NationStates Jolt Archive

Brown Blames 'Dysfunctional' Louisiana (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050927015209990001&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

Which goes to show even Bush's sacrificial goat lacks a sense of responsibility and accountability.

Brown Blames 'Dysfunctional' Louisiana (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050927015209990001&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

Which goes to show even Bush's sacrificial goat lacks a sense of responsibility and accountability.
I watched his testimony and he didn't seem to be shuffling all the blame off onto others. I got the impression that he felt he had made some mistakes, but his comments about the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana sounded much like the same comments I made sometime back. Both of them seemed to be entirely too equivocating and hesitant in responding to the disaster. There seemed to be more than enough confusion to go around.

Brown Blames 'Dysfunctional' Louisiana (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050927015209990001&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

Which goes to show even Bush's sacrificial goat lacks a sense of responsibility and accountability.
*Brown said: "Those are not FEMA roles. FEMA doesn't evacuate communities. FEMA does not do law enforcement. FEMA does not do communications."*

Why not? By Presidential mandate, FEMA is in complete charge once a federal emergency is declared. That's not saying that state and local authorities cease to exist, but that FEMA is place in complete charge of the situation. So if FEMA did not have plans in place to coordinate law enforcement, communications and evacuation(Which New Orleans did 80% of without FEMA's aid), then why was FEMA put in charge, anyway?

Unless you want to live in a US where the President declares martial law and takes over a US State without the governor's permission, and forces people to evacuate at gunpoint, and shoots looters on sight, and automatically Federalizes the state National Guard in time of emergency, thereby taking the state governor completely out of the chain of command, the Feds aren't going to be doing much except what may be done afterwards.

If you want them to take ALL the blame for a disaster, then I suggest you go to your state legislature and ask for them to hand over all state and local authority under any state of emergency to the Federal goverhnment.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/27/opinion/main886717.shtml

New Orleans and Houston have raised serious questions about the nation's ability to evacuate effectively major urban areas in the event of a natural disaster or terrorist attack. The more recent Houston evacuation is rightly viewed as the more successful, as 2.5 million people managed to get out of the area by car. Things could have been better. In the future, freeways need to be made one-way much earlier, and there should be preexisting fuel-contingency plans. The biggest tragedy was in New Orleans where many households were without cars, and no serious attempt was made to use the hundreds of buses that were available before the hurricane and subsequent flood.

Those buses belonged not to FEMA, nor to the state of Louisiana, but to the City of New Orleans. School buses and transit buses. Over 400 of them ready and waiting to be used. But not used.

Care to blame Brown for that? Or should we castigate Mayor Nagin?

Make sure that when you want to throw blame around, you start with the people at the first level of responsibility.

The biggest tragedy was in New Orleans where many households were without cars, and no serious attempt was made to use the hundreds of buses that were available before the hurricane and subsequent flood.

Those buses belonged not to FEMA, nor to the state of Louisiana, but to the City of New Orleans. School buses and transit buses. Over 400 of them ready and waiting to be used. But not used.

Care to blame Brown for that? Or should we castigate Mayor Nagin?

Make sure that when you want to throw blame around, you start with the people at the first level of responsibility.
Nahh. that would make entirely too much sense. Besides, many posters on here search so hard for ways to castigate President Bush that they would miss a governor or mayor who committed mass murder in favor of another Bush gaffe. :rolleyes:

Or, a picture is worth a thousand words. Or 255 buses in this one lot:
http://static.flickr.com/28/40217125_002c0fb411_o.jpg

And 146 buses in this lot:
http://static.flickr.com/26/40217123_8eb7949afa_o.jpg

Or, 205 more buses: http://static.flickr.com/26/40217127_c4499b3641_o.jpg

New Orleans owns those buses. Here's their significance:

I count 205 busses. When I was a kid, I remember that school busses could carry 66 people. If that is still the case, 13,530 people could be carried to safety in ONE trip using only the busses shown in that picture.

One trip.

Houston is 350 miles from New Orleans. At 50 miles per hour, 13,530 people could have reached Houston in seven hours. Turn the buses around. 14 hours later another 13,530 people are in Houston, far away from Katrina's wrath. In a little more than a day's time, you've gotten the poorest people who wanted to leave but couldn't leave on their own out of the city. And you don't have to drive them as far as Houston. It's the closest huge city, but there are lots of smaller towns you could ferry people to more quickly. The shorter the drive, the more trips you can make. Pretty soon 26,000 saved becomes everyone saved. If anyone left behind in the storm survives and then loots, at least they're not endangering thousands of innocent people. Those innocent people aren't there to be endangered. They're somewhere else.

You see, buses have these interesting features on them, Mr. Ebbert, called wheels. They allow buses to move about the streets of a city under the control of a human. Because of their wheels, buses can go to where the people are and offer them a ride. You could tell people to congregate at street corners for easier pickup. Moreover, since the buses are on the road picking up people and moving them out of the city, they're not in the path of the flood when the levee breaks. So you can keep using them to get the few stragglers who managed to survive the storm and the floods. And you can use them to haul in supplies. Troops. Whatever you need.

But since no one mobilized these buses before the storm--ahem, Mr. Ebbert--since no one mobilized them before the storm, the poor in New Orleans had no way of getting out. And now the buses are waterlogged and useless. All 205 of them. They will go on the expense side of the ledger instead of the asset side. That's your fault, Mr. Ebbert. The blame rests with you, sir. You knew the city owned those buses, you knew where to get them, where to fuel them and you probably had a list of the drivers who operate them. Yet there they sit, half submerged.

One emergency manager with half a clue and a couple hundred drivers could have more or less saved New Orleans from turning into Mad Max territory. Terry Ebbert can blame everyone else all he wants, but this crisis is almost entirely his fault.

THEY HAD A PLAN

They just didn't follow it. So they were planning to fail. By "they," I mean pretty much every government official in Louisiana, and by "plan," I mean a signed-off set of procedures they were supposed to follow in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. You know, like the one that just hit. And by "fail" I mean complete catastrophic failure.

Here's the southeast Louisiana evac plan supplement (http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf), most recently revised in 2000. Go to page 13, read paragraph 5. It states:

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

Well, well. Can you say "smoking gun," Mr. Mayor? Mr. Ebbert? How about a smoking arsenal? I guess whether or not you decide to act is based on how you define "school and municipal buses" and "staging area." Or "hurricane." Or "mandatory," as in "mandatory evacuation."

Also see page 18, paragraph 2a 2 and 3.

Page 20, paragraph 3a 5.

Page 21, paragraph c 4.

Page 29, all of it.

And this is just one part of a 250-page state Emergency Operations Plan. http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/STATE%20OF%20LOUISIANA%20EOP%202005.doc

Or, a picture is worth a thousand words. Or 255 buses in this one lot:

Shh! Stop using logic to appropriately blame local officials!

Shh! Stop using logic to appropriately blame local officials!

Or, should we say, Mayor Nagin passes the buck. Or his pal Terry Ebbert.

An angry Terry Ebbert, head of New Orleans' emergency operations, watched the slow exodus from the Superdome on Thursday morning and said the Federal Emergency Management Agency response was inadequate. The chaos at the nearby New Orleans Convention Center was considerably worse than the Superdome, with an angry mob growing increasingly violent and few options for refugees to leave the scene.

"This is a national disgrace. FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control," Ebbert said. "We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."

Ebbert's job is to coordinate New Orleans' response to emergencies. Somebody should show him the pictures of the buses he should have used and tell him to stop blaming everyone but himself.

Terry Ebbert and Mayor Nagin are national disgraces.

Both Mayor Nagin and Gov. Blanco said in the aftermath of Hurricane Ivan (which luckily caused little damage) that they had poor command and control, and no real evacuation plan. That was in 2004. Obviously, Blanco, Nagin, and Ebbert had much better things to do than try and organize an evacuation with the plethora of buses they had.

Hasent logic been banned yet?

Or, should we say, Mayor Nagin passes the buck. Or his pal Terry Ebbert.

B...b...but, only Bush made mistakes! The city of New Orleans is internationally reknowned for its purity and stand-up officials!

Or are people so retarded to not realize that the people in charge of New Orleans weren't exactly doing a great job to begin with?

did y'all hear that mr brown has been hired by FEMA as a consultant to try to figure out what went wrong with the katrina response?

isnt that just a slight conflict of interest?

B...b...but, only Bush made mistakes! The city of New Orleans is internationally reknowned for its purity and stand-up officials!

Or are people so retarded to not realize that the people in charge of New Orleans weren't exactly doing a great job to begin with?


The scene: three days after Katrina's landfall, and a day after the levees broke. The place: Baton Rouge. The setting: the state's command center for emergency response.

The governor of Louisiana was "blistering mad." It was the third night after Hurricane Katrina drowned New Orleans, and Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco needed buses to rescue thousands of people from the fetid Superdome and convention center. But only a fraction of the 500 vehicles promised by federal authorities had arrived.

Ms. Blanco burst into the state's emergency center in Baton Rouge. "Does anybody in this building know anything about buses?" she recalled crying out.

They were an obvious linchpin for evacuating a city where nearly 100,000 people had no cars. Yet the federal, state and local officials who had failed to round up buses in advance were now in a frantic hunt. It would be two more days before they found enough to empty the shelters.

Funny that she and Mayor Nagin never discussed THESE BUSES before it all flooded:

http://static.flickr.com/26/40217123_8eb7949afa_o.jpg

Hasent logic been banned yet?
Unfortunately for some on here ... no. :rolleyes:

*Brown said: "Those are not FEMA roles. FEMA doesn't evacuate communities. FEMA does not do law enforcement. FEMA does not do communications."*

Why not? By Presidential mandate, FEMA is in complete charge once a federal emergency is declared. That's not saying that state and local authorities cease to exist, but that FEMA is place in complete charge of the situation. So if FEMA did not have plans in place to coordinate law enforcement, communications and evacuation(Which New Orleans did 80% of without FEMA's aid), then why was FEMA put in charge, anyway?

FEMA is not in complete charge. The Governor of the State is in charge, unless they explicitly abdicate their authority. The Governor is in charge of National Guard efforts, and all efforts within the state.

FEMA does not set up communications networks. It has no law enforcement powers - even in time of emergency. There IS a time when FEMA has total power, but that is only in a complete NATIONAL emergency, when the President may suspend the Constitution for up to six months - and I'm sure you wouldn't be happy about that.

