NationStates Jolt Archive


Views on the current "anti-war" movement.

Eutrusca
01-10-2005, 00:32
COMMENTARY: If you're truly "anti-war" you need to read this.


Bad Choice for an Antiwar Voice (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/29/AR2005092901705.html)

By Charles Krauthammer

Friday, September 30, 2005; Page A19

" 'Harry, what the hell are you doing campaigning for that crippled son-of-a-bitch that killed my son Joe?' [Joseph P.] Kennedy said, referring to his oldest son, who had died in the war. Kennedy went on, saying Roosevelt had caused the war. Truman, by his later account, stood all he could, then told Kennedy to keep quiet or he would throw him out the window." -- "Truman," by David McCullough, Page 328

A large number of Americans feel deep and understandable unease about the war in Iraq and want nothing more than to pull out. But the antiwar movement is singularly disserved by its leadership, such as it is. Its de facto leader is Cindy Sheehan, who catapulted herself into that role by quite brilliantly exploiting the media's hunger for political news during the August recess and by wrapping herself in the courage of her son Casey, who died in Iraq.

Her loss and grief deserve sympathy and respect. However, Sheehan believes that they entitle her to special standing in opposing a war in which her son served, about which he (as far as we know) expressed no misgivings, and for which he indeed reenlisted.

Maureen Dowd of the New York Times claims that Sheehan's "moral authority" on the war is "absolute." This is obtuse. Sheehan's diatribes against George Bush -- "lying bastard"; "filth-spewer and warmonger"; "biggest terrorist in the world" -- have no more moral standing than Joseph Kennedy's vilification of Franklin Roosevelt. And if Sheehan speaks with absolute moral authority, then so does Diane Ibbotson -- and the other mothers who have lost sons in Iraq yet continue to support the mission their sons died for and bitterly oppose Sheehan for discrediting it.

The antiwar movement has found itself ill served by endowing absolute moral authority on a political radical who demanded that American troops leave not just Iraq but "occupied New Orleans." Who blames Israel for her son's death. Who complained that the news media went "100 percent rita" -- "a little wind and a little rain" -- rather than covering other things in the world, meaning her.

Most tellingly, Sheehan demands withdrawal not just from Iraq but also from Afghanistan, a war that is not only just by every possible measure but also remarkably successful. The mainstream opposition view of Iraq is that, while deposing the murderous Saddam Hussein was a moral and even worthy cause, the enterprise was misconceived and/or bungled, too ambitious and unwinnable, and therefore not worth expending more American lives. That is not Sheehan's view. Like the hard left in the Vietnam War, she declares the mission itself corrupt and evil: The good guys are the "freedom fighters" -- the very ones who, besides killing thousands of Iraqi innocents, killed her son, too.

You don't build a mass movement on that. Nor on antiwar rallies like the one last weekend in Washington, organized and run by a front group for the Workers World Party. The WWP is descended from Cold War Stalinists who found other communists insufficiently rigorous for refusing to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary. Thus a rally ostensibly against war is run by a group that supported the Soviet invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan, the massacre in Tiananmen Square, and a litany of the very worst mass murderers of our time, including Slobodan Milosevic, Hussein and Kim Jong Il. You don't seize the moral high ground in America with fellow travelers such as these.

For all the Vietnam nostalgia at the Washington march, things are different today. In Vietnam it could never be plausibly argued that Ho Chi Minh was training commandos to bring down skyscrapers in New York. Today, however, Americans know that this is precisely what our jihadist enemies have pledged to do.

Moreover, Vietnam offered a seeming middle way between immediate withdrawal on the one hand and staying the course on the other: negotiations, which in the end did take place. Today there is no one to negotiate with, no middle ground, not even an apparent plausible compromise. The only choices are to succeed in establishing a self-sufficient, democratic Iraq or to call an abject retreat that not only gives Iraq over to the tender mercies of people who specialize in blowing up innocents but also makes it a base of operations for worldwide jihad.

