NationStates Jolt Archive

The slain Abu Azzam may not have been Zarqawi’s top deputy after all.
Will his death have any effect on the Iraq insurgency?

Sept. 28, 2005 - U.S. intelligence officials and counterterrorism analysts are questioning whether a slain terrorist—described by President Bush today as the “second-most-wanted Al Qaeda leader in Iraq”—was as significant a figure as the Bush administration is claiming.

In a brief Rose Garden appearance Wednesday morning, Bush seized on the killing of Abu Azzam by joint U.S-Iraqi forces in a shootout last Sunday as fresh evidence that the United States is turning the tide against the Iraqi insurgency.

“This guy was a brutal killer,” Bush told reporters in remarks that were also carried live on cable TV. “He was one of [Abu Mussab al-]Zarqawi’s top lieutenants. He was reported to be the top operational commander of Al Qaeda in Baghdad.”

Bush’s comments came one day after Gen. Richard Myers, the outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters at the Pentagon that the U.S. military considered Abu Azzam the “No. 2 Al Qaeda operative in Iraq, next to Zarqawi.”

But veteran counterterrorism analyst Evan Kohlmann said today there are ample reasons to question whether Abu Azzam was really the No. 2 figure in the Iraqi insurgency. He noted that U.S. officials have made similar claims about a string of purportedly high-ranking terrorist operatives who had been captured or killed in the past, even though these alleged successes made no discernible dent in the intensity of the insurgency.

“If I had a nickel for every No. 2 and No. 3 they’ve arrested or killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, I’d be a millionaire,” says Kohlmann, a New York-based analyst who tracks the Iraq insurgency ... (*snip)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9518556/site/newsweek/

Every time I see a story like this, I think of Austin Powers.

"Who does Number Two work for!?" :D

“If I had a nickel for every No. 2 and No. 3 they’ve arrested or killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, I’d be a millionaire,” says Kohlmann, a New York-based analyst who tracks the Iraq insurgency ... (*snip)


I have to agree, there have been a number of alleged 'high-ranking' insurgent figures captured/killed in the past, so high ranking in fact, that nobody has even heard of them, and each time it is said this is a crippling blow to the insurgency. Look at Saddam's capture, the same was said there of how this would end the insurgency etc etc.

The group to which the man is said to have belonged to, 'Al-Qaeda in Iraq' which is headed (or is it) by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi says that the killed man is not the number two in Iraq.

Of course, it is easy to say "Well they would say that would'nt they" but if he had been second in charge and killed, he would be hailed as 'the martyr who died for his cause' and etc.

To me it shows desperation for results on The Bush Administration's behalf against the insurgency.

Some people are such a dumb fucks that it makes me want to puke.

How many attacks, daily, are occurring in IRaq? Dozens? HUndreds? Do you seriously believe that Al Zarqawi, a very hunted man, with rewards on him, is able to organize them all??? If he tries to put is head out, he will be snatched.

You fucking nitwits. Al Zarqawi is a myth. The Pentagon needed to put a figure head in what is a totally decentralized organization, so they put Al zarqawi in the spotlight (and alqaeda like it, by doing so, The pentagon created a friendly myth and hero for all jihadis), but in truth, killing the fuck, or is second in command is totally useless, because there isnt ONE al zarqawi in Iraq, there are hundreds of him.

Mmm, I'd say there's a banhammer close to Portu Cale if he keeps this up. "fucking nitwits" does really sound like flaming doesn't it?

Either way, the question here is the credibility of the administration who keeps saying "we got number 2 or 3" and "a devastating blow against the insurgency" when reality doesn't seem to be any different.

Ergo, there is no "number 2". Just a bullet riddled schmuck with the title "number 2" slapped on him in an attempt to raise morale.

Either way, the question here is the credibility of the administration who keeps saying "we got number 2 or 3" and "a devastating blow against the insurgency" when reality doesn't seem to be any different.

Ergo, there is no "number 2". Just a bullet riddled schmuck with the title "number 2" slapped on him in an attempt to raise morale.
I read a comment on a thread over at the Daily Kos this morning that summed it up nicely, I think--"We've turned so many corners that we're spinning in circles, right down the bowl." Same thing with this--we keep killing number 2s and 3s and yet the insurgency never seems to lose any steam.

It's an insurgency - not just an Iraqi one, but a world wide one composed of Islamic militants.

The only way to get rid of an insurgency is to:

1. Isolate them from the population they live within.
2. Kill them when you find them.

It takes a long time. Look at the world history of insurgencies, and tell me how long most of them went on.

This is not just a war in Iraq - it is a world war in the same sense as the Cold War. A war of ideas, not men. Whether militant Islam will take over the world.

You think the Cold War went on a long time, with various protracted struggles (Angola, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc)? Just sit back and watch.

The names and titles of the dead are meaningless. It's just one more dead militant on the stack.

They're all #2s. Keep killing them.
Dont forget to take all their stuff. Dont forget to investigate everyone they deal with and take their stuff too. Everyone they call, everyone they email.
Make it so absolutely unbearable for the ones that survive to continue on that path.

They're all #2s. Keep killing them.
Dont forget to take all their stuff. Dont forget to investigate everyone they deal with and take their stuff too. Everyone they call, everyone they email.
Make it so absolutely unbearable for the ones that survive to continue on that path.

I'm sure OceanDrive2 remembers Black September. That's when the Palestinians got the crazy idea that they could overthrow the Jordanian government and get their own nation state.

It didn't work.

King Hussein rounded up the relatives of those he suspected of being in the plot. By the thousands.

The relatives were tortured in order to give up names and locations. Which they did. The perpetrators were captured as a result. They were tortured to give up more names. Which they did.

After tens of thousands of people were tortured TO DEATH, the remaining Palestinians got the hint - don't screw with the King of Jordan.

Kill the insurgents and terrorists. Kill their friends. Kill their relatives. Kill the people who owe them money. Burn their houses to the ground.

It's the only thing they understand, and the only thing they will respect.

I'm sure OceanDrive2 remembers Black September. That's when the Palestinians got the crazy idea that they could overthrow the Jordanian government and get their own nation state.

It didn't work.

King Hussein rounded up the relatives of those he suspected of being in the plot. By the thousands.

The relatives were tortured in order to give up names and locations. Which they did. The perpetrators were captured as a result. They were tortured to give up more names. Which they did.

After tens of thousands of people were tortured TO DEATH, the remaining Palestinians got the hint - don't screw with the King of Jordan.

Kill the insurgents and terrorists. Kill their friends. Kill their relatives. Kill the people who owe them money. Burn their houses to the ground.

It's the only thing they understand, and the only thing they will respect.

