NationStates Jolt Archive

First of all let me just explain a few things:

(1) For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic...

(2) For a while now I have been attending Evangelical services as well as visiting other denominations.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

I recognise that not all Roman Cathloics do the three things I mentioned.

I am not looking for a blood-bath of an argument - I merely wish to hear the response...

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

Because they're in Heaven.


(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

Because he is the successor of St. Peter, whom Jesus appointed to head the Church.


(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

To honor and aid in remembrance of them. Same reason we have statues of Washington et al.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?


I'm probably REALLY not the right one to answer these as i abandoned religion years ago in favour of atheistic philosophy. But having been born and raised a Catholic i'll give it a shot...

1)Mary gave birth to Jesus- Mother of God. Well... why not? :p

2)The Pope is the head of the Church on Earth(the last link to God so to speak)- we dont 'follow' him- he's handy to have to set down a rough doctrine- thats a major issue with Islam for instance- the way is open for anyone to interpret the Holy Book as they feel- there is no head to direct them and keep them in check.

3)See 1 for Mary and its veneration of people who did astounding things based on their faith and for the 'truth' etc etc.

Personally, i believe its all a cop out- but thats just me :D ;)

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

Mary is Jesus mother & if you are a believer, you can't not place significance on something like that. The saints are all very important figures in religious history also, for their own reasons.

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

Pretty much what the above poster said.

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

Pretty much what the first poster said.

Something I've been wondering for a really long time, right bang on topic here, and since there are roman catholics who are willing to answer an honest question maybe I'll give it a shot.

See, you guys pray to and sing to and worship Mary and the Saints right? Isn't that, well, to be blunt, idolotry? Since I was raised Christian and not Catholic I've never actually been to a catholic mass so I've never seen one with my own eyes that wasn't like on tv or something, but I've been in lots of cathedrals and I've always just really wondered how you justify worshiping so many other people. There's this huge pyramid of saints that get it, and sometimes Mary is more prominent in churches I see than God or Jesus.

If I could find a better way to phrase that I would, because I really am very curious and not looking to start any sort of trouble.

Something I've been wondering for a really long time, right bang on topic here, and since there are roman catholics who are willing to answer an honest question maybe I'll give it a shot.

See, you guys pray to and sing to and worship Mary and the Saints right? Isn't that, well, to be blunt, idolotry? Since I was raised Christian and not Catholic I've never actually been to a catholic mass so I've never seen one with my own eyes that wasn't like on tv or something, but I've been in lots of cathedrals and I've always just really wondered how you justify worshiping so many other people. There's this huge pyramid of saints that get it, and sometimes Mary is more prominent in churches I see than God or Jesus.

If I could find a better way to phrase that I would, because I really am very curious and not looking to start any sort of trouble.


Do me a favor: get a dictionary, look up "worship" and "veneration". Not the same thing, are they? We venerate Mary and the saints. We worship God. Oh, and BTW, FYI, Catholics are Christians. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus. Catholics, Orthodox, and even Moromons are Christians. For you Evangelicals to claim otherwise is extremely arrogant. Next time you ask "an honest question" please try to ask one that doesn't insult 1 billion people.

Do me a favor: get a dictionary, look up "worship" and "veneration". Not the same thing, are they? We venerate Mary and the saints. We worship God. Oh, and BTW, FYI, Catholics are Christians. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus. Catholics, Orthodox, and even Moromons are Christians. For you Evangelicals to claim otherwise is extremely arrogant. Next time you ask "an honest question" please try to ask one that doesn't insult 1 billion people.

Wow, hostile much?

I never said that all those people weren't 'christian' I just used the word to express my denomination. Way to jump down my throat for no reason.

I am the daughter of a minister, I went to over 150 different churches growing up, and I've seen a lot of the different denominations, from the Lutherans to the Southern Baptists and everything in between. We even got inside a JW church once, which was interesting to say the least. The catholics are the only group that ''venerate'' all those different saints and the only ones who name their churches after Mary instead of Jesus. Seeing as how I've just never been inside an actual mass ceremony, only read about it in books, seen it on tv and talked with ex-catholics turned christian I thought I'd ask, but your answer has effectively repelled me. Good job.

Just cause there's a lot of you doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned, and just because you were offended doesn't mean the question shouldn't have been asked. I did actually deserve an answer, and I went out of my way not to say something along the usual lines of what I think which is a hell of a lot less diplomatic.

Eep. The tone of that reply might be a little harsh, but I'd answer the points the basically the same way (having been born/raised between the mormon and a catholic sides of my extended family, anyway... I am more an atheistic/agnostic mix now that I can seek these answers for myself)

Comletely off topic, though...

Political compass-- Economic: -7.54 Social: -7.75
Moral compass -- Moral Rules: 6 moral order: -4.5

I have only two reference points and you have four... I feel so inadequate now. ;-)

Where can I read up on your version?

Your confusion is understandable, many Catholics who do not learn the Catechism feel the same way.

Wow, hostile much?

I never said that all those people weren't 'christian' I just used the word to express my denomination. Way to jump down my throat for no reason.

I am the daughter of a minister, I went to over 150 different churches growing up, and I've seen a lot of the different denominations, from the Lutherans to the Southern Baptists and everything in between. We even got inside a JW church once, which was interesting to say the least. The catholics are the only group that ''venerate'' all those different saints and the only ones who name their churches after Mary instead of Jesus. Seeing as how I've just never been inside an actual mass ceremony, only read about it in books, seen it on tv and talked with ex-catholics turned christian I thought I'd ask, but your answer has effectively repelled me. Good job.

Just cause there's a lot of you doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned, and just because you were offended doesn't mean the question shouldn't have been asked. I did actually deserve an answer, and I went out of my way not to say something along the usual lines of what I think which is a hell of a lot less diplomatic.


I didn't "jump down your throat" for no reason. I did it because of your veiled attack on my faith. Question us? yes. Belittle us with centuries old stereotypes? no. Yes, I'm hostile. I'm hostile to anyone who makes an attack disguised as innocent inquiry. And I could tell you would rather have been nasty. It was apparent from the way you worded your "question". You deserved an answer? granted. You got one. I'm tired of defending my beliefs from fundamentalist attacks. And yes, it is offensive. If you really just wanted to know about Catholicism, you wouldn't have asked flamebaiting questions like "you guys pray to and sing to and worship Mary and the saints, right?" Any Catholic would have been offended by that question. You had the misfortune of crossing paths with a Catholic who wasn't afraid to call you on it. It's also offensive when you refer to yourselves as simply "Christian" because it does imply that you think anyone who isn't of your particular denomination isn't a Christian.

I have only two reference points and you have four... I feel so inadequate now. ;-)

Where can I read up on your version?


Sorry, I don't have the link anymore. I'll try to find it, though.

Wow, hostile much?

I never said that all those people weren't 'christian' I just used the word to express my denomination. Way to jump down my throat for no reason.

I am the daughter of a minister, I went to over 150 different churches growing up, and I've seen a lot of the different denominations, from the Lutherans to the Southern Baptists and everything in between. We even got inside a JW church once, which was interesting to say the least. The catholics are the only group that ''venerate'' all those different saints and the only ones who name their churches after Mary instead of Jesus. Seeing as how I've just never been inside an actual mass ceremony, only read about it in books, seen it on tv and talked with ex-catholics turned christian I thought I'd ask, but your answer has effectively repelled me. Good job.

Just cause there's a lot of you doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned, and just because you were offended doesn't mean the question shouldn't have been asked. I did actually deserve an answer, and I went out of my way not to say something along the usual lines of what I think which is a hell of a lot less diplomatic.

While the poster you are replying to was a bit impolite their way of speaking, what Maineiacs said is somewhat valid. There is a large perception among other denominations that the Catholics are not "real" Christians somehow because they express admiration for the saints and mary in addition to the worship of Jesus. Main should have kept a lid on the temper, but saying something like "You're Catholic, I'm Christian" is very provocative to a lot of Catholics, it's a real hot button for them. I'm not saying it was right of Main to blow up like that, but I knew that someone was going to as soon as I read your post. You may not have intended it to be offensive in the slightest, but many Catholics (not all, of course) would [i]percieve[/b] it to be very arrogant. It's not the person who says something who decides if it's offensive, it's the person who hears it. Now, to the original topic. I am not Catholic anymore, but my dad and sister are.

1. Because they're great people, whose examples of following God should be admired. The view is that Catholics should aspire to be like them in their dedication to Christ, and such.

2. I don't know, my dad and sister don't like the current Pope very much.

3. Because people like to build statues of those they hold in high esteem. An earlier poster mentioned that we build statues of Washington, Lincoln, so forth for much the same reasons.

seen it on tv and talked with ex-catholics turned christian

catholics are christian...no turning involved

First: Since I was raised Christian and not Catholic...

Then: I never said that all those people weren't 'christian'...

Immediately followed by: ...and talked with ex-catholics turned christian...

I'm not here to join the wrecking crew, but put this way, you see the problem you're having, right?

The catholics are the only group that ''venerate'' all those different saints and the only ones who name their churches after Mary instead of Jesus..That's a lie and to quote my grandmother "lies make baby Jesus cry". Liber-Ordu, Anglicans, Catholic Light (some kind of American decendant of Catholicsm I think) are a couple that come mind, that all venerate the communion of saints.

In my mind, Christianity is the overall folder, like 'animal' and then you have subsections... in religion it's denominations, in the animal kingdom you then go down to 'mammal' 'insect' 'reptile' etc.

When I specify Christian vs Catholic vs Mormon etc it's simply an additional categorization, as all fall under the same heading. When I say that Catholic turned Christian, it means they've stopped doing the 'extra' things that separate catholics from the rest, the additional identifying specifics. I was raised Christian, but was not taught the things that make Catholics what they are. I never said that they weren't following the teachings of christ, I just put the accurate label on because of the category they choose to fall into.

I don't see where I'm having any problems here, it just seems like everyone is so ready for a fight they can't realize that sometimes the wording you take offense to has alternate logic behind it.

