NationStates Jolt Archive

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a3PgXIYxoawY&refer=news_index
Natural gas prices soared about 10% today alone. Now, when it comes to heating homes, heating oil gets far more attention for its volatile nature. Yet only 8% of US homes, mostly in the Northeast corridor, use it. Natural gas is used by far more people, and rivals coal as the most popular fuel for electricity generation. Time to move south. Oh, wait. They get all the wacky weather, and we just get the economic impact. Splendid!

Bah, we northerners are used to being shafted by the rest of the nation.

Bah, we northerners are used to being shafted by the rest of the nation.
True. We were always seen as a bunch of weirdos, from the first Puritans to the "average" New Yorker, and are written off. And everyone is leaving us for Florida, or California, or some other place without season change and a less lively atmosphere. But everyone forgets that we built this nation. <rant>

Bah, we northerners are used to being shafted by the rest of the nation.

From precisely which alternate universe are you posting? :confused:

Just had the bulk propane tank refilled today at $1.96/gallon! I'm concerned for people on a fixed income this winter. Fuel is going to be outrageous.

Thankfully, I rely on wood for my primary source of heat - the fuel that heats you six times. The propane hot-water boiler doesn't run very often.

Just had the bulk propane tank refilled today at $1.96/gallon! I'm concerned for people on a fixed income this winter. Fuel is going to be outrageous.

Thankfully, I rely on wood for my primary source of heat - the fuel that heats you six times. The propane hot-water boiler doesn't run very often.
I use a bit of firewood, too. Granted, it's not my primary heating source, but my family room is big and used often. It's a necessity to light the fireplace on brutal winter nights. Anyhow, firewood is gonna be expensive this winter, too, as are wood pellets. I suspect that it'll probably go up in price, too, because more people will start to use it.

Yeah, it's a hard life being a Northerner. We have to walk to school 6 miles every day throuugh the snow with noting but a flimsy shirt, and we go there with 40 pounds of textbooks, just to get a good education.

Yes, it's a lot of strife, but it's for the betterment of our nation.

Seriously, while we don't get "shafted" we do get cheated on anti-terrorism money.

True. We were always seen as a bunch of weirdos, from the first Puritans to the "average" New Yorker, and are written off. And everyone is leaving us for Florida, or California, or some other place without season change and a less lively atmosphere. But everyone forgets that we built this nation. <rant>

I'm not talking about the wannabie northerners from NY and the rest of the mid-atlantic states. I'm talking about Minnesota, Michigan, North Dakota, Maine, and Wisconson. Those are the states that are getting shafted.

Yeah, it's a hard life being a Northerner. We have to walk to school 6 miles every day throuugh the snow with noting but a flimsy shirt, and we go there with 40 pounds of textbooks, just to get a good education.

You're forgetting the weird geographic feature that makes us have to walk to the school up hill both ways. :)

I'm not talking about the wannabie northerners from NY and the rest of the mid-atlantic states. I'm talking about Minnesota, Michigan, North Dakota, Maine, and Wisconson. Those are the states that are getting shafted.
You mean those people with all that wheat and those cows? Trust me, the areas hardest hit are New England and the Mid-Atlantic.

Yeah, it's a hard life being a Northerner. We have to walk to school 6 miles every day throuugh the snow with noting but a flimsy shirt, and we go there with 40 pounds of textbooks, just to get a good education.

Yes, it's a lot of strife, but it's for the betterment of our nation.

Seriously, while we don't get "shafted" we do get cheated on anti-terrorism money.
I think we get cheated with terrorism, period. Terrorists are magnetically drawn to the Northeast. You never hear about a terrorist plot in Florida, the Plains, or California.

I'm not talking about the wannabie northerners from NY and the rest of the mid-atlantic states. I'm talking about Minnesota, Michigan, North Dakota, Maine, and Wisconson. Those are the states that are getting shafted.

The term Mid-Atlantic can be misleading. I figure I'm not a wannabee - I live in the Adirondack Mountains of NY, about a hundred miles south of Canada. Long hard winters. Now downstate NY may be wannabee country...

Actually, there are a lot of northeners living in harsh winter climate. Figure a belt within a few hours drive south of the canadian border, from the Cascades to the coast of Maine.