Its already been established that the western world is vulnerable to attacks. The US, Britain, Spain and Russia-amongst others, have all learned the hard way.
We cant play by the rules we used to. Our size and wealth and oceans dont protect us anymore. People can get here easily. And they cant get their nasty stuff in here easily-if it isnt already here.
We have to resolve to play dirty-we have before. Our nations are at risk. A slow moving hurricane can upset our economy immediately-effecting every aspect of our lives. A well placed dirty bomb amidst the refineries or chemical plants in New Orleans may have had the same devistating effect.
We have to be on the offensive and smash our enemies wherever they are-before they get here. Keep them on the defensive, never relent and never give any quarter. I have a feeling there may already be a bit of that going on.
These terrorists arent all that smart. its more that we are slow, lazy and complacent. It takes a tragedy to motivate and unite us. Shortly thereafter, people go back to their old, complacent ways. Our enemies wont settle for anything less than destrcution of our way of life-they live to humiliate and see us suffer. most of us dont want to believe taht and go about our day to day business, waiting for what Tom Brokaw will want us to think tonight.
We need dilligence and fortitude. And never stop our offensive anywhere-we have better funding, technology and resources than anyone else anywhere right now. If we want to keep it-we have to commit it. And keep our bigger stick smashing their asses so they dont come back to our soil.

I'm sure OceanDrive2 remembers Black September. That's when the Palestinians got the crazy idea that they could overthrow the Jordanian government and get their own nation state.

It didn't work.

King Hussein rounded up the relatives of those he suspected of being in the plot. By the thousands.

The relatives were tortured in order to give up names and locations. Which they did. The perpetrators were captured as a result. They were tortured to give up more names. Which they did.

After tens of thousands of people were tortured TO DEATH, the remaining Palestinians got the hint - don't screw with the King of Jordan.

Kill the insurgents and terrorists. Kill their friends. Kill their relatives. Kill the people who owe them money. Burn their houses to the ground.

It's the only thing they understand, and the only thing they will respect.
here is what usually happen next.
________________________________________________
OD2)-- Asks Sierra for a credible Link.
Sierra)-- "I heard at the radio/telephone"...or presents some ridicule Biased Source.
OD2) .. --"your source is biased, Pro-Israel"
Sierra) -- "my facts are well known"...and that "doubting his facts makes you an Anti-Semite" :D
________________________________________________

so I ma going to cut the Crap...and present a neutral Link myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Events_of_September.2C_1970

here is what usually happen next.
________________________________________________
OD2)-- Asks Sierra for a credible Link.
Sierra)-- "I heard at the radio/telephone"...or presents some ridicule Biased Source.
OD2) .. --"your source is biased, Pro-Israel"
Sierra) -- "my facts are well known"...and that "doubting his facts makes you an Anti-Semite" :D
________________________________________________

so I ma going to cut the Crap...and present a neutral Link myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Events_of_September.2C_1970

Wikipedia is notably incomplete. And you are hardly a military scholar.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/bravo/blacksept1970.htm

In response to rumors that the PLO was planning to form a government-in-exile, Hussein in early June directed Tal to "deal conclusively and without hesitation with the plotters who want to establish a separate Palestinian state and destroy the unity of the Jordanian and Palestinian people." On July 13, the Jordanian army undertook an offensive against fedayeen bases about fifty kilometers northwest of Amman in the Ajlun area--the fedayeen's last stronghold. Tal announced that the Cairo and Amman agreements, which had regulated relations between the fedayeen and the Jordanian governments, were no longer operative. On July 19, the government announced that the remainder of the bases in northern Jordan had been destroyed and that 2,300 of the 2,500 fedayeen had been arrested. A few days later, many of the captured Palestinians were released either to leave for other Arab countries or to return to a peaceful life in Jordan. Hussein became virtually isolated from the rest of the Arab world, which accused him of harsh treatment of the fedayeen and denounced him as being responsible for the deaths of so many of his fellow Arabs.

In November members of the Black September terrorist group--who took their name from the civil war of September 1970--avenged the deaths of fellow fedayeen by assassinating Prime Minister Tal in Cairo. In December the group again struck out against Hussein in an unsuccessful attempt on the life of the Jordanian ambassador to Britain. Hussein alleged that Libya's Colonel Muammar al Qadhafi was involved in a plot to overthrow the monarchy.

Even better
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_expel_plo.php

No, Ocean, I call you an anti-Semite and a racist because you use terms like "Jew Lover" that I capture in your quotes, and that you subsequently edit out, saying that it was "irrelevant" - when in fact you then say you "stand behind what you originally posted".

Calling someone a "Jew lover" is spewing racist hatred. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

If Bush can't even keep us safe from a friggin' HURRICANE that we had several days advance notice on...and if NOLA is any example of the kind of response the Federal Government has in response to a natural disaster that we had days advance warning on...what in the HELL makes any of you Bush butt-kissers believe he can keep us safe from terrorists, who generally do not give days of advance notice, and who will probably do far more damage...and more malicious and targeted damage...than any hurricane ever could?

What about a nice dirty bomb along the NOLA levees? The refineries?? You think the terrorists are not paying attention to what has been happening here the past few weeks? They see our emergency response as ineffectual, we're flopping around like a great lobotomized beast. And don't think they don't know it!

Now, how much safer do you Bush-supporters feel?

Wikipedia is notably incomplete. And you are hardly a military scholar.That Wikipedia report is pretty detailed...

I will take Wikipedia over your handpicked sources...any given Sunday.

If Bush can't even keep us safe from a friggin' HURRICANE that we had several days advance notice on...and if NOLA is any example of the kind of response the Federal Government has in response to a natural disaster that we had days advance warning on...what in the HELL makes any of you Bush butt-kissers believe he can keep us safe from terrorists, who generally do not give days of advance notice, and who will probably do far more damage...and more malicious and targeted damage...than any hurricane ever could?

What about a nice dirty bomb along the NOLA levees? The refineries?? You think the terrorists are not paying attention to what has been happening here the past few weeks? They see our emergency response as ineffectual, we're flopping around like a great lobotomized beast. And don't think they don't know it!

Now, how much safer do you Bush-supporters feel?


If you are under the vague impression that ANY government, short of a Hitler-esque police state, could restrict terrorism (let's say you're thinking the Democrats could do a better job...) then you are obviously deluded.

Wonder why we're fighting an apparently pointless war overseas? Because it attracts them to the fight. Think of Iraq as a human version of the Roach Motel.

Think European countries have a handle on disaster? France lost 35,000 people - mostly poor people and elderly - in a simple heatwave.

Get off your high horse.

Read BOTH of your links Sierra, and while both detail MILITARY reponses against palestinian strongholds, frankly neither detail the routine torturing to death of friends and familly that you asserted were needed to find these well-known strongholds. both of which are far more in line with Wiki than your interesting tale of murder and mayhem.



