NationStates Jolt Archive

Black Americans are disproportionately impacted by the ramifications of abortion, as compared to their non-black counterparts. According to the most recently available data, black mothers end 30.2 of every 1,000 pregnancies in abortion--250% the rate of white mothers. http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031781347267

So even though blacks, as a whole, are impacted so much greater than non-blacks, black leaders (and their followers) seem to be completely ignoring the issue either way. Aside from the fact that I've never seen a black political or religious leader ever speak on the matter, I can't help but think about the one massive pro-life/pro-choice rally I attended in 2002 in Washington D.C. I went for the pro-life rally, obviously, to mark the Roe v. Wade anniversary by marching Washington to the Supreme Court (incidentally, I'd never seen such a freak show. Oddly enough, it actually made me understand the pro-abortion side better because I was like "these lunatics are the ones who agree with me?"--at least until we ran into the pro-choice supporters... they were even more so a bizarre looking/acting bunch. The whole experience was really bizarre, and I wouldn't go again, but I digress...) In an estimated crowd of 120,000 people, in Washington D.C., a city in which 60% of the populations claims black ancestry, I literally did not see a single black person present for either side during the entire course of the day. The only black people I saw on the streets were cops. This is not a statistical anomoly.

The fact is, liberals don't want black people thinking about abortion because if black people were to give abortion much thought they might realize that abortion, a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, has been very bad for African Americans.

A black person, genuinely concerned about the plight of blacks in this country, would have to recognize that they are losing 13 million votes every 30 years... enough to create an additional 20 black electoral votes and to create black majorities in an additional 40 congressional seats.

And liberals don't want black people hearing about those arguments white liberals have with white conservatives about abortion in which the white liberal eventually defends his pro-abortion position by saying, "Well, they'll just grow up poor and be criminals anyway."

This is the irony of it all--given that blacks voted for Al Gore by a ratio of about 10-to-1, if abortion was illegal, Bush wouldn't be President, and liberals wouldn't now be worried about who he's putting on the Supreme Court.

Why are blacks so removed from abortion as a political issue? No one can do anything more than speculate, but it sure seems to me that its because their leadership has voluntarily chosen to turn a blind eye.

Maybe I'm missing something, but perhaps people are more likely to abort kids that they're not going to be able to afford to feed or raise? I'm dubious that there's any sinister conspiracy at work here. If there was, the left would be urging for these kids to be born, for the politoical reasons you've mentioned.

Maybe I'm missing something, but perhaps people are more likely to abort kids that they're not going to be able to afford to feed or raise? I'm dubious that there's any sinister conspiracy at work here. If there was, the left would be urging for these kids to be born, for the politoical reasons you've mentioned.

But it would be a self-contradiction. I do see your point, but how else would you explain the complete absence of blacks from the dialogue?

they arent absent. i recall seeing some black thinker suggesting that abortion is genocide for the black race in america. i dont think they are mainstream

i guess black people arent interested in forcing women to bear children they dont want just to create future voters.

i guess black people arent interested in forcing women to bear children they dont want just to create future voters.

But I haven't seen any black leaders on the pro-choice side either. And as mentioned before, from my own experience, I've not seen, met, or known any blacks who are passionate about "abortion rights" like white pro-choice activists are. How would you explain that? Are you aware of any?

But it would be a self-contradiction. I do see your point, but how else would you explain the complete absence of blacks from the dialogue?

Yeah, that's pretty strange. You'd think that even if black leaders ignored the issue entirely, there would still be some blacks who cared enough about it to attend the rally. It's hard to imagine an entire group deciding to sidestep an issue as prevalent in today's politics, but that's what seems to be happening.

But it would be a self-contradiction. I do see your point, but how else would you explain the complete absence of blacks from the dialogue?
There possibly is an unpleasant ideological slant there, unless it's down to the fact (or possibly a fear) that a lot of the black Liberal mouthpieces are going to have an aversion to birth control for religious reasons.

There possibly is an unpleasant ideological slant there, unless it's down to the fact (or possibly a fear) that a lot of the black Liberal mouthpieces are going to have an aversion to birth control for religious reasons.

I find it hard to see liberals avoiding something due to religious reasons...

I would submit that IMHO unwanted children or children whose would be parents (or just mom - sadly often the case, especially for the poor, black or white or whatever) cannot afford to raise them would harm any community more than help it if one is looking at things from a purely pragmatic perspective.

- Chaghatai of The Empire of The Everlasting Sky

The fact is, liberals don't want black people thinking about abortion because if black people were to give abortion much thought they might realize that abortion, a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, has been very bad for African Americans.



I'm sorry, can you explain how exactly abortion has been bad to Amerinan blacks?



This is the irony of it all--given that blacks voted for Al Gore by a ratio of about 10-to-1, if abortion was illegal, Bush wouldn't be President, and liberals wouldn't now be worried about who he's putting on the Supreme Court.



First: :confused: Why wouldn't Bush be president?
Second: :confused: Are you saying that we should have completely given up on the abortion issue (a moral point for us, too) to fix the election (a highly political action)?


And even further, is -just your- expierience at -just one- rally your entire basis for the conclusion that blacks don't care? I would be very interested to see some statistics on this, seeing as it is such an outlandish assumption that an entire race as a whole chooses to remain neutral on a topic that you have proven affects them so much. This seems to be another random liberal attack conspiracy theory.

As for why are there not more (or visably more) black pro-choice activists...I think black activists in general have bigger fish to fry, that is to say there are other issues that impact the black community more seriously than weather or not abortion is legal, Insomuch as it being legal is a good thing to reduce poverty, scary as the times are, Roe v Wade is still strong, so it doesn't really need alot of help. And insomuch as religious black folks may oppose abortion for moral reasons, again there are other issues more demanding of their time that do not require possibly alianating their traitional political allies in the white community who are generally on the left

- Chaghatai of The Empire of The Everlasting Sky

/generalizations aren't always right
//but they can be great for gambling

Original Post/signed.


The social conditions controlled by the government in the African American communities are systematically anti-family. There is a reason that 70% of African American children are born out of wedlock, when the national average of Caucasian and Hispanic and Asian children born out of wedlock is less than half of that.

But it would be a self-contradiction. I do see your point, but how else would you explain the complete absence of blacks from the dialogue?
LOL I shouldn't start on the Democrats' liberalism and its pseudo-diversity

Yeah, that's pretty strange. You'd think that even if black leaders ignored the issue entirely, there would still be some blacks who cared enough about it to attend the rally. It's hard to imagine an entire group deciding to sidestep an issue as prevalent in today's politics, but that's what seems to be happening.

Maybe they're too busy at rallies to keep people from disproportionately throwing them in jail, to decrease their dropout rates or single parent homes or trying to get people to stop dragging them down the street behind cars because they don't like their skin color. Perhaps abortion is a big issue relative to the issues white people face and not a big issue compared to the issues black people face.

Isn't it mostly the lower income families that have the most children to begin with? I know there's specific slang for two adults working with half a million dollar income and no children. African Americans do tend to be liberal in their voting trends, so I don't see how stoping them from voting impacts liberals positively. Just because there are fewer occurances of abortion among African Americans doesn't mean they are hardcore pro-life for religious reasons. It might simply be a cultural difference when handling pregnancy. It might be worth investigation, be the worthy subject of an article or two, but it seems to me less likely to be a conspiracy of those crazy liberals

According to Department of Justice Statistics, 1993-2001, 94 percent of murdered blacks were murdered by blacks.

There's the same percentage when you look at violent crime (murder, rape, armed robbery, aggravated assault).

So, blacks are killing each other.

In the US, 46 percent of ALL murder victims are black. 53 percent of all firearm murders are black. And only 12 percent of the population is black.

A rather skewed proportion - and I'm not looking at incarceration rates because some wag will say the courts are biased.

The coroner, however, is not. If this appalling death rate among blacks were due to white mobs, there would be cries of genocide.

As it is, they are busily, aggressively, and effectively killing themselves.

The mere fact that you possess a firearm statistically does not constitute much of an increase in risk if you are white. And that's not a racist statement - it's the truth.

i don't see how being forced to raise an accidentally conceived child would be good for anyone, of any heritage. i also don't like the assumption that the best thing for any racial group is to maintain itself as distinct from all other groups. we should be working to blend together better as one society, rather than maintaining barriers between different groups of people.

I find it hard to see liberals avoiding something due to religious reasons...

One can't be religious and a liberal? :confused:

One can't be religious and a liberal? :confused:

People keep telling me I can't be a gun-toting redneck, a Pentacostal Christian, a former military person who votes Republican, and have an openly gay son, and have my wife and I with an open marriage.

The fact is, liberals don't want black people thinking about abortion because if black people were to give abortion much thought they might realize that abortion, a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, has been very bad for African Americans.
Abortion has only been bad for blacks if you are from a pro-life viewpoint. Why is abortion not also "bad" for white people? White mothers have abortions.

Why are blacks so removed from abortion as a political issue?
Because it is not very important.

As it is, they are busily, aggressively, and effectively killing themselves.

What has this got to do with abortion?

What has this got to do with abortion?

Everything. If some outside group were killing them, there would be an outcry of "injustice!"

As it is, the very people who are complaining about being victimized by a hypothetical statement on abortion are killing each other right now.

What has this got to do with abortion?

Umm, it is another method with which they kill themselves?

Abortion has only been bad for blacks if you are from a pro-life viewpoint. Why is abortion not also "bad" for white people? White mothers have abortions.

Well, as previously pointed out, there are about five black babies aborted for every two white babies in the United States. If you're a person concerned about the political clout of your ethnic group, you'd want more of your group around, since this is a Republic form of government and all. I can't think of a minority group concerned about racial injustices wishing that there were fewer of them around, can you?

This needs explaining? :rolleyes:


Because it is not very important.

But whites are passionate about it and they're not affected nearly as much, politically or otherwise. Since blacks are more-so affected, why aren't they involved in the dialogue? That's the point of this thread.

Well, as previously pointed out, there are about five black babies aborted for every two white babies in the United States. If you're a person concerned about the political clout of your ethnic group, you'd want more of your group around, since this is a Republic form of government and all. I can't think of a minority group concerned about racial injustices wishing that there were fewer of them around, can you?

This needs explaining? :rolleyes:

You hear that, you silly black people, if you don't have twelve children a peice, you are doing a disservice to the cause. Obviously, being able to afford to raise them and having the time to spend with them isn't important. Just produce as many children as possible and your causes will be advanced by doing so. Unless, of course, your cause is to increase your economic circumstances and have well-raised and eductated children. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, can you explain how exactly abortion has been bad to Amerinan blacks?

I'm sorry, I thought I just did...


First: :confused:

obviously...

Why wouldn't Bush be president?

because if blacks continued the voting trend that they have since 1964, there would be a couple of extra million votes for the Democratic candidate in 2000. Unless they were all scared of living in political toss-up states, Florida would have easily gone to Gore.

Second: :confused: Are you saying that we should have completely given up on the abortion issue (a moral point for us, too) to fix the election (a highly political action)?

I was more looking for the insight of others than trying to "say" anything. You do seem to be at odds with yourselves, though.


And even further, is -just your- expierience at -just one- rally your entire basis for the conclusion that blacks don't care?

It's based on the totality of my observations, the march being the most obvious example of the disparity. It makes sense that if I'm in a group of 20, 50, or even 100 people, there might not be any blacks just out of pure coincidence. But 120,000? I literally did not see a single black person on either side. You couldn't find a whiter crowd in Northern Scandinavia.

I would be very interested to see some statistics on this,

I would to, but no statistics are available on the number of blacks active in the abortion issue. If you're talking about statistics of abortions by race, that's why I included the initial link.

seeing as it is such an outlandish assumption

If it's so outlandish, it should be easy to disprove, right?

that an entire race as a whole

not all blacks, but darn close to it.

chooses to remain neutral on a topic that you have proven affects them so much. This seems to be another random liberal attack conspiracy theory.

I see why you say that, but I'm not suggesting it's a conspiracy; just that it's being ignored.

he got this from a fox news pundit i saw a bit of it myself

1st off, I must say that I am 100% pro CHOICE. I dislike abortion as a proceedure and concept, but it's not my business to regulate it.

One of the more interesting bits that people forget, and what I find amazing is that Margaret Sanger was an openly racist eugenicisist and categorically advanced the idea of the elimination of "undesirables" through abortion - yet people either are willfully ignorant of this fact or actively attempt to suppress the data.

Steven Levitt (freakonomics.com) discusses the "toll" of abortion on the Black Community by showing in stark detail how there was a precipitous and statistically causal decline in violent crime exactly 15 years after Roe v Wade. Simply, Urban Poor babies - those most prone to crime in their teen years - were simply not being born. (Somthing Sanger predicted BTW...)

But yeah. the Abortion Debate does seem to be more about White Liberal Women Chanting than Aborting... The whole abortion thing is a strange sociodynamic with weird consequences - both intended and unintended.

For some reason, they get more abortions. They shoot each other often. And they have trouble in school - oddly, other ethnic and racial groups that are NOT white don't seem to have the same trouble.

20% of Seniors Flunk High School Graduation Exam
# Nearly 100,000 statewide are in jeopardy of not earning diplomas, a report says. They have until June to pass the two-part, two-day test.

By Duke Helfand, Times Staff Writer

Nearly 100,000 California 12th graders — or about 20% of this year's senior class — have failed the state's graduation exam, potentially jeopardizing their chances of earning diplomas, according to the most definitive report on the mandatory test, released Friday.

Students in the class of 2006, the first group to face the graduation requirement, must pass both the English and math sections of the test by June.

ADVERTISEMENT
The exit exam — which has come under criticism by some educators, legislators and civil rights advocates — is geared to an eighth-grade level in math and to ninth- and 10th-grade levels in English.

But the report by the Virginia-based Human Resources Research Organization showed that tens of thousands of students, particularly those in special education and others who speak English as a second language, may fail the test by the end of their senior year despite remedial classes, after-school tutoring and other academic help.

Teachers, according to the report, said that many students arrive unprepared and unmotivated for their high school courses and that their grades often reflect poor attendance and low parental involvement.

The group reviewed the test results as part of a report ordered by the Legislature when it instituted the exit exam several years ago.

Among its findings: 63% of African Americans and 68% of Latinos in the class of 2006 have passed both parts of the exam.

By comparison, 89% of Asians and 90% of whites have passed.

The report recommended that the state keep the exam but consider several alternatives for students who can't pass.

Among its findings: 63% of African Americans and 68% of Latinos in the class of 2006 have passed both parts of the exam.

By comparison, 89% of Asians and 90% of whites have passed.

I'd wager that this example has more to do with socio-economic class/situation than it does race. White Americans and Asian Americans are more likely than not to be middle class or affluent. On the other hand, a disproportionate percentage of African Americans and Latinos live in poverty and attend poorer school systems, who have fewer resources and are not as well-equipped to effectively teach as wealthier or private school systems.

The fact is, liberals don't want black people thinking about abortion because if black people were to give abortion much thought they might realize that abortion, a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, has been very bad for African Americans.

Meaning what? That statistically speaking more of them choose to have it done?

And this is some kind of injustice being perpetrated upon them in your little corner of the universe?

A black person, genuinely concerned about the plight of blacks in this country, would have to recognize that they are losing 13 million votes every 30 years...

You have got to be kidding me...

How about you apply the same argument to the evils of abstinence?

And how the hell do you go from that rather ridiculous point to the even more absurd claim that this is a Liberal goal... when you yourself point out that black voting demographics heavily favor liberals???

What bizarre alternate reality did this post originate in?

According to Department of Justice Statistics, 1993-2001, 94 percent of murdered blacks were murdered by blacks.

There's the same percentage when you look at violent crime (murder, rape, armed robbery, aggravated assault).

So, blacks are killing each other.

In the US, 46 percent of ALL murder victims are black. 53 percent of all firearm murders are black. And only 12 percent of the population is black.

A rather skewed proportion - and I'm not looking at incarceration rates because some wag will say the courts are biased.

The coroner, however, is not. If this appalling death rate among blacks were due to white mobs, there would be cries of genocide.

As it is, they are busily, aggressively, and effectively killing themselves.

The mere fact that you possess a firearm statistically does not constitute much of an increase in risk if you are white. And that's not a racist statement - it's the truth.


It's their socio-economic position. There really isn't anything that can be done about it over anything resembling a short time period, but it's a direct result of what happened from 150 to 100 years ago.

When the slaves were emancipated, a large chunk of them moved north to seek their fortunes. During this time, that meant moving into an industrial city and getting a job as an unskilled laborer. They shared this position with similarly impovershed white workers, so not much could be said about it then.

However, during the post-war era of the 1940's and 1950's, something called "The Great White Flight" happened, where most inner-city white families fled their old homes and took up residence in the new suburbs that were popping up all over the place due to things like the GI Bill and people like Mr Levit.

This left a large portion of the nation's blacks stuck in the inner cities that had turned into ghettos during the Gilded Age and subsequent eras. Stuck in a cycle of poverty, unable to escape, there isn't much that could be done.

Now, there is a direct causal link between poverty and crime. Justifiable or not, it's true -- go take a few classes on sociology and law.

Ok, I'm going to say something now that the more PC of society would take great offense in: an inproportionate majority of the USA's blacks are below the poverty line, living in ghettos that haven't been "The Good side of town" for almost a 100 years.

Thus, the problem. No one living today is really to blame for these statistics, it's all the partial-fault of people who lived a century ago and were our grandparent's grandparents. A lot of it is due to chance, of course, and the root cause goes back much further and is much more complex, but overall it's because of poor-handling of the newly freed slaves.

It's their socio-economic position. There really isn't anything that can be done about it over anything resembling a short time period, but it's a direct result of what happened from 150 to 100 years ago.

When the slaves were emancipated, a large chunk of them moved north to seek their fortunes. During this time, that meant moving into an industrial city and getting a job as an unskilled laborer. They shared this position with similarly impovershed white workers, so not much could be said about it then.

However, during the post-war era of the 1940's and 1950's, something called "The Great White Flight" happened, where most inner-city white families fled their old homes and took up residence in the new suburbs that were popping up all over the place due to things like the GI Bill and people like Mr Levit. :confused: Explain please?

This left a large portion of the nation's blacks stuck in the inner cities that had turned into ghettos during the Gilded Age and subsequent eras. And reinforced by the warehousing and institutionalized cash support of the urban poor by LBJ's "Great Society", "Urban Renewal" and other heroic assaults in the "War on Poverty" :rolleyes: Stuck in a cycle of poverty, unable to escape, there isn't much that could be done.

Now, there is a direct causal link between poverty and crime. Justifiable or not, it's true -- go take a few classes on sociology and law.

Ok, I'm going to say something now that the more PC of society would take great offense in: an inproportionate majority of the USA's blacks are below the poverty line, living in ghettos that haven't been "The Good side of town" for almost a 100 years.Even with and after all the tonnes of money poured into it by "Compassionate" Politicians...
Thus, the problem. No one living today is really to blame for these statistics, it's all the partial-fault of people who lived a century ago and were our grandparent's grandparents.I'd say half a century ago or less... A lot of it is due to chance, of course, and the root cause goes back much further and is much more complex, but overall it's because of poor-handling of the newly freed slaves.Not to mention the institutionalized destruction of the extended family, the emphasis on government support rather than personal responsibility, the criminialization and rise of the urban drug trade, the institutionalized disrespect for education and other trappings of "white" society, etc.

:confused: Explain please?

Do you know how many "Levittown"s there are in America? Look up the history of the man. It's quite interesting, and he was a good man all around, but his business was part of the great white flight (though he never intended it to be).

And reinforced by the warehousing and institutionalized cash support of the urban poor by LBJ's "Great Society", "Urban Renewal" and other heroic assaults in the "War on Poverty"

In America, we think we can wage war on states of being. Aren't we awesome?

=P

Any program with the words "War on" included in it is guarenteed to be a dismal failure that manages to linger for fifty years or so after it should have died.

:rolleyes: Even with and after all the tonnes of money poured into it by "Compassionate" Politicians...

Throw money at the problem. No getting your hands dirty and you look good for election season.

*Sigh*

Sometimes I hate democracy because of the politicians it makes necessary.

I'd say half a century ago or less... Not to mention the institutionalized destruction of the extended family, the emphasis on government support rather than personal responsibility, the criminialization and rise of the urban drug trade, the institutionalized disrespect for education and other trappings of "white" society, etc.

Nope, it actually has its real roots centuries and centuries back, but the last major causes of the problem lie during the Reconstruction era and the absolutely shitty job done therein. Everything done since then has only perpetuated the problem, not helped create it.

And the government hasn't been about "personal responsibility" since the days of Teddy and "rugged individualism".

Sometimes I feel like the American people died off (or at least became increasingly rare) at the beginning of the 20th century.

The issue (or non-issue) of abortion is problematic; abortion is a medical procedure (like tonsilectomy, apendectomy) that concerns the patient and her physician. The fact that it has become a political issue in the USA speaks volumes about the ability of unscrupulous politicians to frame the political debate. I will be more sympathetic to the anti-abortionists when they start speaking against the death penalty and in favor of adequate funding of schools and social services, etc.

I would say that black people having abortions more often is a good thing.

Case in point: There is strong statistical evidence showing abortion leads to lower crime rate.

Black people have a bad, and unwarranted in general, stereotype of being criminals.

If these abortions are lowering the number of criminals, especially for black people, then thats one step closer to getting rid of these stereotypes.

I fail to see how its harming blacks.

I would say that black people having abortions more often is a good thing.

Case in point: There is strong statistical evidence showing abortion leads to lower crime rate.

Black people have a bad, and unwarranted in general, stereotype of being criminals.

If these abortions are lowering the number of criminals, especially for black people, then thats one step closer to getting rid of these stereotypes.

I fail to see how its harming blacks.

WTH kind of post is that? They are too likely to have criminal children so they are better off not having children at all :confused: For crying out loud, You might as well just come out and say it in the open so we all know what you are talking about... in your opinion, the only 'good' African American is a dead African American :rolleyes:

WTH kind of post is that? They are too likely to have criminal children so they are better off not having children at all :confused: For crying out loud, You might as well just come out and say it in the open so we all know what you are talking about... in your opinion, the only 'good' African American is a dead African American :rolleyes:

Uhm, no.

Again, I'm saying there is factual evidence that abortion has led to lower crime rates, ergo, aborted children were ones who would have, on average, been more likely to be criminals.

My point is that black people having more abortions, in this context, is good for them, because with less criminals who are black, it helps them escape the negative stereotypes of black people being criminals, etc. While it doesn't abolish those thoughts by any means, it helps.

You completely didn't understand my post, or at least as far as I could tell. I could hardly make sense of what you wrote.

Uhm, no.

Again, I'm saying there is factual evidence that abortion has led to lower crime rates, ergo, aborted children were ones who would have, on average, been more likely to be criminals.

*blah blah blah, snip more racist crap* .

No, you just used more words to say it, again. In your opinion an aborted African American is an aborted criminal ... bigot.

No, you just used more words to say it, again. In your opinion an aborted African American is an aborted criminal ... bigot.

No, in my opinion, an aborted african american is not an aborted criminal. You want to quote where I said, or implied this? I am simply saying that aborted babies would be more commonly criminals than non aborted ones. Not all, but a larger percent.

Now, abortion leads to a lower percent of criminals all around. This is especially true for blacks, assuming the 250% number is true. I fail to see where I am saying black people are criminals. Please though, show me where I have said such.

And Ad Hominem attacks aren't appreciated on this forum.

No, in my opinion, an aborted african american is not an aborted criminal. You want to quote where I said, or implied this?

Sure, We don't even have to look for a different post, you've said it again for a third time right here in this post...


I am simply saying that aborted babies would be more commonly criminals than non aborted ones. Not all, but a larger percent.

Prove it, bigot.

Now, abortion leads to a lower percent of criminals all around. This is especially true for blacks, assuming the 250% number is true. I fail to see where I am saying black people are criminals. Please though, show me where I have said such.

And Ad Hominem attacks aren't appreciated on this forum.

I don't need ad hominem attacks, you just keep saying it over and over again. The African American who aborts is most likely aborting a criminal... you are so racist you don't even understand the accusation. In your opinion, the less black there are, the less criminals there are.

Let's reverse it. You say, black women who choose to have abortions now are more likely to have criminal children if they choose not to have an abortion ... supremacist bigot.

