NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I was just watching a very interesting program interviewing people who have been arrested and detained since 9/11. Most of them had not been allowed to speak to a lawyer. One of them was in prison for more than 52 days before he his lawyer was even told he was arrested, and he was only able to speak with him because he went on a hunger strike until he was allowed to (note, he was not on ahunger strike to be allowed to pray or something, he was on a hunger strike so that he could talk to a lawyer).

Some of these people's families did not know what had happened to their detained loved ones for more than 100 days, they only knewthat one day they had not come home. The government has justified all of this by saying that none of them are US citizens.

Here is my question. What is to stop the government from doing this treatment to American citizens. They don't tell the families, so they don't know what happens. A guard can't tell the difference between a naturalized arab who is now an American and one who is not. What is to stop them?

Now I know some of you are going to say, "Well we should just trust our government." I am not going to respond with something like, "We whouldn't trust these people. they lie all of the time." That isn't a real response, and doesn't convince anyone of anything who didn't already believe it.

Here is my real response:
The founding fathers of the United States said,
"The people should not be afraid of the Government, the Government should be afraid of the people."
What I take that to mean is that the government has to answer to the people. It has to be open to a certain amount of scrutiny, it has to justify its actions. Therefore, I feel that I would be spitting in the faces of the founding fathers to simply "trust my government." I want them to prove to me that there can't be an American citizen treated this way, and quite frankly, the only way I will be convinced is if they restore these basic rights to immigrants, and not just American citizens.

Oh, well, no one is interested in my political commentary. I'll go back to hiding under a rock.

welcome to the wide world of conservatism

or more accurately narrow world!

(+1)

That is scary, but I'm hardly surprised, and I wouldn't be surprised if this did start happening to American citizens. US citizens have been trading their rights for increased "security" for some time.

An interesting note on the side:

During the "Police Action" in Afghanistan, an Australian citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hicks) was captured, allegedly fighting alongside the Taliban.
He had converted to Islam a while ago, and travelled around the Middle East, especially however Pakistan, and gotten in contact with radicals there.
He enlisted in a very fanatic Koran school, and then was shipped into Afghanistan as the war broke out.
He's since been in Camp X-Ray - his lawyer is the very outspoken American one (I like him) with the big ears. I can't remember his name though.

While other countries have, successfully, tried to get their citizens out of there, Australia maintains that everything is in order there, and that they don't give a shit.

So what happens? David Hicks is now trying to become a British citizen! Good on him.

[/meaningless rant]

An interesting note on the side:

During the "Police Action" in Afghanistan, an Australian citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hicks) was captured, allegedly fighting alongside the Taliban.
He had converted to Islam a while ago, and travelled around the Middle East, especially however Pakistan, and gotten in contact with radicals there.
He enlisted in a very fanatic Koran school, and then was shipped into Afghanistan as the war broke out.
He's since been in Camp X-Ray - his lawyer is the very outspoken American one (I like him) with the big ears. I can't remember his name though.

While other countries have, successfully, tried to get their citizens out of there, Australia maintains that everything is in order there, and that they don't give a shit.

So what happens? David Hicks is now trying to become a British citizen! Good on him.

[/meaningless rant]
At least he was caught in Afghanistan. I fully agree he should still have representation, but the cases I am trying to point out are the ones arrested in the United States who have nothing more than being a muslim immigrant.

I had a lab partner in college who was a muslim from Lebanon. I am Jewish. He and I got along really well. He covered for me in lab when I had to leave for Yom Kippur. I covered for him so he could go hime early to break the fast during Ramadan. We answered each other's questions about religion. He had a Jewish girlfriend who he wanted to impress with his knowledge of Judaism, so he would ask me stuff. We were always afraid he would just get taken away, and we wouldn't hear why. It didn't end up happening, but there are countless cases of other entirely innocent people in the US who were, or are being arrested. Most of them end up being deported after having done nothing illegal, and sent back to countries with terrible conditions, who often arrest them when they get there.

I am also trying to get at what is stopping them from doing this to American citizens living here (not just the ones they find in Afghanistan).

An interesting note on the side:

During the "Police Action" in Afghanistan, an Australian citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hicks) was captured, allegedly fighting alongside the Taliban.
He had converted to Islam a while ago, and travelled around the Middle East, especially however Pakistan, and gotten in contact with radicals there.
He enlisted in a very fanatic Koran school, and then was shipped into Afghanistan as the war broke out.
He's since been in Camp X-Ray - his lawyer is the very outspoken American one (I like him) with the big ears. I can't remember his name though.

While other countries have, successfully, tried to get their citizens out of there, Australia maintains that everything is in order there, and that they don't give a shit.

So what happens? David Hicks is now trying to become a British citizen! Good on him.

[/meaningless rant]
Sooooo, the Australian government also sucks big, hairy, gangrenous monkey balls?

We no longer have rights as Americans. The president has the power to detain any US citizen as an "enemy combatant" as part of the necessary force authorized by Congress in the Patriot Act. 300 million peoples' rights as American citizens have been forfeited without even being aware of it.

And as far as detaining American citizens indefinitely without trial or legal counsel, it's already happened. Padilla is still sitting in a military brig in South Carolina, and thousands of American citizens have been detained and denied access to their attorney for weeks before release.

This is no longer the Land of the Free. :(

Sooooo, the Australian government also sucks big, hairy, gangrenous monkey balls?

Yes. Yes, it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard - Our PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Costello - Our Economics Minister
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Downer - Our (don't laugh) Foreign Minister
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Vanstone - Our ( :eek: ) Minister for (get this) Immigration*, Indigenous** and Multicultural Affairs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Ruddock - Our "Killing All Terrorists and People of Other Origins" (KATPOO) Minister
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Abbott - Our Minister for making Abortion a problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Nelson - Our Minister for making those pesky students pay for their views

* Australia has been condemned repeatedly for locking asylum seekers (and their children) in "Detention Centres" (read: Concentration Camps) for years on end, without having their cases answered.

** Australian Aboriginals die, on average, 20 years younger than others. The Infant Mortality Rate is 2.5 times higher for them. The Federal Government's response was to outlaw the body overseeing Aboriginal relations with the Government, instead now "talking to each community individually".