So, what do you have to actually support your initial post?

If Bush can't even keep us safe from a friggin' HURRICANE that we had several days advance notice on...and if NOLA is any example of the kind of response the Federal Government has in response to a natural disaster that we had days advance warning on...what in the HELL makes any of you Bush butt-kissers believe he can keep us safe from terrorists, who generally do not give days of advance notice, and who will probably do far more damage...and more malicious and targeted damage...than any hurricane ever could?

What about a nice dirty bomb along the NOLA levees? The refineries?? You think the terrorists are not paying attention to what has been happening here the past few weeks? They see our emergency response as ineffectual, we're flopping around like a great lobotomized beast. And don't think they don't know it!

Now, how much safer do you Bush-supporters feel?even if Brownie is extremely incapable...I think Bush is even more of a handicap...

That is saying a lot.

If you are under the vague impression that ANY government, short of a Hitler-esque police state, could restrict terrorism (let's say you're thinking the Democrats could do a better job...) then you are obviously deluded.


My word, but you flip-flop more than John Kerry at a pancake breakfast!

You just finished detailing a plan of action on how to restrict terrorism, claim that it is a proven formula for success, and now you call other people "deluded" for thinking that controlling terrorism is possible.

Exactly what colour is the grass in YOUR world?



And what? You just want to engage in torture and murder for fun?




I think I've figured it out.

you're just a troll right?

c'mon, admit it. Because nothing else makes much sense about your posts.

Read BOTH of your links Sierra, and while both detail MILITARY reponses against palestinian strongholds, frankly neither detail the routine torturing to death of friends and familly that you asserted were needed to find these well-known strongholds. both of which are far more in line with Wiki than your interesting tale of murder and mayhem.

So, what do you have to actually support your initial post?

Ocean thinks that no Arab has ever lifted a hand against another.

Jordan has perfected the art of torture and uses it routinely against dissidents, suspected terrorists and perceived opponents of the monarchy. I'm talking about real torture here, not the kind of rough interrogation occasionally employed by the US and Israel. Jordan even threatens to torture and tortures the entirely innocent relatives of suspected terrorists, as it did with Abu Nidal's mother.

The United States is fully aware of Jordan's proficiency in torture, having "subcontracted" some of its own difficult cases to Jordanian "experts" (along with Egyptian and Philippine torture experts). Yet the UN has never condemned Jordan for its use of torture.

Jordan killed more Palestinians in one month - September 1970, known as Black September - than Israel has killed during the three years of suicide bombings that began in the fall of 2000.

We still subcontract torture to Jordan - even now. They're very good at it.

If you are under the vague impression that ANY government, short of a Hitler-esque police state....Sierra,a Hitler-esque (Nazi) Gov would probably engage in the massive murder torture of relatives and children of the suspected terrorists...that you are advocating.

http://www.afsi.org/MEDIA/primerLinks/firstState.htm

But, Arafat and his terrorists ended up in the Kingdom of Jordan after a series of unsuccessful war by the Arab/Muslim nations against Israel. There they arrogantly walked the streets of Amman well-armed and with supreme confidence. They intimidated the people of Jordan. Between 1967 and 1971 the PLO challenged King Hussein for political control of Jordan. Hussein made 26 agreements to keep the Peace. Arafat signed them all and broke them all. The last straw would be when Arafat put out a kill order for King Hussein’s brother who commanded the Jordanian Army and, particularly, the special Bedouin troops who had clashed numerous times with Arafat’s thugs. This was not going to be Arafat’s State by ‘coup d’stat’ but it was a lesson in his MO (‘Modus Operandi’).

Hussein’s Army was called up and a memorable slaughter of Arafat’s followers took place, an event which the Arab Palestinians called "Black September". (2) The major conflict began in September 1970 but took 17 months until Arafat’s Terrorists fled, mostly into Lebanon. However, many crossed the Jordan and were rescued by Israeli settling pioneers on the west side of the Jordan River.

Ocean thinks that no Arab has ever lifted a hand against another.use your QUOTE button to Prove that I ever said something like that ...or even vaguely resembles that.

use your QUOTE button to Prove that I ever said something like that ...or even vaguely resembles that.

That's hard to do, Ocean, when you keep editing everything else out of your posts, such as your "Jew Lover" comment that on one hand, you post, then you delete, then you "stand by my statement"

My word, but you flip-flop more than John Kerry at a pancake breakfast!

You just finished detailing a plan of action on how to restrict terrorism, claim that it is a proven formula for success, and now you call other people "deluded" for thinking that controlling terrorism is possible.

Exactly what colour is the grass in YOUR world?



And what? You just want to engage in torture and murder for fun?




I think I've figured it out.

you're just a troll right?

c'mon, admit it. Because nothing else makes much sense about your posts.


And, that...my friends, is an excellent example of how one plays the game of "Rope-A-Dope." congrats, sierra, you went for it hook, line and sinker, just like I knew you would! I can smell a Bush butt-kisser a mile away.

use your QUOTE button to Prove that I ever said something like that ...or even vaguely resembles that.

Don't invite that, Ocean!! Do you know how easy it is to put words in someone's mouth with the Quote function. No, have him point directly to your original post where you said that.

Here, let me show you...

I am doing this just to demonstrate how easy it is to put words into someone else's mouth, using the quote function.

See how easy it is? You never said that, Ocean...but I sure just made it LOOK like you did!

And, that...my friends, is an excellent example of how one plays the game of "Rope-A-Dope." congrats, sierra, you went for it hook, line and sinker, just like I knew you would! I can smell a Bush butt-kisser a mile away.

And how am I a Bush butt-kisser?

If Bush can't even keep us safe from a friggin' HURRICANE that we had several days advance notice on...and if NOLA is any example of the kind of response the Federal Government has in response to a natural disaster that we had days advance warning on...what in the HELL makes any of you Bush butt-kissers believe he can keep us safe from terrorists, who generally do not give days of advance notice, and who will probably do far more damage...and more malicious and targeted damage...than any hurricane ever could?

You're drawing a false conclusion here. It is not Bush's job to protect us from hurricanes or even terrorists. He's not superman.

His job is appointing people who are qualified to do their jobs and protect us from hurricanes or even terrorists. If you want to blame the Federal government, blame FEMA and Brown. If you want to blame the State government, blame Blanco and Nagin. All of them are culpable for the New Orleans disaster. If you want to blame Bush for something, and you should, blame him for putting unqualified people into positions they can't handle because of cronyism. It's a small, but important, difference.

I'm sure OceanDrive2 remembers Black September. That's when the Palestinians got the crazy idea that they could overthrow the Jordanian government and get their own nation state.

It didn't work.

King Hussein rounded up the relatives of those he suspected of being in the plot. By the thousands.

