NationStates Jolt Archive

Think about it. Do you think he is the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE GOD OF VENGANCE THAT WILL SMITE ALL THE HEATHENS!!!!

Or, could he just be like your favorite uncle that is more than happy to sit you on his lap and chat with you. Not down to you but at your level.

I think the biggest problem we have with religion is that we make GOD this force of Power and Magesty that makes him untouchable. I mean he can't be all that bad.

Now, I also believe that he doesn't meddle in our affairs. I think he is there but just watching us. Helping us in his own quiet way. More like a counsilor than a Force.

And I think that he is much more understanding that we give him credit for. Hell, the bible makes him sound like a Jerk. And if he is a Jerk I want nothing to do with him. I would us all rather just accept one another and just get off hating each other for stupid stuff.

But thats just me. A guy that just wants to have a good time on this planet I like to call home.

(Sorry for the spelling errors.)

ive actually gone over a question like this many times. If the christian god is supposed to be benevolent, then why the hell does he painfully punish people instead of try to reform them?

ive actually gone over a question like this many times. If the christian god is supposed to be benevolent, then why the hell does he painfully punish people instead of try to reform them?

To be honest I don't think he has done anything to punish. Hell, Crime is still rampate and Evil is still around. WE do enough to ourselves that he dosen't need to get involved.

Think about it. Do you think he is the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE GOD OF VENGANCE THAT WILL SMITE ALL THE HEATHENS!!!!

Or, could he just be like your favorite uncle that is more than happy to sit you on his lap and chat with you. Not down to you but at your level.why can't he be both?

I think the biggest problem we have with religion is that we make GOD this force of Power and Magesty that makes him untouchable. I mean he can't be all that bad.he is, a force of Power and Majesty. and is also isn't all that bad.

Now, I also believe that he doesn't meddle in our affairs. I think he is there but just watching us. Helping us in his own quiet way. More like a counsilor than a Force.yep. tho he does 'influence' things from time to time. and does it in a way that leaves you wondering...

And I think that he is much more understanding that we give him credit for. Hell, the bible makes him sound like a Jerk. And if he is a Jerk I want nothing to do with him. I would us all rather just accept one another and just get off hating each other for stupid stuff.the Bible does not make him sound like a jerk. it's the interpretations that everyone has that makes him sound like a jerk. People who only want to see the "ebil bastard of a God" will only see the harsh and displinary things that He did and does do. just like those who want to only see the kindness and loving God will see only that. in truth, he is both. Kind and Vengeful, Generous and Stern. He sets the laws and the rules to live by, he set the condition by which one can obtain salvation, he also set the conditions to keep that salvation. To those that strive for that goal, he is a counsilor and Guide. a kind and belevolent God. to those that refuse to follow such conditions, he is a bastard jerk.

we can accept one another and love one another. after all, the real Judge is Him... and no one else.

But thats just me. A guy that just wants to have a good time on this planet I like to call home.you can have a good time and still follow Him.

(Sorry for the spelling errors.) apologies for mine also. :D

I've got a real love-hate relationship with God. That is, I love Him and He hates me.

well let me put it this way

if he werent god, i wouldnt hang out at his house every sunday.

Think about it. Do you think he is the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE GOD OF VENGANCE THAT WILL SMITE ALL THE HEATHENS!!!!

Or, could he just be like your favorite uncle that is more than happy to sit you on his lap and chat with you. Not down to you but at your level.

More like a pretty firm and strict dad who treats us like infants. Saying "do not do this" and "do not do that" without explaining why, and punishing us when we did wrong. Definately not as equals; which of course we are not.

Problem is we are entering adolescence now. Or at least we think we do.

And I think that he is much more understanding that we give him credit for. Hell, the bible makes him sound like a Jerk. And if he is a Jerk I want nothing to do with him. I would us all rather just accept one another and just get off hating each other for stupid stuff.

You may or may not believe in Christianity but do you think the fact that God sent His Only Son down to Earth to be persecuted, ridiculed, brutally beaten and then crucified on the cross for our sins, makes God not a loving God? I would seriously think about what you are saying. Jesus is the ultimate example of how humans should live their lives. And we killed him. It is humanity that is sinful. We are the jerks.

More like a pretty firm and strict dad who treats us like infants. Saying "do not do this" and "do not do that" without explaining why, and punishing us when we did wrong. Definately not as equals; which of course we are not.

Problem is we are entering adolescence now. Or at least we think we do. Heh, got it right. Except he's a proper father - is willing to be strict if necessary - exterminating the race of demon-human hybrids with a flood/the Israelite tribe being notable examples - but is willing to forgive those who come back into his arms. Jesus told a parable to that effect, I believe. Maybe Jesus was sent down at that particular time because we were about ten years old.

You may or may not believe in Christianity but do you think the fact that God sent His Only Son down to Earth to be persecuted, ridiculed, brutally beaten and then crucified on the cross for our sins, makes God not a loving God? .
as long as youre not his son!


considering that he had infinite choices in how to resolve the whole situation, no i dont find it all that loving that someone had to be persecuted, ridiculed, brutally beaten then crucified to get it done.

Well here's my take on it.

God, or any divinity, is by definition so far beyond what we as mortals can experience with our senses as to be, as a whole, unknowable. Therefore, the best we can hope for in this life is to know a part of the whole, or, our own personification of God.

I'll offer this metaphor because I really like it, even though I've offered it before, and it took me some work to come up with. Think of the whole of God as a river. To a man coming across the river after a long walk through a desert, the whole of the meaning of that river is summed up in what he can hold in his hands and drink. Farther down the river, a woman is using the water to wash her clothes, and for her, the whole of the river is embodied by it's ability to clean her linen. Still farther down the river, a child is swimming and his whole understanding of the river is the pleasure and exercise it gives him. To each of these people, the river is important in a personally defined way, and the river itself is all of these things. Yet none of these things constitute the true "whole" of the river.

So God is the river and we dip our hands in to take out what we need. What we take out is a valid personification, but not the whole of the divinity. Thus, in a way of thinking, mankind does indeed create its own gods. Of course, it might be more apt to say we create the client and God is the server.

The point is, though, that people will take what they need from the whole divinity. If they need a stern father figure, full of damnation and brimstone, then that's what they'll take and it will be just as "correct" as someone who takes from the divinity the concept of a neutral force pervading all exsitance and linking all life in a mesh of cosmic consciousness.

as long as youre not his son!


considering that he had infinite choices in how to resolve the whole situation, no i dont find it all that loving that someone had to be persecuted, ridiculed, brutally beaten then crucified to get it done. What's the other option? Take away our free will? Force us to be good? A forced choice is no choice at all.

I've got a real love-hate relationship with God. That is, I love Him and He hates me.
I don't hate you... :confused:

as long as youre not his son!


considering that he had infinite choices in how to resolve the whole situation, no i dont find it all that loving that someone had to be persecuted, ridiculed, brutally beaten then crucified to get it done.

Well, that's a good question. If one is going to assume that Jesus is the avatar of the Judeo-Christian God on this planet, it is possible that he represents an attempt to understand what He had actually created.

I agree that there seems like there should be a better way, but perhaps this was the only way for God to truly learn what it was like to be human and what humans were capable of.

Imagine if your parents had never punished you. You would never learn that certain things are wrong, would you?

God is the ultimate example of a father. He loves us and cares for us, and provides for us... but also disciplines us when we step outside the boundries. So for those of you that say God is punishing you for no reason... think about what you have actually done.

As for God sending Jesus to the earth to die for our sins... well I don't know why he did it. But I'm not going to complain about it.

God's not a jerk!

Imagine if your parents had never punished you. You would never learn that certain things are wrong, would you?

God is the ultimate example of a father. He loves us and cares for us, and provides for us... but also disciplines us when we step outside the boundries. So for those of you that say God is punishing you for no reason... think about what you have actually done.

Well, there is also the theory of experiential learning, but I see your point.

What's the other option? Take away our free will? Force us to be good? A forced choice is no choice at all.
why would it be a choice between "no free will" or "horrible death of his son"?

he is GOD, he could have done it in more ways than you or i could ever think of.

he could have, for example, tossed adam and eve out of paradise but not saddle them with the curse of passing on their sin to all their decendant. that way everyone from then on would face the same even playing field for getting into heaven.

Imagine if your parents had never punished you. You would never learn that certain things are wrong, would you?

Yes but I wouldn't sentence my children to burn for stealing out of the cookie jar.

God is the ultimate example of a father. He loves us and cares for us, and provides for us... but also disciplines us when we step outside the boundries. So for those of you that say God is punishing you for no reason... think about what you have actually done.

Maybe, but it's a question of does the punishment fit the crime. Most countries have outlawed torture as barbaric, I just can't see why our Loving God would allow it.

As for God sending Jesus to the earth to die for our sins... well I don't know why he did it. But I'm not going to complain about it.

You have hit on my main disagreement with Trinitarian Christianity. The idea that the just can be punished for the unjust. Think about it, if someone commited a crime and was sentenced to death, would we allow someone else to step into that sentence and take it for the guilty? No, of course not. That is not justice, it is revenge; demanding a life for a life and not caring whose it is.

In the words of Arthur Koesler (he was quoting a Jesuit): "Hell does exist, but it is always empty".
Soothing enough?

If you say he is something like the angry tyrant....that means you first acknowledge its existance.... Where does chistianity come from? it comes from the hebrews in the middle east.... and before the hebrews there were multi-god religions.... its just another thing that is JUST still around.... believing in a god just gives people the rationalization that they can do wrong, pray to this entity, and go on living without guilt.....

What's the other option? Take away our free will? Force us to be good? A forced choice is no choice at all.

To poke a hole in the old Omnipotent idea, the only thing that says we can not have freewill and always choose to be good is logic. An omnipotent God would be able to change logic to whatever He desired. If God can not, that means Logic is something that exists independantly from God that controls and confines God.

wow. it is interesting how onesided the conversation gets when you start a "God is a jerk" thred on a Sunday.... :rolleyes:

I think you know my answer




NO

God is like an American Citizen. He's probably a nice enough guy once you get to know him, but shit has been done in his name and there's not a damned thing he can do about it against the swarm of examples that lead to the prejudice against him.

I don't hate you... :confused:
I'm touched, but since when did you speak for the Almighty? ;)

This topic has been addressed probably more than any other in the history of the world, and it sure can't be sufficiently summed up in some thread. yet i'll just address some points anyway.