Or are people so retarded to not realize that the people in charge of New Orleans weren't exactly doing a great job to begin with?
Some are, but most are looking so hard for stuff about which to raise hell with Bush, that they pass for "retarted" whether they actually are or not. :rolleyes:

Oh, and Governor Blanco did a good job of covering her ass at the last minute:

EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. KBB 2005 - 31

EMERGENCY EVACUATION BY BUSES

WHEREAS, the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., confers upon the governor of the state of Louisiana emergency powers to deal with emergencies and disasters, including those caused by fire, flood, earthquake or other natural or man-made causes, to ensure that preparations of this state will be adequate to deal with such emergencies or disasters, and to preserve the lives and property of the citizens of the state of Louisiana;


WHEREAS, pursuant to Proclamation No. 48 KBB 2005, a state of emergency was declared and is currently in effect;


WHEREAS, R.S. 29:724(D)(4) provides that the governor, subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, may commandeer or utilize any private property if she finds it necessary to cope with the disaster or emergency;


WHEREAS, there is an immediate need for mass transportation to move citizens to shelters and other safe locations from disaster areas; and


WHEREAS, given the current exigent circumstances, buses are the most reasonable and practical mode of mass transportation to move our citizens to safety;


NOW THEREFORE I, KATHLEEN BABINEAUX BLANCO, Governor of the state of Louisiana, by virtue of the authority vested by the Constitution and laws of the state of Louisiana, do hereby order and direct as follows:

SECTION 1: Each Superintendent of Education for each school district in Louisiana that remains substantially operational following the passage of Hurricane Katrina shall contact the Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness at 225-925-3916 and provide an inventory of school buses and bus drivers in their district;

SECTION 2: As determined by the Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness, such buses shall be made available to be used as necessary for the mass transportation of Hurricane Katrina evacuees, accompanying law
enforcement personnel, and necessary supplies to from areas of concern to areas of safety;

SECTION 3: The Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness is hereby authorized to commandeer and utilize such buses for such purposes;

SECTION 4: Each Superintendent of Education for each school district in Louisiana that remains substantially operational following the passage of Hurricane Katrina shall coordinate with local law enforcement agencies and peace officers to ensure that at least one peace officer ride in each bus and at least two marked law enforcement vehicles accompany every ten buses;

SECTION 5: The Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness shall make efforts to work with the superintendents and local boards of education to minimize interruption of regular transportation of students;

SECTION 6: R.S. 17:158, relative to parish and city school boards providing free
transportation to students, is hereby suspended until Sunday, September 25,
2005, unless reinstated sooner.

SECTION 7: This Order is effective upon signature and shall continue in effect until amended, modified, terminated, or rescinded by the governor, or terminated by operation of law.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have set my hand officially and caused to be affixed the Great Seal of Louisiana, at the Capitol, in the city of Baton Rouge, on this 31st day of August, 2005.


/S/ Kathleen Babineaux Blanco

GOVERNOR OF LOUISIANA

ATTEST BY

THE GOVERNOR

/S/ Al Ater

SECRETARY OF STATE

This was issued on August 31. It's an order to commandeer the buses and use them to move people to safety. The storm was already past. The city of New Orleans, and therefore all of those buses we've all been looking at, flooded on the 29th and 30th. By the time this order went out, it was worthless.

I guess the gov needed to sleep on it.

I guess Gauthier couldn't think of a way to blame the Mayor Nagin Memorial Parking Lot on Bush and Brown...

Some are, but most are looking so hard for stuff about which to raise hell with Bush, that they pass for "retarted" whether they actually are or not

It's funny how the hatred of one man is the only thing that seems to drive the opposition...to the point where every single sniffle is a Bush conspiracy.

It's funny how the hatred of one man is the only thing that seems to drive the opposition...to the point where every single sniffle is a Bush conspiracy.
Either that, or the failure to evacuate poor blacks from a city full of buses owned and under the authority of a black mayor is the result of a racist conspiracy, rather than the incompetency of the mayor, who held the keys to those buses.

This is worth quoting, because there's no way Gauthier can blame this on the Feds.

Or, 205 more buses: http://static.flickr.com/26/40217127_c4499b3641_o.jpg

New Orleans owns those buses. Here's their significance:

I count 205 busses. When I was a kid, I remember that school busses could carry 66 people. If that is still the case, 13,530 people could be carried to safety in ONE trip using only the busses shown in that picture.

One trip.

Houston is 350 miles from New Orleans. At 50 miles per hour, 13,530 people could have reached Houston in seven hours. Turn the buses around. 14 hours later another 13,530 people are in Houston, far away from Katrina's wrath. In a little more than a day's time, you've gotten the poorest people who wanted to leave but couldn't leave on their own out of the city. And you don't have to drive them as far as Houston. It's the closest huge city, but there are lots of smaller towns you could ferry people to more quickly. The shorter the drive, the more trips you can make. Pretty soon 26,000 saved becomes everyone saved. If anyone left behind in the storm survives and then loots, at least they're not endangering thousands of innocent people. Those innocent people aren't there to be endangered. They're somewhere else.

You see, buses have these interesting features on them, Mr. Ebbert, called wheels. They allow buses to move about the streets of a city under the control of a human. Because of their wheels, buses can go to where the people are and offer them a ride. You could tell people to congregate at street corners for easier pickup. Moreover, since the buses are on the road picking up people and moving them out of the city, they're not in the path of the flood when the levee breaks. So you can keep using them to get the few stragglers who managed to survive the storm and the floods. And you can use them to haul in supplies. Troops. Whatever you need.

But since no one mobilized these buses before the storm--ahem, Mr. Ebbert--since no one mobilized them before the storm, the poor in New Orleans had no way of getting out. And now the buses are waterlogged and useless. All 205 of them. They will go on the expense side of the ledger instead of the asset side. That's your fault, Mr. Ebbert. The blame rests with you, sir. You knew the city owned those buses, you knew where to get them, where to fuel them and you probably had a list of the drivers who operate them. Yet there they sit, half submerged.

One emergency manager with half a clue and a couple hundred drivers could have more or less saved New Orleans from turning into Mad Max territory. Terry Ebbert can blame everyone else all he wants, but this crisis is almost entirely his fault.

THEY HAD A PLAN

They just didn't follow it. So they were planning to fail. By "they," I mean pretty much every government official in Louisiana, and by "plan," I mean a signed-off set of procedures they were supposed to follow in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. You know, like the one that just hit. And by "fail" I mean complete catastrophic failure.

Here's the southeast Louisiana evac plan supplement (http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf), most recently revised in 2000. Go to page 13, read paragraph 5. It states:

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

Well, well. Can you say "smoking gun," Mr. Mayor? Mr. Ebbert? How about a smoking arsenal? I guess whether or not you decide to act is based on how you define "school and municipal buses" and "staging area." Or "hurricane." Or "mandatory," as in "mandatory evacuation."

Also see page 18, paragraph 2a 2 and 3.

Page 20, paragraph 3a 5.

Page 21, paragraph c 4.

Page 29, all of it.

And this is just one part of a 250-page state Emergency Operations Plan. http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/STATE%20OF%20LOUISIANA%20EOP%202005.doc

Or, 205 more buses: http://static.flickr.com/26/40217127_c4499b3641_o.jpg

New Orleans owns those buses. Here's their significance:

I count 205 busses. When I was a kid, I remember that school busses could carry 66 people. If that is still the case, 13,530 people could be carried to safety in ONE trip using only the busses shown in that picture.

One trip.

Houston is 350 miles from New Orleans. At 50 miles per hour, 13,530 people could have reached Houston in seven hours. Turn the buses around. 14 hours later another 13,530 people are in Houston, far away from Katrina's wrath. In a little more than a day's time, you've gotten the poorest people who wanted to leave but couldn't leave on their own out of the city. And you don't have to drive them as far as Houston. It's the closest huge city, but there are lots of smaller towns you could ferry people to more quickly. The shorter the drive, the more trips you can make. Pretty soon 26,000 saved becomes everyone saved. If anyone left behind in the storm survives and then loots, at least they're not endangering thousands of innocent people. Those innocent people aren't there to be endangered. They're somewhere else.

You see, buses have these interesting features on them, Mr. Ebbert, called wheels. They allow buses to move about the streets of a city under the control of a human. Because of their wheels, buses can go to where the people are and offer them a ride. You could tell people to congregate at street corners for easier pickup. Moreover, since the buses are on the road picking up people and moving them out of the city, they're not in the path of the flood when the levee breaks. So you can keep using them to get the few stragglers who managed to survive the storm and the floods. And you can use them to haul in supplies. Troops. Whatever you need.

But since no one mobilized these buses before the storm--ahem, Mr. Ebbert--since no one mobilized them before the storm, the poor in New Orleans had no way of getting out. And now the buses are waterlogged and useless. All 205 of them. They will go on the expense side of the ledger instead of the asset side. That's your fault, Mr. Ebbert. The blame rests with you, sir. You knew the city owned those buses, you knew where to get them, where to fuel them and you probably had a list of the drivers who operate them. Yet there they sit, half submerged.

One emergency manager with half a clue and a couple hundred drivers could have more or less saved New Orleans from turning into Mad Max territory. Terry Ebbert can blame everyone else all he wants, but this crisis is almost entirely his fault.

THEY HAD A PLAN

They just didn't follow it. So they were planning to fail. By "they," I mean pretty much every government official in Louisiana, and by "plan," I mean a signed-off set of procedures they were supposed to follow in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. You know, like the one that just hit. And by "fail" I mean complete catastrophic failure.

Here's the southeast Louisiana evac plan supplement (http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf), most recently revised in 2000. Go to page 13, read paragraph 5. It states:

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

Well, well. Can you say "smoking gun," Mr. Mayor? Mr. Ebbert? How about a smoking arsenal? I guess whether or not you decide to act is based on how you define "school and municipal buses" and "staging area." Or "hurricane." Or "mandatory," as in "mandatory evacuation."

Also see page 18, paragraph 2a 2 and 3.

Page 20, paragraph 3a 5.

Page 21, paragraph c 4.

Page 29, all of it.

And this is just one part of a 250-page state Emergency Operations Plan. http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/STATE%20OF%20LOUISIANA%20EOP%202005.doc


One big flaw in your plan: the idea that during a mass evacuation ANY vehicle is going faster than 50 feet per hour.

50 MPH?

lmfao!

Didn't know you were writing comedy.....




Oh yeah, and here's another thoughts:

Bus drivers have jobs. Jobs often equate to having cars. Not to mention families. And bus drivers are not generally assumed to be essential services.

So who is driving these buses when none of yur bus drivers show up because they have already hit the road taking their families to safety? Do you just hand over the keys to unqualified drivers and wait for the lawsuits to pile up when a few of them have accidents?

you don't think that would be the case? Did you not hear of the problems they had at the airport in Huston during the evacuation because a large percentage of security folks, baggage handlers, ticket-desk workers etc. didn't show up over the last few days becuase they thought it would be nice to get themselves evacuated too?


What you might like to have happen and what really happens during such an emergency are two very different thing. And expecting all the bus drivers to show up to work and to be able to scoot along highways at speed ferrying people out from a city under a massa evacuation ranks way up there in the realms of fantasy.

