NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems to me that there are people who participate in these forums who are happy, even gleeful, when bad things happen under the Bush Administration's watch, or as a result of it's policies.

For example, there are definitely people who are happy to learn that the FEMA was slow to respond in New Orleans; that international intellegence was wrong about WMDs being in Iraq; that insurgents in Iraq are still killing civilians, police, and coalition soldiers; that Katrina and Rita-related losses will cost people jobs and slow the economy; that the stock market is stagnet; that inflation is up, etc.--pick your poison, every administration has problems and makes mistakes. What I see is a celebratory atmosphere when things go awry, and I don't understand it.

My question is twofold:

1. If you're one of those people, have you considered what kind of person that makes you?

2. If you're one of those people and you don't care what kind of person that makes you, what the heck is wrong with you?

I enjoy it when anyone except me suffers. I don't care whose administration its in. :D

It seems to me that there are people who participate in these forums who are happy, even gleeful, when bad things happen under the Bush Administration's watch, or as a result of it's policies.

For example, there are definitely people who are happy to learn that the FEMA was slow to respond in New Orleans; that international intellegence was wrong about WMDs being in Iraq; that insurgents in Iraq are still killing civilians, police, and coalition soldiers;
I agree it's pretty disgraceful. I am dismayed by suffering.

For every such person, there is another who says, "My country, right or wrong," and seeing the same things, experiences nothing but indifference.

I find that every bit as monstrous.

I'm not happy at any of those things, but there is a tinge of "We told you so," which can be misunderstood to be shadenfreude.

I have a question for you and it is also a twofold:

1. If you're not one of those people, have you not considered what kind of person that doesn't makes you?

2. If you're not one of those people and you do care what kind of person that doesn't makes you, what the heck isn't wrong with you?

Is it possible that they are not happy about the suffering, but rather feeling vindicated because part of the sky did fall?

For every such person, there is another who says, "My country, right or wrong," and seeing the same things, experiences nothing but indifference.

I find that every bit as monstrous.
That.


And, how arrogant and willfully ignorant to paint outrage as glee. To say that people are happy to have those situations is to try and recharacterize the debate, to belittle and diminish descent. It is arrogant and insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself. Pathetic.

If Bush where a good president then we'd be happy. I find this assholish accusation even more insulting from someone who would pretend that these situations don't exist, or that it's anyone elses problem or fault than the one in charge, the 'buck stops nowhere' president. What does it say about you that disaster after disaster, poor decision after poor decision, you continue to support someone so clearly unqualified for the job? Where is your compasion?

Call it a fetish.

My goodness, what a poisonous little thread.

Still, it's a fine example of a popular tactic nowadays. Don't consider the issues or debate their merits. Instead, paint those who disagree with you as something "less than," preferably "less than human".

All in all, a prime example why I left the Republican Party and went independent. The GOP is too willing to use this tactic and the Dems are too dumb to call them out on it.

I do not take joy in the suffering, I personally would rather no-one had to endure it...

...but as it stands it may be the thing that takes down the Conservative institution, because 99% of the blame can be layed at their feet. The outright gunning-for-profit at the expense of everything and everyone is downright horrid and that people are starting to wake up to that is encouraging...

Pitty it's taken over 5000 of their own people and probably close to 100,000 people of other nationalities dead for them to start waking up.

It is quite natural to be happy at being proven right (and the ignorant masses that ignored you getting it in the teeth). Perhaps that is a little morbid and cynical, but it is quite common. When one trys to point out, for example, that stacking FEMA with unqualified cronies could lead to catastrophic failure, and one is ignored, one tends to become a bit jaded. That is what happens when one lives in an impersonal world, constantly beset by problems, and feels powerless yet is knowledgeable. Feeling joy at ones powers of deduction are one way to stop despair from crushing you (and also stop from going mad).

You are however confusing the joy at being proved right with joy over the horrible events themselves (which is completely different).

well to answer your question NO
but personally , i like to suffer, (as in me)..
i believe suffering strenghtens you against harder sufferings, and since life is all about suffering, we all beed to be trained well enaugh, but i took it to an edgy place, where im suppose to have unstable nerves (never heard of that B4, stupid egyptian doctors).... and have a few white hairs from the age of 11, and my fingers need a mechanic... hehe, well it is sufering but will strenghthen me more....

not neccessarily people all the time, but I do enjoy watching entire rainforests burn down. :D

not neccessarily people all the time, but I do enjoy watching entire rainforests burn down. :D
yeah your right abou that one...