(All of God can't be known)- Logically, its a good point. Thats why he gave us the Bible.

(a just God wouldn't punish)- Is he punishing us or letting us go where we want? If we spend our whole lives rejecting Him then for Him to force us into His presence (heaven) would make Him a jerk. So, He lets us run away from Him and we end up in the one place where God is not, Hell.

(logic is/disproves God)- He has given us rules, and He plays by them too.

you can try to rationalize your way out of recognizing God so that you don't feel "accountable" to anyone, but if you truly follow your logic to its end (not just to the point that makes you happy) then it will always point to Him.

Read the Bible. Doubt it, challenge it, but give it an HONEST chance it will meet your challenge in every way. It may take time, and it may not be what you want to hear, but finding truth never is easy.

Think about it. Do you think he is the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE GOD OF VENGANCE THAT WILL SMITE ALL THE HEATHENS!!!!

Or, could he just be like your favorite uncle that is more than happy to sit you on his lap and chat with you. Not down to you but at your level.

I think the biggest problem we have with religion is that we make GOD this force of Power and Magesty that makes him untouchable. I mean he can't be all that bad.

Now, I also believe that he doesn't meddle in our affairs. I think he is there but just watching us. Helping us in his own quiet way. More like a counsilor than a Force.

And I think that he is much more understanding that we give him credit for. Hell, the bible makes him sound like a Jerk. And if he is a Jerk I want nothing to do with him. I would us all rather just accept one another and just get off hating each other for stupid stuff.

But thats just me. A guy that just wants to have a good time on this planet I like to call home.

(Sorry for the spelling errors.)
God is no jerk he give what he wants and takes away what he wants, He is God who doesn't make mistakes. He is mysterious though, things happen for a reason, so of which we don't know, read the bible again, or tlak to Arapahoe Cove about the Bible.

You have hit on my main disagreement with Trinitarian Christianity. The idea that the just can be punished for the unjust. Think about it, if someone commited a crime and was sentenced to death, would we allow someone else to step into that sentence and take it for the guilty? No, of course not. That is not justice, it is revenge; demanding a life for a life and not caring whose it is.

That's the point. Look at it this way. You're in court, about to be sentenced to death for your crimes. Suddenly, a man walks in, shoves you aside and takes your place. The judge points at him and says "I sentence you to death". As the man leaves teh court, you ask him why he did this for you. He replies "because I love you". You then hear that the man was the judges only son. You ask the judge why he allowed it and he replies "because I love you". It's an interesting metaphor. Basically, Christ is God. So by God being on earth, as a part of his creation and being killed horribly and unjustly he was able to break the chains that were keeping his creation, who he loves, from reaching him. Assuming they accept his offer.

No God isn't a Jerk ... He's God ... He can do what he wishes. I can't believe you even said that. I wouldn't go out in a lightning storm if I were you.

ive actually gone over a question like this many times. If the christian god is supposed to be benevolent, then why the hell does he painfully punish people instead of try to reform them?


He gives up ample ammount of time to be reformed...until whenever it is we die..Also any type of punishment is like what a father would do if his son broke something...You punish them to make them learn...Now obviously if you goto its a bit too late to learn from those mistakes...But i guess looking in a twisted way it is like an example to others :cool:

he is GOD, he could have done it in more ways than you or i could ever think of.

I think you are missing the point. Yes, Jesus could have saved himself. But, like others have suggested, that would be violating our free will. Why? If, at the point of the crucifixion, Jesus suddenly disappears to safety, He this therefore saying: you humans, no matter how bad your acts are, cannot commit evil. Therefore, it is a restriction to our free will. Furthermore, Jesus lived as an example for humans, even if that meant dying for us. What you suggest is something the Devil suggested himself (I'm not insinuating that you are by any means evil, I'm just drawing a parallel :) ), when he asked Jesus to fall off the building to "test" whether God would save him from his fate. This passage not only teaches an important lesson concerning whether or not to question God, but in a sense it forshadows His crucifixion, and choice to preserve our free will.


To poke a hole in the old Omnipotent idea, the only thing that says we can not have freewill and always choose to be good is logic. An omnipotent God would be able to change logic to whatever He desired. If God can not, that means Logic is something that exists independantly from God that controls and confines God.

This itself is a logical fallacy. Logic is a construct that, while it can be used to describe the supernatural, is innately human. To say God follows man-made rules would be to say that God lives within the laws and rules that humans live under. God lives outside of these rules (such as time). Freewill is a divine gift that allows us to live by our rules of logic, or to not live by logic for that matter. In fact, many people are not logical, and we call them "logical"--something that's defined by human standards. The truth is, logic is also subjective given any one person. I may think it logical to believe in a God (citing Aquinas' "logical proofs for God's existence" as an example), but someone else would think that is ludicrous, perhaps saying that since we cannot prove God exists, belief in God is illogical. The point is, if logic is subjective, as I maintain, and is something humans define, God is therefore, not bound by it.

Imagine if your parents had never punished you. You would never learn that certain things are wrong, would you?

God is the ultimate example of a father. He loves us and cares for us, and provides for us... but also disciplines us when we step outside the boundries. So for those of you that say God is punishing you for no reason... think about what you have actually done.
The problem here is that what many people say God will do is not what a loving parent would do.
A loving parent punishes to teach what is wrong. This, to be effective, is accompanied by explanation. It is nothing permanent or torturous, it is merely intended to reinforce.

But many people say that sinners go to Hell for eternity. In this Hell, they are tortured. A subset of this group also says that God punishes us because He loves us.
But in this situation, punishment is not being used to teach what is wrong. No explanation is given, punishment is simply meted out. On top of that, it is permanent torture as punishment. This, to me, would seem like punishment for punishment's sake.
It would seem to me sort of like pouring kerosene over a child and lighting them afire because they stole candy from the corner store.
No God isn't a Jerk ... He's God ... He can do what he wishes.
But what is it about God that gives Him the right to do as he pleases?
Generally, when I ask this question, the answer is "Because He created everything."
But I don't think that justifies it.

If I had a child, it would not be morally right for me to do as I please with them, would it? Especially not if the "as I please" involved torture.
If I somehow programmed an artificial intelligence just like a human, with consciousness, free will, and all that, would it be right for me to do as I please with it?

I don't see how morality is related to who created what. The claim that it is seems to me like a "whoever is powerful is right" claim.

I think you are missing the point. Yes, Jesus could have saved himself. But, like others have suggested, that would be violating our free will. Why? If, at the point of the crucifixion, Jesus suddenly disappears to safety, He this therefore saying: you humans, no matter how bad your acts are, cannot commit evil. Therefore, it is a restriction to our free will. Furthermore, Jesus lived as an example for humans, even if that meant dying for us. What you suggest is something the Devil suggested himself (I'm not insinuating that you are by any means evil, I'm just drawing a parallel :) ), when he asked Jesus to fall off the building to "test" whether God would save him from his fate. This passage not only teaches an important lesson concerning whether or not to question God, but in a sense it forshadows His crucifixion, and choice to preserve our free will.

and if that had been my point, you would have refuted it nicely. after all no one is going to accept another "psyche!" moment from god ala abraham and isaac as the redemption of humanity. it just wouldnt wash

my point is that god didnt have to set it up this way at all. he didnt have to decide to damn every human for the sins of the first 2. (think of poor abel, the first person to die, languishing in hell or limbo for 5000 years just because his mum ate an apple) he could have just tossed us all out of eden and let the rest of us sink or swim on our own merits.

he also set the terms of redemption. it didnt have to be the death of jesus. that was the price GOD set. fine, jesus paid it and we all have a shot at heaven now but that does not redeem god as a jerk.

i am also suggesting that he could have dealt with the sins of adam and eve in more ways than you or i could think up. i just gave one example. that he chose the punishment of original sin and the cure as the willing death of jesus doesnt mean he had no choice in the matter.

The point is, if logic is subjective, as I maintain, and is something humans define, God is therefore, not bound by it.

Then there is nothing saying that humans cannot have freewill and be created to always choose right.

<Big Ole Snip>
The claim that it is seems to me like a "whoever is powerful is right" claim.
That was the justification I always came up with. Really, what are you going to do? Spank God? Yell at Him? Leave the Universe? Go on strike?
Don't think so.

my point is that god didnt have to set it up this way at all. he didnt have to decide to damn every human for the sins of the first 2. (think of poor abel, the first person to die, languishing in hell or limbo for 5000 years just because his mum ate an apple) he could have just tossed us all out of eden and let the rest of us sink or swim on our own merits.

Very true. In fact, considering how Adam and Eve betrayed God, most humans would think it just for God to do just what you suggested. However, that reaction is a very human one. However, the fact of the matter is that Adam and Eve rejected utopia (Eden) and disobeyed God, but instead of damning humanity/sending us on our way, He did not. He remained with Adam and Eve out of His love for them, and with the future Israelites. If you look at the Israeilites as a people, they screw up ALL the time, yet, out of His love, God keeps forgiving them. What is hard for us to understand is that infinite, patient love that God has.

Another thing. God did not damn humanity persay. He simply gives us the choice (the choice that Adam and Eve chose) to disobey him, and therefore suffer the consequences.

he also set the terms of redemption. it didnt have to be the death of jesus. that was the price GOD set. fine, jesus paid it and we all have a shot at heaven now but that does not redeem god as a jerk.

God did not set the price. Because of humanity's sinfulness, we essentially set the price. God wants desperately to reach us, despite our sinfulness, yet at the same time he's going to preserve our free will. So the solution is to send His Son, God incarnate, to Earth in order to show us the path of righteousness. We elicited the response that God gave, not the other way around. Again, we are the jerks.

am also suggesting that he could have dealt with the sins of adam and eve in more ways than you or i could think up. i just gave one example. that he chose the punishment of original sin and the cure as the willing death of jesus doesnt mean he had no choice in the matter.

Possibly. The point is, if one acknowledges the omniscience of God, that His choice was the best one. If you ask me, letting His Son die on the cross for our salvation was pretty much the most extreme and profound expression of His love.

Then there is nothing saying that humans cannot have freewill and be created to always choose right.

If humans were created to always choose right, we would not be able to choose wrong. Therefore, there would be no choice, and no free will.

