NationStates Jolt Archive

Let's think about it.

God was created by human minds because humans could not control their environment, or their destiny. But now, as technology advances, we will get to the stage where we can control our destiny and our world. This advance will (seemingly) undermine the reason for God, and therefore religion. This would cause religion to collapse - the fear of this event coming to pass has caused many religious figures to become suspicious of science, because it explains things without God, and then goes on to try and make humans into new Gods (on a smaller scale).

Religion likes to say that the universe is ordered as God said it would be. However, the Universe is not ordered - nor is it chaotic. It is an ordered chaos, or a chaotic order, where rules are not always what we think rules whould be, or how rules should behave. This fact (if we can call such a circumstance a fact) discomforts religion.

But we will never loose God, because we are human. Though in many ways we are heterogenous, we all share a few common ideals - the most critical of them being the desire to beleive in some sort of higher being that is able to control the Universe in some way or other.

We could very well become Gods' in the future, with weather control, ability to curea all diseases, the ability to travel at supra-light speed etc etc - but we will never loose the desire for some sort of higher being, a fundamental force that can exert some sort of contol over a Universe that may prove impossible to comprehend even at the peak of our evolution.

Whadd'ya think?

EDIT: Yes, I have too much time on my hands. But thinking is liberating. It is the closest thing we can get to being God - though the physical realisation of our thoughts cannot yet be created by ourselves in many circumstances.

If we propose the question why God, I propose the question why you?

Why me? Why you? Why us? Why anything?

So many questions from so many people. I wanted to trigger a debate, but not really on the ethics of God. The debate I would like is - is it really right/moral for humans to become Gods through science? We know we can, we are already reading the very base blocks of life themselves, and changing them. We have already torn free of our planet and sent people to spend a long time in a place where they should not be able to exist - and only can exist because we created a mini-world for them.

God is wonderful, but when we become God, that wonder becomes accessible.

Also, I do not appreciate any derogatory remarks about any faith. Though I am of no real religious distinction, I do feel strongly that one should respect people of faith, as they search out the answer to the universal question through a different path. Religion may well be the 'opium of the people', but it has triggered some deep thoughts whose relevance many only now become apparent.

What is the Universal Question?...







Why?

Human beings are pack animals. We like living in groups, and we prefer to believe there is a higher being taking care of us than saying we are all alone.

Of course, which God are you talking about?

Human beings are pack animals. We like living in groups, and we prefer to believe there is a higher being taking care of us than saying we are all alone.

Of course, which God are you talking about?

Just the general concept of God... Not one faith's idea of God over another.

Yeah, that sums it up. Though, the number of constants in this universe is quite mind boggling.

And the number of variables even more so :)

Since you asked, I think you're all retarded. To question the existence of God, is to question one's own existence. For without God there could be nothing else, for the the universe was created ex nihilo.

Since you asked, I think you're all retarded. To question the existence of God, is to question one's own existence. For without God there could be nothing else, for the the universe was created ex nihilo.

Whislt I agree with your point, I must ask you not to use such termonology - remember we must love our enemies and neighbours equally as Jesus loves saint and sinner alike.

God was created to make life easier, example:
-"Why does it rain?"
-"Uhmmm"
-"..."
-"It was god"
-"Who is god?"
-"God lives in the skies(easy to say in a time where there were no airplanes) and he made everything you can see"
-"Oh, ok. So he's really powerfull?"
-"Yup"
-"Great, now I can stop thinking about it and get to farming again, thanks man!"

Later on, god became handy again

-"Hey, you know about that god guy I told you about?"
-"I do, why?"
-"He told me to tell you he wants food"
-"Ok, but I can't bring it to him, he's high in the skies"
-"Ummm, yeah, but I'll give it to him, I know how to"
-"You do? cool, could you show me how?"
-"No it's a secret, if anyone else but me knows, god will kill him"
-"Ok, I don't wanna mess with god!"

For without God there could be nothing else, for the the universe was created ex nihilo.

If there was nothing then where did god come from and better yet how did it create something from nothing?

You know you're right Silver-Wings, I apologize everybody. But at least I got my point across.

You know you're right Silver-Wings, I apologize everybody. But at least I got my point across.
Your point, which contradicts your own religious texts. Your god is said to have "fashioned" the universe. You cannot fashion something from nothing.

Your point, which contradicts your own religious texts. Your god is said to have "fashioned" the universe. You cannot fashion something from nothing.
maybe you can't but I bet God can....

Let's think about it.

God was created by human minds...
You know what? Let's not.

Whenever I've read the bible I've found god to be ever so human.. do any of you understand how futile this debate is? None of you can prove each other wrong and both sides approach this whole thing from a position of dogmatism. Why bother?

Whenever I've read the bible I've found god to be ever so human.. do any of you understand how futile this debate is? None of you can prove each other wrong and both sides approach this whole thing from a position of dogmatism. Why bother?

I would just ignore people's superstitions, live and let live, but the problem is you have a president who invaded Iraq because god told him to. You have nut-cases killing people in the name of Allah. You've judges who think they're getting info from an imaginary deity concerning your guilt or innocence..etc. etc. etc.
So, as futile as this debate may be, I don't feel we can quit.

I would just ignore people's superstitions, live and let live, but the problem is you have a president who invaded Iraq because god told him to. You have nut-cases killing people in the name of Allah. You've judges who think they're getting info from an imaginary deity concerning your guilt or innocence..etc. etc. etc.
So, as futile as this debate may be, I don't feel we can quit.

Whether here or elsewhere, this debate will continue until the end of time.

God is the uncreated first cause, and created everything. Space, time, the universe, quarks, gravity, water, snails, sharks, all from nothing.

The God of the Bible specifically created from nothing, for example, Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
In other words, he did not just rearrange existing materials into new stuff.

And the God of the Bible did it through Jesus Christ, see Colossians 1:16-17 "16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Of course, you can just discuss all this without being specific. But there is a real God, and he gave us his word so that we can read and discover what he is about without having to guess, or go by feelings.

Let's think about it.

God was created by human minds because humans could not control their environment, or their destiny. But now, as technology advances, we will get to the stage where we can control our destiny and our world. This advance will (seemingly) undermine the reason for God, and therefore religion. This would cause religion to collapse - the fear of this event coming to pass has caused many religious figures to become suspicious of science, because it explains things without God, and then goes on to try and make humans into new Gods (on a smaller scale).

Religion likes to say that the universe is ordered as God said it would be. However, the Universe is not ordered - nor is it chaotic. It is an ordered chaos, or a chaotic order, where rules are not always what we think rules whould be, or how rules should behave. This fact (if we can call such a circumstance a fact) discomforts religion.

But we will never loose God, because we are human. Though in many ways we are heterogenous, we all share a few common ideals - the most critical of them being the desire to beleive in some sort of higher being that is able to control the Universe in some way or other.

We could very well become Gods' in the future, with weather control, ability to curea all diseases, the ability to travel at supra-light speed etc etc - but we will never loose the desire for some sort of higher being, a fundamental force that can exert some sort of contol over a Universe that may prove impossible to comprehend even at the peak of our evolution.

Whadd'ya think?

If we propose the question why God, I propose the question why you?

God is the uncreated first cause, and created everything.

But then that does beg the question, if God was the first cause then what cuased him?

But then that does beg the question, if God was the first cause then what cuased him?

Please have another look---as I said, God is the uncreated first cause. That is the definition of God.

If you look at anything/anyone that was created, by definition, that cannot be God. Only an uncreated being can be God, as in the God.

No begging here. :)

Let's think about it.

I have...


God was created by human minds because humans could not control their environment, or their destiny.

Interesting supposition. Though, I equally do not believe you.


But now, as technology advances, we will get to the stage where we can control our destiny and our world.

Another supposition... though in no way true... We do gain more control, but never absolute control. We really have no more control of our ultimate destiny now than we did 100,000 years ago... People are still born, people still die, and we still are destined to be worm-food and fertilizer for pretty flowers...


This advance will (seemingly) undermine the reason for God, and therefore religion.

Yes, it does "seemingly" do.... Though it doesn't actually do...


This would cause religion to collapse - the fear of this event coming to pass has caused many religious figures to become suspicious of science, because it explains things without God, and then goes on to try and make humans into new Gods (on a smaller scale).

Hmm, this isn't even logically connected to the statement it was structurally connected to. Religion has no collapsed in the face of science... And science does not seek to "explain things without God"... It seeks to "explain things" period...


Religion likes to say that the universe is ordered as God said it would be. However, the Universe is not ordered - nor is it chaotic. It is an ordered chaos, or a chaotic order, where rules are not always what we think rules whould be, or how rules should behave. This fact (if we can call such a circumstance a fact) discomforts religion.

Religion says that the universe is ordered by God.... "order" and "chaos" are relative terms and have no quatifiable aspects to their operation. Compex systems are ordered chaos.... but and ordered chaos is still an "Order" and therefore creates no logical connection to disproving the "order" that is hypothetically placed.


But we will never lose God, because we are human. Though in many ways we are heterogenous, we all share a few common ideals - the most critical of them being the desire to beleive in some sort of higher being that is able to control the Universe in some way or other.

Maybe.... Course, maybe this "Belief" is something important... It has, afterall, gotten us where we are today.... Maybe this belief is "wired" into us (natural revelation).


We could very well become Gods' in the future, with weather control, ability to curea all diseases, the ability to travel at supra-light speed etc etc - but we will never loose the desire for some sort of higher being, a fundamental force that can exert some sort of contol over a Universe that may prove impossible to comprehend even at the peak of our evolution.

Well, it's interesting that this "Higher being", at least in Judeo-Christian beliefs is an infinite being, never actually "reachable" in our finite sense... No matter how advanced we become, we are not at His level... But then again, none of those advancements effectively make us, or bring us closer to this God.... regardless how large the finite becomes, it is still infinitely smaller than the infinite itself...


Whadd'ya think?

I think you might have too much time on your hands...

If we propose the question why God, I propose the question why you?

Thanx, Chris. Exactly. Why us? Why me?

We are the created ones, not him.

Colossians 1 again:"12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"

Being a Bahai, is fail to see what all the fuss is about. One of the Principles of the Faith is the Unity of Science and Religion. This isn't seen as something which has to be compelled somehow, but rather as and admirable goal which will ineveitably reached far in the future when we as a race understand far more about our world and ourselves.

Whenever I've read the bible I've found god to be ever so human.. do any of you understand how futile this debate is? None of you can prove each other wrong and both sides approach this whole thing from a position of dogmatism. Why bother?

Why should anyone be proven wrong? If someone just makes up a story, you probaly won't believe him/her, right? (unless he/she or the story are convincing enough). Some person made up God and there's never been any proof that his story wasn't made up... Using that knowledge, i think it's safe to say it was just fiction and lot's of people bought it.

Your point, which contradicts your own religious texts. Your god is said to have "fashioned" the universe. You cannot fashion something from nothing.

nor can nothing fashion itself into something. The original post uses a huge assumption as its premise and then attempts to create a line of logic from it. There is no proof that God was created by the minds of men.

Lol so many unusuals questions because even if we guess the right thing we won't know it bcz i don't think were gonna be alivewhen well see this "god" if theres really ... my opinion is that the humans created god not the opposite. God is a reason for ignorent to follow rules, to respect some rules exemple:do not steal, do not kill. Religion is used by idiots to controls naive ppl

maybe im wrong but it is my opinion

im athe.

I have...



Interesting supposition. Though, I equally do not believe you.



Another supposition... though in no way true... We do gain more control, but never absolute control. We really have no more control of our ultimate destiny now than we did 100,000 years ago... People are still born, people still die, and we still are destined to be worm-food and fertilizer for pretty flowers...



Yes, it does "seemingly" do.... Though it doesn't actually do...



Hmm, this isn't even logically connected to the statement it was structurally connected to. Religion has no collapsed in the face of science... And science does not seek to "explain things without God"... It seeks to "explain things" period...



Religion says that the universe is ordered by God.... "order" and "chaos" are relative terms and have no quatifiable aspects to their operation. Compex systems are ordered chaos.... but and ordered chaos is still an "Order" and therefore creates no logical connection to disproving the "order" that is hypothetically placed.



Maybe.... Course, maybe this "Belief" is something important... It has, afterall, gotten us where we are today.... Maybe this belief is "wired" into us (natural revelation).



Well, it's interesting that this "Higher being", at least in Judeo-Christian beliefs is an infinite being, never actually "reachable" in our finite sense... No matter how advanced we become, we are not at His level... But then again, none of those advancements effectively make us, or bring us closer to this God.... regardless how large the finite becomes, it is still infinitely smaller than the infinite itself...



I think you might have too much time on your hands...

If you are a woman, I love you. If you are a man... I..love you, man.

Lol so many unusuals questions because even if we guess the right thing we won't know it bcz i don't think were gonna be alivewhen well see this "god" if theres really ... my opinion is that the humans created god not the opposite. God is a reason for ignorent to follow rules, to respect some rules exemple:do not steal, do not kill. Religion is used by idiots to controls naive ppl

maybe im wrong but it is my opinion

im athe.

long before I found God, or He found me to be more accurate, I followed the rules of not stealing and not killing. I am not in any way "controlled" by religion. Your reasoning on ignorance is, in fact, quite ignorant.

here we go again.. im not rying to have a go but who said god crated the universe? answer some dude in a book
who said god exists? answer-some dude in a book.

i do belive in a higer power but not as decribed as in any religius text as they tend to be connected with breaking there own rules they set.. IE: tho shalt not kill!!!!
there is no person who can deny the FACT all religions lie to become more holyer than thou. an now for some light humer...
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/268440

as they say...God did not create man...man created God.

It is (if you believe in science) a scientific fact that you cannot create nor destroy matter. Period. If there was nothing where did God come from? Why do religious people always dodge this question? And if there is a God, why does he need us to worship him/her/it? Is God insecure? Does God need followers to make him/her/it feel like they're not alone? How do you explain the dinosaurs? Where did all the people in the whole Cain and Able story come from?

If any religious person can answer these questions LOGICALLY without dodging them, i'd be highly surprised. Until then I think I'll continue to be an athiest and continue my denial of god. And besides, if there is a god, as long as we all live the way he/she/it says, we should go to heaven. powerful and all-knowing beings such as God surely wouldnt be so human like that they would say "You dont believe in me? Burn in hell!" now would they? Surely even those that do believe in god can understand that? But then again, even if they can, i'm sure they'll dodge the questions and prove once again that science can explain everything in this world, and saying "God did it" will NOT work anymore.

Funny, science has basicly disproved god.

1. God created adam and eve, and giraffes and crap
Um, there is something called evolution..

2. God created the earth
Big Bang..

3. People worship god
What has god ever done for you, besides give support, which is really you just beliving in something.

God has never shown himself, just a bunch of totally untrustworthy sources saying that he "spoke to them".

Some guy who performed magic tricks told EVERYONE he was the son of god, and showed his magical prowess in order to prove it. People back in the day were a stupid bunch. If Jesus wanted to he could have if he wanted to claimed he was god himself, or better yet, if he was demented he could have pointed to a flower and said "That is god!" and the stupid people would gather round and praise it.

It just happened that he was an impressionable youth who was told by his mum "you are god's son". Hell, I'm sure if David Copperfield went back now, he could get people to believe that a piece of stone was god too.

My idea is that religion is a man-made concept. The mostly likely candidate for a truly false religion -- ISLAM. Doesn't make any sense that any God would call for the deaths of women and children simply because they are "non-believers." Dos'nt make sense at all.

A thought which has kept me amused for a few years now is the fact that it is incredibly hard to prove that someting like a god (that is, an incorporeal being) does not exist. The idea of trying to prove that something doesn't exist is kind of perplexing. Generally, you try to prove something does exist, by testing things that it does effect. Take Gravity, or, to be more controversial (apparantly, although I can't remember a time when I didn't accept evolution as a very sensible fact) Evolution for example.
In order to prove it does exist, you first prove that predecessors to it exist - Natural Selection, or more easily, breeding for traits, for example. Take an experiment conducted with wolves a few years ago for example. I don't remember the specifics, as it was a very long time ago, but A group of scientists studied a pack of wolves, allowing themselves to mingle (safely) with the beasties. Gradually, they welcomed them into their station, and rewarded the friendliest ones. I have no idea how long the study went for, but at the end of it, they had some animals who, by blood pure wolf, but by mannerism and even appearance, were becoming steadily more dog.
Anyway. I digress.
With Gravity, it's proven by what it effects - pick up an apple, suspend it in the air with your hand by your head, let go of the apple, and it falls to the ground. Etc, etc.
I don't know of any scientific ways of disproving a phenomenon - most things that need disproving aren't visible all the time, or aren't corporeal to begin with - ESP, Ghosts, Leprechauns (:D).
Anyway. Just to sum up, I'm not arguing for or against God or Gods, I'm presently a very atheist-like fence sitter with her own strange beliefs about life and things like that. I am arguing for evolution and science, but that's not the point I'm making.

I guess my question is whether anyone knows how to scientifically disprove something.

<snip-a-dee-doo>

well, actually, God didn't write the bible, man did. a lot of what was in the bible started as oral tradition, have you ever played chinese whispers? the messages tend to get garbled up, don't they? that's the same with the bible. and let's not forget misinterpretations and there could have also been alterations... it's not always a reliable source. i myself believe in god, partly because i was brought up to do so and partly because i just do... it's not very easily explained. any of it. and i agree that the concept of the whole thing might seem a little far-fetched... but then again, so does a lot of things. i respect your opinion... actually, probably not. okay, i respect that you have an opinion, but you have to at least acknowledge that you have no way of truly knowing if god doesn't exist.... unless of course, he told you himself that he didn't exist....

My idea is that religion is a man-made concept. The mostly likely candidate for a truly false religion -- ISLAM. Doesn't make any sense that any God would call for the deaths of women and children simply because they are "non-believers." Dos'nt make sense at all.

Oh, religion has to be a man-made concept. But it's also possible that believing in something makes it real enough to matter.

But I don't think you should speak against Islam just because some terrorist extremist groups are severely mentally retarded. Islam is a religion as harmless as any other. Don't lets forget the Crusades, a Catholic disaster (of a relative scale) far worse than anything Islamic extremist minorities have caused in the past four years or so. Catholics once terrorised helpless farmers, raped women, killed children, captured soldiers, tortured them in ways truly barbaric... the truth is, any religion, indeed, anything written down can be interpreted to mean what the reader wants, or what they need it to say at the time.
While it is tragic, don't tar innocent followers of Islam with the same brush as terrorists, please. I'm not Islam, I'm Catholic [apparantly], and while I'm bordering on atheism at the moment, I still believe that every religion deserves respect.

Funny, science has basicly disproved god.

1. God created adam and eve, and giraffes and crap
Um, there is something called evolution..

2. God created the earth
Big Bang..

3. People worship god
What has god ever done for you, besides give support, which is really you just beliving in something.

