NationStates Jolt Archive

Commentary - Well well Mr. Bush, it appears your plan to go to Mars caused some vibrations in the halls of power overseas. The ESA and Russia are teaming up to develop a new six-person spacecraft to replace the Soyuz shuttle. I do believe the future is a bright one for space exploration. Anyone else think this is awesome? I've been clamouring for a MODERN TECH space vehicle for years, and now Europe/Russia have granted my wish. Awesome. :D

EDIT - Also, for the Europeans here, what do you guys think of this? What about the pricetag - is it worth the obvious costs to design and create such a fleet? What about working with Russia? A boon or a disaster waiting to happen?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4286086.stm

Plans for Euro-Russian spaceplane

The European Space Agency (Esa) is proposing joining forces with Russia to develop a new vehicle for human spaceflight, the Clipper.

The six-person spaceplane would give European astronauts autonomous access to the space station and the Moon.

Esa will ask its member states to fund a 30-40m-euro (£20-27m) preparatory study at its next ministerial meeting.

Russia is planning to replace its ageing Soyuz capsule with the Clipper and is seeking international partners.

The Soyuz has been in operation since the late 1960s, flying cosmonauts back and forth to Salyut, Mir and the International Space Station.

Regarded as the workhorse of Russia's manned and unmanned space fleet, it is one of the most reliable spacecraft ever built.

But Russia is looking to the future and is planning to replace the Soyuz with a new vehicle that would be capable of taking cosmonauts into lunar orbit.

"The objective is to have a vehicle which is more comfortable than the Soyuz capsule which will be used with pilots and four passengers," Alain Fournier-Sicre, head of the Esa permanent mission in the Russian Federation, told the BBC News website.

"It's meant to service the space station and to go between Earth and an orbit around the Moon with six crew members."

People carrier

The Clipper is essentially a "people carrier" designed to transport astronauts, said Alan Thirkettle, head of the Esa's Human Spaceflight Development Department.

By joining forces with Russia, Europe would have access to a fixed number of seats on the vehicle, perhaps one or two per flight, for use by its own astronauts.

"At the moment we have to ask the Russians or ask the Americans to fly an astronaut," said Mr Thirkettle. "Through participation in the Clipper, we would have the right to seats when we want them."

European industry would benefit, too, from Russia's years of experience in human spaceflight, he said. Russia, in return, would have access to certain technologies that are more sophisticated in Europe.

"It potentially is a fairly happy marriage," said Mr Thirkettle.

Some competion will be good for NASA. Maybe (hopefully), the media will snowball it into another race (probably not as big as the last one) that will force both sides to achive the goal of reaching Mars, instead of giving up part way.

Some competion will be good for NASA. Maybe (hopefully), the media will snowball it into another race (probably not as big as the last one) that will force both sides to achive the goal of reaching Mars, instead of giving up part way.

It could easily become a new space race IMHO. I sure hope so. We have the technology, let's get humanity into space on a more permanent basis. A race could do that.

Awesome. :D
Seconded.

Now waiting for people to start bagging the project, turning this into an American Astronauts vs Other debate.

It could easily become a new space race IMHO. I sure hope so. We have the technology, let's get humanity into space on a more permanent basis. A race could do that.
Then we would also learn knowledge and create new technologies that could end improving our lives. Besides it would nice to see something other than celebraties and Iraq on the news.

Seconded.

Now waiting for people to start bagging the project, turning this into an American Astronauts vs Other debate.

I'm not sure how this could get to a big US v. World thing yet. I mean this is Europe(and Russia) building this one. If anything, when Europe has the new, awesome spacecraft and the US is going to the moon on a glorified Saturn V, it might end up with Europe, not the US, as the leader in space.

..it might end up with Europe, not the US, as the leader in space.
Well, I guess you won't hear me complain. I'd be hoping the EU would be more committed to the "No Weapons in Space!" Law than the others.

"On the Russian side, of course, they have in mind space tourism and propose a certain level of comfort; but the main objective is science," said Mr Fournier-Sicre.
:cool:

Well, I guess you won't hear me complain. I'd be hoping the EU would be more committed to the "No Weapons in Space!" Law than the others.