Could someone explain to me, in lay terms, the difference between worshipping and venerating? From what I've seen of Catholic practise (admittedly this is limited to going to church with my friend once or twice when I've stayed at her house, and religious studies lessons) it appears much the same - it's always seemed to me that Catholics 'worship' Mary and the saints in much the same way as they do Jesus, and certainly in my experience Mary's always seemed to have the most emphasis put onto her. I don't know (although feel free to correct me) of any other Christian denomination that prays to anyone other than God/Jesus, or indeed has statues of figures other than Jesus. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it; I thought one of the Commandments was not to worship idols?

OK, I never wanted this kind of hostility. It's just that the whole Mary and Saints thing seems rather immoral to me as Exodus 20:4

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

Not only that, but what about the "Hail Mary" prayer? You know:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God
Prayer for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Various Saints also have their own prayers (including the prayer of St. Francais of Assisi).

BUT WHY?!

There is only one devine being that we should be praying to as Christians (regardless of denomination) and that is God - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Praying to Mary will accomplish nothing - she cannot rid us of our sin...she cannot defend us before God the Father...she cannot saves us all from damnation. Only Jesus can.

So again I ask - why pray to those who are not God? Why pray to the saints and Mary?

Could someone explain to me, in lay terms, the difference between worshipping and venerating? From what I've seen of Catholic practise (admittedly this is limited to going to church with my friend once or twice when I've stayed at her house, and religious studies lessons) it appears much the same - it's always seemed to me that Catholics 'worship' Mary and the saints in much the same way as they do Jesus, and certainly in my experience Mary's always seemed to have the most emphasis put onto her. I don't know (although feel free to correct me) of any other Christian denomination that prays to anyone other than God/Jesus, or indeed has statues of figures other than Jesus. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it; I thought one of the Commandments was not to worship idols?

That's what I've asked, and they've turned it into a lynching, I hope you get a better reply than I did.

That's a lie and to quote my grandmother "lies make baby Jesus cry". Liber-Ordu, Anglicans, Catholic Light (some kind of American decendant of Catholicsm I think) are a couple that come mind, that all venerate the communion of saints.

Oops, this was posted while I was writing my last post - I stand corrected.

As someone who grew up catholic, and who has read a bit of the history of the Catholic Church, I think I can give you an answer from a historical perspective, and if in any part am I wrong, someone please do let me know.
It is my understanding that when Constantine proclaimed Christianity as the oficial religion of the Roman Empire (or what was left), the temples that were dedicated to the various gods of their mithos were rededicated to figures of importance in the new religion. Hence, the temples of Diana became the temples of Mary, and so on... Apollo, Mercury, etc. were substituted in their respective temples for apostles.
I know that this may seem as if the roots of the catholic faith as idolatry, but it is my humble opinion that it was the best way to introduce the people to Christianity. As the religion evolved, man of "pious virtue" or relevance in the faith were given the honor of having temples named after them, and because it was obvious that their conduct would deserve them the kingdom of heaven, they became Saints.

As to the veneration of Mary, besides the above mentioned, its important to remember the words of Christ on the cross addressed to John, which go something along the lines of: " brother, there is your mother, mother there is your son," which in catholic tradition means that Jesus proclaimed Mary as mother of us all, as we are his brothers.

As for the Pope, well, every major organization or religion since the dawn of civilization has needed a leader.

Hope this helped...

snip

Thank you! An explanation that makes total sense, that's wonderful.

When you ask for intecession of the Saints, you are not asking them to do anything, you are asking them to pray with you or for you themselves. At least that is how it was explained to me.

When you ask for intecession of the Saints, you are not asking them to do anything, you are asking them to pray with you or for you themselves. At least that is how it was explained to me.

seconded

Could someone explain to me, in lay terms, the difference between worshipping and venerating? From what I've seen of Catholic practise (admittedly this is limited to going to church with my friend once or twice when I've stayed at her house, and religious studies lessons) it appears much the same - it's always seemed to me that Catholics 'worship' Mary and the saints in much the same way as they do Jesus, and certainly in my experience Mary's always seemed to have the most emphasis put onto her. I don't know (although feel free to correct me) of any other Christian denomination that prays to anyone other than God/Jesus, or indeed has statues of figures other than Jesus. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it; I thought one of the Commandments was not to worship idols?

I agree. Is distressing when you hear people praying, PRAYING to a saint for a particular reason. With all due respect to those who do it, among who is my mother, the only one who could perform miracles was Jesus, God on earth. Those with gifts of healing, tongues, profecy, etc. have the blessing of the Holy Spirit, and THROUGH THEM, miracles happen, NOT BY THEM. We should follow the example of pious men and women, but venerate them ? our God is jealous... remember that !!!!

Could someone explain to me, in lay terms, the difference between worshipping and venerating? From what I've seen of Catholic practise (admittedly this is limited to going to church with my friend once or twice when I've stayed at her house, and religious studies lessons) it appears much the same - it's always seemed to me that Catholics 'worship' Mary and the saints in much the same way as they do Jesus, and certainly in my experience Mary's always seemed to have the most emphasis put onto her. I don't know (although feel free to correct me) of any other Christian denomination that prays to anyone other than God/Jesus, or indeed has statues of figures other than Jesus. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it; I thought one of the Commandments was not to worship idols?
We venerate Mary and the Saints. In the same wasy Americans venerate the flag. Hell you can venerate your spouse if you love them enough.

OK, I never wanted this kind of hostility. It's just that the whole Mary and Saints thing seems rather immoral to me as Exodus 20:4

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

Not only that, but what about the "Hail Mary" prayer? You know: No such thing excists. Since you seem to be ignorant of Catholicism, I will assume you mean the Ave Maria.

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God
Prayer for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.

Amen.The prayer was no written in English and as such it seem odd when it is spoken in it. This is the one point I aggree with Vatican I Catholics on, prayers should stay in Latin.

The prayer is more like:
Attention(hi?) Mary
You are graceful, you're with God
Women look up to you, your son Jesus is blessed
Blessed Mary the Mother of the Son of God
Pray for us sinner now
and when we die

Various Saints also have their own prayers (including the prayer of St. Francais of Assisi).Becauase various saint are models for us

BUT WHY?!

There is only one devine being that we should be praying to as Christians (regardless of denomination) and that is God - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Praying to Mary will accomplish nothing - she cannot rid us of our sin...she cannot defend us before God the Father...she cannot saves us all from damnation. Only Jesus can.

So again I ask - why pray to those who are not God? Why pray to the saints and Mary? Praying to a saint or to the Maddona will not acheive anything. Theya ren't God, but they are in Heaven, so they can talk to God for us.

When you ask for intecession of the Saints, you are not asking them to do anything, you are asking them to pray with you or for you themselves. At least that is how it was explained to me.

Regretably, that was not the burden or paradigm that I was taught nor what I've witnessed being practiced by many of my fellow catholics. Your explination makes sense, and I hope that this becomes a major doctrinal shift throughout the Catholic Church !!

Thank you! An explanation that makes total sense, that's wonderful.


You're most welcome !!

No such thing excists. Since you seem to be ignorant of Catholicism, I will assume you mean the Ave Maria.

The prayer was no written in English and as such it seem odd when it is spoken in it. This is the one point I aggree with Vatican I Catholics on, prayers should stay in Latin.

The prayer is more like:
Attention(hi?) Mary
You are graceful, you're with God
Women look up to you, your son Jesus is blessed
Blessed Mary the Mother of the Son of God
Pray for us sinner now
and when we die

Becauase various saint are models for us

Praying to a saint or to the Maddona will not acheive anything. Theya ren't God, but they are in Heaven, so they can talk to God for us.

That's funny... when I go to confession, the priest tells me to pray a certain amount of "Hail Mary"
...and actually, instead of latin, don't you think that it would be more appropiate to pray in either hebrew or arameic ?

And the person who posted that tread is not ignorant, that is an ugly word for someone who disagrees or is missinformed at best, or who wants to know your opinion.

That's funny... when I go to confession, the priest tells me to pray a certain amount of "Hail Mary"
...and actually, instead of latin, don't you think that it would be more appropiate to pray in either hebrew or arameic ?

And the person who posted that tread is not ignorant, that is an ugly word for someone who disagrees or is missinformed at best, or who wants to know your opinion.

As a classicist I'd say that Hail Mary is a perfectly acceptable translation of Ave Maria - 'hail' in this case being a greeting, so whoever said that Hail Mary doesn't exist is probably just trying to seem clever ;)

I agree that Hebrew/Aramaic would be a lot more appropriate than Latin, but the Romans (as is the civilisation, before you Catholics get out of your prams) did tend to think they were better than everyone else and as such imposed their language on everyone. It's just a historical/traditional thing, also it'd probably be a huge effort to translate all the prayers etc.

I was raised a Catholic, and as I understand it, the veneration of Mary and the Saints are something altogether different from worship. When you pray to Mary or a Saint, you are asking them to pray with and/or for you, just like you'd ask a friend to do the same. If you want the official doctrine I have a copy of the Catholic Catechism.

The Pope is seen as a direct successor of Peter, as said, and is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. Just like the Dalai Llama (sp?) is the leader of the Buddhist religion.

Statues are built in honor of people, for many different reasons.

but the Romans (as is the civilisation, before you Catholics get out of your prams)

You see, this is precisely the kinda sh*t the infuriates people. That comes across as patronising and condescending.

If i was to poke fun at the Evangelical uber-Churches, implying they were a radical offshoot of the true faith and are therefore not as important as the original faith- you'd go mental!

Get over this New World superiority complex- I have much more respect for Lutheran/Anglican faith in Europe then i do for the hysterical style of preaching in the Americas. You treat faith like they are second class ("I'm was catholic and now im Christian"...WTF?) and you will get an angry response.

First of all let me just explain a few things:

(1) For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic...

(2) For a while now I have been attending Evangelical services as well as visiting other denominations.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

I recognise that not all Roman Cathloics do the three things I mentioned.

I am not looking for a blood-bath of an argument - I merely wish to hear the response...
1...Because they are Gods Handymen.
2...Because he is Gods representative on earth.
3...Because Statues are cool.

You see, this is precisely the kinda sh*t the infuriates people. That comes across as patronising and condescending.

If i was to poke fun at the Evangelical uber-Churches, implying they were a radical offshoot of the true faith and are therefore not as important as the original faith- you'd go mental!

Get over this New World superiority complex- I have much more respect for Lutheran/Anglican faith in Europe then i do for the hysterical style of preaching in the Americas. You treat faith like they are second class ("I'm was catholic and now im Christian"...WTF?) and you will get an angry response.

