NationStates Jolt Archive


A Brief History of Modern and Classical Liberalism and Conservatism

Chomskyrion
30-09-2005, 21:41
I've been taking a Political Ideologies class. And I've come to learn how Liberalism and Conservatism have both evolved. This is just a short history of both, with a bit of discussion on their relation to Libertarianism.

Liberalism and Conservatism were first identified after the French revolution. The idea of "left" and "right" came because the more radical progressivists sat on the left and the more Conservative traditionalists sat on the right, when their government met.

Both ideologies came about as a result of class-conflict. In France and most parts of Europe, the nobility were a tiny minority, but they controlled almost all of the wealth. In France's government, the nobility and the clergy received two votes, while the common people received only one vote. So, of course, this lack of a balance of power led to the aristocracy being completely tax-exempt, while everyone else was over-taxed.

In the past, this class-conflict did not exist, because of feudalism. Because in feudalism, the only way to develop power is to be born into it. A bunch of peasants may oppose you, but since none of them can become rich, even through work, there's no way that any of them could ever initiate a coup de'tat.

But once we made the transition from feudalism to capitalism, now, common people could become incredibly rich, just as rich as the nobility or even wealthier. They reasoned, many people who weren't nobles were just as rich as nobles, and weren't any different except by their families, so why should only one of them taxed? And unlike in feudalism, this oppressed class finally had the power to fight for equality. And they did, through the French revolution.

The revolution did not merely change our government or affect only France, but rather, it enriched the essence of our being. Because it also affected how we value life and beauty. In a sense, if the Enlightenment were an earthquake, the French revolution would be its aftershock. Because our perceptions of beauty also changed, moving from the Classical, Greek and Roman aesthetic of order and symmetry, to the romantic aesthetic of beauty for its uniqueness and sentiment.

And it was during this time that two ideas emerged: That the French revolution for democracy, carried out by progressivists was good, or that the French revolution, opposed by the nobility and the clergy, was bad. It was in this that Classical Liberalism and Classical Conservatism emerged.

It must be emphasized, however, that these were certainly Classical Conservatism and Classical Liberalism. Most of the first Conservatives favored monarchy because they considered democracy, in any form, to be mob-rule. They advocated Catholic Theocracy or at the very least, royalty that was "God-ordained." Meanwhile, it was Classical Liberals who emphasized free trade and capitalism, while Classical Conservatives couldn't care less, one way or the other. So long as whatever monetary system did not violate the existing social order, it wasn't an issue.

Classical Conservatives' main emphasis was that Liberals' views of humanity were idealistic, that positive change is brought about slowly through experience rather than through intellectual deliberation and that local governments are favorable to national governments. The father of Conservatism is Edmund Burke. And although he supported republicanism and the American revolution, he also argued that the middle ages was not such a "bad" time. So, although Classical Conservatism is quite different from Modern Conservatism, you can still see it has its roots there. Modern Conservatism is essentially a mix of Classical Conservative social policy and Classical Liberal social policy. Classical Conservatives held no regard for individual liberty, but merely tradition. But today, modern Conservatives would agree that liberty is important.

It must also be pointed out, though, that Libertarians are incorrect to immediately equate Libertarianism with Classical Liberalism. Classical Liberals did support unfettered free trade, but not with the same zeal as Libertarians, and they still recognized the government's right to regulation. Jeremy Bentham and most Classical Liberals advocated utilitarianism, "The greatest good for the greatest number of people." This is quite different from Libertarianism, in that they believe governments should be dominated by economic progress, "might is right", as an ideal, and not the greatest amount of pleasure for the most people.

And they interpret Classical Liberalism in a very anarchist way. For example, they advocate Mill's harm principle, but only in terms of government, when Mill wrote that it applies "individually or collectively." Mill's harm principle states that no one can violate another person's liberty, unless it is to prevent harm. Libertarians apply this principle to the state, but not to individuals and not to businesses. Classical Liberals were not anti-statist. They advocated radical progress, meaning, the potential for the growth of the state, whereas it was Conservatives who advocated a smaller government. And today, although Libertarians also advocate radical progress, they also advocate smaller government.

So, although Libertarians has its roots in Classical Liberalism, it has also clearly been influenced by Classical Conservatism and is its own distinct ideology, rather than the "true" Liberalism. Above all, Libertarianism is a group of reactionaries opposed to how Liberalism has changed.

In the 20th century, Liberalism, all over the world, was undoubtedly heavily influenced by Marxism. After the Great Depression, which came about as a result of both World Wars (in America, there was also the stockmarket crash of 1929), the world had experienced the fact that Classical economics do not work. And currently, the overwhelming majority of economists advocate some form of economic regulation, aside from basic things such as anti-trust laws. In America, the Federal Reserve is and has been an enormous success, each year, demonstrating quite clearly how it balances the economy like a scale. When our rate of growth is too high, raising interest rates to avoid a crash, and when our rate of growth is too slow, lowering interest rates to stimulate growth. Without the Fed, our economy would face the enormous peaks and valleys we faced before, the enormous "peaks" being like the incredible economic surge of the Industrial Revolution and the "valleys" being like the dire despair of the Great Depression.