:cool:

Yea... something tells me that the US would use space to establish greater military projection power(anyone remember that Rods from Gods system from like 6 months ago?), whereas Europe seems less likely to do that. Though I am not naive enough to assume space shall remain peaceful forever, I just trust Europe more in the short run. After all, Europe doesn't have the undying emnity of half the world to contend with, unlike some other nations I know... :p

el-Bumpo

EDIT - Also, for the Europeans here, what do you guys think of this? What about the pricetag - is it worth the obvious costs to design and create such a fleet? What about working with Russia? A boon or a disaster waiting to happen?

The Soyuz has been in operation since the late 1960s, flying cosmonauts back and forth to Salyut, Mir and the International Space Station.

Regarded as the workhorse of Russia's manned and unmanned space fleet, it is one of the most reliable spacecraft ever built.The Russians know how to make spacecraft. I'm not that afraid of a disaster :D

The Russians know how to make spacecraft. I'm not that afraid of a disaster :D

Remember the spacecraft before Soyuz? Lol-able!

Remember the spacecraft before Soyuz? Lol-able!So I'm supposed to go after what they did before they got good at building spacecraft or after? ;)

It could easily become a new space race IMHO. I sure hope so. We have the technology, let's get humanity into space on a more permanent basis. A race could do that.
Yes. Absolutely. The sooner we get a viable gene pool off this rock the better.

(And the sooner we dump NASA and let the private sector into the Race the better. Nothing motivates like Greed and the chance to Win.)

So I'm supposed to go after what they did before they got good at building spacecraft or after? ;)

*Head explodes*

Yes. Absolutely. The sooner we get a viable gene pool off this rock the better.

(And the sooner we dump NASA and let the private sector into the Race the better. Nothing motivates like Greed and the chance to Win.)

Well I don't really trust private companies per se. Not with such a large thing yet. If space is done by the Gov for at least a while, we have a hope of the innovations, resources and discoveries from that will benefit at least all citizens and at best all mankind. I know that if we let private companies do all this, the above mentioned goodstuff will end up being for shareholders and the rich, not for all. I'm really wary of space becoming a private club for the rich and corporations.

Though I think a bunch of small companies, alongside gov run stuff, might be okay.

The trouble is the only way to make space viable is to make it commercial. If you let businesses loose on it, they'll make it work, but there will be a heavy compromising of scientific values. It's like Syniks said (and Great Good God, does it worry me that I agree with Syniks), if you want it to happen, turn it into a profit motive.

sweet :)
about time the ESA actually did something (like this)

What if you funnel private interests through government? You know that project that NASA is working on to replace the Space Shuttle? Have a competition, just like they do for aircraft.

The trouble is the only way to make space viable is to make it commercial. If you let businesses loose on it, they'll make it work, but there will be a heavy compromising of scientific values. It's like Syniks said (and Great Good God, does it worry me that I agree with Syniks), if you want it to happen, turn it into a profit motive.However, like Kroisistan said, the chances of that benefitting all but the shareholders of the companies are slim. I'm not too fond of the notion of a "Planet Starbucks"...

However, like Kroisistan said, the chances of that benefitting all but the shareholders of the companies are slim. I'm not too fond of the notion of a "Planet Starbucks"...

The Wal-Mart Nebula. Always low Gravity. Always. :p

I hate to tell everyone thats worried about weaponized space this, but it's already been done to a point. I'm not linking to anything cause I just don't feel like, but go google your hearts out, and see what I mean.

Talk all the crap you want about America, but remember this. We don't miss an opportunity to build weapons too often.
~EDIT~ This statement should not be construed as fact. It was a conclusion that was come to based on statements made from civilian sources that space weaponization is 5 years away, coupled with the fact that government technology is always about 10-15 years ahead of civilian tech.

I truly beleive that based on the fact that we already use satellites for combat, and the technology exists to weaponize satellites, thta is has already been done, or is close to completion. I may be wrong, but I FIRMLY believe that if I am wrong, it will only be a matter of years until I am right.