The relatives were tortured in order to give up names and locations. Which they did. The perpetrators were captured as a result. They were tortured to give up more names. Which they did.

After tens of thousands of people were tortured TO DEATH, the remaining Palestinians got the hint - don't screw with the King of Jordan.

Kill the insurgents and terrorists. Kill their friends. Kill their relatives. Kill the people who owe them money. Burn their houses to the ground.

It's the only thing they understand, and the only thing they will respect.
Yep, if you want to beat them you have to make examples out of the insurgents so anyone thinking of joining them will lose his will to fight. Unfortunately, the west is too squeamish to do this effectively. Also, if we resort to torture like the Jordanians did, we have gone against our own principles and values.

That's hard to do, Ocean, when you keep editing everything else out of your posts, such as your "Jew Lover" comment that on one hand, you post, then you delete, then you "stand by my statement"I still stand by my statement

And how am I a Bush butt-kisser?

You supported a war in Iraq that has cost the lives of many of your countrymen, with absolutely no gain in a war against terror, that, should you rule out genocide, can only be won by diplomacy, tact, and patience. You supported actions that caused harm to your country, destroying all the political capital the USA had as victor of the cold war, that currently endanger your economy in the form of massive trade and budget deficits.

Should you have done this with conscience you would be a traitor, but since i believe that you did so innocently, i would just call you naive.

Yep, if you want to beat them you have to make examples out of the insurgents so anyone thinking of joining them will lose his will to fight. Unfortunately, the west is too squeamish to do this effectively. Also, if we resort to torture like the Jordanians did, we have gone against our own principles and values.

Well, then we've lost already.

And how am I a Bush butt-kisser?your breath smell that way... :D :D :eek: :D

Disclaimer: I cannot really tell how any of you smells like
...so you dont have to rush to the showers :-)

You supported a war in Iraq that has cost the lives of many of your countrymen, with absolutely no gain in a war against terror, that, should you rule out genocide, can only be won by diplomacy, tact, and patience. You supported actions that caused harm to your country, destroying all the political capital the USA had as victor of the cold war, that currently endanger your economy in the form of massive trade and budget deficits.

Should you have done this with conscience you would be a traitor, but since i believe that you did so innocently, i would just call you naive.

That doesn't make me a Bush butt-kisser.

Bush didn't go far enough, as far as I'm concerned. And you know that I believe that.

Ocean thinks that no Arab has ever lifted a hand against another.


YEs, I'm sure that Ocean is TOTALLY unaware of the Taliban, the Iraqi invsion of Kuwait, the Iran-Iraq war, the infighting between Palestinian factions, the infighting between sunni's. Shiia, and Kurds in IRaq, ....

yep, all that stuff has been SO OFF THE RADAR around here!!

:rolleyes:

Not like those perfect peace-loving Isrealites who only do little things like ....kill their leaders who suggest peace with their neighbours.

My word, but you flip-flop more than John Kerry at a pancake breakfast!

You just finished detailing a plan of action on how to restrict terrorism, claim that it is a proven formula for success, and now you call other people "deluded" for thinking that controlling terrorism is possible.

Exactly what colour is the grass in YOUR world?

And what? You just want to engage in torture and murder for fun?

I think I've figured it out.

you're just a troll right?

c'mon, admit it. Because nothing else makes much sense about your posts.

Nope. I practice argument by reductio ad absurdum, which seems to be lost on people with low IQs.

I feel that logically, the only way to eliminate terrorists is to put the whole world in a super police state, and kill those who support or attempt terrorism.

But, we don't live in a world like that. So we have already lost.

And I'm not a troll.

Case in point:

I teach women who are victims of domestic violence to arm themselves and to shoot. I've trained over 200 women to do so. Usually, when a woman leaves her abuser, he stalks her and attacks her repeatedly. It is an ongoing campaign of terror.

Unlike unarmed women who rely on police, protective orders, and the courts, the women in my group are armed, have a protective order (as a justification for the use of force), and the abuser is notified of such.

None of my women have been abused since receiving training. There is no domestic violence program in my area (and I doubt in any other area) that has this success rate.

And no one got killed.

Obviously, violence, and the threat of violence, from good innocent people has solid value. But you'll never believe that, no matter what anyone says or does.

In order to defeat bad people (and there are bad people - there is a moral judgment to be made), you have to show them you are more willing to use lethal force than they are. And it works. I've proven that it works.

Well, then we've lost already.
I think there's another way to stop them without using torture. First of all, terrorists need a certain level of outside support. People to help them hide, donate money, government officials to look the other way or transfer weapons to them, communities to recruit from. If you impose economic penalties against the governments who aid terrorism, and economic benefits to the countries who fight terrorism, if you spread western values and civilization and education, you can reduce or eliminate the people who support the terrorists.

Also we need to use people in the middle east and other parts of the Muslim world who know the culture but hate the terrorists. Why isn't the CIA offering to move the families of oppressed Hindus in Pakistan, Coptic Christians in Egypt, etc. to the USA, setting them up with jobs and university scholarships in return for a few of their young adult sons training to infiltrate extremist Muslim organisations to feed us information and perhaps to kill off a few terrorists in the places where they feel safe.

I'm no military or intelligence expert, but I think that could do the job without resorting to torture.

Oceandrive,

Black September is indeed a tragic event.

PLO militant factions did try to take over Jordan and the king lashed out to protect himself and the kings armies (plus loaned army company from Pakistan commanded by future dictator Zia-ul-Huq) did not differentiate between militants and the refugee civilians.

Many thousand refugees were indeed killed in the most brutal manner.

Following this event, the PLO relocated to Lebanon.

==================

But I agree with your OP.

Read these two article fully.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FI01Df03.html
The al-Qaeda striptease
By B Raman

Act 1: March 2002. Abu Zubaidah, a Palestinian member of al-Qaeda, was arrested in Faislabad in Pakistani Punjab by the Pakistani authorities and handed over to the US's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). He was the operational chief of al-Qaeda; his arrest was a major breakthrough, we were told. This is hardly supported by the report of the 9-11 Commission.

Act 2: September 2002. Ramzi Binalshibh was arrested in Karachi and handed over to the FBI. He was the man, we were told. Not Abu Zubaidah. A real breakthrough, it was claimed. He figures frequently in the commission's report, but one does not get the impression that he was as great a cat's whiskers as made out to be.

Act 3: March 2003. Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) was arrested in Rawalpindi and handed over to the FBI. What a breakthrough, it was said. The real mastermind of September 11. The evil genius of al-Qaeda. Of all the jihadi terrorists, he figures the most frequently in the report. Almost as frequently as Pakistan's President General Pervez Musharraf. The report does give the impression that KSM was the brain who conceived of the plans for September 11, and orchestrated their execution. He is a Pakistani from Balochistan, who grew up in Kuwait. The plans, which led to the destruction of the two towers of the World Trade Center in New York and to the attack on the Pentagon and which caused the deaths of 3,500 innocent men, women and children, were conceived not by the brain of Osama bin Laden or a Muslim of any other nationality.