Sure, We don't even have to look for a different post, you've said it again for a third time right here in this post...



Prove it, bigot.



I don't need ad hominem attacks, you just keep saying it over and over again. The African American who aborts is most likely aborting a criminal... you are so racist you don't even understand the accusation. In your opinion, the less black there are, the less criminals there are.

Let's reverse it. You say, black women who choose to have abortions now are more likely to have criminal children if they choose not to have an abortion ... supremacist bigot.

A. http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

B. I'm not saying a black person aborted is most likely a criminal, I'm saying those who are aborted would more likely be a criminal, than ones who wouldn't be aborted, as if the mother didn't have the chance. Its the same way with white people. I don't believe black people correlate to criminals. But there is statistical proof, above, which shows that the people who are aborted were more likely to be criminals.

C. Its not racist, because its the same way for White people. The conditions aborted children would have gone through typically would lead to more likely criminal behavior, etc.

A. http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

B. I'm not saying a black person aborted is most likely a criminal, I'm saying those who are aborted would more likely be a criminal, than ones who wouldn't be aborted, as if the mother didn't have the chance. Its the same way with white people. I don't believe black people correlate to criminals. But there is statistical proof, above, which shows that the people who are aborted were more likely to be criminals.

C. Its not racist, because its the same way for White people. The conditions aborted children would have gone through typically would lead to more likely criminal behavior, etc.

The two dork bigots who wrote that racist crap, Donohue and Levitt, say that poor women and teenage girls are "substantially more likely" to have abortions, and children born to such mothers are supposed to have a higher than normal probability of becoming adults who commit crimes between the ages of 18 and 24.

However, your authors then go beyond even those basic anti-poor assumptions and carry their bigoted theory of abortion across racial boundaries. In their 'guestimation' abortion has not been uniformly used by all races at all and since abortion has had only modest effects on the fertility of white women, but large reductions in teen fertility and teen out-of-wedlock fertility among blacks (what a crock of shit) they think only highly likely black criminals are being aborted.

Donohue and Levitt come to the racist conclusion against blacks like the Nazi's said about Jews in Germany, that, "Given that homicide rates of black youths are roughly nine times higher than those of white youths, racial differences in the fertility effects of abortion are likely to translate into greater homicide reductions." In other words, by reducing the number of black babies born in the United States, abortion has lowered the crime rate."

Racist, KKK, Nazi supremacist bigoted crap...

The two dork bigots who wrote that racist crap, Donohue and Levitt, say that poor women and teenage girls are "substantially more likely" to have abortions, and children born to such mothers are supposed to have a higher than normal probability of becoming adults who commit crimes between the ages of 18 and 24.

However, your authors then go beyond even those basic anti-poor assumptions and carry their bigoted theory of abortion across racial boundaries. In their 'guestimation' abortion has not been uniformly used by all races at all and since abortion has had only modest effects on the fertility of white women, but large reductions in teen fertility and teen out-of-wedlock fertility among blacks (what a crock of shit) they think only highly likely black criminals are being aborted.

Donohue and Levitt come to the racist conclusion against blacks like the Nazi's said about Jews in Germany, that, "Given that homicide rates of black youths are roughly nine times higher than those of white youths, racial differences in the fertility effects of abortion are likely to translate into greater homicide reductions." In other words, by reducing the number of black babies born in the United States, abortion has lowered the crime rate."

Racist, KKK, Nazi supremacist bigoted crap...

Instead of just crying racism, you could disprove any of this. Or try.

Edit: http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

Abortion Statistics - Demographics

* Age - The majority of women getting an abortion are young. 52% are younger than 25 years old and 19% are teenagers. The abortion rate is highest for those women aged 18 to 19 (56 per 1,000 in 1992.)
* Marriage - 51% of women who are unmarried when they become pregnant will receive an abortion. Unmarried women are 6 times more likely than married women to have an abortion. 67% of abortions are from women who have never been married.
* Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.

So people at the lower end of the economic, and age scale are having more abortions. So are black people, three times more than whites.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Racial differences exist, with blacks disproportionately represented among homicide victims and offenders

Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002

Blacks were 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2002


Lets look at this. Black people commit more crime than white people, on average. Aborted children were more likely to be criminals, on average, than non aborted children. Black people have more abortions than whites.

Based on these three assumptions, it can be infered that:

Black aborted children, as from Roe V. Wade to current, have lowered the crime rate on average by being aborted.

This is also true of White people. However, its of larger signifigance for blacks, as both black people are 3 times more likely to get an abortion, and more likely to commit crime.

So, going back to my first claim, abortion should help blacks. With less crime from blacks, with the average going down by pre-emptively aborting a number of would be criminals(not done intentionally, nor do I suggest such). This helps the image that black people commit more crime, or that black people are all criminals.

You know, maybe the two of you ought to just walk away from this for a few and cool down.

I agree Nazz, I have read the last page of posts and can't understand any of it.
You two are getting so angry that you are getting your arguments all jumbled up.

I agree Nazz, I have read the last page of posts and can't understand any of it.
You two are getting so angry that you are getting your arguments all jumbled up.

I know perfectly what I'm saying, and I believe my last post summed up most of my train of thought.

Bad for blacks? Hell, it's been bad for the very progressives who champion it, as they're the ones getting abortions. Six million votes would have swung both the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections, and the imbalance grows exponentially the longer it continues.

And that, my friends, is why the Republicans will never do anything substantive about abortion.

Oh, sure, they'll stomp and shout, they'll organize rallies, they'll hack at the fringe (teens, father-contested, etc.), but at the end of the day it's all politics to them, and more-or-less legal abortion is the best thing that could possibly have happened to the GOP.

Ironic, isn't it? Making abortion illegal would serve to replenish the numbers of the progressives who made it legal, and the cycle begins anew.

Hey, and had I read the first post, I'd have seen that this was the point anyways. Silly me. :D

---

Hey, and here's a fun fact: the first law limiting -- not outlawing but just limiting -- abortion in the US didn't hit the books until 1821. The current pro-life movement is literally to the right of the Puritans. The more you know...

---

Back on topic, it's possible that abortion just isn't a big deal to the African-American population either way. Very few societies in the history of humanity have made a big deal of it, despite its existence in nearly every culture studied, so it would hardly be surprising.

HUH???
Ok, I follow you that blacks are the group getting the most abortions. I also follow you that there doesn't seem to be the outcry for or against from the community as there is in the white community (something I place more towards economics, as blacks disporpotionally are poor and problably don't have the resources to travel to protest all day). But where the hell does the liberal part come in?

Uhm, no.

Again, I'm saying there is factual evidence that abortion has led to lower crime rates, ergo, aborted children were ones who would have, on average, been more likely to be criminals.

Or... and this is just throwing a possibility out there... the lowered birth rate led to less population pressures and a better standard of living for parents who had to support less children on thier limited incomes, and THAT led to a lowered crime rate.

Just maybe.

Unless you're really married to the idea that certain children are destined from birth to be criminals. :rolleyes:

In your opinion, the less black there are, the less criminals there are.

Let's reverse it. You say, black women who choose to have abortions now are more likely to have criminal children if they choose not to have an abortion ... supremacist bigot.
It's only supremacist if the higher incidence of criminality among black people is attributed to some "deficiency" in the black race. I think that it's rather attributable to the fact that black people have had such trouble getting out of poverty thanks to institutionalised racism in the past.

Sad to say, it is statistically true that black people are more likely to be criminals.
According to Department of Justice Statistics, 1993-2001, 94 percent of murdered blacks were murdered by blacks.

There's the same percentage when you look at violent crime (murder, rape, armed robbery, aggravated assault).

So, blacks are killing each other.

In the US, 46 percent of ALL murder victims are black. 53 percent of all firearm murders are black. And only 12 percent of the population is black.


In other words, by reducing the number of black babies born in the United States, abortion has lowered the crime rate."

Racist, KKK, Nazi supremacist bigoted crap...
It's true and can be statistically proven. Stop being politically correct just because it favours your viewpoint.

Bad for blacks? Hell, it's been bad for the very progressives who champion it, as they're the ones getting abortions. Six million votes would have swung both the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections, and the imbalance grows exponentially the longer it continues.

And that, my friends, is why the Republicans will never do anything substantive about abortion.

Oh, sure, they'll stomp and shout, they'll organize rallies, they'll hack at the fringe (teens, father-contested, etc.), but at the end of the day it's all politics to them, and more-or-less legal abortion is the best thing that could possibly have happened to the GOP.
Except that being liberal/progressive is not genetic.

It's only supremacist if the higher incidence of criminality among black people is attributed to some "deficiency" in the black race. I think that it's rather attributable to the fact that black people have had such trouble getting out of poverty thanks to institutionalised racism in the past.

I'm not saying it's genetic. If I had to guess, I'd say it was something in their socialization structure within their group.

Asians were severely discriminated against in the US (there were even laws institutionalizing this up until the middle of the 20th century). It made it easy to throw the Japanese into concentration camps in the US during WW II. And I, being part Korean, was subjected to racism for most of my youth.

So explain to me once again, why Asians seem to do so well getting out of poverty, scoring high on tests, and getting into good schools, and getting good jobs, and staying out of trouble, even when their parents don't speak English, and there are no prominent Asian role models, when blacks can't do the same?

Explain, please.

I don't need ad hominem attacks, you just keep saying it over and over again.

You say, black women who choose to have abortions now are more likely to have criminal children if they choose not to have an abortion ... supremacist bigot.

Racist, KKK, Nazi supremacist bigoted crap...
"Your argument is crap because you are a bigot" is in fact the very definition of ad hominem, Greenlander. You have multiple warnings for this, and our patience is not infinite. Knock it off.

"Your argument is crap because you are a bigot" is in fact the very definition of ad hominem, Greenlander. You have multiple warnings for this, and our patience is not infinite. Knock it off.

Telling someone that 'statistically' speaking, your baby was likely to be a criminal because you aborted it and you are black IS a racist argument.

Telling someone that 'statistically' speaking, your baby was likely to be a criminal because you aborted it and you are black IS a racist argument.

See http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt

A study of firearms related violent crime from 1993 to 2001.

* Firearm violence rates for blacks age 12 or older (8.4
per 1,000 blacks) were
40% higher than rates for Hispanics (6.0)
200% higher than rates for whites (2.8 per 1,000).

* Blacks were about 9 times more likely than whites to be
murdered with a firearm.

* On average black victims of firearm violence were 3
years younger than white victims -- 29 versus 32.

* From 1993 through 2001 blacks accounted for 46% of
homicide victims and 54% of victims of firearm homicide but
12% of the U.S. population.

And consider that 94 percent of the time, the black victim is being victimized by a black person.

So, it is a statistical FACT that blacks are more violent, engage in more violent crime, and are victims of violent crime far out of proportion to their numbers. It is not racist to say so.

It does bring up the question of "Why?" Which remains to be answered.

It does bring up the question of "Why?" Which remains to be answered.

Fine

So start asking why poverty and racism oppress some Americans into a statistically higher crime rates and quit saying that aborted blacks are aborted criminals.

Fine

So start asking why poverty and racism oppress some Americans into a statistically higher crime rates and quit saying that aborted blacks are aborted criminals.

If you read back, you'll find that I asked Why is it that other racial groups who are also victims of racism (institutionalized and legal racism in the case of Asians, historically), and who don't speak English as their original native language, and who arrived here in the US with little or no money, and who were taken advantage of by whites on arrival, don't have the level of violent crime, have much higher test scores than blacks, have higher incomes than blacks, are less likely to end up in poverty than blacks, are more likely to own property than blacks - I'm talking about Asians.

So, why are the Asians doing so well? I hear they don't have any famous role models, so how did they do it? They are portrayed, generally, in a stereotypical and odd way on TV and in movies. There are few, if any, major sports stars who are Asian. Few if any major news anchors.

Eh?

Still want to say that it's white people's fault? Or should blacks accept some responsibility for their own plight?

If you read back, you'll find that I asked Why is it that other racial groups who are also victims of racism (institutionalized and legal racism in the case of Asians, historically), and who don't speak English as their original native language, and who arrived here in the US with little or no money, and who were taken advantage of by whites on arrival, don't have the level of violent crime, have much higher test scores than blacks, have higher incomes than blacks, are less likely to end up in poverty than blacks, are more likely to own property than blacks - I'm talking about Asians.

So, why are the Asians doing so well? I hear they don't have any famous role models, so how did they do it? They are portrayed, generally, in a stereotypical and odd way on TV and in movies. There are few, if any, major sports stars who are Asian. Few if any major news anchors.

Eh?

Still want to say that it's white people's fault? Or should blacks accept some responsibility for their own plight?

How about not all racism is equal? When you can show that the majority of Asians arrived under ownership of white people, then you might have a case. When you can show that view that white have and have always had of black is similar or the same as the view white people have of Asians, then you might have a case. Right now. You're really not even close.

If you read back, you'll find that I asked Why is it that other racial groups who are also victims of racism (institutionalized and legal racism in the case of Asians, historically), and who don't speak English as their original native language, and who arrived here in the US with little or no money, and who were taken advantage of by whites on arrival, don't have the level of violent crime, have much higher test scores than blacks, have higher incomes than blacks, are less likely to end up in poverty than blacks, are more likely to own property than blacks - I'm talking about Asians.

So, why are the Asians doing so well? I hear they don't have any famous role models, so how did they do it? They are portrayed, generally, in a stereotypical and odd way on TV and in movies. There are few, if any, major sports stars who are Asian. Few if any major news anchors.

Eh?

Still want to say that it's white people's fault? Or should blacks accept some responsibility for their own plight?

Which parts of your arguments above do you think segregates people by their race? (answer: all of them)

In which parts of your racial comparison do you summarize individuals into racial groups when you say that 'Asians' are doing so well' and blacks should accept some responsibility for their own plight?

Now lets envision a young Asian American man hearing that and is happy and encouraged to continue his racial hatred of black men and continues in his street gang… And lets envision a young African American man attending community college and he hears your claims and knows that you've already pre-judged him. And worse yet, he is told that your argument isn’t even ‘racist.’ And he is told that pointing out your racist argument is an ad-hominine attack here because ‘you’ used statistics to prove the racial short-coming of his genetic heritage... :rolleyes:

If you live in Washington DC, Atlanta, Detroit or Chicago, you live with crime, period, end of story, it doesn't matter what race you are.

Let's 'statistically' prove that the decline of dung-beetle population directly correlates with global warming.... Just because I can show statistics to support the claim doesn't make it true.

Do you know how many "Levittown"s there are in America? Look up the history of the man. It's quite interesting, and he was a good man all around, but his business was part of the great white flight (though he never intended it to be).Ahh. I thought you were making a comment about Steven Levitt, the modern author of "Freakonomics"
<Snip> And the government hasn't been about "personal responsibility" since the days of Teddy and "rugged individualism".

Sometimes I feel like the American people died off (or at least became increasingly rare) at the beginning of the 20th century.
Amen.

So start asking why poverty and racism oppress some Americans into a statistically higher crime rates and quit saying that aborted blacks are aborted criminals.
No one is saying that - least of all Levitt/Donahue. Levitt shows rather conclusively that, while there is sufficient evidence to prove causality between Roe v. Wade and the decrease in crime statistics 15 years later, he also says that the economics of "needing" 1M+ abortions to "get" a decrease of 100,000 violent crimes is a very steep price. (assuming that there is only 1 crime per perpertrator, then there were 900,000+ "unnecessary" abortions)

Economic theory is all about causality and pure math. Bigotry has nothing to do with it.

http://www.freakonomics.com/ch4.php

Let's 'statistically' prove that the decline of dung-beetle population directly correlates with global warming.... Just because I can show statistics to support the claim doesn't make it true.

If it's a decade long study by hundreds of statisticians, it most certainly is true.

Blacks are more likely to have abortions.
Blacks are more likely to engage in violent crime.
Blacks are more likely to commit murder.
Blacks are more likely to be incarcerated.
Blacks are more likely to be victims of murder.

And I'm not saying that about any particular individual - as you seem to want to imply, so I haven't made a single ad hominem.

What I want to know is why Asians, as a non-white race, are doing so well?

After all, they were discriminated against. By law. Some were put in concentration camps. Forbidden to buy land. To hold anything but menial jobs for decades. They have no real public role models in American society - few if any sports stars, news readers, public figures - far less than you might see of black role models.

So, tell me, why do Asians do so well? And why do blacks, on average, do so poorly. Are you going to say it's the Asian's fault? Or whitey's fault?

I know what the difference is. The Asians aren't sitting around waiting for the government to rescue them. They are making the necessary sacrifices to make sure their children grow up and get an education - something that is sorely lacking in the average black family.

And for those black families that DO concentrate on it - I've seen them myself - they DO WELL. And they move out of the city. Because they know better.

Most of my neighbors today are either blacks or hispanics or Asians who have taken that step - a step that should be taken by all of them - but for some reason, the blacks, more than the other races, want to wait for the government to do it for them.

No one is saying that - least of all Levitt/Donahue. Levitt shows rather conclusively that, while there is sufficient evidence to prove causality between Roe v. Wade and the decrease in crime statistics 15 years later, he also says that the economics of "needing" 1M+ abortions to "get" a decrease of 100,000 violent crimes is a very steep price. (assuming that there is only 1 crime per perpertrator, then there were 900,000+ "unnecessary" abortions)

Economic theory is all about causality and pure math. Bigotry has nothing to do with it.

http://www.freakonomics.com/ch4.php


Levitt/Donahue conclusively showed that they don't have any idea what they are talking about.

Let's correlate the decline of the crime rate with increased opportunity, with increases in college attendance, let’s correlate the decreasing levels of poverty with the increase of high-school graduation rates and after school employment levels. Let’s look at the increase in law enforcement budgets in high crime districts…

But trying to correlate the decrease in crime rates with the fact that someone might have killed the criminal twenty years before the crime occurred is asinine. Ad hominine my butt, it IS a racist presumption even before the study collected it’s first statistic.

Levitt/Donahue conclusively showed that they don't have any idea what they are talking about.

Let's correlate the decline of the crime rate with increased opportunity, with increases in college attendance, let’s correlate the decreasing levels of poverty with the increase of high-school graduation rates and after school employment levels. Let’s look at the increase in law enforcement budgets in high crime districts…

But trying to correlate the decrease in crime rates with the fact that someone might have killed the criminal twenty years before the crime occurred is asinine. Ad hominine my butt, it IS a racist presumption even before the study collected it’s first statistic.
That's OK greenie. You don't have to actually read the studies to form an opinion. Just keep ranting. It's funny.

That's OK greenie. You don't have to actually read the studies to form an opinion. Just keep ranting. It's funny.

Greenlander doesn't want to hear that a particular racial group is responsible for its own plight. He wants the government to "do something".

Unfortunately, that effort so far (The Great Society program) has made things worse. If anything, it has institutionalized the self-pity and the blame game (blame whitey).

i don't see how being forced to raise an accidentally conceived child would be good for anyone...

Does anyone else find it humorous that unplanned children are "accidentally" conceived? I know what the poster means, but it's more than a little disingenuous. It's not like it just happens. It kind of takes some work.

I see calling it "accidental" as an attempt to absolve the parties of responsability in the matter and that kind of thinking bothers me. If you knowingly engage in a risky act and the result of that risk happens, it's not an accident - It's a consequence.

I think one of the reasons that blacks don't mention this is that it is accepted by them.
ALthough I hate to refer to a 'Black Society' and 'White Society' who has seen a black Right To Life or Pro-Choice Activist? I only ever seen one, which was Whoopi Goldberg at a pro-choice rally waving a coathanger.
It is largely a white issue, as White have more Right-wing Religious that are opposed to such procedures then Blacks.
If the statisitics quoted by the author are correct, (Not implying falsehoods on their part), then the rate is approximately a 1 in 33 blacks compared to 1 in 83 white. THat means that black people are accepting of these procedures

Except that being liberal/progressive is not genetic.
You're absolutely right, it's not genetic. It's taught. Simply put, if your parents are progressive, they're going to try to teach you to be as well, and much more often than not they'll succeed.

Greenlander doesn't want to hear that a particular racial group is responsible for its own plight. He wants the government to "do something".

Unfortunately, that effort so far (The Great Society program) has made things worse. If anything, it has institutionalized the self-pity and the blame game (blame whitey).

Complete and utter strawman.

Shall we endeavor to at least maintain the semblance of staying on topic?

The topic is, does the abortion of black babies result in just the abortion of criminals.

Let’s see some of your studies that correlate the mothers of criminals and the babies that they 'didn't' have. Stupidity. :rolleyes:

Just keep trying to distract and justify your racist statement though, that Asians are doing just fine and Blacks blame whitey instead of helping themselves, maybe you would care to explain how that is not a racist statement. If that's not a racist argument then racism doesn't exist...

Complete and utter strawman.

Shall we endeavor to at least maintain the semblance of staying on topic?

The topic is, does the abortion of black babies result in just the abortion of criminals.

Let’s see some of your studies that correlate the mothers of criminals and the babies that they 'didn't' have. Stupidity. :rolleyes:

Just keep trying to distract and justify your racist statement though, that Asians are doing just fine and Blacks blame whitey instead of helping themselves, maybe you would care to explain how that is not a racist statement. If that's not a racist argument then racism doesn't exist...

I've posted plenty of evidence that blacks are criminal, to a degree not matched by any other racial or ethnic group.

I've also posted plenty of evidence that the victims of crimes committed by blacks are 94 percent black.

So, using your logic, to ignore this FACT and let the blacks keep killing each other is racist. Because if white people were killing blacks at this rate, it would be considered genocide. But they are killing each other. And you don't want to see statistics like that because you want to blame someone else.

I've posted plenty of evidence that blacks are criminal, to a degree not matched by any other racial or ethnic group.

I've also posted plenty of evidence that the victims of crimes committed by blacks are 94 percent black.

So, using your logic, to ignore this FACT and let the blacks keep killing each other is racist. Because if white people were killing blacks at this rate, it would be considered genocide. But they are killing each other. And you don't want to see statistics like that because you want to blame someone else.

Yes, I blame misplaced apologetic arguments based around non-related statistics that only confuse and obfuscate the issue.

The inducement of the African American woman by the ‘hidden’ racist in American to have an abortion instead of carrying to term has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 black women have had about 10 million abortions. And since the number of current living blacks (in the U.S.) is 31 million, the missing 10 million represents an enormous loss. Without abortion, America's black community would now be 41 million, 35% larger than it is and their voting power would be that much larger as well.

Abortion has swept through the black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member. And you people sit in here saying, "That's okay because they are just aborting future would be criminals anyway," is pure and simple racism. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

Yes, I blame misplaced apologetic arguments based around non-related statistics that only confuse and obfuscate the issue.

The inducement of the African American woman by the ‘hidden’ racist in American to have an abortion instead of carrying to term has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 black women have had about 10 million abortions. And since the number of current living blacks (in the U.S.) is 31 million, the missing 10 million represents an enormous loss. Without abortion, America's black community would now be 41 million, 35% larger than it is and their voting power would be that much larger as well.

Abortion has swept through the black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member. And you people sit in here saying, "That's okay because they are just aborting future would be criminals anyway," is pure and simple racism. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.


Show me a link to where I said it was OK. Or you'll have to apologize.

So if I understand the political scene correctly, conservatives are filtering crack in to black neighborhoods to keep them poor, and the liberals are using abortion to kill them off.

I think one of the reasons that blacks don't mention this is that it is accepted by them.
ALthough I hate to refer to a 'Black Society' and 'White Society' who has seen a black Right To Life or Pro-Choice Activist? I only ever seen one, which was Whoopi Goldberg at a pro-choice rally waving a coathanger.
It is largely a white issue, as White have more Right-wing Religious that are opposed to such procedures then Blacks.
If the statisitics quoted by the author are correct, (Not implying falsehoods on their part), then the rate is approximately a 1 in 33 blacks compared to 1 in 83 white. THat means that black people are accepting of these procedures


Nah, that's not quite right. The standard over decades is the exact opposite, strangely enough.

In a random study of the U.S. population in 1981 commissioned by the Connecticut Mutual Life Insurance Company, in response to the question, "Do you believe abortion is morally wrong, or is it not a moral issue? 64% of whites and 73% of blacks thought it was morally wrong.5 And according to a 1988 poll taken by the National Opinion Research Center, 62% of blacks said abortion should be illegal under all circumstances.