If humans were created to always choose right, we would not be able to choose wrong. Therefore, there would be no choice, and no free will.
Bullshit I can not choose to fly unassisted ... does that mean that I have no free will?

Freedom of choice is something that is BUILT IN us not the number of options we have

Bullshit I can not choose to fly unassisted ... does that mean that I have no free will?

No, you do have free will. I fail to see your point with that example.

Freedom of choice is something that is BUILT IN us not the number of options we have

Agreed. I don't see your contention with my point.

No, you do have free will. I fail to see your point with that example.



Agreed. I don't see your contention with my point.
Sorry I must have misread

How does your view conecide with the idea that we would not have free choice if god forgave us for our sins and therefore NO one went to hell?

ive actually gone over a question like this many times. If the christian god is supposed to be benevolent, then why the hell does he painfully punish people instead of try to reform them?

How about for the same reason parents punish kids?

God made humans.

'Nuff said.

How about for the same reason parents punish kids?
The difference being a parent punishes to teach

When god punishes it is already too late it does not matter if you learn from it ... his punishment comes after you are beyond all hope

Its like a parent punishing thier kid by killing them ... they aint learning much from that punishment

The difference being a parent punishes to teach

When god punishes it is already too late it does not matter if you learn from it ... his punishment comes after you are beyond all hope

Its like a parent punishing thier kid by killing them ... they aint learning much from that punishment

exaclty. good answer UT...

exaclty. good answer UT...
Thanks lol trying to be clear when drunk is hard lol

If humans were created to always choose right, we would not be able to choose wrong. Therefore, there would be no choice, and no free will.

But you are using logic again, which God does not have to use.

as long as youre not his son!


considering that he had infinite choices in how to resolve the whole situation, no i dont find it all that loving that someone had to be persecuted, ridiculed, brutally beaten then crucified to get it done.

i don't think you can blame god for the fact that you don't understand god.

When god punishes it is already too late it does not matter if you learn from it ... his punishment comes after you are beyond all hope

who says god punishes people?

No he just has a wicked sense of humour!

who says god punishes people?

the bible?

the bible?
where?

But you are using logic again, which God does not have to use.

oops, said god, hadn´t thought of that and vanishes in a puff of logic...recognized the quote

where?

go to www.biblegateway.com

do a search for "punishment."

Matthew: 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Is God a Jerk?

If he existed, yes.

What I wan to know is why no christian can take an honest look at the religion they follow, with an objectionable mindset.

In otherwords, why cant they take a look through the eyes of a nuetral viewpoint, when assessing what they believe, or want to believe?

Example:

If you belive in God, you must accept God's omnipotency.
God can do anything, he created all, and influences all.
You cannot pick and choose what to accept, you must believe this.
Therfore, you must also realize, that if the above is true, and acccepted, that God is also the type of bastard that would kill thousands in a Tsunami in Thailand.
Or thousands in Lousiana.
Or millions in Poland, Hungary, Rwanada, Iraq, Korea, China, Russia....etc.

Now keep in mind were going on the basic principles that God is both omnipotent, and omniscient.

The line of thinking goes thusly:

If God is all knowing and all powerful, then why would he allow so many innocent people to die?

Standard answer: "God is smarter than us, and we dont understand his reasons, although he has them, and he loves us."

So logically deduced, from the above statements, can not the only answer be:

God kills innocent people all the time, and doesnt feel the need to explain why. He also doesnt feel the need to apologize in person.
Or make public appearances at all for that matter.
He is quoted as loving us very much, but allows some pretty awful shi, happen to good honest people on a regular basis.

My question is, is this the kind of guy you should follow?
What kind of "Heaven" is he offering, anyway?

go to www.biblegateway.com

do a search for "punishment."

Matthew: 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
To be fair there is an argument over if the original language of the bible supports eternal punishment at all

Just another good example why the bible (specially in its current state) is just another work of man

To be fair there is an argument over if the original language of the bible supports eternal punishment at all

Just another good example why the bible (specially in its current state) is just another work of man

i could have used thousands of examples from the old testament where god punished people for thier actions and even by the actions of others. but of course, its the old testament and no longer relevant and all that blable...

yeah i know UT, your right...

I think Bakunin summed up the whole God issue best - "If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him".

i could have used thousands of examples from the old testament where god punished people for thier actions and even by the actions of others. but of course, its the old testament and no longer relevant and all that blable...

yeah i know UT, your right...
Yeah the god of the OT is an ass … free will my ass, when he did not get what he wanted he just killed everyone off like some spoiled brat that didn’t get his way

I have a question: When did "free will" become "free choice"? So many people use this new term, now.

I have a question: When did "free will" become "free choice"? So many people use this new term, now.
Yeah I used the wrong one in my last post … but read earlier I understand the concept lol

Is God a jerk? Yeah, I lent that guy twenty bucks like three months ago. I've never seen a penny of it. I keep calling and calling his house: "God, pick up, it's Adriana. I, uh, really need the twenty dollars back." I think he screens his calls. Ass.

God is perfect. If we think there's something wrong with God, then it probably means there's something wrong with us.

God is perfect. If we think there's something wrong with God, then it probably means there's something wrong with us.
That or god like many other ideas is a purely human concept and origin. Therefore as prone to flaws as any of our other ideas.

God is perfect. If we think there's something wrong with God, then it probably means there's something wrong with us.

god is perfect huh? i fail to see that...

all i know is that if i acted the way god does, you would call me a jerk.

all i know is that if i acted the way god does, you would call me a jerk.

If you had created the universe, I think we'd give you a pass.

If you had created the universe, I think we'd give you a pass.
I wouldn’t just cause he did something amazing does not excuse his attitude

I wouldn’t just cause he did something amazing does not excuse his attitude

god would be responsible for all life, because he would be the creator. and looking at life as we know it, he either doesnt exist or is doing a piss poor job...

How does your view conecide with the idea that we would not have free choice if god forgave us for our sins and therefore NO one went to hell?

Very good question. I personally believe even when humans were in a state of purity from sin, we still had free will. For a period of time Adam and Eve chose to be obedient, and then chose otherwise. The point is, God gave them a rule of not eating of the fruit of the tree, but didn't prevent them from doing just that.

I believe God does forgive us for our sin. However, it is different from being sinless. Which brings up another theological difference between salvation and redemption. Being "saved" from Hell is something that occurs when God judges our lives when we die. Redemption occurs when Jesus dies on the cross for our sins, and thus forgives us for our transgressions. We are still subject to sin, but with God's grace, we can work towards salvation.

So to make a long story short. Yes, before sin we had free will. Sin is a product of free will. God, in his grace, does forgive us for our sins if we repent but that doesn't mean we still cannot go to Hell. I hope I've explained the difference well.

god would be responsible for all life, because he would be the creator. and looking at life as we know it, he either doesnt exist or is doing a piss poor job...

That's a common viewpoint. Tell me, would we have free will if God prevented anything bad from happening to us?

If you had created the universe, I think we'd give you a pass.
perhaps you would accept it but you would still think i was a jerk. kinda like bill gates made microsoft and is hugely rich but he's still a jerk.

think for a moment about ABEL.

he was favored by god. so much so that his brother killed him in a jealous rage (not gods fault). because of his loser parents he was not allowed into heaven no matter how much god liked him. the rule was "everyone has original sin and is damned"

maybe he was redeemed from hell by jesus after the crucifiction. seems like he should have been but who knows. but even if he WAS, he still had to suffer the torments of hell for 5000 years!

and this was a guy god LIKED.

what a jerk.

Very good question. I personally believe even when humans were in a state of purity from sin, we still had free will. For a period of time Adam and Eve chose to be obedient, and then chose otherwise. The point is, God gave them a rule of not eating of the fruit of the tree, but didn't prevent them from doing just that.

I believe God does forgive us for our sin. However, it is different from being sinless. Which brings up another theological difference between salvation and redemption. Being "saved" from Hell is something that occurs when God judges our lives when we die. Redemption occurs when Jesus dies on the cross for our sins, and thus forgives us for our transgressions. We are still subject to sin, but with God's grace, we can work towards salvation.

So to make a long story short. Yes, before sin we had free will. Sin is a product of free will. God, in his grace, does forgive us for our sins if we repent but that doesn't mean we still cannot go to Hell. I hope I've explained the difference well.


And as such how do you find it just that two humans decisions cause so much pain and suffering for those that had no part in their decision?

(specialy because it is argueable that they did not make an INFORMED decision)

That's a common viewpoint. Tell me, would we have free will if God prevented anything bad from happening to us?

do we have free will in heaven? yes, we would still have free will if god kept bad things from happening...

Regarding the issue of God punishing humans as a parent punishes a child... Not only does God punish once it is too late to learn from the punishment, but God bears a lot of the responsibility for the way we act. Free will isn't absolute, our behaviour is affected by our brain structure and the environment we grow up in.

God's behaviour is comparable to a parent letting their child get away with stealing cookies for years and then punishing disobedience with death. An all powerful or all-loving God I can imagine, but both at the same time? Not in this world...

And as such how do you find it just that two humans decisions cause so much pain and suffering for those that had no part in their decision?

I assume you're referring to Adam and Eve, but correct me if I'm wrong. Given the fact that humans have free will, if Adam and Eve managed to not disobey God in their lifetimes, their children or grandchildren, etc. would have eventually. Certainly, a world with sin is not a nice place. However, we can also learn a lot from the bad that happens, and become even more resolute in doing what is just and right. Our greatest freedom (free will) is also our greatest hindrance. It is one of the great paradoxes. Not to get too philosophical on you, but how would one know true happiness if one has never experienced despair or pain.

do we have free will in heaven?

Irrelevent. We're not in heaven. We're on Earth.

yes, we would still have free will if god kept bad things from happening...

Please, elaborate. So far you've just repeated yourself.

Let me give you an example of how preventing "bad" from happening is an infringement on one's free will. If I were to punch you in the face, it would hurt you, cause pain, and therefore be bad. If God were to physically prevent me from punching you, then I would not be able to choose to commit a wrong act, and therefore have no free will.

perhaps you would accept it but you would still think i was a jerk. kinda like bill gates made microsoft and is hugely rich but he's still a jerk.

think for a moment about ABEL.

he was favored by god. so much so that his brother killed him in a jealous rage (not gods fault). because of his loser parents he was not allowed into heaven no matter how much god liked him. the rule was "everyone has original sin and is damned"

maybe he was redeemed from hell by jesus after the crucifiction. seems like he should have been but who knows. but even if he WAS, he still had to suffer the torments of hell for 5000 years!

and this was a guy god LIKED.

what a jerk.