God has never shown himself, just a bunch of totally untrustworthy sources saying that he "spoke to them".

Some guy who performed magic tricks told EVERYONE he was the son of god, and showed his magical prowess in order to prove it. People back in the day were a stupid bunch. If Jesus wanted to he could have if he wanted to claimed he was god himself, or better yet, if he was demented he could have pointed to a flower and said "That is god!" and the stupid people would gather round and praise it.

It just happened that he was an impressionable youth who was told by his mum "you are god's son". Hell, I'm sure if David Copperfield went back now, he could get people to believe that a piece of stone was god too.

My idea is that religion is a man-made concept. The mostly likely candidate for a truly false religion -- ISLAM. Doesn't make any sense that any God would call for the deaths of women and children simply because they are "non-believers." Dos'nt make sense at all.
Science hasn't disproved every version of god. It has simply shown that many creation myths are wrong.

Science hasn't disproved every version of god. It has simply shown that many creation myths are wrong.

You know, I don't think, even if God does exist (a possibility I am more than willing to consider, by the way) creation stories were ever meant to be true, any more than Father Christmas ever was. They served their purpose when they were needed, and they served them well. Now they exist as beloved relics of the past and as good stories for our children. What the simple science-magics of early shamans and witch-women could not explain, creation stories did. Now that we have science, we don't need to be told how things came to be, we like to find out for ourself. But that doesn't/shouldn't offend or diminish the might and glory of God to those that might believe in him or her.

well, actually, God didn't write the bible, man did. a lot of what was in the bible started as oral tradition, have you ever played chinese whispers? the messages tend to get garbled up, don't they? that's the same with the bible. and let's not forget misinterpretations and there could have also been alterations... it's not always a reliable source. i myself believe in god, partly because i was brought up to do so and partly because i just do... it's not very easily explained. any of it. and i agree that the concept of the whole thing might seem a little far-fetched... but then again, so does a lot of things. i respect your opinion... actually, probably not. okay, i respect that you have an opinion, but you have to at least acknowledge that you have no way of truly knowing if god doesn't exist.... unless of course, he told you himself that he didn't exist....
yes i have played that game an im glad to see you acnowledge the fact the bible was made by man i truly respect u bleve in god as i so do something,
As a concept featuerd in the bible god is disproved by the lack of coherent proof and reliance on ''belife''.
It is my thought that something does exist that quite possibly did make all things howver it baffles me as to why man needs to slap a lable on it name it the presume they can both coominucate an influence the aformentioned power that is,
If i were that power and i created man knowing what pains in the asses mankind would be id ensure that the pluckers could never talk or say anything of relevence untill they solve there petty disputes and evolve into a peacefull species..... unfortunatelty that is far far far off and arguments over wether ''god'' did this and ''god'' did that an ''god'' made my rabbit ill are totaly not helping us become anywhere near that solution so simply put.... DROP THE BIBLE AN ALL OTHER RELIGIUS NONSENCE AND FOLLOW WHAT EVER MADE YOU HAS GIVEN YOU A HEART!!!! its plain.. simple and never never lies its just up to the person whether he/she commits ill thought and deed on anyone

But that doesn't/shouldn't offend or diminish the might and glory of God to those that might believe in him or her.

That also means we shouldn't teach "beliefs" in a classroom that teaches "facts". Religion should really take a backseat to science unless it's concerning philosophy.

That also means we shouldn't teach "beliefs" in a classroom that teaches "facts". Religion should really take a backseat to science unless it's concerning philosophy.

Uh... yes... that's what I believe also... er, have you read my other posts?

Uh... yes... that's what I believe also... er, have you read my other posts?

Unfortunately no, but I'll make sure to do so in the future.

as they say...God did not create man...man created God.

It is (if you believe in science) a scientific fact that you cannot create nor destroy matter. Period. If there was nothing where did God come from? Why do religious people always dodge this question? And if there is a God, why does he need us to worship him/her/it? Is God insecure? Does God need followers to make him/her/it feel like they're not alone? How do you explain the dinosaurs? Where did all the people in the whole Cain and Able story come from?

If any religious person can answer these questions LOGICALLY without dodging them, i'd be highly surprised. Until then I think I'll continue to be an athiest and continue my denial of god. And besides, if there is a god, as long as we all live the way he/she/it says, we should go to heaven. powerful and all-knowing beings such as God surely wouldnt be so human like that they would say "You dont believe in me? Burn in hell!" now would they? Surely even those that do believe in god can understand that? But then again, even if they can, i'm sure they'll dodge the questions and prove once again that science can explain everything in this world, and saying "God did it" will NOT work anymore.

couple problems here. First I'll give you an honest answer. "If there was nothing, where did God come from?" Who knows? We don't know the answer to that any more than scientists know how life started or where all the matter came from to begin with. Dodging questions doesn't prove anything. Science does it all the time. Science has YET to explain where all the matter in the universe came from. How it magically sprang from nothing. Science has YET to come up with anything even close to a hypothesis on how life began. So your statement about science explaining everything in the world doesn't cut it either.

God was created to make life easier, example:
-"Why does it rain?"
-"Uhmmm"
-"..."
-"It was god"
-"Who is god?"
-"God lives in the skies(easy to say in a time where there were no airplanes) and he made everything you can see"
-"Oh, ok. So he's really powerfull?"
-"Yup"
-"Great, now I can stop thinking about it and get to farming again, thanks man!"
Yes, our ancestors were morons. :rolleyes:

Acutally, we are, if we buy that story. :)

Funny, science has basicly disproved god.

1. God created adam and eve, and giraffes and crap
Um, there is something called evolution..

2. God created the earth
Big Bang..

3. People worship god
What has god ever done for you, besides give support, which is really you just beliving in something.

God has never shown himself, just a bunch of totally untrustworthy sources saying that he "spoke to them".

Some guy who performed magic tricks told EVERYONE he was the son of god, and showed his magical prowess in order to prove it. People back in the day were a stupid bunch. If Jesus wanted to he could have if he wanted to claimed he was god himself, or better yet, if he was demented he could have pointed to a flower and said "That is god!" and the stupid people would gather round and praise it.

It just happened that he was an impressionable youth who was told by his mum "you are god's son". Hell, I'm sure if David Copperfield went back now, he could get people to believe that a piece of stone was god too.

My idea is that religion is a man-made concept. The mostly likely candidate for a truly false religion -- ISLAM. Doesn't make any sense that any God would call for the deaths of women and children simply because they are "non-believers." Dos'nt make sense at all.

The big bang is a process. Yes, it is true that the Earth came from that, but the Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe. the matter of the universe came from somewhere. It didn't "pop" out of nothing.

That also means we shouldn't teach "beliefs" in a classroom that teaches "facts". Religion should really take a backseat to science unless it's concerning philosophy.

well here we go again. Evolution, the Big Bang, and Gravity...none of these are facts. They are theories. So the classroom teaches theories. And since what the classroom teaches is limited, it will always give rise to questions it can't answer which ultimately will always lead the discussion to beliefs. So you're not likely to get beliefs out of the equation.

The big bang is a process. Yes, it is true that the Earth came from that, but the Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe. the matter of the universe came from somewhere. It didn't "pop" out of nothing.
PResuming the Big Bang thing actually took place, it did create the universe. Our universe wasn't there before it happened. If you find the big bang theory plausible (which I myself do), then it's utterly pointless to talk about "before". Time is a dimension of our universe. And as it happens, science itself will never be the answer. It simply can't be applied to things beyond out universe, regardless of whether it's supernatural entities, or pure mechanics.

Saying "it didn't pop out from nothing", is a completely unfounded statement. And you'll never have any sort of basis for making the claim - at least not a scientific one.

"Evolution, the Big Bang, and Gravity...none of these are facts. They are theories" - How very true. They'll never be facts, but the throries are none the less based on factual observation. That's more than any religion have ever been.

As most people who actually bother to learn about science know, a theory is a cohesive explanations of known facts. A scientifically valid theory is one that has been tested and not found to disagree with the known facts it relates to.

For why god? I take the most logical option that, until evidence of existance is shown, claims of such existance are unfounded and I cannot assent to them. The same goes for faeries, invisible pink unicorns and round squares.

well, actually, God didn't write the bible, man did. a lot of what was in the bible started as oral tradition, have you ever played chinese whispers? the messages tend to get garbled up, don't they? that's the same with the bible.
Have you ever been to a folk concert in the park? The songs may be 50-60 years old, but you can be sitting beside people both young and old who can sing along with them word for word. Spot on. That's the same with oral traditions.

Science hasn't disproved every version of god. It has simply shown that many creation myths are wrong.
Rather, it has shown that the myths are not to be literally interpreted.

As a concept featuerd in the bible god is disproved by the lack of coherent proof and reliance on ''belife''.
Reliance on belief does not in itself disprove anything.

Have you ever been to a folk concert in the park? The songs may be 50-60 years old, but you can be sitting beside people both young and old who can sing along with them word for word. Spot on. That's the same with oral traditions.

well, you see, there's quite a difference between 50-60 years and 500-600 years.....

Since you asked, I think you're all retarded. To question the existence of God, is to question one's own existence. For without God there could be nothing else, for the the universe was created ex nihilo.

SO then I ask you, who or what created "god"? If, as you seem to believe, there would be no world or anything without God, then where did GOd come from? WHat created God? Why should I believe in someone/thing that will allow things like the Hollocost, 911, and the perfect flower to all exsist at the same time?
All of the above plus that fact that any organized religion requires me to think exactly like they do or burn in hell is why I don't believe in the concept of a "God".

well, you see, there's quite a difference between 50-60 years and 500-600 years.....
Well, you see, the thing about oral traditions is that they are passed along from generation to generation, not leaping centuries.

Well, you see, the thing about oral traditions is that they are passed along from generation to generation, not leaping centuries.

i know :rolleyes: .....

In 50 or 60 years it is extremely plausable that the authors of the songs would still be alive. It isn't in the case of the bible. Oral tradition proves nothing. You can't say for certain that the story hasn't changed.

In 50 or 60 years it is extremely plausable that the authors of the songs would still be alive. It isn't in the case of the bible. Oral tradition proves nothing. You can't say for certain that the story hasn't changed.
And yet, the songs never die.

He can't say, with this example, that the story has changed.

And yet, the songs never die.

He can't say, with this example, that the story has changed.

No I can't. What is your point?

as they say...God did not create man...man created God.

It is (if you believe in science) a scientific fact that you cannot create nor destroy matter. Period. If there was nothing where did God come from? Why do religious people always dodge this question? And if there is a God, why does he need us to worship him/her/it? Is God insecure? Does God need followers to make him/her/it feel like they're not alone? How do you explain the dinosaurs? Where did all the people in the whole Cain and Able story come from?

Energy (and matter) can neither be created nor destroyed... But can only change from one form to another...

However, this only deals with observational criteria INSIDE our system, and not that which is external to it... (View Quantum Theory regarding the First Law)...

Firstly... there was never, effectively "nothing".... God is "something"... However, at a point there was no "universe" as we know it, and neither were their the laws you allude to... Such is a PRODUCT of the universe's formation; but not completely bound by it. AKA, during the big-bang... There was no "First Law", gravity, nuclear and electro-magnetism were not seperate forces... IT was in fact, for all intense purposes, outside of our present realm of scientific understanding...

God doesn't "need" us to worship Him, he requires it of us....

The dinosaurs were part of God's overal "creation" (in quotes because I'm not a literal creationist; I'm an evolutionary creationist)... Which died out in a past catastrophy.

And all the people in the Cain story (post Able), came from the world around...


If any religious person can answer these questions LOGICALLY without dodging them, i'd be highly surprised. Until then I think I'll continue to be an athiest and continue my denial of god. And besides, if there is a god, as long as we all live the way he/she/it says, we should go to heaven. powerful and all-knowing beings such as God surely wouldnt be so human like that they would say "You dont believe in me? Burn in hell!" now would they?

Except this one requires belief... So by not believing you are automatically not living the way "he/she/it" says to....


Surely even those that do believe in god can understand that? But then again, even if they can, i'm sure they'll dodge the questions and prove once again that science can explain everything in this world, and saying "God did it" will NOT work anymore.

Except Science and Religion are not seperate entities to many of us.... Many of us have both in connection, and derive answers from both... They aren't a contending force, and there is no "battle" between the two....

No I can't. What is your point?
Not you, him.

Have you ever been to a folk concert in the park? The songs may be 50-60 years old, but you can be sitting beside people both young and old who can sing along with them word for word. Spot on. That's the same with oral traditions.

Oral traditions maybe, but the Bible is a written text that's over a thousand years old. There are no remnants today of the origional version, of that I can assure you. In fact, the thing has been translated, re-translated (a process which changes the meaning of words to an amazing degree), re-written (yes. Re-written. The Church was such a huge political power in the Middle Ages, you can't possibly believe that it was never changed to benefit Cardinals, even the Pope. I'm sure it was "edited" many a time.)
Besides, Oral Traditions do eventually dissapear or change drastically once the line of people who know it is broken or dies out. And due to the ammount of culling, religious wars, and the simple progression of time, there is no way that that hasn't happened. Also, don't forget that 50-60 year old folk songs are not only around 20 times younger than the bible, but also that 50-60 years ago, things were well doccumented. It'd be easy to trace down the exact original words to those songs.

Wow. You athiests are very naive.

Ok, First thing you must understand is that you should STOP CONSIDERING GOD A PERSON. God is an all powerful force that can do ANYTHING! How you people define God is not exactly the real definition.

Second, everyone gives the same argument of you can't make something from nothing. Now by using the definition of God, you will realize that God can make something from nothing? Why? Because God can do anything and everything!

Third, most of you atheists are doing nothing but proving Christianity wrong (which I believe to be the most flawed religion in the world). All evolution vs. Adam and Eve thing is related to Christianity. There is no where in any other religion where it says something like that. The Church made the whole Science vs. Religion. Other religions like Judaism and Hinduism just simply adapt. Those religions embrace the connection between science and religion instead of pulling them apart.

Fourthly, I will now prove God's existence (or attempt to, depends on what you want to believe). Take your keyboard for example. You press the key.

Why did a letter appear on the screen?

1. Because you pressed the key with that specific letter.

But why did that key make the letter on the screen?

2. Because by pressing it down, you completed the circuit which gave you the letter (or something like that).

But why did pressing it down complete a circuit?

3. Because electricity was able to flow by completing the circuit thus causing the letter to appear.

But why did that electricity cause the letter to come up on the screen?

4. Because the electricity flowed through the CPU thus causing the key to be translated into Unicode and interpreted into becoming that specific letter.

See where I am going?

As knowledge on something like this increases, more questions will be answered. But, the more the answers, the more questions there will be. This will thus cause in a constant Q&A that will go on forever; infinity. However, there will be one question Science will never answer.

"Why?"

The only logical answer to that is some omnipotent, omniscient force that can do anything.

Now, I know some of you do not understand this. In order to understand, you have to think outside of the box and you have to have an open mind reading what I just said. Only then will it make sense.

Fifthly, You cant say God doesnt exist because something cannot be created from nothing. God is not something. Its not something you can see with your eyes. God is a force which explains the reason why everything is the way it is.

Lastly, I agree; religion was created to keep the people under control. It gave the people a sense of hope, a sense of something to have faith in and to never give up. It did not really matter whether it was true or not. The idea of religion brought something every human needs every once in a while, Hope. And that should never be looked down upon.

Wow. You athiests are very naive.

Ok, First thing you must understand is that you should STOP CONSIDERING GOD A PERSON. God is an all powerful force that can do ANYTHING! How you people define God is not exactly the real definition.

A good point, except that for religion to be justified, God has to be a person. For god to have created the universe and to expect worship he must have some extent of sentience. Besides, the concept of omnipotence is completely impossible. There are a number of questions that can DISPROVE this supposed force. Example; "Can God create an object that he cannot destroy?" If he can create the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he cannot destroy the object. And if he can't CREATE the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he can't create the object. And if he can, somehow, do both, then he's just impossible because he's a paradox, and the universe would implode.


Second, everyone gives the same argument of you can't make something from nothing. Now by using the definition of God, you will realize that God can make something from nothing? Why? Because God can do anything and everything!

See above. And on another note, if God can exist at the start of everything, then it is entirely possible then the universe simply existed at the start of everything.

Third, most of you atheists are doing nothing but proving Christianity wrong (which I believe to be the most flawed religion in the world). All evolution vs. Adam and Eve thing is related to Christianity. There is no where in any other religion where it says something like that. The Church made the whole Science vs. Religion. Other religions like Judaism and Hinduism just simply adapt. Those religions embrace the connection between science and religion instead of pulling them apart.

Yes, the greatest Atheist target is Christianity because it is the religion that most openly opposes it. As for your arguments about these other religions supposedly adapt to the progression of science, I'm not quite sure I understand how that works. "Gravity? Oh yeah, our god did that too."?

Fourthly, I will now prove God's existence (or attempt to, depends on what you want to believe). Take your keyboard for example. You press the key.

Why did a letter appear on the screen?

1. Because you pressed the key with that specific letter.

But why did that key make the letter on the screen?

2. Because by pressing it down, you completed the circuit which gave you the letter (or something like that).

But why did pressing it down complete a circuit?

3. Because electricity was able to flow by completing the circuit thus causing the letter to appear.

But why did that electricity cause the letter to come up on the screen?

4. Because the electricity flowed through the CPU thus causing the key to be translated into Unicode and interpreted into becoming that specific letter.

See where I am going?

As knowledge on something like this increases, more questions will be answered. But, the more the answers, the more questions there will be. This will thus cause in a constant Q&A that will go on forever; infinity. However, there will be one question Science will never answer.

"Why?"

The only logical answer to that is some omnipotent, omniscient force that can do anything.

Hoo, boy, this is gonna be fun. Okay, yes, I will admit that science will never have the answer to everything, but our answers and questions PROGRESS. As we learn more on our own, we ask more questions in order to learn more and better improve ourselves, whereas religion answers all questions in the same way, "Our God did it." Furthermore, the question "Why?" is the most ASININE question I have ever borne witness to. To say that "Why?" proves God is entirely inane in that to ask "Why?" you must (or should) beleive that there is some sort of order, something to ask "Why?" in the first place.

Now, I know some of you do not understand this. In order to understand, you have to think outside of the box and you have to have an open mind reading what I just said. Only then will it make sense.

I have a very open mind, just not to concepts and ideas that have no foundation and often contradict themselves.

Fifthly, You cant say God doesnt exist because something cannot be created from nothing. God is not something. Its not something you can see with your eyes. God is a force which explains the reason why everything is the way it is.

You're repeating a point you already made, and I already disproved.

Lastly, I agree; religion was created to keep the people under control. It gave the people a sense of hope, a sense of something to have faith in and to never give up. It did not really matter whether it was true or not. The idea of religion brought something every human needs every once in a while, Hope. And that should never be looked down upon.