I find it refreshing that a flamebait thread disguised as an attempt at shame for lack of compassion gets shot down so quickly. I was ready to take the original poster to task for such a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument but my fellow thinking NSers have beaten me to it (which is usually better than being beaten with it, but that depends on what it is and who's doing the beating).

Thank you, fellow dissenters. :D

That.


And, how arrogant and willfully ignorant to paint outrage as glee. To say that people are happy to have those situations is to try and recharacterize the debate, to belittle and diminish descent. It is arrogant and insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself. Pathetic.

If Bush where a good president then we'd be happy. I find this assholish accusation even more insulting from someone who would pretend that these situations don't exist, or that it's anyone elses problem or fault than the one in charge, the 'buck stops nowhere' president. What does it say about you that disaster after disaster, poor decision after poor decision, you continue to support someone so clearly unqualified for the job? Where is your compasion?


Nice flame.

It's interesting that you take the subject personally.

It seems to me that there are people who participate in these forums who are happy, even gleeful, when bad things happen under the Bush Administration's watch, or as a result of it's policies.

For example, there are definitely people who are happy to learn that the FEMA was slow to respond in New Orleans; that international intellegence was wrong about WMDs being in Iraq; that insurgents in Iraq are still killing civilians, police, and coalition soldiers; that Katrina and Rita-related losses will cost people jobs and slow the economy; that the stock market is stagnet; that inflation is up, etc.--pick your poison, every administration has problems and makes mistakes. What I see is a celebratory atmosphere when things go awry, and I don't understand it.

My question is twofold:

1. If you're one of those people, have you considered what kind of person that makes you?

2. If you're one of those people and you don't care what kind of person that makes you, what the heck is wrong with you?

1. To be honest, I don't think "those people" exist. No one I know was cheering Katrina on when the storm surge overwhelmed the levees, nor do I know anyone who tips a glass to Al Queda whenever they hear about another IED blowing a Humvee up and taking out two or three more Marines. You are ragging on a strawman here instead of anyone real.

2. See above.

I personally don't want to see bad things happen to America. I want America to be Lake Wobegon writ large and every American to be healthy, happy, and above average. Nevertheless, I've been pointing out for at least five years that Republican leadership will not bring us to that goal, because their policies make it impossible for that to happen. For that, I've been castigated as a traitor and an idiot, all by people who simply do not want to see that how they view the world and the Republican party is not in accord with how it is. Even now, Bush has support from four in ten people in this country, despite the fact that he cannot manage an economy, control spending, fight a war, or keep his nose in his own damn business, which were ideally the things that Republicans were best at. So the best way to put what I feel right now is a combination of vindication mixed with horror: time has shown that Bush is just as incompetent as I've long-since said he was, but that is tempered by the fact that he may have very well single-handedly destroyed America and the world's chance for a Pax Americana with his insistence on sticking to a failed worldview.

My goodness, what a poisonous little thread.

Still, it's a fine example of a popular tactic nowadays. Don't consider the issues or debate their merits. Instead, paint those who disagree with you as something "less than," preferably "less than human".

All in all, a prime example why I left the Republican Party and went independent. The GOP is too willing to use this tactic and the Dems are too dumb to call them out on it.

I don't think I characterized dissent as malice per se. If I did, please direct me to how you reached that conclusion.

Nice flame.

It's interesting that you take the subject personally.

He calls the argument pathetic in the grand Classic Rhetorical tradition of attacking the vessel because it cannot hold water, not the potter whose vessel is flawed.

That's hardly a flame...so what's your reaction say about you?

Defensive much?

Nice flame.

It's interesting that you take the subject personally.
LOL, you're too late mate, you've already been owned. :p

1. If you're one of those people, have you considered what kind of person that makes you?

A Democrat?

I don't think I characterized dissent as malice per se. If I did, please direct me to how you reached that conclusion.