I said it so I woudn't be misunderstood, because if someone had taken 'Roman' to mean Roman Catholic, then what I said subsequently to that would have understandably caused a great deal of offence!

Being firmly atheist, I've no feelings of loyalty to any Christian denomination, so would have no personal reason to 'go mental', other than being concerned that other people's feelings would be hurt.

A question to Roman Catholics...
First of all let me just explain a few things:

(1) For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic...

(2) For a while now I have been attending Evangelical services as well as visiting other denominations.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

I recognise that not all Roman Cathloics do the three things I mentioned.

I am not looking for a blood-bath of an argument - I merely wish to hear the response...

I been reading thru all this and i had wondered why someone who 'For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic' would'nt have known the answers to those questions he had asked, himself. If you change to another denomination of Christianity, they wont agree with what you were previously taught and will try and have you question your previous beliefs to prove they are right and the other is wrong. This is a no win situation, as what is right and what is wrong is something each person own beliefs bring about. I try and respect others beliefs even if i disagree, as i know its a personal faith to them.

Just like the Dalai Llama (sp?) is the leader of the Buddhist religion.


Sorry to be pedantic, but he's not. He's the spritual leader of the Tibetan people - no non-Tibetan Buddhists recognise him as their *leader*. Again, sorry to be pedantic.

I said it so I woudn't be misunderstood, because if someone had taken 'Roman' to mean Roman Catholic, then what I said subsequently to that would have understandably caused a great deal of offence!

Being firmly atheist, I've no feelings of loyalty to any Christian denomination, so would have no personal reason to 'go mental', other than being concerned that other people's feelings would be hurt.

Its the 'before you get out of your prams' comment that i found was merely asking for trouble. I was born and raised a Catholic- but abandoned it for something more enlightening and rewarding- it is the respect for the religion (as all others) that i find disturbing (not necessarily from you but from a lot on here).

Its the 'before you get out of your prams' comment that i found was merely asking for trouble. I was born and raised a Catholic- but abandoned it for something more enlightening and rewarding- it is the respect for the religion (as all others) that i find disturbing (not necessarily from you but from a lot on here).

Sorry, no real offence was meant. Sadly fora don't communicate tone as well as they should - that was a kinda jokey, good-humoured moment. I forget how touchy people are ;)

By Y'shua Bar Yoseph, this is so full of shit. NO religion has it right, and No religion will EVER get it right! I refused to listen to a bitchass priest tell me what is right and wrong; I'll make up my own mind thank you very much! And as someone that was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, I know that you're barely scratching the surface.

God knows there are many questions the church refuses to answer, and with good reason. "Be not afraid" my ass.

Man, you were excommunicated? Rock! Sometimes I wish I'd been born a Catholic so I could do that - I don't think there's any way to officially distance oneself from the Methodist Church :( Although if anyone knows of a way, pelase tell me!

In my mind, Christianity is the overall folder, like 'animal' and then you have subsections... in religion it's denominations, in the animal kingdom you then go down to 'mammal' 'insect' 'reptile' etc.

When I specify Christian vs Catholic vs Mormon etc it's simply an additional categorization, as all fall under the same heading. When I say that Catholic turned Christian, it means they've stopped doing the 'extra' things that separate catholics from the rest, the additional identifying specifics. I was raised Christian, but was not taught the things that make Catholics what they are. I never said that they weren't following the teachings of christ, I just put the accurate label on because of the category they choose to fall into.

I don't see where I'm having any problems here, it just seems like everyone is so ready for a fight they can't realize that sometimes the wording you take offense to has alternate logic behind it.

The correct terminology is Protestant vs. Catholic vs. Mormon. Replace all those "Christians" with "Protestants" and people won't find it offensive. I know you ment no harm by it. Certain parts of the US, especially areas without many Catholics, say Christians and Catholics. I've even heard Catholics from those regions say they aren't Christian (meaning Protestant) but Catholic. While I come from an area where Evangelicals and Catholics see each other as allies, this isn't true for all places in the world. Sometimes Protestants will try to marginalize Catholics by saying they aren't Christian. That's what they thought you were doing.

First of all let me just explain a few things:

(1) For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic...

(2) For a while now I have been attending Evangelical services as well as visiting other denominations.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

I recognise that not all Roman Cathloics do the three things I mentioned.

I am not looking for a blood-bath of an argument - I merely wish to hear the response...
as a former catholic you know the answers to all those questions. so why do you ask?

By Y'shua Bar Yoseph, this is so full of shit. NO religion has it right, and No religion will EVER get it right! I refused to listen to a bitchass priest tell me what is right and wrong; I'll make up my own mind thank you very much! And as someone that was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, I know that you're barely scratching the surface.

God knows there are many questions the church refuses to answer, and with good reason. "Be not afraid" my ass.
it takes quite an effort to be excommunicated. how did you manage it?

Sorry to be pedantic, but he's not. He's the spritual leader of the Tibetan people - no non-Tibetan Buddhists recognise him as their *leader*. Again, sorry to be pedantic.

ahh you're right, I misrepresented the Dalai Llama, my apologies

ahh you're right, I misrepresented the Dalai Llama, my apologies
to be even more pedantic. its dalai lama. a LLama is a southamerican pack animal

I'm Catholic, but I come from a Methodist family, and have some differing views from Catholic doctrine. My priest is very open to dissent, and it allows me to examine my faith closely.



(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

I revere them, but I think that the Church has gone overboard with them, turning them into a sort of cult. Truth be told, they wouldn't be saints or go to Heaven without the grace of God in the first place, so if you wish to pray to a saint, pray to God first.
(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

He's a symbol of our unity. A billion people, of course, will disagree in most theological matters, but when it comes to Mass, it is celebrated the same everywhere from Oklahoma to Osaka, and from Barbados to Brussels. In addition, I feel that the pope is an administrator trusted with the well being of our beloved Church, but is not exactly the dominator that some make him out to be.
(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

They look pretty. Some of the best Western art out there is Christian iconography.

First of all let me just explain a few things:

(1) For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic...

(2) For a while now I have been attending Evangelical services as well as visiting other denominations.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

I recognise that not all Roman Cathloics do the three things I mentioned.

I am not looking for a blood-bath of an argument - I merely wish to hear the response...


1) Catholics hold Mary in very high regard because she was apparently the only human being, apart from Adam and Eve, who was created without the stain of Original Sin on her soul. Apparently, on her death, both body and spirit were taken to Heaven, or so the story says.

2) The Pope is seen to be God's representative on Earth.

3) People build statues of Mary and the Saints as a reminder of the strength of faith in these people and to remind people of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

That's what the Church would like us all to believe in every sense of the word. However,my personal opinions differ slightly:

1) Having a female to worship in the Catholic Church makes them think that women will feel a little more connected to the Church and will therefore be more like to stay and spit out babies for them, because that's all we are, Catholic baby making factories.

2) The new Pope is a tosser. Sorry to say, I really don't like him. He's keeping the Church in the dark ages, I despise the links he has placed between paedophiles and gay men - now you can't become a priest if you're gay because you might abuse a child. HOW RIDICULOUS! What, just because a man is sexually attracted to another man means that he's automatically going to rape every kid around him?!? Man, if this Pope comes out and openly supports Creationism, I'm renouncing my faith.

3) The Church builds these statues because they're loaded, and have to do something with all that ill-gained cash. Other people build these statues to cash in, in the same way the Church does.

And I'm Catholic. And Irish. This stuff was beaten into us from birth. And there was no way to compare between different faiths, but if you did, and you were unfortunate to be in a private Catholic school, like the vast majority of the country, you were given a really rough time.

I think you're doing the right thing. Attending services of other faiths lets you keep your feet on the ground. If we embraced ALL faiths together, I think we'll end up closer to the actual truth of it all than if we only stuck to one...

I know that this may seem as if the roots of the catholic faith as idolatry, but it is my humble opinion that it was the best way to introduce the people to Christianity.

Agreed. (loathsome method...)

That's funny... when I go to confession, the priest tells me to pray a certain amount of "Hail Mary"
...and actually, instead of latin, don't you think that it would be more appropiate to pray in either hebrew or arameic ?
Roman Catholic. Official 'cool' language, and all.

1) Having a female to worship in the Catholic Church makes them think that women will feel a little more connected to the Church and will therefore be more like to stay and spit out babies for them, because that's all we are, Catholic baby making factories.

... It's sad how true that is. :(

OK, I never wanted this kind of hostility. It's just that the whole Mary and Saints thing seems rather immoral to me as Exodus 20:4

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

Not only that, but what about the "Hail Mary" prayer? You know:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God
Prayer for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Various Saints also have their own prayers (including the prayer of St. Francais of Assisi).

BUT WHY?!

There is only one devine being that we should be praying to as Christians (regardless of denomination) and that is God - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Praying to Mary will accomplish nothing - she cannot rid us of our sin...she cannot defend us before God the Father...she cannot saves us all from damnation. Only Jesus can.

So again I ask - why pray to those who are not God? Why pray to the saints and Mary?


Ok, you're missing the entire point of the prayer then.

It's not prayed in isolation, first of all. It's prayed along with the Lord's Prayer.

What it is is a request that Mary, who was born without sin, who was chosen by God to carry his incarnate form, whose fate, joy, and burden was to give the world the Christ child... pray for US, who are NOT perfect in the eyes of the Lord. Mary and the saints have no power to save us -- only the Lord does.

In other words, in addition to the prayers we send up to the Lord, we are asking one who has found favor with the Lord to intercede and to pray for us while we live and when we die.

We do not worship Mary. We strive to be as her and as the saints, as their lives were pleasing to the Lord.

Wow, hostile much?

I never said that all those people weren't 'christian' I just used the word to express my denomination. Way to jump down my throat for no reason.

I am the daughter of a minister, I went to over 150 different churches growing up, and I've seen a lot of the different denominations, from the Lutherans to the Southern Baptists and everything in between. We even got inside a JW church once, which was interesting to say the least. The catholics are the only group that ''venerate'' all those different saints and the only ones who name their churches after Mary instead of Jesus. Seeing as how I've just never been inside an actual mass ceremony, only read about it in books, seen it on tv and talked with ex-catholics turned christian I thought I'd ask, but your answer has effectively repelled me. Good job.