I don't look down upon hope. I look down upon fanatisicism, I look down upon people who WASTE their intelligence, their life, their potential for what they could do for the world on religion. Religion lies down moral code, guidelines that say how people should act. These things can be there without the monarchistic system that damns it's followers from the start. Religion creates hope, but also introduces conflict. If the world were without religion, but with one moral code, we would be a lot better off in that we would be free of the dedication to a supposedly omnipotent being that will punish us if we don't obey it's standards, when it's standards differ from ANOTHER omnipotent being that will do the same to IT'S disbeleivers. You are very intelligent, but your arguements deny any sort of arguement. You are very matter-of-fact in your condradictions, which doesn't really help any of your points. I applaud that you provide such thought provoking matters, and if you can provide answers that would disprove me in any way, I would gladly listen. As I said, I am open to valid points, and would love to be wrong. That's how we grow.

You know what? Let's not.

No, LET US think about it. Thoughts are humanities' key tool. They are what makes us sentient, the dominant form of life on the planet. We must question God if we are to understand why God.

Wow. You athiests are very naive.

Ok, First thing you must understand is that you should STOP CONSIDERING GOD A PERSON. God is an all powerful force that can do ANYTHING! How you people define God is not exactly the real definition.

Second, everyone gives the same argument of you can't make something from nothing. Now by using the definition of God, you will realize that God can make something from nothing? Why? Because God can do anything and everything!

Third, most of you atheists are doing nothing but proving Christianity wrong (which I believe to be the most flawed religion in the world). All evolution vs. Adam and Eve thing is related to Christianity. There is no where in any other religion where it says something like that. The Church made the whole Science vs. Religion. Other religions like Judaism and Hinduism just simply adapt. Those religions embrace the connection between science and religion instead of pulling them apart.

Fourthly, I will now prove God's existence (or attempt to, depends on what you want to believe). Take your keyboard for example. You press the key.

Why did a letter appear on the screen?

1. Because you pressed the key with that specific letter.

But why did that key make the letter on the screen?

2. Because by pressing it down, you completed the circuit which gave you the letter (or something like that).

But why did pressing it down complete a circuit?

3. Because electricity was able to flow by completing the circuit thus causing the letter to appear.

But why did that electricity cause the letter to come up on the screen?

4. Because the electricity flowed through the CPU thus causing the key to be translated into Unicode and interpreted into becoming that specific letter.

See where I am going?

As knowledge on something like this increases, more questions will be answered. But, the more the answers, the more questions there will be. This will thus cause in a constant Q&A that will go on forever; infinity. However, there will be one question Science will never answer.

"Why?"

The only logical answer to that is some omnipotent, omniscient force that can do anything.

Now, I know some of you do not understand this. In order to understand, you have to think outside of the box and you have to have an open mind reading what I just said. Only then will it make sense.

Fifthly, You cant say God doesnt exist because something cannot be created from nothing. God is not something. Its not something you can see with your eyes. God is a force which explains the reason why everything is the way it is.

Lastly, I agree; religion was created to keep the people under control. It gave the people a sense of hope, a sense of something to have faith in and to never give up. It did not really matter whether it was true or not. The idea of religion brought something every human needs every once in a while, Hope. And that should never be looked down upon.


Hmmm... interesting thoughts here...

Let me explain my point of view a bit more. I don't beleive in boxes of thought - thought is fluid, sentient life. As sentient beings ourselves, we can harness this thought process and turn it to solve the great puzzles of the Universe - including the Universe itself.

God is a phenonemon created by human minds. That becomes acceptable only when we gain the level of technology we need to become Gods. Who knows how far our thoughts will take us? Maybe we are all wrong - maybe we will find God or its equivalent one day. But what is important is that we try and push out our boundaries without being afraid of so-called 'divine wrath'.

God is an engima.

There is nothing more relevant to science than enigmas.

I think the best argument against God was put forward by one of the Greek Philosphers (Plato? Aristotole? Socrates ... dunno one of them)

It goes something like this...

By his very definition (and as claimed by every religion) God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and Omniscience (Everywhere, all powerfull and all knowing)

we tackle this simply by looking at human misery around the world - the tsunami, katrina, 9/11, starving kids in africa, take your pick

So why does he let it happen?

Is it because he isnt aware- Therefore he cannot be all-knowing - therefore not God.

If he isnt aware, is it because he cannot be everywhere - not omnipresent - therefore not god.

If he is aware - cant he stop it? maybe he is unable to control everything - therefore not all powerfull - therefore not god.

If he is everywhere, is all knowing, can stop it but still CHOOSES not to then I would add a fourth, he is not all loving...(classic counter arguement by creationist - He is all loving but lets the people decide for themselves), then that tells me he cannot or rather will not stop it (dont know which is worse).

So in summary, he either doesnt exist, or if he does, is so petty n spiteful that he will grant people freedom to choose than begrudge them that very freedom (eg, if we say for example that Christianity is the real religion and everything is a fallacy, then what did that poor bugger in subsaharan africa who has never heard of it ever doen to deserve going to hell - he's only following what he was born into...)

therefore either way, i wouldnt worship god. I do think that there are more powerful and smarter beings out there, just not God. God-like maybe in their powers, but certainly not worth worshipping. More likely to find very advanced alien beings with seemingly "supernatural" powers then a God

The only logical answer to that is some omnipotent, omniscient force that can do anything.

The way I see it, god is, indeed, a force, rather than an entity. However, it does not have omniscience or omnipotency. It is not omnipotent, because it can't disobey the laws of existence that result from its nature. However, as this universe exists as a result of the nature of its power, within that domain it has total control. Things that are impossible are outside that domain, and are like trying to define what the outside of a curved space is. There is no outside.

That is not to say that it doesn't do what its "purpose" is to do. Every form of energy has an effect, and a state that is the lack of that energy. It has a purpose not through sentience, but through its own innate nature. Such is god. Beyond concepts of religion, beyond concepts of gender, or anything else human, it flows throughout the universe. The best human, English description of this force would probably be "love", though that is usually tainted with all kinds of specific connotations depending on who utters it, myself included.

This can even be extended into polytheism, where there is more than one force working its power in the universe, a distinct possibility. Who is to say god is the end-all-be-all of such things? Then again, you could also postulate that these other gods exist solely on earth, as a result of what is going on here, and that the overall universe is shaped by the "love" I described.

Even without a god, there is a set of rules our universe abides by, and anything created by a set of rules has a signature, a distinctive watermark that makes evident what shaped it. At the root of that signature is the algorithm that made it. Like a fractal, if you delve into the complexities of god, you will get the same images, the same concepts repeated over and over again. I leave it up to the individual to form beliefs about what those concepts and images are. Even atheists operate on a belief, so they aren't exempt from this model.

And since everything that results from a particular force carries within it the nature of that force, we as humans, naturally, are connected to it. We are hardwired to have emotions and the ability to think beyond our own experience and existence. Features which are not immediately necessary for survival. Why then are they there? Is our desire to connect with others and the world around us a by-product of evolution, as useless as the human appendix? Or is it a higher function of evolution, to bring us to a point above mere survival and into the realm of furthering the love and order that has shaped this world?

The universe was, at first, extreme, violent chaos, until existence bounced off itself enough and shaped into forms, like galaxies and planets. If we are the most complex and highly ordered pieces of matter in the universe, then we exemplify the purpose behind the energy that shaped that matter. If human intelligence is a highly ordered form of energy, then that which shapes the universe is intelligent by the same definition.

Then again, I could just be ranting at 5 in the morning after having gotten no sleep due to a very stressful day, so take it as you will.

A good point, except that for religion to be justified, God has to be a person. For god to have created the universe and to expect worship he must have some extent of sentience. Besides, the concept of omnipotence is completely impossible. There are a number of questions that can DISPROVE this supposed force. Example; "Can God create an object that he cannot destroy?" If he can create the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he cannot destroy the object. And if he can't CREATE the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he can't create the object. And if he can, somehow, do both, then he's just impossible because he's a paradox, and the universe would implode.




See above. And on another note, if God can exist at the start of everything, then it is entirely possible then the universe simply existed at the start of everything.



Yes, the greatest Atheist target is Christianity because it is the religion that most openly opposes it. As for your arguments about these other religions supposedly adapt to the progression of science, I'm not quite sure I understand how that works. "Gravity? Oh yeah, our god did that too."?



Hoo, boy, this is gonna be fun. Okay, yes, I will admit that science will never have the answer to everything, but our answers and questions PROGRESS. As we learn more on our own, we ask more questions in order to learn more and better improve ourselves, whereas religion answers all questions in the same way, "Our God did it." Furthermore, the question "Why?" is the most ASININE question I have ever borne witness to. To say that "Why?" proves God is entirely inane in that to ask "Why?" you must (or should) beleive that there is some sort of order, something to ask "Why?" in the first place.



I have a very open mind, just not to concepts and ideas that have no foundation and often contradict themselves.



You're repeating a point you already made, and I already disproved.



I don't look down upon hope. I look down upon fanatisicism, I look down upon people who WASTE their intelligence, their life, their potential for what they could do for the world on religion. Religion lies down moral code, guidelines that say how people should act. These things can be there without the monarchistic system that damns it's followers from the start. Religion creates hope, but also introduces conflict. If the world were without religion, but with one moral code, we would be a lot better off in that we would be free of the dedication to a supposedly omnipotent being that will punish us if we don't obey it's standards, when it's standards differ from ANOTHER omnipotent being that will do the same to IT'S disbeleivers. You are very intelligent, but your arguements deny any sort of arguement. You are very matter-of-fact in your condradictions, which doesn't really help any of your points. I applaud that you provide such thought provoking matters, and if you can provide answers that would disprove me in any way, I would gladly listen. As I said, I am open to valid points, and would love to be wrong. That's how we grow.

Interesting. However, you didnt disprove my theory. You disproved the religions' theories. I am not the one who is totally into religions and those kinds of things. What I am saying (and you already know this) is that I feel God is not some person but this unstoppable force. Just imagine, this force can do virtually anything. It can shapeshift into anything you wish it to be, it can spawn anything. For example, you can see God transform into some dude and then he suddenly spawns a sword and does everything matrix-like (with all the pauses in mid-air and stuff). You have to imagine and think outside of the box.

You have to think of an entity that defies all logic that we have in this world. This is a fact even proven today by a simple example of video games. Let us say a programmer wants to write a fighting game. The programmer writes the physics of the game. Like, one law in the game is that you can jump twice, once on the ground and once in the air. Another law is if you die, you will explode into blue energy balls (like Megaman). So essentially, that programmer wrote his own world with his own laws.

Now, just imagine that God is a programmer and he made our world, our universe the way it is supposed to be even if God's existence does not follow our logic.

To conclude, I would like to thank you for calling me intelligent and I agree that most religions tend to have their flaws but some of the things they state just seem morally correct (in my opinion). You are one of the few athiests I know who actually listens to both sides of the argument and I would like to thank you for that.

Let's think about it.

God was created by human minds because humans could not control their environment, or their destiny. But now, as technology advances, we will get to the stage where we can control our destiny and our world. This advance will (seemingly) undermine the reason for God, and therefore religion. This would cause religion to collapse - the fear of this event coming to pass has caused many religious figures to become suspicious of science, because it explains things without God, and then goes on to try and make humans into new Gods (on a smaller scale).

Religion likes to say that the universe is ordered as God said it would be. However, the Universe is not ordered - nor is it chaotic. It is an ordered chaos, or a chaotic order, where rules are not always what we think rules whould be, or how rules should behave. This fact (if we can call such a circumstance a fact) discomforts religion.

But we will never loose God, because we are human. Though in many ways we are heterogenous, we all share a few common ideals - the most critical of them being the desire to beleive in some sort of higher being that is able to control the Universe in some way or other.

We could very well become Gods' in the future, with weather control, ability to curea all diseases, the ability to travel at supra-light speed etc etc - but we will never loose the desire for some sort of higher being, a fundamental force that can exert some sort of contol over a Universe that may prove impossible to comprehend even at the peak of our evolution.

Whadd'ya think?

EDIT: Yes, I have too much time on my hands. But thinking is liberating. It is the closest thing we can get to being God - though the physical realisation of our thoughts cannot yet be created by ourselves in many circumstances.



Why me? Why you? Why us? Why anything?

So many questions from so many people. I wanted to trigger a debate, but not really on the ethics of God. The debate I would like is - is it really right/moral for humans to become Gods through science? We know we can, we are already reading the very base blocks of life themselves, and changing them. We have already torn free of our planet and sent people to spend a long time in a place where they should not be able to exist - and only can exist because we created a mini-world for them.

God is wonderful, but when we become God, that wonder becomes accessible.

Also, I do not appreciate any derogatory remarks about any faith. Though I am of no real religious distinction, I do feel strongly that one should respect people of faith, as they search out the answer to the universal question through a different path. Religion may well be the 'opium of the people', but it has triggered some deep thoughts whose relevance many only now become apparent.

What is the Universal Question?...







Why?


God will strike you with his cane and send you send you straight to hell you insignificant Atheist. :sniper:

Why not God?Lets ask shall we?

Me:
Why god?
God:
Because you asked me to -- SHRDLHU.

oh and btw
Me:
what does SHRDLHU mean?
God:
SHRDLHU is a famous early natural language program written by Terry Winograd.

[QUOTE=Xerisia]A good point, except that for religion to be justified, God has to be a person. For god to have created the universe and to expect worship he must have some extent of sentience. Besides, the concept of omnipotence is completely impossible. There are a number of questions that can DISPROVE this supposed force. Example; "Can God create an object that he cannot destroy?" If he can create the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he cannot destroy the object. And if he can't CREATE the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he can't create the object. And if he can, somehow, do both, then he's just impossible because he's a paradox, and the universe would implode.


This god could creat an "Item to Destroy this thing, that "god" could not destroy by its self.

[QUOTE=Xerisia]A good point, except that for religion to be justified, God has to be a person. For god to have created the universe and to expect worship he must have some extent of sentience. Besides, the concept of omnipotence is completely impossible. There are a number of questions that can DISPROVE this supposed force. Example; "Can God create an object that he cannot destroy?" If he can create the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he cannot destroy the object. And if he can't CREATE the object, then omnipotence is impossible because he can't create the object. And if he can, somehow, do both, then he's just impossible because he's a paradox, and the universe would implode.


This god could creat an "Item to Destroy this thing, that "god" could not destroy by its self.

What? You made no sense at all. Learn to type and speak properly.

I have to admit this is the worst "Yu err stooopyyd for beev'in in Gahd" threads I have seen.

I am amazed how people on these boards never tire of trying to impose their beliefs on others.

Not, sharing or debating--but imposing.

It wouldnt be so bad of it was just those "Stooopyd" Religious fanatics--or whatever slander is appropriate today.

Its bad when supposed "Pluralistic" "Open minded" Liberal quasi-intellectuals slam people for not thinking their way.

Its a ying yang of hypocrasy--round and round it goes.

I find it blackly amusing that there are so many people that can blindly accept that a god might always have existed, but find it impossible that all matter and energy in the universe could have always been here, instead.

I find it blackly amusing that there are so many people that can blindly accept that a god might always have existed, but find it impossible that all matter and energy in the universe could have always been here, instead.

I also find it blackly amusing that there are so many close minded morons who are not willing to give the idea that God might exist. You see, it is morons like you which make me feel that most atheists are morons. Keyword is most.

Why dont you try reading my posts?

[QUOTE=Terapherma]

What? You made no sense at all. Learn to type and speak properly.

one it made complete sence your just to stupid to understand adn two it's retards like you that make this world hard to get along in. Seeing as how you didnt get t the first time ill re state it for you if god created some thing he could not destroy (yet having the power to create it) he could simply create something else to destroy it for him. now is that to ard for you to under stand. Plus this who discution is slightly dumb to me in the first place b/c im pagan and the god you all seam to be speaking of i dont believe in. but you can not say because im pagan i wouldnt be able to properly participate in this dicusion because im preaty sure ive read the Bible more that the most of you and probable know more about reigion then all of you.

I would also ask for you to not to judge me on my spelling or my typing ability. For that is the reason why in the world today intelegence isn't messured by your ability to think but by the amount of paper work you turn in (if you didnt understand that then you need to develope alittle deeper thought before running your mouth next time)

I also find it blackly amusing that there are so many close minded morons who are not willing to give the idea that God might exist. You see, it is morons like you which make me feel that most atheists are morons. Keyword is most.

Why dont you try reading my posts?

I gave plenty of thought to it over the years, and being the scientific soul that I am, I looked high and low for any evidence of the divine. Guess what, Sherlock? I didn't find any.

You know, religion is the only concept in the world where most people default to the position "it must exist", even when not a shred of evidence exists that suggest that the divine is real. I mean, we discard Santa Clause, dragons and the Tooth Fairy as purest fantasy, but not religion. Amazing.

Data is data. We know that certain fundemental rules exist for how the universe works. We *know* that neither matter nor energy can be destroyed, merely converted from one state to another. Something cannot be made from nothing, and something cannot become nothing, either. Why is it so hard for people to accept the idea (based on real physical laws) that all the substance in the universe has always been here, and there is no real beginning and no real end to existance? Why is it you don't have courage to admit that there might be no god? There is zero evidence to support such a spurious claim of a deity, so why is people are so weak as to default to that position?

By the way, don't call me a moron, fuckwit. (see? It works both ways)

If there was nothing then where did god come from and better yet how did it create something from nothing?

So it makes no sense that a God created everything... but it makes more sense to say everything created itself?

Look at your watch. If I told you that it made itself, you'd tell me I was out of my fucking mind. Why? It's too complex, and speaks of a creator. Are we not more complex than a watch?

Everything in life has a creator... it doesn't just "happen." Why should the questions of origins be any different? Just wouldn't be right. :rolleyes:

So it makes no sense that a God created everything... but it makes more sense to say everything created itself? No. Random processes created life. Read a bit.

Look at your watch. If I told you that it made itself, you'd tell me I was out of my fucking mind. Why? It's too complex, and speaks of a creator. Are we not more complex than a watch? Haley's Watch argument, a philosophical argument from circa 17th century I believe that was completely shut down BY evolution. You are using something discredited to attack that which destroyed it. The irony is astounding.

Everything in life has a creator... it doesn't just "happen." Then god must really hate the Gulf coast. :rolleyes:

So it makes no sense that a God created everything... but it makes more sense to say everything created itself?

Look at your watch. If I told you that it made itself, you'd tell me I was out of my fucking mind. Why? It's too complex, and speaks of a creator. Are we not more complex than a watch?

Everything in life has a creator... it doesn't just "happen." Why should the questions of origins be any different? Just wouldn't be right. :rolleyes:

Ah, yes, the archic "found watch" anology, discredited idea of the 19th century.