The very fact that Cindy Sheehan and her WWP comrades are so enthusiastic for the latter outcome tells you how difficult it will be to turn widespread discontent about the war into a mainstream antiwar movement.
Bertram Stantrous
01-10-2005, 00:39
Oh boy, you can accuse the left of being communists again!
Serapindal
01-10-2005, 00:41
Join the ATSOOW

The Association to Throw Sheehan Out of a Window.
Zanato
01-10-2005, 00:43
Someone should dispose of Sheehan.
Dobbsworld
01-10-2005, 00:54
Someone should dispose of Sheehan.
Someone should dispose of militarism.
Nadkor
01-10-2005, 01:03
Truman, by his later account, stood all he could, then told Kennedy to keep quiet or he would throw him out the window.
Freedom of speech....beautiful, isn't it?


You forget that it isn't just within the US that anti-war movements exist, and beyond the US Sheehan is a non-entity. Nobody outside the US knows, or cares, who she is.
Psychotic Mongooses
01-10-2005, 01:33
You forget that it isn't just within the US that anti-war movements exist, and beyond the US Sheehan is a non-entity. Nobody outside the US knows, or cares, who she is.

Seconded.
Gymoor II The Return
01-10-2005, 01:42
Krauthammer is a Republican tool. Meaning: A. That he's is a mouthpiece for the Republican Party. B. He's a Republican and a Tool.
Eutrusca
01-10-2005, 01:43
Someone should dispose of militarism.
I agree! You can start with the Jihadists. :)
Eutrusca
01-10-2005, 01:44
Krauthammer is a Republican tool. Meaning: A. That he's is a mouthpiece for the Republican Party. B. He's a Republican and a Tool.
Whatever. Why not at least try addressing the points he makes rather than simply dismissing him out of hand? :rolleyes:
Uzb3kistan
01-10-2005, 01:47
This is stupid. I went to both Crawford and the march in Washington and this is a load of honky. I got to talk to and get to know Cindy on a few occasions, and the image that the mainstream media has painted of her is just wrong, and flat out cruel. First of all, the movement isn't lead by Cindy Sheehan. It's just portrayed that way by mainstream media. There were other "Gold Star Moms" and families there besides Cindy Sheehan. A large portion of the new size of the anti-war movement might have been started by Cindy, but in no way is lead by her. The movement goes on without her, she doesn't control us...

Secondly, I'm a socialist, and just because I'm a socialist does not mean in anyway that I supported the genocides of USSR and North Korea. That's a really stupid assumtion. That's like saying all Japanese people currently support what they did to the Chinese and Koreans just for the simple fact that they are Japanese.

I could go on and debate this, but I've got to go.
Teh_pantless_hero
01-10-2005, 01:49
But the antiwar movement is singularly disserved by its leadership, such as it is. Its de facto leader is Cindy Sheehan, who catapulted herself into that role by quite brilliantly exploiting the media's hunger for political news during the August recess and by wrapping herself in the courage of her son Casey, who died in Iraq.
That and incessant anti-anti-Sheehan protests.
Eutrusca
01-10-2005, 01:52
That and incessant anti-Sheehan protests.

Freedom of speech....beautiful, isn't it?

:D
Dobbsworld
01-10-2005, 01:53
I agree! You can start with the Jihadists. :)
Great! And we can follow up with US Forces. :cool:
Eutrusca
01-10-2005, 01:54
Great! And we can follow up with US Forces. :cool:
Nope. Try again. :)
Dobbsworld
01-10-2005, 02:07
Nope. Try again. :)
Not fun when the shoe is on the other foot, eh? Tsk.

Okay, for you my friend a deal:

US Forces stay for now.
We dispose of NORAD and dismantle NATO.
We instigate multilateral, incremental and proportional descalations of most or all military forces wherever possible, including US Forces.
We redirect military policy through our elected officials to more-or-less permanently re-cast the diminished military bodies of the world from being would-be adventurers to being purely defensive organizations.
We place a greater emphasis on effective international policing organizations.

And eventually, say in another two or three generations, none of us will have militaristic organizations anywhere, with the exception of police.
Teh_pantless_hero
01-10-2005, 02:12
:D
Except I wasn't complaining, but I see you support freedom of speech, as long as you agree with it.
Soheran
01-10-2005, 02:13
I am totally in favor of the peace movement.

Opposition to current policy is quite possibly the only way human survival can be assured over the next century.
Imperial Dark Rome
01-10-2005, 02:18
Great! And we can follow up with US Forces. :cool:

Your not taking my guns!