Just cause there's a lot of you doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned, and just because you were offended doesn't mean the question shouldn't have been asked. I did actually deserve an answer, and I went out of my way not to say something along the usual lines of what I think which is a hell of a lot less diplomatic.


Not being hostile but you need to go through a few phone books at the Lutheran, Episcopal many more denominations including some Baptists name their churches after saints. While you may not have meant to be insulting when you say something like "ex-catholics turned christian" you are being insulting. We are Christian. I am an ex Southern Baptists who has found the light in the Catholic Church.

Regards,

JMayo

First of all let me just explain a few things:

(1) For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic...

(2) For a while now I have been attending Evangelical services as well as visiting other denominations.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

I recognise that not all Roman Cathloics do the three things I mentioned.

I am not looking for a blood-bath of an argument - I merely wish to hear the response...
1] Because they are the holiest people around. Apart from that, we don't as much as people think. Really.

2] Spiritual heir of Peter, rock upon which the Church is built. Peter was chosen by Jesus, Peter chose his successor… the line goes on and on and is totally legitimate.

3] Why not? It's not idolatry 'cos we don't worship them. 'S called art.

the whole saint thing is a great aspect of the christian faith.

we are told to live a good christian life but the question remains "what constitutes a good christian life?"

the saints give us hundreds of examples of what the church considers to be outstanding christian lives. we can look through the list and find many that inspire us to live our own lives better.

I am an ex Southern Baptists who has fund the light in the Catholic Church.

Congratulations! :)

I too am a relatively recent convert to Catholicism from a devoutly Lutheran family.

LOL while I am a Catholic who consorts with Lutherans.... ;)

I am no longer a practicing Catholic, but at the Catholic school I attended, we were taught that you may pray to The Virgin Mary and/or the Saints to act as intercedents between you and God, should you feel the need for it.

Mariolatry, as a general rule was not practiced; however, at my church we did have an honorary day for Mary in May.
On that day, all the kids in school would bring flowers to lay at the feet of the statue of Mary that was in a small sanctuary outside the rectory, which was handily right next to the school. I remember that we did a special Mass on that day but that's all I remember, and that's the only day we did it.

I don't remember having special masses for any of the Saints, not even the one my school was named for. The only other thing I can remember doing is Stations of the Cross during Easter season.

Congratulations! :)

I too am a relatively recent convert to Catholicism from a devoutly Lutheran family. Welcome to the family. :)

OK, I never wanted this kind of hostility. It's just that the whole Mary and Saints thing seems rather immoral to me as Exodus 20:4

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

Not only that, but what about the "Hail Mary" prayer? You know:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God
Prayer for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Various Saints also have their own prayers (including the prayer of St. Francais of Assisi).

BUT WHY?!

There is only one devine being that we should be praying to as Christians (regardless of denomination) and that is God - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Praying to Mary will accomplish nothing - she cannot rid us of our sin...she cannot defend us before God the Father...she cannot saves us all from damnation. Only Jesus can.

So again I ask - why pray to those who are not God? Why pray to the saints and Mary?
They are prayed to, to act as intercesors(sp) on our behalf to God, basicly you "pray" to them and ask them to ask God to do something for you, usually involving what ever issue it is they have been made the Patron Saint of.

OK, I totally lost it yesterday. But I'm sure I'm not the only Catholic in the US that gets tired of attacks from evangelicals, especially when they're "just wanting to ask a few questions". My faith is important to me, but I see my faith as an answer, not the answer. Why can't they afford us the same respect? If Ellanesse really wanted to understand Catholicism, could she not have found a better way of asking?

Welcome to the family.

Thanks. Who would have thought that, in two years, a previously stubborn Lutheran (who was very cynical towards the Catholic Church), could become essentially a Catholic Apologist? Miracles do happen, eh? :D

LOL while I am a Catholic who consorts with Lutherans....

Haha. I still have plenty of Lutheran family and friends, but am firmly Catholic. In reality the difference between the two groups are very small, and it is mostly non-theological issues that separates them.

OK, I totally lost it yesterday. But I'm sure I'm not the only Catholic in the US that gets tired of attacks from evangelicals, especially when they're "just wanting to ask a few questions". My faith is important to me, but I see my faith as an answer, not the answer. Why can't they afford us the same respect? If Ellanesse really wanted to understand Catholicism, could she not have found a better way of asking?
I just want to second this, the area I live in happens to be largely Catholic, due to a large precentage of people of Irish, Italian, and Polish ancestory, but I still see this crop up everyonce in a while and it is rather insulting to have churches that actually came from our church originally, get this attitude that Catholics aren't christians.

OK, I totally lost it yesterday. But I'm sure I'm not the only Catholic in the US that gets tired of attacks from evangelicals, especially when they're "just wanting to ask a few questions". My faith is important to me, but I see my faith as an answer, not the answer. Why can't they afford us the same respect? If Ellanesse really wanted to understand Catholicism, could she not have found a better way of asking?

She may not understand fully that the things she is saying can be insults.
She may not understand the concept of an intercessors. And she may not understand that prayer no matter how prayed builds personal strength.
One thing about Evangelicals that I have found is they are stubborn beyond belief where it comes to their beliefs. Because that is what it ends up being about, them. You can count the number of times she was answered and still not get it. So she could be one of those who believes in her heart that because we are Catholic we are going to hell.
But it is very clear she has not heard one thing anyone said and not everyone was hostile.

Regards,

JMayo

She may not understand fully that the things she is saying can be insults.
She may not understand the concept of an intercessors. And she may not understand that prayer no matter how prayed builds personal strength.
One thing about Evangelicals that I have found is they are stubborn beyond belief where it comes to their beliefs. Because that is what it ends up being about, them. You can count the number of times she was answered and still not get it. So she could be one of those who believes in her heart that because we are Catholic we are going to hell.
But it is very clear she has not heard one thing anyone said and not everyone was hostile.

Regards,

JMayo
Thats not really fair she did catch on eventualy, to the answers to her questions at least if not the fact that using Christians as Synonymos with Protastant, can be insulting to non Protastant Christians.

As an American convert from United Methodism, I'll try to place my answers from the way I found them.

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

It all stems from the belief that people in heaven are still capable of praying to God.

Why do you ask someone in your Bible study group to pray for you? Can you not pray to God yourself? This is the same concept, only the people who are in heaven have that, well, *heavenly* communion with God that we constantly seek here on Earth.

Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. Because of it the ancients were well attested. ((the chapter then describes Godly people in the Old Testament, from Abel to Samuel, until Hebrews 12 begins:)) Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.

Just as Mary directed others to Christ:

His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."


So she directs us to God; she prays with us. The "Hail Mary" prayer is quoted from Luke:

And coming to her, ((Gabriel)) said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."
Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
And Mary said:
"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ((and it continues beautifully))"

This is the beginning of the Hail Mary prayer is thus merely a Biblical description.

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God
Prayer for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.

The part I bolded is the only part that asks Mary to do something for us: pray. Just as we ask each other here on Earth to pray, it only encourages us to pray to God as well.

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

Because Jesus always put a leader in place of his Church, under which the other Christians cooperated. You've probably heard the "keys to the kingdom of heaven" quote, so I'll go to a different one:

As ((Paul and others)) traveled from city to city, they handed on to the people for observance the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem. Day after day the churches grew stronger in faith and increased in number.

These verses distinguish between the individual church communities ("Day after day the churches grew") and the central, universal church ("decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem"). Apostolic succession did not end with the apostles, as is evidenced by the fact that a replacement was needed for Judas:

Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these twoo you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place." Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles."

Bishops aren't chosen by lot anymore, but the Church still prays to Christ when making these decisions. I highly recommend closely reading the book of Acts: it tells a lot about the survival of the Church after Christ's ascension, and it shows the need for centrality with accountability. Just as Paul confronted Peter (and made a big deal of it, which it was), so have bishops from time to time disagreed with the Pope. The Pope is only infallible on matters of faith and morals, and he is only so whenever he has discussed with the Council of Cardinals. Very much like Acts.

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

Graven images are bad. Idols are bad. Icons, on the other hand, direct worship back to God and focus it. As the Catechism reminds us:

Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim. (Cf. Numbers 21:4-9; Wisdom 16:5-14; John 3:14-15; Exodus 25:10-22; 1 Kings 6:23-28 and 7:23-26)

The snake statue was not worshipping snakes, nor were the statues of little people (cherubim) contrary to God's worship.

The difference between worship and veneration is where the devotion is aimed toward. Any status we give to Mary or other saints is due to their devotion to Christ; any status we give to Christ/God is due to his own deeds and love.

Even relics and artifacts have power in the Bible:

So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

Superstitious mumbo-jumbo? Magick? Nope, this is none other than our Lord accomplishing mighty deeds through a piece of fabric that touched Paul. Sounds medieval, sure, but it's Biblical.

Before you change to Protestantism, consider the following:

1) Who chose which books would be in your Bible? Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit has overseen our councils that decided on the final canon. Martin Luther wished to have several removed, including not just the deuterocanonical ("apocryphal") books of the Old Testament but also New Testament books such as the Letter of James, which contradicted his interpretations.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Incidentally, the Protestant canon has 66 books while the Catholic one has 73.

2) Do you say the "Our Father" prayer, which is biblical?

This is how you are to pray:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread;
and forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors;
and do not subject us to the final test,
but deliver us from the evil one.

Does this church add, "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever?" Because Catholicism has no problem adding it on rare occasions (because it's true!), but we usually stick to the quoted portion because it is the only part in the Bible. For a group who is sola scriptura, that may cause problems.

3) Does your church believe in the true presence in the Eucharist? This was a generally decided issue before Calvin came along.

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe."

Does it shock you that that little wafer and bit of wine becomes God's body and blood? How are you supposed to believe that God actually died, came back, and ascended up into heaven? The next part's the kicker:

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Notice the chapter and verse numbers. Over and over the biblical writings pound this theme in:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

What is all this talk about "answering for the body and blood", about "discerning the body", if this is all for the sake of tradition and memory? Isn't that kind of meaningless ceremony left to the Old Testament?

These are just a few things. I'd love to talk more about this, considering I had good reasons for conversion, but the post is so long already...

That's funny... when I go to confession, the priest tells me to pray a certain amount of "Hail Mary"
...and actually, instead of latin, don't you think that it would be more appropiate to pray in either hebrew or arameic ?