1. Nobody has to search for ways to castigate Bush. He delivers them to us daily.

2. When, when, oh, when will anyone explain to me how A screwing up excuses B screwing up??? No kidding the state and local officials didn't do their jobs. What a coincidence! Neither did the feds. It's like they're all in the same club -- The American FUBAR Society. So, in the interest of fair play, Nagin and Governor what's her name should be ousted on the same day as Bush and his entire cabinet and all his appointees. How's that?

3. No, Brownie being paid by FEMA to explain how he didn't do it isn't a conflict of interest. It's just a crooked way to pay him off for taking the blame for the rest of them.

Oh, and Governor Blanco did a good job of covering her ass at the last minute:

<snip>

This was issued on August 31. It's an order to commandeer the buses and use them to move people to safety. The storm was already past. The city of New Orleans, and therefore all of those buses we've all been looking at, flooded on the 29th and 30th. By the time this order went out, it was worthless.

I guess the gov needed to sleep on it.


OK, so even as we recognize that some more could have been done AT ALL LEVELS before the storm hit, now you're complaining that she tried to mobilize transportation for people still stuck in New Orleans AFTER the storm hit too?

I mean, c'mon. That is pretty lame.


Or, to put it another way, what would you be saying if she HADN'T used her powers to commandeer buses to try and go in and get the people who were stuck there out afterwards?


Even after the lessons of Katrina, the evacuations for Rita were hardly orderly or complete, and people STILL needed to get transport in to pull out survivers afterwards to move them to shelters.


Trying to equate the proper actions taken to facilitate that second neccessary step to any failure before the storm hit is an indefensible cheap shot.

Instead of helping prevent loss of life by ferrying out many people that couldnt evacuate themselves, these buses actually ADDED to the problem. They could have moved thousands of people -they could have made several trips.
Unfortunately, these buses now sit in water like everything else. They are now a total waste, where, if they had been used, they wouldnt all be a total loss now. Who knows how much poison and contamination they are adding to the flood water?

This should have been part of a plan by the mayor of a city where this was bound to happen. The govenor's office should have included use of whatever means necessary to get out as well.

Both mayor and govenor are guilty of negligence and have spent more time muddying the water than trying to prevent or solve it.

OK, so even as we recognize that some more could have been done AT ALL LEVELS before the storm hit, now you're complaining that she tried to mobilize transportation for people still stuck in New Orleans AFTER the storm hit too?

I mean, c'mon. That is pretty lame.


Or, to put it another way, what would you be saying if she HADN'T used her powers to commandeer buses to try and go in and get the people who were stuck there out afterwards?


Even after the lessons of Katrina, the evacuations for Rita were hardly orderly or complete, and people STILL needed to get transport in to pull out survivers afterwards to move them to shelters.


Trying to equate the proper actions taken to facilitate that second neccessary step to any failure before the storm hit is an indefensible cheap shot.

You bring up a good point I missed. Sure all those buses could have ferried out people, but where were the drivers? Since they were school buses I very much doubt they would be on-call waiting at a moment's notice to start driving. And more than likely they were saving their own families' asses to begin with, which is understandable.

i dont see what busses have to do with anything. those who couldnt get out of town for lack of transportation or for medical reasons went to the superdome and the convention center (and other places). that was the plan and it worked. there werent people left outside against their will. everyone either got out of town, found public shelter, or stayed home by their own choice.

the problem was that the plan didnt really cover the days after a disatrous hurricane hit and left the city flooded and massive number of people stranded for more than the 3 days worth of food and water that they were told to bring.

this is where people fucked up. where fema declared that they were in charge of everything and then did nothing. where local officials let their hands be tied by federal bureaucrats.

i dont see what busses have to do with anything. those who couldnt get out of town for lack of transportation or for medical reasons went to the superdome and the convention center (and other places). that was the plan and it worked. there werent people left outside against their will. everyone either got out of town, found public shelter, or stayed home by their own choice.

the problem was that the plan didnt really cover the days after a disatrous hurricane hit and left the city flooded and massive number of people stranded for more than the 3 days worth of food and water that they were told to bring.

this is where people fucked up. where fema declared that they were in charge of everything and then did nothing. where local officials let their hands be tied by federal bureaucrats.

Bingo! Give this woman the non-carcinogenic smoking apparatus of her choice!

You know, anyone with a driver's license can drive a school bus, or a small city bus (AKA not the huge ones with the crumple rubber-plastic seperating the sections). My mother drives school bus, and so long as you don't make any tight turns, the bus will stay upright.

So you don't need bus driver's, you just need a bunch of college students.

You know, anyone with a driver's license can drive a school bus, or a small city bus (AKA not the huge ones with the crumple rubber-plastic seperating the sections). My mother drives school bus, and so long as you don't make any tight turns, the bus will stay upright.

So you don't need bus driver's, you just need a bunch of college students.

You know, that's actually kind of a good point and something I'd been wondering whenever anyone said the reason the buses weren't used was because the drivers had wisely fled New Orleans.

I mean, how much worse could it have been? It seems like you're saying, "Gee, I'm on this plane and we're going to crash because the pilot's dead, but no one is going to even try to fly the plane because no one here is a pilot." I mean, with an attitude like that, Karen Black would have never had a movie career.

You know, that's actually kind of a good point and something I'd been wondering whenever anyone said the reason the buses weren't used was because the drivers had wisely fled New Orleans.

I mean, how much worse could it have been? It seems like you're saying, "Gee, I'm on this plane and we're going to crash because the pilot's dead, but no one is going to even try to fly the plane because no one here is a pilot." I mean, with an attitude like that, Karen Black would have never had a movie career.
lol poor karen black

we'll see how important it is when the dust settles over the probable lawsuits over that bus that caught fire in the evacuation for rita. the bus' registration had expired but they decided to use it anyway. (not that i think they shouldnt have)

You know, that's actually kind of a good point and something I'd been wondering whenever anyone said the reason the buses weren't used was because the drivers had wisely fled New Orleans.

I mean, how much worse could it have been? It seems like you're saying, "Gee, I'm on this plane and we're going to crash because the pilot's dead, but no one is going to even try to fly the plane because no one here is a pilot." I mean, with an attitude like that, Karen Black would have never had a movie career.


While technically anyone who knows how to drive should be able to handle a school bus, in point of fact the law dictates that a commercial licence must be obtained before you are legally permitted to drive one.


Now, for a mayor to hand over the keys to school buses to legally unqualified people simply to have them running would make him and the city legally liable if an accident occured. Frankly, expecting ANY public servant to have started handing out buses long enough prior to the storm to make a difference is rediculous.

So yes, it might have made a difference, but to have expected Nagin to make that part of official planning is rediculous, especially if he had enough drivers available to work the local routes to get people to the local safety of shelters.

Is there anyone "Brownie" didn't blame?

Governor
Mayor
White House
Homeland Security
The media
The victims.

I dont know if any of you have family in LA, I do (and having not read the entire thread, this post is probably a repeat of someone else's)


Brown was not just shuffing the blame off onto someone else. My uncle who resides in LA) and I had a long talk the other night about the disaster response and where it went wrong.

It's widely accepted that Floridians were warning LA to take cover after Katrina passed over Florida (a week or so prior to making landfall at NO). In addition, at least 2 days prior to the evacuation order, meteorologists around the globe were predicting storm surges that would top the levees (Nagin didnt order evacuation until 24 hrs prior to landfall - a full 24-48 hrs later than he should have).

Regular Army troops were standing by for emergency response, but by Federal law are unable to intervene until formally requested by the State Governor - who didnt request assistance until days after landfall. In fact, regular Army troops entered LA before even being given the official go-ahead.

Yes, aid was turned away by FEMA. Whether right or wrong, it's unknown by us how bad the situation with looters and lawlessness at ground zero really was. Simply because the Red Cross is there doesnt mean it's SAFE for the Red Cross to enter.


Note that I am not exonerating Brown - merely defending his testimony that much of the fault lies at the feet of the Governor and the Mayor.

Remember, FEMA's ability to intervene is heavily regulated - as I understand, it requires a request for assistance sent to the Pres, who must declare a federal emergency (which cannot be done without the request - see States' Rights) before FEMA can be activated.

While technically anyone who knows how to drive should be able to handle a school bus, in point of fact the law dictates that a commercial licence must be obtained before you are legally permitted to drive one.


Now, for a mayor to hand over the keys to school buses to legally unqualified people simply to have them running would make him and the city legally liable if an accident occured. Frankly, expecting ANY public servant to have started handing out buses long enough prior to the storm to make a difference is rediculous.

So yes, it might have made a difference, but to have expected Nagin to make that part of official planning is rediculous, especially if he had enough drivers available to work the local routes to get people to the local safety of shelters.


Read back in the thread, steph. It WAS part of the official plan - as set up by both Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin.

They just didn't follow their own plan - at all.

I put links to their emergency plan documents back in the thread.

One big flaw in your plan: the idea that during a mass evacuation ANY vehicle is going faster than 50 feet per hour.

50 MPH?

lmfao!

Didn't know you were writing comedy.....




Oh yeah, and here's another thoughts:

Bus drivers have jobs. Jobs often equate to having cars. Not to mention families. And bus drivers are not generally assumed to be essential services.

So who is driving these buses when none of yur bus drivers show up because they have already hit the road taking their families to safety? Do you just hand over the keys to unqualified drivers and wait for the lawsuits to pile up when a few of them have accidents?

you don't think that would be the case? Did you not hear of the problems they had at the airport in Huston during the evacuation because a large percentage of security folks, baggage handlers, ticket-desk workers etc. didn't show up over the last few days becuase they thought it would be nice to get themselves evacuated too?


What you might like to have happen and what really happens during such an emergency are two very different thing. And expecting all the bus drivers to show up to work and to be able to scoot along highways at speed ferrying people out from a city under a massa evacuation ranks way up there in the realms of fantasy.


Sorry you can't be bothered to read the emergency plans for Louisiana that were drawn up by Blanco and Nagin. I provided the links so that people like you could read them. Please read back in the thread and you will find that Blanco and Nagin WERE COUNTING ON USING THOSE BUSES BUT NEVER MADE THE ATTEMPT.

Brown Blames 'Dysfunctional' Louisiana (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050927015209990001&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

Which goes to show even Bush's sacrificial goat lacks a sense of responsibility and accountability.

The problem is that he is becomming this "Sacrafical Goat" in the first place.

I don't like Bush, and I do think the FEMA director did not provide the adequate actions needed.... But there is plenty of blame to go around.

The effect of this all will be that the FEMA director will be hit on, and nothing will actually be solved... Since everyone wants this blame "Centered" thanks to how the media is inadiquately and inefficiently protraying the situation.

Bush should have done more...
Brownie should have done more...
The NO mayor should have done more...
The LA and Mississippi govenors should have done more...
There was bad construction in sections of the dike system in NO (the dikes, in an engineering sense should have held... but shoddy construction caused them to be overwhelmed)...

