NationStates Jolt Archive

There is an assumption that God is not material.

Assuming all is material and material is all, how does this disprove God?

Supernatural? Supernatural is just that which is natural which is not explained by our current ken.

I must be missing something though, see no value in proving that the material world is the material world.

Assuming all is material and material is all, how does this disprove God?

It doesn't, but if god is material, then he must obey the physical laws. Which disproves much of the bible, including creation (first law of thermodynamics). The reason why this is not used in the creationism debate is that god is generally assumed to not be material.

I have another proof to add to this conversation!

Proof that God cannot be disproven!

God, for the purposes of this proof, "God" is defined as being an omnipotent being.

Since He is omnipotent, He can do anything; this includes doing things contrary to the laws of logic and laws of physics.

Therefore, it is possible for a God to exist in a universe even if his existence can be disproven!

Therefore, creating a proof that God cannot exist does NOT preclude a God existing.

Therefore, it's not possible to disprove the existence of God.

Q.E.D.

(Note - I am indeed an atheist, and I do not think that God exists, but I consider it more of a preponderance-of-evidence decision rather than a proof. )

Since He is omnipotent, He can do anything; this includes doing things contrary to the laws of logic and laws of physics.

This also means he is capable of not existing, meaning that because God exists, God does not exist.

This also means he is capable of not existing, meaning that because God exists, God does not exist.

Ah, that just means he is CAPABLE of it. It doesn't mean he does. I don't presume to know what he does actually do with his omnipotent powers - maybe he does exist, maybe he doesn't.

Though He may indeed Exist and Not Exist at the same time. In my opinion, that would be the coolest thing ever. Living in a universe in which God is a logical contradiction and yet exists anyway... it has some sort of strange appeal...

I hold that the Universe is in entirely materialistic; if something is not materialistic it does not exist. Everything comes down to the material (even thoughts; electrical and chemical signals in the brain). This is not based on "faith" as the material world is all around us (and can be examined/tested, est.). One can doubt the sole existence of the material world, but such doubt is baseless as all alternatives require the fore mentioned leap of faith (ultimately there are no alternatives).

The sole material world cannot be disproved, and it automatically discounts anything non-material (the supernatural). Thus god is disproved by the failure to disprove the material world.

The ultimate proof against god is the universe itself.

(thoughts, counter-ideas, condemnations?)

Note: Those just joining us please read the full thread as what I have written above is fleshed out and explained more. Thank You.

Sorry, but I have better things to do than read 17 pages of response and counter-response. Anyway, you define material things as things made up of matter, correct?

Nice. If time is a problem, then space is also though. They are both a matter of distance and direction between events. Time is mainly a way of percieving things, but it is not necessarily anything outside of humanity.

I don't agree with that for space. Matter occupies space yes, but if you take the matter out of that space, the space is still there, whether or not it is filled with a different chunk of matter. But I don't wanna go down the path towards the vacuum argument again, anyways.

Anyways, as for proof/disproof of God, I still hold to my earlier argument.
Whether or not God actually exists is something of a moot point. The concept of god does exist, and people will likely always believe. Like one person so acurately said, the concept of God required Faith, the leap of faith that goes beyond certainty. If God was proved 100%, no faith would be required, everyone would believe, and religion would lose all mysticism.

So one could say that God can never be proved or disproved. If there is a God, he cannot be disproved, because truth cannot be disproved. God, however, would never let himself be proved, to keep that vital element of faith present. If there is no God, it cannot be proved, because a falsehood cannot be proved. Likewise, it cannot be disproved, as you can't disproved a negative, for reasons I've mentioned previously (the future is unknown, we can never know everything)

Alright, as previously said prolly to many times to count, you cannot prove nor disprove anything related to faith or faith dependent.

And now to throw modern physics into this debate...if it hasn't been already. There is more to the universe then matter. Scientists have been gaining momentum with the dark matter/energy theory. Cause with out this elusive stuff the universe would not make sense (the speeding up of the universe after the initial slowdown of the big bang). If anything after the big bang matter would have just gone at a constant speed because there wouldn't be anything to slow it down but that is not the case. The universe is expanding. Some other forces outside of gravity (which is directly related to matter) are at hand.