I'm a Southerner, so I can't really say much...but I feel for you guys. When I was younger, and my parents were truckers, I'd ride with them, and they'd always be sent North during winter, Gary, Indiana to be exact...I went to the U.S. Steel plant there, that was so close to the great lakes that it had to have a rock wall to keep the waves at bay. Horribly cold, but also beautiful.

I don't know how you folks can stand all that snow, but I respect you for it.

I use a bit of firewood, too. Granted, it's not my primary heating source, but my family room is big and used often. It's a necessity to light the fireplace on brutal winter nights. Anyhow, firewood is gonna be expensive this winter, too, as are wood pellets. I suspect that it'll probably go up in price, too, because more people will start to use it.

Firewood price is already way up anywhere near the cities.

Saw this happen during the energy crisis in the unfortunate Carter years. Wood prices skyrocketed, lots of start-up woodstove companies appeared, and timber theft became common. Lots of chainsaw injuries as the weekend warriors tried to keep the heating costs down.

I work in the forest industry, so I can tell you that the wood production costs are increasing substantially due to fuel and steel cost. You'll see it reflected in the price of lumber too.

I'd hate to be a New Englander at the moment. Crap, I am one...

Now, those living in Southern New York state, Connecticut, and Rhode Island won't be THAT bad off. Northern New York state and the rest of New England(save the Cape Cod area of Massachusetts) is pretty screwed.

I'm a Southerner, so I can't really say much...but I feel for you guys. When I was younger, and my parents were truckers, I'd ride with them, and they'd always be sent North during winter, Gary, Indiana to be exact...I went to the U.S. Steel plant there, that was so close to the great lakes that it had to have a rock wall to keep the waves at bay. Horribly cold, but also beautiful.

I don't know how you folks can stand all that snow, but I respect you for it.
I love the snow. I live, for instance, in Rochester, NY, which rivals our neighbors, Buffalo and Syracuse, as the snowiest metropolis in the US. 90 in. is the average every year. And I love it. Maybe it's because I was a January baby, but I love this weather. And the season is almost starting for us, in just a couple more months.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a3PgXIYxoawY&refer=news_index
Natural gas prices soared about 10% today alone. Now, when it comes to heating homes, heating oil gets far more attention for its volatile nature. Yet only 8% of US homes, mostly in the Northeast corridor, use it. Natural gas is used by far more people, and rivals coal as the most popular fuel for electricity generation. Time to move south. Oh, wait. They get all the wacky weather, and we just get the economic impact. Splendid!
Natural gas prices are much more affected by the increase in load than anything else. And you only get the environmental impact because laws passed under certain presidents have discouraged building of new refineries. Same thing goes for nuke plants.

Firewood price is already way up anywhere near the cities.

Saw this happen during the energy crisis in the unfortunate Carter years. Wood prices skyrocketed, lots of start-up woodstove companies appeared, and timber theft became common. Lots of chainsaw injuries as the weekend warriors tried to keep the heating costs down.

I work in the forest industry, so I can tell you that the wood production costs are increasing substantially due to fuel and steel cost. You'll see it reflected in the price of lumber too.
I see. It's easy to forget that wood is also a building material as well as a fuel source.
I think I'm more aware of this heating spike, however, because I have relatives that own a few apartment buildings. Heating costs have been skyrocketing since 2000, and at some point, it will start to hurt us. We have a clause in the leases that require tentants to cover any heating cost increases, but we can't do that forever without vacancies appearing.

Natural gas prices are much more affected by the increase in load than anything else. And you only get the environmental impact because laws passed under certain presidents have discouraged building of new refineries. Same thing goes for nuke plants.
You're probably right. But even so, these natural gas prices would skyrocket.

I'd hate to be a New Englander at the moment. Crap, I am one...

Now, those living in Southern New York state, Connecticut, and Rhode Island won't be THAT bad off. Northern New York state and the rest of New England(save the Cape Cod area of Massachusetts) is pretty screwed.
Aside from the very coast of CT, the rest of the state gets hit pretty hard. Boston has more wind (as most cities do...wind tunnel effect, plus being on the harbor) but temperature wise, its only about 1-2 degrees warmer.

and yes, this winter will blow. I am not looking forward to walking to classes, particularly in January. Last year was brutal, esp with the blizzard.