They were conceived and executed by the mind of a Pakistani. If KSM was the mastermind and he was the real evil genius, how about those in Pakistan who sheltered and protected him in Karachi from 1998 until September 2002, when he ran away to Quetta when the FBI came to know of his presence in Karachi? How about those who sheltered him in Quetta? How about those in Pakistan's Jamaat-e-Islami (JEI) and army who sheltered him in Rawalpindi, right under the nose of Musharraf, when he fled there from Quetta, when the FBI established his presence in Quetta? Are they any the less evil? The commission, which goes into great detail on his activities from Karachi before September 11, is strangely silent on his activities there between September 11 and March, 2003. An American journalist of Indian sub-continental origin, who is a good personal friend of Marianne Pearl, the widow of Daniel Pearl, the US journalist kidnapped and beheaded in Karachi in February, 2002, mentioned in an article in the online journal Salon in October last year that the US intelligence had informed Marianne that it was KSM who had her husband killed. That means, KSM is a good friend of Omar Sheikh, who organized the trap for Daniel. That means, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), which was operating Omar Sheikh as a source, must have known of this friendship. That means, the ISI must have known of KSM's presence in Karachi even in 2002, if not before. Why did it not act against him?

The biggest deficiency in the 9-11 Commission's report is that it has restricted its enquiries to what happened before September 11. It has not gone into what happened after September 11 - the kidnapping and beheading of Pearl, the grenade attack in an Islamabad church in March 2002 which killed the wife and daughter of an American diplomat, the attack on French submarine engineers in Karachi thereafter and the car bomb explosion outside the US consulate in Karachi in June 2002. Without going into them, how can one assess what is the threat today and what will be the threat tomorrow?

The reason why the commission did not go into post-September 11 happenings is not difficult to understand. The US intelligence did not want it to. From the sanitized summaries of the interrogation reports shared with the commission, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the FBI excluded all references to post-September 11 developments. If they had shared them too, US public opinion would have been wiser about the continued collusion of the Pakistani intelligence, or at least sections of it, with Omar Sheikh, KSM and others after September 11 too. And if it had become wiser, it might have questioned the wisdom of the trust placed in Musharraf, widely known in Pakistan army circles as Tricky Mush, by the Bush administration. KSM also mentioned one Issa al-Brittani, whom he had sent to the US before September 11 at bin Laden's instance to case possible economic and Jewish targets in the US. The commission did not know anything about the identity of this al-Brittani. At least did the CIA and the FBI know about it?

Act 4: April, 2003. A man projected as a principal suspect in the case relating to the attack on the USS Cole, the US naval ship, at Aden in October, 2002, was arrested in Karachi. His name was initially given as Khalid bin Attash. It was subsequently changed to Walid bin Attash. It hardly matters whether you call him Khalid or Walid. You will be none the wiser. The choice is yours. A great catch, we were told. Musharraf got another pat in the back. From the commission's report, he does not appear to have been such a great catch. Another person was arrested along with bin Attash. A nephew of KSM, we were told. Handed over to the Americans. Disappeared from press headlines. Nobody knows whether he was identified and what happened to him.

Act 5: October 2003. Musharraf sent his troops into South Waziristan, much to the applause of the Americans. To smoke out bin Laden and other dregs of al-Qaeda. For the first time since Pakistan's creation in 1947, its army had ventured into this God forsaken area, we were told. Pakistan television reported the exploits of the army day after day, hour after hour. Al-Qaeda's camps destroyed. Dozens killed and arrested. So we were told. The only confirmed killing so far is that of Hassan Mahsun, an Uighur terrorist. What happened to those arrested? Innocent Pakistani tribals or Arabs? Al-Qaeda or something else? When you are watching a striptease show, you should not ask questions. Just watch.

Act 6: February-March, 2004. The Pakistan army ventured back into South Waziristan. A high-value target surrounded, we were told. Ayman al-Zawahiri, the Egyptian No 2 to bin Laden, Musharraf told the US officials and media, which lap up whatever he says just as they lapped up everything Ahmed Chalabi told them about Iraq. It turned out to be an Uzbek. Tohir Yuldeshev, leader of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There would have been some saving grace at least if he had been caught. No. He managed to just drive through a Pakistani army cordon and escape to fight another day. Doesn't matter, said Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, Pakistan's Information Minister. The army had caught or killed dozens of other al-Qaeda dregs, he claimed.

Act 7: June. Within a few days of an abortive attempt to kill the Corps Commander of Karachi, Faisal Saleh Hyat, Pakistan's Interior Minister, proudly announced the case had been solved and those responsible arrested. They belonged to an organization called Jundullah (Army of Allah), he said. A new organization, of which the ISI was not aware till then, we were told. Trained in South Waziristan by al-Qaeda, we were further told. South Waziristan had been swarming with Pakistani troops, helicopter gunships and 007s of the US since October, 2003. How come al-Qaeda managed to run training camps right under the nose of the Pakistan army and American 007s just as KSM had managed to live right under the nose of Musharraf in Rawalpindi? Don't ask inconvenient questions. Just watch the show. You have no idea what more is to come. Along with the Jundullah members, one more guy was arrested. A nephew of KSM, we were told. How many nephews does KSM have? As many as the bras that a striptease dancer has. A woman of Karachi filed a habeas corpus in a Karachi court that the man arrested was her husband and not a nephew of KSM. In Pakistan, such fine distinctions are irrelevant. What matters is what Musharraf says. If he says he is a nephew of KSM, so he is.

Act 8: July 25. After an encounter lasting over 12 hours during which no one was killed and not many bullet marks were left anywhere, the ISI announced the arrest of a group of al-Qaeda members at Gujrat in Pakistani Punjab. The leader was a Kenyan national, we were told.

Act 9: July 29. Sorry. He was actually a Tanzanian. That, too, a famous Tanzanian. None other than Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani wanted by the US for his involvement in the explosions outside the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998. When was his identity established and announced? Three hours before Senator John Kerry was to make his acceptance speech at the Democratic presidential convention. Investigation revealed that Ghailani had been living at Gujrat for some months. Many local police officers were suspended for not detecting his presence. It is learnt that in their explanations they admitted they were aware of his presence in Gujrat, but said that they had not acted against him because the ISI had brought and kept him there. Ghailani had escaped to Pakistan immediately after the explosions of 1998. How come the ISI was not aware of this all these years and became aware of it only just before the Democratic Party's convention?