If everything is designed, then the designer must be hugely incompetent, because his designs are terrible.

I think the best argument against God was put forward by one of the Greek Philosphers (Plato? Aristotole? Socrates ... dunno one of them)

It goes something like this...

By his very definition (and as claimed by every religion) God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and Omniscience (Everywhere, all powerfull and all knowing)

we tackle this simply by looking at human misery around the world - the tsunami, katrina, 9/11, starving kids in africa, take your pick

So why does he let it happen?

Is it because he isnt aware- Therefore he cannot be all-knowing - therefore not God.

If he isnt aware, is it because he cannot be everywhere - not omnipresent - therefore not god.

If he is aware - cant he stop it? maybe he is unable to control everything - therefore not all powerfull - therefore not god.

If he is everywhere, is all knowing, can stop it but still CHOOSES not to then I would add a fourth, he is not all loving...(classic counter arguement by creationist - He is all loving but lets the people decide for themselves), then that tells me he cannot or rather will not stop it (dont know which is worse).


It makes no sense to me that "freedom of choice" is such a bad argument. Liberals spend 90% of their time bitching that they don't have enough freedoms, yet the idea of a God who would let you choose your own paths is so fucking terrible.

Every religion is faith based. If you do not have faith that a God exists, how can you ask him to stop something if you deny that he's even real? Don't expect good things to happen if you refuse someone. If the person next to you does not exist, why would you, or how could you, ask him to stop doing something? It really makes no sense. You have to believe to get results. :p

It makes no sense to me that "freedom of choice" is such a bad argument. Liberals spend 90% of their time bitching that they don't have enough freedoms, yet the idea of a God who would let you choose your own paths is so fucking terrible.

No. See technically if there is a god, there is no such thing as choice. Causal determinism kicks in. However, if there is none then it means everything is freedom of choice. As Sartre would follow, we create our own meaning. Which is the ultimate choice, one far more than any god could bestow on someone. So using your own logic, your argument does not work.

Ah, yes, the archic "found watch" anology, discredited idea of the 19th century.

If everything is designed, then the designer must be hugely incompetent, because his designs are terrible.

Actually, his designs are perfect. I actually had no idea about that argument before, hehe... so, that's kinda bizarre. On the otherhand... women are weaker physically, but men have testicles. Giving a really weak spot to the stronger sex. Women have estrogen, but men have testosterone, therefore keeping in check reproduction. Making sure it doesn't happen too often, but often enough. It's the little things like that. You just have to know there's something more than an accident going on here. ;)

No. See technically if there is a god, there is no such thing as choice. Causal determinism kicks in. However, if there is none then it means everything is freedom of choice. As Sartre would follow, we create our own meaning. Which is the ultimate choice, one far more than any god could bestow on someone. So using your own logic, your argument does not work.
Yeah, thats a very typical way of refuting that. On the otherhand, that makes no sense. I'm only guessing that if there were a God, he could do whatever he pleases.

I also don't understand why people spend so much time refuting christians. Given I don't agree that christians on... alot... of things. It doesn't make sense for people to say that there is no God. Fact is, if we're wrong about God... then the same thing happens to us...we all become dirt in a box. If we're right, then we go to heaven, you go to hell. So is the goal to make sure everyone goes to hell?

Actually, his designs are perfect. I actually had no idea about that argument before, hehe... so, that's kinda bizarre. On the otherhand... women are weaker physically, but men have testicles. Giving a really weak spot to the stronger sex. Women have estrogen, but men have testosterone, therefore keeping in check reproduction. Making sure it doesn't happen too often, but often enough. It's the little things like that. You just have to know there's something more than an accident going on here. ;)

*cough* "Perfect design"? Uh, no.

Scientists (including Catholic biochemists such as Dr. Behe) are not trained in the methodology of design, and quite frankly, when the question turns to one of design, they are not the best people to call upon. In fact, design falls within the purview of engineers rather than scientists. Therefore, some would claim that since the "intelligent design" theory is actually quite popular among engineers (for whom every design required a designer), this bodes well for the theory.


However, as an engineer myself, I would strenuously object to that assumption, because most of the engineers who support this theory have either been brainwashed from birth (thus giving them an intellectual "blind spot" where their religion is concerned) or they simply haven't studied biology in enough detail to know whether we and our ecosystem are the sort of system which indicates a methodical design approach (ie- "intelligent design") rather than a haphazard trial and error approach (ie- evolution). The "intelligent design" proponents take advantage of this fact to sell them on the idea that the ecosystem is perfectly designed, and many engineers take the validity of that claim on faith. Therefore, they proceed on this invalid assumption to conclude that it must have been designed by someone.


However, if you investigate this claim beyond the surface, it becomes blatantly apparent that it is completely false. "Intelligent design" is predicated upon the assumption that the ecosystem is a well designed system, with all of its various parts optimized to perfection and working in perfect harmony. They state this assumption as fact, and quickly move on to its ramifications. But if we hit the brakes and take a good look at the assumption, we will find that it has no basis. What possible justification is there for the claim that our ecosystem is well designed or highly optimized?


Dr. Behe and others believe that the necessary justification can be found simply by taking note of the enormous complexity and interdependency of the subsystems in a typical organism. He also notes their instability: if you so much as remove or degrade one little piece, the whole thing fails, therefore it must have been "intelligently designed". But as an engineer, I am absolutely appalled at the common acceptance of this false and groundless connection, even by some of my peers. In reality, which for me is the mechanical world of hydraulics, linkages, metallic structures, cooling systems, and electronic controls, the intelligent designer always creates the least complex, least interdependent, least unstable system to perform any given task. Occam's Razor isn't just a philosophical principle; it is an engineering axiom, and it is the incompetent designer whose designs are extremely complex and interdependent. And take note of this: the most complex, interdependent, inscrutable, and easily broken systems of all are invariably the ones that were designed not from the ground up, but by subjecting an existing system to repeated, haphazard, jury-rigged modifications!


Those familiar with computer software design will instantly recognize this phenomenon: the most convoluted, cross-wired, easily broken, metastable, bloated code is invariably that which incorporates a lot of "legacy baggage" rather than that which was designed from the ground up. Anyone familiar with basic engineering or computer programming theory, method, and practice should realize that far from disproving evolution theory, the enormous complexity of the biosystem and its life forms shows quite clearly that it could not have been intelligently designed! If we go with Dr. Behe's analogy of biochemical "machines", these machines are jury-rigged contraptions that were obviously based on legacy designs.


In fact, the enormous complicated biosystem and its complex, seemingly related, easily killed life forms are precisely what you would expect from a "trial and error" design methodology. Numerous questionable or just plain bad design aspects of living organisms are the obvious result of a sequence of repeated, haphazard, jury-rigged modifications upon a common ancestor. In other words, evolution.


Symptoms of jury-rigged design


Consider the following pieces of evidence supporting the theory that biological organisms are the result of trial and error, jury-rigged, evolutionary design rather than deliberate, "intelligent" design:


We were cobbled together from previous designs. Analysis of the human genome shows that every single piece of our genetic code is either a direct copy of other animals' codes, or a very minor modification upon said codes. Of course, by sheer coincidence, these animals just happen to be the ones that have been identified as our evolutionary precursors.


Dangerous design flaws. Because mammals evolved from the Devonian lungfish (Osteolepiformes) which swallowed air to breathe, we have inherited a respiratory system in which we use the same tube to breathe and swallow. A piece of food lodged in this double-duty windpipe can cause death! In real life engineering, the duplication of a dangerous design flaw from a previous design is considered an example of serious incompetence. In fact, if we imagine that an engineer had designed apes and then separately designed humans, he probably would have lost his license for negligently duplicating a serious, known design flaw!


Poor design aspects. For example, the human eye is wired backwards. Our photoreceptors face the wrong way, so that the side which connects to the nerve fibres is on the inside of the eye rather than the outside. This means that the nerve fibres actually "get in the way", and it also means that the eye has a hole in the back, through which these fibres must be bundled and passed through in order to reach the brain! This design increases the length of wiring for no good reason, decreases visual acuity, and creates a blind spot! A creationist would no doubt claim that God had a very good reason for doing it this way, but if so, then why did he design cephalopods (squids and octopi) with eyes wired correctly?


Failure to copy design corrections/improvements If a GM engineer discovered and corrected an intake manifold design flaw that restricts airflow for no good reason, it's a safe bet that this correction would make its way not only into future versions of that particular car, but every other GM vehicle which suffers from the original design flaw, irrespective of product line. However, the properly wired eyeballs of cephalopods were never incorporated into the vertebrate evolutionary branch. In other words, we share a poor design with all other members of our evolutionary branch. A better design exists, but only on another evolutionary branch! If this was the result of "intelligent design", then it begs the question: what kind of idiot would confine design improvements to a particular product line? Why don't humans incorporate the best design aspects of every animal species which preceded us, irrespective of evolutionary lineage? <Gasp!> Could it be that we have descended from one particular family of animals?


Poor manufacturing yields. Creationists take great pleasure in pointing out how precise our biological systems are. They love to cite, over and over, the fact that even the most miniscule alteration of certain parameters would cause the entire system to fail. However, any engineer familiar with basic quality control theory would consider such a design totally unacceptable. It is not "robust", meaning that it cannot withstand even the most minor alteration to optimal conditions. This leads to extremely low yields: out of millions of sperm in a typical ejaculation, fewer than 1,000 even reach the fallopian tubes, at which point half of them will go into the wrong tube. Only one will fertilize the egg, and the majority of fertilized eggs will not successfully implant in the uterine wall. Moreover, even successful fertilizations and implantations do not necessarily go to term; many pregnancies end in miscarriage, sometimes so early that the female may not even realize she was pregnant. We are talking about manufacturing yields below 0.0001%, people! By any engineering standard, this is awful! But by the standard of ruthless "survival of the fittest", it makes perfect sense.


Tendency to modify instead of add. Also known as "transformed organs". When a component of a design is modified to perform some new function at the expense of its original function, engineers generally describe the result as "jury-rigged". Nature is full of examples of such jury-rigging (eg. insect mouth-parts that used to be legs, dolphin fins that contain a full set of finger bones), but the best example is your arms. We have two arms and two legs because we are bipedal, but bipedal locomotion is ridiculously inefficient (for example, a typical dog can easily outrun a human despite its short legs). Worse yet, we are horribly inefficient runners even for bipeds (compare a human's running speed to the land speed of an ostrich or any other landed bird). Our poor speed and our lack of natural defenses make us easy prey for predators, so if not for our ability to make weapons, we would have been the footstool of the animal world. Even today, people are regularly killed by wild animals because they can't run quickly enough to get away. So why were we "designed" this way? Why would a competent engineer cripple us in this manner, rather than giving us four legs and two arms? This question is difficult to answer with "intelligent design", but it's easy to answer with evolution: we evolved from creatures with four legs, and two of those legs were transformed into our arms. The evolutionary advantage was presumably reproductive: we could carry food, so we could shelter our mates and our young in protected caves while we foraged.


Creationists open a dangerous can of worms when they suggest that we consider biological structures as engineered designs. Any engineer can examine the entire "product line" and see widespread evidence of massive, inexplicable incompetence. Dangerous, potentially lethal design flaws are mindlessly propagated through entire product lines, design improvements are mysteriously confined within product lines, manufacturing yields are horrendous, and every design has been cobbled together from previous designs, and new features are often jury-rigged from old ones instead of being added as genuinely new systems. Any engineer who takes a serious look at biological organisms from an engineering standpoint (as opposed to mindlessly accepting creationist propaganda about its "perfection") will have no choice but to conclude that there was no intelligence whatsoever behind it.


Extinction


The fossil record is full of species which are now extinct. More than 99% of the species in the history of this planet are now gone. This is extremely easy to explain with evolution theory, which predicts that changing environments and ruthless competition will drive some species into extinction while making others thrive.


But does "intelligent design" theory predict this? Absolutely not. Unless this "intelligent designer" is incredibly incompetent, it is hard to imagine why he would devote so much time to so many badly designed creatures, and then let them live for so long before creating competitive species that would wipe them out.


What explanation can be given? That the "intelligent designer" wasn't particularly good at his craft, so he had to keep tweaking and improving his initial designs? If so, then how does that differ from evolution theory, apart from the apparently redundant term that is our "intelligent designer"?


No major revisions


An intelligent designer will occasionally make the effort to discard legacy design considerations. Sometimes, we'll recognize that a design has become so convoluted that it would be better to start from scratch, rather than continuing to tweak the existing mess. Other times, we'll carefully pick through a design, replacing certain sub-optimal components with redesigned parts and eliminating wasteful redundancies or weak points.


Does the imaginary "intelligent designer" responsible for our biosystem do this? Not exactly. In fact, there is not one example anywhere of fresh starts, new ideas, sudden left turns, or any of the other kinds of occasional major revisions that are typical of real large-scale, intelligent design. Instead, this "intelligent designer" appears to be the most unimaginative designer in the universe, having never once, in billions of years and millions of species, created a biological structure which didn't resemble a modification upon some kind of antecedent!


One might try to argue that our intelligent designer, being omniscient and omnipotent, designed his first cellular organism so well, with such foresight that no sudden and dramatic design revisions were ever required. But that flies in the face of the countless wrong turns taken in the evolutionary history of this planet (eg. extinct species), not to mention the severe debilitating effect of "legacy hardware" in our biological "design". In other words, if he were so damned smart, then why did he screw up so many times, and why aren't we better designed?


There are countless examples of sub-optimal design in the human body. For example, the aforementioned examples of our breathing apparatus and our eyeball design are obviously sub-optimal. Also, why is the skull so thin (particularly in the temples), even though this greatly increases the probability that a blow to the head will damage the vulnerable brain inside? There are, in fact, a huge number of sub-optimal design characteristics found in nature (see the Jury-Rigged Design FAQ at TalkOrigins.org for examples).

http://www.creationtheory.org/Essays/IntelligentDesign.shtml

I also don't understand why people spend so much time refuting christians. Given I don't agree that christians on... alot... of things. It doesn't make sense for people to say that there is no God. Fact is, if we're wrong about God... then the same thing happens to us...we all become dirt in a box. If we're right, then we go to heaven, you go to hell. So is the goal to make sure everyone goes to hell?
No, the goal is the same as always is in philosophy; to find truths about the world around us that cannot be tested scientifically. You're looking at it from a very christian standpoint, which implicates a sort of bias. Further, you seem to be advocating a sort of Pascal's wager here which has long since been debunked. Fact is, if a religion like christianity is going to make grandoise claims, it has to be able to stand up to criticism. And if it can't, it isn't true.

God was created to make life easier, example:
-"Why does it rain?"
-"Uhmmm"
-"..."
-"It was god"
-"Who is god?"
-"God lives in the skies(easy to say in a time where there were no airplanes) and he made everything you can see"
-"Oh, ok. So he's really powerfull?"
-"Yup"
-"Great, now I can stop thinking about it and get to farming again, thanks man!"

i would just like to mention you are flase in your reason of where god lives, to children it was said he lived in the sky, it was easier for them to understand then heaven, but other then that it has always been heaven, and where heaven is, has never been answered, people assume above us.

Later on, god became handy again

-"Hey, you know about that god guy I told you about?"
-"I do, why?"
-"He told me to tell you he wants food"
-"Ok, but I can't bring it to him, he's high in the skies"
-"Ummm, yeah, but I'll give it to him, I know how to"
-"You do? cool, could you show me how?"
-"No it's a secret, if anyone else but me knows, god will kill him"
-"Ok, I don't wanna mess with god!"

lol, and where the hell does this come from?

If there was nothing then where did god come from and better yet how did it create something from nothing?

your just going to go in circles with that arguemnt. where did all this come from, the big bang etc.., where did that come from

where did this come from, god, where did god come from.

answers that will never even come close to being understood.

But now, as technology advances, we will get to the stage where we can control our destiny and our world.

Although the idea of god was one of the worst ideas ever, it being discredited does not justify such egotistical statements. I suggest you read The Arrogance of Humanism by David Ehrenfeld. The idea that technology can solve all are problems is a logical fallacy at heart.... You know the technology and plans now exists to build a stable rational sustainable world, but it will never happen. If we survive it will be because of luck.

I would just ignore people's superstitions, live and let live, but the problem is you have a president who invaded Iraq because god told him to. You have nut-cases killing people in the name of Allah. You've judges who think they're getting info from an imaginary deity concerning your guilt or innocence..etc. etc. etc.
So, as futile as this debate may be, I don't feel we can quit.

why is that the statement of the year for libs, BUsh didnt go into iraq because god told him too, that whole thing was made up to make bush look like more of a god fearing dumbass

here we go again.. im not rying to have a go but who said god crated the universe? answer some dude in a book
who said god exists? answer-some dude in a book.

i do belive in a higer power but not as decribed as in any religius text as they tend to be connected with breaking there own rules they set.. IE: tho shalt not kill!!!!
there is no person who can deny the FACT all religions lie to become more holyer than thou. an now for some light humer...
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/268440

lol, im not crticizing your views, but the way you put the link on what you beleive seems as if you are basing your belief on a flash someone put on newgrounds, and knowing the type of people that submit flash to newgrounds, i just had to laugh at that.

[QUOTE=Willink]Funny, science has basicly disproved god.

1. God created adam and eve, and giraffes and crap
Um, there is something called evolution..

2. God created the earth
Big Bang..

3. People worship god
What has god ever done for you, besides give support, which is really you just beliving in something.

[\QUOTE]

science didnt disprove god, what science did was create alternative theories, that could be called scientific theories, they have not proven these theories to be true and they have not found god to be flase. what we have here is a misunderstanding of your science textbook.

have you ever played chinese whispers?

why do people insist on using this as an example, completely different, chinese whispers you hear a phrase once and only once, and even at that it is being whispered into your ear, when people whisper they tend to not pronounce the words correctly, which leads to misunderstanding and thinking of a completely different word, or phrase. oral stories were repeated over and over again, they were memorized, people knew them word for word.

if the creation story was a oral story that changed over the years, i ask you this, why didnt it turn out like most other stories that were passed down orally. beowulf, for example, there are many differnt versions of that same story, because people adopted it different people added different pats into it, there are many different versions but they all have the same basic story, just different ways of describing what went on. as for the creation story, there is one. in mayn different cultures too. its still the same, the one story.

there are many different versions but they all have the same basic story, just different ways of describing what went on. as for the creation story, there is one. in mayn different cultures too. its still the same, the one story.

Yes we were dug out of the Earth by a giant pig! Or made out of clay by a drunk! Or sprouted from a holy ear of corn. est. est.

There are many different stories, all completely different except for the having supernatural elements.

God will strike you with his cane and send you send you straight to hell you insignificant Atheist. :sniper:

I sincerely hope that you were joking...

Because nobody is insignificant.