The airforce is already working on it.SOURCE (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,62358,00.html)

Well I don't really trust private companies per se. Not with such a large thing yet. If space is done by the Gov for at least a while, we have a hope of the innovations, resources and discoveries from that will benefit at least all citizens and at best all mankind. I know that if we let private companies do all this, the above mentioned goodstuff will end up being for shareholders and the rich, not for all. I'm really wary of space becoming a private club for the rich and corporations.

Though I think a bunch of small companies, alongside gov run stuff, might be okay.
Sometime look up an article by Jim Baen called "The Tragedy of the Moon". Essentially, it proves that the nationalization of the Space Race by Kennedy set us BACK by 20 or 30 years. Before NASA, all of the major Aerospace firms were feverishly competing on space-plane technology. IIRC Rockwell had a pre-production Shuttle design in the late 50s. All of that was shelved when the Fed took over and demanded Big Boosters.

If you take a look at Kubrick's 2001, you can see where space development was headed pre-NASA. TWA flies you to a Space Station with acomodations provided by Howard Johnsons.

Enviornmentally, we could end strip mining. A single Nickle-Iron asteroid would provide more metal than earth uses in a century. Micro-gravity formed spherical bearings have a friction coefficient so low as to effectively be frictionless. Who needs lubricating oils then? Silicon CPUs have quite nearly reached their maximum capacity. Rare-earth chips, like Gallium-Arsinide, while tremendously fast, are almost impossible to grow in a gravity well. How would you like to see a quantum leap in processor speed?

That's what I mean by Private Sector. Right now, nobody can effectively invest in developing Space Technology because there really isn't any... the Government controls it all. :headbang:

What if you funnel private interests through government? You know that project that NASA is working on to replace the Space Shuttle? Have a competition, just like they do for aircraft.
Every Dollar "invested" in a government program is only good for a few pennies of actual progress. There just is no incentive for the Government to succeed. There IS incentive to grow the bureaucracy tho... :rolleyes:

Sometime look up an article by Jim Baen called "The Tragedy of the Moon". Essentially, it proves that the nationalization of the Space Race by Kennedy set us BACK by 20 or 30 years. Before NASA, all of the major Aerospace firms were feverishly competing on space-plane technology. IIRC Rockwell had a pre-production Shuttle design in the late 50s. All of that was shelved when the Fed took over and demanded Big Boosters.

If you take a look at Kubrick's 2001, you can see where space development was headed pre-NASA. TWA flies you to a Space Station with acomodations provided by Howard Johnsons.

Enviornmentally, we could end strip mining. A single Nickle-Iron asteroid would provide more metal than earth uses in a century. Micro-gravity formed spherical bearings have a friction coefficient so low as to effectively be frictionless. Who needs lubricating oils then? Silicon CPUs have quite nearly reached their maximum capacity. Rare-earth chips, like Gallium-Arsinide, while tremendously fast, are almost impossible to grow in a gravity well. How would you like to see a quantum leap in processor speed?

That's what I mean by Private Sector. Right now, nobody can effectively invest in developing Space Technology because there really isn't any... the Government controls it all. :headbang:

I could accept private companies in space, as long as some of my concerns about the consequences were allayed through regulation or something to that effect. I know the private sector is effective, that's why I'm a socialist not a communist. I just don't want to let all the big corporations and the rich essentially run space, with no one to answer to and leaving no opportunities for the less wealthy among us to share in the human destiny that is space.

<snip> (and Great Good God, does it worry me that I agree with Syniks) <snip>
PTHBLTH! :p

There was no question in my mind that the ESA could put a man into space anytime it wanted to. It's just too rich of a place to not have such capabilities. But of course, they'd need to grow their own talent. They don't need to with the Russians, however. Now, with Russian talent and European money (and hopefully their safety standards, too), Europe can piggyback into space.
I'm wondering if any other countries with space programs are watching. Japan and India, for example, both have programs of their own, but currently use NASA to launch people into space. Will they developed manned space programs of their own, or will they work with the US to further its program? One thing is for certain, and that is that, so long as the two rely heavily on public sector space exploration, neither country can bear not to remain where they are.