And the person who posted that tread is not ignorant, that is an ugly word for someone who disagrees or is missinformed at best, or who wants to know your opinion.
No, because the Ave Maria was written in Latin. The person who posted this thread is ignorant, ignorance isn't a bad thing, it just means you don't yet have that pertivular knowledge.

OK, I never wanted this kind of hostility. It's just that the whole Mary and Saints thing seems rather immoral to me as Exodus 20:4

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

Not only that, but what about the "Hail Mary" prayer? You know:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God
Prayer for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Various Saints also have their own prayers (including the prayer of St. Francais of Assisi).

BUT WHY?!

There is only one devine being that we should be praying to as Christians (regardless of denomination) and that is God - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Praying to Mary will accomplish nothing - she cannot rid us of our sin...she cannot defend us before God the Father...she cannot saves us all from damnation. Only Jesus can.

So again I ask - why pray to those who are not God? Why pray to the saints and Mary?

If you read the scriptures you will notice that Jesus could never deny the requests of his mother, for he was very close to her. We ask Mary to pray to God for us, we do not pray to Mary as a god.

Even Protestants "pray" to angels for help and comfort, its the same with saints.

Man, you were excommunicated? Rock! Sometimes I wish I'd been born a Catholic so I could do that - I don't think there's any way to officially distance oneself from the Methodist Church :( Although if anyone knows of a way, pelase tell me!

Join the freemasons, that should do the trick.

[QUOTE=Krakozha]1)

And I'm Catholic. And Irish. This stuff was beaten into us from birth. And there was no way to compare between different faiths, but if you did, and you were unfortunate to be in a private Catholic school, like the vast majority of the country, you were given a really rough time.
QUOTE]

i dont recognise this view of irish catholicism. born, bred and still living in the north of ireland and as an attendee of a catholic grammer school we were encouraged to question at every given opportunity and had lots of trips to various differant denominations....how can one defend ones faith if you yourself do not question it? to not debate meant failing this subject and dissent was the norm...and we were taught to question by priests...
.....off the topic however..apologies

[QUOTE=Krakozha]

And I'm Catholic. And Irish. This stuff was beaten into us from birth. And there was no way to compare between different faiths, but if you did, and you were unfortunate to be in a private Catholic school, like the vast majority of the country, you were given a really rough time.
QUOTE]

i dont recognise this view of irish catholicism. born, bred and still living in the north of ireland and as an attendee of a catholic grammer school we were encouraged to question at every given opportunity and had lots of trips to various differant denominations....how can one defend ones faith if you yourself do not question it? to not debate meant failing this subject and dissent was the norm...and we were taught to question by priests...
.....off the topic however..apologies

While i agree with you i can also see the above posters point of view- It is dependent on the era you were educated in and ESPECIALLY what kind of order ran the school.

Dominican for me- but the dreaded Christian Brothers were the top dogs for fear in the 50's 60's and 70's
:p

[QUOTE=Gillsy]

While i agree with you i can also see the above posters point of view- It is dependent on the era you were educated in and ESPECIALLY what kind of order ran the school.

Dominican for me- but the dreaded Christian Brothers were the top dogs for fear in the 50's 60's and 70's
:p

granted....late 80's 90's myself so i guess that would make a big differance...
automatic irish defensive there i guess :-/...us black northerners are too touchy for our own good

granted....late 80's 90's myself so i guess that would make a big differance...
automatic irish defensive there i guess :-/...us black northerners are too touchy for our own good

No worries :p I know what you mean :D

I agree that Hebrew/Aramaic would be a lot more appropriate than Latin, but the Romans (as is the civilisation, before you Catholics get out of your prams) did tend to think they were better than everyone else and as such imposed their language on everyone. It's just a historical/traditional thing, also it'd probably be a huge effort to translate all the prayers etc.

Prayers have already been translated: since Vatican II Catholics use thir own modern language in both Mass and prayers. Latin is still the official language of the church, and is still used sometimes and in some circumstances, but lots of young people have never been to a latin Mass.

Questioning one's faith and finally coming to the conclusion that one believes, I think, makes for a more devout person than one who has never doubted and simply follows blindly.

One thing about Evangelicals that I have found is they are stubborn beyond belief where it comes to their beliefs. Ha. All people are stubborn where it comes to their beliefs, religious or otherwise.
i dont recognise this view of irish catholicism. born, bred and still living in the north of ireland and as an attendee of a catholic grammer school we were encouraged to question at every given opportunity and had lots of trips to various differant denominations....how can one defend ones faith if you yourself do not question it? to not debate meant failing this subject and dissent was the norm...and we were taught to question by priests... I find this concept... odd. Isn't the idea of Faith that you believe without logical proof or evidence? Isn't the act of questioning your faith, looking for some reason to have it, some reason why you believe? Doesn't the fact that you are looking for a reason to believe show that you don't have faith?
Or is the idea that you are supposed to realise that you don't need a reason or something?
Maybe I just don't understand the concept of faith.

Ha. All people are stubborn where it comes to their beliefs, religious or otherwise.
I find this concept... odd. Isn't the idea of Faith that you believe without logical proof or evidence? Isn't the act of questioning your faith, looking for some reason to have it, some reason why you believe? Doesn't the fact that you are looking for a reason to believe show that you don't have faith?
Or is the idea that you are supposed to realise that you don't need a reason or something?
Maybe I just don't understand the concept of faith.

thats a fair enough point but its not the pursuit of evidence for faith.....
its the facing of questions, doubts etc and coming out the other side with your faith...tempered as it were...

not sure if that makes sense but thats how i see it *shrugs*

Thats not really fair she did catch on eventualy, to the answers to her questions at least if not the fact that using Christians as Synonymos with Protastant, can be insulting to non Protastant Christians.


Psyler you are correct that was very unfair to Ellanesse.
I went back over the thread and saw a post I had missed.

Ellanesse my apology


Regards,

JMayo

i dont recognise this view of irish catholicism. born, bred and still living in the north of ireland and as an attendee of a catholic grammer school we were encouraged to question at every given opportunity and had lots of trips to various differant denominations....how can one defend ones faith if you yourself do not question it? to not debate meant failing this subject and dissent was the norm...and we were taught to question by priests...
.....off the topic however..apologies

Well, up until fairly recently, the priest was someone in the community who was both revered and feared. Questioning your faith was blasphemous. Priests had the power to break up families if they believed that the parents were living immoral lifestyles. I read about one poor woman, mother of four children who's husband died, so after a respectable period of time, she began seeing someone new, and he stayed over with her one night, so the local priest barged in and took her kids away from her.
Northern Ireland, not strictly being part of the Republic, was probably a little different and more open considering the divides in the region between Catholic and Protestant. Maybe the teachings you received were to promote more understanding in the hope that peace would be established in that region.
To us when we were kids, Catholicism was the only faith that we knew about. Only when we were old enough to research ourselves did we come to understand the differences in beliefs and faiths across the world. It wasn't until fifth year in school (around the 16-17 yr old mark) that different beliefs were taught to us. Two girls I went to school with decided to become Mormon, and they were put down by teachers and the Principle (who happened to be a nun) when they complained. Both bright, intelligent girls with a lot of potential, dropped out of school and ended up in menial jobs because of their lack of education.

As much as people hate having religion shoved in their faces, it's happening all the time...such a waste...

Interesting how every discussion on religion on any of these boards turns to misunderstanding, then hostility, then bashing. :( The person who started this thread just wanted to ask some questions. Let's try not to assume they intend to bash we Catholics.

Anyway, to answer the main question, why Mary and the saints?
We don't worship them, for God alone is worthy of worship. We honor them because they're God's holy people. When we ask for intercession, we don't ask for the saint to intercede on his or her own merits. We ask instead that they ask God for a favor on our behalf. Don't think of it as worship, but more asking a good friend to pray for you. We honor Mary especially because Christ told us to. When Mary and Christ's beloved apostle came to the foot of the cross, Jesus said to Mary, "Woman, behold your son," and then to the apostle, "Behold, your mother." Scripture says he took her into his house from that day forward. If we're to be beloved disciples of Christ, should we not obey that same command and honor our mother?

Well, up until fairly recently, the priest was someone in the community who was both revered and feared. Questioning your faith was blasphemous. Priests had the power to break up families if they believed that the parents were living immoral lifestyles. I read about one poor woman, mother of four children who's husband died, so after a respectable period of time, she began seeing someone new, and he stayed over with her one night, so the local priest barged in and took her kids away from her.
Northern Ireland, not strictly being part of the Republic, was probably a little different and more open considering the divides in the region between Catholic and Protestant. Maybe the teachings you received were to promote more understanding in the hope that peace would be established in that region.
To us when we were kids, Catholicism was the only faith that we knew about. Only when we were old enough to research ourselves did we come to understand the differences in beliefs and faiths across the world. It wasn't until fifth year in school (around the 16-17 yr old mark) that different beliefs were taught to us. Two girls I went to school with decided to become Mormon, and they were put down by teachers and the Principle (who happened to be a nun) when they complained. Both bright, intelligent girls with a lot of potential, dropped out of school and ended up in menial jobs because of their lack of education.

As much as people hate having religion shoved in their faces, it's happening all the time...such a waste...

again i can only say that was not and is not my experience

granted there have been many preists and nuns in the past who have screwed up peoples lives..and i will readily admit this
however that has not been my experience with priests or nuns...maybe i was lucky...but generalising the wrong doings of individuals to all those who have taken vows is not right and is something that happens much too often


thats the first time i've heard the north has been called open though....jeezus if you only knew man..hahahaha

thats a fair enough point but its not the pursuit of evidence for faith.....
its the facing of questions, doubts etc and coming out the other side with your faith...tempered as it were...

not sure if that makes sense but thats how i see it *shrugs*
Fair enough I guess.

Well, up until fairly recently, snip

Just to make clear to anyone who think this means 5-10 years ago... it doesn't.

S/he's refering to a generation or two ago. The power of the Church in Ireland in that respect pretty much ceased after the 1960's. (maybe the 1970's at a push)

No, because the Ave Maria was written in Latin.