A May 1991 poll conducted by Wirthlin Group for Readers Digest reported that 34% of whites in the U.S. considered themselves to be Pro-Life while 53% of blacks considered themselves to be Pro-Life. In the same poll 47% of whites and 65% of blacks totally favored amending the U.S. constitution to protect the right of unborn children to live. The same poll also found that 53% of white and 64% of blacks totally opposed using tax dollars to pay for abortions for women who cannot afford to pay them.

So dispite the aparent discrepency, the African American community is not predominately pro-choice and never has been (as shown above).

So if I understand the political scene correctly, conservatives are filtering crack in to black neighborhoods to keep them poor, and the liberals are using abortion to kill them off.

And my point is that blacks are killing each other off in great numbers. If they're not aborting them, they're shooting each other.

Which Greenland would like to blame on someone else other than blacks.

It is as though he believes somehow that blacks are being held down on tables and forced to have abortions, and that they are forced to have guns duct-taped into their hands and the guns randomly go off all the time. That somehow, they share none of the responsibility for what's happenning.

That to suggest that they are to blame at all is racism in Greenland's eyes.

Show me a link to where I said it was OK. Or you'll have to apologize.

You just got done with how many posts saying essentially that 'black' people complain too much and have their plight to blame on themselve because it's their own damn fault... :rolleyes:

You just got done with how many posts saying essentially that 'black' people complain too much and have their plight to blame on themselve because it's their own damn fault... :rolleyes:

You have to show me where I said it was OK to abort blacks.

You can't, so you have to resort to this sort of inane post.

And my point is that blacks are killing each other off in great numbers. If they're not aborting them, they're shooting each other.

Which Greenland would like to blame on someone else other than blacks.

It is as though he believes somehow that blacks are being held down on tables and forced to have abortions, and that they are forced to have guns duct-taped into their hands and the guns randomly go off all the time. That somehow, they share none of the responsibility for what's happenning.

That to suggest that they are to blame at all is racism in Greenland's eyes.

Racism is institutionalized, socialized and still acceptable in America (provided you support it with statistics of crime rates). This very thread proves that racism is alive and well.

You have to show me where I said it was OK to abort blacks.

You can't, so you have to resort to this sort of inane post.

The whole topic is about abortion and African Americans, what part of this discussion didn't you realize what you were participating in?

Racism is institutionalized, socialized and still acceptable in America (provided you support it with statistics of crime rates). This very thread proves that racism is alive and well.

The statistics I showed proved that 94 percent of black victims are victims of blacks.

How is that racism? Eh?

Honestly ive never seen a black leader speak on anything except how racist the country is, and getting handouts...

Also Greenland your right racism is institutionalized... its called affirmative action.

<snip> Abortion has swept through the black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member. And you people sit in here saying, "That's okay because they are just aborting future would be criminals anyway," is pure and simple racism. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.
Again, you prove that reading is just too difficult... either that or you are willfully distorting the information presented.

The evidence we present is consistent with legalized abortion reducing crime rates with a twenty-year lag. Our results suggest that an increase of 100 abortions per 1000 live births reduces a cohort’s crime by roughly 10 percent. Extrapolating our results out of sample to a counterfactual in which abortion remained illegal and the number of illegal abortions performed remained steady at the 1960s level, we estimate that (with average national effective abortion rates in 1997 for all three crimes ranging from between 142 and 252) crime was almost 15—25 percent lower in 1997 than it would have been absent legalized abortion.
These estimates suggest that legalized abortion is a primary explanation for the large drops in murder, property crime, and violent crime that our nation has experienced over the last decade. Indeed, legalized abortion may account for as much as one-half of the overall crime reduction. Assuming that this claim is correct, existing estimates of the costs of crime (e.g., Miller, Cohen, and Rossman [1993] suggest that the social benefit to reduced crime as a result of abortion may be on the order of $30 billion dollars annually. Increased imprisonment between 1991 and 1997 (the prison population rose about 50 percent over this period) lowered crime 10 percent based on an elasticity of — .20. Thus, together abortion and prison growth explain much, if not all, of the decrease in crime. Roughly half of the crimes committed in the United States are done by individuals born prior to the legalization of abortion. As these older cohorts age out of criminality and are replaced by younger offenders born after abortion became legal, we would predict that crime rates will continue to fall. When a steady state is reached roughly twenty years from now, the impact of abortion will be roughly twice as great as the impact felt so far. Our results suggest that all else equal, legalized abortion will account for persistent declines of 1 percent a year in crime over the next two decades. To the extent that the Hyde Amendment effectively restricted access to abortion, however, this prediction might be overly optimistic.
While falling crime rates are no doubt a positive development, our drawing a link between falling crime and legalized abortion should not be misinterpreted as either an endorsement of abortion or a call for intervention by the state in the fertility decisions of women. Furthermore, equivalent reductions in crime could in principle be obtained through alternatives for abortion, such as more effective birth control, or providing better environments for those children at greatest risk for future crime. (Conclusion, pg 414,415 http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf )

Greenie, get over yourself. Facts exist. Facts are not Racist. Economists don't take Causality lightly. Read, learn, then mouth off.

The statistics I showed proved that 94 percent of black victims are victims of blacks.

How is that racism? Eh?

How is it related to the topic of African American Abortions?

You wanted a quote of how you keep saying it's okay? I don’t have to search, you keep doing it.

And my point is that blacks are killing each other off in great numbers. If they're not aborting them, they're shooting each other.

That's apologetic rationalization/excuses based on a racist presumption.

The whole topic is about abortion and African Americans, what part of this discussion didn't you realize what you were participating in?
No, the whole topic is about why there is such a "racial" disparity between pro-abortion activists and the community it numerically impacts most.

hey greenland can you provide any evidence or institutionalized racism in our society? I mean i always figured that the fact that current african immigrants coming to america are financially on par with the average white or asian american showed that if you come here willing to work, and assimilate yourself to the culture you wont have any problems.

Again, you prove that reading is just too difficult... either that or you are willfully distorting the information presented.

(Conclusion, pg 414,415 http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf )

Greenie, get over yourself. Facts exist. Facts are not Racist. Economists don't take Causality lightly. Read, learn, then mouth off.

The disclaimer at the end of a racist interpretation of data is hardly proof that the theory was/is correct nor does it disprove that it was a racist assumption to begin the study with in the first place.

<snip>You wanted a quote of how you keep saying it's okay? I don’t have to search, you keep doing it.No, he doesn't. Your insistance doesn't make it so. Prove - in context - that he believes it's "OK" (and not just a statistical truth) or stop Flaming.

That's apologetic rationalization/excuses based on a racist presumption. How is that "apologetic rationalization/excuses"? It is a statement of fact. The question is what to do about it.

That's apologetic rationalization/excuses based on a racist presumption.

We've shown you the facts. How are they racist?

How is knowing that blacks are killing blacks (94 percent) a racist statement?

It's a fact - and saying it's racist won't change it.

It's not even racist to say that blacks are killing blacks when it is a proven fact.

And that's not the same as saying it's OK - I'm saying it's a tragedy, because rather than face facts, you want to say it's not true.

The disclaimer at the end of a racist interpretation of data is hardly proof that the theory was/is correct nor does it disprove that it was a racist assumption to begin the study with in the first place.
Ok, so now we have definitive proof that you are one of those individuals who see "racism" in anything and are willing to use the term "racist" as a bludegon to stifle debate and critical thought. :rolleyes:

No wonder there is such lack of progress "racial" issues. :headbang:

And my point is that blacks are killing each other off in great numbers. If they're not aborting them, they're shooting each other.

Which Greenland would like to blame on someone else other than blacks.

It is as though he believes somehow that blacks are being held down on tables and forced to have abortions, and that they are forced to have guns duct-taped into their hands and the guns randomly go off all the time. That somehow, they share none of the responsibility for what's happenning.

That to suggest that they are to blame at all is racism in Greenland's eyes.

I am glad I didn't read this thread before I posted, because I don't know how to respond to this post, buy I'll try.

To both of you, both crime and abortion are byproducts of poverty. Blacks are just as responsible as the rest of us in handling the situation they are put in. Black individuals who commit crime and get abortions are responsible for their actions in the end. But we should also be concerned with the problems that lead to their choices.

EDIT: I have a feeling both of you agree to this, but are unwilling to budge towards compromise.

hey greenland can you provide any evidence or institutionalized racism in our society? I mean i always figured that the fact that current african immigrants coming to america are financially on par with the average white or asian american showed that if you come here willing to work, and assimilate yourself to the culture you wont have any problems.

By discouraging poverty striken African American people from forming families when they have children in the first place (if they have two parents they are less likely qualify for aide in the form living expenses and food or WICK stamps). Thus, we end up with 70% out of wedlock birth rates, astronomical abortion rates and children that aren't raised in two parent homes. All started because the governments institutional methodologies are anti-African American family (either by design or mistake, it's irrelevant 'why' but it is).

By discouraging poverty striken African American people from forming families when they have children in the first place (if they have two parents they are less likely qualify for aide in the form living expenses and food or WICK stamps). Thus, we end up with 70% out of wedlock birth rates, astronomical abortion rates and children that aren't raised in two parent homes. All started because the governments institutional methodologies are anti-African American family (either by design or mistake, it's irrelevant 'why' but it is).


Other ethnic groups are also in those situations - and they don't stay there. Asians and Hispanics start out at the bottom, too. There isn't any language in the welfare regulations that says "blacks get treated this way, others don't".

The methodologies are those of The Great Society program conceived of by the Democratic Party. Yes, they are damaging. But some groups have managed not to get trapped - not to stay in the system for generations. Something else has happened.

An unwillingness to look at the disparate statistical results will permanently blind you to any real possibility of making it stop.

Throwing the word "racism" around isn't the solution.

By discouraging poverty striken African American people from forming families when they have children in the first place (if they have two parents they are less likely qualify for aide in the form living expenses and food or WICK stamps). Thus, we end up with 70% out of wedlock birth rates, astronomical abortion rates and children that aren't raised in two parent homes. All started because the governments institutional methodologies are anti-African American family (either by design or mistake, it's irrelevant 'why' but it is).


Well wouldnt that also discourage white and asian families as well? How is that racist? Are you implying that black people are an exception? That they are different from whites or asians?

I would say that black illigitimacy rate is more do to with cultural morals rather than anything to do with the tax laws. Also consider that more white americans are on welfare and recieve more of this assistance. Would it not make sense that white america would have a higher illigitimacy rate to Take advantage of that possible aide?

Id hate to offend but i will anyways. Black culture has been given the cop out of being able to blame all their problems on racism. This has created a culture that doesnt have to take responsibility for any of its actions. Thank god we didnt have any of this politically correct bullcrap going on when the irish, and the eastern europeans came to this country in the late 1800's. Instead of complaining about the racism and the hate crimes, and marching on washington they put their heads down and worked their butts off and in todays culture no Irishman would even think to say "Hey im on welfare, and out of a job because im irish and America hates irish people."

I find it hard to see liberals avoiding something due to religious reasons...
I happen to agree. This whole topic doesn't make sense to me...

Well wouldnt that also discourage white and asian families as well? How is that racist? Are you implying that black people are an exception? That they are different from whites or asians?

I would say that black illigitimacy rate is more do to with cultural morals rather than anything to do with the tax laws. Also consider that more white americans are on welfare and recieve more of this assistance. Would it not make sense that white america would have a higher illigitimacy rate to Take advantage of that possible aide?

Id hate to offend but i will anyways. Black culture has been given the cop out of being able to blame all their problems on racism. This has created a culture that doesnt have to take responsibility for any of its actions. Thank god we didnt have any of this politically correct bullcrap going on when the irish, and the eastern europeans came to this country in the late 1800's. Instead of complaining about the racism and the hate crimes, and marching on washington they put their heads down and worked their butts off and in todays culture no Irishman would even think to say "Hey im on welfare, and out of a job because im irish and America hates irish people."
Kejott's post's of Chris Rock's opinion are really appropriate here...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9742511&postcount=30

Boys raised in a single parent households are more likely to participate in criminal activity before they are 24. 70% of the African American community has been raised by a society of single parent households.

You do the math, being black has nothing, nothing at all to do with it. The affects of racism is WHY they African American community is the way it is.

Boys raised in a single parent households are more likely to participate in criminal activity before they are 24. 70% of the African American community has been raised by a society of single parent households.

You do the math, being black has nothing, nothing at all to do with it. The affects of racism is WHY they African American community is the way it is.

Why aren't the Asians and Hispanics on welfare affected by the single parent thing?

Boys raised in a single parent households are more likely to participate in criminal activity before they are 24. 70% of the African American community has been raised by a society of single parent households.

You do the math, being black has nothing, nothing at all to do with it. The affects of racism is WHY they African American community is the way it is.


So perhaps under the umbrella of affirmative action which is racism against whites and asians in black cultures favor the black culture should stop having illigitimate children, commiting crimes, and shooting eachother.

How long can you blame what to me seems like a personal moral decision (Getting married, having illigitimate children etc.) on racism even after the racism is gone?

Boys raised in a single parent households are more likely to participate in criminal activity before they are 24. 70% of the African American community has been raised by a society of single parent households.

You do the math, being black has nothing, nothing at all to do with it. The affects of racism is WHY they African American community is the way it is.
Which gets back to the (OP's) interesting dichotomy of WHY:

If the majority of Blacks are Anti-abortion they don't form a larger counter-protest to the primarily White Liberal Female Pro-abortion segment.

and WHY

If the Black Community is aware of both the Eugenicist origins of the militant pro-abortion movement, as well as the statistical realities of abortion in the black community, you don't see a larger anti-abortion faction in the Black community.

Black Americans are disproportionately impacted by the ramifications of abortion, as compared to their non-black counterparts. According to the most recently available data, black mothers end 30.2 of every 1,000 pregnancies in abortion--250% the rate of white mothers. http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031781347267

So even though blacks, as a whole, are impacted so much greater than non-blacks, black leaders (and their followers) seem to be completely ignoring the issue either way. Aside from the fact that I've never seen a black political or religious leader ever speak on the matter, I can't help but think about the one massive pro-life/pro-choice rally I attended in 2002 in Washington D.C. I went for the pro-life rally, obviously, to mark the Roe v. Wade anniversary by marching Washington to the Supreme Court (incidentally, I'd never seen such a freak show. Oddly enough, it actually made me understand the pro-abortion side better because I was like "these lunatics are the ones who agree with me?"--at least until we ran into the pro-choice supporters... they were even more so a bizarre looking/acting bunch. The whole experience was really bizarre, and I wouldn't go again, but I digress...) In an estimated crowd of 120,000 people, in Washington D.C., a city in which 60% of the populations claims black ancestry, I literally did not see a single black person present for either side during the entire course of the day. The only black people I saw on the streets were cops. This is not a statistical anomoly.

The fact is, liberals don't want black people thinking about abortion because if black people were to give abortion much thought they might realize that abortion, a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, has been very bad for African Americans.

A black person, genuinely concerned about the plight of blacks in this country, would have to recognize that they are losing 13 million votes every 30 years... enough to create an additional 20 black electoral votes and to create black majorities in an additional 40 congressional seats.

And liberals don't want black people hearing about those arguments white liberals have with white conservatives about abortion in which the white liberal eventually defends his pro-abortion position by saying, "Well, they'll just grow up poor and be criminals anyway."

This is the irony of it all--given that blacks voted for Al Gore by a ratio of about 10-to-1, if abortion was illegal, Bush wouldn't be President, and liberals wouldn't now be worried about who he's putting on the Supreme Court.

Why are blacks so removed from abortion as a political issue? No one can do anything more than speculate, but it sure seems to me that its because their leadership has voluntarily chosen to turn a blind eye.



This is about your third thread on "why don't the blacks vote like I think they should." Guess what. A black voter makes up his or her mind just like a white voter. There is no black hive mind. And black voters vote in what they think are their best interests and/or the best interst of the country just like you do.

Moreoever, African-Americans might just disagree with you about abortion. Perhaps they value individual freedom more than you do. Perhaps they like that women have control over their own bodies.

If you learned to think about African-Americans as being just as capable as whites at thinking about politics, perhaps you could make a reasonable point without sounding like a condescending racist.

Why aren't the Asians and Hispanics on welfare affected by the single parent thing?

First of all, you haven't shown that they aren't. Second of all, I addressed this already in a previous post, but you ignored it because it's hard to argue against.

Asians were never slaves in this country. The treatment that Asians received in the US while deplorable is still not even in the same neighborhood as blacks. When the majority of Asians are descendants of people who were owned by other people in the US then you will have an argument. Until then, accept that not all racisim is equal. Quick question who is more likely to be hung by a group of rednecks? Blacks, hispanics or Asians? The answer is fairly obvious. Another question quick question when racism against blacks is so open, and considering most visible racism is really the tip of the iceberg, how much more racism do you think goes on in regards to blacks and jobs, schools, etc.?

<snip>Moreoever, African-Americans might just disagree with you about abortion. Perhaps they value individual freedom more than you do. Perhaps they like that women have control over their own bodies.<snip>
That's how I'd like to see it anyway...

Which gets back to the (OP's) interesting dichotomy of WHY:

If the majority of Blacks are Anti-abortion they don't form a larger counter-protest to the primarily White Liberal Female Pro-abortion segment.

and WHY

If the Black Community is aware of both the Eugenicist origins of the militant pro-abortion movement, as well as the statistical realities of abortion in the black community, you don't see a larger anti-abortion faction in the Black community.

Pro-Abortion? What Pro-Abortion movement? I've never seen a group of activists saying I think people really need to get more abortions. There is a significant difference between protecting the right to decide what goes on in your own body and being 'pro-abortion'. I personally think that women should have the right to make the decision, but I would never encourage anyone I knew to get an abortion for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there are a number of alternatives. I have yet to meet anyone who's not joking or trying to upset people that suggesting there simply aren't enough abortions going on.

First of all, you haven't shown that they aren't. Second of all, I addressed this already in a previous post, but you ignored it because it's hard to argue against.

Asians were never slaves in this country. The treatment that Asians received in the US while deplorable is still not even in the same neighborhood as blacks. When the majority of Asians are descendants of people who were owned by other people in the US then you will have an argument. Until then, accept that not all racisim is equal. Quick question who is more likely to be hung by a group of rednecks? Blacks, hispanics or Asians? The answer is fairly obvious. Another question quick question when racism against blacks is so open, and considering most visible racism is really the tip of the iceberg, how much more racism do you think goes on in regards to blacks and jobs, schools, etc.?

I've shown that Asians and Hispanics are less likely to kill each other, or be involved in violent crime.

So perhaps under the umbrella of affirmative action which is racism against whites and asians in black cultures favor the black culture should stop having illigitimate children, commiting crimes, and shooting eachother.

How long can you blame what to me seems like a personal moral decision (Getting married, having illigitimate children etc.) on racism even after the racism is gone?

Racism is gone? Are you serious? What country do you live in? Perhaps you'll stop hearing about racism being blamed when racism IS gone. It's not. It never has been.

you guys are driving me crazy with unwarrented assumptions. ill try to get to them all

first of all, abortions are not random. a woman chooses to abort her pregancy because she is in crisis. she is too poor or too young or just unwilling or unable to care for a baby. pre-roevwade it was just her tough luck, her baby was born to a woman who didnt want it. this forced child is born into a much more stressful life than a wanted child. therefore it has a higher chance to become a criminal or engage in other anti-social behavior. not all such children but statistically more than in a population made up of all wanted children.

according to that study, this factor alone accounts for a big percentage of the drop in the crime rate. better parents raise fewer criminals. .

this is true regardless of the race of the woman getting the abortion. but the poorer and less prepared the woman is, the more likely she is to be in crisis. black women are more likely to be in crisis since more black women are poor.

because black people are more likely to be charged with and convicted of a crime (that doesnt mean they commit crime in the same disporportion) and because black women have a higher incidence of abortion the effect of abortion on the crime rate is assumed reflect a lower crime rate amongst blacks.

i dont recall seeing a statistic saying that the black crime rate is going down faster than that of other races. perhaps i overlooked it.

secondly THERE ARE NO MISSING BLACK PEOPLE. women have, to simplify things, 2 children each. if she has an abortion she still goes on to have 2 children, she just wont have them as young. if she doesnt have an abortion on THIS pregnancy but bears a live child, she goes on to have one more child not 2.

most women dont have an abortion because they dont want children, they have an abortion because they dont want children NOW.

what legal abortion has done is to reduce the number of unwanted children, the number of children born with birth defects, the number of children born into stressed families, the number of children who are resented because they ruined their parents lives.

Pro-Abortion? What Pro-Abortion movement? I've never seen a group of activists saying I think people really need to get more abortions. There is a significant difference between protecting the right to decide what goes on in your own body and being 'pro-abortion'. I personally think that women should have the right to make the decision, but I would never encourage anyone I knew to get an abortion for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there are a number of alternatives. I have yet to meet anyone who's not joking or trying to upset people that suggesting there simply aren't enough abortions going on.

Exactly, this is like suggesting that people who believe in freedom of speech are pro-nazism and pro-racism.

I've shown that Asians and Hispanics are less likely to kill each other, or be involved in violent crime.

So? Have you shown that poor hispanics born to single parents are less likely to be involved in crime? Since you made the claim.

Also, you addressed none of the rest of that post. Can you really suggest that the history of racism in this country among the various ethnic groups are equal? Yes, some groups of asians have experienced severe racism allowed by the government (severe racism in this case being slavery, murder based on race only, torture due to race, incarceration due to race). But you group all Asians together and then suggest that they somehow compare to blacks while just about every black man, woman and child has either directly experienced severe racism or has a family member who has.

Pro-Abortion? What Pro-Abortion movement? I've never seen a group of activists saying I think people really need to get more abortions. There is a significant difference between protecting the right to decide what goes on in your own body and being 'pro-abortion'. I personally think that women should have the right to make the decision, but I would never encourage anyone I knew to get an abortion for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there are a number of alternatives. I have yet to meet anyone who's not joking or trying to upset people that suggesting there simply aren't enough abortions going on.
True - perhaps pro-abortion is not exactly the right term, but there is a segment of the pro-choice community that would just as soon ensure that a pregnant woman NOT actually be given options from which to Choose. Just like the pro-lifers would just as soon no one in reproductive services ever mentioned "abortion", there are those who don't want reproductive services to talk about Term/Adoption possibilities.

I'm a big fan of 100% disclosure before decisions are taken, but you must admit there are those who aren't.

<snip> what legal abortion has done is to reduce the number of unwanted children, the number of children born with birth defects, the number of children born into stressed families, the number of children who are resented because they ruined their parents lives.
YAY! Someone who actually read the study!

So? Have you shown that poor hispanics born to single parents are less likely to be involved in crime? Since you made the claim.

Also, you addressed none of the rest of that post. Can you really suggest that the history of racism in this country among the various ethnic groups are equal? Yes, some groups of asians have experienced severe racism allowed by the government (severe racism in this case being slavery, murder based on race only, torture due to race, incarceration due to race). But you group all Asians together and then suggest that they somehow compare to blacks while just about every black man, woman and child has either directly experienced severe racism or has a family member who has.

Probably not comparable. But slavery ended a long time ago. The Civil Rights Act was a long time ago. No, racism is not gone. But in some sections of the country, its effects are minimal compared to 40 years ago.

I believe that the government action that caused the most damage was the Great Society program, and the government sponsored ghettos that were called "public housing". And since blacks at the time were told to trust the government, and told that the government was here to help, they unwittingly walked into a trap. A trap from which they cannot escape, largely because the same people who talked them into it are telling them that it's racism alone that keeps them deprived - not a system designed to destroy families and encourage out of wedlock births - not a system designed to punish those who go to work. Not a system that concentrates them in high density areas where crime will naturally occur at high rates. Not in a system that encourages a war on drugs that is even more pointless than any other war we fight - it kills more blacks at the hands of blacks than the war in Iraq - and incarcerates far more.

But as long as Greenlander isn't going to accept statistics that show that blacks are in trouble, he'll be saying the problem is solely racism - and he won't be able to find a way out. To say that just because a statistic shows bad things about one group doesn't mean it's racist.