Act 10: August. Tom Ridge, the US homeland secretary, announced with great fanfare that US intelligence had come to know of plans of al-Qaeda to blow up US and international economic targets in New York, New Jersey and Washington DC. It had cased those buildings. Heavily armed US security forces personnel took up positions around all these buildings. Barricades were put up. All staff and visitors were checked. Obliging TV channel crews beamed visuals of these all over the world. Many watched it. Including bin Laden, presuming he is still alive, and his boys. They now know the buildings which were not guarded. Someone in the US intelligence tipped off the press that the information was three years old. Sheepishly Ridge and his officers admitted that this was so. They said that this does not mean the danger is any the less. Al-Qaeda plans its operations years in advance. Nobody drew the attention of Ridge to the fact that KSM had reported about the casing of the economic targets by al-Brittani in his interrogation report. Why was the US public not informed of it at that time and why were no security precautions taken? Was it because no Republican Party presidential convention was due last year? Don't ask stupid questions. Watch the show.

Act 11: August. Faced with increasing skepticism, US officials leaked to the media that the information was from a so-called computer wizard of al-Qaeda, a Pakistani by the name of Mohammad Naeem Noor Khan, arrested in Lahore. The Pakistanis hit the ceiling. They accused the US of blowing a sensitive ongoing operation by revealing the identity of a collaborating detainee. They admitted such an arrest now that the US had blown his cover. It was he who led them to Ghailani, they claimed.

Act 12: August. The British got into the act. They arrested 12 persons - Dhiren Bharot alias Bilal, a Hindu convert to Islam, and 11 others, seven of them of Pakistani origin. Hey presto. Dhiren is none other than al-Brittani. Or, rather, al-Brittani was none other than Dhiren. A key al-Qaeda operative, said some. In fact, the leader of the local al-Qaeda cell, said others. The information came from the Pakistanis, admitted the British, but they had been keeping a watch on Dhiren even earlier. Dhiren and others were planning a terrorist strike against Heathrow airport, said the Pakistanis. No such information, said the British. Bin Laden and his al-Qaeda are very security conscious. How come they trusted Dhiren, a Hindu convert to Islam? Dhiren was known to KSM as al-Brittani and to Noor Khan as al-Hindi. Was he known to anyone else as al-Pakistani or al-Kenyan? His family had migrated to the United Kingdom from Kenya in 1973.

Act 13: August. The so-called nephew of KSM arrested in June back in the headlines. It was he who led the Pakistanis to Noor Khan and it was Noor Khan who led them to Ghailani, we were told.

Act 14: August. Like a magician taking rabbits out of his hat, as the Republican presidential convention and his visit to New York during which he is to meet Bush for another pat in the back approached, Musharraf started finding al-Qaeda dregs all over Pakistan - Arabs, Uzbeks, South Africans and Pakistanis. A plot for simultaneous attacks on Musharraf's palace and the US Embassy in Islamabad, general headquarters in Rawalpindi and other places discovered and foiled. Many more dregs arrested. Al-Qaeda penetrated. The days of its dregs numbered. Claims galore from the interior and information ministers. Pakistani backers of al-Qaeda identified and under watch. Do you know who is the principal backer, according to these ministers? Musharraf? No. Lieutenant-General Ehsanul-Haq, director general of the ISI? No. He is none other than Javed Ibrahim Paracha , a close associate of Nawaz Sharif and a member of Nawaz's faction of the Pakistan Muslim League. Yes sir. You now know how al-Qaeda had remained undetected all these years in Pakistan. Because of the support from Nawaz's Muslim League.

Should one laugh or cry? Don't do either. Keep watching the show. There are more striptease acts to come as the US presidential elections and the deadline for Musharraf to resign as the chief of the army staff (COAS) approaches. Bush and Tricky Mush need each other. And they both need bin Laden. Bush for winning re-election. Mush for getting US support for his planned violation of the Pakistani constitution in order to be able to continue as the COAS after December 31.

There is another striptease going on in Iraq.

Another show, another day.

B Raman is Additional Secretary (retired), Cabinet Secretariat, Government of India, New Delhi, and, presently, director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Distinguished Fellow and Convenor, Observer Research Foundation (ORF), Chennai Chapter. Email: corde@vsnl.com

and

http://www.observerindia.com/analysis/A431.htm

The al Qaeda Striptease Continues
B. Raman

How big a catch is Abu Faraj al-Libbi, a 40-year-old Libyan married to a Pakistani, fluent in Urdu and Arabic and suffering from lucoderma, whose arrest was announced by the Pakistani authorities at Islamabad on May 4,2005?

They have not announced how and where he was captured, but reports from non-governmental sources indicate that a Pakistani security patrol near Mardan, 30 miles north of Peshawar, had stopped for identity check a man on a two-wheeler with a person in burqa sitting behind him. The person in burqa opened fire and they tried to escape. They were captured after a chase. The person in burqa turned out to be Abu Faraj. In the wake of his arrest, the Pakistani authorities in the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and in the Federally-Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) have reportedly arrested seven Pakistanis, three Uzbeks, one Afghan and one Chechen.

In the past, Abu Faraj had been described as an operative of Al Qaeda in North Africa, who had shifted to Afghanistan from the Sudan along with Osama bin Laden in 1996 and had been assisting him in his work in Afghanistan. Some reports of the past had described him as his personal assistant and some others as one of his bodyguards.

He apparently did not occupy any high place in the Al Qaeda hierarchy as would be evident from the facts that he was not one of the top guns of Al Qaeda for whom the FBI had issued look-out notices after 9/11 and that his name did not figure prominently in the report of the US' National 9/11 Commission, which had at its disposal details of the interrogation of all the Al Qaeda operatives arrested in Pakistan, including that of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM), the alleged mastermind behind the 9/11 terrorist strikes in the US, who was arrested at Rawalpindi in March,2003.

Nor did his name figure prominently in the reports regarding the investigation into the kidnapping and murder of Daniel Pearl, the journalist of the "Wall Street Journal" and other terrorist attacks directed against French and American nationals in Karachi and Islamabad by suspected pro-Al Qaeda jihadi elements in 2002 and the attempt to kill the then Corps Commander of Karachi in June 2004.

His name figured for the first time in May,2004, as the suspected mastermind of the two unsuccessful attempts to assassinate Pakistan's President General Pervez Musharraf at Rawalpindi in December,2003.After the two attempts to kill Musharraf, the only other incident in the investigation of which his name figured was the attempt to kill Shaukat Aziz, the present Prime Minister and the then Finance Minister, in July last year. Initially, the Pakistani authorities had described him merely as an Al Qaeda operative, but by September,2004, they started describing him as the successor to KSM as the No.3 in the Al Qaeda.

