NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm curious as to which of the two is more socially acceptable nowadays.

I was at a career night for physics students last year and I was talking to one of my friends about how I didnt' know what I wanted to do with my life and one of my other classmates came by and suggested that I get married and become a housewife. If I'd told him that he should go become a taxi driver (this guy is brown) then I'm sure there would have been a huge thing over it, but it's perfectly alright for him to say that I should take my hard earned degree and essentially waste it doing something that requires no education whatsoever.

Argh!

I wanted a poll!

I'm curious as to which of the two is more socially acceptable nowadays.

I was at a career night for physics students last year and I was talking to one of my friends about how I didnt' know what I wanted to do with my life and one of my other classmates came by and suggested that I get married and become a housewife. If I'd told him that he should go become a taxi driver (this guy is brown) then I'm sure there would have been a huge thing over it, but it's perfectly alright for him to say that I should take my hard earned degree and essentially waste it doing something that requires no education whatsoever. Oh no… I am experiencing NS heterogender confusion… (I thought you were male).

In England, EVERYONE makes fun of the Welsh. Really, everyone. It's still acceptable to make fun (not as much) of Irish people, as well… although I don't mind.
Mostly, if I make sexist jokes or jokey comments, people know that I'm not being serious. That seems to indicate that it's not as acceptable, and people assume you're not being sexist. But I don't know. :p

Sexism.

It occurs more often anyway...

In England, EVERYONE makes fun of the Welsh. Really, everyone. It's still acceptable to make fun (not as much) of Irish people, as well… although I don't mind.
Mostly, if I make sexist jokes or jokey comments, people know that I'm not being serious. That seems to indicate that it's not as acceptable, and people assume you're not being sexist. But I don't know. :p
That's not really racism though... it's like how people make Newfie jokes here. They just live in another part of the country.

And if it's ok to make sexist jokes and everyone assumes you're joking, then that would be socially acceptable, if you ask me.

Wow that's a tough one. As a white male I am patently aware of how publically acceptable it is to make hatefull comments and insulting jokes about me. But is it because I am pale (ish I work outdoors a lot) or because of my penis? Hard call. I'd say probably racism is more acceptable than sexism. Because I've noticed that derogatory comments about males are generally not directed at males of politically correct ethnicity. While it is perfectly OK to make fun of or denegrade the whiteness of caucasian females....

While I personally don't consider either to be acceptable, the fact is that overt sexism is generally more acceptable than overt racism. Neither is as acceptable, or as common, as they once were, though.

neither are acceptable in todays world but however the are natural human reactions and are therfore never going to vanish completly

Well, I guess the good news is that nobody has said that neither exist so far.

Sexism.

Our head of year will make sexist jokes as jokes (i.e. he holds no actual sexist beliefs as far as I know) and people will laugh and some will be slightly offended but not seriously and it's all perfectly fine. If he made racist jokes he'd probably get fired.

A fair amount of guys I know will make the occasional sexist joke and everyone will see it as fine. Anyone who simply mentions race will get called racist. (In one sense that's good but it gets annoying when you can't state statistics in Sociology without being called racist).

I think it's because racism seems to go to further extremes. I have no idea of any facts or figures but I'd guess that sexism usually results in more subtle or more "minor" discrimination whereas you hear alot about racism that leads to violence or even murder. So racism is taken more seriously.

Edit: I'm not saying that sexism is necessarily any less serious; I'm just saying that's how it appears.

Neither is acceptable, obviously, but if you mean which do people engage in more freely, I'd say sexism. Maybe because a lot of people think girls won't fight back. I'm a woman. I handle it thus:

When guys make sexist jokes about women around me, I answer with sexist jokes about men and laugh it off.

When I meet up with sexism on the job, I confront it right away. A simple, direct, immediate "What the hell is that supposed to mean?" usually nips it in the bud. (You have to say it just like Joe Pesci in "Goodfellas" in the "Am I a clown? Do I amuse you?" scene. That makes them real nervous. :D ) (I remember one boss I had -- an old fashioned guy -- I drafted a letter for him and did it faster than he expected, and he started to say, "Good g---" and stopped and looked at me kind of wide-eyed, and I grinned at him, and said, "You were about to say 'good girl,' weren't you?", and he goes, "But I stopped myself," and I was like, "Not fast enough," and I grinned again, but he was very obedient for the rest of the week. That was a fun little one. Heh, heh.)

The kind of sexism that involves guys copping a grab in crowds, etc., is best answered with a loud, direct, preferably mocking announcement of it in front of everybody. Something along the lines of, "Did I give you permission to touch my ass? Well, did I, jerk?"

I follow these simple rules, and I find I'm almost never the victim of sexism, at least not by the same guy twice. ;)

The kind of sexism that involves guys copping a grab in crowds, etc., is best answered with a loud, direct, preferably mocking announcement of it in front of everybody. Something along the lines of, "Did I give you permission to touch my ass? Well, did I, jerk?"
That happened at this one club I went to with my roommates once. The thing was guys would only do it when you were travelling from one place to another and they were moving in the opposite direction so even if you did turn around to bitch them out, they would be way the hell down there and you're still being pushed forwards.

Stupid pricks. It's a big part of why I don't go to clubs. Aside from the fact that they are incredibly lame.