There are multiplel evels of blame here.... And if it is to be solved, ALL of the problems need to be addressed, not merely lumping it into a single scape-goat... Finger pointing does not solve the issue... Not by Brownie, and certainly not your own or the media's...

Sorry you can't be bothered to read the emergency plans for Louisiana that were drawn up by Blanco and Nagin. I provided the links so that people like you could read them. Please read back in the thread and you will find that Blanco and Nagin WERE COUNTING ON USING THOSE BUSES BUT NEVER MADE THE ATTEMPT.


No, it's not me that can't read. IT'S YOU!

To highlight the relevant section from your quote:

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.


This section of plan does NOT count on the city having the drivers sticking around to drive the city buses, but rather calls for VOLUNTEER AGENCIES such as other municipalities to help out. Why? Because as I mentioned the city canot force people not designated as emergency services to abandon their families to help out.


And if you can't understand why you made yourself look incredibly foolish taking the time to do the math to come up with an evacuation plan that was premised on a fleet of buses running at 50 MPH during a mass evacuation, then frankly you either a) paid no attention to the news reports on highway condidtions during either of the two recent evacuation, or b) are obtuse beyond help.

Because the only place the buses would have been going was one-way into gridlock.

No, it's not me that can't read. IT'S YOU!

To highlight the relevant section from your quote:



This section of plan does NOT count on the city having the drivers sticking around to drive the city buses, but rather calls for VOLUNTEER AGENCIES such as other municipalities to help out. Why? Because as I mentioned the city canot force people not designated as emergency services to abandon their families to help out.


And if you can't understand why you made yourself look incredibly foolish taking the time to do the math to come up with an evacuation plan that was premised on a fleet of buses running at 50 MPH during a mass evacuation, then frankly you either a) paid no attention to the news reports on highway condidtions during either of the two recent evacuation, or b) are obtuse beyond help.

Because the only place the buses would have been going was one-way into gridlock.


And who drew up the plan? Was it FEMA? No. Was it Bush? No.

It was Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin.

Now, which leaders look like idiots now - in your own words, an unrealistic plan.

Read back in the thread, steph. It WAS part of the official plan - as set up by both Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin.

They just didn't follow their own plan - at all.

I put links to their emergency plan documents back in the thread.


No offence, but it looks like she was narrowly responding to the person who was suggesting that ANYONE could drive a schoolbus rather than discussing the use of schoobuses as a concept.


And according to the Louisiana DMV (http://www.dps.state.la.us/OMV1.nsf/1b2fc6edb63de9b1862564800069f248/f49e283fc26019e8862564ae00546c22?OpenDocument) it appears that a commercial livence WITH a special permit for school buses is indeed required.


And while it's easy to say "yeah, but in an emergency all bets should be of", and I tend to agree with that idea in principle, all it takes is for one unqualified driver to ram into a carload of kids on the highway and the litigation lottery is underway.

A sad commentary on the state of things, but there it is....

So I agree with her and don't think that those who suggested that Nagin should just allow anyone to take out a busload are being reasonable.

My point is that Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin were responsible for having a workable plan for evacuation.

They had NOTHING of the sort.

And then they want to turn around and blame their inability and lack of planning on FEMA? On Bush?

And who drew up the plan? Was it FEMA? No. Was it Bush? No.

It was Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin.

Now, which leaders look like idiots now - in your own words, an unrealistic plan.


No dude, the fact is that plan looks far more reasonable that the silly mis-readings and and bogus assumptions that you are taking from it. Oh yes, and the Louisiana plan WAS scrutinized and vetted by FEMA who are supposed to be the experts on these things.

And in case you hadn't figured out yet why the rest of the country cares more about the FEMA fuckups, let me spell iot out for you:

The local problems will be evaluated and resolved locally.
The state problems will be evaluated and resolved at the state level.
and hopefully other municipalities and states will learn from those mistakes.

But FEMA and the feds are paid for by the rest of the country, and the rest of the country hopes that they will be there for them if it is ever THEIR necks on the line in the face of a disaster. So the WHOLE COUNTRY wants the federal problems investigated and resolved because they are paying for it and may someday need it.

And right now their confidence in the Federal readiness is shaken by what they saw.

Nagin? sure he made mistakes.
Blanoc? Same thing.

But if you live anywhere BESIDES louisiana then that is not YOUR problem. But FEMA is.

Or, 205 more buses: http://static.flickr.com/26/40217127_c4499b3641_o.jpg

New Orleans owns those buses. Here's their significance

Actually here is the significance, 99% of all the drivers for those buses evacuated and there was no one to drive the buses.

Actually here is the significance, 99% of all the drivers for those buses evacuated and there was no one to drive the buses.which begs the question... if the buses were important to the evacuation plan, then that would make the drivers also important, right? why were not the drivers informed that in the event of a city evacutation, they would be needed? someone didn't send out the memo? or did they (the drivers) just up and decided to desert... like the majority of the Police did?

IMHO, everyone fumbled this one. FEMA, The State of LA, the City of NO and the Feds. but only President Bush said, "I take full responsibility."

Actually here is the significance, 99% of all the drivers for those buses evacuated and there was no one to drive the buses.

They weren't evacuated until after the flooding started. Read your New York Times.

Try again.

<snip>
Nagin? sure he made mistakes.
Blanoc? Same thing.

But if you live anywhere BESIDES louisiana then that is not YOUR problem. But FEMA is.
That's what I've been on about! Mayors and governors are local problems. The feds are everyone's problems, so it makes sense for non-locals to focus on them. Also, I'm sick and tired of this new fad of he-started-it politicking in which it's okay to be a total fuck up as long as you're not the only one in the room. So just because Nagin and Blanco failed, that means that FEMA can't be blamed for any of their failings. But hardly anybody ever addresses those issues because they're all too busy trying to make excuses for these federal level losers. (grrr...frustration...)

which begs the question... if the buses were important to the evacuation plan, then that would make the drivers also important, right? why were not the drivers informed that in the event of a city evacutation, they would be needed? someone didn't send out the memo? or did they (the drivers) just up and decided to desert... like the majority of the Police did?

IMHO, everyone fumbled this one. FEMA, The State of LA, the City of NO and the Feds. but only President Bush said, "I take full responsibility."

Actually, what he said was, "And to the extent that the federal government didn’t fully do its job right, I take responsibility." World of difference between "If I did something wrong, I take responsibility, but I don't think we did anything wrong so me saying this is just lip service," and "I take full responsibility, no qualifiers."

That's what I've been on about! Mayors and governors are local problems. The feds are everyone's problems, so it makes sense for non-locals to focus on them. Also, I'm sick and tired of this new fad of he-started-it politicking in which it's okay to be a total fuck up as long as you're not the only one in the room. So just because Nagin and Blanco failed, that means that FEMA can't be blamed for any of their failings. But hardly anybody ever addresses those issues because they're all too busy trying to make excuses for these federal level losers. (grrr...frustration...)

No, they all screwed up.

One of the problems is that we have three distinct, separate levels of government, and no clear indication of who would really be in charge.

Technically, unless the Governor abdicates her position, she's in charge. FEMA literally has to wait for her to give them orders (and hopefully, they're not screwups, which most of them are).

As for Mayor Nagin, who released a DVD to the public six months before the hurricane, he stresses that in the event of a hurricane, if you're a New Orleans resident, "you're on your own".

Good thing they elected such an assclown as their public servant.

Now I'm hearing ads on the TV and radio. Saying it's up to you to be prepared for a disaster or terrorist attack, and you should be prepared to be self-sufficient for three or more days. Water. Food. Alternative Shelter. Transportation.

What they don't mention is that the police, like the New Orleans Coward Police, will run away and leave you at the mercy of armed looters.

So it's a good thing my family is heavily armed.

Actually here is the significance, 99% of all the drivers for those buses evacuated and there was no one to drive the buses.

And we also have to consider the 200+ police officers that abandoned their duties as well.

IMHO, everyone fumbled this one. FEMA, The State of LA, the City of NO and the Feds. but only President Bush said, "I take full responsibility."


Hes the only man in the group. And I'd like to think the weak links will be discarded and replaced with people with backbones and realistic plans.
People that know how to deal with people that cant or wont help themselves out of harm's way.

Actually, what he said was, "And to the extent that the federal government didn’t fully do its job right, I take responsibility." World of difference between "If I did something wrong, I take responsibility, but I don't think we did anything wrong so me saying this is just lip service," and "I take full responsibility, no qualifiers."and that is right. the President can only assume responsibility on a FEDERAL Level. not state or county/city.

but that's still more than what anyone else said.

Did the Governor say anything about the state's failure?
The Mayor?
FEMA?

no it was all eveyone elses fault.

No, they all screwed up.

One of the problems is that we have three distinct, separate levels of government, and no clear indication of who would really be in charge.

Technically, unless the Governor abdicates her position, she's in charge. FEMA literally has to wait for her to give them orders (and hopefully, they're not screwups, which most of them are).

As for Mayor Nagin, who released a DVD to the public six months before the hurricane, he stresses that in the event of a hurricane, if you're a New Orleans resident, "you're on your own".

Good thing they elected such an assclown as their public servant.

Now I'm hearing ads on the TV and radio. Saying it's up to you to be prepared for a disaster or terrorist attack, and you should be prepared to be self-sufficient for three or more days. Water. Food. Alternative Shelter. Transportation.

What they don't mention is that the police, like the New Orleans Coward Police, will run away and leave you at the mercy of armed looters.

So it's a good thing my family is heavily armed.
What do you mean "no, everyone screwed up"? I just finished saying that. I've been saying it ever since the freakin' levees broke. And I get nothing but arguments from people who use my words but seem to mean something different.

My complaint here is that every time I say everyone screwed up but the ones I have to deal with are the feds, somebody else (notice how I refrain from charcterizing them) comes back with, no, *everybody* screwed up, therefore the feds aren't to blame. But NOBODY tells me why the feds shouldn't be to blame for the the things *they* did wrong, or why I should be more concerned with the failures of other states' officials, rather than the failures of the feds, which might actually affect my life directly.

Bottom line: I don't care about Louisiana's lousy government. I care about FEMA being a bunch of screw-ups because they might come to my state.

Muravyets:

The question is not did the Feds screw up - the question is WHAT did the Feds screw up?

And the only way to answer that question is to figure out where the State and Local Gov't failures were and how that affected FEMA's response.

Was FEMA late getting there? In reality, no. They werent asked until too late - that doesnt make it FEMA's fault for being days late getting to NO.

If you really want to debate FEMA's faults, stop focusing on NO where there were so many at fault and focus on the rest of the gulf coast that was hit harder than NO - Gulport and Biloxi were almost completely wiped off the map, but because of good Local and State planning, fewer people were left stranded. This is where you start looking for FEMA's screw ups, not in a place where much of the trouble was started by the State and Local Gov'ts.