Aside from the very coast of CT, the rest of the state gets hit pretty hard. Boston has more wind (as most cities do...wind tunnel effect, plus being on the harbor) but temperature wise, its only about 1-2 degrees warmer.

and yes, this winter will blow. I am not looking forward to walking to classes, particularly in January. Last year was brutal, esp with the blizzard.

I went to college in Cambridge, Mass. my first year. I remember walking to class across the Mass. Ave. Bridge every day in the winter - so windy and raw from the nearby ocean.

I'd rather have 40 below and dry than that have that damp sea-coast cold. It chills you to the bone.

I see. It's easy to forget that wood is also a building material as well as a fuel source.
I think I'm more aware of this heating spike, however, because I have relatives that own a few apartment buildings. Heating costs have been skyrocketing since 2000, and at some point, it will start to hurt us. We have a clause in the leases that require tentants to cover any heating cost increases, but we can't do that forever without vacancies appearing.
Part of this spike is because in the midwest there has been a biiig push for Natural gas power plants within the last 7 years or so.

Part of this spike is because in the midwest there has been a biiig push for Natural gas power plants within the last 7 years or so.

here's some more explanation:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/propane_prices_brochure/propbro.html

Propane and natural gas compete with petroleum, so there's a direct economic linkage. Price is also linked to strong seasonal demand.

I went to college in Cambridge, Mass. my first year. I remember walking to class across the Mass. Ave. Bridge every day in the winter - so windy and raw from the nearby ocean.

I'd rather have 40 below and dry than that have that damp sea-coast cold. It chills you to the bone.
Ugh...I'm at BU, had a good 25 minute walk to one of my classes at 7:30 AM. There were a few days where I thought I would be one of those news stories..."College boy found frozen in snow drift". Luckily most of my classes are closer this year, and later in the day.

I'm thinking of just using regular sticks and stuff and doing fires in my fireplace with gathered firewood. I live in front of a small pack of woods, so its all good. In terms of school though I'm not too sure what I'm going to do as I usually find myself walking through woods (which isn't fun when there's snow) or through a wind tunnel. I'm not sure though cause I wear Converse (not that much insulation) cause they're the most comfortable for me, so the snow isn't fun...I guess I'll just get more pj pants so i can wear them under reg. pants...and wool socks own.

I'm thinking of just using regular sticks and stuff and doing fires in my fireplace with gathered firewood. I live in front of a small pack of woods, so its all good. In terms of school though I'm not too sure what I'm going to do as I usually find myself walking through woods (which isn't fun when there's snow) or through a wind tunnel. I'm not sure though cause I wear Converse (not that much insulation) cause they're the most comfortable for me, so the snow isn't fun...I guess I'll just get more pj pants so i can wear them under reg. pants...and wool socks own.

PJ's won't do much - try some long underwear. The synthetics are all good, and they come in different thicknesses. If you're exposed to wind, nylon windbreaker pants or jacket (worn over your street clothes) will definitely keep you warmer - and they're light, so you can roll them up and put them in a pack when you don't need them. Even the cheapest kinds shed rain and snow to a degree.

Wear layers of light clothing, remove them as necessary. They aren't bulky, and you can easily avoid overheating by removing before you get too warm. You can buy these things online (Cabela's is great) or at an outdoors store. Not expensive either, and will last for years.

Just a suggestion. I work in the woods in weather fair and foul, and with the right selection of materials in the layers I can stay comfortable at -40.

I'd hate to be a New Englander at the moment. Crap, I am one...

Now, those living in Southern New York state, Connecticut, and Rhode Island won't be THAT bad off. Northern New York state and the rest of New England(save the Cape Cod area of Massachusetts) is pretty screwed.

What about us that live in southwest Pennsylvania. Our gas prices are nearing the three dollar mark, again. I live in Pittsburgh.

Few things more entertaining than listening to Americans complain about fuel prices, when they continue to have some of the lowest prices in the world, despite the recent price increases.

Try living in northern Canada, where fuel costs over $1.00 per litre (about 4 litres to a gallon, for those that don't know), and where winter in Minnesota feels like a balmy spring day. Places like Norway would be worse.

Fortunately, most Canadians live real close to the US border, so for most of us our winters aren't worse than those experienced by those in the northern US.

Edit: Just for comparison, where I live, gas is $1.14/litre Canadian. Converted to gallons and US dollars, that equals $3.89 per gallon.

