NationStates Jolt Archive

To those that tend to attack the slippery slope argument:
Dutch marriage: 2 women, 1 man (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46583)
I'm not asking you if it's morally right or wrong, I'm just saying that slippery slope is a legitimate logical argument.

On an unrelated note, remember when the Dutch were a world power? Whatever happened to that Dutch East India Company?

On an unrelated note, remember when the Dutch were a world power? Whatever happened to that Dutch East India Company?

The indonesians slaughtered them all..

As far as I'm concerned, if fifty men, eight women, and a dog want to get married, that's fine with me.

I am tending more and more to allow my behavior to be dictated by what is literally legal, and what I may be caught for, rather than what I originally believed is moral or ethical.

I find that most successful people, in most fields, follow this practice, and I've spent most of my life being less successful than they are.

It has made a radical improvement in my enjoyment of life, I must admit.

So I don't want to rain on anyone else's parade. Far be it from me to tell anyone that their view of marriage is wrong.

It's not a slippery slope, it's a next step to further one's freedom, in this case sexual freedom. And the Dutch East India Company went broke in 1799.

Yeah, I see the slippery slope. If you restrict marriage to only heterosexual couples, it's only a matter of time before you ban it altogether.

Or perhaps not. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I see the slippery slope. If you restrict marriage to only heterosexual couples, it's only a matter of time before you ban it altogether.

Or perhaps not. :rolleyes:
Point taken, and duly noted.

i decline to accept that one single country allowing polygamic civil unions some years after allwoing homosexual civil unions is making the slippery slope argument valid.
you may not set a rule into stone by one example only.

i note that DS made my point in a truly hilarious fashion *bows*

i also agree with sierra's first statement, except for the dog 'cause it has not way to express his will pro or against the marraige.

i note that DS made my point in a truly hilarious fashion *bows*

i also agree with sierra's first statement, except for the dog 'cause it has not way to express his will pro or against the marraige.

There are many dog owners who would argue that a dog can give consent, and as for me, who am I to argue the point. If they want to have sex with dogs, that's their business.

Actually, most of the arguments that are made in favor of "traditional" marriage are the same arguments that favor polygamy, especially the 2 women, 1 man polygamy that was the example given in this thread.

Slippery slope is not a valid argument. Since there is no reason to think that one step in the slope should affect the next. Each step should be judged separately according to its own merits/flaws.

If you could logically prove that by making the first step it will be impossible to stop then in that circumstance it is it valid. But only then. And that would be a very difficult thing to prove.

Again...let the people do what they want. If they are happy and willing to take their vows seriously, then by all means carry-on.

I've seen straight couples get divorced over lesser things.

The dog though? Sierra, c'mon...draw the line somwhere. The dog will get shafted on the wedding gifts too. What the hell does he need a blender for?

A blender is probably not an appropriate wedding gift for a dog. But I'm sure that animal lovers everywhere will know what to buy for them.

The dog though? Sierra, c'mon...draw the line somwhere. The dog will get shafted on the wedding gifts too. What the hell does he need a blender for?Yeah, and how is the dog going to invite its family to the wedding? And if the dog is the bride, how is the bride's father going to pay?

While I have zero issue with this, I was still rather amazed to see this. It is quite the odd story to read, but these people do have the right.

Dr. Evil got married to two bi dutch wenches? How cool is that!?!

To those that tend to attack the slippery slope argument:
Dutch marriage: 2 women, 1 man (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46583)
I'm not asking you if it's morally right or wrong, I'm just saying that slippery slope is a legitimate logical argument.

On an unrelated note, remember when the Dutch were a world power? Whatever happened to that Dutch East India Company?
And this is a problem how? If people want to "marry" as groups of ten, I still see no reason why that's anyone's business but their own.

BTW ... this has been around for as long as humanity has been around: google "Polyamory." ( minus the quotation marks )

Dr. Evil got married to two bi dutch wenches? How cool is that!?!
Whew! If that had been legal after I got back from Vietnam, I would never have lived long enough to meet any of you! Wow! What a tragedy that would have been, eh? :D

2 Girls and 1 guy, I wonder if the girls will double team him when they get into arguments?
I do not think I could handle the amount of nagging I would get with two wifes.

Dr. Evil got married to two bi dutch wenches? How cool is that!?!

The question is, did Vilma ritualistically shave his testicles?

To those that tend to attack the slippery slope argument:
Dutch marriage: 2 women, 1 man (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46583)
I'm not asking you if it's morally right or wrong, I'm just saying that slippery slope is a legitimate logical argument.

On an unrelated note, remember when the Dutch were a world power? Whatever happened to that Dutch East India Company?

Well, so far you have only named the slope, you haven't stated yet what disaster it supposedly leads down towards. Until you name that, there really isn't anything to debate about, is there?

Dr. Evil got married to two bi dutch wenches? How cool is that!?!