Bottom line: I don't care about Louisiana's lousy government. I care about FEMA being a bunch of screw-ups because they might come to my state.

Well, other than the $236 million no-bid contract to Carnival for space that's not even being fully used, here are some notable blunders on the part of FEMA:

FEMA will now reimburse faith-based organizations that voluntarily provided relief efforts in Katrina. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9495550/

FEMA turned back Wal-Mart trucks loaded with food and water.

FEMA ordered a coast guard ship which offered local authorities fuel to recind the offer.

FEMA turned away firefighters from Houston, Maryland and elsewhere.

FEMA cut the emergency communication lines for Jefferson Parish, forcing the sheriff to restore it and post armed guards to protect it from FEMA. (all of these from the NYT, Sept. 5, 2005).

No, they all screwed up.

One of the problems is that we have three distinct, separate levels of government, and no clear indication of who would really be in charge.


And yet you refuse to discuss the Federal issues and instead always try to turn things around to blaming the locals.


Technically, unless the Governor abdicates her position, she's in charge. FEMA literally has to wait for her to give them orders (and hopefully, they're not screwups, which most of them are).


Both right AND Wrong. The Governor is in charge of state resources including the national guard. She has no jurisdiction over federal troops or FEMA.

As for Mayor Nagin, who released a DVD to the public six months before the hurricane, he stresses that in the event of a hurricane, if you're a New Orleans resident, "you're on your own".

Good thing they elected such an assclown as their public servant.


I've already pointed out where you completely misread the disaster plan once. What I find odd from such a self-sufficient individualist as you seem to be that you want the whole city to turn pussy and expect the government to bail you all out in an emergency.

What ever happened to personal responibility where able?

NO city has the capability to do a 100% evacuation in 72 hours. Not one. Certainly not one in a relatively poor area of the country operating on a more limited tax base than some others have. Telling people that they should be prepared to look after themselves is not only honest, it's realistic.

Or do you expect DVD's going out saying "Mr Jones at 12 anystreet, we've got your covered. Mr. Smith next door? Tough shit."

Would you have prefered a pansified feel-good DVD that had the city promising to pull resources out of their ass that they didn't have and promising to airlift the whole city and their possessions out in the face of a hurricane?

Nagin's DVD spelled out the truth. That the city could not possibly be there to help everyone.

Oh, and look - he was right.

But still you try and spin that into a personal attack on him.

Funny though, I haven't heard you once go after Brown or Bush for their fuckups by sinking to purile name calling.


But it's everyone else that's partisan right?

:rolleyes:

Now I'm hearing ads on the TV and radio. Saying it's up to you to be prepared for a disaster or terrorist attack, and you should be prepared to be self-sufficient for three or more days. Water. Food. Alternative Shelter. Transportation.

What they don't mention is that the police, like the New Orleans Coward Police, will run away and leave you at the mercy of armed looters.

So it's a good thing my family is heavily armed.

So what you're saying is that what happened in New Orleans would likely happen anywhere under similar circumstance. That you recognize that this is an unfortunate element of basic human nature, that not all are equally virtuous.

In other words - you just blew your own ass out of the water. Big time.




Because admitting that it is a likely element of ANY major disaster and that you are glad that you have the foresight to be personally prepared sure as fuck takes the heat off trying to blame one mayor for things entirely out of his control that you admit you KNOW will happen everywhere under similar circumstances.

Here's the bigger problem: we are not prepared should something unexpected happen. If it were terrorists that had blown up the levies, the government would not be able to get the survivors out. FEMA can point all it wants to the incompetence of mayors and underlings, but when it comes down to it, coordination between local, state and federal authorities rests with FEMA.

Brown blaming the mayor of New Orleans for not responding well to the disaster is like the FBI blaming the cops in Minneapolis for not catching Zacharias Moussaoui. Sure, the FBI relies on local law inforcement agencies to aid it in preventing terrorism, but at the end of the day, anti-terrorism is the responsibility of the Federal Gov't. Sure FEMA works with local agencies to provide aid and evacuation, but at the end of the day, FEMA is responsible for responding to naturl disasters.

If we are to truley be prepared for a large terrorist event, we need to be able to move people out of major metropolitan areas quickly, get rescue personel in, and prevent as much death and destruction as possible. We cannot assume that every podunk local government is going to be ready to handle whatever is thrown their way. And the fact that the city, the state and the federal government weren't talking with each other to me shows that the Department of Homeland Security has not created the type of cohesion in government it was created for in the first place. Even if Blanco and the rest were running around like chickens with their heads cut off, it points more to a failure at the federal level to provide guidence and support than it does to poor local government.

Here's the bigger problem: we are not prepared should something unexpected happen. If it were terrorists that had blown up the levies, the government would not be able to get the survivors out. FEMA can point all it wants to the incompetence of mayors and underlings, but when it comes down to it, coordination between local, state and federal authorities rests with FEMA.

Brown blaming the mayor of New Orleans for not responding well to the disaster is like the FBI blaming the cops in Minneapolis for not catching Zacharias Moussaoui. Sure, the FBI relies on local law inforcement agencies to aid it in preventing terrorism, but at the end of the day, anti-terrorism is the responsibility of the Federal Gov't. Sure FEMA works with local agencies to provide aid and evacuation, but at the end of the day, FEMA is responsible for responding to naturl disasters.

If we are to truley be prepared for a large terrorist event, we need to be able to move people out of major metropolitan areas quickly, get rescue personel in, and prevent as much death and destruction as possible. We cannot assume that every podunk local government is going to be ready to handle whatever is thrown their way. And the fact that the city, the state and the federal government weren't talking with each other to me shows that the Department of Homeland Security has not created the type of cohesion in government it was created for in the first place. Even if Blanco and the rest were running around like chickens with their heads cut off, it points more to a failure at the federal level to provide guidence and support than it does to poor local government.

States' Rights.

Look it up. You'll find that it restricts FEMA's interactions to those where the State has asked for Federal intervention. In the event of a terrorist attack, FEMA might not even be involved (depending on the size of the attack). FEMA is NOT ultimately responsible for disaster response, Local and State Gov'ts are. FEMA is there to augment the Local disaster response, coordination of response teams.

Funny thing about Rita was that almost the entire Texas gulf coast was evacuated in the 72 hrs prior to landfall...something that could've been done in NO had Nagin ordered the evacuation as soon as there was sufficient reason to believe NO would be flooded.

Surprisingly, very few other municipalities had the evacuation problems NO had. Not by a long stretch, because they were evacuated much earlier.

States' Rights.

Look it up. You'll find that it restricts FEMA's interactions to those where the State has asked for Federal intervention. In the event of a terrorist attack, FEMA might not even be involved (depending on the size of the attack). FEMA is NOT ultimately responsible for disaster response, Local and State Gov'ts are. FEMA is there to augment the Local disaster response, coordination of response teams.

Funny thing about Rita was that almost the entire Texas gulf coast was evacuated in the 72 hrs prior to landfall...something that could've been done in NO had Nagin ordered the evacuation as soon as there was sufficient reason to believe NO would be flooded.

Surprisingly, very few other municipalities had the evacuation problems NO had. Not by a long stretch, because they were evacuated much earlier.

and the Governor DID ask for FEMA involvement even before the storm hit asking for "everything you've got". That's a pretty direct request to FEMA to get your ass down here and help.


And just curious, but how much of the success in Rita's evacutation do you think can be directly attributable to public motivation?

Katrina had the worst-case scenario right up front in people's minds, and where in the past people might have been more likely to try and wait it out, or wait until the last minute - this time around lots of people hit the road early.

And despite that the rescue teams STILL had to go in and yank people off of rooftops, so 100% evacuation was NOT achieved - not by a long shot as demonstrated simply by a couple of NS posters here who stuck it out in the path of the storm.

So what you're saying is that what happened in New Orleans would likely happen anywhere under similar circumstance. That you recognize that this is an unfortunate element of basic human nature, that not all are equally virtuous.
And, like the people who were law abiding people who owned guns, and defended their property against armed looters, I would, as they did, kill dozens of people at will.


In other words - you just blew your own ass out of the water. Big time.

Because admitting that it is a likely element of ANY major disaster and that you are glad that you have the foresight to be personally prepared sure as fuck takes the heat off trying to blame one mayor for things entirely out of his control that you admit you KNOW will happen everywhere under similar circumstances.
Nope - far from it. I am someone who believes in maximum personal responsibility and maximum personal freedom. So those people who are crying for government help have only themselves to blame - not Bush.

And I attack Nagin, because he's said that if only he had the resources, none of this would have happened. He has only himself to blame for not organizing what he could. Grandstanding saying that it was racism that kept Federal aid from coming.

And, like the people who were law abiding people who owned guns, and defended their property against armed looters, I would, as they did, kill dozens of people at will.


Nope - far from it. I am someone who believes in maximum personal responsibility and maximum personal freedom. So those people who are crying for government help have only themselves to blame - not Bush.

And I attack Nagin, because he's said that if only he had the resources, none of this would have happened. He has only himself to blame for not organizing what he could. Grandstanding saying that it was racism that kept Federal aid from coming.


So, in other words, you are a hypocrite.

You state a belief in maximum personal responsibilty, and call NAgin an "assclown" for telling his citizens that they need to exercise..... personal responsibility.

And now you blame a mayor for not having resources needed beyond what ANY city would normally have, and lay all of the blame of that on him without any thought given to the fact that New Orleans is one of the poorest cities in the country, and so by definition will be lacking in resources due to it's lacking in tax base.


The racism whine issue? That is a valid complaint about him and one that I agree with - although he was less vociferous blaming that as the cause than many others I heard.

But your extending that valid complaint to a blanket condemnation of him and the efforts of the local authorities during the hurricane though is patently rediculous. They are, after all, entirely seperate things.

So, in other words, you are a hypocrite.

You state a belief in maximum personal responsibilty, and call NAgin an "assclown" for telling his citizens that they need to exercise..... personal responsibility.

And now you blame a mayor for not having resources needed beyond what ANY city would normally have, and lay all of the blame of that on him without any thought given to the fact that New Orleans is one of the poorest cities in the country, and so by definition will be lacking in resources due to it's lacking in tax base.

The racism whine issue? That is a valid complaint about him and one that I agree with - although he was less vociferous blaming that as the cause than many others I heard.

But your extending that valid complaint to a blanket condemnation of him and the efforts of the local authorities during the hurricane though is patently rediculous. They are, after all, entirely seperate things.

If he doesn't have the ability to protect people, even with the people and resources he has, and states that he can't do anything, he needs to resign, and perhaps the position of mayor would be better filled by a file clerk.

Take the New Orleans Police, for example. At Day 3, the Louisiana State Police reported that 80 percent of the New Orleans Police had deserted, and joined the armed looters.

Mayor Nagin really showed some leadership there, didn't he? After all, he HAD those resources and they were titularly under his "control".