Yes we were dug out of the Earth by a giant pig! Or made out of clay by a drunk! Or sprouted from a holy ear of corn. est. est.

There are many different stories, all completely different except for the having supernatural elements.

stories such as aboriginal stories of how the earth started, were adopted when they felt their beliefs changed, they seperated from god, and no longer went by that religion, they in a sense created their own over the years. much like today, people no longer accept creationism so they made up a story of how a big bang happened and then evolution. its not to much different then the aboriginal story, they had reason to beleive their story and you have reason to believ your story.

and yes it is nothing but a story, cant prove it, you may find some facts or rather other theorires that agree with it, but what your missing is the observastion of it actually happening, it will never be proven (some of you thnk it already has) and your story is no better then oral stories being passed down from generation to generation, scientist are always in arguement on which animal we are closer resembled to, they keep coming up with more, cant seem to make up their mind. and someone had to make up the story of the primordial ooze and it was adopted as part of the story, there is no proof for there being such stuff, but you all seem to believe it.

You know, religion is the only concept in the world where most people default to the position "it must exist", even when not a shred of evidence exists that suggest that the divine is real. I mean, we discard Santa Clause, dragons and the Tooth Fairy as purest fantasy, but not religion. Amazing.



lets take a look her, tooth fairy and santa calus, they never were thought to be real, unless of course if you count the guy sant claus was absed on, he was real, but the modern santa claus is your parents, and they comes a time in your life that you a. figure it out, or b. they tell you, they dont expect you to go on in life thinking the tooth fairy and santa claus are real, now as for dragons, your science, the one you all believe in so much says they may exist. just not the same as whta was thought.

just because there is no evidence you are able to comprehend that there is a god doesnt mena that there isnt a god. i cant see any evidence in todays world that there was some primordial ooze, that doesnt mean that didnt exist. i dont see any evidence from where im standing that the earth is round, but that doesnt mean its flat. science is always changing, kind of make you want to question alot of its theories.

now as for dragons, your science, the one you all believe in so much says they may exist

We're out there... ^_~

PResuming the Big Bang thing actually took place, it did create the universe. Our universe wasn't there before it happened. If you find the big bang theory plausible (which I myself do), then it's utterly pointless to talk about "before". Time is a dimension of our universe. And as it happens, science itself will never be the answer. It simply can't be applied to things beyond out universe, regardless of whether it's supernatural entities, or pure mechanics.

Saying "it didn't pop out from nothing", is a completely unfounded statement. And you'll never have any sort of basis for making the claim - at least not a scientific one.

"Evolution, the Big Bang, and Gravity...none of these are facts. They are theories" - How very true. They'll never be facts, but the throries are none the less based on factual observation. That's more than any religion have ever been.

I find the big bang theory plausible. And yet, I still hold that it was caused. Saying ti didn't pop out from nothing is not unfounded at all. What basis do you need for the claim? When has matter EVER appeared from no where. Have you ever had matter materialize next to you while walking around outside? It doesn't happen. No law in science leaves room for matter to materialize uncaused.

Oral traditions maybe, but the Bible is a written text that's over a thousand years old. There are no remnants today of the origional version, of that I can assure you. In fact, the thing has been translated, re-translated (a process which changes the meaning of words to an amazing degree), re-written (yes. Re-written. The Church was such a huge political power in the Middle Ages, you can't possibly believe that it was never changed to benefit Cardinals, even the Pope. I'm sure it was "edited" many a time.)
Besides, Oral Traditions do eventually dissapear or change drastically once the line of people who know it is broken or dies out. And due to the ammount of culling, religious wars, and the simple progression of time, there is no way that that hasn't happened. Also, don't forget that 50-60 year old folk songs are not only around 20 times younger than the bible, but also that 50-60 years ago, things were well doccumented. It'd be easy to trace down the exact original words to those songs.

I don't think so. First of all, the translations were done by monks who were shut up in monastaries, not by popes and cardinals and bishops. The monks spent their whole lives translating the bible. Had the Pope made changes, there would have been outcries from every monastary in Europe. The changes would have been known by everyone who knew the bible. You have to remember people have been reading the bible non-stop for centuries. They didn't all have a version, the pope made a change, and then they all went and bought new ones. That's just silly. There would have been scholars that knew the bible even better than the popes themselves around when each different pope came into power.

Could there be differences in translations? Sure there could. But the original texts in the original language is still around. Much of the NT was written in greek originally. We still have that.

Third, most of you atheists are doing nothing but proving Christianity wrong (which I believe to be the most flawed religion in the world). All evolution vs. Adam and Eve thing is related to Christianity. There is no where in any other religion where it says something like that. The Church made the whole Science vs. Religion. Other religions like Judaism and Hinduism just simply adapt. Those religions embrace the connection between science and religion instead of pulling them apart..

Um, Genisis is also in the Torah. The first 5 books of the Old Testament make up the Torah. Christianity did not create teh Adam and Eve story. Sorry, you're mistaken. Judaism says the same thing. And there are thousands of Christian scientists who will tell you that science and religion are compatible and that the they do not pull each other apart.



Lastly, I agree; religion was created to keep the people under control. It gave the people a sense of hope, a sense of something to have faith in and to never give up. It did not really matter whether it was true or not. The idea of religion brought something every human needs every once in a while, Hope. And that should never be looked down upon.

Hope does not equal control. Religion gave people hope, it hardly controlled them.

I gave plenty of thought to it over the years, and being the scientific soul that I am, I looked high and low for any evidence of the divine. Guess what, Sherlock? I didn't find any.

You know, religion is the only concept in the world where most people default to the position "it must exist", even when not a shred of evidence exists that suggest that the divine is real. I mean, we discard Santa Clause, dragons and the Tooth Fairy as purest fantasy, but not religion. Amazing.

Data is data. We know that certain fundemental rules exist for how the universe works. We *know* that neither matter nor energy can be destroyed, merely converted from one state to another. Something cannot be made from nothing, and something cannot become nothing, either. Why is it so hard for people to accept the idea (based on real physical laws) that all the substance in the universe has always been here, and there is no real beginning and no real end to existance? Why is it you don't have courage to admit that there might be no god? There is zero evidence to support such a spurious claim of a deity, so why is people are so weak as to default to that position?

By the way, don't call me a moron, fuckwit. (see? It works both ways)

because no real physical laws support that all the substance in the universe has always been here. Neither does common sense.

No. Random processes created life. Read a bit.

Haley's Watch argument, a philosophical argument from circa 17th century I believe that was completely shut down BY evolution. You are using something discredited to attack that which destroyed it. The irony is astounding.

Then god must really hate the Gulf coast. :rolleyes:

Random processes did not create life. Science doesn't support that. Read a bit.

Evolution didn't shut down any origin of life theories, evolution doesn't deal with origin of life. Nor does evolution deal with the origin of matter.

because no real physical laws support that all the substance in the universe has always been here. Neither does common sense.
and common sense supports the existance of a god? sweet baby jesus and the orphans!! Is this still going on!? Get over it already! I'll say it again just for good measure.
Scientific Fact: you can't prove or disprove the existance of god.

considering a being of infinite power and complexity to have always been around exactly why is it so hard to believe that matter, that is infinitly simpler than god, to have always been in existance? and does it really matter? no doubt this is beyond anyone here and, most likely, humanity itself. give it a rest.

and common sense supports the existance of a god? sweet baby jesus and the orphans!! Is this still going on!? Get over it already! I'll say it again just for good measure.
Scientific Fact: you can't prove or disprove the existance of god.

considering a being of infinite power and complexity to have always been around exactly why is it so hard to believe that matter, that is infinitly simpler than god, to have always been in existance? and does it really matter? no doubt this is beyond anyone here and, most likely, humanity itself. give it a rest.

um, we're in a discussion where these things are relevant. If you're in need of a rest, go rest. I got plenty of rest now, I'm fine, thanks. Why do people always jump into a conversation and start screaming "stop talking about this!"?

<snip>

Nah, God was invented so we would have someone to blame when things went shitty. "Not my fault, GODS WILL" "GOD MADE ME DO IT". etc.

um, we're in a discussion where these things are relevant. If you're in need of a rest, go rest. I got plenty of rest now, I'm fine, thanks. Why do people always jump into a conversation and start screaming "stop talking about this!"?
in the eyes of science, god is irrelevent.. as I've said.. both sides approach the subject from a position of dogmatism.. your opinion is irrelevent to these atheists.. the only pupose of this post is to force opinions into the faces of others to satisfy your own ego.. I guess I'll just let you get on with it then..

The big bang is a process. Yes, it is true that the Earth came from that, but the Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe. the matter of the universe came from somewhere. It didn't "pop" out of nothing.


True, but with no answer, just going out and saying "Oh, god made it" dosn't answer it, and is somewhat of a excuse for bible beaters, who whenever something is unexplained, their reply is "God made/did it."

This has nothing to do with Why God? But it has to do with a little bit of him.

What if there is no God and Heaven and Hell? Where will our souls go to? Will we always be reincarnated into another being and repeat this process? Live first life - die - reincarnated - live second life - die - reincarnated - live third life, etc. Then life has no meaning! You will always live no matter what? No God, means where would our souls go? And if we aren't reincarnated and there is no God, then where will our souls go?

This has nothing to do with Why God? But it has to do with a little bit of him.

What if there is no God and Heaven and Hell? Where will our souls go to? Will we always be reincarnated into another being and repeat this process? Live first life - die - reincarnated - live second life - die - reincarnated - live third life, etc. Then life has no meaning! You will always live no matter what? No God, means where would our souls go? And if we aren't reincarnated and there is no God, then where will our souls go?

who says we have souls?

who says we have souls?
who says we don't

who says we don't

souls or no souls? that is the question...

any ideas on how to find the answer?

souls or no souls? that is the question...

any ideas on how to find the answer?
we'd have to have souls because they are the very things that we can't live without (this is a dumb reply but oh well). Screw science, we need souls to survive. They are the very things that contain our esccence (bad spelling) and personality, and possibly the very thing we need to be judged by God - cast into Hell or live in solitude in Heaven.

we'd have to have souls because they are the very things that we can't live without (this is a dumb reply but oh well). Screw science, we need souls to survive. They are the very things that contain our esccence (bad spelling) and personality, and possibly the very thing we need to be judged by God - cast into Hell or live in solitude in Heaven.

or who we are is a big noodle inside our skull. what if this soul you speak of is not something sperable from the body? maybe when a person dies, the soul dies. our brain is what makes us, us. soul is just an idea, a religious one...

our brain only gives us knowledege and stores memory of our life or our knowledge and experience
the soul and heart is what makes us, not the brain. besides, in Ancient Egyptian mummification and belief, the heart was the most important organ of mummification and the after-life
the heart is what is needed to decide whether or not you are accepted in the after-life or not, and your soul lies in your heart, so it's no "religious idea"

Actually, the Brain is the center control for all matters of the body. It controls emotion, thought, natural instincts, ect. The heart is a muscle in your chest that pumps blood throughout your body, which is an action dominated by, again, the brain. The soul, finally, is an idea, a guess, formed on the lack of knoweldge of what exactly contains who we are. Just as most religion is, it is a lack of knoweldge, explaining what we don't know with ideas. Admittedly, science is much the same thing. The only difference is we KNOW MORE now, and can FIND OUT more.

Let's think about it.

God was created by human minds because humans could not control their environment, or their destiny. But now, as technology advances, we will get to the stage where we can control our destiny and our world. This advance will (seemingly) undermine the reason for God, and therefore religion. This would cause religion to collapse - the fear of this event coming to pass has caused many religious figures to become suspicious of science, because it explains things without God, and then goes on to try and make humans into new Gods (on a smaller scale).

Religion likes to say that the universe is ordered as God said it would be. However, the Universe is not ordered - nor is it chaotic. It is an ordered chaos, or a chaotic order, where rules are not always what we think rules whould be, or how rules should behave. This fact (if we can call such a circumstance a fact) discomforts religion.

But we will never loose God, because we are human. Though in many ways we are heterogenous, we all share a few common ideals - the most critical of them being the desire to beleive in some sort of higher being that is able to control the Universe in some way or other.

We could very well become Gods' in the future, with weather control, ability to curea all diseases, the ability to travel at supra-light speed etc etc - but we will never loose the desire for some sort of higher being, a fundamental force that can exert some sort of contol over a Universe that may prove impossible to comprehend even at the peak of our evolution.

Whadd'ya think?

EDIT: Yes, I have too much time on my hands. But thinking is liberating. It is the closest thing we can get to being God - though the physical realisation of our thoughts cannot yet be created by ourselves in many circumstances.



Why me? Why you? Why us? Why anything?

So many questions from so many people. I wanted to trigger a debate, but not really on the ethics of God. The debate I would like is - is it really right/moral for humans to become Gods through science? We know we can, we are already reading the very base blocks of life themselves, and changing them. We have already torn free of our planet and sent people to spend a long time in a place where they should not be able to exist - and only can exist because we created a mini-world for them.

God is wonderful, but when we become God, that wonder becomes accessible.

Also, I do not appreciate any derogatory remarks about any faith. Though I am of no real religious distinction, I do feel strongly that one should respect people of faith, as they search out the answer to the universal question through a different path. Religion may well be the 'opium of the people', but it has triggered some deep thoughts whose relevance many only now become apparent.

What is the Universal Question?...







Why?



Why not religion?

Interesting. However, you didnt disprove my theory. You disproved the religions' theories. I am not the one who is totally into religions and those kinds of things. What I am saying (and you already know this) is that I feel God is not some person but this unstoppable force. Just imagine, this force can do virtually anything. It can shapeshift into anything you wish it to be, it can spawn anything. For example, you can see God transform into some dude and then he suddenly spawns a sword and does everything matrix-like (with all the pauses in mid-air and stuff). You have to imagine and think outside of the box.

You have to think of an entity that defies all logic that we have in this world. This is a fact even proven today by a simple example of video games. Let us say a programmer wants to write a fighting game. The programmer writes the physics of the game. Like, one law in the game is that you can jump twice, once on the ground and once in the air. Another law is if you die, you will explode into blue energy balls (like Megaman). So essentially, that programmer wrote his own world with his own laws.

Now, just imagine that God is a programmer and he made our world, our universe the way it is supposed to be even if God's existence does not follow our logic.

To conclude, I would like to thank you for calling me intelligent and I agree that most religions tend to have their flaws but some of the things they state just seem morally correct (in my opinion). You are one of the few athiests I know who actually listens to both sides of the argument and I would like to thank you for that.

Ah, now we are entering no-man's land, a place where no scientific man dares to tread. A healthy habit, of course. On the surface, an arguement such as this would be impossible to deny, as it offers nothing conclusive, yet is conclusive in itself. I feel that the constraints of the English language prevent me from expressing my envy of you, as neither logic nor poof is required in such an arguement, nonetheless, I don't deny challeneges. If indeed, God can defy the laws of the universe that he set down himself, then I ask you your own question. "Why?" what purpose does it serve to create a universe in which your domain is ultimate, regardless of what man holds to be true? Why ask for faith and obedience when he may simply make it where there is none? Why allow some upstart to even exist in the first place. If all events in all places are under the full influence of God, then why do such things take place? I offer the possibility that God HAS to be human by what you say. Maybe not our definition of human, maybe not even in the fact that he is a corporeal entity. If he does exist, then what is the purpose of the test that is life? If he is omniscient, why not send all sinners to hell immediately from their birth? The answer of course, is to prove a point. To MAKE people realize the truth of their own free will. And why would he do this? It's only rational to answer "emotion". The satisfaction one gains from proving a point, of being right, and converting one more being to your way of thinking. And maybe if he is not a corporeal thing, something we can never touch or understand, why does he display such human-like qualities? Maybe man is more in God's image then we'd like to think.

SO then I ask you, who or what created "god"? If, as you seem to believe, there would be no world or anything without God, then where did GOd come from? WHat created God? Why should I believe in someone/thing that will allow things like the Hollocost, 911, and the perfect flower to all exsist at the same time?
All of the above plus that fact that any organized religion requires me to think exactly like they do or burn in hell is why I don't believe in the concept of a "God".

God wasn't created because He has always existed and that's just the way things are.

God allows things like the Holocaust and 9/11 to happen because He has given man free will to do whatever he wants, and these are the things man chooses to do. Would you rather have been created a mindless robot that did whatever God wanted?

And whether or not you believe in something has no bearing on whether or not it is the truth. This whole discussion is ridiculous.

God wasn't created because He has always existed and that's just the way things are.

God allows things like the Holocaust and 9/11 to happen because He has given man free will to do whatever he wants, and these are the things man chooses to do. Would you rather have been created a mindless robot that did whatever God wanted?

And whether or not you believe in something has no bearing on whether or not it is the truth. This whole discussion is ridiculous.

The same can easily be applied to what YOU claim. To stop something because it is pointless is to deny yourself progress. All things are, in effect, pointless, regardless of which side of this discussion you are. And to claim that belief has no effect on the truth is just as inane a comment in that your side is as much a belief as ours. And to consider the possibility that God has always existed, you are denying yourself progress in considering that maybe the universe has existed forever. All things are paradoxial, pointless, and empty. Our life is but one bleak speck in the universal spectrum. A short, insignifgant speck. So I say, do anything and everything that's pointless, it's all pointless anyway.

The same can easily be applied to what YOU claim. To stop something because it is pointless is to deny yourself progress. All things are, in effect, pointless, regardless of which side of this discussion you are. And to claim that belief has no effect on the truth is just as inane a comment in that your side is as much a belief as ours. And to consider the possibility that God has always existed, you are denying yourself progress in considering that maybe the universe has existed forever. All things are paradoxial, pointless, and empty. Our life is but one bleak speck in the universal spectrum. A short, insignifgant speck. So I say, do anything and everything that's pointless, it's all pointless anyway.

What are you even talking about?

If I believe that this computer I'm using right now doesn't exist, that DOES NOT mean that it doesn't exist. I was just trying to point out to all of you who say, "well I'm not going to believe in God because I don't want to-- I think it's stupid, etc.." that just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean He doesn't exist and you won't be judged by Him in the end.

Yes, our lives are very tiny in the big scheme of things. The Bible talks about that a lot. But that doesn't mean you throw everything out the window and do whatever you want. It means you find out what really is important and you do it.

Actually, the Brain is the center control for all matters of the body. It controls emotion, thought, natural instincts, ect. The heart is a muscle in your chest that pumps blood throughout your body, which is an action dominated by, again, the brain. The soul, finally, is an idea, a guess, formed on the lack of knoweldge of what exactly contains who we are. Just as most religion is, it is a lack of knoweldge, explaining what we don't know with ideas. Admittedly, science is much the same thing. The only difference is we KNOW MORE now, and can FIND OUT more.
Uh, not that heart. The symbolic one.

Wow. You athiests are very naive.