Throwing out specious accusations that "some people" are "celebrating" when certain tragedies occur obfuscates the issues themselves and the legitimate critiques surrounding them. Indeed, the charge itself was put forth without any sort of corroborative detail.

The list of disasters and snafus you offered also smacks of bias.

This thread itself is nothing more than a pointless ad hominem attack.

It seems to me that there are people who participate in these forums who are happy, even gleeful, when bad things happen under the Bush Administration's watch, or as a result of it's policies.

For example, there are definitely people who are happy to learn that the FEMA was slow to respond in New Orleans; that international intellegence was wrong about WMDs being in Iraq; that insurgents in Iraq are still killing civilians, police, and coalition soldiers;

I agree it's pretty disgraceful. I am dismayed by suffering.

This is one of the most annoying pieces of intellectual fraud out there. Anything you're mistaking for sachenfreude (sp) is merely hope that this will be the colossal fuck up that will finally make the people see how awful Bush really is. Sadly, we have been disappointed at every turn to see the depths to which America's willful ignornace will sink.

Republican politician "Oh, I was totally wrong about dismantling FEMA, invading Iraq, and failing to provide the troops with the arms and equipment that they needed. I shouldn't have subcontracted all the logistics to KBR who ended up feeding our troops nothing but sandwiches. And I bet you liberals who thought all those things were bad ideas are just tickled pink that you were right."

Republican voters, "Yeah, what's wrong with you liberals? Just because you disagreed with Bush and he turned out to be wrong about everything you think we should start doing things your way now? It's despicible the way you liberals will try to capitalize on the incompotence of the conservative leadership. Just for that, we're going to keep voting for Bush. How do you like that? It's you're fault we're going to keep voting for the incompotent asshole who's destroying our country."

Aside from that, any marriage counseler will tell you that one of the biggest signs of a disfunctional relationship is something called "negative mind reading." It means that you assume that the reason other people do things that are not in themselves bad is because of bad motives. So if someone tries to point out how the president is doing a lousy job republicans will say that it's because they're just jumping at the chance to indulge in "Bush Bashing." They make this assumption because they're in a disfunctional relationship with America, and the DLC is their co-dependent. Howard Dean was trying to organize an intervention, but as is so often the case, the troubled party just reacted violently and stormed out.

well to answer your question NO
but personally , i like to suffer, (as in me)..
i believe suffering strenghtens you against harder sufferings, and since life is all about suffering, we all beed to be trained well enaugh, but i took it to an edgy place, where im suppose to have unstable nerves (never heard of that B4, stupid egyptian doctors).... and have a few white hairs from the age of 11, and my fingers need a mechanic... hehe, well it is sufering but will strenghthen me more....
Pain ( our own! ) is good. It lets us know we're still alive.

I will join you for awhile, starting this October 17th, and continue for a few weeks. We will be brothers in suffering. I promise to be supportive of you.

Pain is somewhat like fear: you can allow it to wash over you and make you more aware, but when it is gone, only you will remain. [ see the quote in my signature below ]. I don't know what faith you trust, but may God/Allah/Yhaweh support you and strengthen you in your suffering.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

there is quite a difference between being glad that the administration was shown to be wrong in its justification for invading a country that never did anything to us and being glad that an insurgency has formed and is killing civilians.

isnt there?


i am very happy to have bush and the republican party shown to be fools whenever i get the chance.

i do not relish the true suffering of people in iraq or the US.

1. To be honest, I don't think "those people" exist.

That's fair. It's a little tough because most people wouldn't admit to feeling happy about those things. Those that would admit to it would be rightfully dismissed as crazy anyway, so we don't need to talk about them.

Still, I just can't reconcile the tone of glee that I get from some some of these postings when discussing failures and/or bad things that happen either as a result of mistake or natural causes during this Administration.

About a year ago, I overheard two normal looking gals while waiting to cross the street at a busy intersection. They were going on about the election and one of them remarked that "wouldn't it be great if there was a major terror attack (in the United States) right before the election?" I'm not sure who the gal was supporting, but she obviously had the compassion of a S.S.