If he put out that DVD saying "you're on you're own", then perhaps they should permanently dissolved the useless, cowardly, and criminal members of the New Orleans Police and replace them (only if Nagin feels like attempting to enforce the law) with Blackwater consultants.

Nagin can't have it both ways - the authority, the salary, the shouting, the accusations against everyone but him - and then say he couldn't do anything. He didn't even TRY.

I think that the moment he put out that DVD, he should have resigned.

I feel the same way about the current crop of public service announcements about how to prepare for a disaster. Well, if you want me to do it myself (and I'm doing it, and I'm more than willing), then reduce my taxes by eliminating the so-called organizations and personnel that are supposedly "in place" to say "we can't do anything".

If he doesn't have the ability to protect people, even with the people and resources he has, and states that he can't do anything, he needs to resign, and perhaps the position of mayor would be better filled by a file clerk.

Take the New Orleans Police, for example. At Day 3, the Louisiana State Police reported that 80 percent of the New Orleans Police had deserted, and joined the armed looters.

Mayor Nagin really showed some leadership there, didn't he? After all, he HAD those resources and they were titularly under his "control".

If he put out that DVD saying "you're on you're own", then perhaps they should permanently dissolved the useless, cowardly, and criminal members of the New Orleans Police and replace them (only if Nagin feels like attempting to enforce the law) with Blackwater consultants.

Nagin can't have it both ways - the authority, the salary, the shouting, the accusations against everyone but him - and then say he couldn't do anything. He didn't even TRY.

I think that the moment he put out that DVD, he should have resigned.

I feel the same way about the current crop of public service announcements about how to prepare for a disaster. Well, if you want me to do it myself (and I'm doing it, and I'm more than willing), then reduce my taxes by eliminating the so-called organizations and personnel that are supposedly "in place" to say "we can't do anything".

Beg your pardon?

NOTHING WAS DONE OR EVEN TRIED?
so, the 80% of citizens evacuated were transported out by aliens after a premonition?

And 80% of the cops joined the looters?

And a mayor telling the citizens the truth about the actual capabilities of the city in the event of a hurrican should immediately resign? What, so the next guy can do another study and say "yep - he was right. Whoops - now I have to resign too?"

Sorry, but you have gone so far out there that it's hard to even dignify this sort of total BS with an answer.



How about you come on back when you get in touch with reality

Beg your pardon?

NOTHING WAS DONE OR EVEN TRIED?
so, the 80% of citizens evacuated were transported out by aliens after a premonition?

I guess that's why Nagin left 100,000 people in the city, eh?
Nagin did not transport ANY of those people out - that was done prior by people on their own, or by later efforts of the National Guard - not Nagin.

And 80% of the cops joined the looters?
Yes. As stated by the commander of the Louisiana State Police, on Day 3. And on video you can see the police looting.

And a mayor telling the citizens the truth about the actual capabilities of the city in the event of a hurrican should immediately resign? What, so the next guy can do another study and say "yep - he was right. Whoops - now I have to resign too?"

He knew about his inability for years. And he did nothing except write up plans with Governor Blanco that he knew he could never implement.

He's also responsible for every policeman under his authority who quit to become a looter.

and that is right. the President can only assume responsibility on a FEDERAL Level. not state or county/city.

but that's still more than what anyone else said.

Did the Governor say anything about the state's failure?
The Mayor?
FEMA?

no it was all eveyone elses fault.

Which is pretty much exactly what Bush said except he has better speech writers and spin doctors to make it sound like he's taking responsibility when he isn't.

I have never blamed Bush for the situation in New Orleans directly. I have never said it was his job to make sure the levees didn't break or everyone was evacuated. The fact is that all levels of government screwed that one up from FEMA on down to the Mayor.

Bush's culpability for this situation comes in the with rampant cronyism he's exhibited by appointing people who are unqualified or inappropriate for their positions. In addition to that huge list Eut posted the other day, Bush is now trying to get Julie Myers appointed head of the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. Myers has nearly zero experience with Immigration or Customs law, having only served (briefly) as Chief of Staff to Michael Chertoff, as an associate under Ken Starr and as a special assistant to Bush as a glorifed HR specialist. In trying to justify her experience to Congress, Myers pointed out that she was assistant secretary (for a year) for export enforcement at the department of Commerce. She says she oversaw 170 staff and a $25 million dollar budget. However, US Immigration and Customs has 200,000 staff and an annual budget of $4 billion.

She has no qualifications EXCEPT her uncle is Air Force General Richard B Myers and she is currently married to Chertoff's Joint Chief of Staff, John Wood. Again, the Bush administration views appointments to government positions not as jobs that have to be done by skilled professionals with years of experience in their duties, but as political prizes to be handed out to friends and family like some sort of party favor.

That is what Bush should be apologizing for. Cronyism pure and simple. It's that sort of approach to appointments that leads to disasters like New Orleans.

Bush's culpability for this situation comes in the with rampant cronyism he's exhibited by appointing people who are unqualified or inappropriate for their positions. In addition to that huge list Eut posted the other day, Bush is now trying to get Julie Myers appointed head of the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. Myers has nearly zero experience with Immigration or Customs law, having only served (briefly) as Chief of Staff to Michael Chertoff, as an associate under Ken Starr and as a special assistant to Bush as a glorifed HR specialist. In trying to justify her experience to Congress, Myers pointed out that she was assistant secretary (for a year) for export enforcement at the department of Commerce. She says she oversaw 170 staff and a $25 million dollar budget. However, US Immigration and Customs has 200,000 staff and an annual budget of $4 billion.

She has no qualifications EXCEPT her uncle is Air Force General Richard B Myers and she is currently married to Chertoff's Joint Chief of Staff, John Wood. Again, the Bush administration views appointments to government positions not as jobs that have to be done by skilled professionals with years of experience in their duties, but as political prizes to be handed out to friends and family like some sort of party favor.

That is what Bush should be apologizing for. Cronyism pure and simple. It's that sort of approach to appointments that leads to disasters like New Orleans.

Cronyism is part of government, Bush or not. It's the way the system is designed.

Maryland has that problem to an extreme, since the previous Democratic governor radically expanded "at will" positions - essentially turning most of the state's bureaucracy at all levels into political appointments that do not require approval.

Now that the Republican governor of Maryland is trying to trim the weeds and replace them with his own people, the Democrats are crying foul.

I've met many government employees - and the higher the position, the more likely they are to be an idiot.

Yes. As stated by the commander of the Louisiana State Police, on Day 3. And on video you can see the police looting.


Oh, well if you saw it quoted by someone on TV then it must be true.

Using this simplistic form of reasoning, Mayor Nagin was correct in that the federal response WAS faulty due to racism. After all, he said it on TV - so it MUST be true.
:D


He knew about his inability for years. And he did nothing except write up plans with Governor Blanco that he knew he could never implement.


He was elected to office in 2002 and was widely praisied for his attempts for many of the recent initiatives to cean up the police force and to improve other social services to the city.

An odd thing about being mayor is that you don't get to pull money out of your ass that doesn't exist to perform miracles. You do the best you can with what you get given in the way of tax revenue. A mayorship is NOT a dictatorship after all.

He's also responsible for every policeman under his authority who quit to become a looter.

Yep, there's that personal responsibility thing you claim to believe in again....

:rolleyes:


Gosh - I guess that in the midst of everything that needed to be done, what the mayor SHOULD have been doing is wandering the streets having shootouts with rogue policemen...



A question for you: Does your hypocricy have no limits?

Oh, well if you saw it quoted by someone on TV then it must be true.

Using this simplistic form of reasoning, Mayor Nagin was correct in that the federal response WAS faulty due to racism. After all, he said it on TV - so it MUST be true.
:D

I'm more likely to believe it because I heard it on NPR, and because the NPR reporter said that it had been confirmed.

I also believe the police becoming looters because I saw video of them looting a store and threatening others with guns while doing so.

He was elected to office in 2002 and was widely praisied for his attempts for many of the recent initiatives to cean up the police force and to improve other social services to the city.

Obviously, he picked the wrong people for police.

So you're going to deny the police became looters?


An odd thing about being mayor is that you don't get to pull money out of your ass that doesn't exist to perform miracles. You do the best you can with what you get given in the way of tax revenue. A mayorship is NOT a dictatorship after all.

He had plenty of money. He knew about this months in advance. And he could have asked Governor Blanco for the money. But he didn't. And they wrote completely unusable plans together to cover their asses.


Yep, there's that personal responsibility thing you claim to believe in again....


If he's not going to do anything, then stop taxing me. If he's not going to do anything, he needs to go to work for McDonalds.

I can be personally responsible - and it's easier if you stop taxing me.

Why should I pay for someone who can't do the job, won't do the job, tells everyone he won't, can't, and then turns around and blames it on everyone else?

I can take care of myself, thank you.

Gosh - I guess that in the midst of everything that needed to be done, what the mayor SHOULD have been doing is wandering the streets having shootouts with rogue policemen...

It would have been better than him standing there calling the rest of America racists for not helping.



A question for you: Does your hypocricy have no limits?[/QUOTE]

Cronyism is part of government, Bush or not. It's the way the system is designed.

The problem, Sierra, as with so many of your arguments, is the assumption that just because something may be "a part" of something, that give it legitimacy.

Did cronyism exist before Bush? Sure. Will it exist after he's gone? Probably. This does not now nor has it ever made it "right".

It's a risk you take. If you appoint an unqualified person because you're friends with them or their family or because of some other connection completely unrelated to the job at hand, you are betting they will never have to actually come through in their job. If they don't, people probably won't make a stink because there are so many other issues to address that an idiot in a position they're unqualified for is so far down the list so long as they're not visibly or violently screwing up.

However, should that appointee become a national focus and fall on their face, well, you lost your bet and now you have to pay. You have to take responsbility for putting them in that position even though they should never have been there in the first place and you have to suffer the rest of your appointments being called into question.

Bush got caught. Pure and simple. Furthermore, the length and bredth of inappropriate appointments in this administration is beginning to be fully understood by people on his own side. When you're own pundits and party are speaking out against you on the subject, you've got a problem.


Maryland has that problem to an extreme, since the previous Democratic governor radically expanded "at will" positions - essentially turning most of the state's bureaucracy at all levels into political appointments that do not require approval.

Now that the Republican governor of Maryland is trying to trim the weeds and replace them with his own people, the Democrats are crying foul.

I've met many government employees - and the higher the position, the more likely they are to be an idiot.

Quite possibly true. However, if you're the idiot who gets caught stacking the administration with other idiots, then you should expect to be crucified for it.

The problem, Sierra, as with so many of your arguments, is the assumption that just because something may be "a part" of something, that give it legitimacy.

Did cronyism exist before Bush? Sure. Will it exist after he's gone? Probably. This does not now nor has it ever made it "right".