Wow that's a tough one. As a white male I am patently aware of how publically acceptable it is to make hatefull comments and insulting jokes about me. But is it because I am pale (ish I work outdoors a lot) or because of my penis? Hard call. I'd say probably racism is more acceptable than sexism. Because I've noticed that derogatory comments about males are generally not directed at males of politically correct ethnicity. While it is perfectly OK to make fun of or denegrade the whiteness of caucasian females....

hear hear brother,

Bring back the racism! We whities are copping plenty and the governments are drafting legislature which DISCRIMINATE against us! Wait a minute...... that's RACISM! Oh my! Oh no, its ok, its not Racism if its Pro Black and Anti-white...... F**K the world... we're breeding another HITLER!

Sexism?...... I don't see it much except if there is a female boss who hates males! But that also is ok because you may hate and discriminate against males as much as you like, i think they term it REVENGE or something. Who gave them the power to discriminate like that..... the males....... take the power back? (quoting rage for the side of the male....... the white male? oh no! im going to kill a memeber so he can turn in his grave)

Oooooh i rant.......... someone else ranted....... time to take my ranting public! Where is my wah pedal?

I hate everyone anyway, you're all idiots!
xoxoxo lots of love
lol

Are we seriously debating which group gets to play the bigger victim card? I fucking hate identity politics.

What gets me about all the -"ism"s is that where people will not support being treated different from everyone else, they will support being treated better than everyone else. The same people that will say sexism is wrong will have no problems with "chivalry". The same people that will say racism is wrong will have no problems with "black pride".

If pointing out differences is wrong, then it should be wrong for whatever reason one does it.

What gets me about all the -"ism"s is that where people will not support being treated different from everyone else, they will support being treated better than everyone else. The same people that will say sexism is wrong will have no problems with "chivalry". The same people that will say racism is wrong will have no problems with "black pride".

If pointing out differences is wrong, then it should be wrong for whatever reason one does it.

So true.

This is why I hate identity politics.

Are we seriously debating which group gets to play the bigger victim card? I fucking hate identity politics.
I'm asking which is more socially acceptable.

This isn't anything to do with "playing the victim card".

What gets me about all the -"ism"s is that where people will not support being treated different from everyone else, they will support being treated better than everyone else. The same people that will say sexism is wrong will have no problems with "chivalry". The same people that will say racism is wrong will have no problems with "black pride".

If pointing out differences is wrong, then it should be wrong for whatever reason one does it.
It's not quite the same thing. Racism and sexism are not about pointing out differences. They are about excluding certain groups of people from full participation in society. They range from the extremes of physical violence and opressive laws, through job/political/economic discrimination, down to simple harassment (which is not the same as innocent joking or open discussion).

As for your specific points:

If "black pride" is a matter of trying to publicly reclaim the value of an ethnic identity that a racist society has devalued, then "black is beautiful", baby. If, on the other hand, "black pride" involves blaming "whitey" for absolutely every single thing wrong in one's life and that's why it's not even worth trying, because "the man" will always keep one down, then one is just looking for excuses to be a loser.

As for "chivalry," whether a guy holds a door for a woman out of good manners (in which case, he would hold doors for men, too) or because he wants to get into a woman's pants, I hardly think a woman being willing to accept such consideration from a guy invalidates arguments against sexual harassment, unequal pay, etc.

...If "black pride" is a matter of trying to publicly reclaim the value of an ethnic identity that a racist society has devalued, then "black is beautiful", baby. If, on the other hand, "black pride" involves blaming "whitey" for absolutely every single thing wrong in one's life and that's why it's not even worth trying, because "the man" will always keep one down, then one is just looking for excuses to be a loser.

As for "chivalry," whether a guy holds a door for a woman out of good manners (in which case, he would hold doors for men, too) or because he wants to get into a woman's pants, I hardly think a woman being willing to accept such consideration from a guy invalidates arguments against sexual harassment, unequal pay, etc.

That's the whole point. A person's race is valueless. Being a member of any race doesn't make one a better or worse person. To say that one deserves more respect because of their race is no better than the people that are saying others deserve less respect because of their race.

In the example of chivalry, I would say that neither of those two situations would be considered chivalrous. The first is good manners and applies to both sexes equally, the second is more of a misguided quid pro quo.

This is not to say that one cannot discriminate against anyone. I would say that personal appearance is a valid reason for discriminating against people. To a reasonable extent, people make decisions about the types of clothes they wear and should accept accountability for the reactions such choices make. If someone chooses to wear revealing clothing because of the belief "I'm attractive", then there should be no astonishment when they attract unwanted attention.

The same thing goes for people that dress in a manner that society identifies as most suited to thugs and hooligans. The message to everyone else is "I'm dangerous", so it should be no suprize when they are approached by law enforcement even if they aren't currently doing anything wrong.

I drafted a letter for him and did it faster than he expected, and he started to say, "Good g---" and stopped and looked at me kind of wide-eyed, and I grinned at him, and said, "You were about to say 'good girl,' weren't you?", and he goes, "But I stopped myself," and I was like, "Not fast enough," and I grinned again, but he was very obedient for the rest of the week. That was a fun little one. Heh, heh.)

What's wrong with someone saying "good girl"? I don't get it... :confused:

sexism is considered more acceptable simply because sexism has never resulted in full-scale genocide.

sexism is considered more acceptable simply because sexism has never resulted in full-scale genocide.
Just horrible oppression...

Not to mention shit like the witch trials, where how many women were burned at the stake/decapitated/drowned/mutilated/tortured/et c.

What's wrong with someone saying "good girl"? I don't get it... :confused:

Knee-jerk rabid feminism is my guess.

Or perhaps just plain uber scary ladiness. That could also be an explanation...

[W]itch trials, where many women were burned at the stake/decapitated/drowned/mutilated/tortured/etc.
But men were killed/tortured/etc. as witches as well. Granted, not as many as women, but still...