Fine. It probably won't hurt for Greenlander to stay blind on purpose. But it hurts blacks to be blind like that. Consider that a secondary effect of racism - after the initial harm, the victim becomes blind to any real solution to their problem.

I've shown that Asians and Hispanics are less likely to kill each other, or be involved in violent crime.

No, you only proved that African Americans commit crimes against other African Americans. You did not prove that Asians and Hispanics don't commit crimes against other Asians and Hispanics, etc.

In fact, that's a general truth as well, most murdered people are killed by someone in their own family, regardless of race.

No, you only proved that African Americans commit crimes against other African Americans. You did not prove that Asians and Hispanics don't commit crimes against other Asians and Hispanics, etc.

In fact, that's a general truth as well, most murdered people are killed by someone in their own family, regardless of race.

I also proved that blacks commit murder far out of proportion to their numbers - and that the other groups do not share the same skew.

I also proved that blacks commit murder far out of proportion to their numbers - and that the other groups do not share the same skew.

That, again, is the topic now isn’t it. African Americans being over represented in abortions, over represented in single parent household and over represented in crime rates. Perhaps they are related? Yes, of course they are.

The government destroyed the foundation of the African American community when it discouraged (via the withholding of aide to married couples) the very ability to form families and raise the next generation. The African American community has suffered the longest, that's why they suffer the most.

When you have 70% single parent household (any race) you will have more criminals and criminal behavior. Period.

So is there anything constructive to these statistics, other than "Feel good about yourself if you're not black?"

There's a good reason that Samuel Clemens called statistics one of the Three Types of Lies. Statistics never take exceptions into account and they can be with effort manipulated or even changed to reflect an outcome favorable to a particular agenda.

This whole thread does nothing to help blacks. If anything, it encourages people to point at and laugh at them like exhibits in the Monkey House as they allegedly abort and kill each other into extinction.

In fact, that's a general truth as well, most murdered people are killed by someone in their own family, regardless of race.

Incorrect, according to the FBI, only about 12.5% are direct family members (including common-law and ex-spouses). The majority fall in the "Acquaintance", "Stranger", or "Unknown" catagories.

Incorrect, according to the FBI, only about 12.5% are direct family members (including common-law and ex-spouses). The majority fall in the "Acquaintance", "Stranger", or "Unknown" catagories.

I stand corrected there then...

True - perhaps pro-abortion is not exactly the right term, but there is a segment of the pro-choice community that would just as soon ensure that a pregnant woman NOT actually be given options from which to Choose. Just like the pro-lifers would just as soon no one in reproductive services ever mentioned "abortion", there are those who don't want reproductive services to talk about Term/Adoption possibilities.

I'm a big fan of 100% disclosure before decisions are taken, but you must admit there are those who aren't.

I've heard someone say that she thought too many unwed mothers were choosing to not have abortions. In other words, she felt that more abortions should take place. I would call that pro-abortion.

Incorrect, according to the FBI, only about 12.5% are direct family members (including common-law and ex-spouses). The majority fall in the "Acquaintance", "Stranger", or "Unknown" catagories.


Are you sure? Could you provide a link? That surprises me, is all...

Are you sure? Could you provide a link? That surprises me, is all...

I thought it would be higher as well. I think it's the confusions w/ the terms "intimates" etc.

Here's the link:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/xl/03tbl2-11.xls

So is there anything constructive to these statistics, other than "Feel good about yourself if you're not black?"

You can't solve a problem if you don't know what the problem is.

And does anyone "feel good" about these statistics?

There's a good reason that Samuel Clemens called statistics one of the Three Types of Lies.

What are the other two? Just curious.

Statistics never take exceptions into account

Well, that's not necessarily the case...

and they can be with effort manipulated or even changed to reflect an outcome favorable to a particular agenda.

Correct.

This whole thread does nothing to help blacks.

I respectfully disagree.

If anything, it encourages people to point at and laugh at them like exhibits in the Monkey House as they allegedly abort and kill each other into extinction.

Um, who thinks that a group's serious socioeconomic problems are funny?

What are the other two? Just curious."Lies" and "Damn Lies".

I've heard someone say that she thought too many unwed mothers were choosing to not have abortions. In other words, she felt that more abortions should take place. I would call that pro-abortion.

Ok so once comment validates the claim for the majority?

So explain to me once again, why Asians seem to do so well getting out of poverty, scoring high on tests, and getting into good schools, and getting good jobs, and staying out of trouble, even when their parents don't speak English, and there are no prominent Asian role models, when blacks can't do the same?
It's because hard work and responsibility are a part of Asian cultures and are instilled in the children.

Let's 'statistically' prove that the decline of dung-beetle population directly correlates with global warming.... Just because I can show statistics to support the claim doesn't make it true.
Why would that claim not be untrue if statistically proven? Because if "racism" and other emotional plights?

A May 1991 poll conducted by Wirthlin Group for Readers Digest reported that 34% of whites in the U.S. considered themselves to be Pro-Life while 53% of blacks considered themselves to be Pro-Life. In the same poll 47% of whites and 65% of blacks totally favored amending the U.S. constitution to protect the right of unborn children to live. The same poll also found that 53% of white and 64% of blacks totally opposed using tax dollars to pay for abortions for women who cannot afford to pay them.

So dispite the aparent discrepency, the African American community is not predominately pro-choice and never has been (as shown above).
So, the message is, only Greenlander may use statistics to prove his points.

True - perhaps pro-abortion is not exactly the right term, but there is a segment of the pro-choice community that would just as soon ensure that a pregnant woman NOT actually be given options from which to Choose.
What, you think that there's a part of the pro-choice movement that thinks abortion should be mandatory á la Red China? I don't accept this.

Ok so once comment validates the claim for the majority?

Um... what?

"Lies" and "Damn Lies".

Hilarious :D

<snip>What, you think that there's a part of the pro-choice movement that thinks abortion should be mandatory á la Red China? I don't accept this.
That's not what I said. I said there is a segment that does not believe in full disclosure and would rather the patient NOT hear both sides of the argument at the clinic before a rational choice can be taken. It has come to the point where clinics have been forbidden to allow any information - no matter how non-religious/accusatory - on alternatives to having an abortion. I find this as repellant as the "clinics" that provide no health services but do do a lot of anti-abortion preaching.

So, the message is, only Greenlander may use statistics to prove his points.


No, any argument that tries to us statistics to suggest that African Americans are better off being dead, or aborting their children, rather than being alive and having children, because they have too many criminals in their race so it is always better to have fewer of them than many of them is presupposing an argument advocating racism.

No, any argument that tries to us statistics to suggest that African Americans are better off being dead, or aborting their children, rather than being alive and having children, because they have too many criminals in their race so it is always better to have fewer of them than many of them is presupposing an argument advocating racism.
What part of "No one is suggesting that" do you not understand? :headbang:

Or is your own willfull blindness and need to call others racists so entrenched that you simply refuse to engage in rational problem solving? :mad:

It's because hard work and responsibility are a part of Asian cultures and are instilled in the children.

Um, the obvious inference one should draw from this that is that hard work and responsibility are not parts of African-American culture and isn't instilled in children? I mean, if it's the difference between why African Americans are more likely to be poor than Asian Americans, right?

I reject that.

Um, the obvious inference one should draw from this that is that hard work and responsibility are not parts of African-American culture and isn't instilled in children? I mean, if it's the difference between why African Americans are more likely to be poor than Asian Americans, right?

I reject that.
Well, I wouldn't say it's part of African American culture per-se, but it IS part of the "ghetto" culture that spawned the urban drug/violence culture - as so directly illuminated by Rap & Hip Hop music.

So no, not African American, but Yes, centered on largely African American urban areas.

What part of "No one is suggesting that" do you not understand? :headbang:

Or is your own willfull blindness and need to call others racists so entrenched that you simply refuse to engage in rational problem solving? :mad:

The very first post that got me involved in this thread at all...


I would say that black people having abortions more often is a good thing.

Case in point: There is strong statistical evidence showing abortion leads to lower crime rate.

Black people have a bad, and unwarranted in general, stereotype of being criminals.

If these abortions are lowering the number of criminals, especially for black people, then thats one step closer to getting rid of these stereotypes.

I fail to see how its harming blacks.

The very first post that got me involved in this thread at all...
first of all, abortion is in no way genocide against black america. the number of abortions does not affect the number of children women ultimately have. if a particular woman is not allowed an abortion on a particular day that fetus becomes one of the "2" live children she will end up with (2 in quotes because its not statistically a round number)

so perhaps what he meant but said ambiguously is

if black women are having more wanted children in more stable circumstances that would seem to be a good thing for black americans in general. this would be especially true if having children in better circumstances was leading to a drop in the black crime rate.

The very first post that got me involved in this thread at all...
Ok, let's parse it rather than leaping to conclusions:


I would say that black people having abortions more often is a good thing.A suprising comment. Certainly needs clarification, but it is the first sentence and there is clarification to follow.
Case in point: There is strong statistical evidence showing abortion leads to lower crime rate.Irrefutable. The evidence applies across racial lines and is causal.
Black people have a bad, and unwarranted in general, stereotype of being criminals.Hardly racist here.
If these abortions are lowering the number of criminals, especially for black people, then thats one step closer to getting rid of these stereotypes.Lower SES people having abortions lowers incident crime in 15-20 years. The majority of Abortions are undergone by low SES African Americans.
Therefore, fewer low SES African Americans are comitting or being convicted of crime, causing the "unwarranted stereotype" to diminish.
I fail to see how its harming blacks.Rephrased just for Greenlander: African Americans, as a classification, do not suffer from the existence or continuation of legalized, voluntary abortion.

So, your assertion: ... any argument that tries to us statistics to suggest that African Americans are better off being dead, or aborting their children, rather than being alive and having children, because they have too many criminals in their race so it is always better to have fewer of them than many of them is presupposing an argument advocating racism. is simply that - a baseless assertion derived from your own inability to look at the issue dispassionately.

None of Chellis's statements are advocating, praising or encouraging Abortion in the African American community - especially to the radical eugenicist extent you wish to use as your petard.

I'd wager that this example has more to do with socio-economic class/situation than it does race. White Americans and Asian Americans are more likely than not to be middle class or affluent. On the other hand, a disproportionate percentage of African Americans and Latinos live in poverty and attend poorer school systems, who have fewer resources and are not as well-equipped to effectively teach as wealthier or private school systems.

And how much does it cost to teach someone how to read and do basic arithmetic?

How much does it cost to instill a love of learning, a desire to read everything you can get your hands on?

How much???

And why were the literacy rates and mathematics abilities better before all the money started getting poured down the bottomless pit of public education?

And why did everyone have books when there was much less being spent on education?

It's all about the attitude towards education, reading, losing your ignorance...simple as that!

And how much does it cost to teach someone how to read and do basic arithmetic?

How much does it cost to instill a love of learning, a desire to read everything you can get your hands on?

How much???

And why were the literacy rates and mathematics abilities better before all the money started getting poured down the bottomless pit of public education?

And why did everyone have books when there was much less being spent on education?

It's all about the attitude towards education, reading, losing your ignorance...simple as that!

Are you channeling Bill Cosby, or Chris Rock (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9742511&postcount=30)? :p

I'm tired of niggers, you know what's the worst thing about niggers? Niggers always want some credit for some shit you're SUPPOSED to do, for some shit that a normal person just does. A ****** will say some shit like "I take care of my kids" You're supposed to you dumb motherfucker! What kind of ignorant shit is that?! "I ain't never been to jail" What you want? A cookie?!! You're not supposed to go to jail you low expectation having motherfucker! You know the worst thing about niggers? The WOOOORST thing about niggers? Niggers love to not know.

Nothing makes a ****** happier than not knowing the answer to your question. Just ask a ****** a question, any ******! What's the capital of Ziare? "I don't know that shit! I'm keepin it real!" Niggers love to keep it real...real dumb! Niggers hate knoweledge, shit! If niggers break in your house and you want to save your money, put it in your books, because niggers don't read! Shit, books are like cryptonite to a ******! Here's a book! "NOOOOOO NOOOOOO NOT A BOOK NOOOOO!!!!!" *falls to the ground in extreme pain*


OTOH, Cosby got crucified for having the gall to suggest the same thing. Never mind. :rolleyes:

Irrefutable. The evidence applies across racial lines and is causal.

Totally refutable. There has been no corolation shown whatsoever between abortion a decrease in crime rates. There is zero evidence that "criminal" fetuses are being disproportionately aborted.


Lower SES people having abortions lowers incident crime in 15-20 years. The majority of Abortions are undergone by low SES African Americans.
Therefore, fewer low SES African Americans are comitting or being convicted of crime, causing the "unwarranted stereotype" to diminish.
Rephrased just for Greenlander: African Americans, as a classification, do not suffer from the existence or continuation of legalized, voluntary abortion.

So, your assertion: is simply that - a baseless assertion derived from your own inability to look at the issue dispassionately.

None of Chellis's statements are advocating, praising or encouraging Abortion in the African American community - especially to the radical eugenicist extent you wish to use as your petard.

To presupposed that a fetus aborted is likely a criminal aborted because the mother is black is RACIST. Period. End of story. Pretend like you have statistics that support the theory that an aborted black fetus would have been a criminal all you want, but it only advocates the idea that the less black males you have the less criminals you have.

Do you want to slash crime rates in half twenty years from now? Abort half the male babies for five years straight.... Now let's say, abort 25% of all the African American fetuses and claim you reduced crime rates because of it.

The reduction in crime rates is unrelated to abortion, they are not linked whatsoever. Improved education, graduation, unemployment rates and affirmative action might be able to argue that they have reduced the crime rates in the African American community, but you will never be able to point at a pile of ten aborted fetuses and say the five that are black would have been criminals... asinine position.

When you have 70% single parent household (any race) you will have more criminals and criminal behavior. Period.

This is true. And currently, the people with the higher single parent households are blacks. You are simply helping me prove that there is causality between less blacks and less crime.

Two things you assume I am doing, which I am not:

1. I am not including other areas. There are very important reasons why blacks commit more crime, etc. All I am doing is correlating blacks to crime. This is a what type of statement, not a why.

2. Relating to the last assumption, I am not saying why blacks are criminals more often. If you want to work off of the incredibly likely assumption that blacks are criminals more often, because of more poverty, etc, then go ahead. I support that belief. However, it doesn't change the fact that blacks commit more crime than whites as of now and the last twenty years, and that many of those who are aborted would have had a higher chance of being criminals.

And would you please stop using absolutes? It really, really hurts your argument when you try to claim somebody said "Aborted black people means aborted criminal". You seem to have absolutely no grasp of likelihood.

I don't believe there is anything genetic that makes blacks more likely to be criminals, etc. I am not offering any reasons WHY these facts are true. I am attempting to prove they are true.

And syniks, thank you for explaining what I was saying. I only meant that since these abortions lead to less crime from the black community, that it helped their image, which leads to less racism, etc. Would I suggest more abortions? None that were forced, etc. This is something that works out accidentally, but well.

Totally refutable. There has been no corolation shown whatsoever between abortion a decrease in crime rates. There is zero evidence that "criminal" fetuses are being disproportionately aborted.

If you don't believe the corrolation, fine. But to say there is no shown corrolation is to quite simply lie.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

That shows corrolation. Believe it or not, but it shows it.

The fact that they are 250% more likely to abort their kids suggests that they already know where there loyalties lie. Good thing too, fetus soup is delicious and healthy, or so I've heard.

If you don't believe the corrolation, fine. But to say there is no shown corrolation is to quite simply lie.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

That shows corrolation. Believe it or not, but it shows it.

No, it takes two unrelated bits of data and links them through nothing but theory.

Unless you point at genetics, you can never say that any fetus was destined to be a criminal. You have not treated it badly yet, you have not failed to educate him yet, you have not raised him in a community of poverty yet, you have not stereotyped his existence as a likely criminal, yet. Until you do, you do not have a criminal, you have a potential child. Good or bad, that is yet to be determined. Conception is not a sentence just because the fetus is in a black mother, ever.

Totally refutable. There has been no corolation shown whatsoever between abortion a decrease in crime rates.Then I challange you to refute it, with supporting data. There is zero evidence that "criminal" fetuses are being disproportionately aborted.That is absolutely correct. The data says no such thing. In fact, the data says that the likelyhood of any particular fetus growing up to be a criminal is less than 1/100,000. But when you have 1,000,000 abortions that means 100,000 less criminals. Economies of scale.
To presupposed that a fetus aborted is likely a criminal aborted because the mother is black is RACIST. Period. End of story. Pretend like you have statistics that support the theory that an aborted black fetus would have been a criminal all you want, but it only advocates the idea that the less black males you have the less criminals you have.the statistics are for abortion, period. Race was not a factor in its coorelation.
Do you want to slash crime rates in half twenty years from now? Abort half the male babies for five years straight.... Now let's say, abort 25% of all the African American fetuses and claim you reduced crime rates because of it.you are babbling. Please clarify what you are attempting to say.
The reduction in crime rates is unrelated to abortion, they are not linked whatsoever. Improved education, graduation, unemployment rates and affirmative action might be able to argue Were you to actually read the data, you would find that there is no stastical coorelation between those things and reduced crime. For that matter, one can find no time-based, longetudinal causal link for the precipitous decline in crime rates in the mid 1990 EXCEPT that it was 15-20 years after the legalization of abortion., that they have reduced the crime rates in the African American community, but you will never be able to point at a pile of ten aborted fetuses and say the five that are black would have been criminals...Correct. You would have to try to pick the 1 in 100,000. asinine position.Yes, yours most certainly is. :rolleyes:

Totally refutable. There has been no corolation shown whatsoever between abortion a decrease in crime rates. There is zero evidence that "criminal" fetuses are being disproportionately aborted.


there are, as you say, no criminal fetuses. no one is born with the certitude that they will grow up to commit crimes

however, children born to women who dont want them and cant care for them (which is why she would have an abortion) have a statistically higher likelihood of ending up in the criminal justice system.

this has nothing to do with being black and everything to do with the reasons that women of all races get abortions. now that no woman is forced to have a baby she doesnt want and cant care for, that causal factor in the crime rate is incredibly reduced.

yes its rather racist to focus on black people when people of all races commit crimes. that is, however, the topic brought up by the original poster not those you are arguing with.

What all of us are forgetting is that white delinquents and black delinquents commit the same amount of crime. It's just that black delinquents get caught more often and put on the news more often. This whole notion of extreme levels of black criminality fail to acknowledge those po' white trash kids who are committing the same levels of crime, but rarely get caught. In all the recent school shootings in this country, who have done the shooting? White kids, with the exception of one half-white, half american indian.

What all of us are forgetting is that white delinquents and black delinquents commit the same amount of crime. It's just that black delinquents get caught more often and put on the news more often. This whole notion of extreme levels of black criminality fail to acknowledge those po' white trash kids who are committing the same levels of crime, but rarely get caught. In all the recent school shootings in this country, who have done the shooting? White kids, with the exception of one half-white, half american indian.
absotlutely

there is no way to know what the actual crime rate is when one group gets charged more harshly and convicted more often than another.

not to mention the whole drug crime thing.

No, it takes two unrelated bits of data and links them through nothing but theory.

Why do you keep insisting that the data is talking about Blacks? Read the damn research!

The research shows conclusively that across racial lines there was a precipitous drop in crime nationwide 15 years after the implementation of Abortion on Demand. It is so time coorelated that those 7 states that initiated abortion on demand 5 years prior to Roe v Wade saw their crime rates drop 5 years earlier: in precice accordance with the implememtation of their state laws.

Race has nothing to do with the numbers.

Unless you point at genetics, you can never say that any fetus was destined to be a criminal. You have not treated it badly yet, you have not failed to educate him yet, you have not raised him in a community of poverty yet, you have not stereotyped his existence as a likely criminal, yet. Until you do, you do not have a criminal, you have a potential child. Good or bad, that is yet to be determined.So? That is simply your anti-abortion argument. But the fact remains, X number of children raised poorly &/or in poverty will become criminals - race be damned.
Conception is not a sentence just because the fetus is in a black mother, ever. So far, you have been the only one implying that.

Um, the obvious inference one should draw from this that is that hard work and responsibility are not parts of African-American culture and isn't instilled in children? I mean, if it's the difference between why African Americans are more likely to be poor than Asian Americans, right?

I reject that.

As a black american male, I know that the cultural difference is true and real, and comes with consequences, such as those being discussed in this thread.

In the majority black culture, hard work=responsibility=acting white.

And very few will stand up to being called "oreo" or told that they are "acting white" or "acting like the man".

I actually worked with a grown man who refused to learn how to use his work station computer because he feared he would become brainwashed and begin thinking like "the man"!

Sorry, accept it. It is true.

absotlutely

there is no way to know what the actual crime rate is when one group gets charged more harshly and convicted more often than another.

not to mention the whole drug crime thing.


Indeed, let's not forget that cocaine (the ultimate rich white shithead's drug) recieves half the sentence of crack cocaine, despite that the potency of cocaine is much higher! Recently, in my town, a large coke bust was made in the rich part of town, and a substantial piece of evidence (the dealer's little black book) were "lost" in the filing.

No, it takes two unrelated bits of data and links them through nothing but theory.


THAT IS STILL SHOWING CORROLATION! Again, just because you don't agree with it, does not mean it isn't showing corrolation. Do you want to see the corrolation, condensed?

Poor people are more likely to have abortions, ergo, more would-be aborted kids would have grown up poor.

Poor people commit more crime.

If less people grow up poor, because many of those kids who would have been poor aren't being born as often, then there will be less crime on average, because less people will grow up poor.

This is the first part of the corrolation, the major one made by freakonomics. Now, its easily tied into racial matters.

If less black babies are being born, who would have been poor, this means more black children will be raised out of poverty.

This, in turn, means that black crime will decrease on average. Now, since black people have more abortions, as well as the fact that black people are more often poor, there will be a greater number of would-be aborted kids who would be criminals who were black, than those that would be white.

You have not argued this corrolation, you simply scream at people being racist.


Unless you point at genetics, you can never say that any fetus was destined to be a criminal. You have not treated it badly yet, you have not failed to educate him yet, you have not raised him in a community of poverty yet, you have not stereotyped his existence as a likely criminal, yet. Until you do, you do not have a criminal, you have a potential child. Good or bad, that is yet to be determined. Conception is not a sentence just because the fetus is in a black mother, ever.

I have never said anything along the lines of destined. I have, REPETEDLY, said more likely! And its true!

What all of us are forgetting is that white delinquents and black delinquents commit the same amount of crime. It's just that black delinquents get caught more often and put on the news more often. This whole notion of extreme levels of black criminality fail to acknowledge those po' white trash kids who are committing the same levels of crime, but rarely get caught. In all the recent school shootings in this country, who have done the shooting? White kids, with the exception of one half-white, half american indian.

So, for every black person rightfully convicted, 5 or 6 are being wrongfully convicted?

Right.

As a black american male, I know that the cultural difference is true and real, and comes with consequences, such as those being discussed in this thread.

In the majority black culture, hard work=responsibility=acting white.

And very few will stand up to being called "oreo" or told that they are "acting white" or "acting like the man".

I actually worked with a grown man who refused to learn how to use his work station computer because he feared he would become brainwashed and begin thinking like "the man"!

Sorry, accept it. It is true.


This raises some interesting points. In California, for instance, the Chinese and Japanese immigrants all have done very well for themselves, while the Cambodian and especially the Laosian populations have done exceedingly poorly. The reasons being that China had a well developed economy, intellectual culture, and centralized government, while the Laosians lived in the middle of the jungle, with no culture of learning and no centralized government. They farmed, and that was it. Now the Chinese that came to Northern California chose urban living and made very good educational and business choices for themselves, while the Laosians work primarily as farm laborers and do not pursue education, even after the fourth and fifth generation!

Now, while I won't blame black people for their current plight (they were forced to be in the position that they currently are by hundreds of years of cultural oppression) I will blame the poor education and even worse incentive programs aimed at changing the culture to one that pursues even some prosperity. More accessible college education, better schools that care primarily about upward mobility, and better public transit will help more than anything to bring the poverty out of the black population. Limiting abortion, however would be the stupidest idea. If someone can't raise their child effectively, then they shouldn't have to raise their child at all. If anything, abortion should cost only $50 for those under the poverty line. Or, better yet, provide adequate birth control for free through local Planned Parenthoods (this is the primary role that Planned offices serve, not abortions).