I'm not saying it makes it right. I'm not saying it's legitimate. I'm just saying that is the nature of our form of government.

Why do you think I'm saying it's right? I complain about cronyism as much as anyone (I really have a problem with Maryland's transformation).

It's a risk you take. If you appoint an unqualified person because you're friends with them or their family or because of some other connection completely unrelated to the job at hand, you are betting they will never have to actually come through in their job. If they don't, people probably won't make a stink because there are so many other issues to address that an idiot in a position they're unqualified for is so far down the list so long as they're not visibly or violently screwing up.

I don't believe there should be appointees - not without the same scrutiny that would fall on a regular employee.

Bush got caught. Pure and simple. Furthermore, the length and bredth of inappropriate appointments in this administration is beginning to be fully understood by people on his own side. When you're own pundits and party are speaking out against you on the subject, you've got a problem.
What I find problematic is that you, and others here, express shock and dismay that cronyism and idiots abound.

I live here in the DC area. I've known for my whole life that almost every government appointee, whether Democrat, Republican, or otherwise, is one slipup away from the world discovering that they are complete idiots.

It's why I won't work for the government, and won't take assignments as a government contractor. Because I smell everyday the whiff that you seem to think only recently came from Bush.

Muravyets:

The question is not did the Feds screw up - the question is WHAT did the Feds screw up?

And the only way to answer that question is to figure out where the State and Local Gov't failures were and how that affected FEMA's response.

Was FEMA late getting there? In reality, no. They werent asked until too late - that doesnt make it FEMA's fault for being days late getting to NO.

If you really want to debate FEMA's faults, stop focusing on NO where there were so many at fault and focus on the rest of the gulf coast that was hit harder than NO - Gulport and Biloxi were almost completely wiped off the map, but because of good Local and State planning, fewer people were left stranded. This is where you start looking for FEMA's screw ups, not in a place where much of the trouble was started by the State and Local Gov'ts.
I'm sorry, but while all those points are true, I reject them as mere excuses, because even after they went into action and arrived on the scene, they continued to screw up. The workers on site were extremely effective, but they were being thwarted at every turn by disorganized and uncooperative bureaucrats. The fact is that the very planning for how so-called homeland security is supposed to be carried out since 9/11 has focused on reorgnizing and expanding the bureaucracy, at the expense of actually procuring supplies and establishng supply lines and communications lines, which is what FEMA should be doing *before* emergencies hit -- and which the federal government has been telling us they have been doing ever since 9/11. Clearly, they have not done it, or FEMA would have been ready with such basic items as tarps, and would not have spent the past month shuttling trucks of ice all over the country without ever delivering any ice to anyone (costing millions of dollars, btw).

Katrina was nothing but proof of how they have been wasting our time and our money for years. And yes, as to Mississippi and Alabama, the fact that FEMA did not open its first field office in Biloxi until 16 days after the storm only makes them look even worse.

I'm sorry, but while all those points are true, I reject them as mere excuses, because even after they went into action and arrived on the scene, they continued to screw up. The workers on site were extremely effective, but they were being thwarted at every turn by disorganized and uncooperative bureaucrats. The fact is that the very planning for how so-called homeland security is supposed to be carried out since 9/11 has focused on reorgnizing and expanding the bureaucracy, at the expense of actually procuring supplies and establishng supply lines and communications lines, which is what FEMA should be doing *before* emergencies hit -- and which the federal government has been telling us they have been doing ever since 9/11. Clearly, they have not done it, or FEMA would have been ready with such basic items as tarps, and would not have spent the past month shuttling trucks of ice all over the country without ever delivering any ice to anyone (costing millions of dollars, btw).

Katrina was nothing but proof of how they have been wasting our time and our money for years. And yes, as to Mississippi and Alabama, the fact that FEMA did not open its first field office in Biloxi until 16 days after the storm only makes them look even worse.


Most Federal government employees are people who couldn't make a living in the private sector. Met far too many of them - and I refuse to work with them or for them.

I'm not saying it makes it right. I'm not saying it's legitimate. I'm just saying that is the nature of our form of government.


And that is exactly my point. Cancer is "natural", so does that mean we shouldn't work to cure it? Regardless of the inherant value of cronyism in our form of government, that does not mean we shouldn't be dismayed and upset when it is publicly discovered.


Why do you think I'm saying it's right? I complain about cronyism as much as anyone (I really have a problem with Maryland's transformation).

I don't believe there should be appointees - not without the same scrutiny that would fall on a regular employee.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. However, after yesterday and your advocating of wholesale slaughter in the Middle East, I feel perfectly justified in viewing anything you say with skepticism.

Frankly, you pissed me off as Whispering Legs and you piss me off now and I suppose that's a good thing because it makes me think although it also means that sometimes I respond viscerally rather than rationally. For that, I apologize.


What I find problematic is that you, and others here, express shock and dismay that cronyism and idiots abound.

And why shouldn't we? The fact remains that cronyism is more rife in some administrations than others. For example, while cronyism existed under Clinton (and I decried it then as much as I do now), it was not nearly as far spread or, frankly, contemptuous as it is under Bush. So yes, when it it flapped in my face with an attitude of, "What are you gonna do about it?" then I'm going to respond louder.


I live here in the DC area. I've known for my whole life that almost every government appointee, whether Democrat, Republican, or otherwise, is one slipup away from the world discovering that they are complete idiots.

It's why I won't work for the government, and won't take assignments as a government contractor. Because I smell everyday the whiff that you seem to think only recently came from Bush.

I never once said that it only came recently from Bush. I am not nearly so naive to think cronyism is something Bush brought in only recently. Hell, Kennedy put it best, when explaining it, by saying that the White House is a lousy place to make friends.

What I actually said is that it's a bet and Bush lost. Now he has to answer for it. It's that simple. Had this level of inappropriate appointment been present in Clinton's administration, or perhaps more cogently, had this level of visible inappropriate appointment been present, then I would have had a similarly vocal response.

I never once said that it only came recently from Bush. I am not nearly so naive to think cronyism is something Bush brought in only recently. Hell, Kennedy put it best, when explaining it, by saying that the White House is a lousy place to make friends.

What I actually said is that it's a bet and Bush lost. Now he has to answer for it. It's that simple. Had this level of inappropriate appointment been present in Clinton's administration, or perhaps more cogently, had this level of visible inappropriate appointment been present, then I would have had a similarly vocal response.

Most posters here believe that if Bush were not in office, there would be no terrorism, no natural disasters, and the government would be completely competent from top to bottom.

You might not believe that, but some here most certainly do.

Jocelyn Elders is a good example of an idiot - I met her in person in the 1990s, and if her IQ is higher than 80, I'll eat my shoes. Fortunately, she was only Surgeon General, and not in a position that required her to really save anyone's life by her mental faculties or decisionmaking capability.

<snip>
What I find problematic is that you, and others here, express shock and dismay that cronyism and idiots abound.
<snip>
Speaking only for myself, I'm not the slightest bit shocked by government cronyism. (Somebody once said something about how he didn't mind the popes of history engaging in rampant nepotism because at least it showed the old boys loved someone. ;) )

But I am disgusted by this particular brand of cronyism. Big-time corrupt cronyism used to be reserved for congressional committees and no-bid contracts. Appointee cronyism was usually kept to status-symbol jobs like ambassador to Luxembourg, etc., where the appointee is unlikely to do any damage even if he does decide to show up.

The Bush administration, however, treats the government like nothing more than an extension of their frat houses and the Skull and Bones Club. They hand out high ranking, professional positions like Director of FEMA as if its the same as Pledge Master, or whatever. And they seem to think it's just as fanciful and fake a job. Well, it's not, and their play-acting is costing lives and damaging this country.

Most Federal government employees are people who couldn't make a living in the private sector. Met far too many of them - and I refuse to work with them or for them.
And that's something we shouldn't be addressing, now that we see how bad the results can be?

And that's something we shouldn't be addressing, now that we see how bad the results can be?

Kind of hard to do, don't you think? Not that we shouldn't try.

But I might point out for a start, that both candidates for President the last time around were members of Skull and Bones.

Not just Bush.

IMHO, both parties need to go, but that's not going to happen. The whole system is geared around feeding the two party system.

Ever wonder why major corporations give equally to BOTH parties at the same time? It covers their bets. No matter who wins, the corporations win.

Most posters here believe that if Bush were not in office, there would be no terrorism, no natural disasters, and the government would be completely competent from top to bottom.

You might not believe that, but some here most certainly do.

Fine then, I would suggest when you are debating with them you should do your upmost to dissuade them from this idea. However, it is not needed in my case and appears to be little more than an evasion of the issues.

I would also suggest that, were Bush not in office, we might not have the type and rampant nature of cronyism we are seeing. Muravyets outlined it very succinctly.

Most posters here believe that if Bush were not in office, there would be no terrorism, no natural disasters, and the government would be completely competent from top to bottom.
I'm sorry, but I think that statement is insulting and is meant to be nothing but insulting. The criticisms here have been on point and reasonable, whether you agree with them or not. There are only a few knee-jerk Bush-blamers on this forum -- and, imo, they are outnumbered by knee-jerk Bush-praisers and apologists.

Kind of hard to do, don't you think?

Irrelevant. "Hard" is not a consideration in anything more than how long one is going to have to work at something. Will it be hard? Of course. As you said, the spoil system is pretty much ingrained in our government.

However, when you have an administration that treats the government like it's treated it's last failed companies, more as something to be looted than something to be run, then it is an excellent time to start.


Not that we shouldn't try.

Indeed.


But I might point out for a start, that both candidates for President the last time around were members of Skull and Bones.

Sigh, and? Both candidates are also members of the human race. Being a member of a society or even having political attachments is not the point. The point is what one does with those attachments when one is in power. Objectively, it can be argued that Gore would not have shown the same sort of inappropriate appointment that Bush has nor such a contempt for the offices he's appointing to, but that would only be a theoretical argument because Gore never had the opportunity to prove himself one way or the other. Bush, however, has shown exactly what he thinks of not only the responsibilities of his office, but the order of a well-run government by his appointments. Would cronyism exist without him? Probably. Would we be subject to Bush's Dorm-Room Promotion ideal of appointments? Probably not.

I'm sorry, but I think that statement is insulting and is meant to be nothing but insulting. The criticisms here have been on point and reasonable, whether you agree with them or not. There are only a few knee-jerk Bush-blamers on this forum -- and, imo, they are outnumbered by knee-jerk Bush-praisers and apologists.

I haven't seen that many knee-jerk Bush praisers.

You'll notice that I haven't praised Bush for his job, either.

I also don't believe that, given the relationship between the Federal and State governments, as defined by the Constitution and decades of practice, that the Federal government is even obligated to help in a natural disaster.

That they do so in any form, however inept, is a random blessing.