Few things more entertaining than listening to Americans complain about fuel prices, when they continue to have some of the lowest prices in the world, despite the recent price increases.

Try living in northern Canada, where fuel costs over $1.00 per litre (about 4 litres to a gallon, for those that don't know), and where winter in Minnesota feels like a balmy spring day. Places like Norway would be worse.

Fortunately, most Canadians live real close to the US border, so for most of us our winters aren't worse than those experienced by those in the northern US.

Edit: Just for comparison, where I live, gas is $1.14/litre Canadian. Converted to gallons and US dollars, that equals $3.89 per gallon.
Energy is not supposed to be expensive. It is unfortunate that energy prices are now spiking.

Few things more entertaining than listening to Americans complain about fuel prices, when they continue to have some of the lowest prices in the world, despite the recent price increases.

Try living in northern Canada, where fuel costs over $1.00 per litre (about 4 litres to a gallon, for those that don't know), and where winter in Minnesota feels like a balmy spring day. Places like Norway would be worse.

Fortunately, most Canadians live real close to the US border, so for most of us our winters aren't worse than those experienced by those in the northern US.

Edit: Just for comparison, where I live, gas is $1.14/litre Canadian. Converted to gallons and US dollars, that equals $3.89 per gallon.

A) who said this is only about the northern US? northern anywhere wont be great.
b) This isn't about who pays more for fuel. Families shouldn't have to choose between feeding their family or heating their home. People here are doing that, and I'm sure people in northern Canada are doing the same.

A) who said this is only about the northern US? northern anywhere wont be great.
b) This isn't about who pays more for fuel. Families shouldn't have to choose between feeding their family or heating their home. People here are doing that, and I'm sure people in northern Canada are doing the same.

Fair enough. But the vast majority of people posting here have been northern Americans complaining about fuel prices.

I admit to being a little sensitive to this topic - so many people are complaining on this very issue, in the news, on the streets, at work, wherever BUT are making no attempts to lessen their personal fuel/energy needs. We seem to have forgotten that we don't actually have a right to cheap fuel, and we need to learn to make accomodations for that.

Sorry. I shouldn't have flown off the handle in that previous post. I shouldn't generalize so much.

I admit to being a little sensitive to this topic - so many people are complaining on this very issue, in the news, on the streets, at work, wherever BUT are making no attempts to lessen their personal fuel/energy needs. We seem to have forgotten that we don't actually have a right to cheap fuel, and we need to learn to make accomodations for that.

I think that it is out of line to complain about personal fuel consumption. Do I wish I consumed less fuel? Sure. But it is no reason to force people to cut back on using fuel. I don't care what the price of gas is, but it is the perrogative of man to, providing he can afford it, dump loads of fuel into an outdoor pit and just burn it for no reason.

Fair enough. But the vast majority of people posting here have been northern Americans complaining about fuel prices.

I admit to being a little sensitive to this topic - so many people are complaining on this very issue, in the news, on the streets, at work, wherever BUT are making no attempts to lessen their personal fuel/energy needs. We seem to have forgotten that we don't actually have a right to cheap fuel, and we need to learn to make accomodations for that.

Sorry. I shouldn't have flown off the handle in that previous post. I shouldn't generalize so much.
True, and I do admit that americans tend to bitch about fuel prices more than they should, as they are cheap...but it should be remembered that we've lived with low prices for a very long time. We have formed budgets around it, and those budgets are now being shattered. I just hope for those families that are struggling that they don't have to choose between food and heat...Luckily my state usually gives some kind of aid.

Best advice: INSULATE YOUR ROOF. it will save you so much money in the long run because heat rises. If you don't use a room, close it off. Try to bake/cook dinners to add heat and make food, accomplishing 2 tasks for the price of one. My mom after her first marriage lived in a raised ranch. She ended up living in the common room and using plastic to seal off the rest of her house. She loves to tell the stories of her house plants being frozen solid.
Point is, there is always a way to cut back, even if its to *gasp* WALK! somewhere. (note to Equus: this clearly isn't directed at you. you seem to have the same feeling I do...lol)

Oh - as for tips, I have a few from back on the farm in northern BC that haven't been mentioned yet:

1: Seal off your windows! Put plastic over the insides - stretched from frame to frame, not over the glass. You lose A LOT of heat out the windows. Also, keep your blinds or drapes drawn. Even if you have plastic over the windows, heavy drapes help a lot too.