So, for every black person rightfully convicted, 5 or 6 are being wrongfully convicted?

Right.


No, just for every 6 white people performing crimes, only 1 will get caught. Probably 2 out of 6 black people are wrongly convicted (persuaded by the DA to accept plea charges even if a trial would have landed them scot free, or not be held at all, in which case they would be released.) while the rest get worse charges than the white kids would get.

And I quote:

In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom,
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'.
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished,
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance,
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence.
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.

Bob Dylan, The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll

No, just for every 6 white people performing crimes, only 1 will get caught. Probably 2 out of 6 black people are wrongly convicted (persuaded by the DA to accept plea charges even if a trial would have landed them scot free, or not be held at all, in which case they would be released.) while the rest get worse charges than the white kids would get.

And I quote:

In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom,
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'.
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished,
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance,
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence.
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.

Bob Dylan, The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll

Anything to show those arent just pulled out of your butt?

<snip> Unless you point at genetics, you can never say that any fetus was destined to be a criminal. You have not treated it badly yet, you have not failed to educate him yet, you have not raised him in a community of poverty yet, you have not stereotyped his existence as a likely criminal, yet. Until you do, you do not have a criminal, you have a potential child. Good or bad, that is yet to be determined. <snip>So, you are saying that that aborted Black Child might have grown up to be Martin Luther King? What about the aborted White Child that might have grown up to be Jeffrey Dahlmer?

Your point is irrelevant.

<snip>yes its rather racist to focus on black people when people of all races commit crimes. that is, however, the topic brought up by the original poster not those you are arguing with.

Not quite. Here is the situation:

The OP wondered why African Americans don't make as big of a political deal of Abortion as do (rich) Whites.

Some of us have postulated reasons, including:

AA's, while individually deploring abortion, are, as a group, more concerned with privacy and women's rights (individual rights in general) than the average Fundamentalist (a subset to which AAs generally belong).

AA's, while individually deploring the eugenicist origins of Planned Parenthood and Subsidized Abortion in general, understand the net benefit of not having 3rd-world birth rates and concomitant poverty/crime in their community.

Then there is Greenlander's "reasoning" for calling us bigots:

In Greenlander's world, AA's are too stupid to understand how bad abortion is for them, and anyone who shows any sort of reasoning why AAs might not feel the same way as Greenlander wants to see AA's dead.

Now, which opinion is Racist?

(Using Greenlander's reasoning, I could just as well call him a bigot and anti-semite for refusing to read the well documented - and peer reviewed - work of Mr Levitt. After all, Levitt is a Jewish name, so why read/trust the data eh?) :rolleyes:

Black Americans are disproportionately impacted by the ramifications of abortion, as compared to their non-black counterparts. According to the most recently available data, black mothers end 30.2 of every 1,000 pregnancies in abortion--250% the rate of white mothers. http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031781347267

So even though blacks, as a whole, are impacted so much greater than non-blacks, black leaders (and their followers) seem to be completely ignoring the issue either way. Aside from the fact that I've never seen a black political or religious leader ever speak on the matter, I can't help but think about the one massive pro-life/pro-choice rally I attended in 2002 in Washington D.C. I went for the pro-life rally, obviously, to mark the Roe v. Wade anniversary by marching Washington to the Supreme Court (incidentally, I'd never seen such a freak show. Oddly enough, it actually made me understand the pro-abortion side better because I was like "these lunatics are the ones who agree with me?"--at least until we ran into the pro-choice supporters... they were even more so a bizarre looking/acting bunch. The whole experience was really bizarre, and I wouldn't go again, but I digress...) In an estimated crowd of 120,000 people, in Washington D.C., a city in which 60% of the populations claims black ancestry, I literally did not see a single black person present for either side during the entire course of the day. The only black people I saw on the streets were cops. This is not a statistical anomoly.

The fact is, liberals don't want black people thinking about abortion because if black people were to give abortion much thought they might realize that abortion, a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, has been very bad for African Americans.

A black person, genuinely concerned about the plight of blacks in this country, would have to recognize that they are losing 13 million votes every 30 years... enough to create an additional 20 black electoral votes and to create black majorities in an additional 40 congressional seats.

And liberals don't want black people hearing about those arguments white liberals have with white conservatives about abortion in which the white liberal eventually defends his pro-abortion position by saying, "Well, they'll just grow up poor and be criminals anyway."

This is the irony of it all--given that blacks voted for Al Gore by a ratio of about 10-to-1, if abortion was illegal, Bush wouldn't be President, and liberals wouldn't now be worried about who he's putting on the Supreme Court.

Why are blacks so removed from abortion as a political issue? No one can do anything more than speculate, but it sure seems to me that its because their leadership has voluntarily chosen to turn a blind eye.


I wonder what would happen if instead of looking at race, we looked at class. I'd be willing to bet that statistically, people in the lower classes have abortions more often than people in the upper or middle class. The problem is, that black people make up the majority of lower class citizens in the United States.

I wonder what would happen if instead of looking at race, we looked at class. I'd be willing to bet that statistically, people in the lower classes have abortions more often than people in the upper or middle class. The problem is, that black people make up the majority of lower class citizens in the United States.
Exactly. It's just harder to find a more "monolithic" (in terms of religion anyway) identifiable low SES group.

Predominately Catholic Hispanics (IME) are more vocal about "abortion politics" than AA's - and low SES whites, while not an insubstantial group, are not as politically cohesive (fewer advocacy groups anyway) in "stating their case".

So I still think that, in the large, it is an interesting puzzle.

I wonder what would happen if instead of looking at race, we looked at class. I'd be willing to bet that statistically, people in the lower classes have abortions more often than people in the upper or middle class. The problem is, that black people make up the majority of lower class citizens in the United States.

It's socioeconomic, no question. But it doesn't change the fact that organizations like the NAACP express concern over poverty rates, education levels, unemployment, tobacco use, longevity, incarceration, etc. among blacks, but always sidestep this particular issue that also affects blacks disproportionately.

What's interesting to me is the complete lack of comment on the subject either way. I theorize that there are political reasons that keep this from being addressed, but I won't repeat myself...

It's socioeconomic, no question. But it doesn't change the fact that organizations like the NAACP express concern over poverty rates, education levels, unemployment, tobacco use, longevity, incarceration, etc. among blacks, but always sidestep this particular issue that also affects blacks disproportionately.

What's interesting to me is the complete lack of comment on the subject either way. I theorize that there are political reasons that keep this from being addressed, but I won't repeat myself...
it affects black people disproportionaltely FOR THE BETTER.

women who choose to abort difficult pregnancies go on to have their children in better circumstances. there are no missing black people.

all that is different is that more wanted children and fewer unwanted children are being born.

In Greenlander's world, AA's are too stupid to understand how bad abortion is for them, and anyone who shows any sort of reasoning why AAs might not feel the same way as Greenlander wants to see AA's dead.

Now, which opinion is Racist?

(Using Greenlander's reasoning, I could just as well call him a bigot and anti-semite for refusing to read the well documented - and peer reviewed - work of Mr Levitt. After all, Levitt is a Jewish name, so why read/trust the data eh?) :rolleyes:

Strawman and twaddle... :rolleyes:

You try to completely ignore the fact that 75% of all abortion clinics are located in the African American neighborhoods. Why would the 13% ethnic group of America host the majority of abortion clinics if they weren't targeted?

And I’m accused of ad hominine attacks? Balderdash

You try to completely ignore the fact that 75% of all abortion clinics are located in the African American neighborhoods. Why would the 13% ethnic group of America host the majority of abortion clinics if they weren't targeted?

Capitalism at work, mate. Businesses go where they can make the most money. According to the first post of this topic, African Americans have a much higher abortion rate than Caucasian Americans. Thus, it makes perfect Capitalist sense to put abortion clinics in areas where they'd be readily accessable by African Americans.

Strawman and twaddle... :rolleyes:

You try to completely ignore the fact that 75% of all abortion clinics are located in the African American neighborhoods. Why would the 13% ethnic group of America host the majority of abortion clinics if they weren't targeted? What am I ignoring? That the "clinics" are there because that is where the lower SES neighborhoods in America tend to be? That the "clinics" of which you speak are the ones that operate at low SES prices? That rich white folk don't go to PP "clinics" to have abortions, they go to hospitals?
And I’m accused of ad hominine attacks?Yes. Quite frequently it seems.

BalderdashAs is the rest of your opinion. Care to back any of it up with data?

Capitalism at work, mate. Businesses go where they can make the most money. According to the first post of this topic, African Americans have a much higher abortion rate than Caucasian Americans. Thus, it makes perfect Capitalist sense to put abortion clinics in areas where they'd be readily accessable by African Americans.

Capitalism? Planned Parenthood is supposed to be a non-profit U.S. Government tax-exempt organization, although I admit that they make huge profits.

Capitalism? Planned Parenthood is supposed to be a non-profit U.S. Government tax-exempt organization, although I admit that they make huge profits.

So... uhm... What's your point, then?

So... uhm... What's your point, then?

Their locales are not determined by "Capitalism's" supply and demand.

Their locales are not determined by "Capitalism's" supply and demand.

I see. A profit-making organization attempting to make further profits makes no sense whatsoever, whereas your theory involving a conspiracy to reduce the African American population does. Riiiight.

I see. A profit-making organization attempting to make further profits makes no sense whatsoever, whereas your theory involving a conspiracy to reduce the African American population does. Riiiight.


Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America. 78% of their clinics are in minority communities. Blacks make up 12% of the population, but 35% of the abortions in America. Are we being targeted? Isn't that genocide? We are the only minority in America that is on the decline in population. If the current trend continues, by 2038 the black vote will be insignificant. Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was a devout racist who created the Negro Project designed to sterilize unknowing black women and others she deemed as undesirables of society? The founder of Planned Parenthood said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." Is her vision being fulfilled today?
http://blackgenocide.org/planned.html



http://blackgenocide.org/index.html

what makes you think that the number of black americans in on the decline?

women are having abortions not sterilizations.

if a teenaged girl gets an abortion she still has children later on. she will have "2" kids later when she feels more able to properly care for them. if she is forced to have a baby now, she will have ONE child later to complete her family.

Their locales are not determined by "Capitalism's" supply and demand.

Supply and demand sets prices. Demand sets locale and locale are set that way no matter whethere they are capitalist or not. Are there the same number of hospitals in a ten mile radius in rural South Dakota as in a ten mile radius in New York City? Of course not. Is that set by money? Maybe. But mostly it's set by demand alone. To meet the demand you absolutely have to have more hospitals in New York City than in rural South Dakota. Your point is nonsensical.

Does it occur to you that in order for your point to make any sense at all that you would have to able to guarantee that women who get abortions and then have kids later in life would continue to have those children if the aborted child were born. I knew a group of girls in high school that had each gotten about six abortions a peice. They considered it birth control. It's hard to imagine putting yourself through that as birth control, but that's what happens when parents fight to prevent sex education. Now are you seriously suggesting that by the time these girls left high school they would have each had six children if not for them being 'targeted' by abortion clinics?

What are you going to say next that no one would drink if we just made alcohol illegal and they stopped targeting so many people? Oh, wait, they tried that. See, people don't have to be targeted for services they want. They get them anyway. They just get them illegally.

what makes you think that the number of black americans in on the decline?

women are having abortions not sterilizations.

if a teenaged girl gets an abortion she still has children later on. she will have "2" kids later when she feels more able to properly care for them. if she is forced to have a baby now, she will have ONE child later to complete her family.


I agree he said population, but what I think he's really talking about is percentage of the American population growth rates...


Hispanic 1980 6.4%, 2004 14.2% (up 220%)
Asian 1980 1.5%, 2004 4.2% (up 280%)
African American 1980 11.7%, 2004 12.2% (up 104% but down .1% from a high of 12.3% in 2000)

Supply and demand sets prices. Demand sets locale and locale are set that way no matter whethere they are capitalist or not. Are there the same number of hospitals in a ten mile radius in rural South Dakota as in a ten mile radius in New York City? Of course not. Is that set by money? Maybe. But mostly it's set by demand alone. To meet the demand you absolutely have to have more hospitals in New York City than in rural South Dakota. Your point is nonsensical.

We are not talking about hospitals, we are talking about abortion clinics. Abortion clinics are not predominately found in poor or high population centers as a rule, they are disproportionately found in African American poor and high population centers by a 3 to 1 margin.

you know that hispanics and asians have shown great population growth because of immigration not brithrate dont you?

i dont know what the immigration rates from africa are like but with the need for strict aids testing to get in, i think its probably pretty low.

you know that hispanics and asians have shown great population growth because of immigration not brithrate dont you?

i dont know what the immigration rates from africa are like but with the need for strict aids testing to get in, i think its probably pretty low.

Somalia, Ethiopia... Hispanic and Asian abortion rates are less than half of the African American abortion rates.

We are not talking about hospitals, we are talking about abortion clinics. Abortion clinics are not predominately found in poor or high population centers as a rule, they are disproportionately found in African American poor and high population centers by a 3 to 1 margin.

They are found where they are in demand. Let me explain how businesses work. Even non-profit ones. If I have a staff of eight and I get so many customers that I need a staff of nine. Then I hire another person (provided I can afford it - which with an abortion clinic I obviously can). Once I can't hire any more people in that business, I open another one, and so on. If there are more it's because they're being used. They're not just throwing away money. There are more liquor stores in those neighborhoods too. Do you think they just open them and let them go broke? They open them because there is a demand so they bring a supply. The demand doesn't go away just because the supply disappears. With services like abortion, the existence of clinics didn't create the demand, the existence of the demand created the clinics

To say otherwise is a conspiracy theory and you are no where near showing any support for such a theory. You might as well be trying to sell us on area 51. You have about the same amount of evidence.

Somalia, Ethiopia... Hispanic and Asian abortion rates are less than half of the African American abortion rates.
what does that have to do with anything?

abortion does not affect the birth rate. it only affects the number of unwanted children being born.

Maybe I'm missing something, but perhaps people are more likely to abort kids that they're not going to be able to afford to feed or raise? I'm dubious that there's any sinister conspiracy at work here. If there was, the left would be urging for these kids to be born, for the politoical reasons you've mentioned.
This applies to the minority of abortions. The vast number of abortions are for mothers who simply don't want to be pregnats and chose abortion as a form of birth control.

This applies to all abortions, not just those by black women!

Somalia, Ethiopia... Hispanic and Asian abortion rates are less than half of the African American abortion rates.

Wait, Somalians and Ethiopians aren't African Americans? What are they then? See how you skew the facts? So black immigrants don't count towards population growth but hispanics and Asians do?

Also, you have yet to show the causality between abortion and population growth. Can you show that black women who have abortions have less children then black women who don't? You might think it's obvious, but it's not. Because abortion does not render you sterile and you can and often still do have the same number of children. A friend of mine got an abortion at sixteen and she is now married with five children. There is no evidence to suggest she would have had six kids total without the abortion and she, in fact, would not have gone to college and met her husband so one might argue that she would have had less children without the abortion. Show causality. You've only attacked people for being racist, but the only one guilty of stereotyping and having an agenda is you. In fact, you've implied that all I have to do is wave an abortion in front of a black woman and she just can't help herself. I'd say that's more racist than anything anyone else in this thread has said.

This applies to the minority of abortions. The vast number of abortions are for mothers who simply don't want to be pregnats and chose abortion as a form of birth control.

This applies to all abortions, not just those by black women!
*gives snow the look*

most women who have abortions were using birth control when they got pregnant

some tiny minority (in the US at least) use abortion in lieu of other birth control. for most women the experience is too awful to want to go through again.

I find it hard to see liberals avoiding something due to religious reasons...

If that wasn't a joke, it's just plain sad that someone thinks that way.
You see, liverals are still allowed to be religious in the United States of Halliburton. They just don't worship the Almighty Dollar. :headbang:

Wait, Somalians and Ethiopians aren't African Americans? What are they then? See how you skew the facts? So black immigrants don't count towards population growth but hispanics and Asians do?

I was pointing out that the immigration from Africa IS still active, the quote I was talking to said Hispanics and Asians were immigrating and Africans had to be checked for aids :rolleyes: ... Did you point out the error of that? No. Did you totally ignore the post I was talking to? Yes.

Also, you have yet to show the causality between abortion and population growth. Can you show that black women who have abortions have less children then black women who don't? You might think it's obvious, but it's not. Because abortion does not render you sterile and you can and often still do have the same number of children. A friend of mine got an abortion at sixteen and she is now married with five children. There is no evidence to suggest she would have had six kids total without the abortion and she, in fact, would not have gone to college and met her husband so one might argue that she would have had less children without the abortion. Show causality. You've only attacked people for being racist, but the only one guilty of stereotyping and having an agenda is you. In fact, you've implied that all I have to do is wave an abortion in front of a black woman and she just can't help herself. I'd say that's more racist than anything anyone else in this thread has said.

African American women are THREE times more likely than other American women to get an abortion. What part of 300% needs to be "causality" for you to get it?

Look, I'm not the only one that sees this stuff... more African American's who have talked about this...

When liberal racists defend abortion as a way to help blacks, I challenge them to show me the bodies of the dead African American children the abortionists have helped.

When a plantation Negro says he supports abortion because he cares about the sisters, mothers and daughters, he is a hypocrite of the lowest order. To deny the next generation of brothers and sisters the right to exist is the ultimate self-destructing mechanism in the African American community.

When two out of every three minority babies are aborted, it doesn't take a mathematical genius to understand the effect this will have on the minority race in the United States of America.
Rev. Johnny Hunter

Planned Parenthood, the intellectual and philosophical stepchild of eugenicist and racist Margaret Sanger, has located 78% of their facilities in minority communities. No surprise there. Black pro-life organizations estimate that there have been 15 million fewer black births since Roe v. Wade. By 2038, if current population and immigration trends continue the black vote, a current source of political influence, will become insignificant. There are omens of this trend in the attention the Hispanics are getting from the dominant parties…

The twin evils of unrestrained promiscuity and abortion are decimating a people on the eve of ever-greater achievements. Between the holocaust of AIDS in Africa and African-American abortion, the words "black death" once referring to the Bubonic Plague has taken on a new and horrifically modern definition. Of all the challenges faced by black people in America, abortion is among the greatest and most destructive. Nothing less than the future of Black Americans may be at stake.
Margaret Sanger must be smiling.
Brad Lena, Mr. Lena is a regular contributor to BlackElectorate.com and is based in Asheville, NC and can be reached at blena@mindspring.com

what does that have to do with anything?

abortion does not affect the birth rate. it only affects the number of unwanted children being born.

Didn't I just show you that double growth rates for two other minority groups that have half the abortion rate as African Americans? Why yes, yes I did. And now you say there is no affect of abortion on the birth rate? What do you call it? I call it a solid correlation.

I was pointing out that the immigration from Africa IS still active, the quote I was talking to said Hispanics and Asians were immigrating and Africans had to be checked for aids :rolleyes: ... Did you point out the error of that? No. Did you totally ignore the post I was talking to? Yes.



African American women are THREE times more likely than other American women to get an abortion. What part of 300% needs to be "causality" for you to get it?

Look, I'm not the only one that sees this stuff... more African American's who have talked about this...

When liberal racists defend abortion as a way to help blacks, I challenge them to show me the bodies of the dead African American children the abortionists have helped.

When a plantation Negro says he supports abortion because he cares about the sisters, mothers and daughters, he is a hypocrite of the lowest order. To deny the next generation of brothers and sisters the right to exist is the ultimate self-destructing mechanism in the African American community.

When two out of every three minority babies are aborted, it doesn't take a mathematical genius to understand the effect this will have on the minority race in the United States of America.
Rev. Johnny Hunter

Planned Parenthood, the intellectual and philosophical stepchild of eugenicist and racist Margaret Sanger, has located 78% of their facilities in minority communities. No surprise there. Black pro-life organizations estimate that there have been 15 million fewer black births since Roe v. Wade. By 2038, if current population and immigration trends continue the black vote, a current source of political influence, will become insignificant. There are omens of this trend in the attention the Hispanics are getting from the dominant parties…

The twin evils of unrestrained promiscuity and abortion are decimating a people on the eve of ever-greater achievements. Between the holocaust of AIDS in Africa and African-American abortion, the words "black death" once referring to the Bubonic Plague has taken on a new and horrifically modern definition. Of all the challenges faced by black people in America, abortion is among the greatest and most destructive. Nothing less than the future of Black Americans may be at stake.
Margaret Sanger must be smiling.
Brad Lena, Mr. Lena is a regular contributor to BlackElectorate.com and is based in Asheville, NC and can be reached at blena@mindspring.com
Sigh. Oh boy. You found two quotes and a tinfoil hat site. The African American population is in no way decreasing - and its increase has little to do with immigration. There is no "Black Death". If there were, you better believe Jessie would have mentioned it - incessantly - bynow.

Again, the question is, Why, with the exception of the tinfoil hat brigade, do we not here from MORE blacks if your (or the other tinfoiler's) premise is true? Hell most of the time you can's shut Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton or Farakahn up... but on this issue they are strangely quiet... and don't even try to rouse the masses from behind the curtain.

Margaret Sanger's socio/political euginicist motives are not in question, they are historical fact, but in no way did she have the power to set up all you claim as the vast PlannedParenthood Genocidal Conspiracy.

Didn't I just show you that double growth rates for two other minority groups that have half the abortion rate as African Americans? Why yes, yes I did. And now you say there is no affect of abortion on the birth rate? What do you call it? I call it a solid correlation.
Growth rate =/= birth rate.

Growth Rate = Birth Rate + Immigration Rate - Death Rate

Birth Rate = Births/1000 people

Abortion affects both the Growth Rate and the birth rate.

You really need to learn math.

Why don't we try this experiment:
Quit your job and move into a 3 room flat.
Pop down to your State's Child Welfare Service office and request to Adopt 10 or 12 poor kids ranging from infancy to pre-teen.
Do not ask for public assistance, because we know you can afford them.

Do you think the State will find you fit enough to raise a dozen children?

I don't think so and neither do the low SES women who take the decision to abort.

But, be a good "compassionate" whitey and contneue to suggest that 3rd-world birth rates and malnourished children is a good idea... Hell, that almost makes you sound like a Liberal - 'cause it will mean MORE tax dollars will have to go to help feed the buggers. Good on ya Greenie. You just officially joined the Nanny Staters. :rolleyes:

Sigh. Oh boy. You found two quotes and a tinfoil hat site. The African American population is in no way decreasing - and its increase has little to do with immigration. There is no "Black Death". If there were, you better believe Jessie would have mentioned it - incessantly - bynow.

Again, the question is, Why, with the exception of the tinfoil hat brigade, do we not here from MORE blacks if your (or the other tinfoiler's) premise is true? Hell most of the time you can's shut Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton or Farakahn up... but on this issue they are strangely quiet... and don't even try to rouse the masses from behind the curtain.


You sit there and say that I don’t have enough prominent African American leaders advocating my cause and that somehow this invalidates what I have to say, and pretend that you’re not all racist is beyond me. But here’s a few anyway, even though I should never have had to identify ‘racial’ allies

1) Alan Keyes has garnered a significant amount of media coverage for his opposition to abortion.
2) Mildred Jefferson can rightly be called the matriarch of the African American prolife movement
3) Kay Cole James served under President Reagan as a member of the White House Task Force for the Black Family and commissioner of the National Commission on Children.
4) Star Parker is a veteran conservative activist who is best known for her anti- welfare activism.
5) Paulette Roseboro, a single mother of two daughters who quit her job in the federal government to pursue anti-abortion activism full time founded the AALA (African American Life Alliance).

Birth Rate = Births/1000 people

The abortion rate for African-American women is significantly higher than the rates for other ethnic groups is clear. Over the years 1972-2000, according to the Statistical Abstract of the United States, the rate of abortions for white mothers in 1972 was 11.8 per 1000, increasing to the highest rate in 1980 and 1981 of 24.3 per 1000. Since then the rate has dropped so that it was 15 per 1000 in 2000. For African-American and "other" mothers, however (the Statistical Abstract labels the category "Black and other"), the rate was 21.7 per 1000 in 1972. It swelled to 49.3 per 1000 in 1975, a few years after 1973 when abortion was legalized throughout the entire nine months of pregnancy by the Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton decisions. The rate peaked in 1977 at 59 per 1000. Although it has dropped since then, the abortion rate for African-American and "other" mothers was 45.7 per 1000 as of 2000. These figures corroborate the popular perception -- "popular" in the sense that it is an axiom of common knowledge in contemporary society -- that the abortion rate for African-American mothers being three times that of white mothers is highly probable. The trend is further illustrated in a companion table in the Statistical Abstract covering abortion data from 1990 to 2000. The number of abortions performed on white mothers dropped from 1,039,000 to 733,000 while the number of abortions for "black and other" mothers increased from 570,000 to 580,000.