Xenaphobialand, I'm not saying that there aren't Conservatives who are the exact same way, but I'm hoping people will think about what's in their hearts when they engage in that sort of partisan wrangling.

p.s. our macroeconomic indicators conclude that the national economy is doing splendedly at this time. :)

That.


And, how arrogant and willfully ignorant to paint outrage as glee. To say that people are happy to have those situations is to try and recharacterize the debate, to belittle and diminish descent. It is arrogant and insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself. Pathetic.

If Bush where a good president then we'd be happy. I find this assholish accusation even more insulting from someone who would pretend that these situations don't exist, or that it's anyone elses problem or fault than the one in charge, the 'buck stops nowhere' president. What does it say about you that disaster after disaster, poor decision after poor decision, you continue to support someone so clearly unqualified for the job? Where is your compasion?
Nice flame.

It's interesting that you take the subject personally.
You know, if you're going to label posts as "flames" that quickly and easily, you are opening yourself up to accusations of flamebaiting.

What she said is monstrous, but judging an entire spectrum of the debate on the basis of one dumbass does not a good theory make. Generally speaking, you have to look at the more median views of the public, and eliminate the outliers.

Of course, one of the things that continually terrifies me about the Republican party is that the outliers are currently in charge.

Edit: No, the economic indicators are not going well, unless you get your primary form of income in the form of stock dividends. In that case, things are going splendidly because stocks and corporate profit margins are up significantly. Of course, the average citizen doesn't live on stock dividends; he lives on a wage, and real wages are down from a year ago. Moreover, a year ago the average citizen didn't have to contend with $3 a gallon gas and the resulting spike in the price of every consumer good that comes with it. So the average person is effectively burning the candle at both ends, and this at a time when savings have virtually dried up and the credit-card industry has effectively rewritten the bankruptcy laws to squeeze every last drop out of people who are making ends meet with credit. This nation is effectively one downturn in the market away from a nation being turned out their homes and rendered penniless.

He calls the argument pathetic in the grand Classic Rhetorical tradition of attacking the vessel because it cannot hold water, not the potter whose vessel is flawed.

That's hardly a flame...so what's your reaction say about you?

Defensive much?

I'm not sure if you're serious.

To quote him: It is arrogant and insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I mean, dang, you're entitled to your opinion, but I seriously question your judgment if you don't see this as a personal attack. "arrogant" goes to a person's heart, not how an argument is structured. I suppose you would think that he's indicating that I should be ashamed of how poorly my argument is structured, not of who I am?

Anyway... unless you're big enough of a person to retract your statement, I see no point in continuing with this digression...

LOL, you're too late mate, you've already been owned. :p

You are entitled to your opinion, "mate" :)


I just see a lot of people getting really angry and defensive.

You know, if you're going to label posts as "flames" that quickly and easily, you are opening yourself up to accusations of flamebaiting.

Well, since I was flamed, and my response wasn't a flamebait, I won't worry about being accused of it.

You know, if you're going to label posts as "flames" that quickly and easily, you are opening yourself up to accusations of flamebaiting.

Especially considering the tone of the original poster in the original post.

You are entitled to your opinion, "mate" :)


I just see a lot of people getting really angry and defensive.

Are you, perhaps, sitting inbetween a whole bunch of mirrors?

Well, since I was flamed, and my response wasn't a flamebait, I won't worry about being accused of it.
Your response to the alleged "flame" could not possibly constitute a flamebait since a flamebait is a posts which seeks to cause a flame. That is, the flamebait comes first and the flame comes second as a direct and intended result of the former. It was your original post which might warrant accusations of flamebaiting.

Personally i don't give the slightest crap about others, what interests me is my profit and my profit alone.

Depends on who's doing the suffering. For instance, I'm positively gleeful when abusive people of all sorts, ranging from the worst serial murderers to people who beat their spouses, get their comeuppance.

Especially considering the tone of the original poster in the original post.

Yeah, I'm glad to say that I think that opportunists who takes pleasure in people's suffering because it could make Bush look bad are monsters... I guess that notion is inflamatory to some.

What if someone said, "there's something wrong with you if it makes you happy that 6 million Jews died in concentration camps, just because it make Hitler look bad." I suppose that would be inflamatory as well? :D I think it's pretty sick either way, man.