Libertarians and even Conservatives may argue that we would have gotten out of the Great Depression far more quickly had Marxist programs like social security in America and national insurance in Britain not been established. But to borrow a Conservative phrase, "It looks good on paper, but doesn't work in reality." Certainly, we would have gotten out of the Great Depression far more quickly if we'd never created any social programs, but that would not have been politically feasible. We'd previously adopted Classical Liberal policies and, as a result of it (in addition to two idiotic wars), our societies became miserably poor. It wouldn't have been realistic for any government to refuse to create any social welfare programs because, people had seen how the world was changing... If the government hadn't acted, then many people would've starved to death in a few short years, as opposed to suffering over several years, and the people would have revolted. Even though social welfare arguably didn't more effectively address the problem, it was the only realistic way to address the problem. That''s why almost all western countries implemented these social programs and how they had no choice. Even Conservative theories on addressing poverty do not immediately solve the problem, but need a few years for the economy to grow and for jobs to be created. This was a few years that governments during the Great Depression did not have.

And so, in the 20th century, all over the world, Liberals and even Conservatives, to a lesser extent, became influenced by Marxism. It doesn't go against Liberalism, but complements it quite nicely. Classical Liberals fought the oppressive nobility and clergy, and now, there was a new enemy to fight, just as wealthy and, from their point-of-view, just as oppressive. Modern Liberalism is Classical Liberalism, except with a tinge of Marxism. It would be going a bit far to outright call them Neomarxists, however, as Liberals' emphasize liberty far more than class-conflict, don't use the Communist Manifesto as their Bible, recognize Communism as a failure, and lastly, Marxism came after Liberalism. This new ideology of Modern Liberalism is a continuation of Classical Liberalism, not a new form of Marxism.

Finally, Libertarians are reactionaries to this new, more Marxist Liberalism. This is clearly evident if you take the Communist mantra and you'll find that Libertarianism is its anti-thesis. Communism states, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Libertarianism states, "From each according to their choice, to each according to their ability." Economically-speaking, whereas Marxism advocates sanctioning fairness and equality, Libertarianism and Modern Conservatism support the doctrine of might is right. And so, Modern Liberalism is between Marxism and Modern Conservatism, leaning towards Marxism, and Modern Conservatism is between Classical Conservatism and Classical Liberalism, leaning towards Classical Conservatism.
Lacadaemon
30-09-2005, 21:52
According to History of the English Speaking Peoples, the expression right wing dates back to henry the VIII. It was he who divided the parliament in order to encourage its assent to his laws. Those who agreed with the king were instructed to stand to his right, and those who disagreed to stand to his left. The idea was of course that no-one would publicly defy the king and stand on his right. (It didn't always work).
Whallop
30-09-2005, 22:36
Interesting read but there isn't a lot of accuracy in it seeing that most of the part I can verify from what I've studied is wrong.

If you want a good description of what libertarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian) is about go look it up on the wikipedia.
There is for example a correct description on the non agression axiom espoused by libertarians. It does not make a distinction between an entity (for example a government) or an individual. This basic principle also sets very strick limits on what a government can do (since most of the actions of current governments are based on (a threat of) violence against person or property).

Then you got your history wrong. The great depression was between two world wars. It did not happen because of either one. It was just another depression like all the ones that happened before and which corrected themselves quickly without government intervention, the difference being that the 1929 one met a government that decided the only way to fix the depression was to intervene, intervene and intervene some more. Only reason that the US got out of that one was that the US joined WW2.
So the problem is that the newly espoused theory of how the economy did not work, it was only blamed on the old theories to absolve the government from wrong doing.
The Fed has indeed been an enormous success but not in the way you describe. It allows for continous government expansion by turning government debt into money. It was very successful in prolonging the depression, which it was supposed to have prevented from ever happening, by pumping more and more money into an economy that to get healthy again needed to reduce the amount of money (the main function of a depression).

About those project that should not have started. First the american constitution does not allow them (but then again it was a just a piece of paper since Lincoln ignored the provision that allowed seccession). Secondly those projects were partly funded by the Fed buying government debt papers with freshly printed IOUs and partly funded by increasing taxation. Both hampered recovery. You claim that a what looks good on paper does not work and then you yourself go into exactly this kind of speculation. What I can only describe as what looks bad on paper does not neccessarily have to occur that way.
Besides most western countries did not implement social programs because they had no choice. Every single program was made for vote buying. A republic/representative democracy/democracy can only exist for as long as the voters do not realise they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. The economy would not have needed years to recover, all previous depressions lasted 6 months or less.

