but you will never know now.

Here's some points for you - should Turkey be allowed into the EU?

1) Turkey still has not recognised Cyprus (an EU member).

2) The Turks still suppress condemnation by their own citizens of the Armenian Massacre of 1915 and the Greek Pogrom on 1922-23.

3) Turkey has a growing economy, and great potential.

4) Political Reforms have been going well.

5) Turkey's army is known to be very much a 'back-seat-driver', and has an unerving tendency to take over.

6) Turkey is already in NATO.

7) It's already in Eurovision....

OK, so the last one's a bit lame. Personally, I think Turkey should be granted associate status first, then - once its reforms are up to scratch, total membership.

Yes the last one is exceptionally lame as the horrifying experience that the Eurovision offers is for Europe...not limited to the EU! ButI know where your coming from.

What's NATO got to do with it? Not all EU countries are part of NATO.

Nough said about the army..but at least they show willingness to commit on an international level.

Politcal Reforms are going well for now at least, but not all new EU members have fantastic political systems.

Turkey is an enormous agrarian county, which means huge subsidies :eek:
and more CAP. There is also the point that Europes population is aging which is very true and someone needs to pay taxes in years to come and as Turkey has a large population..problem solved. I'm not so sure

Cyprus must and will be recognised....or penalties

Turkey has a desperate HR record.


Their culture is so so so different to that of the rest of the EU

As an EU citizen I do NOT want Iraq to be on the boarder of the EU, its not shunnng responsibility for the Middle East, because the responsiblity is already there, but thats just to much of a change for the EU if it were a United States of Europe well then I think the EU and its members would be more open and more importantly able to handle Turkey entering the EU. I mean we don't even have a fully developed Common Foreign Policy. or any form of a military(I really mean a peace corp of sorts)

To be honest EU memebers can't handle the culture shock of the new members coming into Europe as Eastern European Culture is quite different from that of Western Europe. Turkish Culture is so different racism would up to disgusting levels, its already rising and the EU aren't doing anything to help prevent it. Its enevitable that Turkey will join, but I think that First the UK should convert to the Euro and I liked Austrias idea of a partnership, not to commital.

Thats america. The EU is in europe. Also, america became a nation because before the USA, those places were british colonies! Europe has nations in it, not colonies.

The point is that the US is made of states which ceded thier sovereignty to the federal government. They didn't have to but thought it was worth it. The main difference with Europe is that the nations have long histories of independence from each other so would be less willing to give up sovereignty. That's not to say it wouldn't be good for them.

Turkey oppresses religious freedom! They banned Islamic headscarves in schools!

Hasn't France done the same thing, or at least seriously considered it?

Hasn't France done the same thing, or at least seriously considered it?

if you are trying to use an example to prove your point, dont use france :p

Here, in Turkey, people that disagree that a genocide had been made to Armenians says that Armenians had revolted at these times with the aid of Russians....Well about so-called Armenian Genocide, please try not to give much credit to propogandas.
It's not propaganda though.
It's something of the number of a million or so people who were driven from their homes, and the majority of which died while being forced to march into the desert. Those people don't live anymore - where do you suppose they went? I can understand that Atatürk didn't want such a stain on his young new nation - but you need to have a look at the facts.

The German Government has accepted its share of the blame, yet Turkey still refuses to - all the while teaching their students that this never happened! What would you say if Germany did the same thing with the holocaust. Afterall, there is no more evidence for the holocaust than there is for the Armenian Genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
Especially the section mentioning a few relatively high-profile Turks who do accept that it happened should be interesting.

yes you prove a poiunt of what happened when you did join, but whats the alternative, you never know, it could of been 400% better if you stuck it out on your own for a couple more years, then agian it may of been worse. but you will never know now.
Yeah, I understand, but you know how history is like, you just can't test it... All I know is that it was a change for better, and definitely not for worse. The EU has been a positive thing, without a doubt.

It's not propaganda though.
It's something of the number of a million or so people who were driven from their homes, and the majority of which died while being forced to march into the desert. Those people don't live anymore - where do you suppose they went? I can understand that Atatürk didn't want such a stain on his young new nation - but you need to have a look at the facts.

The German Government has accepted its share of the blame, yet Turkey still refuses to - all the while teaching their students that this never happened! What would you say if Germany did the same thing with the holocaust. Afterall, there is no more evidence for the holocaust than there is for the Armenian Genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
Especially the section mentioning a few relatively high-profile Turks who do accept that it happened should be interesting.

In wikipedia, it is said that "The neutrality of this article is disputed.". And also I'm not sure if this should be regarded similar as the holocaust. Still thanks for the info. I don't want to talk boldly/incorrectly on this subject; I may speak once I am equipped with enough knowledge. I wrote above post just to give a sense of what people that are not believeing it ever happened are (kinda) thinking...

It's not propaganda though.
It's something of the number of a million or so people who were driven from their homes, and the majority of which died while being forced to march into the desert. Those people don't live anymore - where do you suppose they went? I can understand that Atatürk didn't want such a stain on his young new nation - but you need to have a look at the facts.

The German Government has accepted its share of the blame, yet Turkey still refuses to - all the while teaching their students that this never happened! What would you say if Germany did the same thing with the holocaust. Afterall, there is no more evidence for the holocaust than there is for the Armenian Genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
Especially the section mentioning a few relatively high-profile Turks who do accept that it happened should be interesting.
Some of the Armenians were left in the Black Sea so they would die there. It was real. It's not propaganda. Propaganda is a government hiding or blurring such an important historical fact from its people. And for a nation to minimize (or ignore...) a genocide, that's just an unacceptable lie.
I think that Turkey should join the EU, but only after Turkey recognizes the Armenian and Greek genocides. Turkey also need to recognize Cyprus, and needs to get along with Greece. A country can't join the EU when it doesn't recognize one of its members and has tense relationships with another member.

if you are trying to use an example to prove your point, dont use france :p

Heh, I know that, I'm from New Zealand- France committed an act of terrorism here about 20 years ago :p . But still, if they don't belong in the EU who does?

In wikipedia, it is said that "The neutrality of this article is disputed.". And also I'm not sure if this should be regarded similar as the holocaust. Still thanks for the info. I don't want to talk boldly/incorrectly on this subject; I may speak once I am equipped with enough knowledge. I wrote above post just to give a sense of what people that are not believeing it ever happened are (kinda) thinking...
It's nice that you're willing to talk openly about it, and that you're not bound by what has been told to you at school :)
Well, as for the article's neutrality being disputed, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's biased. It might be the case that its neutrality has been disputed by someone who has no desire of being neutral ;)