So, I guess we're assuming any god who exists is the Christian god for the purpose of this debate. If we're assuming that, then you have to accept all the other bullshit about god, like he's omnipotent, good, and that we can't possibly understand his reasons for doing what he does. If that's the case, then why do you think your opinion of god is true or relevant?

Also, I was just joking when I said we'd give you a pass if you had created the universe. But it does illustrate a larger point: if god created the universe and all life in existence, do you think your limited, biased, probably ignorant, misguided, narrow, human and subjective view (based on a document written by humans, not god) even matters? That just gets me, you know. God's sitting up in heaven and he's all powerful and all knowing. He's the creator, he's the alpha, he's the omega, he's the end all and be all of existence. But, I see, god's a jerk because he was mean to Abel. Your argument just rests on a lot of assumptions, one being that natural rules or laws apply to supernatural beings (god).

I'm agnostic, so I don't know if god exists or what he's like if he does exist. But if I accept Christian premises about god, I'd have to say that I'm in no position to judge a supernatural being who thinks and acts at a level so far beyond what my puny chimpanzee brain is able to comprehend. I don't think that, but I would if I were a Christian. I do accept the logical possibility that it's true, though.

That's the point. Look at it this way. You're in court, about to be sentenced to death for your crimes. Suddenly, a man walks in, shoves you aside and takes your place. The judge points at him and says "I sentence you to death". As the man leaves teh court, you ask him why he did this for you. He replies "because I love you". You then hear that the man was the judges only son. You ask the judge why he allowed it and he replies "because I love you". It's an interesting metaphor. Basically, Christ is God. So by God being on earth, as a part of his creation and being killed horribly and unjustly he was able to break the chains that were keeping his creation, who he loves, from reaching him. Assuming they accept his offer.

This exaple has a number of issues. 1) A judge has to obey the rules, a better annalogy would be a ruler who makes up all the rules and can change them at will. 2) It still does not adress the problem of the innocent being punished for the guilty. As I said, that is not justice, it is revenge. If my father stood convicted before a court, would it be justice if I agreed to take the punishment for him? Of course not. Would it be forgiveness on the part of the state to let him go only after punishing me? No.

So we have a ruler who established rules which we have broken and thus fell away from God. You say that Jesus was needed in order to break the chains, but you seem to forget that God being all powerful could have broken those chains without an innocent being sacrificed. Forgiveness is something that is freely given, it is not bartered for a price, therefore to demand a condition for forgiveness is not forgiveness at all.

*Edit: I'd like to add that there's a difference between the Old Testament and New Testament versions of god. He's portrayed as much more wrathful and, well, human in the Old Testament. God tests loyalty, punishes sinners and betrayers, and even makes a wager with Satan. He seems almost jealous and insecure in the Old Testament. God becomes more compassionate, tolerant, forgiving, and supernatural in Christianity, especially Protestantism. Obviously, hell still exists, but Catholicism preaches that god can forgive any sin as long as you confess.

Irrelevent. We're not in heaven. We're on Earth.

it is relevent. if we were in heaven, nothing bad would happen, and we would still have free will. i dont think it cancels free will. in our world, a guy is about to rape a girl, god prevents it from happening, thats protection. god could have created us in heaven, instead of earth. heaven is uncorruptable and therefore sinless. we have free will and nothing bad happens.

Think about it. Do you think he is the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE GOD OF VENGANCE THAT WILL SMITE ALL THE HEATHENS!!!!

Or, could he just be like your favorite uncle that is more than happy to sit you on his lap and chat with you. Not down to you but at your level.

I think the biggest problem we have with religion is that we make GOD this force of Power and Magesty that makes him untouchable. I mean he can't be all that bad.

Now, I also believe that he doesn't meddle in our affairs. I think he is there but just watching us. Helping us in his own quiet way. More like a counsilor than a Force.

And I think that he is much more understanding that we give him credit for. Hell, the bible makes him sound like a Jerk. And if he is a Jerk I want nothing to do with him. I would us all rather just accept one another and just get off hating each other for stupid stuff.

But thats just me. A guy that just wants to have a good time on this planet I like to call home.

(Sorry for the spelling errors.)

If you believe in God, and you believe that what you do and think and say affects the way he treats you (including your family, your dog, and your country), then there are a few observations that I can make.

1. God has it in for Muslims.
2. God loves the Jews (yeah, a lot have been killed, but look how well the survivors are doing).
3. God loves the US, and by extension, the Western world.
4. Looks like God is going to like the Chinese and Indians for some reason.
5. Long term, the Muslims are screwed.

Just an observation, and not intended as a flame. And only if you believe as I stated at the beginning.

*Edit: I'd like to add that there's a difference between the Old Testament and New Testament versions of god. He's portrayed as much more wrathful and, well, human in the Old Testament. God tests loyalty, punishes sinners and betrayers, and even makes a wager with Satan. He seems almost jealous and insecure in the Old Testament. God becomes more compassionate, tolerant, forgiving, and supernatural in Christianity, especially Protestantism. Obviously, hell still exists, but Catholicism preaches that god can forgive any sin as long as you confess.

In the New Testament, Jesus continually brings up hell, constantly condemns the religious leaders, and describes hell as "outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

And when He says "love your neighbor as yourself," He is quoting the Old Testament.

Bottom line, same God, new covenant. He is not insecure, he is sad over people constantly choosing to reject him.

And Hell was created as punishment for Satan and his demons, not for humans. Humans choose to go there by rejecting God. That is the only place you can be and not have God in your face 24/7. So people say God is being unfair/a jerk by giving them what they want!

perhaps you would accept it but you would still think i was a jerk. kinda like bill gates made microsoft and is hugely rich but he's still a jerk.

think for a moment about ABEL.

he was favored by god. so much so that his brother killed him in a jealous rage (not gods fault). because of his loser parents he was not allowed into heaven no matter how much god liked him. the rule was "everyone has original sin and is damned"

maybe he was redeemed from hell by jesus after the crucifiction. seems like he should have been but who knows. but even if he WAS, he still had to suffer the torments of hell for 5000 years!

and this was a guy god LIKED.

what a jerk.

actually there is debate about whether Abel was eligable for heaven or not. I am on the side that he probably was. Seeing as how the whole thing between Cain and Abel got started over a sacrifice. and we know the deal was with Jews that they sacrificed to God to sanctify themselves.

In the New Testament, Jesus continually brings up hell, constantly condemns the religious leaders, and describes hell as "outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

And when He says "love your neighbor as yourself," He is quoting the Old Testament.

Bottom line, same God, new covenant. He is not insecure, he is sad over people constantly choosing to reject him.

And Hell was created as punishment for Satan and his demons, not for humans. Humans choose to go there by rejecting God. That is the only place you can be and not have God in your face 24/7. So people say God is being unfair/a jerk by giving them what they want!

I acknowledge that hell continues to exist in the New Testament. (I actually included that in my original draft, but I decided to edit it out for some stupid reason.) I should also say that Christianity gives you about seventy different ways to avoid going there. I don't disagree that elements of the Old Testament are present in the New Testament, but you must agree that Jesus preaches a new way of living. Moses slaughters his flock for worshipping the golden calf. That wouldn't exactly fall under "WWJD." Your only argument is that Jesus says people can go to hell, and that hell's a bad place, and that Jesus quotes a section from the Old Testament. My point isn't that it's a different god, just that god has a different character in the New Testament, especially in the Protestant sect. Sometimes people use the Old Testament and New Testament interchangeably when describing the good or bad character of god. All I'm asking is that people realize the changing nature of how we perceive god in the Judeo-Christian religions.

Why did Jesus have to die?

"Greater love has no-one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
- John 15 v 13

"This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers."
- 1 John 3:16

So, I guess we're assuming any god who exists is the Christian god for the purpose of this debate. If we're assuming that, then you have to accept all the other bullshit about god, like he's omnipotent, good, and that we can't possibly understand his reasons for doing what he does. If that's the case, then why do you think your opinion of god is true or relevant?

Also, I was just joking when I said we'd give you a pass if you had created the universe. But it does illustrate a larger point: if god created the universe and all life in existence, do you think your limited, biased, probably ignorant, misguided, narrow, human and subjective view (based on a document written by humans, not god) even matters? That just gets me, you know. God's sitting up in heaven and he's all powerful and all knowing. He's the creator, he's the alpha, he's the omega, he's the end all and be all of existence. But, I see, god's a jerk because he was mean to Abel. Your argument just rests on a lot of assumptions, one being that natural rules or laws apply to supernatural beings (god).

I'm agnostic, so I don't know if god exists or what he's like if he does exist. But if I accept Christian premises about god, I'd have to say that I'm in no position to judge a supernatural being who thinks and acts at a level so far beyond what my puny chimpanzee brain is able to comprehend. I don't think that, but I would if I were a Christian. I do accept the logical possibility that it's true, though.
yes he was a jerk because he was mean to abel. its a human judgement and THIS human is making it. he was also a jerk for sending bears to kill children who mocked a prophet for being bald. he was also a jerk for destroying all of sodom and gamorrah down to the new born babes. he was also a jerk for destroying all life on earth but those who were in the ark (he as much as admitted being a jerk for that one) it goes on and on

not that the greek and roman gods werent worse, they fucked with people just for the hell of it.

i dont have a problem with things like evil existing or this life being a test or the world that god set up being imperfect. all im saying is that from time to time god is a jerk.

I acknowledge that hell continues to exist in the New Testament. (I actually included that in my original draft, but I decided to edit it out for some stupid reason.) I should also say that Christianity gives you about seventy different ways to avoid going there. I don't disagree that elements of the Old Testament are present in the New Testament, but you must agree that Jesus preaches a new way of living. Moses slaughters his flock for worshipping the golden calf. That wouldn't exactly fall under "WWJD." Your only argument is that Jesus says people can go to hell, and that hell's a bad place, and that Jesus quotes a section from the Old Testament. My point isn't that it's a different god, just that god has a different character in the New Testament, especially in the Protestant sect. Sometimes people use the Old Testament and New Testament interchangeably when describing the good or bad character of god. All I'm asking is that people realize the changing nature of how we perceive god in the Judeo-Christian religions.
In the old testament you had to sacrifice something to purify yourself, and blot out your sins. When Jesus died he became the ultimate sacrifice, that is the last one, the only worthy one. Sacrificing anything else doesn't work anymore. You must accept Jesus. The new testament is very clear that Jesus is The only way to heaven.