Ok, First thing you must understand is that you should STOP CONSIDERING GOD A PERSON. God is an all powerful force that can do ANYTHING! How you people define God is not exactly the real definition.

Second, everyone gives the same argument of you can't make something from nothing. Now by using the definition of God, you will realize that God can make something from nothing? Why? Because God can do anything and everything!

Third, most of you atheists are doing nothing but proving Christianity wrong (which I believe to be the most flawed religion in the world). All evolution vs. Adam and Eve thing is related to Christianity. There is no where in any other religion where it says something like that. The Church made the whole Science vs. Religion. Other religions like Judaism and Hinduism just simply adapt. Those religions embrace the connection between science and religion instead of pulling them apart.

Fourthly, I will now prove God's existence (or attempt to, depends on what you want to believe). Take your keyboard for example. You press the key.

Why did a letter appear on the screen?

1. Because you pressed the key with that specific letter.

But why did that key make the letter on the screen?

2. Because by pressing it down, you completed the circuit which gave you the letter (or something like that).

But why did pressing it down complete a circuit?

3. Because electricity was able to flow by completing the circuit thus causing the letter to appear.

But why did that electricity cause the letter to come up on the screen?

4. Because the electricity flowed through the CPU thus causing the key to be translated into Unicode and interpreted into becoming that specific letter.

See where I am going?

As knowledge on something like this increases, more questions will be answered. But, the more the answers, the more questions there will be. This will thus cause in a constant Q&A that will go on forever; infinity. However, there will be one question Science will never answer.

"Why?"

The only logical answer to that is some omnipotent, omniscient force that can do anything.

Now, I know some of you do not understand this. In order to understand, you have to think outside of the box and you have to have an open mind reading what I just said. Only then will it make sense.

Fifthly, You cant say God doesnt exist because something cannot be created from nothing. God is not something. Its not something you can see with your eyes. God is a force which explains the reason why everything is the way it is.

Lastly, I agree; religion was created to keep the people under control. It gave the people a sense of hope, a sense of something to have faith in and to never give up. It did not really matter whether it was true or not. The idea of religion brought something every human needs every once in a while, Hope. And that should never be looked down upon.

your logic is almost flawless but id like the idea better if you'd stop using the word ''god'' as the term for that all powerfull force ''god'' is a human word and we as stupid humans still cannot comprehend the meaning and power this force has... who knows it might not actualy like to be called god ! an i dont think we'd wanna pi** something like that off....

and common sense supports the existance of a god? sweet baby jesus and the orphans!! Is this still going on!? Get over it already! I'll say it again just for good measure.
Scientific Fact: you can't prove or disprove the existance of god.

considering a being of infinite power and complexity to have always been around exactly why is it so hard to believe that matter, that is infinitly simpler than god, to have always been in existance? and does it really matter? no doubt this is beyond anyone here and, most likely, humanity itself. give it a rest.

Well, the one is theological.... But if you're scientific, you simply cannot "believe that matter... to have always been in existance" simply because cosmologicaly it could not have. Matter did not in fact "exist" till nanoseconds after "first-event".

The search for a larger cause to "Everything" is a fact which must be maintained.... And whatever this "cause" is, does not exist within the normal confines and rules as we know of our observable "universe". Science self-limits itself to substantiable evidence and measurments.... however, much of the "origin", univerally speaking, dealves into the primordial regions where "substance" becomes meaningless. (Science cannot answer everything, because of its limit; this is why we have philosophy [including religion]; which is not constrainted to "substance").

Since you asked, I think you're all retarded. To question the existence of God, is to question one's own existence. For without God there could be nothing else, for the the universe was created ex nihilo.

One thing science has taught us is that there is no evidence for a god, in fact there isn't even evidence for the need for a god.

When has matter EVER appeared from no where.

it does it all the time at a quantum level.

Have you ever had matter materialize next to you while walking around outside? It doesn't happen. No law in science leaves room for matter to materialize uncaused.

Shows how wrong you are.

So it makes no sense that a God created everything... but it makes more sense to say everything created itself?

Look at your watch. If I told you that it made itself, you'd tell me I was out of my fucking mind. Why? It's too complex, and speaks of a creator. Are we not more complex than a watch?

Everything in life has a creator... it doesn't just "happen." Why should the questions of origins be any different? Just wouldn't be right. :rolleyes:

The watch is the work of life, life can create things that is one of its attributes.

Now, nobody is suggesting life sprang fully formed as complex as a man - it didn't. Much simpler life, maybe simpler than any life we see about us now, led by progressive steps to humanity and will lead way beyond us in the future.

You know, religion is the only concept in the world where most people default to the position "it must exist", even when not a shred of evidence exists that suggest that the divine is real. I mean, we discard Santa Clause, dragons and the Tooth Fairy as purest fantasy, but not religion. Amazing.

I disagree. I think the majority do not believe it must exist.

Data is data. We know that certain fundemental rules exist for how the universe works. We *know* that neither matter nor energy can be destroyed, merely converted from one state to another. Something cannot be made from nothing, and something cannot become nothing, either. Why is it so hard for people to accept the idea (based on real physical laws) that all the substance in the universe has always been here, and there is no real beginning and no real end to existance?

That is almost as impossible to believe in as a god. The Big Bang came from nothing, all of space and time came into being at that one instant.

Well, something has to happen after you die..

Well, something has to happen after you die..

Yes, you either rot away or get burnt to a crisp. What else do you think will happen?

Yes, you either rot away or get burnt to a crisp. What else do you think will happen?
well to be totaly honest there bud we all have no idea but to quoteone of einstiens ideas and a scientific fact all energy simply doent just stop it changes say if an object impacts an object its energe is relesed in both kenetic-heat and various other energeys so looking at death from a sceintific veiw.....
1.the electric energy (nervous system and various other bioelectonic systems) shut down
2. tissue degrades and rots
3.bones and hair remain to grow for a short time after death
4.corpse begins to grow warm from the bactiral actions inside the decaying corpse an make various gasses
5.corpse is broken down into variouse elements main parts recegnisable from the corpse are skin and bone (skin to break down at later stage of decay)
6. skeletal remains stay intact as long as cartalage can hold before breakdown

so basical thats it unless u have ur ass set on fire as for the electrical system ive no idea

if ive messed up in any way with the breakdown of a corpse pls quote me and alter it i used the example purely to show u dont just die an leave a nice body it changes after death into various things

it does it all the time at a quantum level.
are you refering to a white hole ?

well to be totaly honest there bud we all have no idea but to quoteone of einstiens ideas and a scientific fact all energy simply doent just stop it changes say if an object impacts an object its energe is relesed in both kenetic-heat and various other energeys so looking at death from a sceintific veiw.....
1.the electric energy (nervous system and various other bioelectonic systems) shut down
2. tissue degrades and rots
3.bones and hair remain to grow for a short time after death

Actually, that is an old-wives-tale. Nothing grows after your death.

4.corpse begins to grow warm from the bactiral actions inside the decaying corpse an make various gasses
5.corpse is broken down into variouse elements main parts recegnisable from the corpse are skin and bone (skin to break down at later stage of decay)
6. skeletal remains stay intact as long as cartalage can hold before breakdown

so basical thats it unless u have ur ass set on fire as for the electrical system ive no idea

if ive messed up in any way with the breakdown of a corpse pls quote me and alter it i used the example purely to show u dont just die an leave a nice body it changes after death into various things

As I said, you either rot away or your get burnt to ashes.

are you refering to a white hole ?

No. We are not even sure they exist.

At a quantum level elimentry particle pairs (mostly protons and anti-protons) are constantly created and almost instantly destroyed. However, at the event horizon of a black hole it is possible for one of the pair to be formed just outside of the EH. This produces what has been termed "Hawking Radiation".

In addition matter can be created within a particle accelerator here on earth.

Why?
The question is irrelevant and meaningless.

Actually, that is an old-wives-tale. Nothing grows after your death. As I said, you either rot away or your get burnt to ashes.
yup that you do but still... what happens to the electrical pulses remaining in the central nervous system and the brain during death ? i was trying to point out that (if your a spiritualist ) with all that decaying matter an gas it may me a case of my fart will go on.....

No. We are not even sure they exist.

At a quantum level elimentry particle pairs (mostly protons and anti-protons) are constantly created and almost instantly destroyed. However, at the event horizon of a black hole it is possible for one of the pair to be formed just outside of the EH. This produces what has been termed "Hawking Radiation".

In addition matter can be created within a particle accelerator here on earth.
so a white hole is kinda like seeking god lol... whoopsy!!! awww well atleast we can ''see'' one of those.
but personaly id hang my bets on elvis crashing in lock ness an hitting nessy in the head with his ufo as a better possibilitythan man finds god on a cloud...

Fourthly, I will now prove God's existence (or attempt to, depends on what you want to believe). Take your keyboard for example. You press the key.

Why did a letter appear on the screen?

1. Because you pressed the key with that specific letter.

But why did that key make the letter on the screen?

2. Because by pressing it down, you completed the circuit which gave you the letter (or something like that).

But why did pressing it down complete a circuit?

3. Because electricity was able to flow by completing the circuit thus causing the letter to appear.

But why did that electricity cause the letter to come up on the screen?

4. Because the electricity flowed through the CPU thus causing the key to be translated into Unicode and interpreted into becoming that specific letter.

See where I am going?

As knowledge on something like this increases, more questions will be answered. But, the more the answers, the more questions there will be. This will thus cause in a constant Q&A that will go on forever; infinity. However, there will be one question Science will never answer.

"Why?"

The only logical answer to that is some omnipotent, omniscient force that can do anything.

Now, I know some of you do not understand this. In order to understand, you have to think outside of the box and you have to have an open mind reading what I just said. Only then will it make sense.


Why do you want a life in which you have a high paying job that you enjoy and a loving family which you return home to everyday?


Does it really make sense to ask that question?
There are many logical answers to the limitless questions of why...and one of them is simply because we ENJOY.

True, when your life is pretty screwed up and all, you do want to ask why the heck your parents gave birth to you and what is your purpose in life? And of course, having a purpose thrown to you by your religion sounds like a good way out. But when our standard of living starts to improve, the "why" question becomes redundant.

Besides, why should we be granted a purpose by some divine being? We are not His tools are we? Created just for some weird psycho experiments? Isn't it better to have our own purpose? Our own goals and dreams without getting ruled over by God Himself?

Oh yeah...God gave us free will so that we can actually have our own purpose. He just made it looked like he didn't. In that case, He can't fault me for not believing in Him can he? Moreover, why does He want us all to believe in Him, is He insecure?

Maybe it's because unlike you we belive that with all the wonders of the universe and the greatness of nature that there must be something out there i cannot belive that something so complicated yet so great can be made of chance and circumstances that have a 0.000001% chance of every happening look at your body the most complicated machine on earth and very much the universe is that made by chance a one in a billion chance how can it? and if you read books of science it makes things even more complicated so if there is more complication how does this all happen by chance can you break a block of iron with a peanut the logical answer is no
but say every is made by chance all of a sudden even tho the chances are even less likely it has to be true because we found this and that.

Sorry but i dont see the prove in finding 500,000 year old bones and saying that what a this animal was ever thought that the animal just became exctinct. 5 years ago they said the homo-sapian race was only 15,000 year old then they find bones in africa dating it to 40,000 so that means even science can be wrounge on things it's ''100%'' sure about call me stupid or whatever im simply writing this to get you to understand that i wasnt converted because of guilt or i was feeling lonely and sad or whatever i converted because i looked at the bigger picture i dont just listen to what other people tell me and i wish other people would start looking for themeselves i bet most of these atheist in this topic havent even looked at a bible or another spirtual guide and get there information from teachers from class or peer-pressure from friends open your mind and it is amazing what you can find so please if you read this and dont comment i know i made heaps of mistakes in this bit writing isint my strounge point but i didnt write it to get teased or to get attention but to tell atheist to start looking beyond that box which so many of you trap yourselves in and start looking beyond if you do you will see there is just as much evidence for a god then there is for evolution.

yup that you do but still... what happens to the electrical pulses remaining in the central nervous system and the brain during death ? i was trying to point out that (if your a spiritualist ) with all that decaying matter an gas it may me a case of my fart will go on.....

The electrical activity dies. It is a very small current which can only exist while the chemical reactions of the living brain carry on.

There is no scientific evidence for a spirit that survives death.

Maybe it's because unlike you we belive that with all the wonders of the universe and the greatness of nature that there must be something out there

But nobody has been able to find a single iota of evidence for this "something".

i cannot belive that something so complicated yet so great can be made of chance and circumstances that have a 0.000001% chance of every happening look at your body the most complicated machine on earth and very much the universe is that made by chance a one in a billion chance how can it?

Where do you get this "one in a billion" from? Do you not understand the concept of evolution?

and if you read books of science it makes things even more complicated so if there is more complication how does this all happen by chance

It doesn't happen by chance, it happens in the way science tells us.

can you break a block of iron with a peanut the logical answer is no

Yes, quite easy in fact.

but say every is made by chance all of a sudden even tho the chances are even less likely it has to be true because we found this and that.

Sorry but i dont see the prove in finding 500,000 year old bones and saying that what a this animal was ever thought that the animal just became exctinct. 5 years ago they said the homo-sapian race was only 15,000 year old then they find bones in africa dating it to 40,000 so that means even science can be wrounge on things it's ''100%'' sure about call me stupid or whatever im simply writing this to get you to understand that i wasnt converted because of guilt or i was feeling lonely and sad or whatever i converted because i looked at the bigger picture i dont just listen to what other people tell me and i wish other people would start looking for themeselves i bet most of these atheist in this topic havent even looked at a bible or another spirtual guide and get there information from teachers from class or peer-pressure from friends open your mind and it is amazing what you can find so please if you read this and dont comment i know i made heaps of mistakes in this bit writing isint my strounge point but i didnt write it to get teased or to get attention but to tell atheist to start looking beyond that box which so many of you trap yourselves in and start looking beyond if you do you will see there is just as much evidence for a god then there is for evolution.

I was raised a christian, going to church and sunday school. As I grew up I started to ask questions, questions the church had no answer for. The chuch said "you just have to have faith." Well, sorry, but faith doesn't cut it. Science gave the answers, it was open and testable. Science didn't try to hide behind mystical incantations or demand the I just had to have faith. In short, science told the truth.

so a white hole is kinda like seeking god lol... whoopsy!!! awww well atleast we can ''see'' one of those.
but personaly id hang my bets on elvis crashing in lock ness an hitting nessy in the head with his ufo as a better possibilitythan man finds god on a cloud...

Far from it. White Holes are predicted, just as black holes were. Try reading http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=108 which does a good job of explaing things.

Hope this helps.

I was raised a christian, going to church and sunday school. As I grew up I started to ask questions, questions the church had no answer for. The chuch said "you just have to have faith." Well, sorry, but faith doesn't cut it. Science gave the answers, it was open and testable. Science didn't try to hide behind mystical incantations or demand the I just had to have faith. In short, science told the truth.

In some cases i agree with science im not a christian who looks at science and goes "i cant read that" i read the origin of species and multiple other books that explain evolution i just couldnt see the logic it's like apes and humans we both have over 90% the same DNA but yet even tho that is a fact we cant interbreed and the only thing similar is the way our bones are madeup most animals have about 50% of the same DNA but they look nothing like us. I will say this you where rasied a christian i was converted usally people who growup in that enviroment dont like the church because they lose respect and find it boring and the sad thing is christian dont seem to study there religion that often which is the biggist mistake we can make i have i got 2 bookshelves fall of books about church history and gone threw each one and thing is the people you asked quite frankly couldnt give you answers because they didnt know them either and thought that faith is enough i belive faith has a big role but understanding must come in somewhere also go threw those bars which the denominations can place denominations is one thing the church can do without but onice you start looking for fact about the christian religion which i bet you didnt you will understand things that no church can teach you only you can find the answer and the evidence and dont worry this is a message to other christians not just Brenchley just look and stop listening to other people even the priest/pastors can be somewhat lacking in Knowleage so im just saying look for yourself thats all if your a atheist well i might not like it but dosnt mean i just going to grind to a halt with disgust in my face most of my friends are atheist 2 are even Wicca (non-practicing so also atheist) so i dont really care i just sometimes get annoyed by the things some atheist and christians say on these forums that make me go "wait thats wrounge" so please if you read this actually study your religion or the science you so belief in.

Besides this isint a big question just a question with many answers everybody has there reason and writing forums like this make less secure christians lashout because real christians should try there best to CONTROL THERE ANGER

[QUOTE=Brenchley]But nobody has been able to find a single iota of evidence for this "something".

Where do you get this "one in a billion" from? Do you not understand the concept of evolution?

It doesn't happen by chance, it happens in the way science tells us.QUOTE]

Yes it does natural selection isint that a term used by evolutionist that by CHANCE a certain species come from one thing to another also there was a billion to one if not bigger chance of the universe ever comming together from nothing i wasnt talking about evolution but about the creation of the very universe itself the whole concept of big bang and evolution is based and CHANCE event happen at CERTAIN TIMES in CERTAIN WAY that are impossible without some form of powerful being to put it together

Besides didnt i say that if you LOOK you can find just as much evidence for a god as there is to evolution so the top comment i take it means you wernt reading my comment which automatically makes me lose interest in anything you have to say because that proberly you attitude towards everything eles like every atheist you dont seem to listen nomatter what us christians say because you dont understand anything we say nomatter how much we explain soemtimes notmatter how simply it is put just look that was the message and i must admit that your arrogants has annoyed me because i clearly put out my views which was all i wanted to say i didnt want a comment just for onice i wanted people to listen to something and not bite back as soon has i handed out meat now if you dont mind i going to go meet some friends so i will end this discussion on the grounds of please listen before you reply because i find nothing more annoying. :headbang:

In some cases i agree with science im not a christian who looks at science and goes "i cant read that" i read the origin of species and multiple other books that explain evolution i just couldnt see the logic it's like apes and humans we both have over 90% the same DNA but yet even tho that is a fact we cant interbreed and the only thing similar is the way our bones are madeup most animals have about 50% of the same DNA but they look nothing like us.

The chimp shares over 95% the same DNA as us, but that extra few percent makes all the difference.

I will say this you where rasied a christian i was converted usally people who growup in that enviroment dont like the church because they lose respect and find it boring and the sad thing is christian dont seem to study there religion that often which is the biggist mistake we can make i have i got 2 bookshelves fall of books about church history and gone threw each one and thing is the people you asked quite frankly couldnt give you answers because they didnt know them either and thought that faith is enough i belive faith has a big role but understanding must come in somewhere also go threw those bars which the denominations can place denominations is one thing the church can do without but onice you start looking for fact about the christian religion which i bet you didnt you will understand things that no church can teach you only you can find the answer and the evidence

The [rpblem is that there is NO evidence and so there are no answers from religion.

and dont worry this is a message to other christians not just Brenchley just look and stop listening to other people even the priest/pastors can be somewhat lacking in Knowleage so im just saying look for yourself thats all if your a atheist well i might not like it but dosnt mean i just going to grind to a halt with disgust in my face most of my friends are atheist 2 are even Wicca (non-practicing so also atheist) so i dont really care i just sometimes get annoyed by the things some atheist and christians say on these forums that make me go "wait thats wrounge" so please if you read this actually study your religion or the science you so belief in.