The Ave Maria was written in Latin (not sure on this point, the official language of the early Church was Greek, and I don't know when the Ave Maria as a prayer was first used), quoting tha latin translation of something written in Greek (the Gospel, this point I'm sure of), so praying in Greek could be more appropriate.

Or one could just pray in whatever language makes sense in the specific contest, possibly one that he knows (I know of an old woman who used to pray telling something like "Ave Maria memento memento tu Iesu", because she had no clue what she was talking about).

No such thing excists. Since you seem to be ignorant of Catholicism, I will assume you mean the Ave Maria.

The prayer was no written in English and as such it seem odd when it is spoken in it. This is the one point I aggree with Vatican I Catholics on, prayers should stay in Latin.

The prayer is more like:
Attention(hi?) Mary
You are graceful, you're with God
Women look up to you, your son Jesus is blessed
Blessed Mary the Mother of the Son of God
Pray for us sinner now
and when we die

Becauase various saint are models for us

Praying to a saint or to the Maddona will not acheive anything. Theya ren't God, but they are in Heaven, so they can talk to God for us.

Ok, first of all, you are wrong as such a thing DOES exist as I spent many years repeating it over and over again, with it being reffered to as, guess what - THE HAIL MARY!

And as for Mary and the Saints talking to God on our behalf - wow, a true Christian you must be? Do you actually read the Bible? Let me make this clear to you - ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE US FROM HELL AND SIN!

Now, as a Christian, how can you say that praying to Mary or the Saints do us any good? In the Bible (try Colossians 1:15-23) it tells us that only Jesus can save us. So where are we taught that Mary can save us? Where is it taught that any Saint can save us?

I apologise for the aggressive tone, but I do not like being reffered to as ignorant when you are the one who has made the mistake.

As has been pointed out SEVERAL TIMES, we don't pray to them. We ask them to pray with us. If, as you say, you said the Hail Mary 'for years', you must have been Catholic, yes? If so, you would know that already so the only reason you would have posted that was to be obnoxious. Congratulations, you succeeded. I don't care in the least what your religion is now, but stop attacking mine!

Passivocalia has given the best response I've heard so far.

Non-agressive, well spoken and with Biblical refferences to back up his points.

That's all I wanted - not people screaming down my throat.

However my bottom line points are:

1 - Only Jesus can save us. Only Jesus can stand between us and God's Judgement - Mary and the Saints CANNOT talk to God on our behalf, although I will admit that they can pray for us, but there is still no point in praying to them to pray for us.

2 - If you wish to be a good christian, look to the Bible and Jesus, not to the Pope.

3 - To the person who said that Jesus had to obey his mother because he was so close to her - Jesus is God and therefore answers to no one.

I thank everyone for putting in their opinions, beliefs and points of views. I apologise for every insult that has been traded - I take full responsibilty. I apologise for my arrogance and I hope we have all learned more about our faiths.

If you wish to continue making your points, then please feel free to continue. I have respect for everyone who has defended their point - bless you all.

Mary is Jesus mother & if you are a believer, you can't not place significance on something like that.
I have a few related questions (I don't mean any of these to sound disrespectful at all, I am honestly curious, and if anything sounds offensive it's probably because I don't entirely understand many Catholic beliefs):

Why does Mary's status as Jesus' mother mean anything? She was just the vessel chosen to host the Holy Ghost's seed or whatever it was, and all she did was allow her body to do what pretty much any female body can do at that age. I mean, if Mary had never been born, don't you think God would probably have found another girl to birth Jesus? Also, if Mary's role as "mother" is venerated because of her nurturing role in Jesus' life, then why is Joseph not similarly honored? Doesn't that kind of disrespect the father's role in a child's life? I mean, God was kind of a dead-beat dad for the first bit of Jesus' life, so shouldn't we be honoring Joseph for stepping up to support another "Man"'s child?

As has been pointed out SEVERAL TIMES, we don't pray to them. We ask them to pray with us. If, as you say, you said the Hail Mary 'for years', you must have been Catholic, yes? If so, you would know that already so the only reason you would have posted that was to be obnoxious. Congratulations, you succeeded. I don't care in the least what your religion is now, but stop attacking mine!

First of all I apologise if you feel that I am attacking your religion.

Secondly, yes I was a Roman Catholic for about 16 years, so I suppose you would expect me to "know all this already" but to be honest I never really fully understood the ideas behind the way we did things. I didn't understand the point of praying to Mary when only Jesus could save us. I didn't understand why we made statues when they were not people to be idolised. I didn't understand why we followed the Pope.

But I followed...because I wanted to be a good Catholic...yes I had many questions about Catholicism, but what did it matter what I thought - I was just an ignorant kid.

Do you see why I ask?

I am sorry that I upset you. Really man.

I have a few related questions (I don't mean any of these to sound disrespectful at all, I am honestly curious, and if anything sounds offensive it's probably because I don't entirely understand many Catholic beliefs):

Why does Mary's status as Jesus' mother mean anything? She was just the vessel chosen to host the Holy Ghost's seed or whatever it was, and all she did was allow her body to do what pretty much any female body can do at that age. I mean, if Mary had never been born, don't you think God would probably have found another girl to birth Jesus? Also, if Mary's role as "mother" is venerated because of her nurturing role in Jesus' life, then why is Joseph not similarly honored? Doesn't that kind of disrespect the father's role in a child's life? I mean, God was kind of a dead-beat dad for the first bit of Jesus' life, so shouldn't we be honoring Joseph for stepping up to support another "Man"'s child?


Its because according to Catholic Tradition, Mary is the only human born since the Fall, that didn't have original sin.

Its because according to Catholic Tradition, Mary is the only human born since the Fall, that didn't have original sin.
Aha! *lightbulb flashes on above Bottle's head*

That makes perfect sense, in that case. Hell, I would respect somebody who had no nasty imperfections, and I'm not remotely Catholic.

ok im gonna do this for every idiot who i have had to hear say im not catholic i christian.....


Christianity
/ l \
protestant catholic Orthodox
/ \
ect. ect.

If you read the scriptures you will notice that Jesus could never deny the requests of his mother, for he was very close to her. We ask Mary to pray to God for us, we do not pray to Mary as a god.

Even Protestants "pray" to angels for help and comfort, its the same with saints.

What about in Hebrews where it says that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man?

What about Jesus' promises that our prayers to God in His name would be answered?

And which denominations pray to angels?

What about in Hebrews where it says that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man?

What about Jesus' promises that our prayers to God in His name would be answered?

And which denominations pray to angels?
Yeah, now there's some more questions:

-If God is all-knowing, doesn't He already know whether or not He's going to answer your prayer? If Mary's vote in your favor changed His mind, wouldn't that mean that He wasn't all-knowing to begin with, since He didn't know she was going to support you?

-If God loves all humans, and wants what is best for us, then won't He do what is best for us regardless of our prayers? In other words, if you deserve God's help, and if God always makes sure we get what we deserve (both the good and the bad) why would Mary need to convince God to help you?

-If Mary was born without sin, then why would God like her better than all the people who were born WITH sin but manage to overcome it (even if they couldn't completely wash it away)? I mean, a baby doesn't really DO anything to determine how it's born, so should Mary really get credit for being "sinless" if she was just born that way? Isn't that a bit like "spiritual racism," if you are giving other humans less value because they weren't lucky enough to be born sinless? That's like blaming people for having been born black, or mentally disabled, or something...they didn't have any control over such things, so why devalue them?

-Since God was the one who (presumably) made Mary be born without sin, why would He put any particular stock in what she has to say?

Yeah, now there's some more questions:

-If God is all-knowing, doesn't He already know whether or not He's going to answer your prayer? If Mary's vote in your favor changed His mind, wouldn't that mean that He wasn't all-knowing to begin with, since He didn't know she was going to support you?

-If God loves all humans, and wants what is best for us, then won't He do what is best for us regardless of our prayers? In other words, if you deserve God's help, and if God always makes sure we get what we deserve (both the good and the bad) why would Mary need to convince God to help you?


I know this one---the reason why Jesus gave the "Lord's prayer"--he said it's because God already knows what you need, so you don't need to go through a laundry list---the prayer is just to put you in touch with God, and remind you of who he is and why you are looking up to him...

I know this one---the reason why Jesus gave the "Lord's prayer"--he said it's because God already knows what you need, so you don't need to go through a laundry list---the prayer is just to put you in touch with God, and remind you of who he is and why you are looking up to him...
But if God wants us to be connected to Him, and to remember why we like Him so much, why doesn't He just chat us up? If He wants us to remember why we respect Him, why doesn't He talk through burning bushes and send swarms of locusts like He used to? You have to admit, that stuff would work about 100 times better for the vast majority of people.

What about in Hebrews where it says that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man?

What about Jesus' promises that our prayers to God in His name would be answered?

And which denominations pray to angels?

Bible says a lotta things mate.

One word question for ya... real quick:

Dinosaurs.

Yeah, now there's some more questions:

-If God is all-knowing, doesn't He already know whether or not He's going to answer your prayer? If Mary's vote in your favor changed His mind, wouldn't that mean that He wasn't all-knowing to begin with, since He didn't know she was going to support you?

-If God loves all humans, and wants what is best for us, then won't He do what is best for us regardless of our prayers? In other words, if you deserve God's help, and if God always makes sure we get what we deserve (both the good and the bad) why would Mary need to convince God to help you?

-If Mary was born without sin, then why would God like her better than all the people who were born WITH sin but manage to overcome it (even if they couldn't completely wash it away)? I mean, a baby doesn't really DO anything to determine how it's born, so should Mary really get credit for being "sinless" if she was just born that way? Isn't that a bit like "spiritual racism," if you are giving other humans less value because they weren't lucky enough to be born sinless? That's like blaming people for having been born black, or mentally disabled, or something...they didn't have any control over such things, so why devalue them?

-Since God was the one who (presumably) made Mary be born without sin, why would He put any particular stock in what she has to say?


Since those first two questions get into more theological grounds, that I don't really feel qualified to answer, yes I'm woosening out ;) , I'll just answer the last two. For number three it omes down to Tradition again which says that in addititon to being born with out sin, she never comitted a sin, as for showing respect to those that manage to overcome sin, thats why we have saints. And finaly it was necesary to ask because she had free will.

Mary was only brought up to a small degree in the Bible and in Romans it says that those who accept Christ into their lives are all saints and thus I am a saint.