Not only that, but they are 11 and 15 years younger than him. Get down with yo bad self, papa!

2 Girls and 1 guy, I wonder if the girls will double team him when they get into arguments?

I do not think I could handle the amount of nagging I would get with two wifes.

:eek: :p

God I heart the Netherlands. Free-est Nation on Earth. (Yes they are. So the US can just stop being a no good Poser. :p )

I never understood why polygamy was illegal anyways. I mean come on what does it matter who or how many marry as long as it's nonabusive or coersive?

I mean come on what does it matter who or how many marry as long as it's nonabusive or coersive?
Good point. Most of the opposition to polyamory comes from our cultural history. However, what you've pointed out above is one reason incest is illegal in most places (the high probability of there being a coercive or abusive element in it).

Who wants to raise their daughter in a country that legalizes prostitution and sanctifies polygamy? Talk about objectifying women :rolleyes:

Who wants to raise their daughter in a country that legalizes prostitution and sanctifies polygamy? Talk about objectifying women :rolleyes:
Prostitution is only women? I understood a number of men have entered the business as well. In the Netherlands, how many people are so poor that they are forced into the business? And how many choose it freely? Here in the US, where prostitution is largely banned, it's usually because people are too poor to live without working, but not skilled enough (and without the opportunities enough for getting skilled) to find other work.

And who says this polygamy is explicitly polygyny? Maybe it's polyandry as well.

Prostitution is only women? I understood a number of men have entered the business as well. In the Netherlands, how many people are so poor that they are forced into the business? And how many choose it freely? Here in the US, where prostitution is largely banned, it's usually because people are too poor to live without working, but not skilled enough (and without the opportunities enough for getting skilled) to find other work.



How does that make it better? It's bad enough that some parents have to drive their children past two drug dealers and a prostitute on their way to shool as it is now without compounding the problem by making it 'legal.' It would then be beyond the reach of the community to be able to enforce standards of acceptable behavior at all. How would that make this a better world? It would not.

Um, did anyone else notice that this came from WorldNetDaily? Has anyone actually confirmed this one? Because I'm pretty sure that WND is not what most of us would call a reputable source.


But if it is true, so what? All involved parties were fully informed and consenting, so...no big deal.

Um, did anyone else notice that this came from WorldNetDaily? Has anyone actually confirmed this one? Because I'm pretty sure that WND is not what most of us would call a reputable source.


But if it is true, so what? All involved parties were fully informed and consenting, so...no big deal.

Yes, this actually happened. I could send you the links of some Dutch newspapers but I'm too lazy to do that. Btw, it wasn't a big news item in the Netherlands.

Who wants to raise their daughter in a country that legalizes prostitution and sanctifies polygamy? Talk about objectifying women :rolleyes:

...

*raises hand*

You know, I'm sure this whole slippery slope started when black people were allowed to marry white people. :rolleyes:

Who wants to raise their daughter in a country that legalizes prostitution and sanctifies polygamy? Talk about objectifying women :rolleyes:
No state can "sanctify" any kind of marriage. If you don't want your daughter to be exposed to prostitution, then I suggest that you make an effort to do a good job of raising her.

To those that tend to attack the slippery slope argument:
Dutch marriage: 2 women, 1 man (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46583)
I'm not asking you if it's morally right or wrong, I'm just saying that slippery slope is a legitimate logical argument.



It usually is, trouble is that people tend to be arbitrary if not scapegoat as to precisely where the slope begins.

To those that tend to attack the slippery slope argument:
Dutch marriage: 2 women, 1 man (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46583)
I'm not asking you if it's morally right or wrong, I'm just saying that slippery slope is a legitimate logical argument.


DeBruijn insisted there is no jealousy between the three partners because Mirjam and Bianca are bisexual.
I so want a polygamous marriage....seriously. *sigh* A couple of husbands, a couple of wives and total bliss!

And this is a problem how? If people want to "marry" as groups of ten, I still see no reason why that's anyone's business but their own.

BTW ... this has been around for as long as humanity has been around: google "Polyamory." ( minus the quotation marks )
Well most Westerners don't realise that polygamy is the norm all throughout the African continent, and most of the Middle East as well as parts of Asia. Yeah, that'd be about HALF THE WORLD.

Who wants to raise their daughter in a country that legalizes prostitution and sanctifies polygamy?
I defintely do not agree with legalizing prostitution, however ... marriage is an institution, not a religious rite. As long as polygamy and polygnany ( and polyamory! ) are all accepted, I see no reason why society shouldn't accept their decisions.

How does that make it better? It's bad enough that some parents have to drive their children past two drug dealers and a prostitute on their way to shool as it is now without compounding the problem by making it 'legal.'
Actually, legalising drugs and prostitution would eliminate, not compound the problem. For example, you don't have a problem passing places that sell alcohol do you? If drugs were legal that's where they would be sold, not on the street. Similarly if prostitution were legal it would be confined to brothels, not out on the street for all to see.