*When I use the word 'you' I am not speaking to you personally I am speaking for the more general 'you'. This is what I believe to be fact, I am not trying to tell others what to believe, only trying to explain.....

yes he was a jerk because he was mean to abel. its a human judgement and THIS human is making it. he was also a jerk for sending bears to kill children who mocked a prophet for being bald. he was also a jerk for destroying all of sodom and gamorrah down to the new born babes. he was also a jerk for destroying all life on earth but those who were in the ark (he as much as admitted being a jerk for that one) it goes on and on

i dont have a problem with things like evil existing or this life being a test or the world that god set up being imperfect. all im saying is that from time to time god is a jerk.
interesting.
exactly how was God "mean" to Abel?

actually there is debate about whether Abel was eligable for heaven or not. I am on the side that he probably was. Seeing as how the whole thing between Cain and Abel got started over a sacrifice. and we know the deal was with Jews that they sacrificed to God to sanctify themselves.
its hard to know what rules abel was subject to. he wasnt a jew. the jews started with abraham. there was no need to be circumcized. there were no kosher laws. there were no churches to attend.

given the primitive state of things, he didnt have the opportunity to do many things wrong. we dont know much about him except that god preferred his sacrifice to cain's. i think its OK to assume that since he got killed so soon after making an accepted offering to god that he did qualify as a soul to be redeemed from hell.

but what about cain? he was sent off to the land of nod with a mark on his forehead warning people to let him alone. he had alot of years to live. if he came to fully regret murdering his brother would he qualilfy for heaven too?

Hi all, how's it going? I find it amazing the amount of response we get in just 2 days when we discuss the topic of God. Also striking is the amount of people that have posted - it seems everyone has a view on this topic :)

Before I throw in my 5 cent worth, I want to say that I am a Christian. I havn't been a Christian my whole life. In fact, I only became a Christian last year - that was one of the toughest decisions I have faced so far. So it's fair to say that I do not know everything about God by a long stretch. I am still learning everyday, little by little more stuff about this God. What I can share with you though is my struggles with some of those questions that have been raised and what I have found out. What worked for me may not work for you so I encourage you guys to really look into it yourself. Chat with others, physically pick up a Bible and read it. You may be thinking why bother? It's a whole lot of bullshit anyway.

Well, for many years, I thought Christians were just weak, gullible people mindlessly following an illogical religion. But I had never picked up the book to read it myself. After a while, it strike me that my opinions really weren't mine at all - I was just repeating what others have told me - that all Gods are the same - all the religions are really different view points of God and that they are all correct in the end because they lead people to doing good; sometimes that there is no God - we are on our own, afterall, where is God when disasters happen? When the plague happened? When million of innocent children starve each year in developing countries? There were very valid points (and I will talk more on that later) but in the end I was arguing against Christianity just because I was told to. I was the gullible person. This is a topic too important to just rely on what others have told you. Whether you are for or against, have an opinion and more importantly, have a reason for your opinion based on evidence you have found for yourself. And what better place for evidence to look at than the Bible, the foundation of Christianity itself? If you are for God, then you should know why are you for God. In fact, He commanded you to be ready to give an explanation. You are not to mindlessly follow God. If you are against God, then you need to know 'your enemy' so to speak. You have to know the points of the other side and know why you are against them.

Enough said, lets get on with it.




Is God a Jerk?

If he existed, yes.

What I wan to know is why no christian can take an honest look at the religion they follow, with an objectionable mindset.

In otherwords, why cant they take a look through the eyes of a nuetral viewpoint, when assessing what they believe, or want to believe?

Example:

If you belive in God, you must accept God's omnipotency.
God can do anything, he created all, and influences all.
You cannot pick and choose what to accept, you must believe this.
Therfore, you must also realize, that if the above is true, and acccepted, that God is also the type of bastard that would kill thousands in a Tsunami in Thailand.
Or thousands in Lousiana.
Or millions in Poland, Hungary, Rwanada, Iraq, Korea, China, Russia....etc.

Now keep in mind were going on the basic principles that God is both omnipotent, and omniscient.

The line of thinking goes thusly:

If God is all knowing and all powerful, then why would he allow so many innocent people to die?

Standard answer: "God is smarter than us, and we dont understand his reasons, although he has them, and he loves us."

So logically deduced, from the above statements, can not the only answer be:

God kills innocent people all the time, and doesnt feel the need to explain why. He also doesnt feel the need to apologize in person.
Or make public appearances at all for that matter.
He is quoted as loving us very much, but allows some pretty awful shi, happen to good honest people on a regular basis.

My question is, is this the kind of guy you should follow?
What kind of "Heaven" is he offering, anyway?

That is one of the questions I have struggled with for a long time. It is a long story and it will certainly take more than 1 post to give a complete answer (and even then, there are stuff we don't know). Nevertheless, I will do my best.

In Genesis, the very first section of the Bible, we are told that God is the creator. He made the world and he made us. The world is NOT the same world as we know it today, it was a perfect world with no death and no suffering that we so often see in our world today. It was a just world where we do not have the good people dying and the bad guys running free. It was a perfect world. He made us to look after and rule over THIS world (including the animals etc) and to enjoy what is around us. We were to do so under his rule and give him the credit that was due to him as the creator. But instead, we turned our backs on him and decided to rule over our own lives. We disobeyed God - that is, we sinned. (sin is not just doing immoral things, it's defined as doing stuff that God said not to) The consequence of sin is opening the door to death and suffering that we know today. Sin entered the world and corrupted it. The world we know it right now is screwed up (and it doesn't take a religion to tell us that! ;) ) - it is not what God has originally designed. That is why people die in tragic events like tsunami, in floods, in hurricanes and plagues and starvation etc. Sin is the cause of death, not God - and God hates sin.

And you are right that if God, being omnipotent and omniscient, is just sitting there with his arms crossed doing nothing, then he is not loving. I certainly won't want to follow a God like that and wouldn't expect anyone to. But he is not. He has put in place a rescue plan for the world and it is happening this very moment. In fact, it has been happening for literally thousands of years now and continues to happen. Jesus is the main part of that plan - that is why Christians are obsessed with him. The Bible is devided into many chapters, but is a continuous record of God and his actions. Contrary to what was said in the quote - he has actually explained himself in that regard. The question is: Are we ready to listen?


Thanks to all those that have read through all that :) It was very long and tedious, but I hope it gave an appreciation of how hugh this topic really is. I know I have not answered all the questions that have been posed - otherwise we'll all be here by next year! =P Keep the questions coming and if you see something that doesn't go down well with you, throw it out for discussion.

Excuse the formating and spelling mistakes etc. First time posting on here.

interesting.
exactly how was God "mean" to Abel?
5000 years of torment in hell until he was redeemed by jesus's death

but what about cain? he was sent off to the land of nod with a mark on his forehead warning people to let him alone. he had alot of years to live. if he came to fully regret murdering his brother would he qualilfy for heaven too?
not sure. I am not God, nor was I around then. My only point of reference on the whole situation is the Bible and since it doesn't address that specifically, I hate to assume.

If you are to make your only judge an invisible man who never talks to anyone, you shouldn't expect him to provide you with any especially thought-out rules.

5000 years of torment in hell until he was redeemed by jesus's death
I don't really think there is any scriptural basis at all for that statement.

ive actually gone over a question like this many times. If the christian god is supposed to be benevolent, then why the hell does he painfully punish people instead of try to reform them?

well, many will say that he gave us free will, he doesnt control us, we do our own actions, and some will say he knows what actions we will take even before our birth. so what im saying is he doesnt mess with our lifes too much, he sets rules and he watches as we obey or disobey

one other reason, is punishment works in reforming, it is true. if your mother said not to do something and you wont get to go to the (insert favorite childhood activity here) you most likely wont do it, but if your mother said dont do that but if you do it or not i will still let you go to (insert favorite childhood activity here), you would most likely do it then.

I don't really think there is any scriptural basis at all for that statement.

theres alot of scripture that never made it into the bible, said to be in the vatican, i personally try to stick with whats in the bible.

theres alot of scripture that never made it into the bible, said to be in the vatican, i personally try to stick with whats in the bible.
yeah but most of it was gnostic works, I don't really count them as true scripture.

I don't really think there is any scriptural basis at all for that statement.
where do you think abel went when he died? it sure wasnt heaven and protestants dont believe in limbo

where do you think abel went when he died? it sure wasnt heaven and protestants dont believe in limbo
why not heaven?

where do you think abel went when he died? it sure wasnt heaven and protestants dont believe in limbo

no one can answer that question, no one can even begin, if you feel you must ultimatly know the answer to that, pray, thats the only way you may even come close to the answer

I don't really think there is any scriptural basis at all for that statement. In fact, there is reason to believe that after death there is oblivion until the Judgement - so nothing at all, just a 5000 year long sleep.

Also, has Ashmoria not heard of limbo?
[EDIT/] Okay, fine, protestants don't. Sorry, didn't see that.

why not heaven?
well mostly because the christian story is that the only way to get to heaven is through the blood sacrifice of jesus. abel died 5000 years before jesus so he had to wait until that price was paid

if anyone could get into heaven, what was the point of jesus?

what I always get stuck which I don't think is really explained in the bibile is weather satan had freewill. I could never understand why someone would chose to rebel against a being of unlimited power. It makes no sense.

In fact, there is reason to believe that after death there is oblivion until the Judgement - so nothing at all, just a 5000 year long sleep.

Also, has Ashmoria not heard of limbo?
[EDIT/] Okay, fine, protestants don't. Sorry, didn't see that.

not that im protestant, i put that in because smunkeeville is protestant (i think)

limbo has no direct scriptural basis. its a catholic construct inferred from certain biblical passages and is designed to make god seem like less of a jerk.