You really need to learn math.

Do it yourself (see above)



But, be a good "compassionate" whitey and contneue to suggest that 3rd-world birth rates and malnourished children is a good idea... Hell, that almost makes you sound like a Liberal - 'cause it will mean MORE tax dollars will have to go to help feed the buggers. Good on ya Greenie. You just officially joined the Nanny Staters. :rolleyes:

You said it yourself. You'd rather they were dead than on welfare. :mad:

Didn't I just show you that double growth rates for two other minority groups that have half the abortion rate as African Americans? Why yes, yes I did. And now you say there is no affect of abortion on the birth rate? What do you call it? I call it a solid correlation.
go look up current birth rates for blacks, hispanics and asians. THEN we can see if that is the cause of the 2 groups growing so much faster than the one

i would suggest that its a combination of immigration of hispanics and asians coupled with the higher death rate among black americans.

Didn't I just show you that double growth rates for two other minority groups that have half the abortion rate as African Americans? Why yes, yes I did. And now you say there is no affect of abortion on the birth rate? What do you call it? I call it a solid correlation.

Let me explain the concept of causality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality):

Suppose I find that over the last few years crime rates have been going down. I then find out that over that same period Halley's Comet has been getting closer to the sun. If I plot the two on a graph, I will find remarkable correlation.

But I could not conclude that Halley's Comet has somehow been affecting crime rates. Just because two things correlate does not mean one is causing the other.

Same goes for your findings. Abortion rates correlate with population growth. I'm sure an infinite number of variables do. But that does not mean one has been responsible for the other.

To prove causality you have to establish a causal relationship between the two variables and conduct an experiment eliminating all other causal relationships.

The fact is, liberals don't want black people thinking about abortion because if black people were to give abortion much thought they might realize that abortion, a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, has been very bad for African Americans.

Wow. It's difficult to respond to that at all without resorting to inflamatory language like:

idiot
racist
shallow
transparant
uneducated
unenlightened
ridiculous
moron
and many, many more.

To say any specific group shouldn't support the right to a particular freedom because that group is statistically more likely to be smart enough and socially mature enough to take advantage of the right to it shows an incredible willingness to presume everyone shares your mythologically founded views on reality.

The entire issue is over-done. Abortion shouldn't be an option except to save a life.

Let me explain the concept of causality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality):

Suppose I find that over the last few years crime rates have been going down. I then find out that over that same period Halley's Comet has been getting closer to the sun. If I plot the two on a graph, I will find remarkable correlation.

But I could not conclude that Halley's Comet has somehow been affecting crime rates. Just because two things correlate does not mean one is causing the other.

Same goes for your findings. Abortion rates correlate with population growth. I'm sure an infinite number of variables do. But that does not mean one has been responsible for the other.

To prove causality you have to establish a causal relationship between the two variables and conduct an experiment eliminating all other causal relationships.

Actually, your point suggests what I was trying to say about the crime rate and African American Abortions pages ago.

The entire reason I got in this thread at all is because some Jackass said that African Americans should be happy about their high abortion rate because it correlates with a lowering of the crime rate... I re-submit your post as an argument against that rationale that got me started.

Of the five "prominent" people you mention, I only recognize Alan Keyes and Starr Parker. And neither have the earof the US public at large or are identified as "speaking for" the larger AA comunity. Funny that. :rolleyes:

The abortion rate <snip screed>And what exactly did that have to do with "Birth Rate = Births/1000 people"?

Do it yourself (see above)Sorry, aparantly people from Uranus have their head so far up their planet that that they post screeds about abortion rates to negate posts about birth rates. I'm from Earth, so I just can't think like that. We have already said quite plainly that we know that abortion rates are higher amone African Americans - primarily because there are so many AA's living in low SES areas. What's your point?

You said it yourself. You'd rather they were dead than on welfare. :mad:Nice way to pull that out of context. I would actually rather they not be born than be trapped in poverty. Until some major changes occur in the urban black community, "trapped in poverty" is where the majority will stay - unless they get killed by their peers or go to jail.

You are also operating under the (legally) false assumption that abortion is murder. Abortions are simply that, abortions, not murdered children.

So unborn children (not murdered children) are, in fact, better than starving children. Whether being unborn comes from proper contraceptive practices by unwed/unstable couples or from the choice to abort is immaterial.

<snip>Abortion clinics are not predominately found in poor or high population centers as a rule, they are disproportionately found in African American poor and high population centers by a 3 to 1 margin. :confused: Please explain which poor, high population center is NOT an "AA poor, high population center. Head to your planet again I see.

Why don't you actually try to stay on topic rather than push your agenda?

If you can show evidence of an African American abortion (pro or anti) movement that rivals the white ones, post it. That is what the OP was wondering about. We, thus far, have not seen evidence of one - on either side. The Protests all look pretty lilly white for being so such an "anti-black" issue. :rolleyes:

Actually, your point suggests what I was trying to say about the crime rate and African American Abortions pages ago. Except that for "Legal Abortion = Less Crime" causality has been proven - and peer reviewed - and your assertions have not.
The entire reason I got in this thread at all is because some JackassAd Hominium Flame said that African Americans should be happy about their high abortion rate No, Chellis (and I) said that it is a possibility that they might not consider aortion to be a bad thing (and therefore don't actively protest it). Only in Greenlander's World does that imply that they are happy about it. :rolleyes: because it correlates with a lowering of the crime rate... Causality was proven through multiple regression analysis across multiple feilds. I re-submit your post as an argument against that rationale that got me started.Why? All it does is prove how unresearched and infantile your position is...

Of the five "prominent" people you mention, I only recognize Alan Keyes and Starr Parker. And neither have the earof the US public at large or are identified as "speaking for" the larger AA comunity. Funny that. :rolleyes:

Oh, excuse me, African American leaders aren't African American leader unless you personally have heard of them... Nice. :rolleyes:

And what exactly did that have to do with "Birth Rate = Births/1000 people"?

Abortion rate break down by the #/1000 for whites, blacks and years... and yet, you're still ignorant. :rolleyes:

Sorry, aparantly people from Uranus have their head so far up their planet that that they post screeds about abortion rates to negate posts about birth rates. I'm from Earth, so I just can't think like that.

Nice.

Nice way to pull that out of context. I would actually rather they not be born than be trapped in poverty. Until some major changes occur in the urban black community, "trapped in poverty" is where the majority will stay - unless they get killed by their peers or go to jail.

I pulled nothing out of context. You're saying their mother's are aborting criminals, you said it again here about them killing each other or going to jail based on nothing except for the fact that their mothers are black and they got an abortion, and yet, I will get 'banned' if I point out that this is a racist bigoted statement... nice.

You are also operating under the (legally) false assumption that abortion is murder. Abortions are simply that, abortions, not murdered children.

So unborn children (not murdered children) are, in fact, better than starving children. Whether being unborn comes from proper contraceptive practices by unwed/unstable couples or from the choice to abort is immaterial.

Are you saying that African American Mothers don't feed their babies in America? Why do you call them starving?

:confused: Please explain which poor, high population center is NOT an "AA poor, high population center. Head to your planet again I see.

Now THAT's revealing. You don't think there are non-African American poor peoples... It's all the African Americans, they're just holding you all back, you would be so much better off if they didn't have children at all because they all end up on welfare anyway or shooting themselves, better to pay for their abortions you say... and yet again, I'll be banned if I point out that this statement too is racist...


If you can show evidence of an African American abortion (pro or anti) movement that rivals the white ones, post it. That is what the OP was wondering about. We, thus far, have not seen evidence of one - on either side. The Protests all look pretty lilly white for being so such an "anti-black" issue. :rolleyes:

Yup, you must be right. African Americans would be in your face arguing with you about abortion if they thought planned parenthood isolates and centers on their communities if was true...

I was pointing out that the immigration from Africa IS still active, the quote I was talking to said Hispanics and Asians were immigrating and Africans had to be checked for aids :rolleyes: ... Did you point out the error of that? No. Did you totally ignore the post I was talking to? Yes.



African American women are THREE times more likely than other American women to get an abortion. What part of 300% needs to be "causality" for you to get it?

Look, I'm not the only one that sees this stuff... more African American's who have talked about this...

When liberal racists defend abortion as a way to help blacks, I challenge them to show me the bodies of the dead African American children the abortionists have helped.

When a plantation Negro says he supports abortion because he cares about the sisters, mothers and daughters, he is a hypocrite of the lowest order. To deny the next generation of brothers and sisters the right to exist is the ultimate self-destructing mechanism in the African American community.

When two out of every three minority babies are aborted, it doesn't take a mathematical genius to understand the effect this will have on the minority race in the United States of America.
Rev. Johnny Hunter

Planned Parenthood, the intellectual and philosophical stepchild of eugenicist and racist Margaret Sanger, has located 78% of their facilities in minority communities. No surprise there. Black pro-life organizations estimate that there have been 15 million fewer black births since Roe v. Wade. By 2038, if current population and immigration trends continue the black vote, a current source of political influence, will become insignificant. There are omens of this trend in the attention the Hispanics are getting from the dominant parties…

The twin evils of unrestrained promiscuity and abortion are decimating a people on the eve of ever-greater achievements. Between the holocaust of AIDS in Africa and African-American abortion, the words "black death" once referring to the Bubonic Plague has taken on a new and horrifically modern definition. Of all the challenges faced by black people in America, abortion is among the greatest and most destructive. Nothing less than the future of Black Americans may be at stake.
Margaret Sanger must be smiling.
Brad Lena, Mr. Lena is a regular contributor to BlackElectorate.com and is based in Asheville, NC and can be reached at blena@mindspring.com

I'll talk slowly. The fact that it exists does not prove causality. Read that slowly.

People wear shoes. Some of those people get broken ankles. Yep, must have been the shoes breaking those ankles.

Show that the decline is caused by abortion. Show that it started when abortion went up to that rate. Show that it started when abortion was legalized. Show that women who get abortions have less children. Show ANYTHING. You've shown nothing and you expect us to buy into your conspiracy theories. They're ridiculous. The fact that other people believe the government are hiding aliens doesn't prove it.

I'll talk slowly. The fact that it exists does not prove causality. Read that slowly.

People wear shoes. Some of those people get broken ankles. Yep, must have been the shoes breaking those ankles.

Show that the decline is caused by abortion. *snip* blah blah blah

"I'll talk slowly," my ass. I've been called a Uranus with my head up my planet and then this, What kind of condescending prick ass comment is that?

How about you spend some time showing the causation between the claim that the abortions by African American women are the abortions of African American criminals (the whole point that got this discussion started).

For you all to sit around claiming that it's good for African Americans to have abortions because it decreases the number of African American criminals seems to be all fine and dandy with the Mods around here, and I’m the one that gets warned because I said it's a bigoted racist argument and somehow me saying that is an ad hominine attack... whatever.

Great… African American women having a 3 to 1 ratio of abortion is good thing. 75% of all abortion clinics are maintained in African American neighborhoods because those are the people that want abortions…

Fine. Bigots :rolleyes:



"Prejudice and poverty have kept the Black family in a powerless state. Now the womb of the Black woman is seen as the latest battleground for oppression. This deliberate killing of Black babies in abortion is genocide, the most overt form of all. As a Black, Protestant social worker of forty years experience in poor communities, I demand an immediate halt to this genocide."
--Erma Clardy Craven
Author, "Abortion, Poverty and Black Genocide"

"Cowardice asks the question, 'is it safe?'; expediency asks the question 'is it politic?'; vanity asks the question 'is it popular?', but conscience asks the question "is it right?' and there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but because - conscience tells one it is right."
--Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"The United States government through its Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion has established a policy to outright murder unborn babies. Black women and girls are being barraged with propaganda by doctors, social workers, women liberationists and others to murder babies in their womb."
--Minister George
4X Temple No. 46, Nation of Islam

"Yesterday they snatched the babies from our arms and sold them into slavery, today they cut them out of our womb and throw them in the garbage. Abortion, Black genocide, provided free of charge by a racist society."
--Dolores Bernadette Grier
President, Black Catholics Against Abortion

I love how the white male that is saying African-American women are too stupid to make a rational choice about abortion is accusing everyone else of being a bigot.

Sorry, charlie, we believe in freedom for all women -- even the dark ones.

Actually, your point suggests what I was trying to say about the crime rate and African American Abortions pages ago.

The entire reason I got in this thread at all is because some Jackass said that African Americans should be happy about their high abortion rate because it correlates with a lowering of the crime rate... I re-submit your post as an argument against that rationale that got me started.

Well then, glad we're in agreement on that.

I'm pretty sure the original comment that started all this was referencing genocide, ie the elimination of the African-American ethnic group through forced abortions (Unless he thought "aborting all black babies" would be a consentual policy).

Since I used to be a black baby, the comment did perk my ears a bit. I was sort of thinking "why would someone casually mention the hypothetical genocide of my race?"

I love how the white male that is saying African-American women are too stupid to make a rational choice about abortion is accusing everyone else of being a bigot.

Sorry, charlie, we believe in freedom for all women -- even the dark ones.

Is this a discussion about abortion rights? No. :rolleyes:

Is this a discussion about abortion rights? No. :rolleyes:

Um, yes, it is. Read the OP again.

You've gotten so caught up in your own circular reasoning you've forgotten what the point was.

Regardless, nice attempt to dodge my point. I must have struck a little too deep for you to respond directly.

Well then, glad we're in agreement on that.

I'm pretty sure the original comment that started all this was referencing genocide, ie the elimination of the African-American ethnic group through forced abortions (Unless he thought "aborting all black babies" would be a consentual policy).

Since I used to be a black baby, the comment did perk my ears a bit. I was sort of thinking "why would someone casually mention the hypothetical genocide of my race?"

This is what I got started on about. The assumption that aborted African American fetuses are/would-be predominately criminals simply because their mothers are African American amd they chose to get an abortion...

I would say that black people having abortions more often is a good thing.

Case in point: There is strong statistical evidence showing abortion leads to lower crime rate.

Black people have a bad, and unwarranted in general, stereotype of being criminals.

If these abortions are lowering the number of criminals, especially for black people, then thats one step closer to getting rid of these stereotypes.

I fail to see how its harming blacks.

Um, yes, it is. Read the OP again.

You've gotten so caught up in your own circular reasoning you've forgotten what the point was.

Regardless, nice attempt to dodge my point. I must have struck a little too deep for you to respond directly.

Why don't you try reading the pages since page 3... before you get all smug

This is what I got started on about. The assumption that aborted African American fetuses are/would-be predominately criminals simply because their mothers are African American amd they chose to get an abortion...

I would say that black people having abortions more often is a good thing.

Case in point: There is strong statistical evidence showing abortion leads to lower crime rate.

Black people have a bad, and unwarranted in general, stereotype of being criminals.

If these abortions are lowering the number of criminals, especially for black people, then thats one step closer to getting rid of these stereotypes.

I fail to see how its harming blacks.

Re-read those points. First, no one said anything (as Khudros thought) about forced abortions.

Second, contrary to your implication, the argument expressly says that blacks are not predominately criminals. It says they are perceived as such.

Third, it refers to abortions of babies from all races as being good for blacks -- not just the abortion of black babies.

(I'm not defending the argument as such, just pointing out that you are arguing against a strawman.)

Why don't you try reading the pages since page 3... before you get all smug

I've read the entire argument. At points, you were almost lucid.

But you are still dodging my point: African-American women are just as capable as any other women to make rational decisions about abortion. Your belief to the contary is racist.

Re-read those points. First, no one said anything (as Khudros thought) about forced abortions.

Second, contrary to your implication, the argument expressly says that blacks are not predominately criminals. It says they are perceived as such.

Third, it refers to abortions of babies from all races as being good for blacks -- not just the abortion of black babies.

(I'm not defending the argument as such, just pointing out that you are arguing against a strawman.)

No this all goes way way back to something said about a week ago on a conservative talkshow. The guy said something like "If all black babies were aborted then the crime rate would go down."

For some reason this initiated a nuclear firestorm amongst the NS community that has yet to die down. Charges of racism and counter-racism and anti-counter-racism littered the forums.

Oh, excuse me, African American leaders aren't African American leader unless you personally have heard of them... Nice. :rolleyes: Since the issue is public outcry, and I'm about as joe average as you can get - AND live in a largely African American community... you're damn skippy.
Abortion rate break down by the #/1000 for whites, blacks and years... and yet, you're still ignorant. :rolleyes: Abortion Rate =/= Birth Rate. How hard is that to understand?
Nice.And, given your above statement, apparantly appropriate.
I pulled nothing out of context. You're saying their mother's are aborting criminals, you said it again here about them killing each other or going to jail based on nothing except for the fact that their mothers are black and they got an abortion, How about that I said ""trapped in poverty" is where the majority will stay - unless they get killed by their peers or go to jail.".. Lets parse that shall we? I know gramatical structure, syntax and semantics are hard for you, so I will try to make it simple:

"the majority" - meaning a large portion of, but not all, children born to low SES African American mothers

"will stay trapped in poverty" - a statement of fact verified over the past 50+ years. When combined with "the majority" infers a belief that some will escape "the trap" by a one or another means.

"unless they get killed or go to jail" - also a statement of fact. A percentage of those who do not make it out of poverty will, in fact, be killed and/or go to jail.
and yet, I will get 'banned' if I point out that this is a racist bigoted statement... nice. Because it is obviously neither, despite your assertions.
Are you saying that African American Mothers don't feed their babies in America? Why do you call them starving?Have you ever heard of the malnourishment problem in the inner cities? No? Then shut up. It is without question that low SES people, whatever color they are, wherever they may be, have a hard time feeding their children - no matter how hard they try. The more children, the harder it is and the larger the likelyhood of malnourishment - i.e. starvation.
Now THAT's revealing. You don't think there are non-African American poor peoples... You really need to pull your head out. I in no way said that. Nor did you answer my question. Which poor urban centers in the US do not contain low SES African Americans (among all its low SES urban residents)? Simple question. You seem to believe there are some.
It's all the African Americans, they're just holding you all back, you would be so much better off if they didn't have children at all because they all end up on welfare anyway or shooting themselves, better to pay for their abortions you say... and yet again, I'll be banned if I point out that this statement too is racist...Probably because you are toe only one saying it... :rolleyes:
Yup, you must be right. African Americans would be in your face arguing with you about abortion if they thought planned parenthood isolates and centers on their communities if was true...Which was precicely the point of the Thread. Why aren't they? Where are the Black protestors outside the clinics? What do they see that you don't? (Or, what seems more fitting to your attitude, "Why are they too stupid not to see what Greenlander sees?") :rolleyes:

Re-read those points. First, no one said anything (as Khudros thought) about forced abortions.

Second, contrary to your implication, the argument expressly says that blacks are not predominately criminals. It says they are perceived as such.

Third, it refers to abortions of babies from all races as being good for blacks -- not just the abortion of black babies.

(I'm not defending the argument as such, just pointing out that you are arguing against a strawman.)
I pointed that out once already Cat. Head-Planet intersection is plugging up Greenie's ears.

OK, the comment by Bill Bennett that got ALL of this started was: "But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down."

Now, my deduction was simply the following: "aborting every black baby" would be impossible without forcing a lot of people to have abortions. And since the logical result of banning black procreation would be the eventual extinction of black people, such a policy would be genocide.

A good analogy would be if the Nazis, instead of going through the ugliness of killing all jews, made a law banning jews from having children. The end result would be the same, though it would take about a generation of enforcement to accomplish. IMO it would still be genocide.


BUT, if abortion is consensual, and if it just so happens to reduce Black America's population as an unintended consequence, then no one can be reasonably accused of committing genocide. And I am reasonably confident that nobody out there is pushing for more abortions as part of a dastardly scheme to wipe out the black race. If someone were then that would be, as Bennett admitted, morally reprehensible. But I don't think that sort of maliciousness is present.

Black people are under-represented in every issue. Why should abortion eb any different?

Read this one…
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v17n3/v17n3.pdf

Or this more recent stuff:
http://www.afajournal.org/2005/march/3.05pro-life_AA.asp

When the NAACP took an official position in favor of abortion in early 2004 (which it has since quietly rescinded), a poll conducted by Black Enterprise Magazine found that 60% of African Americans disapproved of that decision.

More stuff:

http://afgen.com/black_abortion2.html

http://afgen.com/populate.html

The African-American church has been mute on the topic of abortion because of “a political tie where the Democratic Party became bigger than our God.” Blacks embraced the Democrats’ agenda, Childress said, because Democrats were seen as facilitators of the civil-rights movement while Republicans were seen as those “nasty white bigots who are out to oppress us.” In embracing the Democratic agenda, however, African- Americans have also accepted values that are contrary to their heritage. Voting trends in the 2004 presidential election showed signs of change. With Democrats promoting positions often abhorred by African-Americans, such as support for gay marriage, pro-life politicians received increasing African-American support. For example, 17 percent of New Jersey African- Americans voted for President Bush in 2004 compared to only 8 percent in 2000.

Read this one…
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v17n3/v17n3.pdf

Or this more recent stuff:
http://www.afajournal.org/2005/march/3.05pro-life_AA.asp

When the NAACP took an official position in favor of abortion in early 2004 (which it has since quietly rescinded), a poll conducted by Black Enterprise Magazine found that 60% of African Americans disapproved of that decision.

More stuff:

http://afgen.com/black_abortion2.html

http://afgen.com/populate.html

The African-American church has been mute on the topic of abortion because of “a political tie where the Democratic Party became bigger than our God.” Blacks embraced the Democrats’ agenda, Childress said, because Democrats were seen as facilitators of the civil-rights movement while Republicans were seen as those “nasty white bigots who are out to oppress us.” In embracing the Democratic agenda, however, African- Americans have also accepted values that are contrary to their heritage. Voting trends in the 2004 presidential election showed signs of change. With Democrats promoting positions often abhorred by African-Americans, such as support for gay marriage, pro-life politicians received increasing African-American support. For example, 17 percent of New Jersey African- Americans voted for President Bush in 2004 compared to only 8 percent in 2000.


Your last statement is pointing out that more blacks are voting Republican. That's an interesting trend.

However, while one may be morally against something like abortion, when it comes down to brass tacks, people often do the opposite of what they gave as a poll answer.

To see if anyone is really against abortion, you have to count the number of abortions in that group.

Just saying you are against abortion and find it abhorrent doesn't mean that you won't go get one, or pay for a daughter or girlfriend to get one.

It's called the difference between poll numbers and real life.

The abortion rate for African-American women is significantly higher than the rates for other ethnic groups is clear. Over the years 1972-2000, according to the Statistical Abstract of the United States, the rate of abortions for white mothers in 1972 was 11.8 per 1000, increasing to the highest rate in 1980 and 1981 of 24.3 per 1000. Since then the rate has dropped so that it was 15 per 1000 in 2000. For African-American and "other" mothers, however (the Statistical Abstract labels the category "Black and other"), the rate was 21.7 per 1000 in 1972. It swelled to 49.3 per 1000 in 1975, a few years after 1973 when abortion was legalized throughout the entire nine months of pregnancy by the Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton decisions. The rate peaked in 1977 at 59 per 1000. Although it has dropped since then, the abortion rate for African-American and "other" mothers was 45.7 per 1000 as of 2000. These figures corroborate the popular perception -- "popular" in the sense that it is an axiom of common knowledge in contemporary society -- that the abortion rate for African-American mothers being three times that of white mothers is highly probable. The trend is further illustrated in a companion table in the Statistical Abstract covering abortion data from 1990 to 2000. The number of abortions performed on white mothers dropped from 1,039,000 to 733,000 while the number of abortions for "black and other" mothers increased from 570,000 to 580,000.




