NationStates Jolt Archive

I was reading the thread about Europe and Russia combining forces for a new space flight vehicle, and it peaked my interests. As America is already planning to Weaponize space (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,62358,00.html) , could it be possible that maybe we aren't the only ones with the idea?

After all, no country likes the fact that America has military superiority. And claims by Russian and European government officaials that they don't want to weaponize space cannot be taken at face value. When was the last time that a government announced "secret" plans? Obviously nobody wants to come in second, so could this be the beginning of "Starwars" as we know it?

Which brings me to my second point. Is it right? Of course it isn't. Weapons should have no place on this earth or anywhere else. But they are everywhere. The only way to fight force is with force. The pen may be mightier than the sword, but has a sword ever stopped a missile?

Bottom line, I think it's inevitable. I isn't gonna be a "space race" It's gonna be a "space domination" race. Who will win? Who knows?

The level to which this is a bad idea is unbelievable. However...it will probably happen because in every country, somehow, it's always the idiots that are in charge...and they would do a thing like this.

Come on now. Were people really naive enough to think that nuclear weapons were the worst that humans could do? Just wait till the Air Force has a Deathstar!

My biggest concern wouldn't be competition from other nations. Competition would fuel ingenuity and technological innovation, and if the government won't expand our capabilities in space through NASA, they sure as hell will through the military.

My real concern is that we're already too far ahead. While the ESA and Russia are apparently now planning for cooperative ventures, the fact remains that no other nation has the money, the space experience, the military know-how, and the political will to enact such a program.

The result might be that other nations, specifically China and Russia, will view the U.S. weaponization of space as an attack on a STRATEGIC asset. Since it is unlikely they will be able to catch up, they will respond to this attack on their percieved strategic asset with a strategic attack of their own, namely nuclear weapons.

It's a worst case scenario, to be sure, but certainly possible. :(

It's a good idea in at least one respect. As it stands now a nuclear weapon detonated at the proper altitude would destroy the world's satelite communications infrastructure. If we had satelites that could detect the nuke's launch and destroy it prior to detonation we could prevent that from happening.

It's also inevitable.

There is evidence that weapons wich are used in space have been tested and are in use to this very day, so the thread isnt really telling me something new. :headbang:

There is evidence that weapons wich are used in space have been tested and are in use to this very day, so the thread isnt really telling me something new.

You claim that this evidence is documented.

Source please?

Instead of looking for the documented evidence on the forum you could try searching and participating in other forums wich deal with these sort of theorys and perhaps a link along with pgp key might be given to you, otherwise im unable to help you on this

You claim that this evidence is documented.

Source please?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/asat.htm

Try that for starters.

Good starting point Sierra BTHP ;)

The sweet taste of death from above, and I mean WAY above. It's like music to my ears and candu on my tounge. Now we need some star cruisers and unmanned space battle probes.

We must weaponize space craft in order to threaten the greatest foe of all . . .
Space itself!
For too long has our lack of space defenses allowwed space to run roughshod over our rights as denizens of the Planet Earth!
Here are just a few examples of the senseless enemy aggression:

Over the past thousands of years a Low Level Local Agent of Space (which goes by the alias Sol) has been attempting to destroy us all. Not only has Sol caused thousands of deaths through unrestricted and unrelenting nuclear attacks, but it seems that Sol has also been facillitaing the growth and development of various on planet terrorist groups, such as Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Poison Sumac, and Poison an American Hair Metal Band)
Millions of years ago, in an unprovoked attack, Space launched a RFBR (Really Fugging Big Rock, as we scientistologists call them) at Earth, causing untold environmental disaster and exterminating entire species. Not only that, but it seems that Space has several more RFBRs primed and ready for subsequent attacks.
Finally, Space has been testing a variety of weapons that I am almost completely positive aren't allowed in the Geneva Convention Hall of Geneva Ohio. Examples are Black Holes, Really Big Black Holes, and No Really, This Is One Hell of A Lot of Condenscend Matter.