Finally Libertarianism is not might makes right. That implies coercion and coercion is against one of the pillars that the ideology is build on. If you want to pit Libertarianism against a marxist ideology pick one that doesn't recognize private property, one of the other pillars that libertarianism is build on.
Chomskyrion
30-09-2005, 23:16
Then you got your history wrong. The great depression was between two world wars. It did not happen because of either one.
According to the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression#Misallocation_of_Credit):

One theory according to contemporary economists such as Peter Temin, as well as observers at the time such as John Maynard Keynes, is that international finance never recovered from the strains of World War I. After the world war there had been a rapid increase in industrialization, as well as sharp cuts in armaments by the major powers, which caused a dramatic increase in productive capacity, particularly outside Europe, without a corresponding increase in sustained demand. Fixed exchange rates and free convertibility gave way to a compromised gold standard that lacked the stability to rebuild world trade. According to this view, the major problem was that the world financial system did not have the ability to increase aggregate demand as fast as supply was increasing. There was an "over investment" in the late 1920s, which lead to a financial bubble that finally came crashing down into a vicious circle of deflation.

It was just another depression like all the ones that happened before and which corrected themselves quickly without government intervention, the difference being that the 1929 one met a government that decided the only way to fix the depression was to intervene, intervene and intervene some more.
LOL. The "Great" Depression was just like any other?! Black Thursday, the largest stockmarket crash in history?! You are delusional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions

I'd particularly like to point out these two:
#1 Long Depression - 1873 to 1896, begins with the collapse of the Vienna Stock Exchange and spreads throughout the world. Some historians do not believe it is actually one large recession.
#2 Panic of 1893 - 1873 to 1896, failure of the U.S. Reading Railroad and withdrawal of European investment leads to a stock market and banking collapse

You also ignore the fact that the entire world became more Marxist during the Great Depression, implementing social programs. It wasn't just the U.S. and the New Deal. Almost every civilized nations during the 20th century substantially increased their social welfare. In fact, the United States has lagged behind them all. Out of the 30 OECD countries, we come in fourth for least amount of welfare. So, if you argue that we have a "welfare state" in America, then you must argue that virtually every civilized country in the world has a welfare state.

Only reason that the US got out of that one was that the US joined WW2.
How did entering WW2 generate income?

War increases, not decreases, national debt. It also shifts more resources towards killing people instead of paying down current debt and funding useful government programs. I should think that would be abundantly clear with this last war.

So the problem is that the newly espoused theory of how the economy did not work, it was only blamed on the old theories to absolve the government from wrong doing.
And modern economists today (who tend to agree with conservative economists) still do this? :)

The Fed has indeed been an enormous success but not in the way you describe. It allows for continous government expansion by turning government debt into money.
And also protecting the government from real deficit by being able to temporarily borrow instead of raise taxes.

It was very successful in prolonging the depression, which it was supposed to have prevented from ever happening, by pumping more and more money into an economy that to get healthy again needed to reduce the amount of money (the main function of a depression).
But it reduced the desparity of it. You're valuing human suffering in terms of quantity, instead of quality. In my opinion, it's far better for people to live miserably for several years than to have some of them die over a few short years. The point completely flew by you. No government during that time implemented the economic policy you're mentioning because it simply wasn't politically-feasible. What you're asserting is hindsight and ignores the political climate of the time. It's based purely upon economics and ignores how people would react, politically and socially.

About those project that should not have started. First the american constitution does not allow them (but then again it was a just a piece of paper since Lincoln ignored the provision that allowed seccession).
OK, nevermind. I can spot a fanatic when I see one. A supporter of the Confederation and probably returning the Gold Standard, and believing that the Federal Reserve was a massive conspiracy.

I tip my tin-foil hat to you, fine sir, but my debate with you is over. Good luck finding your marbles.
Brians Test
30-09-2005, 23:20
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... *kksnort* huh? wha?? where am I?
Chomskyrion
01-10-2005, 00:59
It's nice to see that Nationstates posters have such a keen interest in history. Truly, you are of the finest pedigree of intellectuals and geniuses. Your many brilliant questions and comments, in the form of one-line posts usually involving vulgarity and irrelevant subjects, sincerely tickle my brain and intrigue me!
BAAWA
01-10-2005, 04:00
Want to really know about classical liberalism? http://www.mises.org/liberal.asp

And want to really know about the Great Depression and the others before it? http://www.mises.org/rothbard/agd/contents.asp
Vegas-Rex
01-10-2005, 04:12
Wait, so how does the Philosophical definition of Liberalism (Rawlsian-type Human Rights for all stuff) relate to this stuff? That's what Liberalism is defined as now (hence the term "liberal democracy" applies to us even now).
Leonstein
01-10-2005, 05:50
Want to really know about classical liberalism? http://www.mises.org/liberal.asp

And want to really know about the Great Depression and the others before it? http://www.mises.org/rothbard/agd/contents.asp
Mises needs to get his blood pressure down. His emotions repeatedly get in the way of any sort of sensical argumentation...don't pay too much attention.
Check Schumpeter instead.
BAAWA
01-10-2005, 13:16
Mises needs to get his blood pressure down. His emotions repeatedly get in the way of any sort of sensical argumentation...don't pay too much attention.
ad hominem fallacy.