You're reacting emotionally. Start thinking logically.

Actually, legalising drugs and prostitution would eliminate, not compound the problem. For example, you don't have a problem passing places that sell alcohol do you? If drugs were legal that's where they would be sold, not on the street. Similarly if prostitution were legal it would be confined to brothels, not out on the street for all to see.

You're reacting emotionally. Start thinking logically.

You should start thinking about actual results and reality instead of what you 'predict' should happen with your 'logic.'

Legalized prostitution DOES NOT reduce the criminal aspects of the behaviors involved with prostitution...

An article in Le Monde in 1997 found that 80% of prostitutes in the Netherlands were foreigners and 70% had no immigration papers, suggesting that at least some were victims of sex trafficking, forced prostitution. The Netherlands is one of a number of destination countries in Europe for trafficked women (many of whom are led to believe by organised criminals that they are being offered work in hotels or restaurants or in child care and are forced into prostitution with the threat or actual use of violence).


And Child Prostitution is not resolved there either.
http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/netherlands011218.html

Yeah, well. Netherlands, what would you expect?

The slippery slope is indeed valid - all societies are on many slippery slopes. All societies are changing, and must find a balance - which we never have found yet, as we slip all over the place.

To those that tend to attack the slippery slope argument:
Dutch marriage: 2 women, 1 man (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46583)
I'm not asking you if it's morally right or wrong, I'm just saying that slippery slope is a legitimate logical argument.

On an unrelated note, remember when the Dutch were a world power? Whatever happened to that Dutch East India Company?
Given that the Dutch have lower divorce rates, teen pregnancy rates, abortion rates, sex crime rates, and homicide rates, I would be inclined to say, "Who the hell cares?" If letting consenting adults marry in unusual combinations is the price we would pay for those benefits, I say bring on the polyamory!

Who wants to raise their daughter in a country that legalizes prostitution and sanctifies polygamy? Talk about objectifying women :rolleyes:But a country that uses federal money to promote hymen fetishism, "traditional" sex roles, and grotesque sexual double standards...that's not objectifying women at all. Nope, not one bit. [/sarcasm]

Any parent who actually cared about their daughter would prefer to rear her in a place where she would be less likely to be raped, murdered, and battered by a lover. Well, guess what? The Dutch stats beat American stats on every single count. It takes a supremely disturbing kind of selfishness to put your own sexual hangups above the welfare of your children.

But a country that uses federal money to promote hymen fetishism, "traditional" sex roles, and grotesque sexual double standards...that's not objectifying women at all. Nope, not one bit. [/sarcasm]

Any parent who actually cared about their daughter would prefer to rear her in a place where she would be less likely to be raped, murdered, and battered by a lover. Well, guess what? The Dutch stats beat American stats on every single count. It takes a supremely disturbing kind of selfishness to put your own sexual hangups above the welfare of your children.

What's supremely disturbing is the kind of nonsense you babble on about...

Netherlands, The, population 16.1 million
Women

~ Violence against women is a problem. A report released during the year by the Social Affairs Ministry showed that each year approximately 200,000 women, particularly ethnic minorities, are victims of violence by their former or present spouses or partners. Each year approximately 50,000 women suffer from serious violence, (defined as battering, physical and mental abuse, manslaughter, and sexual violence), and 60 to 80 die of domestic violence. Marital rape is a crime and carries the same penalty as nonmarital rape, a maximum of 8 years' imprisonment. Spousal abuse carries a one-third higher penalty than ordinary battery. Fewer than 10 percent of victims of domestic violence report to the police; most cases are not reported out of fear, shame, or guilt. Per year approximately 800 men are prosecuted for battering their partners.

~ Prostitution is legal, and since 2000 the law no longer treats "organizing the prostitution of somebody else" as a crime when done with the consent of the prostitute. However, it is illegal to force a person into prostitution (see Section 6.f.). All brothels require licenses issued by local governments with strict conditions to be observed by brothel owners. The Government believes that by decriminalizing prostitution, licensing brothel operators, and improving working conditions and health care for prostitutes, while at the same time prohibiting the employment of minors and illegal immigrants, prostitution will be less susceptible to criminal organizations trafficking in women and children. In addition the licensing system in theory makes prostitution more transparent and easier for the police to monitor. However, between 20,000 and 30,000 individuals are employed in prostitution, and it is estimated that half of all prostitutes originate in non-European Union countries and are residing in the country illegally. In addition trafficking in women for the purpose of prostitution remained a problem, despite Government efforts to combat it (see Section 6.f.).