What I take exception to is the fact that most people who blame Bush have no intention whatsoever of blaming Nagin or Blanco for their similar ineptitude.

I would bet that if we dug a little, we would find cronyism in their ranks as well - in positions where it would have made a difference during the disaster.

We might look at the recently resigned police chief of New Orleans.

I haven't seen that many knee-jerk Bush praisers.

You'll notice that I haven't praised Bush for his job, either.

I also don't believe that, given the relationship between the Federal and State governments, as defined by the Constitution and decades of practice, that the Federal government is even obligated to help in a natural disaster.

That they do so in any form, however inept, is a random blessing.

Nonsense. If the federal government creates an entire department to oversee national emergencies, it takes the onus of responsibility on itself, at least in as far as that specific department and it's actions are concerned. Should this agency exist? Debatable. However, since it clearly does, the idea that it potentially might not is irrelevant to the facts at hand. It exists, it had a job to do, it failed to do that job.


What I take exception to is the fact that most people who blame Bush have no intention whatsoever of blaming Nagin or Blanco for their similar ineptitude.

Meh, plenty of blame to go around. Nagin and Blanco are corrupt as hell and deserve their own share of blame.


I would bet that if we dug a little, we would find cronyism in their ranks as well - in positions where it would have made a difference during the disaster.

We might look at the recently resigned police chief of New Orleans.

Irrelevant to the issue at hand which is FEMA's lack of responsible action, Brown's mismanagement of his duties and Bush's wide-spread cronyism. Of course it exists at a state level in Louisiana and it is as disturbing and vile and worthy of exposure and judgement as at a Federal level. What is disturbing to me, however, is the number of people who, in their rush to defend Bush (and I'm not saying you're one of these) seem to feel that a mistake made at the state level removes culpability at a Federal level. The corrupt nature of Blanco or Nagin is immaterial to the question of Brown's competence for his position, the response of FEMA or Bush's mishandled appointment of Brown in the first place.

Nonsense. If the federal government creates an entire department to oversee national emergencies, it takes the onus of responsibility on themselves, at least in as far as that specific department and it's actions are concerned. Should this agency exist? Debatable. However, since it clearly does, the idea that it potentially might not is irrelevant to the facts at hand. It exists, it had a job to do, it failed to do that job.

I believe that FEMA promises a lot of things beyond what its actual authority, size, and budget indicate. Which is stupid. Unless there's a nuclear attack, it really has very little authority.


Meh, plenty of blame to go around. Nagin and Blanco are corrupt as hell and deserve their own share of blame.
Well, if you say that on this forum, people will say you're a Bush butt-kisser.



Irrelevant to the issue at hand which is FEMA's lack of responsible action, Brown's mismanagement of his duties and Bush's wide-spread cronyism. Of course it exists at a state level in Louisiana and it is as disturbing and vile and worthy of exposure and judgement as at a Federal level. What is disturbing to me, however, is the number of people who, in their rush to defend Bush (and I'm not saying you're one of these) seem to feel that a mistake made at the state level removes culpability at a Federal level. The corrupt nature of Blanco or Nagin is immaterial to the question of Brown's competence for his position, the response of FEMA or Bush's mishandled appointment of Brown in the first place.
It doesn't remove culpability.

What I take objection to is the idea that Blanco and Nagin are somehow blameless, and that all blame should be placed on Bush.

While Bush and Brown get a heaping helping of blame, with onions on top, Blanco and Nagin have to pull up to the table and start eating it with both hands.

I believe that FEMA promises a lot of things beyond what its actual authority, size, and budget indicate. Which is stupid. Unless there's a nuclear attack, it really has very little authority.

Then there should be an in depth look at FEMA, what it's role in a national emergency is and what that role should be. However, if that agency is going to exist and if that agency is going to make promises, then it should expect to be held accountable for those promises, be they kept or no.


Well, if you say that on this forum, people will say you're a Bush butt-kisser.

"Person" will say you're a Bush butt-kisser. And it's OceanDrive, dude.

I mean, c'mon.


It doesn't remove culpability.

What I take objection to is the idea that Blanco and Nagin are somehow blameless, and that all blame should be placed on Bush.

While Bush and Brown get a heaping helping of blame, with onions on top, Blanco and Nagin have to pull up to the table and start eating it with both hands.

Well, then we are in agreement. Which, frankly, frightens the everliving fuck out of me.

Well, then we are in agreement. Which, frankly, frightens the everliving fuck out of me.

Let me enlighten you as to the eradication of individual consciousness that is a natural byproduct of the increase in our population, and then you'll really be frightened that you think like me.

Let me enlighten you as to the eradication of individual consciousness that is a natural byproduct of the increase in our population, and then you'll really be frightened that you think like me.

No thanks, I try to keep my points of agreement with people who advocate genocide down to one or less a day. :p

No thanks, I try to keep my points of agreement with people who advocate genocide down to one or less a day. :p

Don't be confusing my support for certain actions with any moral viewpoint that you may assume goes with it.

I, for one, believe that genocide is completely immoral. However, as a technical solution to a technical problem, it is extremely effective. It worked for the Turks. Mass slaughter worked for the Mongols. That doesn't mean it's right.

But I tend to do things less and less because they are right or wrong, and more because they work. Most people are already this way, and justify it by saying there is moral relativism. I do not justify it. I know it's wrong, but I know it works.

I sense a sig coming up.

Kind of hard to do, don't you think? Not that we shouldn't try.

Brain surgery is hard, too, but it's done every day by people who make the effort to learn how.

Almost anyone can learn to become a brain surgeon, and almost anyone can learn how to do their jobs right -- with a little motivation. I'm in favor of negative motivation in this case. Maybe if officials would actually get fired for major fuck ups, and maybe even be exposed to lawsuits or criminal charges if their fuck ups cost people's lives, then lazy, self-indulgent sons of bitches might be less inclined to run for office.

I haven't seen that many knee-jerk Bush praisers.

You'll notice that I haven't praised Bush for his job, either.

I could name two off the top of my head, but I won't because they'll probably accuse me of flaming them. Knee-jerk Bush-praisers do that, which is kind of odd, don't you think? (Oh, what the hell -- Mesacatala and Lotus Puppy. They're not the only ones, just the ones whose names I happen to remember.)

In any event, I wasn't referring to you.

I could name two off the top of my head, but I won't because they'll probably accuse me of flaming them. Knee-jerk Bush-praisers do that, which is kind of odd, don't you think? (Oh, what the hell -- Mesacatala and Lotus Puppy. They're not the only ones, just the ones whose names I happen to remember.)

In any event, I wasn't referring to you.and just in case I'm on that list.

I give credit where credit is due, same with the blame.

Nonsense. If the federal government creates an entire department to oversee national emergencies, it takes the onus of responsibility on itself, at least in as far as that specific department and it's actions are concerned. Should this agency exist? Debatable. However, since it clearly does, the idea that it potentially might not is irrelevant to the facts at hand. It exists, it had a job to do, it failed to do that job.

This is the one point that can't be either escaped or ignored. It goes back to my position that the fact that A screwed up in no way excuses B for screwing up too. And once again, the federal screw up is more important to non-Louisianans because we might have to deal with them some day, whereas we can avoid dealing with Louisiana officials by simply not moving to Louisiana, so it is completely legitimate for us to complain about the feds separately.

For the last time, Louisiana's screw ups do not negate FEMA's screw ups. FEMA, Homeland Security (I hate that title), and a lot of the rest of the federal government needs an overhaul. And I believe the place to start is with some firings and independent investigations leading eventually to indictments and trials, in order to send a message to the next batch of appointees that this isn't some high-salaried kegger they've lucked into.

and just in case I'm on that list.

I give credit where credit is due, same with the blame.
Which list? Knee-jerkers or the ones I wasn't referring to in the previous post?

Which list? Knee-jerkers or the ones I wasn't referring to in the previous post?any list that indicates one blindly follows a cause. that's all. :D

This is the one point that can't be either escaped or ignored. It goes back to my position that the fact that A screwed up in no way excuses B for screwing up too. And once again, the federal screw up is more important to non-Louisianans because we might have to deal with them some day, whereas we can avoid dealing with Louisiana officials by simply not moving to Louisiana, so it is completely legitimate for us to complain about the feds separately.

For the last time, Louisiana's screw ups do not negate FEMA's screw ups. FEMA, Homeland Security (I hate that title), and a lot of the rest of the federal government needs an overhaul. And I believe the place to start is with some firings and independent investigations leading eventually to indictments and trials, in order to send a message to the next batch of appointees that this isn't some high-salaried kegger they've lucked into.
And Brown admitted that there were screw-ups in FEMA. He didnt deny that FEMA screwed the pooch. He simply stated that the Mayor and Gov were just as culpable - if not more so - which is a true and correct statement. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go read my first post in this thread where I explained it (I dont feel like wasting the time to retype it).

Obviously, he picked the wrong people for police.

So you're going to deny the police became looters?


Yes I WILL deny that "the police became looters" as that statement represents an absolute indictment that paints the entire force. I have never denied that some police became looters, however that is a far stretch from your statements of 80% and this one which includes ALL officers.

And I think you would be hard pressed to find a mayor anywhere who has been tasked with personal oversight of the hiring of the entire police force. Once again, while there ARE thing to blame Nagin for - you seem to be trying to pin a lot more on him than ins in any way reasonable.


He had plenty of money. He knew about th months in advance. And he could have asked Governor Blanco for the money. But he didn't. And they wrote completely unusable plans together to cover their asses.

If he's not going to do anything, then stop taxing me. If he's not going to do anything, he needs to go to work for McDonalds.



This assumption as to his budget is based on your personal perusal of the New Orleans balance sheet? But on point, if BEFORE the hurrican someone said:

"We are ready, we're going to respond... We're going to do whatever it takes to help victims. That's why we've already declared an emergency. President Bush had no reservations about doing that. We're going to lean forward as possible and do everything we can to help those folks in Louisiana or Alabama or Mississippi."

and then afterwards said:

"we did the catastrophic planning a year ago and had no money, since then, to do anything."

Then by your stated position this person should have gone up the chain, beat on doors, and found the damn money somewhere to ensure that plans could be executed?

Because those ARE direct quotes from Michael Brown. The first when interviewed by CNN the day before the hurricane, and the second at the House Panel. And given your propensity to blame the senior elected official for the employees below him as evidenced by your blaming Nagin for the police, then you must then put this part of the blame directly on Mr. Bush else your hypocricy flag starts waving in the wind again.


Why should I pay for someone who can't do the job, won't do the job, tells everyone he won't, can't, and then turns around and blames it on everyone else?


Ummmm, once again, boy does that seem to relate darn well to Brown's direct statements doesn't it? Just as much as it might to Nagin?

It would have been better than him standing there calling the rest of America racists for not helping.


I've already granted you that point. You seem to like asking people to get off of high horses. Do you think in return you could stop beating dead ones?