I assume you're referring to Adam and Eve, but correct me if I'm wrong. Given the fact that humans have free will, if Adam and Eve managed to not disobey God in their lifetimes, their children or grandchildren, etc. would have eventually. Certainly, a world with sin is not a nice place. However, we can also learn a lot from the bad that happens, and become even more resolute in doing what is just and right. Our greatest freedom (free will) is also our greatest hindrance. It is one of the great paradoxes. Not to get too philosophical on you, but how would one know true happiness if one has never experienced despair or pain.



Yeah and I also would not find it just if one of the subsequent generations caused that pain to all following generations

Simply I find punishing the son for the sins of the fauther to be unjust

what I always get stuck which I don't think is really explained in the bibile is weather satan had freewill. I could never understand why someone would chose to rebel against a being of unlimited power. It makes no sense. Pride can work wonders.

Pride doesn't really work for me.. I don't see how pride would drive even the mightiest of angels into attempting to overthrow his creator. Would god create a being who could rival him. What kind of being could possibly think they could overthrow god? It's madnessss I say!

So we have a ruler who established rules which we have broken and thus fell away from God. You say that Jesus was needed in order to break the chains, but you seem to forget that God being all powerful could have broken those chains without an innocent being sacrificed. Forgiveness is something that is freely given, it is not bartered for a price, therefore to demand a condition for forgiveness is not forgiveness at all.

You seem to have misunderstood me. What I'm saying is, Jesus is God. Hence, "In the beggining was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God." What it boild down to is "For God so loved the world that he sent his own belloved son that whoever should believe shalt not die but live eternally". In other words, Christ is a part of God. And Christ was a new covenant. The first covenant was with the 10 commandments. Those laws were becoming irrelevant, and people were missing the point. So God had to do it another way. It's all about love, you see? God may be all powerful, but just because you make the rules doesn't mean you can break them.

well mostly because the christian story is that the only way to get to heaven is through the blood sacrifice of jesus. abel died 5000 years before jesus so he had to wait until that price was paid

if anyone could get into heaven, what was the point of jesus?
Christians say that the only way now to get into heaven is through Jesus, that wasn't always true. It used to be to get into heaven you had to follow a whole bunch of rules and make sacrifice yearly if not more often. That was the old law, after Jesus died we came under the new law. Meaning that none of that other stuff worked anymore.

In fact, there is reason to believe that after death there is oblivion until the Judgement - so nothing at all, just a 5000 year long sleep.
again I am going to have to ask exactly what scripture you are basing that on.
If you could please post it, I would like to see.

Christians say that the only way now to get into heaven is through Jesus, that wasn't always true. It used to be to get into heaven you had to follow a whole bunch of rules and make sacrifice yearly if not more often. That was the old law, after Jesus died we came under the new law. Meaning that none of that other stuff worked anymore.
you need to talk to your minister. if you belong to a mainstream protestant sect that just isnt true.

again I am going to have to ask exactly what scripture you are basing that on.
If you could please post it, I would like to see. Well as far as I know, Christ will judge the "living and the dead" at the end of the world. This implies (implicitly) that the dead won't be judged before then.

you need to talk to your minister. if you belong to a mainstream protestant sect that just isnt true.
I am going to have to ask for scriptural background for your veiws. I know full well that there are a lot of people who believe things just because someone "told" them that. I am not one of those people, I research everything, if you can't give me a place to start then I can't research your point of veiw.

Well as far as I know, Christ will judge the "living and the dead" at the end of the world. This implies (implicitly) that the dead won't be judged before then.
some say that means spiritually dead. it is ambiguous.
it is probably a discussion for a different thred.
I know there is disagreement, but for someone to say for a fact that something is true pertaining to my faith, I always ask for scriptural reference.

I am going to have to ask for scriptural background for your veiws. I know full well that there are a lot of people who believe things just because someone "told" them that. I am not one of those people, I research everything, if you can't give me a place to start then I can't research your point of veiw.
you mean youve never been told that when jesus died he descended into hell and redeemed the righteous souls?

he could have, for example, tossed adam and eve out of paradise but not saddle them with the curse of passing on their sin to all their decendant. that way everyone from then on would face the same even playing field for getting into heaven.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

you mean youve never been told that when jesus died he descended into hell and redeemed the righteous souls?
sure. I read the verses and researched it too.
They weren't in Hell.

The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).
The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was, and a place of torment where the rich man was. The word hell in verse 23 is not “Gehenna” (place of eternal torment) but “Hades” (place of the dead). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise (Luke 23:43). Between these two districts of Hades is “a great gulf fixed” (Luke 16:26).
Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).

really you must have a minister
call him up and ask him if the good people of the old testament went to heaven

jesus didnt suffer and die on the cross so that we could eat shellfish.

really you must have a minister
call him up and ask him if the good people of the old testament went to heaven

jesus didnt suffer and die on the cross so that we could eat shellfish.
I never said they did go to heaven. I asked why you thought they didn't. That was a question not a statement. I did say they weren't in hell, that is different. It really helps to go back to the original languages and figure out what the words mean and not read into it what you want. I don't believe that God would send Moses, Abraham, Job and so on to hell to "rot" while waiting for Jesus. I was rather misleading earlier to say that there was another way to "get into heaven" before Jesus died. I meant that there was a sacrificial system in place to gain forgiveness of your sins, that is no longer needed.

I never said they did go to heaven. I asked why you thought they didn't. That was a question not a statement. I did say they weren't in hell, that is different. It really helps to go back to the original languages and figure out what the words mean and not read into it what you want. I don't believe that God would send Moses, Abraham, Job and so on to hell to "rot" while waiting for Jesus. I was rather misleading earlier to say that there was another way to "get into heaven" before Jesus died. I meant that there was a sacrificial system in place to gain forgiveness of your sins, that is no longer needed.
so you DO believe in limbo. interesting position for a protestant. do you belong to a sect that believes in limbo?

so you DO believe in limbo. interesting position for a protestant. do you belong to a sect that believes in limbo?
I guess it would really depend on what your definition of limbo is.
I trace all my beliefs back to what I have researched in scripture. I don't believe in purgatory (which some people believe is interchangable with limbo) because I have found no scriptural basis for it, in fact much of my study has pointed out verses that seem to make purgatory impossible.

I guess it would really depend on what your definition of limbo is.
I trace all my beliefs back to what I have researched in scripture. I don't believe in purgatory (which some people believe is interchangable with limbo) because I have found no scriptural basis for it, in fact much of my study has pointed out verses that seem to make purgatory impossible.
yeah thats what limbo is, a special place in hell where there is no suffering. its my understanding that many of the verses that support the idea of purgatory are in books of the bible that the prostestants dont use.

Yup, God's an asswipe. If he existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.


He's a slavedriver, and we're the slaves/pets.

yeah thats what limbo is, a special place in hell where there is no suffering. its my understanding that many of the verses that support the idea of purgatory are in books of the bible that the prostestants dont use.
The purpose (from what I understand) of purgatory is so people can "work thier way into heaven" after they die. I see no scriptural basis for this. The "limbo" that I was speaking of wasn't technically in hell, Hades just meant place for the dead, it didn't mean hell, there is a whole other word that describes hell. I don't think there is a purpose for it anymore anyway. You either go to heaven or you don't, it is simple, after you die there isn't really anything for you to do but deal with the concequences of your choices while on earth. (ie accept or reject Jesus)

what books of the Bible do you think protestants ignore anyway? I am curious.

The purpose (from what I understand) of purgatory is so people can "work thier way into heaven" after they die. I see no scriptural basis for this. The "limbo" that I was speaking of wasn't technically in hell, Hades just meant place for the dead, it didn't mean hell, there is a whole other word that describes hell. I don't think there is a purpose for it anymore anyway. You either go to heaven or you don't, it is simple, after you die there isn't really anything for you to do but deal with the concequences of your choices while on earth. (ie accept or reject Jesus)

what books of the Bible do you think protestants ignore anyway? I am curious.
take a look at the list of books in the catholic bible, youll see some you dont recognize.

take a look at the list of books in the catholic bible, youll see some you dont recognize.
wow. I looked it up. Catholics do have extra books. Where did they come from? I tried to google it but no luck. Why do you think they aren't in my Bible? I am going to have to go out and buy a Catholic bible now just to check it out.....

wow. I looked it up. Catholics do have extra books. Where did they come from? I tried to google it but no luck. Why do you think they aren't in my Bible? I am going to have to go out and buy a Catholic bible now just to check it out.....

Catholics don't have extra books. Protestants lack books. I'm not trying to be an ass, but it was the Protestant movement that took the books out of the canon. They are referred to as the Apocrypha by Protestants, and the Deuterocanonical books by Catholics. The Orthodox Church also accepts these books in their Bible.

Catholics don't have extra books. Protestants lack books. I'm not trying to be an ass, but it was the Protestant movement that took the books out of the canon. They are referred to as the Apocrypha by Protestants, and the Deuterocanonical books by Catholics. The Orthodox Church also accepts these books in their Bible.
I am sorry. I didn't mean to offend. I should really double check my posts. I just never heard of these books. I have heard of other books of the Bible that weren't in the canon but not these specifically, I was surprised. again, I appologize for my rude wording.
forgive??

I am sorry. I didn't mean to offend. I should really double check my posts. I just never heard of these books. I have heard of other books of the Bible that weren't in the canon but not these specifically, I was surprised. again, I appologize for my rude wording.

Hey, no problem. I apologize for being brutally frank. All is forgiven. :)

Hey, no problem. I apologize for being brutally frank. All if forgiven.

no need to apologize. If I am being rude believe me I want to know. I don't wish to offend anyone and if I do, I always want it pointed out to me. :D

wow. I looked it up. Catholics do have extra books. Where did they come from? I tried to google it but no luck. Why do you think they aren't in my Bible? I am going to have to go out and buy a Catholic bible now just to check it out.....
id check them out on the net first if i were you, they arent the most dramatic ones. do y'all have "the begats" in your bible? i dont remember what the book is called? and eclesasticus?

id check them out on the net first if i were you, they arent the most dramatic ones. do y'all have "the begats" in your bible? i dont remember what the book is called? and eclesasticus?
you mean so and so begat so and so and he begat so and so
yeah we got a lot of that.

ecclesiastics?? yeah we got that one.

you mean so and so begat so and so and he begat so and so
yeah we got a lot of that.

ecclesiastics?? yeah we got that one.
there is ecclesiastes -- to everthing there is a season

and ecclesiasticus -- i cant remember what its about

edit

or not, i dont see it on the list that i just pulled up online.