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~
Kroisistan
01-10-2005, 02:30
*reads article*

:shiftyeyes:

*picks up phone*

Hello? Is this the International Communist Conspiracy? ... It is? Excellent. Yea, we've got a problem. ... Nope, not Bush this time. ... Yea, somebody found us. ... Unfortunately yes - they know we're behind the peace movement. *duh dah duhhhhh*

Plan X-32? Are you sure? Little bit harsh, ain't it? ... Eliminate him you say? I'm not entirely sure that's a good idea. ... It's not up to me? Came from above? I see. ... Really? Well if the Premier says so. ... Well, if you must.

Okay then, dispatch the teams. ... In Black vans? I can get some black vans. He'll never even see it coming. Hows about a nice big Evil Commie laugh before we solve our little leak and restore our anonymity so we can get back to undermining America? On three..... Muwahahahahahaha. God, I love it when we do that. ... Okay, I'll let you go now. Good luck Comrades.

*leaves phone hanging off hook, lights up a cigarette, takes a drag and walks away into the darkness*
Imperial Dark Rome
01-10-2005, 02:33
Someone should dispose of militarism.

Someone should dispose of pacifism.

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~
Beer and Guns
01-10-2005, 02:54
Someone should dispose of all these empty beer bottles .
Smunkeeville
01-10-2005, 02:59
Join the ATSOOW

The Association to Throw Sheehan Out of a Window.
are there dues? t-shirts?
Non Aligned States
01-10-2005, 03:14
Nope. Try again. :)

Hypocritical isn't it? It would be like Truman telling Kruschev (sp?) that he couldn't have his nukes while the US kept theirs. Kruschev would have mooned the US if he had been the type to do so.

Either way, has there even been any attempt for negotiations on either side? Seems to me that the rhetoric is mostly "kill the evil bastards" on both sides.
Vittos Ordination
01-10-2005, 03:17
Here are my thoughts on it:

I wouldn't have to listen to all these political half-wits singing "Give Peace a Chance" and yelling "No blood for oil," if these jerks in the government would stop getting us into bullshit wars.
Beer and Guns
01-10-2005, 03:21
Here are my thoughts on it:

I wouldn't have to listen to all these political half-wits singing "Give Peace a Chance" and yelling "No blood for oil," if these jerks in the government would stop getting us into bullshit wars.


:D change it to " if these jerks in these governments would stop getting us into bullshit wars along with these terrorist " :fluffle:
Vittos Ordination
01-10-2005, 03:25
:D change it to " if these jerks in these governments would stop getting us into bullshit wars along with these terrorist " :fluffle:

I don't think that we can actually fight a war on terrorism. Terrorists are criminals and we should treat them as such. Set up international law enforcement, hunt them down, capture them, but don't start bombing worthless strands of desert.

But I got you, terrorists suck too.
Domici
01-10-2005, 03:26
You forget that it isn't just within the US that anti-war movements exist, and beyond the US Sheehan is a non-entity. Nobody outside the US knows, or cares, who she is.

Seconded.

You mean you also have no idea who she is?
Psychotic Mongooses
01-10-2005, 10:51
You mean you also have no idea who she is?
I only know who she is through snippets off US media and (pretty much) on here.

She has no effect on other anti-war movements around the world- no one cares who she is, no one really bothers with her outside of the United States. Shes insignificant.

Stop treating her as some overarching demagogue in charge of this global sentiment- no one outside the US CARES about her!
BackwoodsSquatches
01-10-2005, 11:54
I'll say it again, Eutrusca, but you'll probably ignore my post like you do every time.
Of all the people in thw world who should support Sheehans right to speak out against whatever she feels the need to, it should be you.

You who went to war for this country, and took an oath to support the constitution.
Part of that oath means that you support free speech, wich is clearly outlined in it.

You dont have to agree with her, but I would expect better from a veteran, and someone who outspokenly loves his country.

These contant rants about her, just prove to me that its not free speech you endorse, but any rhetoric wich follows your political leanings.
Furthermore, how many of these "Eut really hates Sheehan" threads are you going to make?
Isnt five enough?

You can jump up and down screaming "Shes dishonoring the memory of her son!" all you want, but in the end, the woman is still bereft of her child.
Cant you muster a little pity for a mother of a fallen soldier?
You, of all people?

I guess, I dont really understand you.

*shrugs*
Leonstein
01-10-2005, 11:59
Today there is no one to negotiate with, no middle ground, not even an apparent plausible compromise.
I wonder what would happen if anyone actually tried...