Apparently (although, not surprisingly) certain people seem to be taking personal offense to that opinion. Well, I'm not going to apologize for it, so sorry, m'man.

I am pretty apathetic about everything. I don’t care who is in office. I just can’t make myself care about anything more than the tax dollars expended/waisted.

I agree it's pretty disgraceful. I am dismayed by suffering.


That's because you're a Democrat and/or liberal who also happens to be a civil person.

Yeah, I'm glad to say that I think that opportunists who takes pleasure in people's suffering because it could make Bush look bad are monsters... I guess that notion is inflamatory to some.

What if someone said, "there's something wrong with you if it makes you happy that 6 million Jews died in concentration camps, just because it make Hitler look bad." I suppose that would be inflamatory as well? :D I think it's pretty sick either way, man.

Apparently (although, not surprisingly) certain people seem to be taking personal offense to that opinion. Well, I'm not going to apologize for it, so sorry, m'man.
yes but you lumped 2 different kinds of things in together.

its wrong to delight in someone being hurt. its OK to delight in someone getting their comeuppance

for example. i can enjoy that mr delay is indicted even though it sucks for him. it would be wrong for me to be happy that he gets raped in the prison i hope he rots in.

If I had perpetrated these examples myself, I might be very glad of them. Proud, even. At current I have only a mild morbid fascination.

Yeah, I'm glad to say that I think that opportunists who takes pleasure in people's suffering because it could make Bush look bad are monsters... I guess that notion is inflamatory to some.

What if someone said, "there's something wrong with you if it makes you happy that 6 million Jews died in concentration camps, just because it make Hitler look bad." I suppose that would be inflamatory as well? I think it's pretty sick either way, man.

Apparently (although, not surprisingly) certain people seem to be taking personal offense to that opinion. Well, I'm not going to apologize for it, so sorry, m'man.
yes but you lumped 2 different kinds of things in together.

its wrong to delight in someone being hurt. its OK to delight in someone getting their comeuppance

for example. i can enjoy that mr delay is indicted even though it sucks for him. it would be wrong for me to be happy that he gets raped in the prison i hope he rots in.
The main problem is that he tried to draw a connection between liberals in general and a practice he refered to as monsterous when there is no evidence that liberals engage in the practice more often than conservatives.

Note that I am not accusing him of flamebaiting, but merely saying that he is opening himself up to those accusations.

Personally i don't give the slightest crap about others, what interests me is my profit and my profit alone.

Lovely attitude there, but I have to give you credit for having the guts to say it.
A lot of people think like this, they've just been trained to say the nice, polite thing.

C'mon, let's face it, when a disaster hits, who actually goes out there to help other people? If there's an accident in the street, who stops to check if there's anything you can do to help, if you can lend a mobile phone in case they don't have one, if you can help push the car off the road? Most people just drive around.
And that doesn't make them all nasty people. A lot of those people would be happy to help in other situations.

I'm shocked and saddened by what happened because of Katrina, but in a kind of numb "I don't know these people" way. I follow the story from a kind of morbid fascination (as I'm sure most of you guys do, too) - I'm really sorry this has to happen to real people, but I'm not personally helping them by finding out what happened. I'm finding out what happened for my own interest.

I'm certainly not taking glee in their suffering, but there is a bit of a "it's not my problem" attitude. Which is kind of sad.

I know it's unfair, but I can't help feeling resentment against the American attitude of "It's a disaster" if it happens in America, and kind of ignored if it happens elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, the Americans do a LOT of good work worldwide. They are always very reliable when it comes to supporting the Australian troops (and vice versa).
I just can't help remembering a comment one of my Indian friends made after 9/11. He said "Everyone cares about two buildings in America that got destroyed. I can hear bomb explosions from my house, and nobody even knows this is happening".
Not the average Americans fault, of course. Certainly not the fault of the people in New Orleans.
It's just hard to care, sometimes, when there's so much terrible things happening in the world. I really wish it was otherwise.

What is the point of this thread?

Oh, and from personal experience Brians Test is a person who likes to use emotional bludgeoning in arguments. Like the issue with Katrina, when I was trying to point out the failures in policy, he accused me of hurting/exploiting the victims. (this is an observation, not a criticism)

What is the point of this thread?