Similarly, initially, they had projected him as the co-ordinator of the Al Qaeda operations in Pakistan, but by October last started describing him as also the co-ordinator of its operations in Europe and the US as well. Shortly after the July,2004, Lahore arrest of Mohammad Naeem Noor Khan , a Pakistani, who was said to be the computer expert of Al Qaeda , and the death of Amjad Farooqi, projected as another big fish of Al Qaeda, in an encounter with the security forces at Nawabshah in Sindh in September last, Abu Faraj found himself promoted by the Pakistani and US authorities and the non-governmental Al Qaeda watchers of the world as the No. 3 in Al Qaeda and a vigorous man hunt was launched for him in the South Waziristan area.

According to reliable police sources in Pakistan, the US intelligence had been convinced since September last year that Abu Faraj was operating from sanctuaries in the South Waziristan area and kept up pressure on Pakistan's military-intelligence establishment to smoke him out. The same police sources believed that he was operating along with Tohir Yuldashev, the leader of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, who once narrowly escaped capture by the Pakistan Army.

It is interesting to note that while all the important arrests and killings of Al Qaeda leaders till now were made in major towns of Pakistan like Lahore,Faislabad and Gujarat in Punjab, Karachi, Rawalpindi and Nawabshah in Sindh, the arrest of Abu Faraj is reported to have been nade in the tribal areas, thereby indicating that he felt himself safer in the tribal areas than elsewhere in Pakistan.

The Pakistani authorities have not so far taken their public into confidence regarding the details of the two plots to kill Musharraf in December 2003, in which four junior officers of the Army and six of the Air Force were allegedly involved. One of the army officers named Islamuddin has already been court-martialed and sentenced to death even before the investigation is complete, but the Pakistani authorities have denied media speculation that he has already been executed. Another army officer named Havaldar Younis has been sentenced to 10 years rigorous imprisonment. Much to the discomfiture of the authorities, one of the Air Force officers, who was being held in custody in an Air Force station, managed to escape in November last.

In December,2004, the Lahore Police arrested a band of four hoodlums who used to indulge in mugging. The chief investigating officer projected them as the trusted men of Abu Faraj and their arrests as yet another major break-through in the hunt for Abu Faraj , al-Zawahiri and bin Laden. According to the police, one of the hoodlums admitted that Abu Faraj had takem him in his car to the vicinity of a UN vehicle in February,2004, and asked him to throw a hand-grenade at it. Abu Faraj could have thrown the hand-grenade himself. Why should he take an eye-witness in his car and ask him to throw it? What kind of an Al Qaeda top general he is if he did not have the confidence to throw a hand-grenade himself? Other police officers debunked the claim of the investigating officer that the hoodlums belonged to Al Qaeda. The "News", the prestigious daily of Pakistan, reported on January 8,2005, as follows: "In the post-September 11 scenario, Pakistani intelligence agents admit, there are multiple problems in identifying the actual enemy of the State."

In the reports relating to the investigation leaking out of the police and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) from time to time, the names of various organisations had figured as the perpetrators of the two plots to kill Musharraf---the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JEM), the Harkat-ul-jihad-al-Islami (HUJI), the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LEJ),the Jundullah and finally Al Qaeda. In August last, Qari Saifullah Akhtar, the head of the HUJI, was arrested by the Dubai authorities and deported to Pakistan. One does not have the details of his interrogation.

One need not be surprised that President Bush seems happier than even Musharraf over the arrest of Abu Faraj, whom he has described as a top General of bin Laden and whose arrest he has hailed as a critical victory in the so-called war against terrorism. It should help temporarily in drawing attention away from the continuing rampage of the resistance fighters and terrorists in Iraq, who have already killed 12 Americans and about 200 Iraqis, mainly Shia and Kurdish recruits to the Police, since April 29, thereby negating the claims of the US that the resistance movement and the foreign terrorists headed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi were showing signs of internal dissension and loss of morale since the elections earlier this year.

In my three decades with the Indian intelligence, I have learnt one lesson. Never make a tall claim. Tall claims have a nasty way of coming back to haunt you.

Will the arrest of Abu Faraj turn out to be yet one more striptease act in the long show in Pakistan since the beginning of 2002 or will it be the prelude to the ultimate striptease, namely, the arrest or neutralisation of bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri? I wish I had the answer.

One does not know when the ultimate striptease will come about. So long as the show lasts, let us not leave the ringside seat. Interesting days and sights ahead.

You're drawing a false conclusion here. It is not Bush's job to protect us from hurricanes or even terrorists. He's not superman.

His job is appointing people who are qualified to do their jobs and protect us from hurricanes or even terrorists. If you want to blame the Federal government, blame FEMA and Brown. If you want to blame the State government, blame Blanco and Nagin. All of them are culpable for the New Orleans disaster. If you want to blame Bush for something, and you should, blame him for putting unqualified people into positions they can't handle because of cronyism. It's a small, but important, difference.

I do blame FEMA and Brown. But, unltimately, it is Bush to whom those people are answerable...and it is ultimately Bush...who placed incompetent people in those positions.

So, in the end, it is still Bush's fault. The buck stops there.

I do blame FEMA and Brown. But, unltimately, it is Bush to whom those people are answerable...and it is ultimately Bush...who placed incompetent people in those positions.

So, in the end, it is still Bush's fault. The buck stops there.

So, if I have gastric distress, that's Bush's fault.

And the Governor of Louisiana has no responsibility for her state - at all?

And the Mayor of New Orleans has no responsibility for his state - at all?

It's only Bush's fault?

I think not. I think it's the government's fault - at all levels.

It's the fault of every bureaucrat, every official at every level. A collective responsibility which they ALL failed.

And how am I a Bush butt-kisser?
Because you buy the propaganda and bullshit that got us into our modern-day Vietnam in Iraq!

First it was WMD's. Proved false, it suddenly became about "liberating the Iraqi people." But then, we weren't willing to allow them to have the kind of government THEY wanted...it had to be a government WE approved of, so how was that liberating? So now the latest bunch of bullshit is about how Iraq is some kind of "Roach Motel." It's just the latest line of B.S. from Bush, to justify a war tha he personally wanted. A war of choice, not of necessity. But you buy the propaganda.

And that is why I say you are a Bush butt-kisser. Because you spew out the propaganda. You seem to have no ability to realize how many times the story of the reason for the war has changed. every time one reason was proved bullshit, they grasped onto something else...when all the while, the only REAL reason for the Iraq war is, truthfully...Bush wanted it.

Because you buy the propaganda and bullshit that got us into our modern-day Vietnam in Iraq!