Now, with long history of unrepentant aggression, can we trust space with the massive stockpile of WMDs, RFBRs, RBBH, and R&B that it is, no doubt, concealing from us (in addition to all off that crap that we can see)?
Can we trust a group that has developed nuclear power without even so much as walking by the U.N. building?
And then to say that we should let such a power completely surround us without even taking minimal steps in the direction of defense! You Hippie, Super Nova Hugging Fools will never understand the true danger of space!
We must act now, mein Fuhrer! Now before it is to late!

Here's the link to the thread on ESA/Russia cooperation - http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=446669

As to weaponized space, I'm not dumb, I realize it's in the future. I don't like it one bit, but it's going to come.

Ideally, I'd say any space weaponry should be owned internationally(IE. UN or whatever may replace it should it reform), for the defense of all nations against aggression. Not because I love the UN(well okay I do, but that's not why I suggest this) but because space weaponry in the hands on one or two nations is a really, really bad idea. Space-based weaponry allows for the possibility of unlimited, uninterceptable power projection for whatever nation owns it, as well as total control of world access to the Solar system. Quite simply put, this is FAR too important to be in the hands of a single government with it's own aims.

Imagine if the US could strike anywhere on the globe, without putting a single soldier or piece of equiptment in danger. Right or wrong, the US could attack anyone, anywhere, anytime for any reason without oversight or even the possibility of being contested on the battlefield, and incurring no media-unfriendly human costs that might force a re-evaluation of policy. I could not trust ANY government with that ability, be it the US, France, China, Russia or Sri Lanka. There's a maxim somewhere about absolute power...

Think what you will about the UN, but having a UN(or comprable organization) International Space-Based Defense Command seems far wiser than having a single nation with all that power. At least with the UN, there is some hope of not only forcing peaceful arbitration before use of such a weapon, but also having greater checks and balances will all nations being able to give an opinion on the matter. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. Is it the lesser of two evils? I'd say yes.

... And thus concludes my thoughts on the matter. Feel free to commence telling me how retarded I am and that the UN is evil. :p

I'm not convinced by the weaponised space business, to be honest. Nothing that worked came out of the first SDI programme, and Reagan ploughed a lot more cash into that one than has been spent on the second attempt so far.

Come on now. Were people really naive enough to think that nuclear weapons were the worst that humans could do? Just wait till the Air Force has a Deathstar!

Hahaha, love it !

No Star Wars !!

weaponizing space is a bad idea.
it is against the law. international law. treaty signed by the US, for one.
it is against US constitutional law for the US to put their weapons in space,
because, US constitution states that all treaties the US signs becomes the
law of the land, akin to a constitutional amendment.

that said, they will probably try to do it anyways.

but we can stop them.

let's start today and say,
weapons in space no way.
we want peace.
you want peace? lead the way. let's not be hypocrits,
but real leaders and lead the way. disarmament today.


here's one lead
http://www.warresisters.org/

Didnt america at some point in the not too distant past outlaw advertising in space?or did i dream that?

weaponizing space is a bad idea.
it is against the law. international law. treaty signed by the US, for one.
it is against US constitutional law for the US to put their weapons in space,
because, US constitution states that all treaties the US signs becomes the
law of the land, akin to a constitutional amendment.

that said, they will probably try to do it anyways.

but we can stop them.

let's start today and say,
weapons in space no way.
we want peace.
you want peace? lead the way. let's not be hypocrits,
but real leaders and lead the way. disarmament today.


here's one lead
http://www.warresisters.org/
Ha! Can't wait to see that! A bunch of hippies standing in a crowd chanting anti war chants, when all of the sudden ~~~ZZAAAAAAPPPPPP~~~ They are fried by a space based laser. The smell of marijuana and tied dyed t-shirts fills the air.

~EDIT~ Just checked out that link, and from what I can see, that laser that fries them will belong to the I.R.S. Ya GOTS to pay your taxes!

weaponizing space is a bad idea.
it is against the law. international law. treaty signed by the US, for one.
it is against US constitutional law for the US to put their weapons in space,
because, US constitution states that all treaties the US signs becomes the
law of the land, akin to a constitutional amendment.

that said, they will probably try to do it anyways.

but we can stop them.

let's start today and say,
weapons in space no way.
we want peace.
you want peace? lead the way. let's not be hypocrits,
but real leaders and lead the way. disarmament today.


here's one lead
http://www.warresisters.org/


Your interpretation of the status of treaties is sadly misinformed. They are NOT akin to a Constitutional amendment.