~Nevertheless women often are underemployed and have less chance of promotion than their male colleagues. Approximately 42 percent of women hold part-time jobs. They often hold lower level positions than men, mostly because of their part-time status. According to the Ministry of Social Affairs and Employment, in 2000 the average hourly earnings of men exceeded those of women by 23 percent; however, some women continued to make steady progress by moving into professional and high-visibility jobs. According to the Ministry of Social Affairs and Employment, women working in the private sector on average earn 23 percent less than men, although when 'corrected' to take into account the level of experience and expertise required for the jobs, this differential is reduced to 7 percent.

Children:
~According to the Child Abuse Reporting and Advisory Center, an estimated 40,000 to 80,000 children are victims of child abuse each year, although only approximately 20,000 formal reports of child abuse are registered. As a result of abuse, 40 to 50 children die each year. The U.N. Commission on Childrens' Rights in 1999 expressed concern about the Government's performance in this area, in particular, the long waiting list for assistance to abused children. Approximately 7,000 abused children were on the waiting list at year's end. The Council for the Protection of Children, operated through the Ministry of Justice, enforces child support orders, investigates cases of child abuse, and recommends remedies ranging from counseling to withdrawal of parental rights. The Government also maintains a popular hot line for children and a network of pediatricians who track suspected cases of child abuse on a confidential basis.

It looks to me that they compare favorably to Mississippi but about the same as Massachusetts and Minnesota. I see no reason to think they are 'better' because of prostitution.





http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eur/8312.htm

What's supremely disturbing is the kind of nonsense you babble on about...

*clipped for length*

It looks to me that they compare favorably to Mississippi but about the same as Massachusetts and Minnesota. I see no reason to think they are 'better' because of prostitution.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eur/8312.htm
Um, Minnesota, Massachusettes, and Mississippi are not countries.

You'll also note that Minnesota and Massachusetts are notoriously "liberal" states, so you've pretty much just argued my point for me...the US states that are closer to the sexual values of the Netherlands are the ones that have the better conditions. Just imagine how much we could improve things if we help the other states catch up!

Yeah, and how is the dog going to invite its family to the wedding? And if the dog is the bride, how is the bride's father going to pay?
And dogs come with shitty dowrys.

Um, Minnesota, Massachusettes, and Mississippi are not countries.

You'll also note that Minnesota and Massachusetts are notoriously "liberal" states, so you've pretty much just argued my point for me...the US states that are closer to the sexual values of the Netherlands are the ones that have the better conditions. Just imagine how much we could improve things if we help the other states catch up!

2000 population census

Netherlands, population 16.1 million

Denmark, population: 5,336,394

Minnesota, population 4.919,479

Massachusetts, 6.349,097

Mississippi, 2,844,658


(Umm, Minnesota elected Jesse Ventura as Governor and Nick Coleman their hard-core hunting dog senator for the republican party who goes around trying to get Annan to resign etc.,)

Also, I never said anything about the US being good enough, there is always room for improvement.

2000 population census

Netherlands, population 16.1 million

Denmark, population: 5,336,394

Minnesota, population 4.919,479

Massachusetts, 6.349,097

Mississippi, 2,844,658

So? My post addressed matters on the NATIONAL/FEDERAL level. If you want to rebutt that, you have to work at the same level :).


(Umm, Minnesota elected Jesse Ventura as Governor and Nick Coleman their hard-core hunting dog senator for the republican party who goes around trying to get Annan to resign etc.,)

Wait, you think JESSE VENTURA was sexually conservative?! The Man With The Pink Boa?!

I'll grant you Norm Coleman, but as somebody who lived in Minnesota for 18 years (and who received at least 7 years of state-sponsored public sex ed from Minnesota schools) I have gotta tell you that it's one of the most "liberal" states in the Union when it comes to sex ed.


Also, I never said anything about the US being good enough, there is always room for improvement.
Right, and we totally agree on that...the US is better than most countries in the world when it comes to these matters, and I don't have any problem admitting that. My point is that if we want to improve we should be heading toward "Netherlands values" and away from "Taliban values."

Seriously, compare it on a state-by-state basis if you want...the states most securely in the grip of the American Taliban are the ones with the most murders, rapes, divorces, and teen pregnancies.

As a prime example, the US state with the lowest divorce rate is the oft-maligned Massachusetts, sometimes called "America's Amsterdam" by the Bible Belters. So the state that was first to protect gay marriage also just happens to be the one with the lowest divorce rate...what sort of "slippery slope" might we construct from that?

*snip*

I don't have enough time at the moment to address this, however, I have to say... Much better on your part, thank you.

You made a good post here it looks so much better than just saying, "Netherlands rock, America sucks"...

I'll be back later but at least you are making substantially better arguments now ;)

Slippery slope is not a valid argument. Since there is no reason to think that one step in the slope should affect the next. Each step should be judged separately according to its own merits/flaws.

Actually it is valid because people when moving to the next step will use the arguement often "Its only a small change just like the change from X then to Y now"