Oh, and from personal experience Brians Test is a person who likes to use emotional bludgeoning in arguments. Like the issue with Katrina, when I was trying to point out the failures in policy, he accused me of hurting/exploiting the victims. (this is an observation, not a criticism)

I'll second this observation.

However, I'm actually quite interested in this thread. It's telling me a lot about how people see their reasons for speaking against something, and exactly where the criticisms do fall. (nothing amazing that I couldn't have guessed, though)

What is the point of this thread?

Debating for the sake of disagreeing with someone???

The main problem is that he tried to draw a connection between liberals in general and a practice he refered to as monsterous when there is no evidence that liberals engage in the practice more often than conservatives.

Note that I am not accusing him of flamebaiting, but merely saying that he is opening himself up to those accusations.

Yeah, but in fairness to me, I noted in an earlier post in this thread that Conservatives would be just as likely to engage in that kind of behavior under different circumstances (i.e. I'm sure enough felt this way when Clinton was President).

The main problem is that he tried to draw a connection between liberals in general and a practice he refered to as monsterous when there is no evidence that liberals engage in the practice more often than conservatives.

Note that I am not accusing him of flamebaiting, but merely saying that he is opening himself up to those accusations.
well true.
and it seems he only wants to discuss the flame issue and not his original post

What is the point of this thread?

Oh, and from personal experience Brians Test is a person who likes to use emotional bludgeoning in arguments. Like the issue with Katrina, when I was trying to point out the failures in policy, he accused me of hurting/exploiting the victims. (this is an observation, not a criticism)

I was pretty upset over Katrina, so I apologize for any emotionally charged statements related to that.

Actually, I'm still kind of upset over it.

well true.
and it seems he only wants to discuss the flame issue and not his original post


Well, I don't think that statement is a fair one because most of the "discussion" has been personal attacks. C'est la vie :)

No.

I believe this whole problem stems from a lack of education and the ability to develop autonomous thought on ones own. All you see when you turn on the TV or even here in this forum is people bashing Bush. The only reason I can see is that they hate him so blindly that they wait for things to go wrong that they can blame on him. For this reason, tragedy makes them happy, and no, they do not look in the mirror or they simply ignore the reflection as they take the qualities they hate about themselves and project them outwards onto the world's biggest and easiest scapegoat. I suppose that is what we've come to. What does it say about us as a people when we can love the deaths of thousands so that we may critisize the President while doing nothing ourselves?

It certainly does not speak well.

I certainly do enjoy the suffering of others. As long as they deserve it.

Myself it depends on WHO it is, like many people I wish to die, or get wounded by massive paper cuts caused by those little pamphlets that people give out. anywho, I relishe any foes pain.

It seems to me that there are people who participate in these forums who are happy, even gleeful, when bad things happen under the Bush Administration's watch, or as a result of it's policies.

For example, there are definitely people who are happy to learn that the FEMA was slow to respond in New Orleans; that international intellegence was wrong about WMDs being in Iraq; that insurgents in Iraq are still killing civilians, police, and coalition soldiers; that Katrina and Rita-related losses will cost people jobs and slow the economy; that the stock market is stagnet; that inflation is up, etc.--pick your poison, every administration has problems and makes mistakes. What I see is a celebratory atmosphere when things go awry, and I don't understand it.

My question is twofold:

1. If you're one of those people, have you considered what kind of person that makes you?

2. If you're one of those people and you don't care what kind of person that makes you, what the heck is wrong with
you?
I'm very much a sadist, so yes.

1) Yes, I have. I'm a fine person, I think.
2) Nothing's wrong with me in that regard. I have a different set of morals and standards than most people. I'm also misanthropic.

I'm very much a sadist, so yes.

1) Yes, I have. I'm a fine person, I think.
2) Nothing's wrong with me in that regard. I have a different set of morals and standards than most people. I'm also misanthropic.

I hope to god you are being sarcastic, otherwise I do not know how you can look yourself in the mirror if you can be happy when people die, just to meet your own self-serving desires. Honestly, compassion is one of the very pillars of what makes us human, a value which you appear to lack. Also, condemning others to death for your own political satisfaction hardly qualifies as morals at all, not just a different set.