Believe me when I say I've studied long and hard and still continue to read. However, science has the answers, religion just has the fairy tales.

[QUOTE=Brenchley]But nobody has been able to find a single iota of evidence for this "something".

Where do you get this "one in a billion" from? Do you not understand the concept of evolution?

It doesn't happen by chance, it happens in the way science tells us.QUOTE]

Yes it does natural selection isint that a term used by evolutionist that by CHANCE a certain species come from one thing to another

No, it isn't by chance (though the mutation that gives one line an advantage is random) its by natural selection.

also there was a billion to one if not bigger chance of the universe ever comming together from nothing

No, the odds are 50/50. Either there is a universe or there isn't.

i wasnt talking about evolution but about the creation of the very universe itself the whole concept of big bang and evolution is based and CHANCE event happen at CERTAIN TIMES in CERTAIN WAY that are impossible without some form of powerful being to put it together

The BB and evolution have nothing to do with each other. From the Big Bang to today everyhtinh that has happened is explainable by science. There is no need for a supernatural being in control.

Besides didnt i say that if you LOOK you can find just as much evidence for a god as there is to evolution

You did, but you were wrong. The is no evidence for god(s), if there were then there would be a lot of religious people here posting it.

so the top comment i take it means you wernt reading my comment which automatically makes me lose interest in anything you have to say because that proberly you attitude towards everything eles like every atheist you dont seem to listen nomatter what us christians say because you dont understand anything we say nomatter how much we explain soemtimes notmatter how simply it is put just look that was the message

How can I look at the evidence when there is none? Not one single iota of evidence. Doesn't that tell you something?

and i must admit that your arrogants has annoyed me because i clearly put out my views which was all i wanted to say i didnt want a comment just for onice i wanted people to listen to something and not bite back as soon has i handed out meat now if you dont mind i going to go meet some friends so i will end this discussion on the grounds of please listen before you reply because i find nothing more annoying. :headbang:

How can I listen when there is nothing to here? How can I see when there is nothing there? Where is YOUR evidence?

Of course we should become gods! I can't believe anyone would question that. Hasn't that been our goal since Eve ate from the tree of knowledge? If she had eaten from the tree of life first she would now be a god.(But I suppose that was one of the things she was ignorant of before.)

The goal of any real, passionate human is to be a god. That's why we created them in the first place. Faust told the devil that he would walk happily into Hell, never to know pleasure again, if he could become God for just an instant.

I'd like to take this opportunity to encourage everyone here to read The Satanic Bible, if you haven't already done so. (Just the first two parts, the rest is crap, and LeVay himself tells you so, if you read between the lines.)

One more thing: The universe exists because if it didn't we wouldn't be talking about why it exists. You Christians need to accept that life is nothing but the result of a statistical anomaly. It's not so bad. you'll enjoy life a hell of a lot more, I guarantee.

Fifthly, You cant say God doesnt exist because something cannot be created from nothing. God is not something. Its not something you can see with your eyes. God is a force which explains the reason why everything is the way it is.

In other words, god is the natural laws of the universe. Is that what you mean?

Anyone talking about the Big Bang should get a recent physics book and read up on String Theory. I admit it is hard to understand, but i'm sure most of you could get it.(Maybe not you fundamentalists.)

Actually, I've realized just now this answers one question, but now people can ask what created the world outside ours. Damn! Thought I had it for a second. Oh well, back to the drawing board. :)

The electrical activity dies. It is a very small current which can only exist while the chemical reactions of the living brain carry on.

There is no scientific evidence for a spirit that survives death.

i wasnt refering to any kind of spirit or soul just the electrical activity i was intrested as to what happned is all engergy just doesnt die it is dissapated into other forms of energy

Why do you want a life in which you have a high paying job that you enjoy and a loving family which you return home to everyday?


Does it really make sense to ask that question?
There are many logical answers to the limitless questions of why...and one of them is simply because we ENJOY.

True, when your life is pretty screwed up and all, you do want to ask why the heck your parents gave birth to you and what is your purpose in life? And of course, having a purpose thrown to you by your religion sounds like a good way out. But when our standard of living starts to improve, the "why" question becomes redundant.

Besides, why should we be granted a purpose by some divine being? We are not His tools are we? Created just for some weird psycho experiments? Isn't it better to have our own purpose? Our own goals and dreams without getting ruled over by God Himself?

Oh yeah...God gave us free will so that we can actually have our own purpose. He just made it looked like he didn't. In that case, He can't fault me for not believing in Him can he? Moreover, why does He want us all to believe in Him, is He insecure?

i didnt type that it was a quote from Ubershizasianaxis look at the start of the thread

My personal experience taught me that no matter how detailes science gets and how many answers it provides, people will still need the emotional security offered by religion. Although religion might change in a way, people seem to have the need to feel like they could control things.

Take the catastrophe in New Orleans as the most recent example. It was a natural disaster. Simple as that. It isn't the most complicated part of science, meteorology has been around a few years. Yet, somehow, people refused to believe that all this happened without intellect and purpose. In the past centuries they would have called it a punishment from god (as they did call the great fire of London, for example), today they are blaming humanity for global warming, the French for building the town where it is today and the government for not being able to prevent the situation from escalating.

Obviously, humans find it very hard indeed to accept nature as inanimate and without purpose, just following the laws of physics. Humans need to feel more important than that, they need to feel singled out, special. They can't cope with being basically no more important than the next cat or horseshoe crab, they refuse to be treated just like all the other biomatter on the planet. If something happens to them, it has to be god. It has to be the big guy who created the whole place, they won't settle for less.
The same is true for almost all other situations in life...

Only once people have overcome this general psychosis and have gained a more humble perspective on the world, only then are they able to cast aside these megalomaniac concepts and simply accept their place in the univers. As a carbon-based lifeform of minimal life-expectancy that evolved on a tiny, insignificant planet in one of the indistinct outer arms of an ordinary, regular galaxy....

Let's think about it.

God was created by human minds because humans could not control their environment, or their destiny.


Not nessecarly. That comes directly from the idea that God does not exist.

just because there is no evidence you are able to comprehend that there is a god doesnt mena that there isnt a god. i cant see any evidence in todays world that there was some primordial ooze, that doesnt mean that didnt exist. i dont see any evidence from where im standing that the earth is round, but that doesnt mean its flat. science is always changing, kind of make you want to question alot of its theories.
On the other hand if there is no evidence to support the existence of a god, why would you believe in one? Could be a god or gods, but there isn't really any reason to believe there is, so I won't.

It's pretty easy to see evidence of a round earth. eg. The earths shadow on the moon is round, the mast of a ship appearing first on the horizon and disappearing last. Ships and planes can circumnavigate the world, etc.

Yes science is always changing, that's because it changes to include new evidence. Would you rather believe in something that rejects evidence that challenges it so that it will remain as static as possible, or in something that takes a look at itself and reevaluates its position when new evidence is discovered in a never ending quest to get as close to the truth as possible?
I guess the real question is; do you want peace of mind, or the truth?

there are thousands of Christian scientists who will tell you that science and religion are compatible and that the they do not pull each other apart. Science and religion are not compatible. For them to coexist each must ignore the other. Since religion is based on Faith, ie. a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Where science is based on logical proofs and material evidence.
The two cannot be combined, without selectivly ignoring the tenents of science or not having faith in your religion.

...because no real physical laws support that all the substance in the universe has always been here. Neither does common sense. You are exactly correct. The idea is counter intuitive and cannot be proven. However, here we hit a trap. Because it is also counter intuitive and to suppose that the universe came into being. What was there before the universe? God? That is essentially saying the same thing, since it is as equally unprovable and counter intuitive to suppose that God has existed for ever as it is to say that the universe has.
Or has god/the universe not been here forever. What was there before? Nothing? Just as bad again.

we'd have to have souls because they are the very things that we can't live without (this is a dumb reply but oh well). Screw science, we need souls to survive. They are the very things that contain our esccence (bad spelling) and personality, and possibly the very thing we need to be judged by God - cast into Hell or live in solitude in Heaven. Very interesting, of course you can back this up, or are you just blowing smoke?

God allows things like the Holocaust and 9/11 to happen because He has given man free will to do whatever he wants, and these are the things man chooses to do. Would you rather have been created a mindless robot that did whatever God wanted?
So he just sits back and watches us hang ourselves. What an arsehole, he wont even help innocent children who just get caught up in it? What about natural disasters, did he cause Katrina, or the Tsunami?
Why the hell should this guy be venerated?

Life sucks, then you get condemned to hell. Unless of course you spend your whole life kissing His arse while he's f#cking yours.
Sounds like a real top bloke.

I was just trying to point out to all of you who say, "well I'm not going to believe in God because I don't want to-- I think it's stupid, etc.." that just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean He doesn't exist and you won't be judged by Him in the end. Just like not believing in the Aesir and Einherjar doesn't mean that they won't march to battle come Ragnarok.

Well, something has to happen after you die.. Why does something have to happen? There's a kind of desperation in your statement, you afraid that there will just be nothing?

i wasnt refering to any kind of spirit or soul just the electrical activity i was intrested as to what happned is all engergy just doesnt die it is dissapated into other forms of energy

But without the chemical reactions of life the electrical signals cannot exist. And actually, the amount of energy involved is tiny.

Not nessecarly. That comes directly from the idea that God does not exist.

But s/he doesn't exist. The is not one single scrap of evidence for the existant of god(s).

The watch is the work of life, life can create things that is one of its attributes.

Now, nobody is suggesting life sprang fully formed as complex as a man - it didn't. Much simpler life, maybe simpler than any life we see about us now, led by progressive steps to humanity and will lead way beyond us in the future.

The complexity isn't the point. The life ITSELF is the point. The consciousness, the self awareness, the animate. Complexity of the being isn't life.

No. We are not even sure they exist.

At a quantum level elimentry particle pairs (mostly protons and anti-protons) are constantly created and almost instantly destroyed. However, at the event horizon of a black hole it is possible for one of the pair to be formed just outside of the EH. This produces what has been termed "Hawking Radiation".

In addition matter can be created within a particle accelerator here on earth.

matter created within a particle accelerator is NOT created from nothing nor is it without cause.
Matter does not create itself from nothing.

But s/he doesn't exist. The is not one single scrap of evidence for the existant of god(s).

lack of evidence is not equivelant to lack of existance.

You are exactly correct. The idea is counter intuitive and cannot be proven. However, here we hit a trap. Because it is also counter intuitive and to suppose that the universe came into being. What was there before the universe? God? That is essentially saying the same thing, since it is as equally unprovable and counter intuitive to suppose that God has existed for ever as it is to say that the universe has.
Or has god/the universe not been here forever. What was there before? Nothing? Just as bad again.

We know that matter cannot create itself. Laws of nature don't allow it. We do NOT know what God can and cannot do. Science hasn't figured that one out yet. While the laws of science prove matter cannot create itself, those laws don't necessarily apply to a god. A god MIGHT be able to create itself, who knows?

But without the chemical reactions of life the electrical signals cannot exist. And actually, the amount of energy involved is tiny.

true the electrical signals are tiny but they still exist even if they are dissapated by the bodys own intrnal risitace level(ohms) the thing still remains the signals are use an dissapated either in heat- light- radiation- sound- or kenetic- energy however minute

and i hope u are refering to the ''life'' of the electrical signals as time compaired as in radiation or we open that spirit convo again lol tk bud an nice science

The complexity isn't the point. The life ITSELF is the point. The consciousness, the self awareness, the animate. Complexity of the being isn't life.


But life did not start out as a complex, self-aware creature like man. It started as single cell organisms at least 3,500,000,000 years ago. Don't confuse one with the other.

matter created within a particle accelerator is NOT created from nothing nor is it without cause.
Matter does not create itself from nothing.

Matter is created from energy in an accelerator. ALL matter is created from energy, either from the Big Bang, from quantum flux or in the depths of stars.

For the first few seconds of the universe there was no matter - only energy. Even if there is no Big Crunch then all the matter in the universe will eventually decay into energy. Matter is only important because we are made from it,

lack of evidence is not equivelant to lack of existance.

Lack of evidence for even the need for a god to have existed is evidence that he does not.

We know that matter cannot create itself. Laws of nature don't allow it. We do NOT know what God can and cannot do. Science hasn't figured that one out yet. While the laws of science prove matter cannot create itself, those laws don't necessarily apply to a god. A god MIGHT be able to create itself, who knows?

E=MC^2

Oh God, when will the posting end?!

But life did not start out as a complex, self-aware creature like man. It started as single cell organisms at least 3,500,000,000 years ago. Don't confuse one with the other.

it still had to go from inanimate to animate. complexity has nothing to do with that.

Lack of evidence for even the need for a god to have existed is evidence that he does not.
Actually, the sheer number of people who believe in god is in itself evidence of a need.

Matter is created from energy in an accelerator. ALL matter is created from energy, either from the Big Bang, from quantum flux or in the depths of stars.

For the first few seconds of the universe there was no matter - only energy. Even if there is no Big Crunch then all the matter in the universe will eventually decay into energy. Matter is only important because we are made from it,

its also important that it came from somewhere. The energy, too, had to be generated from somewhere.

But s/he doesn't exist. The is not one single scrap of evidence for the existant of god(s).

There is loads. Many people just dont accept it

Lack of evidence for even the need for a god to have existed is evidence that he does not.

no it isn't.

There is loads. Many people just dont accept it

exactly. There is LOTS of evidence. What they mean when they say no evidence is no proof.

*snip*
Obviously, humans find it very hard indeed to accept nature as inanimate and without purpose, just following the laws of physics. Humans need to feel more important than that, they need to feel singled out, special. They can't cope with being basically no more important than the next cat or horseshoe crab, they refuse to be treated just like all the other biomatter on the planet. If something happens to them, it has to be god. It has to be the big guy who created the whole place, they won't settle for less.
The same is true for almost all other situations in life...

Only once people have overcome this general psychosis and have gained a more humble perspective on the world, only then are they able to cast aside these megalomaniac concepts and simply accept their place in the univers. As a carbon-based lifeform of minimal life-expectancy that evolved on a tiny, insignificant planet in one of the indistinct outer arms of an ordinary, regular galaxy....
I think it is resisting the idea of god that creates a psychosis. Humans feel. Humans care. It is not unreasonable that because they do, they also need the universe to feel for and care for them. In neolithic Mediterranean cultures, earth/nature/god was a Mother, the giver of life and the one who nourishes all her "children" with food stuffs from her "body". To accept that nature is mindless and heartless is the modern odd-ball way of thinking: it creates an inner conflict between what we know and what we feel to be true.

If people accepted that the nuturing, feeling nature/universe/god is symbolic, a valid symbol that they can hold in their hearts and carry with them through their whole lives, the conflict and the psychosis falls away. God doesn't have to be real to fill that void; the symbol serves perfectly, as it can sit in the heart (of the imagination) as long as we need it to. As long as it stays there, we can reconcile inner imagination with outer reality. Any attempt to bring the symbol out into the real world causes it to vanish the moment it leaves our lips.

Does god exist? Has anyone here proven god exists? Has anyone here proven god doesn't exist? what..? no? i thought so...

why do people insist on using this as an example, completely different, chinese whispers you hear a phrase once and only once, and even at that it is being whispered into your ear, when people whisper they tend to not pronounce the words correctly, which leads to misunderstanding and thinking of a completely different word, or phrase. oral stories were repeated over and over again, they were memorized, people knew them word for word.

if the creation story was a oral story that changed over the years, i ask you this, why didnt it turn out like most other stories that were passed down orally. beowulf, for example, there are many differnt versions of that same story, because people adopted it different people added different pats into it, there are many different versions but they all have the same basic story, just different ways of describing what went on. as for the creation story, there is one. in mayn different cultures too. its still the same, the one story.

i didn't say the whole bible was wrong... but you have to admit that there are certain inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. i doubt oral tradition wasn't without interpretation and others spread their views... it may get washed down and confused with opinions. and i use chinese whispers as it is the only basic comparison i can make. the bible isn't without it's flaws, which is understandable as it was written by people People make mistakes... the basic idea may not disappear but opinions of it can make it very different... for example, some believe exactly what's in the bible- that god crteated the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th and he made adam and eve... and all that... while others can believe that the 7 days, could mean over a period of thousands, millions or even billions of years and that during that time god made evolution, etc, take place as the bible often uses indirect terms

exactly. There is LOTS of evidence. What they mean when they say no evidence is no proof.

You cannot have proof without evidence, So far there has been no evidence put forward on this or other threads.

Care to change that?

Does god exist? Has anyone here proven god exists? Has anyone here proven god doesn't exist? what..? no? i thought so...

Has anyone found some evidence for the existance of a god?

Has anyone found some evidence for the existance of a god?

well, what if they do? would that make much of a difference? religion is about faith and faith is about believing in something, no matter what. if there was proof it wouldn't really be faith in god, just knowledge of him...

its also important that it came from somewhere. The energy, too, had to be generated from somewhere.

Why?

i didn't say the whole bible was wrong... but you have to admit that there are certain inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. i doubt oral tradition wasn't without interpretation and others spread their views... it may get washed down and confused with opinions. and i use chinese whispers as it is the only basic comparison i can make. the bible isn't without it's flaws, which is understandable as it was written by people People make mistakes... the basic idea may not disappear but opinions of it can make it very different... for example, some believe exactly what's in the bible- that god crteated the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th and he made adam and eve... and all that... while others can believe that the 7 days, could mean over a period of thousands, millions or even billions of years and that during that time god made evolution, etc, take place as the bible often uses indirect terms

one such contradiction is (who killed goliath?). David did in 1 Samuel 17:50 but in 2 Sam. 21:19, Elhanan did. it has been labeled as a copyist error. which means there is an error in the supposed word of god...

one such contradiction is (who killed goliath?). David did in 1 Samuel 17:50 but in 2 Sam. 21:19, Elhanan did. it has been labeled as a copyist error. which means there is an error in the supposed word of god...
The battle between David and Goliath took place in The Valley of Elah. It would not surprise me one iota if Elhanan was a local folk hero, and that the story was 'borrowed' by scribes and attributed to David post-Kingship.

(Wouldn't surprise me, either, if the hero was not "Elhanan", but "the Elhanan".)

one such contradiction is (who killed goliath?). David did in 1 Samuel 17:50 but in 2 Sam. 21:19, Elhanan did. it has been labeled as a copyist error. which means there is an error in the supposed word of god...
please..
..if you're going to read the bible.. don't read it as an historical record..
..if you're going to read the bible in search of god.. all you'll find is human arrogance and an all too human myth..
if you're going to read the bible at all.. don't..