There is no mentioning of "Pope" in the Bible and the so called "direct connection" he has to God is something all of us have, we can all talk to God and He will speak to us if it is His Will.

Great point, the statues, while pretty, are nothing to worship as they are just that; statues. The Catholic Church has the rosary beads, the statues, the paintings and stuff, all of that is religious junk. What you need is the Bible and your faith. That's all.

The Catholic Church is deceptive, it is cruel in it's ways. It tells you that the only way into Heaven is doing what they say. They have 7 things that must be completed as well and if you don't do what the Church says you go to Hell. This is true BS. The Bible says you will get to Heaven if you accept Christ, that simple, and none of the Catholic Church actions actually involve that. Moreso they do infant baptism while every baptism mentioned in the Bible is older, including Christ. The jist is that baptism should wait untill the baptisee knows the Gospel. Lastly there is communion. According to the Trent II Councel (Spanish Inquisition) a person who viewed the communion wafer as representative of Christ would be burned. The Catholic Church dictates that the wafer is the actual body of Christ. The priest is basically pulling Christ out of Heaven every time he does Communion when it is clear that the bread Christ broke was representative of His body. He didn't stick His arm in Peter's face and say, "Nibble away, bud." Avoid the Catholic Church, it will lead you right to Hell and that is sad when a person is truly seeking God.

Mary was only brought up to a small degree in the Bible and in Romans it says that those who accept Christ into their lives are all saints and thus I am a saint.

There is no mentioning of "Pope" in the Bible and the so called "direct connection" he has to God is something all of us have, we can all talk to God and He will speak to us if it is His Will.

Great point, the statues, while pretty, are nothing to worship as they are just that; statues. The Catholic Church has the rosary beads, the statues, the paintings and stuff, all of that is religious junk. What you need is the Bible and your faith. That's all.

The Catholic Church is deceptive, it is cruel in it's ways. It tells you that the only way into Heaven is doing what they say. They have 7 things that must be completed as well and if you don't do what the Church says you go to Hell. This is true BS. The Bible says you will get to Heaven if you accept Christ, that simple, and none of the Catholic Church actions actually involve that. Moreso they do infant baptism while every baptism mentioned in the Bible is older, including Christ. The jist is that baptism should wait untill the baptisee knows the Gospel. Lastly there is communion. According to the Trent II Councel (Spanish Inquisition) a person who viewed the communion wafer as representative of Christ would be burned. The Catholic Church dictates that the wafer is the actual body of Christ. The priest is basically pulling Christ out of Heaven every time he does Communion when it is clear that the bread Christ broke was representative of His body. He didn't stick His arm in Peter's face and say, "Nibble away, bud." Avoid the Catholic Church, it will lead you right to Hell and that is sad when a person is truly seeking God.

:rolleyes: and you accuse Catholics of being misleading

the communion wafer transubstantiates, the same way it did when jesus broke bread and gave communion the first time. he didn't lop off an arm and grind it into bread

i went to baylor u. a predominately protestant school. while i was there, i joined the cathoilic student center and went to RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults). there, i met a girl named Zo (at least, i think that's her name...) she had been born and raised baptist, and went to a catholic mass when she joined baylor. surprisingly (for her family) she converted! when she gave a reason, she said that our mass focused more on jesus and god than the services she was used to. don't know if this was relevant, but...

But if God wants us to be connected to Him, and to remember why we like Him so much, why doesn't He just chat us up? If He wants us to remember why we respect Him, why doesn't He talk through burning bushes and send swarms of locusts like He used to? You have to admit, that stuff would work about 100 times better for the vast majority of people.

That stuff has never kept people's minds on God. Remember, the swarms of locusts and other curses on Egypt only temporarily changed Pharoah's mind. As soon as the curse was lifted, he wanted the Hebrews back. Even after his own son was killed, he still sent his army after the departing former slaves.

And as soon as Moses left the camp, what did the people do? Make an idol, a golden calf, to worship their old Egyptian gods. This while sitting at the base of the mountain where God was, in person.

So, if the stories in the Bible don't work for you, as Jesus said, it won't matter if someone comes back from the dead and tells you, you still won't believe.

And of course, he is correct. We would just find some explanation for the phenomenon, and disregard any words of wisdom from the walking corpse...that, and shoot it in the head to keep it from eating us! ;)

Bible says a lotta things mate.

One word question for ya... real quick:

Dinosaurs.

Book of Job, chapters 40 and 41-see dinosaurs within, aka "behemoth" and "leviathan". Read those descriptions. Those are not crocodiles or elephants or hippopotami. Those are dinosaurs. :D

Book of Job, chapters 40 and 41-see dinosaurs within, aka "behemoth" and "leviathan". Read those descriptions. Those are not crocodiles or elephants or hippopotami. Those are dinosaurs. :D

Thank you for that- was hoping you would say that....

So then, Dinosaurs alive at the time of man? According to Job that'd be so! Thats a newsflash for history!

Listen: The Bible is a book, written by man... for man. Take it whatever way you want- but it is NOT written by a deity. As such, it has the potential to be flawed if taken LITERALLY. Take it as a philosophical guide to living a better life. A socio economic guide to the Middle East in that era, or a historical record of power sruggles between rival kingoms- at best ;)

Okay.

We don not worphip the statues. We look for inspirations in the statues.

When we pray to saints, we ask them to pray for us. As in "put in a good word". We also pray to/for the souls in Purgatory.
Saints are simply people who go to heaven.

I'm really getting sick of all the Anti-Christian (not as in antichrist) propaganda plaguing the internet.

That might be a little harsh, but I am.

You might call it "free speech", but I will stand by propaganda.

However my bottom line points are:

1 - Only Jesus can save us. Only Jesus can stand between us and God's Judgement - Mary and the Saints CANNOT talk to God on our behalf, although I will admit that they can pray for us, but there is still no point in praying to them to pray for us.

No argument with your main premise.

The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . .(T)hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped." (Lumen gentium 49; cf. 1 Timothy 2:5)
"Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life." (St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers)
"I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth." (St. Therese of Lisieux)

Again, everything is done through Christ. Almost all Protestants will ask you to pray for them if they are going through troubles. But, why should you pray for them? If they are already praying to Christ, isn't that enough? Does your own personal intercession mean more to God than their's would alone?

The critical step is believing that people in heaven want to pray for those still on earth. Anything we ask the saints to do can only be accomplished through God's will, and most of us do believe that Heaven *is* perfect communion with God. Perfect communion; perfect prayer. Other than the Hail Mary (which only asks Mary to pray for us), what are the most famous Catholic prayers? There's the "Our Father", which focuses entirely on God. There is also:

All glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be:
world without end.
Amen.

Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: grant us your peace.

Dying, you destroyed our deaths.
Rising, you restored our life.
Lord Jesus, come in glory.

Prayers to the saints use the old meaning of the word prayer, which is asking. For example, "I pray thee, Eddy, could you stop by the store and pick up some eggs?" We ask the saints to pray to God because they are in communion with God; they excel at prayer. We ask them to use the powers God gives them, especially in the case of angels. Above all, everything comes from God, and the Catholic Church knows this.

2 - If you wish to be a good christian, look to the Bible and Jesus, not to the Pope.

Again, when Christ ascended at the beginning of Acts (a great book to read, I repeat), he did not leave a Bible; he left a Church. Church members wrote the Bible, and Church Councils were guided by Christ to decide which books made it into the Bible. The Bible has no table of contents within it. Without faith in the Church leaders that approved the books, what basis is there for faith that the books are God's word? The Bible is the God-inspired result of the early Church, not the cause of it. What did Christians believe before the Biblical books were written?

What are Paul's letter to the Romans, Corinthians, and all the rest? He is a member of the church, having come to a concensus with the leaders in Jerusalem (as Acts tells us), instructing other Christian communities on what they are doing wrong. All throughout the New Testament, the apostles and other church authorities are instructing communities on what it means to be Christian. This is church leadership!

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.

For there is one God.
There is also one mediator between God and the human race,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
who gave himself as ransom for all.

This was the testimony at the proper time. For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying, teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

And, as Paul writes to the leaders in Corinth:

And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us.

And so much more. These next three quotes are said from Jesus directly to his apostles:

Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church . . . Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.

Note the last quote. With the Holy Spirit, Christ gave his apostles the power to forgive sins!

3 - To the person who said that Jesus had to obey his mother because he was so close to her - Jesus is God and therefore answers to no one.

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

But not all people know how to pray effectively:

You ask but do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

By virtue of being in heaven, in full communion with God, Mary and the other saints cannot ask wrongly, for their own passions.

Also, it DOES help to pray with others:
Again, (amen,) I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

When we pray with Mary, when we pray with Michael the Archangel, when we pray with our dead grandmother in heaven we *are* "two or three gathered together". The saints' prayers are pure, and they combine with ours, and all the prayers go to the one intercessor: Christ.

Thank you. I'm glad you could do this without losing it like I did.

That's a lie and to quote my grandmother "lies make baby Jesus cry". Liber-Ordu, Anglicans, Catholic Light (some kind of American decendant of Catholicsm I think) are a couple that come mind, that all venerate the communion of saints.

As well Orthodox Christians venerate Mary the Mother of Jesus and venerate the saints.
It is very common for Orthodox Christian churches to be named for the Virgin Mary, the Saints, the Holy Spirit, etc as well as for Jesus Christ.

I find something disquieting about some of my Protestant acquaintances who refer to themselves as Christian besides the impression I have that many of them regard us Catholics as non-Christian and that is that they don't even respect the Virgin Mary at ALL! in fact Muslims have more veneration for the Virgin Mary than many of the Protestant community, and that is so so sad! That a religion which is not Christian would respect the Mother of Jesus more than some Christians should be a reproach!
Not only was Mary the Mother of God, but since humans come in two sexes, there are special needs of women, socially and spiritually as far as an exemplary figure, which the Virgin Mary fills.
Jesus was a man, as well as being God, and as a man could not set an example on some issues specific to women, eg, female modesty, the proper place of a woman in the home, the special place of mothers as teachers, and leaders, the special place of women as wives etc.
So much of this example being thrown away is very bad for Western culture.
The Communion of the Saints is a part of Christian Catholic doctrine and a very real part of Orthodox teaching as well. It's not just the remarkable figures of the church, it's any person who dies in good standing as a Christian believer.
Saints, and the Virgin Mary are NOT prayed to. We ask their intercession in difficult situations.
Back in an earlier era, they were likened to a friend in the court of a king, you would not go straight to the king for most problems, but if you had a friend in this court, you would ask that person to intercede for you. To go speak to the king on your behalf. Even in modern corporate America, it's not that common for anyone to go straight to the top on any problem.
Asking for intercession then means you are actually asking that saint to pray for you, or that person who hasn't been declared a saint, a beatified person for example.
The Communion of the Saints is a way of illustrateing the ties between Christians alive now and those who have gone before.
I realize that certain abuses in the Church in the Middle Ages caused some people to reject the Church as an institution, excessive tithes, political blunders, and corrupt priests, bishops and even corrupt popes had this effect. That is tragic because Christianity isn't as unified a religion as it could be as a result of this.