Go back and finish high school.

Fucking paranoid americans. Europe and Russia can't build a fucking spaceship without this bullshit "Omg, they're going to build weapons up there and attack us, we better build weapons in space just to be sure." meanwhile the Europeans and Russians are like "Hey, if we work together, then we can have a nice little space program and gain knowledge to benefit all humanity." Then, since some americans deceided to be paranoid, they'll put weapons up in space and then the Russians and the Europeans will be like "uh... wtf? I know they're our allies, but I don't trust them with that shit." and then they'll put weapons into space and then we'll all be sitting her pretty much with giant laser cannons to our heads in a global mexican standoff until some nutjob gets the remote control and blows us all to pieces.

Good fucking job.

Fucking paranoid americans. Europe and Russia can't build a fucking spaceship without this bullshit "Omg, they're going to build weapons up there and attack us, we better build weapons in space just bo e sure." meanwhile the europeans and russians are like "Hey, if we work together, then we can have a nice little space program and gain knowledge to benefit all humanity." Then, since some americans deceided to be paranoid, they'll put weapons up in space and then the Russians and the Europeans will be like "uh... wtf? I know they're our allies, but I don't trust them with that shit." and then they'll put weapons into space and then we'll all be sitting her pretty much with giant laser cannons to our heads in a global mexican standoff until some nutjob gets the remote control and blows us all to pieces.

Good fucking job.
As soon as I finish my cure for "Americabashus nutjobicus", I'll be sure to send you a dose!

As soon as I finish my cure for "Americabashus nutjobicus", I'll be sure to send you a dose!
I"m not bashing americans, I am an american... I'm bashing the whole paranoid notion that everyone is out to get you.

Look, NASA is severely underfunded and teh fact that congress controls the funding isn't helpful at all. Congress is made up of laymen, who know little or nothing about science, and they are dictating how much money should go into an organization that is highly scientific. This is why you get stupid shit like proposals about sending people to Mars and why Hubble is going to be left to rot well before a replacement can be sent up.

And now, the European nations and Russia have deceided to work together and produce some space shuttles and you're saying that they can't be trusted, despte the fact that they are allies, and that it is necessary to put arms in space (which is a fucking stupid idea to start with) just in case they deceide to do so because of course, your allies can't be trusted and are going to bomb the crap out of you at teh first available opportunity, right?

I"m not bashing americans,
Fucking paranoid americans.,
HHMMMM?

Fucking paranoid americans. Europe and Russia can't build a fucking spaceship without this bullshit "Omg, they're going to build weapons up there and attack us, we better build weapons in space just to be sure." meanwhile the Europeans and Russians are like "Hey, if we work together, then we can have a nice little space program and gain knowledge to benefit all humanity." Then, since some americans deceided to be paranoid, they'll put weapons up in space and then the Russians and the Europeans will be like "uh... wtf? I know they're our allies, but I don't trust them with that shit." and then they'll put weapons into space and then we'll all be sitting her pretty much with giant laser cannons to our heads in a global mexican standoff until some nutjob gets the remote control and blows us all to pieces.

Good fucking job.

The fact that we spent nearly fifty years on the seat-edge-of-our-pants, just waiting for a war between us and the USSR, might tell you why people are paranoid about the Russians having a good, servicable space program.

The monster may be dead, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't keep watching that egg it left behind.

HHMMMM?
Not all americans are paranoid. It just seems that the most paranoid end up in office.

The fact that we spent nearly fifty years on the seat-edge-of-our-pants, just waiting for a war between us and the USSR, might tell you why people are paranoid about the Russians having a good, servicable space program.

The monster may be dead, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't keep watching that egg it left behind.
The cold war is over. Calm the hell down. You're allies with the Russians now, aren't you?

weaponizing space is a bad idea.
it is against the law. international law. treaty signed by the US, for one.
it is against US constitutional law for the US to put their weapons in space,
because, US constitution states that all treaties the US signs becomes the
law of the land, akin to a constitutional amendment.

that said, they will probably try to do it anyways.

but we can stop them.

let's start today and say,
weapons in space no way.
we want peace.
you want peace? lead the way. let's not be hypocrits,
but real leaders and lead the way. disarmament today.


here's one lead
http://www.warresisters.org/

I like how you single out the US even though China and Russia are likely to be doing the same thing, even the E.S.A. for that matter.