Do it yourself (see above)




You said it yourself. You'd rather they were dead than on welfare. :mad:

Man, it's so frustrating that you can't seem to get basic concepts. BIRTH RATE. BIRTH RATE. BIRTH RATE. Where does you post address BIRTH RATE? Have you shown that as abortions increased that BIRTH RATE decreased by the same amount? Nope. Have you shown that the immigration rates for the other groups you compared blacks to are equal to that of blacks? Nope. Have you shown that during the period as populations increased that the average life expectancy of all groups has either remained the same or increased at the same pace? Nope. Have you shown that there aren't a dozen other explanations for the slower growth rate of the black population? Nope. What part of this do you not get?

Yes, it's possible that shoes could cause cancer but if I want anyone to buy that theory I have to establish that all other MORE reasonable theories cannot apply. You have a little work to do if you want people to stop giggling at their screens.

"I'll talk slowly," my ass. I've been called a Uranus with my head up my planet and then this, What kind of condescending prick ass comment is that?

How about you spend some time showing the causation between the claim that the abortions by African American women are the abortions of African American criminals (the whole point that got this discussion started).

For you all to sit around claiming that it's good for African Americans to have abortions because it decreases the number of African American criminals seems to be all fine and dandy with the Mods around here, and I’m the one that gets warned because I said it's a bigoted racist argument and somehow me saying that is an ad hominine attack... whatever.

Great… African American women having a 3 to 1 ratio of abortion is good thing. 75% of all abortion clinics are maintained in African American neighborhoods because those are the people that want abortions…

Fine. Bigots :rolleyes:



"Prejudice and poverty have kept the Black family in a powerless state. Now the womb of the Black woman is seen as the latest battleground for oppression. This deliberate killing of Black babies in abortion is genocide, the most overt form of all. As a Black, Protestant social worker of forty years experience in poor communities, I demand an immediate halt to this genocide."
--Erma Clardy Craven
Author, "Abortion, Poverty and Black Genocide"

"Cowardice asks the question, 'is it safe?'; expediency asks the question 'is it politic?'; vanity asks the question 'is it popular?', but conscience asks the question "is it right?' and there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but because - conscience tells one it is right."
--Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"The United States government through its Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion has established a policy to outright murder unborn babies. Black women and girls are being barraged with propaganda by doctors, social workers, women liberationists and others to murder babies in their womb."
--Minister George
4X Temple No. 46, Nation of Islam

"Yesterday they snatched the babies from our arms and sold them into slavery, today they cut them out of our womb and throw them in the garbage. Abortion, Black genocide, provided free of charge by a racist society."
--Dolores Bernadette Grier
President, Black Catholics Against Abortion


You can tell the difference between different posters, yes? I am Jocabia. I said nothing about criminals. I pointed out that you don't understand causality. You suggest that abortions are directly responsible for the slow growth of the black population but you've done none of the work. Here, I'll help you understand.

From the census bureau -
http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-551.pdf

Notice the first graph where Africa isn't even mentioned (it's placed in other) and latin America has three pieces of the pie. For the statistically challenged that means the immigration from Africa isn't even statistically significant enough to label it seperately. Look at every other graph from the census bureau and you'll find the same thing. Just that figure alone negates your assumption that abortion alone can be attributed to the slow growth of the black population.

Here's an important statistic. Here is the teenage birth rate. The largest decrease in teenage births particular in the over the last fifteen years is among the black population. Yes, some would say that a decrease in the teenage birthrate is a good thing. It also shows on page 7 that the BIRTH RATES for Asians in the US is lower than that of blacks per 1000 women. Again that negates your theories about abortions be even remotely responsible for the differences in population growth.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_02.pdf

Oh, and here's a good one. Black women as a whole have a HIGHER percentage of live births than the national average. So that just throws your whole theory deep into the toilet. Black women have 148.7 pregnancies per 1000 women versus 104 per thousand for the entire US population. Black women have 57.4 abortions per thousand women versus 21.3 per 1000 for the general population (that means in 4 in ten pregnant black women get an abortion versus 2 in 10 for the general population). Now here is the important part. Black women have 71.4 live births per 1000 women in 2003. That is versus 65.9 live births per 1000 women in the general population. BLACK WOMEN ARE ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE FOR LIVE BIRTHS. That means that black people should be increasing faster than average as a population if you base it on birth rates and the effect of abortion alone. (CDC)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_02.pdf

So to sum up, Greenlander, you've been PROVEN WRONG. Your correllation has been PROVEN WRONG. Your belief that their abortion rates are decreasing their population has been PROVEN WRONG. Your racist assumption that black women are being tricked into abortions rather than being the result of increased demand by a population that is significantly more likely to be pregnant has been PROVEN WRONG. See, now that is how correllation works, my friend.

Proven wrong my butt... :rolleyes:


Perhaps you'll notice that both of the married and unmarried live birth rates are lower for black women across the board. So much so, that the Married black induced abortion rate is higher than even the unmarried white and white hispanic rates...


2000 Census…
Married White:
Total Pregnancies 116.1
Total Live Births 88.7
Induced Abortion 5.9

Unmarried White:
Total Pregnancies 73.0
Total Live Births 38.2
Induced Abortion 25.5

Married Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 111.5
Total Live Births 85.0
Induced Abortion 4.7

UnMarried Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 55.0
Total Live Births 28.0
Induced Abortion 19.8

Married Black
Total Pregnancies 106.9
Total Live Births 68.6
Induced Abortion 20.3

UnMarried Black
Total Pregnancies 160.2
Total Live Births 70.5
Induced Abortion 71.1

Married Hispanic
Total Pregnancies 130.4
Total Live Births 101.8
Induced Abortion 11.6

UnMarried Hispanic
Total Pregnancies 153.7
Total Live Births 87.4
Induced Abortion 51.9

(page 9)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_23.pdf





A group of black pastors went to the White House last year with a sobering message: abortion is destroying black America.

According to Center for Disease Control statistics, 1,500 black babies are aborted each day in the United States. That amounts to more than 500,000 children per year out of a community that already faces challenges to its survival. For this reason, Pastor Luke Robinson of Quinn Chapel A.M.E. Church in Fredrick, Maryland, wanted to ask the Bush Administration to help educate the public about the insidious genocidal aspects of the pro-abortion movement.

Robinson headed up a delegation of pastors who are carrying to the White House a message of alarm about the way abortion is systematically destroying the African-American community. "We make up 12 percent of the population," he says, "and 34 percent of all those babies aborted are African American. Those numbers are devastating to us."

The contingent of nearly 200 ministers was scheduled to meet with White House officials to ask for President Bush's help in educating U.S. citizens about this tragedy. And while Planned Parenthood and other abortion mills promote death cross-culturally, Robinson says abortion is particularly gutting the black population and slowly devastating the community.

Citing troubling census statistics, the minister says, "We find that the Hispanic birthrate is about 3.2, the white birthrate is about 2.2, and I think the African American birthrate is 0.9; which means the Hispanic community is tripling itself, the whites are doubling themselves, and the African American community are not even replacing themselves."

The Maryland pastor and pro-life activist says most people, even in the black community, have no idea that abortion is the number one killer of blacks in the United States. Robinson and the other pastors are determined to raise awareness about the "cultural genocide" being carried out against blacks by the abortion industry.



And from your own link:
The number of births for 2003 generally increased for all race and Hispanic origin groups (tables 1 and 6). Births rose 1 percent for non-Hispanic white women and 4 percent for Hispanic women. Births toAmericanIndianandAsianorPacificIslander(API)womenincreased 2 and 5 percent, respectively, whereas births to non-Hispanic black women (the only group to decline in 2003) fell slightly, by less than 1 percent.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_02.pdf (page 4)

You think I was proven wrong when the stuff you introduced yourself says I'm right? :rolleyes:

Proven wrong my butt... :rolleyes:


Perhaps you'll notice that both of the married and unmarried live birth rates are lower for black women across the board. So much so, that the Married black induced abortion rate is higher than even the unmarried white and white hispanic rates...


2000 Census…
Married White:
Total Pregnancies 116.1
Total Live Births 88.7
Induced Abortion 5.9

Unmarried White:
Total Pregnancies 73.0
Total Live Births 38.2
Induced Abortion 25.5

Married Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 111.5
Total Live Births 85.0
Induced Abortion 4.7

UnMarried Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 55.0
Total Live Births 28.0
Induced Abortion 19.8

Married Black
Total Pregnancies 106.9
Total Live Births 68.6
Induced Abortion 20.3

UnMarried Black
Total Pregnancies 160.2
Total Live Births 70.5
Induced Abortion 71.1

Married Hispanic
Total Pregnancies 130.4
Total Live Births 101.8
Induced Abortion 11.6

UnMarried Hispanic
Total Pregnancies 153.7
Total Live Births 87.4
Induced Abortion 51.9

(page 9)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_23.pdf





A group of black pastors went to the White House last year with a sobering message: abortion is destroying black America.

According to Center for Disease Control statistics, 1,500 black babies are aborted each day in the United States. That amounts to more than 500,000 children per year out of a community that already faces challenges to its survival. For this reason, Pastor Luke Robinson of Quinn Chapel A.M.E. Church in Fredrick, Maryland, wanted to ask the Bush Administration to help educate the public about the insidious genocidal aspects of the pro-abortion movement.

Robinson headed up a delegation of pastors who are carrying to the White House a message of alarm about the way abortion is systematically destroying the African-American community. "We make up 12 percent of the population," he says, "and 34 percent of all those babies aborted are African American. Those numbers are devastating to us."

The contingent of nearly 200 ministers was scheduled to meet with White House officials to ask for President Bush's help in educating U.S. citizens about this tragedy. And while Planned Parenthood and other abortion mills promote death cross-culturally, Robinson says abortion is particularly gutting the black population and slowly devastating the community.

Citing troubling census statistics, the minister says, "We find that the Hispanic birthrate is about 3.2, the white birthrate is about 2.2, and I think the African American birthrate is 0.9; which means the Hispanic community is tripling itself, the whites are doubling themselves, and the African American community are not even replacing themselves."

The Maryland pastor and pro-life activist says most people, even in the black community, have no idea that abortion is the number one killer of blacks in the United States. Robinson and the other pastors are determined to raise awareness about the "cultural genocide" being carried out against blacks by the abortion industry.



And from your own link:
The number of births for 2003 generally increased for all race and Hispanic origin groups (tables 1 and 6). Births rose 1 percent for non-Hispanic white women and 4 percent for Hispanic women. Births toAmericanIndianandAsianorPacificIslander(API)womenincreased 2 and 5 percent, respectively, whereas births to non-Hispanic black women (the only group to decline in 2003) fell slightly, by less than 1 percent.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_02.pdf (page 4)

You think I was proven wrong when the stuff you introduced yourself says I'm right? :rolleyes:


But you just proved that I'm right.

1. That blacks have a lot more abortions.
2. That blacks "say" they're against them - but have them in great numbers anyway.

Big difference between what people say and what people do. Oh, and of course any "leader" would be against it, because it means his constituency is disappearing.

It's not like anyone is forcing black women to go get abortions, or encouraging them to do so through public service announcements.

You'll note that Republicans don't want to fund abortions for the poor - while the Democrats definitely want to fund them.

So, which party is making it easier for blacks to do this?

Proven wrong my butt... :rolleyes:


Perhaps you'll notice that both of the married and unmarried live birth rates are lower for black women across the board. So much so, that the Married black induced abortion rate is higher than even the unmarried white and white hispanic rates...


2000 Census…
Married White:
Total Pregnancies 116.1
Total Live Births 88.7
Induced Abortion 5.9

Unmarried White:
Total Pregnancies 73.0
Total Live Births 38.2
Induced Abortion 25.5

Married Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 111.5
Total Live Births 85.0
Induced Abortion 4.7

UnMarried Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 55.0
Total Live Births 28.0
Induced Abortion 19.8

Married Black
Total Pregnancies 106.9
Total Live Births 68.6
Induced Abortion 20.3

UnMarried Black
Total Pregnancies 160.2
Total Live Births 70.5
Induced Abortion 71.1

Married Hispanic
Total Pregnancies 130.4
Total Live Births 101.8
Induced Abortion 11.6

UnMarried Hispanic
Total Pregnancies 153.7
Total Live Births 87.4
Induced Abortion 51.9

(page 9)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_23.pdf





A group of black pastors went to the White House last year with a sobering message: abortion is destroying black America.

According to Center for Disease Control statistics, 1,500 black babies are aborted each day in the United States. That amounts to more than 500,000 children per year out of a community that already faces challenges to its survival. For this reason, Pastor Luke Robinson of Quinn Chapel A.M.E. Church in Fredrick, Maryland, wanted to ask the Bush Administration to help educate the public about the insidious genocidal aspects of the pro-abortion movement.

Robinson headed up a delegation of pastors who are carrying to the White House a message of alarm about the way abortion is systematically destroying the African-American community. "We make up 12 percent of the population," he says, "and 34 percent of all those babies aborted are African American. Those numbers are devastating to us."

The contingent of nearly 200 ministers was scheduled to meet with White House officials to ask for President Bush's help in educating U.S. citizens about this tragedy. And while Planned Parenthood and other abortion mills promote death cross-culturally, Robinson says abortion is particularly gutting the black population and slowly devastating the community.

Citing troubling census statistics, the minister says, "We find that the Hispanic birthrate is about 3.2, the white birthrate is about 2.2, and I think the African American birthrate is 0.9; which means the Hispanic community is tripling itself, the whites are doubling themselves, and the African American community are not even replacing themselves."

The Maryland pastor and pro-life activist says most people, even in the black community, have no idea that abortion is the number one killer of blacks in the United States. Robinson and the other pastors are determined to raise awareness about the "cultural genocide" being carried out against blacks by the abortion industry.



And from your own link:
The number of births for 2003 generally increased for all race and Hispanic origin groups (tables 1 and 6). Births rose 1 percent for non-Hispanic white women and 4 percent for Hispanic women. Births toAmericanIndianandAsianorPacificIslander(API)womenincreased 2 and 5 percent, respectively, whereas births to non-Hispanic black women (the only group to decline in 2003) fell slightly, by less than 1 percent.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_02.pdf (page 4)

You think I was proven wrong when the stuff you introduced yourself says I'm right? :rolleyes:

Math isn't your strong suit I see. So white women have 113 births per 1000 women and black women have 139.1 per 1000 women. Now explain to me how black women have less live births? They have less that hispanics, yes, but more than the national average. Therefore birthrate is CANNOT be a factor in a slower than average birth rate. Your suggestion that it is otherwise is spurious and ridiculous.

I noticed you limited the data you quoted to one year and you didn't note that number of births is not the same as birth rates. I know you're not very good at statistics, but certainly you can make a better argument then trying to pretend like births and birthRATES are the same thing. What are you going to try to sell next? That miles are the same miles per hour? See comparing births to birth rates is like comparing distance a car travels to the speed of the car. Speed is a snapshot but distance requires information like time travelled, stops for food, gas, sleep, repairs, etc. Since you're comparing abortion RATES compare birth RATES or you are not talking about the same thing.

Also, let's note some other things you choose to ignore. The most significant fall in birthrate for blacks is in teenage mothers with a decrease to pretty close to half from 1990. Outside of teenage mothers, birthrates have remained pretty steady among the black population. So you are lamenting the decline in teenage mothers. In fact, the black population saw the most significant decline in teenage mothers of any other group including the population as a whole. You can look at that on Page 33.

Also, according to the census bureau and every other reliable source this is patently false - "We find that the Hispanic birthrate is about 3.2, the white birthrate is about 2.2, and I think the African American birthrate is 0.9;[/b] which means the Hispanic community is tripling itself, the whites are doubling themselves, and the African American community are not even replacing themselves." - The actual numbers for blacks is 2.2 which is above the national average of 2.1, and above the average for whites of 1.9. The numbers can be found in the sources I cited earlier from the census bureau and cdc.

well you dont say what the numbers mean so im going to assume they are per 100k/year

so total white live birth is 126.9

total non hispanic white is 113

total hispanic is 189.2

total black is 138.6

so hispanics have the higher birth rates (as well as the higher immigration rates)

blacks greatly outpace whites in live births. the difference is more dramatic when hispanic whites are removed from the equation.

now consider this cnn report from 2001 that i pulled off the net....
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The black population of the United States grew almost three times as fast as the white populace in the decade of the 1990s, according to U.S. Census reports released Monday.

Whites remain the largest racial group in the country, but blacks increased 16 percent from 1990 to 2000 -- faster than the total U.S. population, which grew 13 percent.

The white population increased only 6 percent.

In 2000, 211 million people reported themselves as "white alone," accounting for 75 percent of the U.S. population. Those who reported themselves as "black only" numbered 35 million people, or 12 percent of the population.

An additional 2 million people said they were black and at least one other race. Within this group, the most common racial combination was black and white, making up 45 percent of the pairings.


so black population growth is not in trouble in any way. abortion is not adversely affecting the number of children/woman just the number of unwanted children.

more troubling than the abortion rate is the black death rate. black americans have a much higher death rate than any other racial or ethnic group.

more troubling than the abortion rate is the black death rate. black americans have a much higher death rate than any other racial or ethnic group.

And as I've pointed out before 94 percent of murdered blacks are murdered by blacks.

They're killing each other.

Math isn't your strong suit I see.

It’s certainly not yours

So white women have 113 births per 1000 women and black women have 139.1 per 1000 women. Now explain to me how black women have less live births? They have less that hispanics, yes, but more than the national average. Therefore birthrate is CANNOT be a factor in a slower than average birth rate. Your suggestion that it is otherwise is spurious and ridiculous.

You seem to not understand your own numbers. 139.1 is the combined average of the married and unmarried pregnancy rate of the African Americans... Once you have that number they get divided into the live births and induced abortions numbers (the missing fraction is spontaneous abortions and still borns etc.,).

Now, try again.
Right back at ya,

It’s certainly not yours



You seem to not understand your own numbers. 139.1 is the combined average of the married and unmarried pregnancy rate of the African Americans... Once you have that number they get divided into the live births and induced abortions numbers (the missing fraction is spontaneous abortions and still borns etc.,).


Right back at ya,

Those numbers are live births. Quoted from you -
Non-hispanic whites -
Married Total Live Births 85.0
Unmarried Total Live Births 28.0

What's that add up to for total LIVE births (number of living children born into the world) - 113 the number I said earlier.


Non-hispanic blacks -
Married Total Live Births 68.6
Unmarried Total Live Births 70.5

What that add up to for total LIVE births - 139.1 also the number I said earlier.

The amazing part of this is you don't even get embarassed when you simply misread data, skew it to your own agenda or straight-out lie and then get caught. Read it again. Live births are pregnancies minus abortions (both intended and spontaneous) and still births.

Married Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 111.5
Total Live Births 85.0
Induced Abortion 4.7

UnMarried Non-Hispanic White:
Total Pregnancies 55.0
Total Live Births 28.0
Induced Abortion 19.8

Married Black
Total Pregnancies 106.9
Total Live Births 68.6
Induced Abortion 20.3

UnMarried Black
Total Pregnancies 160.2
Total Live Births 70.5
Induced Abortion 71.1


Now what was that about my math skills? Oh and the number of PREGNANCIES are 166.5 for whites and 267.1 for blacks. Read, add, think, then post, in that order. Seriously, to write what you just wrote just makes it hard not to giggle and point.

Did anyone else notice how GL drops all of the arguments that prove that there is no connection between abortion and the slow growth of the black population?

while its fun to refute such easy posts, i think its time to just let this thread die. the original poster has been shown to be wrong in his assumption that blacks dont care about the abortion issue. greenlander quoted several black leaders who are anti-abortion. thats enough for me.

the accusations of genocide and conspiracy have been shown to be baseless.

the US black population is not going down. we need not fear that there will come a day when there are no black americans.

there is no sense going over it any more. if greenlander cant let it die, WE can.

while its fun to refute such easy posts, i think its time to just let this thread die. the original poster has been shown to be wrong in his assumption that blacks dont care about the abortion issue. greenlander quoted several black leaders who are anti-abortion. thats enough for me.

the accusations of genocide and conspiracy have been shown to be baseless.

the US black population is not going down. we need not fear that there will come a day when there are no black americans.

there is no sense going over it any more. if greenlander cant let it die, WE can.

I can't see how we can do more damage to his argument than he's been. Your point is quite valid.

while its fun to refute such easy posts, i think its time to just let this thread die. the original poster has been shown to be wrong in his assumption that blacks dont care about the abortion issue. greenlander quoted several black leaders who are anti-abortion. thats enough for me.

the accusations of genocide and conspiracy have been shown to be baseless.

the US black population is not going down. we need not fear that there will come a day when there are no black americans.

there is no sense going over it any more. if greenlander cant let it die, WE can.
Point.

Buh-Bye Greenie. It's been a displeasure. Hope that someday you can pull your head out of your planet...

Non-hispanic blacks -
Married Total Live Births 68.6
Unmarried Total Live Births 70.5

What that add up to for total LIVE births - 139.1 also the number I said earlier.


Nice try, but that isn’t the way it works either…

Because if you did want to see the combined total you then have 139.1 of 2000, not 1000. The numbers are already compiled of separate groups of 1000 mothers. If you add them together, you then have to divide by 2 to get the combined sample of 1000 again. It would then be a sample of married mothers and unwed mothers, it would be 69.55 of 1000.

I'll drop the topic aw well, but you can't add the numbers together when they are already samples of 1000 samples :rolleyes:

Point.

Buh-Bye Greenie. It's been a displeasure. Hope that someday you can pull your head out of your planet...

And I hope you figure out that flamebait isn't an argument or position :headbang:

In an estimated crowd of 120,000 people, in Washington D.C., a city in which 60% of the populations claims black ancestry, I literally did not see a single black person present for either side during the entire course of the day. The only black people I saw on the streets were cops. This is not a statistical anomoly.

Just so you know I went to the 2004 and 2005 ones, there were half a dozen pro-choice protesters and a few large majority black parishes

Nice try, but that isn’t the way it works either…

Because if you did want to see the combined total you then have 139.1 of 2000, not 1000. The numbers are already compiled of separate groups of 1000 mothers. If you add them together, you then have to divide by 2 to get the combined sample of 1000 again. It would then be a sample of married mothers and unwed mothers, it would be 69.55 of 1000.

I'll drop the topic aw well, but you can't add the numbers together when they are already samples of 1000 samples :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter if they are out of 1000 or 2000 because I am comparing the same types of numbers by adding the same way in the general population and by adding in the white population, etc. It's still reached the same way. Not to mention that original source didn't break them out the way you did and agreed with my conclusion, but you missed that part, didn't you? And what does that have to do with you not knowing that it was the total for LIVE birth and not ALL PREGNANCIES. Seriously, do you just keep throwing out false premises until one of them doesn't get a response? The fact is that I was looking at comparable numbers of live births relative to the populations they are a part of and black women are having MORE LIVE BIRTHS than the national average. That means that abortion CANNOT account for a population growth rate that is slower than the national average. Your premise was false. Ashmoria was correct when she said that abortion does not necessarily mean that a woman has less children just that she has less unwanted children and the census proves it. It's amazing how you can NEVER EVER just admit that you misread the data. The statistics do not agree with any conclusion you've tried to make in this thread. There is not a causal relationship between a lower than average growth rate of the black population and abortion no matter how much you want their to be.

It doesn't matter if they are out of 1000 or 2000 because I am comparing the same types of numbers by adding the same way in the general population and by adding in the white population, etc. ... .

Sure it matters

In a sample of 1000 unwed women, how many are married women who are pregnant? Answer, 0

In the reverse, 1000 married women, how many single pregnant women are there? 0

In order to combine them, you have to take half of one and half the other OR combine both sets and then divide by 2.

At this point you’re embarrassing yourself. : rolleyes:

*clipped for length*
Dude, "liberals" are the ones who SUPPORT abortion. You must have your political talking points backwards...remember, the "left wing" is full of "baby killers" who want all women to be promiscuous sluts who have abortion parties every Thursday night. "Liberals" are the ones trying to teach your good, conservative children about dirty things like where babies come from, which (as any good wingnut knows) is going to immediately make all the little girls run right out and get pregnant so they can have abortions.