I've seen him at it, then he smited me, but I'm pretty sure it was a "Farmers Daily" :p

there is ecclesiastes -- to everthing there is a season

and ecclesiasticus -- i cant remember what its about

edit

or not, i dont see it on the list that i just pulled up online.

ecclesiasticus is also know as the Book of Sirach or The Wisdom of Yeshua Ben Sira...

is GOD a JERK?

well... The answers to this question is as simple as this:

HE IS A JERK.... in the same measure that you (and I mean ALL OF YOU) consider yourselves Jerks.

It's really simple (at least in my concept of LIFE): God is the unmoveable force that make us all as holy and as evil as we want it to be. God is the Willpower of humanity in just one simple word. God is our reason to live, and our reason to die, our reason to love, to hate, to kill, to hope for something...

God, in the simple words of this man, God is the Faith we have in our own future. And That is something that every religion in this little planet wants to say to you...

I hope some of you agreed with my way of thinking... and for those who did not, well, good for you...

there is ecclesiastes -- to everthing there is a season

and ecclesiasticus -- i cant remember what its about

edit

or not, i dont see it on the list that i just pulled up online.
yeah bad spelling got me again. I meant ecclesiastes. sorry. I am cooking dinner, cleaning up the living room, helping my kid with homework and posting at the same time. had to slack off on one of them and this seemed like the least important.

God is completely just in all He does. Granted sometimes He may be seen as a jerk. Like one time I dowloaded a cd and bought it later. That was the hardest cd I have ever opened. He has taught me to buy cds first. Jerk? Maybe. Just? Always.

ecclesiasticus is also know as the Book of Sirach or The Wisdom of Yeshua Ben Sira...
thank you so much, i was at a loss as to what had happened to my memory

thank you so much, i was at a loss as to what had happened to my memory

no prob... ;)

Being pretty much a Deist (I have no beliefs one way or the other, beyond 'stuff exists, we can only explain why it exists to a certain point, so something created all of it'), I can't really say if "God" is a jerk or not.

I will say that if God is supposed to be everywhere, in everything, at all times, and he's supposed to be helping people that need it, he's not quite managing.

I believe that the true nature of God is one of the plain and precious truths that has been lost from the Bible (1 Ne. 13:20-26,28-29).

Many people misunderstand the nature God for this reason.

There are a few things we have to understand about God. He loves his children, He is both just and merciful, and that He gives unto men their agency (their ability to choose, and act for themselves).

Because of the justice of God he cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance (D&C 1:31). But because of his mercy and his love for his children he has prepared a way that men might obtain mercy if they will keep his commandments, for mercy cannot rob justice, or God would cease to be God (2 Ne. 9:21-24; Alma 42:13,23-25).

Many people question the existence of God because bad things often happen to people that have done nothing wrong. What those people don't understand is that it is necessary for us to suffer sorrow and even misery in this life or we would not have happiness or joy either; it is the contrast between these opposites that provides definition (2 Ne. 2:11-12).

There are many scriptures that do a much better job of explaining what I am trying to say. The scripture references mentioned above can be found by following these links (listed in the order in which they appeared in my above comments):

http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/13/20-26,28-29#20**
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/1/31#31
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/11-12#11
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/9/21-24#21
http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/42/13,23-25#13

**It is important to note that the great and abominable church mentioned in these verses is not the catholic church, but people from all walks of life who, knowing the truth, chose to fight against it for the various reasons mentioned in verses 7-9 (http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/13/7-9#7).

That is one of the questions I have struggled with for a long time. ....snip...

But instead, we turned our backs on him and decided to rule over our own lives. We disobeyed God - that is, we sinned.

As I said before, My biggest problem with this is that Christians cant look outside thier own religion, to get a better view.
You started right off with Genesis, and the introduction of sin onto the world.
Let me say this:

This passage indicates that God is kind and loving, and gave us a paradise, and even though the very embodiment of evil, in the form of a snake, manifested before Eve, and tempted her to eat the fruit of knowledge, becuase she gave into the ultimate demonic force , compared to wich, no human is a match, God casts them away from himself, and Eden?

One mistake, and POOF! OUT YA GET YA BUMS!

this doesnt make sense

Moving on:



(sin is not just doing immoral things, it's defined as doing stuff that God said not to)

God says a great number of things that we consider wrong and immoral, like the legal ownership of living beings.
Big differences in the Old and New Testaments.


The consequence of sin is opening the door to death and suffering that we know today. Sin entered the world and corrupted it. The world we know it right now is screwed up (and it doesn't take a religion to tell us that! ;) ) - it is not what God has originally designed. That is why people die in tragic events like tsunami, in floods, in hurricanes and plagues and starvation etc. Sin is the cause of death, not God - and God hates sin.

Ok.
Right here.
Look at that from my perspective.
What Im hearing is:

"Even though God is all powerful, bad things happen to Good people, and God is absolves of any repsonsibility."

Wether or not that is true, you must admit that is what this sounds like.

And you are right that if God, being omnipotent and omniscient, is just sitting there with his arms crossed doing nothing, then he is not loving. I certainly won't want to follow a God like that and wouldn't expect anyone to. But he is not. He has put in place a rescue plan for the world and it is happening this very moment. In fact, it has been happening for literally thousands of years now and continues to happen. Jesus is the main part of that plan - that is why Christians are obsessed with him. The Bible is devided into many chapters, but is a continuous record of God and his actions. Contrary to what was said in the quote - he has actually explained himself in that regard. The question is: Are we ready to listen?

So...youre saying, that the tsunami that hit Thailand, the victims of wich werent even Christian in any kind of majority, were all taken care of by God?

Even if they hadnt been "saved"?

No.
Not by christian logic.
Those people are in hell, because they had not accepted Jesus as thier personal saviour.

Therefore, God just sent thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people, straight to hell.....all becuase sin entered the world, thousands and thousands of years ago?

Do you see now what I mean when I say the absurdity of the logic in following such a being, if he exists at all?

If you were to insist that God is indeed benevolent, and loving, then he would not do such things as the above states.

If God does allow the above to happen, then he is NOT a good loving guy, and therefore, cannot exist, as you know him to.

So, wich is it?


Thanks to all those that have read through all that :) It was very long and tedious, but I hope it gave an appreciation of how hugh this topic really is. I know I have not answered all the questions that have been posed - otherwise we'll all be here by next year! =P Keep the questions coming and if you see something that doesn't go down well with you, throw it out for discussion.

Excuse the formating and spelling mistakes etc. First time posting on here.

Here ya go.

I believe that the true nature of God is one of the plain and precious truths that has been lost from the Bible (1 Ne. 13:20-26,28-29).

Many people misunderstand the nature God for this reason.

There are a few things we have to understand about God. He loves his children, He is both just and merciful, and that He gives unto men their agency (their ability to choose, and act for themselves).

Because of the justice of God he cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance (D&C 1:31). But because of his mercy and his love for his children he has prepared a way that men might obtain mercy if they will keep his commandments, for mercy cannot rob justice, or God would cease to be God (2 Ne. 9:21-24; Alma 42:13,23-25).

Many people question the existence of God because bad things often happen to people that have done nothing wrong. What those people don't understand is that it is necessary for us to suffer sorrow and even misery in this life or we would not have happiness or joy either; it is the contrast between these opposites that provides definition (2 Ne. 2:11-12).

There are many scriptures that do a much better job of explaining what I am trying to say. The scripture references mentioned above can be found by following these links (listed in the order in which they appeared in my above comments):

http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/13/20-26,28-29#20**
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/1/31#31
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/11-12#11
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/9/21-24#21
http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/42/13,23-25#13

**It is important to note that the great and abominable church mentioned in these verses is not the catholic church, but people from all walks of life who, knowing the truth, chose to fight against it for the various reasons mentioned in verses 7-9 (http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/13/7-9#7).


There is a difference between knowing of suffering, that one can know of joy, and the mass drowinging of 100,000 people.

"BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! Row, ya bastards!"

There is a difference between knowing of suffering, that one can know of joy, and the mass drowinging of 100,000 people.

To what are you refering exactly?

Another thing to understand is that our existence does not begin at birth, nor does it end at death. We do not always understand god's purposes when death is involved, because we, as temporal beings, cannot, as yet, see past death.

ive actually gone over a question like this many times. If the christian god is supposed to be benevolent, then why the hell does he painfully punish people instead of try to reform them?

He does try and reform us. He does his best to give people there entire lives for a chance to reform. The fact is that if you dont, you will go to hell. However it is important to understand that hell was not originally created for humans. It was originally created for Lucifer and his consorts as they tried to rebell aginst God. However Lucifer wasnt the only one to rebell against God. We as humans rebel agaisnst him when we sin. Sin means that we go to hell. Fortunetly God created a way round this through Jesus

However Lucifer wasnt the only one to rebell against God. We as humans rebel agaisnst him when we sin. Sin means that we go to hell. Fortunetly God created a way round this through Jesus

Now please explain why not doing Gods will makes one a bad person.
Hint: you will need to provide proof that God has humanities best interests at heart - or alternatively that he acts in accordance with the best interests of other things that are more important than humanity in the grand scheme of things. In the last case you must also argue why humanity must accept this secondary role instead of trying to make something of itself.

He does try and reform us. He does his best to give people there entire lives for a chance to reform. The fact is that if you dont, you will go to hell. However it is important to understand that hell was not originally created for humans. It was originally created for Lucifer and his consorts as they tried to rebell aginst God. However Lucifer wasnt the only one to rebell against God. We as humans rebel agaisnst him when we sin. Sin means that we go to hell. Fortunetly God created a way round this through Jesus
Yet at some point he gives up ... for eternity

Now please explain why not doing Gods will makes one a bad person.
Hint: you will need to provide proof that God has humanities best interests at heart - or alternatively that he acts in accordance with the best interests of other things that are more important than humanity in the grand scheme of things. In the last case you must also argue why humanity must accept this secondary role instead of trying to make something of itself.

He created us and designed us. He is our father. The reason we should do his will is out of love for him in the same way he has love for us. Not doing his will is equivilent to a child disobeying its father. The reason we accept the secondary role is that he created us. We are not supieror to him period.