Who says these weapons have to be pointed at Earth? Wouldn't it be nice to have a system set up that can detect and intercept incoming objects that may pose a danger to earth? Obviously nothing like the rock that landed in the Yucatan, but those car sized or even larger objects that could cause sizable damage once they hit earth?

Say what you want, but it is inevitable that one day we will contact/be contacted by another species from another planet, if we do not have any sort of defenses set up what is there to stop them from destroying man and using our planet as their own? Better safe than sorry. Besides, it would give us something to do and maybe keep us from going after eachothers throats for a few decades.

Fucking paranoid americans. Europe and Russia can't build a fucking spaceship without this bullshit "Omg, they're going to build weapons up there and attack us, we better build weapons in space just to be sure." meanwhile the Europeans and Russians are like "Hey, if we work together, then we can have a nice little space program and gain knowledge to benefit all humanity." Then, since some americans deceided to be paranoid, they'll put weapons up in space and then the Russians and the Europeans will be like "uh... wtf? I know they're our allies, but I don't trust them with that shit." and then they'll put weapons into space and then we'll all be sitting her pretty much with giant laser cannons to our heads in a global mexican standoff until some nutjob gets the remote control and blows us all to pieces.

Good fucking job.

Why fix what aint broke?

isnt there treaty where no one can claim the Moon as their Territory
Iam sure I read it book when i was younger

isnt there treaty where no one can claim the Moon as their Territory
Iam sure I read it book when i was younger

It is just like Antatctica, nobody can claim it as their own but we can build bases there, the US has something like 11 complex's on Antarcticaleading from the coast all the way to the South Pole.

Weaponized space? We of Super-power beat 'em to it :D
Seriously though, let's try and keep space weapon-free.

Which brings me to my second point. Is it right?

Very right for two reasons. One, a great deal of commerce passes through space today in the form of sattelites. More will follow with more frequent space flights, and a military presence (or better yet, several competing militaries) need to be in space. And two, it will be a bigger incentive for terrestrial nations not to go to war. The US and China, for example, seem likely to be the first two with some weapons in space. There are many things that may lead to conflict between the two powers down the road, but they may have less incentive to fight if both their cities can be wiped out by some orbitting death ray that is very hard for either one to detect.

There are many things that may lead to conflict between the two powers down the road, but they may have less incentive to fight if both their cities can be wiped out by some orbitting death ray that is very hard for either one to detect.
Maybe I'm naive, but the suspicion that the other bunch can wipe out whole cities from orbit strikes me as more another reason for them to fight than a safety blanket.

(Can I mention that it took me four attempts to post this nonsense? I know this is a busy site, but somebody is taking the piss.)

Maybe I'm naive, but the suspicion that the other bunch can wipe out whole cities from orbit strikes me as more another reason for them to fight than a safety blanket.

Unlikely. If so, nuclear weapons would've been used far more often. They weren't because they were a detterent. However, that doesn't mean space weapons will never be used. I see them being used to wipe out enemy positions. And if they use lasers, they will be far more precise than the smartest bomb, and hurt very few, if any, civilian bystanders.

... And if they use lasers, they will be far more precise than the smartest bomb, and hurt very few, if any, civilian bystanders.

famous last words.

Unlikely. If so, nuclear weapons would've been used far more often. They weren't because they were a detterent. However, that doesn't mean space weapons will never be used. I see them being used to wipe out enemy positions. And if they use lasers, they will be far more precise than the smartest bomb, and hurt very few, if any, civilian bystanders.
I doubt that it's possible to wipe out a city without hurting any civillians.
Nuclear weapons weren't used because governments feared the effect of sowing fallout upon the winds. Burning people up from orbit appears (on the face of it) a lot less likely to have disastrous consequences for the environment. Still, as it's never been made to work, that's neither here nor there.
(Is it worth mentioning that a sattellite can easily be destroyed by placing a bucket of nails in a counter rotating orbit?)

famous last words.
It's true. Weapons get more precise all the time. If anything, it's human error that kills civilians.