First it was WMD's. Proved false, it suddenly became about "liberating the Iraqi people." But then, we weren't willing to allow them to have the kind of government THEY wanted...it had to be a government WE approved of, so how was that liberating? So now the latest bunch of bullshit is about how Iraq is some kind of "Roach Motel." It's just the latest line of B.S. from Bush, to justify a war tha he personally wanted. A war of choice, not of necessity. But you buy the propaganda.

And that is why I say you are a Bush butt-kisser. Because you spew out the propaganda. You seem to have no ability to realize how many times the story of the reason for the war has changed. every time one reason was proved bullshit, they grasped onto something else...when all the while, the only REAL reason for the Iraq war is, truthfully...Bush wanted it.


I didn't buy the WMD. Where did you get that? And I didn't buy the liberating of the Iraqi people, because if people want to be liberated, they do it themselves (our own history is a good example).

The Roach Motel is something I came up with when the invasion started. I knew that was the reason. And it's not propaganda - because I never bought the original reason and I knew that it would work.

You'll notice a dearth of terrorist attacks in the United States right now - that's because they're all busy elsewhere.

So, if I have gastric distress, that's Bush's fault.

And the Governor of Louisiana has no responsibility for her state - at all?

And the Mayor of New Orleans has no responsibility for his state - at all?

It's only Bush's fault?

I think not. I think it's the government's fault - at all levels.

It's the fault of every bureaucrat, every official at every level. A collective responsibility which they ALL failed.

The Governor (Blanco) REQUESTED help from the Feds, as she is supposed to do. And she included ALL Parishes, INCLUDING NOLA.
Yet...what Bush ISSUED....left out NOLA and adjacents.
Baghdad Brown lied through his TEETH when he claimed that Blanco neglected to include NOLA and adjacents in her disaster relief requests.

See for yourself what Blanco ASKED for...don't take MY word for it...
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf


and this is what was ISSUED by Bush...
The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, (/snip) in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.

I didn't buy the WMD. Where did you get that? And I didn't buy the liberating of the Iraqi people, because if people want to be liberated, they do it themselves (our own history is a good example).

The Roach Motel is something I came up with when the invasion started. I knew that was the reason. And it's not propaganda - because I never bought the original reason and I knew that it would work.

You'll notice a dearth of terrorist attacks in the United States right now - that's because they're all busy elsewhere.

Maybe the wording "Roach Motel" is something you came up with on your own...but it sounds EXACTLY LIKE the propaganda about "fighting them over there instead of fighting them over here" and the propaganda about "drawing them in."

You're still basically spewing the latest propaganda...you just used your own terminology to describe the same thing.

And, contratry to your belief...I don't think the Muslims REALLY want to take over the world...they just want US to leave THEM the hell alone, and if we would, they would be just as happy to leave US alone.

But we can't do that...not when they have all that precious OIL under their feet! So we exploit them, keep them poor, make their lives hell...and then we are surprised that they hate us?!?!? WTF?? don't you hate the people who keep you down and oppressed?

The Governor (Blanco) REQUESTED help from the Feds, as she is supposed to do. And she included ALL Parishes, INCLUDING NOLA.
Yet...what Bush ISSUED....left out NOLA and adjacents.
Baghdad Brown lied through his TEETH when he claimed that Blanco neglected to include NOLA and adjacents in her disaster relief requests.

See for yourself what Blanco ASKED for...don't take MY word for it...
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster Relief Request.pdf


and this is what was ISSUED by Bush...
The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, (/snip) in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.


I posted earlier links to Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin's disaster plans.

Plans that did not count on federal assistance.

Virtually none of their plans were carried out.

I'm not saying Brown isn't an idiot - he's a government employee after all.

And the story of the 200+ cops that abandoned their posts in New Orleans? Now there is an FBI investigation revealing that most of them didnt even exist...ever. A large scale scam where there are phantoms on the payroll. But, living breathing bodies cashing paychecks. And officers commiting suicide? And the chief of police quitting?
I guess this will be President Bush's fault too. Certainly not the fair mayor Nagin.

Kill their friends. Kill their relatives. Kill the people who owe them money. Burn their houses to the ground.

Mind if I sig that?

I guess we should start with the bin Laden family, as they claim the ultimate in relative-of-a-terrorist status. Kill them and and all their children, kill all the friends of the family, kill kill kill muahahaaa!!! Ghengis Khan would be proud.

Mind if I sig that?

I guess we should start with the bin Laden family, as they claim the ultimate in relative-of-a-terrorist status. Kill them and and all their children, kill all the friends of the family, kill kill kill muahahaaa!!! Ghengis Khan would be proud.

You'll notice that the Mongols were able to effectively conquer Iraq. Far more effectively than the current modern army in place today.

Largely because they were ruthless.

If Bush can't even keep us safe from a friggin' HURRICANE that we had several days advance notice on...and if NOLA is any example of the kind of response the Federal Government has in response to a natural disaster that we had days advance warning on...what in the HELL makes any of you Bush butt-kissers believe he can keep us safe from terrorists, who generally do not give days of advance notice, and who will probably do far more damage...and more malicious and targeted damage...than any hurricane ever could?

Excuse me? If Bush and the federal government can somehow stop a hurricane then I have myself a new religion. Seriously your immaturity is getting worse by the day. And with Hurricane Katrina, we were dealing with one of the most corrupt states in the entire nation and with one of the most incompetent governors. Yes Bush could of done a better job, but guess who is the first line? The state government.

What about a nice dirty bomb along the NOLA levees? The refineries?? You think the terrorists are not paying attention to what has been happening here the past few weeks? They see our emergency response as ineffectual, we're flopping around like a great lobotomized beast. And don't think they don't know it!

You really need to grow up. Mayor Nagin is also reputed to be one of the most corrupt mayors in this country. I'm serious, what if we start investigating him? The federal response was adequate (there could be things done differently), but most of the fault goes on the shoulders of Nagin and Blanco.

I do blame FEMA and Brown. But, unltimately, it is Bush to whom those people are answerable...and it is ultimately Bush...who placed incompetent people in those positions.

So, in the end, it is still Bush's fault. The buck stops there.

No it isn't. GROW UP.

And Bush placed Governor Blanco and Mayor Ray Nagin in their positions? I didn't know the president appointed governors and mayors. :rolleyes:

You'll notice a dearth of terrorist attacks in the United States right now - that's because they're all busy elsewhere.
Al-Qaeda executes a major attack about every 5 years. Quick, what's 2005 - 2001?

Al-Qaeda executes a major attack about every 5 years. Quick, what's 2005 - 2001?

Quick, when was the USS Cole attacked?

Quick, how long was that before 9-11?

11 months...

How is 11 months equal to five years?

They attack whenever they can. Their pace of operations on our side of the world is radically slowed by the fact that so many are attracted to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Al-Qaeda executes a major attack about every 5 years. Quick, what's 2005 - 2001?

Err... slightly under four years?