Seriously, though, "liberals" are the ones who are pushing to provide better reproductive health care for minorities (who just happen to make up a disproportionate number among the poor), to provide more comprehensive education about reproductive choice in PUBLIC schools (you know, the ones where all the poor black kids go), and to ensure abortion remains safe and non-criminalized so that minority women have access to it (instead of the good old days, when only rich white women could get sent on "vacations" to Europe to get safe abortions).

This new anti-choice anti-liberal talking point is so bass-ackwards that it's amazing...I can't believe anybody, even a winger, would fall for it.

Sure it matters

In a sample of 1000 unwed women, how many are married women who are pregnant? Answer, 0

In the reverse, 1000 married women, how many single pregnant women are there? 0

In order to combine them, you have to take half of one and half the other OR combine both sets and then divide by 2.


Gradeschool Mathmatics.

.45.....45......90.............90
---.+.---.=..----...NOT..----.... :rolleyes:
100...100.....100...........200

Thus, if PU=Pregnant Unmarried & PM=Pregnant Married then:

.PU.....PM......PU+PM.......PU+PM
----.+.----.=..----...NOT..----.... :rolleyes:
1000..1000....1000..........2000

At this point you’re embarrassing yourself. : rolleyes:As you say....

Gradeschool Mathmatics.

45 45 90 90
--- + ---- = ---- NOT ---- :rolleyes:
100 100 100 200


As you say....

OMGosh! LMAO

According to you, if we can add all the women groups together and count how many are pregnant WITHOUT dividing them by the number of groups afterwards, you would have 906.8 pregnant women out of the sample of 1000 :rolleyes:

For every group you add, you have to divide by that number of groups.

OMGosh! LMAO

According to you, if we can add all the women groups together and count how many are pregnant WITHOUT dividing them by the number of groups afterwards, you would have 906.8 pregnant women out of the sample of 1000 :rolleyes:

For every group you add, you have to divide by that number of groups.
Um, that's because we are adding RATES (X/1000) not groups/samples.

Sure it matters

In a sample of 1000 unwed women, how many are married women who are pregnant? Answer, 0

In the reverse, 1000 married women, how many single pregnant women are there? 0

In order to combine them, you have to take half of one and half the other OR combine both sets and then divide by 2.

At this point you’re embarrassing yourself. : rolleyes:

You don't have to divide by two. The comparison is still apt. We are making ratios so it doesn't matter if it is out of 1000 or 2000.

Do you know how to do ratios? They work like this. 4:2 is the same as 2:1. So that means so long as we keep the groups the same size (AND I DID) that if we compare them to each other, it doesn't matter if I multiply them by 5 billion or divide them by four or two or seven. The ratio will still be the same. Black women will ALWAYS have a birth rate above the national average and above the birth rate of white women. Period. We weren't using hard numbers, we were using comparisons.

Also, more to the point, you can't actually add those numbers together because we don't know the size of the overall group. If there are two babies per thousand in a group of two thousand that is four babies. And if there is one baby per thousand in a group of four thousand that makes four babies. Adding them doesn't make it three babies per two thousand it makes one and one third baby per thousand. So you're still wrong. But in terms of comparison I posted the numbers in the first post and here they are again.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_23.pdf
Black live births 71.4 per 1000
White live births 58.5 per 1000
All races live births 65.9 per 1000

The numbers are simple to read and even simpler to interpret. If the black race is dying out in America due to low birth rates then the white race is dying out MUCH faster since they are below the national average and blacks are above the national average. Also then the nation as a whole would also be slowing melting away due to low birth rates since they are lower than the black birth rates. Your theories are ridiculous, but feel free to continue to defend them with NO evidence other than a couple of black leaders who made up figures that can be easily disproven with census data.

Note: I knew you couldn't add them that way, I was just pointing out the error in your statement about black birthrates being lower than average.

Um, that's because we are adding RATES (X/1000) not groups/samples.

You're both wrong and he does this in every thread. Ratios aren't fractions and they don't represent the entire group so the technically cannot be added together without knowing the entire group. The problem is GL has no way to support his point so he tries to pretend like there is something wrong with my data or the way I'm analyzing it. However, even if what he said was true about adding the groups together as well, it wouldn't matter because 25 births out of 2000 women compares to 50 births out of 2000 women the same way 12.5 births out of a 1000 women compares to 25 births out of a 1000 women. Either way the second is twice the first. That's how comparisons work, but he's going to keep trying to start arguments that aren't about the point becuase otherwise he has to admit that he can't support his claim that black people are dying out because of abortion.

Explanation: I give you 7000 pieces of butterscotch candy and say you can eat 14. I get to eat 21 pieces of butterscotch candy. To show the relative amount that you ate of the sample I gave you I say you ate 2 per 1000 pieces of candy and I ate 3 per 1000. Now I give you 1000 pieces of peppermint candy and say you can eat 7 pieces. your relative ratio is you get to have 7 per 1000 pieces of candy. If you add them the way I did earlier in the thread you get 9 per 1000 and the way GL did you get 9 per 2000. I get to have 21 again of the second sample so I get 21 per 1000 of the second sample. Again my original way 24 of 1000 and GL's way 24 of 2000. Now compare I can compare 9 to 24 or, um, 9 to 24. Either way you got less candy than me. That's why the sample number doesn't matter if you do it that way. However, if we want a true ratio that doesn't work because it suggests that you 3/8ths of piece of candy for piece I had.

The real ratios though are 42 in the 8000 total candy peices for me and 21 of 8000 for you. So in reality you got 1/2 of a piece for every piece of candy I got. That's why you can't add them at all. And it's easier to look at the census numbers which I posted both before and after GL tried to distract us from the point

The point is no matter how you look at it, black women are having more babies than average and thus are not being harmed by abortion like GL would like to claim.

You're both wrong and he does this in every thread. Ratios aren't fractions and they don't represent the entire group so the technically cannot be added together without knowing the entire group.



Ah HA!!!! There you go!

Now that you’ve started down the road of understanding how you originally messed up, what was it that you were trying to say about adding the married and unmarried numbers together?

You can't do it at all. African American live births are less than 71.0 for either married or unmarried group, no matter the percentage of married African American in the population of all African American women. The result of live births CANNOT be more than 71.

Ah HA!!!! There you go!

Now that you’ve started down the road of understanding how you originally messed up, what was it that you were trying to say about adding the married and unmarried numbers together?

You can't do it at all. African American live births are less than 71.0 for either married or unmarried group, no matter the percentage of married African American in the population of all African American women. The result of live births CANNOT be more than 71.

What's your point? We weren't looking at the actual numbers we were looking at how they relate to the average and no matter how you put them together black women are above average for the number of live births. Your point was wrong then, it's wrong now and it will continue to be wrong.

The funny part is you try to make it sound like you corrected me. The only one who did the math right was me. You did it wrong and then argued with both me and Syniks about it. Now have you conceded the point that you were never correct about abortion causing a declining black population in comparison to the average?

In order to combine them, you have to take half of one and half the other OR combine both sets and then divide by 2.

You were wrong. Admit it. Don't pretend like you were right just because I admitted that first way I did it was just to point out that what you said didn't make any sense. The above quote is not math in any world, let alone on Earth.

Now, I repeat, do you concede that abortion can not account for a population growth that is slower than average or even contribute to it when the birth rate is higher than average?

What's your point? We weren't looking at the actual numbers we were looking at how they relate to the average and no matter how you put them together black women are above average for the number of live births. Your point was wrong then, it's wrong now and it will continue to be wrong.

The funny part is you try to make it sound like you corrected me. The only one who did the math right was me. You did it wrong and then argued with both me and Syniks about it. Now have you conceded the point that you were never correct about abortion causing a declining black population in comparison to the average?


You are the one that wanted to work in the groups of 1000. I avoided it because it doesn't tell us much in this discussion, not until you completely got one type of census report wrong and misunderstood what it meant.

Only THEN did I show the break down of 1000 groups that you kept demanding even though I kept telling you the one you want is the abortion percentages... I broke it down to married and unmarried to reveal to you the discrepancies so that you could see what it really looks like and how it is strangely different than all other groups.

But the real difference is STILL that it is 300% more likely for an African American woman to get an abortion over other groups of women in America...

What “I” said was that the percentage of Americans who are African Americans, are declining, YOU misunderstood a quote of Rev. Hunter’s that I posted who thinks that the total number of Blacks is on the decline, he even said “I think” afterwards because even he knows it’s not technically a factor that can be proved yet. He also said that African Americans are the only MINORITY group that is declining, everyone know the Whites are declining.

My point was that the percentage of Africans get too many abortions and that the abortions they have cannot be argued to have reduce the percentage of Criminals in America because they are a ‘blanket’ percentage. ALL African Americans (criminal or otherwise) are reduced when they have suffer a 2 out of 3 pregnancies resulting in no child (50% induced abortion and 15% loss of child to other reasons [everyone suffers a degree of miscarriages]).

But the real difference is STILL what I said in the first place that made you want to switch over to groups of 1000, and that it is the 300% more likely for an African American woman to get an abortion over other groups of women in America...

The number of pregnant white women in groups of 1000's are far less, they are reducing their numbers by not getting pregnant until marriage. The African Americans are reducing their rate via abortions and the fact that 75% of abortion clinics are in African American Neighborhoods...and 70% of African American children who do manage to get born are born to unwed mothers... And ALL of that is because of institutionalized racism in the system they have been living in for the last fifty years...

P.s., the only reason it looks like I corrected you in my previous post is because I did correct you.

Wait... I haven't read anything but the first post, but are you saying that liberals don't want black Americans to be pro life because when they're pro choice they get abortions and the liberals lose votes? Does that make sense?

You are the one that wanted to work in the groups of 1000. I avoided it until you completely got one wrong and misunderstood what it meant.

I didn't use groups of anything. I wrote the group size, but it's not a factor when making a comparison so I wasn't really looking at it. That's why I completely left it off the second time I listed everything. In comparisons, groups don't matter so long as their the same size. And what it meant and still means is that black women have more children than average every year.

Only THEN did I show the break down of 1000 groups that you kept demanding even though I kept telling you the one you want is the abortion percentages... I broke it down to married and unmarried to reveal to you the discrepancies so that you could see what it really looks like and how it is strangely different than all other groups.

What does married and unmarried have to do with anything. And abortion percentages don't matter either. Only birth rates. If the birth rates are higher than average they can have fifty times the nation average of abortions and it won't make their population growth slower than average. You don't understand this, but it doesn't make it less true.

But the real difference is STILL that it is 300% more likely for an African American woman to get an abortion over other groups of women in America...

Um, no. 300% more likely means four times as likely but that's not true. Black women have approximately twice as many abortions per pregnancy than average and three times as many aboritions per woman. That makes a black woman 200% more likely. You're still struggling with math.

X% more than the compared amount equals (X/100+1) times the compared amount. 300% more = 300/100 + 1 or 4

What “I” said was that the percentage of Americans who are African Americans, are declining, YOU misunderstood a quote of Rev. Hunter’s that I posted who thinks that the total number of Blacks is on the decline, he even said “I think” afterwards because even he knows it’s not technically a factor that can be proved yet. My point was that the percentage of Africans get too many abortions and that the abortions they have cannot be argued to have reduce the percentage of Criminals in America because they are a ‘blanket’ percentage. ALL African Americans (criminal or otherwise) are reduced when they have suffer a 2 out of 3 pregnancies resulting in no child (50% induced abortion and 15% loss of child to other reasons [everyone suffers a degree of miscarriages]).

If the percentage of people who are black is declining (is/percentage, verb agreement friend), then it is not due to abortions because the birth rate is higher than average. That means that if birth was the ONLY factor then blacks would be increasing as a percentage of the total population and death rates have to be the factor that is decreasing their population percentage. It has nothing to do with abortion. I am responding to your claims which is why I keep mentioning slow growth.

As far as your point about criminals, the number of births is not a factor of abortions alone. A woman can get an abortion or ten and still end up with the same number of children in her lifetime as she would have without ever getting an abortion. The only thing that is reduced for DEFINITE is the number of unwanted children. There has been much evidence collected about unwanted children and impovershed children being more likely to enter a life of crime, no matter what race. Because of the availability of abortions, women can no wait until they are ready to have children to have them rather than having them when they aren't ready simply because they can't do anything about it.

But the real difference is STILL what I said in the first place that made you want to switch over to groups of 1000, and that it is the 300% more likely for an African American woman to get an abortion over other groups of women in America...

Still 200%.

The number of pregnant white women are far less, they are reducing their numbers by not getting pregnant. The African Americans are reducing their rate via abortions and the fact that 75% of abortion clinics are in African American Neighborhoods...

You haven't proven that causality. You can't. Birth rates for black women are higher than average so they can't be declining as a percentage of the overall population because of birth rate no matter how many abortions they have.

Simple math. Black women get pregnant at a rate that is 1.5 times that of the average rate or 50% more than average. So if the average rate of abortion is is 40% for pregnant blacks and 20% of the national population then you still have more pregnant black women percentagewise than in the national population. You keep missing the point. What proof my math is correct? Look at the birth rate. Black women are having more babies than the average. That COMPLETELY takes abortion off the table as a cause for the decline since, as I'm sure you're aware, live births only take place in women who have already declined an abortion. Unless you plan to show how abortions can somehow reduce the number of people who have ALREADY been born, then you really don't have an argument.

P.s., the only reason it looks like I corrected you in my previous post is because I did correct you.
No, you TRIED to correct me. You weren't right. You can't add numbers like that and I proved itwith a formula. I didn't add numbers, I made a comparison because the size of the groups are relatively similar.

I'll show you what correcting looks like.

In order to combine them, you have to take half of one and half the other OR combine both sets and then divide by 2.

Also, more to the point, you can't actually add those numbers together because we don't know the size of the overall group. If there are two babies per thousand in a group of two thousand that is four babies. And if there is one baby per thousand in a group of four thousand that makes four babies. Adding them doesn't make it three babies per two thousand it makes one and one third baby per thousand. So you're still wrong.

See that's what correction looks like. If I misspeak and say that most people have three legs and you 'correct' me and say most people have four. You haven't corrected me. At all. The only one who corrected me, if you'd like to call it that, is me. You were incorrect about that just like almost everything else you've said in this thread. Post more though. It's doing wonders for my ability to giggle.

You're both wrong and he does this in every thread. Ratios aren't fractions and they don't represent the entire group so the technically cannot be added together without knowing the entire group. I know that my "example" was fallacious. I just thought it would be funny to show that GL is so bound by his worldview that he would misrepresent what I said. He responded quite the way I thought he would IMO :D

(note, I didn't say fractional addition acually applied to this case, just that x/z combined (added) to y/z = x+y/z. Had he tried to say that a he was averaging the ratios (as his math implied) I wouldn't have used the example - or spent bugger-all time formatting it to make it look pretty... :p )

I know that my "example" was fallacious. I just thought it would be funny to show that GL is so bound by his worldview that he would misrepresent what I said. He responded quite the way I thought he would IMO :D

(note, I didn't say fractional addition acually applied to this case, just that x/z combined (added) to y/z = x+y/z. Had he tried to say that a he was averaging the ratios (as his math implied) I wouldn't have used the example - or spent bugger-all time formatting it to make it look pretty... :p )


Ha ha,,, yeah, kind of like Pee Wee Herman crashing his bike and jumping up trying to tell everyone he did it on purpose... HAHA HA, nicely done. Oh, you got me there I Soooo believed you crashed your bike on purpose. :rolleyes:

I didn't use groups of anything. I wrote the group size, but it's not a factor when making a comparison so I wasn't really looking at it. That's why I completely left it off the second time I listed everything. In comparisons, groups don't matter so long as their the same size. And what it meant and still means is that black women have more children than average every year.

Um no, that’s not what you said, what you said was:
Those numbers are live births. Quoted from you -
Non-hispanic whites -
Married Total Live Births 85.0
Unmarried Total Live Births 28.0

What's that add up to for total LIVE births (number of living children born into the world) - 113 the number I said earlier.

Non-hispanic blacks -
Married Total Live Births 68.6
Unmarried Total Live Births 70.5

What that add up to for total LIVE births - 139.1 also the number I said earlier.


Nope, that’s not the same thing now is it? Oh wait, no you didn't have to say that because you knew what you meant to say only didn’t bother to say it? You had no idea what you were talking about but finally got a clue and are now trying to save face...


What does married and unmarried have to do with anything. And abortion percentages don't matter either. Only birth rates. If the birth rates are higher than average they can have fifty times the nation average of abortions and it won't make their population growth slower than average. You don't understand this, but it doesn't make it less true.


Because the 70% unmarried percentage of children that Are born in the African American community PROVE that your guess that they are only aborting 'unwanted high criminals etc.,' is bullshit. They have NOT reduced only their criminals, they are reducing their entire group. People need to quit saying that their abortion rate somehow makes the other African Americans better off, it's utter nonsense.



Um, no. 300% more likely means four times as likely but that's not true. Black women have approximately twice as many abortions per pregnancy than average and three times as many aboritions per woman. That makes a black woman 200% more likely. You're still struggling with math.


Um, no. 10 vs 10 is a 100% equal chance. 20 vs. 10 is a 200% chance, 30 vs 10 is a 300% chance.

White Induced Abortion for Married Women, 5.9
White unmarried Induced Abortion, 25.5
Married Non Hispanic white’s Induced Abortion 4.7
Unmarried Non Hispanic Whites Induced Abortion 19.8


Married Black Induced Abortion 20.3 (vs 5.9 and 4.7 ) 300% easily
Unmarried Black Induced Abortion 71.1 (vs 25.5 and 19.8) Again, a good 3 to 1 ratio.

(keep in mind that 70% of children born in African American homes are born to Unmarried mothers’)



-----

This is tiresome... you guys crash your entire argument around misconstruing the data and what it means and then you continue to babble anyway :rolleyes: ...

Ha ha,,, yeah, kind of like Pee Wee Herman crashing his bike and jumping up trying to tell everyone he did it on purpose...Never had the misfortune of watching it. Figured it was for children and/or imbiciles who watched too much TV. Since you claim to have watched it, please tell us more about this great bit of entertainment. HAHA HA, nicely done. Oh, you got me there I Soooo believed you crashed your bike on purpose. :rolleyes: Let's see, you use :rolleyes: to indicate sarcasam. I use :rolleyes: to indicate sarcasam. Hmmm.... I count no less than two :rolleyes: s in my post. Wonder why?

Think for a minute and look to see all the cases where I have and have not addressed your points directly. In my post about adding fractions, I made no assertions about the connection between my math, which was correct, and your assertion, which was incorrect. I avoided your points entirely. You took it upon yourself to draw the inference and conclusion.

Feel free to try again if you like. I suppose I can demonstrate your absurditiy by being absurd again if the situation requires it.

*snip*

Oh, no problem. We all know how we like to throw our arguments into the trash just to see what happens... ;)

snip
This is tiresome... you guys crash your entire argument around misconstruing the data and what it means and then you continue to babble anyway :rolleyes: ...
Yes, you are. We advocate the freedom of choice - a choice no one is forced to take, and you call us racist and bigots while you tell us that African Americaqn women are incapable of rationally taking that choice - worse, that they are too stupid to see how bad their choice is in the greater scope of Greenlander's World.

I refuse to believe that African American Women are too stupid to know what they are doing with their own bodies or community.

It's supremely unfortunate that you do.

Well I don't advocate nor want to defend the last fifty years (and more) of institutional racist policies that have been mandated on at least two full generations of poor African American woman to decide when they get pregnant, IF they should risk losing their ability to support her child IF they marry the unemployable father (who was himself educated in less than a quality government school, mandated by the same circumstances with his mother) to live in less than sufficiently quality neighborhoods and the new single mother is told she needs to be a single mother (70% unwed mothers) or have an abortion (300% higher abortion 'choices) OR marry the father and raise their child in a two parent house but one that has less Medicare less food/wick stamps and more expensive housing because she dared to marry her spouse... And while you cram all that on their heads, you make sure to keep the availability of an abortion clinic in their immediate neighborhood with as little a waiting period as possible (75% of all abortion clinics located in African American Neighborhoods).


Oh, good for you, I'm so glad you've decided to support and defend the status-quo. :rolleyes:

Um no, that’s not what you said, what you said was:


Nope, that’s not the same thing now is it? Oh wait, no you didn't have to say that because you knew what you meant to say only didn’t bother to say it? You had no idea what you were talking about but finally got a clue and are now trying to save face...

I pointed out that it was an estimation and it turned out to be correct as I've shown time and again. Continue to avoid the argument.

Because the 70% unmarried percentage of children that Are born in the African American community PROVE that your guess that they are only aborting 'unwanted high criminals etc.,' is bullshit. They have NOT reduced only their criminals, they are reducing their entire group. People need to quit saying that their abortion rate somehow makes the other African Americans better off, it's utter nonsense.

When did I say they were only aborting unwanted criminals? When did I say they were better off? Can you quote me please? Nope. Burn, strawman, burn.

I said they were aborting unwanted pregnancies. What are you arguing? That they are aborting wanted pregnancies? What you're missing is that you keep making the claim that abortions are responsible for slow than average population growth when the birth rate is higher than average. It's quite simply impossible by mathematics. The fact that you can't understand it says more about you than about your argument.

Um, no. 10 vs 10 is a 100% equal chance. 20 vs. 10 is a 200% chance, 30 vs 10 is a 300% chance.

Um, yes. 20 vs 10 is 200% or 100% MORE. You said '300% more likely' which is the same as 400% since the original amount is 100% by definition. Again, the fact that you can't understand this says more about you than about your argument or the objective properties of mathematics.

White Induced Abortion for Married Women, 5.9
White unmarried Induced Abortion, 25.5
Married Non Hispanic white’s Induced Abortion 4.7
Unmarried Non Hispanic Whites Induced Abortion 19.8


Married Black Induced Abortion 20.3 (vs 5.9 and 4.7 ) 300% easily
Unmarried Black Induced Abortion 71.1 (vs 25.5 and 19.8) Again, a good 3 to 1 ratio.

yes, 3 to 1 is 200% more likely, just as I said. Basic math. And since you were talking about the overall ratio the seperate ratios don't really matter.

(keep in mind that 70% of children born in African American homes are born to Unmarried mothers’)

So what? You seem to think that unmarried pregnancies are somehow unwanted and married pregnancies are wanted. Neither of those holds true as a rule.

This is tiresome... you guys crash your entire argument around misconstruing the data and what it means and then you continue to babble anyway :rolleyes: ...
Ha! That's great. I wonder which of us doesn't understand statistics and mathematics at even a basic level. YOUR ARGUMENT IS IMPOSSIBLE. It's not an opinion or an interpretation of data or anything else. You've made one of the few arguments that I've ever seen on NationStates that is actually impossible. You can't have a higher than average birth rate and suggest at the same time that something that affects the birth rate is causing lower than average population growth. You know why? Because you're not counted as part of the population until you're born. Your argument is impossible.

Well I don't advocate nor want to defend the last fifty years (and more) of institutional racist policies that have been mandated on at least two full generations of poor African American woman to decide when they get pregnant, IF they should risk losing their ability to support her child IF they marry the unemployable father (who was himself educated in less than a quality government school, mandated by the same circumstances with his mother) to live in less than sufficiently quality neighborhoods and the new single mother is told she needs to be a single mother (70% unwed mothers) or have an abortion (300% higher abortion 'choices) OR marry the father and raise their child in a two parent house but one that has less Medicare less food/wick stamps and more expensive housing because she dared to marry her spouse... And while you cram all that on their heads, you make sure to keep the availability of an abortion clinic in their immediate neighborhood with as little a waiting period as possible (75% of all abortion clinics located in African American Neighborhoods).


Oh, good for you, I'm so glad you've decided to support and defend the status-quo. :rolleyes:

Yes, of course to suggest that black women are capable of choice is ridiculous in your eyes, but which of us is being racist? I happen to believe that black women are as capable of a rational choice as everyone else, but then it would be racist to suggest otherwise, now wouldn't it?

Do you know the only portion of the black population to have a decrease in birth rate? Teenagers. Blacks have seen the greatest decrease in teenage pregnancy of any group while their birth rate remains above the average. It seems like abortion is causing a significant decrease in birth rate that exceeds that of other populations it can ONLY be among teenagers. Hardly evidence of racist practices. In fact, denying abortions to black women because you feel their teenagers aren't having enough children seems a little silly, doesn't it? Why don't you stop talking about conspiracies with no evidence and look at how the available evidence does not support your theory.