Unlikely. If so, nuclear weapons would've been used far more often. They weren't because they were a detterent. However, that doesn't mean space weapons will never be used. I see them being used to wipe out enemy positions. And if they use lasers, they will be far more precise than the smartest bomb, and hurt very few, if any, civilian bystanders.

This is a nice idea, but right now our targeting equipment just isn't that good. I mean, whe the millitary tests their missle-defence technology, they rate how well they did by how many miles they missed by. (Going at about a 50-ish record, if I can remember correctly).

Wepons will be built in space. Despite the fact that this sucks totally, it is inevitable. Also, it is just wishful thinking to theorize that they will be pointed outwards. This involves far too much forsight and scientific practability, it's political taboo.
We should be more expectant of satelites that realign untill their orbit passes over their target, then they carpet bomb it with heat resistant drop pods. Won't be used much (especially if the aim isn't so good), but sure will help in diplomacy. :eek:

It's true. Weapons get more precise all the time. If anything, it's human error that kills civilians.

Weapons do advance, but we're still early in this field anyway. Lazers are disrupted by the atmosphere, and our tech hasn't gotten around that fact yet.

I doubt that it's possible to wipe out a city without hurting any civillians.
Nuclear weapons weren't used because governments feared the effect of sowing fallout upon the winds. Burning people up from orbit appears (on the face of it) a lot less likely to have disastrous consequences for the environment. Still, as it's never been made to work, that's neither here nor there.

Well, don't forget, the sheer destruction a nuclear bomb wrought scared people away from them. That'd be true for space weapons as well.
And btw, weapon detterents happen on a lot of other levels. It's interesting to note that two fully modern militaries, like, say, Germany and Saudi Arabia, have never fough eachother. The weapons used today are very potent if fully employed, and can mire troops in battle so much, it'd make WWI look like a sweeping advance.

Well, don't forget, the sheer destruction a nuclear bomb wrought scared people away from them. That'd be true for space weapons as well.
And btw, weapon detterents happen on a lot of other levels. It's interesting to note that two fully modern militaries, like, say, Germany and Saudi Arabia, have never fough eachother. The weapons used today are very potent if fully employed, and can mire troops in battle so much, it'd make WWI look like a sweeping advance.
There's two points here:
1) What in Hell's name do Saudi Arabia and Germany have to go to war over?
2) If the Saudis have such an impressive army (it's news to me, I admit) why did they need your lot to bail them out when Hussein invaded?

It's been tried in the past and we are cpable of it. The major concern though is that wepaonising space will be like the Cold War all over again. Every nation and it's dog will struggle to place weapons in space to discourage other nations from using their weapons, it's one big can of worms.

There's two points here:
1) What in Hell's name do Saudi Arabia and Germany have to go to war over?
Irrelevant. I was just using those two to illustrate my point. There are an infinite amount of combinations possible.
2) If the Saudis have such an impressive army (it's news to me, I admit) why did they need your lot to bail them out when Hussein invaded?
Because they lived in la-la land until after the Gulf War, when they realized that they weren't loved and adored by everyone. They've spent a lot more resources developing an impressive, if small, military.

I like Orson Scott Card's view on the subject. Check out his "Ender Series" of books. They rock! Anyway, basically he says that an international fleet should control all things space and it should be unassociated with any one country, but be supported ($$$) by all.

I like Orson Scott Card's view on the subject. Check out his "Ender Series" of books. They rock! Anyway, basically he says that an international fleet should control all things space and it should be unassociated with any one country, but be supported ($$$) by all.

I so called that first page. So called that.

Who da man? I da man! Who da man! I da man! :D

Anyway, basically he says that an international fleet should control all things space and it should be unassociated with any one country, but be supported ($$$) by all.
YAY! Space Thuggery!
"Give us your ($$$) or we unleash 100000000000000 5P4C3 N00K5!!1!"

I don't see why everyone thinks that space weapons will be any different from Earth ones in the affect they have on things. They still have physics up there. Further, why should space be special? Recent science suggests that Jesus doesn't really live up there anymore.

The only way to fight force is with force.

Ever heard of this guy, Mohandas Gandhi? Oh wait, I forgot, he's not American as he's not important.

Better up there than down here.