The battle between David and Goliath took place in The Valley of Elah. It would not surprise me one iota if Elhanan was a local folk hero, and that the story was 'borrowed' by scribes and attributed to David post-Kingship.

thats exactly what i think happened ;)

one such contradiction is (who killed goliath?). David did in 1 Samuel 17:50 but in 2 Sam. 21:19, Elhanan did. it has been labeled as a copyist error. which means there is an error in the supposed word of god...
Not to mention the fact that the Bible has been edited and translated repeatedly, from one language to the next. Every word holds significance but not all can be properly translated into the next language. Not to mention that it was supposedly written by a bunch of people who thought they were the only people to "know" this information; thus their own interpretations and bias were undoubtably included.

The Bible may be a reference for SOME good morals, but overall it's just another text. To quote a Chana Bloch poem: "Like turning the pages of a book the teacher assigned—/You ought to read it, she said./It's great literature."

please..
..if you're going to read the bible.. don't read it as an historical record..
..if you're going to read the bible in search of god.. all you'll find is human arrogance and an all too human myth..
if you're going to read the bible at all.. don't..

:confused:

please..
..if you're going to read the bible.. don't read it as an historical record..
..if you're going to read the bible in search of god.. all you'll find is human arrogance and an all too human myth..
if you're going to read the bible at all.. don't..

well, know, don't dismiss the bible entirely... it has certain teachings, such as love thy neighbour as you would yourself, which we can learn from... though this may be contradicted by the certain vengeful nature god is sometimes portrayed as in the bible....

Not to mention the fact that the Bible has been edited and translated repeatedly, from one language to the next. Every word holds significance but not all can be properly translated into the next language. Not to mention that it was supposedly written by a bunch of people who thought they were the only people to "know" this information; thus their own interpretations and bias were undoubtably included.

The Bible may be a reference for SOME good morals, but overall it's just another text. To quote a Chana Bloch poem: "Like turning the pages of a book the teacher assigned—/You ought to read it, she said./It's great literature."

my sentiments... almost... exactly ;)

The battle between David and Goliath took place in The Valley of Elah. It would not surprise me one iota if Elhanan was a local folk hero, and that the story was 'borrowed' by scribes and attributed to David post-Kingship.

(Wouldn't surprise me, either, if the hero was not "Elhanan", but "the Elhanan".)

Or maybe Elhanan is one who resides in Elah. Like Hoberbudt could be known as the Dallasite or a Texan.

exactly. There is LOTS of evidence. What they mean when they say no evidence is no proof.
No, we mean no evidence.

Actually, the sheer number of people who believe in god is in itself evidence of a need.
No, it's evidence of the belief.

The chimp shares over 95% the same DNA as us, but that extra few percent makes all the difference.



The [rpblem is that there is NO evidence and so there are no answers from religion.



Believe me when I say I've studied long and hard and still continue to read. However, science has the answers, religion just has the fairy tales.

I said to look LOOK sure i said look at books but im also saying to look at things out there thats all i am saying besides one thing i say even if christianity is based on false things can you at least respect what christian laws and morals have done for the western world most laws in western countries are based on christian ethics look at the laws of whatever country you come from and you will see now if you dont mind i grow tired of trying to explain my point of view i wasnt giving evidence i dont need to defend my religion because i am better then that i dont need to prove you wrounge just to get my faithup im just saying to look there is evidence your just to blind or to lazy if you find more evidence good post it here i wont see it because i got better things to do then argue with you stop listening to one side of the story and get another so good luck and farewell but i clearly have better things to do right now.

I said to look LOOK sure i said look at books but im also saying to look at things out there thats all i am saying besides one thing i say even if christianity is based on false things can you at least respect what christian laws and morals have done for the western world most laws in western countries are based on christian ethics look at the laws of whatever country you come from

Christain laws have been a stone around humanities neck since there invention.

Why?

are we going to discuss zero point energy now.. ? (dunno much about it but dayum i know its good stuff a cupfull could in theory vaporise the worlds water in a nanosecond lol)

Christain laws have been a stone around humanities neck since there invention.

na to be exact the : im better than you becouse i worshep (insert deity here) so your going to hell (insert laughter here) and if we feel you dissagree with us we will either kill ostrasize or try to attack you in any way we deem fit simply becouse we are better.
attitude is the problem in may religions unfortunatly we forgot the one thing that binds us all our blood is red (dont get technical i know about oxagenated an deoxgenated blood cells im using the term as an example) our hearts beat we all eat shit love an die so why do we wish to tear eachother a new a-hole so much answer... becouse some **** an age ago thought hmmm im gonna attempt to rule the world thrugh the power of writing,
we are all human for our faults so lets just forget the double talk about god an wrath an hell fire follow what u will but just dont push it on anyone i respet or try to respect all religion but even i have had the in your face convert or die thrown at me an i have seen religious bigatory without need, we all live on this dirtball of a planet so lets try to keep living without trying to blow or shoot or otherwise hurt one another!!
tk peeps im off to bed

I said to look LOOK sure i said look at books but im also saying to look at things out there thats all i am saying besides one thing i say even if christianity is based on false things can you at least respect what christian laws and morals have done for the western world most laws in western countries are based on christian ethics look at the laws of whatever country you come from and you will see now if you dont mind i grow tired of trying to explain my point of view i wasnt giving evidence i dont need to defend my religion because i am better then that i dont need to prove you wrounge just to get my faithup im just saying to look there is evidence your just to blind or to lazy if you find more evidence good post it here i wont see it because i got better things to do then argue with you stop listening to one side of the story and get another so good luck and farewell but i clearly have better things to do right now.

You know, it would make life a lot easier (for all of us) if you learnt how to write. There is this idea in the English language that you use punctuation to make your text readable.


You make several mistakes. First, you claim "christian ethics" are at the heart of things. Rubbish. Total absolute BULL! Most people learn to get on with their fellow man, what we see in NATURAL ETHICS - it is natural for people to get on the way they do. you ignore the majority that do not have anthing to do with Juwish/Christian traditions or elthics.

Next, you ask that I (and others) look for evidence and you will not accept the simple fact that there is none. If you believe otherwise then it is up to YOU to provide the evidence you have found - and then be prepared to debate your evidence to see if it stands up to examination.

Frankly, much better men than you have tried, and failed. If top religious people can't produce the evidence for a god that stands up to study then how the hell do you expect to fare?

So where is YOUR evidence. It really is a case of put-up or shut-up. If you want to debate then debate properly.

well, what if they do? would that make much of a difference? religion is about faith and faith is about believing in something, no matter what. if there was proof it wouldn't really be faith in god, just knowledge of him...

Yes it would. Faith is chidish, knowledge is important.

I said to look LOOK sure i said look at books but im also saying to look at things out there thats all i am saying besides one thing i say even if christianity is based on false things can you at least respect what christian laws and morals have done for the western world most laws in western countries are based on christian ethics look at the laws of whatever country you come from and you will see now if you dont mind i grow tired of trying to explain my point of view i wasnt giving evidence i dont need to defend my religion because i am better then that i dont need to prove you wrounge just to get my faithup im just saying to look there is evidence your just to blind or to lazy if you find more evidence good post it here i wont see it because i got better things to do then argue with you stop listening to one side of the story and get another so good luck and farewell but i clearly have better things to do right now.

Please, for the love of Elvis, use at least a semblance of grammatical structure- periods, paragraphs, punctuation; you know.... English! I have a hard time giving anyone credibility when they can't show they at least have the education to present their arguments in a coherent manner. :mad:

You know, it would make life a lot easier (for all of us) if you learnt how to write. There is this idea in the English language that you use punctuation to make your text readable.


You make several mistakes. First, you claim "christian ethics" are at the heart of things. Rubbish. Total absolute BULL! Most people learn to get on with their fellow man, what we see in NATURAL ETHICS - it is natural for people to get on the way they do. you ignore the majority that do not have anthing to do with Juwish/Christian traditions or elthics.

Next, you ask that I (and others) look for evidence and you will not accept the simple fact that there is none. If you believe otherwise then it is up to YOU to provide the evidence you have found - and then be prepared to debate your evidence to see if it stands up to examination.

Frankly, much better men than you have tried, and failed. If top religious people can't produce the evidence for a god that stands up to study then how the hell do you expect to fare?

So where is YOUR evidence. It really is a case of put-up or shut-up. If you want to debate then debate properly.

well... that justabout killed the thread lmao good point tho bud ;)

You know, it would make life a lot easier (for all of us) if you learnt how to write. There is this idea in the English language that you use punctuation to make your text readable.


You make several mistakes. First, you claim "christian ethics" are at the heart of things. Rubbish. Total absolute BULL! Most people learn to get on with their fellow man, what we see in NATURAL ETHICS - it is natural for people to get on the way they do. you ignore the majority that do not have anthing to do with Juwish/Christian traditions or elthics.

Next, you ask that I (and others) look for evidence and you will not accept the simple fact that there is none. If you believe otherwise then it is up to YOU to provide the evidence you have found - and then be prepared to debate your evidence to see if it stands up to examination.

Frankly, much better men than you have tried, and failed. If top religious people can't produce the evidence for a god that stands up to study then how the hell do you expect to fare?

So where is YOUR evidence. It really is a case of put-up or shut-up. If you want to debate then debate properly.

How? What does salt taste like?

How? What does salt taste like?

Why it tastes like salt of course :)

are we going to discuss zero point energy now.. ? (dunno much about it but dayum i know its good stuff a cupfull could in theory vaporise the worlds water in a nanosecond lol)

You will find a good article on the subject at http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

HTH.

Christain laws have been a stone around humanities neck since there invention.

Christians didn't invent any laws, they just picked the ones they liked from a number of other sources.

people have been believing in god their whole lives and have based their whole personalities and thought processes around the idea of the supernatural. in fact,people have been believing in god in some form or another for all of human history. do you really expect a fearful,egotistical creature such as man to admit that millions of humans have been wrong? it would mean their our whole society and way of life is built around a mass delusion. most people cant handle that. it shows how silly and flawed us "higher animals" really are. without something to believe in,a higher purpose if you will,society would break down. people would become depressed and lazy. if this crappy world is all there is for us,then whats the point? why even bother to try? it serves no purpose.

people wrap themselves in self-delusions(both religious and non-religious)because it is the only way they know how to get through life. the truth is simply to scary or painful for most.

even if there is a divine force that created everything,that doesnt mean we are important enough to gain its sole attention. we are just one tiny aspect of the whole universe. only mans arrogance and ego require that we are greater and have some "special" purpose.

the questions "why are we here,and,how did it all get started" is still much too elusive for us at this stage of our evolution,and the question beckons madness. so,since we cant seem to come up with unrefuteable scientific facts about it,the scientists satisfy themselves with their nifty little back-patting theories while the rest wallow in ancient superstitions.

the thing i havent been able to figure out is why oh WHY do people seem to think that you cant be moral without religion? some of the most honest and loving people i know who would give you the shirt off their backs dont go to church,dont pray,and never pick up the bible. yet people like Clinton,who use the bible as a political prop while on tv and claim to follow god can lie,cheat,and steal,as well as become a publicly worshipped male whore.

go figure....

people have been believing in god their whole lives and have based their whole personalities and thought processes around the idea of the supernatural. in fact,people have been believing in god in some form or another for all of human history. do you really expect a fearful,egotistical creature such as man to admit that millions of humans have been wrong? it would mean their our whole society and way of life is built around a mass delusion. most people cant handle that. it shows how silly and flawed us "higher animals" really are. without something to believe in,a higher purpose if you will,society would break down. people would become depressed and lazy. if this crappy world is all there is for us,then whats the point? why even bother to try? it serves no purpose.

people wrap themselves in self-delusions(both religious and non-religious)because it is the only way they know how to get through life. the truth is simply to scary or painful for most.

even if there is a divine force that created everything,that doesnt mean we are important enough to gain its sole attention. we are just one tiny aspect of the whole universe. only mans arrogance and ego require that we are greater and have some "special" purpose.

the questions "why are we here,and,how did it all get started" is still much too elusive for us at this stage of our evolution,and the question beckons madness. so,since we cant seem to come up with unrefuteable scientific facts about it,the scientists satisfy themselves with their nifty little back-patting theories while the rest wallow in ancient superstitions.

the thing i havent been able to figure out is why oh WHY do people seem to think that you cant be moral without religion? some of the most honest and loving people i know who would give you the shirt off their backs dont go to church,dont pray,and never pick up the bible. yet people like Clinton,who use the bible as a political prop while on tv and claim to follow god can lie,cheat,and steal,as well as become a publicly worshipped male whore.

go figure....


May I congratulate you on a superb post.
My only point of disagreement would be that I'm satisfied that we do have unrefutable scientific facts to answer anything the religious side have to fall back on god to explain.

people have been believing in god their whole lives and have based their whole personalities and thought processes around the idea of the supernatural. in fact,people have been believing in god in some form or another for all of human history. do you really expect a fearful,egotistical creature such as man to admit that millions of humans have been wrong? it would mean their our whole society and way of life is built around a mass delusion. most people cant handle that. it shows how silly and flawed us "higher animals" really are. without something to believe in,a higher purpose if you will,society would break down. people would become depressed and lazy. if this crappy world is all there is for us,then whats the point? why even bother to try? it serves no purpose.

people wrap themselves in self-delusions(both religious and non-religious)because it is the only way they know how to get through life. the truth is simply to scary or painful for most.

even if there is a divine force that created everything,that doesnt mean we are important enough to gain its sole attention. we are just one tiny aspect of the whole universe. only mans arrogance and ego require that we are greater and have some "special" purpose.

the questions "why are we here,and,how did it all get started" is still much too elusive for us at this stage of our evolution,and the question beckons madness. so,since we cant seem to come up with unrefuteable scientific facts about it,the scientists satisfy themselves with their nifty little back-patting theories while the rest wallow in ancient superstitions.

the thing i havent been able to figure out is why oh WHY do people seem to think that you cant be moral without religion? some of the most honest and loving people i know who would give you the shirt off their backs dont go to church,dont pray,and never pick up the bible. yet people like Clinton,who use the bible as a political prop while on tv and claim to follow god can lie,cheat,and steal,as well as become a publicly worshipped male whore.

go figure....
i gotta admit it dammn fine post!

You will find a good article on the subject at http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

HTH.
ty bud gonna make intresting reading !

Please, for the love of Elvis, use at least a semblance of grammatical structure- periods, paragraphs, punctuation; you know.... English! I have a hard time giving anyone credibility when they can't show they at least have the education to present their arguments in a coherent manner. :mad:
Me too. I do love the way he spells wrong "wrounge" though (appeals to my Canadian sensibilities).

here we go again.. im not rying to have a go but who said god crated the universe? answer some dude in a book
who said god exists? answer-some dude in a book.

i do belive in a higer power but not as decribed as in any religius text as they tend to be connected with breaking there own rules they set.. IE: tho shalt not kill!!!!
there is no person who can deny the FACT all religions lie to become more holyer than thou. an now for some light humer...
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/268440

The original Hebrew text said 'thou shalt not murder', I believe. Which is something entirely different from 'thou shalt not kill'.

people have been believing in god their whole lives and have based their whole personalities and thought processes around the idea of the supernatural. in fact,people have been believing in god in some form or another for all of human history. do you really expect a fearful,egotistical creature such as man to admit that millions of humans have been wrong? it would mean their our whole society and way of life is built around a mass delusion. most people cant handle that. it shows how silly and flawed us "higher animals" really are. without something to believe in,a higher purpose if you will,society would break down. people would become depressed and lazy. if this crappy world is all there is for us,then whats the point? why even bother to try? it serves no purpose.

people wrap themselves in self-delusions(both religious and non-religious)because it is the only way they know how to get through life. the truth is simply to scary or painful for most.

even if there is a divine force that created everything,that doesnt mean we are important enough to gain its sole attention. we are just one tiny aspect of the whole universe. only mans arrogance and ego require that we are greater and have some "special" purpose.

the questions "why are we here,and,how did it all get started" is still much too elusive for us at this stage of our evolution,and the question beckons madness. so,since we cant seem to come up with unrefuteable scientific facts about it,the scientists satisfy themselves with their nifty little back-patting theories while the rest wallow in ancient superstitions.

the thing i havent been able to figure out is why oh WHY do people seem to think that you cant be moral without religion? some of the most honest and loving people i know who would give you the shirt off their backs dont go to church,dont pray,and never pick up the bible. yet people like Clinton,who use the bible as a political prop while on tv and claim to follow god can lie,cheat,and steal,as well as become a publicly worshipped male whore.

go figure....
Fine argument, indeed! ....against the literalist-materialist's version of god.

If God existed, I'm pretty sure I'd have been smitten by now. Ergo, God doesn't exist.

Unless Satan's protecting me...?

If God existed, I'm pretty sure I'd have been smitten by now. Ergo, God doesn't exist.

Unless Satan's protecting me...?
Maybe you're not as bad as you think you are?

The original Hebrew text said 'thou shalt not murder', I believe. Which is something entirely different from 'thou shalt not kill'.
so i can quite honestly kill anyone withoyt remorse but i cant murder? define murder an killing please to kill is to murder an to murder is to kill ITS THE SAME DAMMN THING!!!!
killing Show phonetics
noun [C]
when a person is murdered:
a series of brutal killings
from: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=43647&dict=CALD
murder Show phonetics
noun [C or U]
the crime of intentionally killing a person:
Two sisters have been charged with (= officially accused of) murder.
There were three murders in the town last year.
The three were convicted of (= proved guilty of) murder.
murder weapon (= a weapon used to commit a murder)
from: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=52547&dict=CALD
point made nextime look up the meanings of the english translation please

so i can quite honestly kill anyone withoyt remorse but i cant murder? define murder an killing please to kill is to murder an to murder is to kill ITS THE SAME DAMMN THING!!!!
killing Show phonetics
noun [C]
when a person is murdered:
a series of brutal killings
from: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=43647&dict=CALD
murder Show phonetics
noun [C or U]
the crime of intentionally killing a person:
Two sisters have been charged with (= officially accused of) murder.
There were three murders in the town last year.
The three were convicted of (= proved guilty of) murder.
murder weapon (= a weapon used to commit a murder)
from: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=52547&dict=CALD
point made nextime look up the meanings of the english translation please

The easiest way to explain would probably be the legal differences. Up here, in the arguably best country to live in in the world, there are legal differences between the two. A murder is always punishable, to kill someone isn't always so - killing someone in self-defence isn't murder. Murder is, as far as I see, the killing of an innocent person.

Spouting English definitions, though, is not going to help. Being charged with murder, manslaughter and having killed a person are three different charges. Even in the US.