2: Bunk together. If you have kids sleeping in separate rooms, consider having them share bedrooms. Four kids sleeping in one room put off a surprising amount of body heat. And then you can seal off the other rooms as Vaitupu suggested. (and throw the kids a spring party when winter is over and they can move to their own rooms again.)

3. Toss throw rugs along the walkways of lino or hardwood floors. Or wear socks and slippers. You can keep the thermostat down a little further if you don't notice the cold floors. You can even turn the heat down a lot at night this way without the shock of cold floors in the morning or during a trip to the bathroom in the wee hours.

True, and I do admit that americans tend to bitch about fuel prices more than they should, as they are cheap...but it should be remembered that we've lived with low prices for a very long time. We have formed budgets around it, and those budgets are now being shattered. I just hope for those families that are struggling that they don't have to choose between food and heat...Luckily my state usually gives some kind of aid.

Best advice: INSULATE YOUR ROOF. it will save you so much money in the long run because heat rises. If you don't use a room, close it off. Try to bake/cook dinners to add heat and make food, accomplishing 2 tasks for the price of one. My mom after her first marriage lived in a raised ranch. She ended up living in the common room and using plastic to seal off the rest of her house. She loves to tell the stories of her house plants being frozen solid.
Point is, there is always a way to cut back, even if its to *gasp* WALK! somewhere. (note to Equus: this clearly isn't directed at you. you seem to have the same feeling I do...lol)

Excellent advice. Insulation is the most effective way to conserve heat energy. Older homes often have cracks and gaps along the sills and in corners and around old windows- expanding urethane foam, sprayed into the cracks expands and seals them tight. Really reduces drafts.

There is a shrinkable plastic inner storm window that is effective. Tape it up on the inside of the window using double-sided tape and shrink it with a hair dryer. Prevents drafts and heat loss.

I hope more people switch to wood, pellets, or corn stoves - if only for part of their heating needs. It's renewable energy, cheaper than petroleum, and provides some independence from the energy companies. Everyone in the north should have a backup means to stay warm if the power went out for a few weeks.

I rigged up a tempering tank next to the wood stove. It pre-heated water so that it entered my hot water heater at about 125 degrees, rather than the normal 50. I saw a significant reduction in my electric bill. There are many ways such as this that a homeowner can reduce energy costs at home, and it's sort of fun to try and beat the oil company out of a little money.

I hope more people switch to wood, pellets, or corn stoves - if only for part of their heating needs. It's renewable energy, cheaper than petroleum, and provides some independence from the energy companies. Everyone in the north should have a backup means to stay warm if the power went out for a few weeks.

It goes without saying that everyone up here needs a heat source without power. One big blizzard or ice storm would freeze us insiide our homes without some form of a stove. I especially need one, as I have an electric furnace.

1: Seal off your windows! Put plastic over the insides - stretched from frame to frame, not over the glass. You lose A LOT of heat out the windows. Also, keep your blinds or drapes drawn. Even if you have plastic over the windows, heavy drapes help a lot too.
Ah yes...closing the curtains closed will help...but remember, we can use the sun to help us...lol. If you have a good exposure to the sun, open those shades during peak hours (11-2). The sun will warm the house during these hours. By closing the blinds during other hours, you can save tons in heat.

My house is 250 years old and very large. With my sister and me at school, my parents only heat 5 rooms (the kitchen, master bath, master bed, small family room, and dining room [on the same heater and connected to mentioned rooms]) holding the other rooms at 40 max (a total of 7 rooms). they still lose money on heat because the furnace is under unheated rooms. Insulating celings pays back within 5 years. Walls and such will pay back slightly slower...perhaps 7 to 8 years. Also, if you are considering a new home in the North, look for lower celings. High celings lose heat. Also remember that 68 is comfortable in summer. Just because you are indoors, dont think you cant walk around in layers. If you are struggling, bundle up indoors as well as out and drop the temperature of your house.

It also helps if you remember that the body naturally cools while sleeping. From 11-6, drop the temperature of your house to 68. You wont feel the difference as you will be asleep. It will save tons over the course of one winter