By Y'shua Bar Yoseph, this is so full of shit. NO religion has it right, and No religion will EVER get it right! I refused to listen to a bitchass priest tell me what is right and wrong; I'll make up my own mind thank you very much! And as someone that was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, I know that you're barely scratching the surface.

God knows there are many questions the church refuses to answer, and with good reason. "Be not afraid" my ass.

Do you have a letter from the Pope saying that you were excommunicated? Because only the Pope can excommunicate people.

As well Orthodox Christians venerate Mary the Mother of Jesus and venerate the saints.
It is very common for Orthodox Christian churches to be named for the Virgin Mary, the Saints, the Holy Spirit, etc as well as for Jesus Christ.

I find something disquieting about some of my Protestant acquaintances who refer to themselves as Christian besides the impression I have that many of them regard us Catholics as non-Christian and that is that they don't even respect the Virgin Mary at ALL! in fact Muslims have more veneration for the Virgin Mary than many of the Protestant community, and that is so so sad! That a religion which is not Christian would respect the Mother of Jesus more than some Christians should be a reproach!
Not only was Mary the Mother of God, but since humans come in two sexes, there are special needs of women, socially and spiritually as far as an exemplary figure, which the Virgin Mary fills.
Jesus was a man, as well as being God, and as a man could not set an example on some issues specific to women, eg, female modesty, the proper place of a woman in the home, the special place of mothers as teachers, and leaders, the special place of women as wives etc.
So much of this example being thrown away is very bad for Western culture.
The Communion of the Saints is a part of Christian Catholic doctrine and a very real part of Orthodox teaching as well. It's not just the remarkable figures of the church, it's any person who dies in good standing as a Christian believer.
Saints, and the Virgin Mary are NOT prayed to. We ask their intercession in difficult situations.
Back in an earlier era, they were likened to a friend in the court of a king, you would not go straight to the king for most problems, but if you had a friend in this court, you would ask that person to intercede for you. To go speak to the king on your behalf. Even in modern corporate America, it's not that common for anyone to go straight to the top on any problem.
Asking for intercession then means you are actually asking that saint to pray for you, or that person who hasn't been declared a saint, a beatified person for example.
The Communion of the Saints is a way of illustrateing the ties between Christians alive now and those who have gone before.
I realize that certain abuses in the Church in the Middle Ages caused some people to reject the Church as an institution, excessive tithes, political blunders, and corrupt priests, bishops and even corrupt popes had this effect. That is tragic because Christianity isn't as unified a religion as it could be as a result of this.


Thank you, very well stated :)

Mary was only brought up to a small degree in the Bible and in Romans it says that those who accept Christ into their lives are all saints and thus I am a saint.

Saints are anyone who is in heaven. When the Church proclaims someone a saint, it is 99.99something% sure that person is in heaven due to actions on earth, miracles performed after death, and whether all this directs back to Christ. You may very well be secure in your faith and love for Christ and thus know you are a saint, even before you are in heaven. The Church is just very careful in whom it recognizes as saints; hence we have the holiday "All Saints Day" for those who aren't officially recognized.

There is no mentioning of "Pope" in the Bible and the so called "direct connection" he has to God is something all of us have, we can all talk to God and He will speak to us if it is His Will.

No mention of Pope, but there is mention of authority:

From Miletus (Paul) had the presbyters of the church at Ephesus summoned. When they came to him, he addressed them . . . "Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood."

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

That last one was written by Paul, not Christ. We Christians have many fellow guides in Christ, but not everyone is a father. Not everyone is a bishop; not everyone is the Pope (Papa). Christ told us that we are not to call anyone father, but we have to understand that as meaning primary father, ultimate savior, considering the context of Paul's quote. Also read my last post, concerning binding/loosing and forgiving sins.

Great point, the statues, while pretty, are nothing to worship as they are just that; statues. The Catholic Church has the rosary beads, the statues, the paintings and stuff, all of that is religious junk. What you need is the Bible and your faith. That's all.

Icons focus the mind and spirit toward God. Though God the Father has no image, a statue of Jesus reminds us he was a person and had an appearance. The saint statues also remind us of real people who have given themselves completely to the Lord. Rosary beads keep our focus through touch, and paintings keep our minds on the Lord.

Catholicism is incredibly sensory. Sight (paintings, statues), hearing (homilies, prayers), touch (rosary beads, eucharist), smell (incense), taste (eucharist). All of our senses become focused on Christ, helping us keep our focus where it belongs without any distractions.

The Bible says you will get to Heaven if you accept Christ, that simple, and none of the Catholic Church actions actually involve that.

Not so:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name. Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'
"Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."

((A "parable" about sheep and goats, which is much too long for even me to put here!))

((God)) will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek ((ie, non-Jew)). But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Luther took the book of James out of his Bible; most proponents of "faith-alone salvation" fail to recognize the necessity of following his example.

The primary source of "faith-alone" belief, I think, is Galatians:

O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so many things in vain?--if indeed it was in vain. Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law or from faith in what you heard?

Yet, notice the two sections I bolded: two different sets of works. The first works are works "of the law", the Old Covenant, which are done just for the sake of tradition. The second works are deeds that God does among us. We have to allow God to accomplish works through us; it is a vital component of our faith.

Moreso they do infant baptism while every baptism mentioned in the Bible is older, including Christ. The jist is that baptism should wait untill the baptisee knows the Gospel.

Not *every* baptism:

I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.

With this quote, everyone in the "household" *might* have accepted Christ. With the next one . . .

((Lydia)), listened, and the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what Paul was saying. After she and her household had been baptized . . .

. . . it is still possible, but it is suspicious considering that Lydia's entire household was baptized while only she was specifically said to have received the Lord in her heart. With this next verse . . .

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved." So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house. He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once.

. . . the apostles clearly state that the entire household will be saved if the single head of the household accepts Christ. With infant baptism, the parents assert their own belief and their own intentions to raise their child within the Christian belief. Just as those in the early Church brought their households with them to baptism (even those who were too young to understand), so do we.

Lastly there is communion. According to the Trent II Councel (Spanish Inquisition) a person who viewed the communion wafer as representative of Christ would be burned. The Catholic Church dictates that the wafer is the actual body of Christ.

The Spanish Inquisition was a national, Spanish thing. As for belief in the true presence, please read my original post for some of the Biblical justifications for the belief. What is the Biblical justification for *symbolic* presence? When does Jesus or the apostles explain that the whole thing is just representative and therefore not a big deal?

The priest is basically pulling Christ out of Heaven every time he does Communion

No, the transubstantiation makes the bread and wine Christ's body and blood through his one sacrifice on the cross. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, the only sacrifice we must make to God. The cross was when the sacrifice was made. Each time we participate in the Eucharist, we participate in that single sacrifice. It is not recreated over and over again; we are just continually taking part in a single event. It's a difficult concept to grasp; that's why the New Testament pounds on it over and over again.

Jesus sometimes used metaphors. He said things like "I am the gate". He never, however, presented a physical gate to his disciples and said "this is me". His explanation of communion is distinct from anything else he describes, and the apostles remind us over and over again to understand us, emphasizing that bad things will happen if we partake in the sacrifice without that comprehension.

snip

Yes! I completely forgot about the gender issue. :D

I didn't "jump down your throat" for no reason. I did it because of your veiled attack on my faith. Question us? yes. Belittle us with centuries old stereotypes? no. Yes, I'm hostile. I'm hostile to anyone who makes an attack disguised as innocent inquiry. And I could tell you would rather have been nasty. It was apparent from the way you worded your "question". You deserved an answer? granted. You got one. I'm tired of defending my beliefs from fundamentalist attacks. And yes, it is offensive. If you really just wanted to know about Catholicism, you wouldn't have asked flamebaiting questions like "you guys pray to and sing to and worship Mary and the saints, right?" Any Catholic would have been offended by that question. You had the misfortune of crossing paths with a Catholic who wasn't afraid to call you on it. It's also offensive when you refer to yourselves as simply "Christian" because it does imply that you think anyone who isn't of your particular denomination isn't a Christian.
Non-Denomination Christians ussualy just respond to themselves as Christian while Catholics, Mormons, JW's and many other denominations refer to themselves as their denomination. So YES your response was unnessarily harsh and completely uncalled for. Grow up and get some thicker skin or you are doomed in the real world!

First of all let me just explain a few things:

(1) For 16 years of my life I was a devout Roman Catholic...

(2) For a while now I have been attending Evangelical services as well as visiting other denominations.

With that out the way, I would like to pose a few questions to any Roman Catholics reading this:

(1) Why do you place significance on Mary and the Saints?

(2) Why do you follow the Pope?

(3) Why do people build statues of Mary and the Saints?

I recognise that not all Roman Cathloics do the three things I mentioned.

I am not looking for a blood-bath of an argument - I merely wish to hear the response...

First I'd like to apologize for jumping into this thread without first reading the other replies so if this is redundant please ignore.

In response to both question # 1 and 3, my opinion on why Roman Catholics created a system of patron saints is influenced by my observations of the practice of Christianity in Brazil and Cuba. Africans who were brought to the Americas as slaves were able to continue to practice their polytheistic religious beliefs by worshipping their different gods as different saints. Roman culture was also polytheistic so a monotheistic Judaic belief was foreign to them, thus they created a hierarchy of saints that matched their hierarchy of Greek borrowed gods.

Answer to question 2: He supposedly serves the office that was consigned upon Simon "The Rock" (Not to be confused with Duane Johnson)