Yet at some point he gives up ... for eternity

What would you have him do? Force us into loving him? He gives us all the oppotunity to turn and accept him. You cant force people to love him, that is not what love means. The very reason he is keeping the end of the world at bay right now is because he wants the maximum number of people to turn to him. He will not force us to turn to him because he wants us to love him turely, and you cant force love becuase thats not what love means

He created us and designed us. He is our father. The reason we should do his will is out of love for him in the same way he has love for us. Not doing his will is equivilent to a child disobeying its father. The reason we accept the secondary role is that he created us. We are not supieror to him period.
I don’t condone a parent EVER disowning a child, it’s a parents job to teach and love … not to give up

The equivalent of what he does if we don’t listen to him

What would you have him do? Force us into loving him? He gives us all the oppotunity to turn and accept him. You cant force people to love him, that is not what love means. The very reason he is keeping the end of the world at bay right now is because he wants the maximum number of people to turn to him. He will not force us to turn to him because he wants us to love him turely, and you cant force love becuase thats not what love means
Where did I ever say force … at some point (or death) he give up and lets us be punished eternally
An all loving being would NEVER give up and he WOULD spend the time to sit us down and let us know what’s going on rather then leaving us with the insufficient (for me) “proof” that exists in this reality

I don’t condone a parent EVER disowning a child, it’s a parents job to teach and love … not to give up

The equivalent of what he does if we don’t listen to him It's not a matter of him disowning us. It's us disowning him. We can choose to leave any time we want to, and we're always welcome to come back.

It's not a matter of him disowning us. It's us disowning him. We can choose to leave any time we want to, and we're always welcome to come back.
No not always … there is a time when we are not welcome back … after our death

He gives up on us supposedly at that point

I don’t condone a parent EVER disowning a child, it’s a parents job to teach and love … not to give up

The equivalent of what he does if we don’t listen to him

So whats the altenative? Remember also God isnt disowning us. We are disowning him. If we sin, rebel and refuse to enter his hands then ultimately he gives us what we want. Hell. The one place where God is not.

So whats the altenative? Remember also God isnt disowning us. We are disowning him. If we sin, rebel and refuse to enter his hands then ultimately he gives us what we want. Hell. The one place where God is not.
And a point of no return for us

Where did I ever say force … at some point (or death) he give up and lets us be punished eternally
An all loving being would NEVER give up and he WOULD spend the time to sit us down and let us know what’s going on rather then leaving us with the insufficient (for me) “proof” that exists in this reality

You forget, your using your standards of proof. By his standards (which are, incidentally the only ones that actually matter) he has left ample proof. If you dont agree then thats not his problem. You can pray, read the Bible, go to Churches, discussion groups etc to find out as much of the evidence as you like. It is all there. You just have to accept it. God did not send Jesus into the world to prove who he was. He sent Jesus to save us from sin.

And a point of no return for us

You havent provided an alternative yet. This is God's justice. If we ultimately refuse to accept salvation, we cannot be saved. Its just logic. See this article

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html

You forget, your using your standards of proof. By his standards (which are, incidentally the only ones that actually matter) he has left ample proof. If you dont agree then thats not his problem. You can pray, read the Bible, go to Churches, discussion groups etc to find out as much of the evidence as you like. It is all there. You just have to accept it. God did not send Jesus into the world to prove who he was. He sent Jesus to save us from sin.
Who else’s standards of proof should I use? Just because I can logically understand there are lower standards of proof does not mean I can just randomly reduce mine and still “believe”

Again if he truly cared he could make sure mine as WELL as everyone else’s standards of proof.

Someone who wont bother spending that time is not deserving of worship

You havent provided an alternative yet. This is God's justice. If we ultimately refuse to accept salvation, we cannot be saved. Its just logic. See this article

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html
Alternative: got accepts redemption even after the point of being sent to hell

UpwardThrust, this is the metaphor as I see it

A father (God) has his children (humans) whom he does his best to raise and teach (the Bible etc) so that they can have the best life. However the children refuse to learn, disobey their father and ultimately decide they want to lead their life their way and not the way their father says is best. The father tries to teach them and to explain why his way is best, but the children are stubbon and refuse to accept it. Ulitamatlely the father cannot force his children to lead the life he teaches them, any more force would mean physically restraining them, keeping them prisioner in his house (God's unwillingness to breach free will) and even if this did suceeed they would not love him, since love cannot be forced. Ultimately he lets his children live whatever life they want to, and the consequences are up to them.

Who else’s standards of proof should I use? Just because I can logically understand there are lower standards of proof does not mean I can just randomly reduce mine and still “believe”

Again if he truly cared he could make sure mine as WELL as everyone else’s standards of proof.

Someone who wont bother spending that time is not deserving of worship

God does not call us to just abandon logic and accept what he says. What he says is perfectly logical and reasonable. The fact that your standards of proof dont accept it is simpley arrogence on your part, and not the fault of God. God provides enough evidence for the faith he demands. It is your choice to accept it or not.

UpwardThrust, this is the metaphor as I see it

A father (God) has his children (humans) whom he does his best to raise and teach (the Bible etc) so that they can have the best life. However the children refuse to learn, disobey their father and ultimately decide they want to lead their life their way and not the way their father says is best. The father tries to teach them and to explain why his way is best, but the children are stubbon and refuse to accept it. Ulitamatlely the father cannot force his children to lead the life he teaches them, any more force would mean physically restraining them, keeping them prisioner in his house (God's unwillingness to breach free will) and even if this did suceeed they would not love him, since love cannot be forced. Ultimately he lets his children live whatever life they want to, and the consequences are up to them.

But a good parent would always be listening for when his children want to come home… not reaching some point and then stop listening (after our being sent to hell)

A good parent would help his kid back into his home no matter when it was requested

Eternal punishment is not a mark of a good parent they should always be willing to help if their kid decided he wants it

God does not call us to just abandon logic and accept what he says. What he says is perfectly logical and reasonable. The fact that your standards of proof dont accept it is simpley arrogence on your part, and not the fault of God. God provides enough evidence for the faith he demands. It is your choice to accept it or not.
Not to my requirements
You assume I can consciously control my belief … not so. What I have been shown in my life so far does not cause belief in the Christian god … that may change but for right now I have NO option but to not believe

Any more then you could just choose to not believe I can not CHOOSE belief

God has not given me what is necessary for me right now, this is not about arrogance this is about what I NEED.

God does not call us to just abandon logic and accept what he says. What he says is perfectly logical and reasonable. The fact that your standards of proof dont accept it is simpley arrogence on your part, and not the fault of God. God provides enough evidence for the faith he demands. It is your choice to accept it or not.

How is it arrogance on the part of Upwardthrust?

Alternative: got accepts redemption even after the point of being sent to hell

But then people are not chosing to be with him out of love for him, but out of fear of hell. A metaphor C.S.Lewis used for it is like this

We live in an occupied nation (our lives) under the power of an opressive govenrment (the devil). However there are forces (God) who want to liberate us. To that end those forces send a spy (Jesus) to start up an underground resistance movement. Some people join this movemnet (Christians) and some dont (non Christians) and those that dont end up becoming citizens of the opressive govenments regieme and enjoying the benefits of belonging to it and mock and make life hard for those who belong to the resistance. Now when the invaison comes (we die/jugdement day) the resistance movement members join in with the forces of liberation. But the people who joined the opressive government are punished acordingly. Now obviously you cant claim to join the liberating force after they have liberated you, as your only doing it then to secure the benefits of whichever nation is in power

How is it arrogance on the part of Upwardthrust?

Because he thinks that he deserves more of God's attention than he has given him

So we have a ruler who established rules which we have broken and thus fell away from God. You say that Jesus was needed in order to break the chains, but you seem to forget that God being all powerful could have broken those chains without an innocent being sacrificed. Forgiveness is something that is freely given, it is not bartered for a price, therefore to demand a condition for forgiveness is not forgiveness at all.

I'd like to point out that there's the human aspect of it. The story of Jesus is much more powerful in showing God's forgiveness than any story about 'God just forgave us'.

Because he thinks that he deserves more of God's attention than he has given him

Where did he say he thinks he deserves more attention from god then he deserves?

But a good parent would always be listening for when his children want to come home… not reaching some point and then stop listening (after our being sent to hell)

A good parent would help his kid back into his home no matter when it was requested

Eternal punishment is not a mark of a good parent they should always be willing to help if their kid decided he wants it

Thats like saying that a prisoner should be redeamed of his crimes when he's in jail because he now knows how bad jail is. God is not only loving, he is just. And it is this justice which gives us hell

Think about it. Do you think he is the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE GOD OF VENGANCE THAT WILL SMITE ALL THE HEATHENS!!!!

Or, could he just be like your favorite uncle that is more than happy to sit you on his lap and chat with you. Not down to you but at your level.

I think the biggest problem we have with religion is that we make GOD this force of Power and Magesty that makes him untouchable. I mean he can't be all that bad.

Now, I also believe that he doesn't meddle in our affairs. I think he is there but just watching us. Helping us in his own quiet way. More like a counsilor than a Force.

And I think that he is much more understanding that we give him credit for. Hell, the bible makes him sound like a Jerk. And if he is a Jerk I want nothing to do with him. I would us all rather just accept one another and just get off hating each other for stupid stuff.

But thats just me. A guy that just wants to have a good time on this planet I like to call home.

(Sorry for the spelling errors.)
Which God? All Gods are human inventions. Some of them are jerks, some are cute, some are stupid, some are petty, some are noble, and some are just plain weird. It seems like your real question is, "Is YOUR God a jerk," because you're just asking people whether they choose to believe in a God that is nice or one that is mean. You might just as well ask, "Is your imaginary friend a jerk?"

Where did he say he thinks he deserves more attention from god then he deserves?

He said that God has not provided him with enough proof to meet his standards. Thus implying that just for him, God should have given more proof. There is enough proof out there already, but the Devil uses people to make it seem less creadable than it actually is.

So we have a ruler who established rules which we have broken and thus fell away from God. You say that Jesus was needed in order to break the chains, but you seem to forget that God being all powerful could have broken those chains without an innocent being sacrificed. Forgiveness is something that is freely given, it is not bartered for a price, therefore to demand a condition for forgiveness is not forgiveness at all

God is not only all powerful, but he is also perfectly Just. And Jesus's death is the perfect justice for our salvation. Also, Jesus's existance gives God more legiamacy to judge us. Seeing as how he understands what it is like to be human and to suffer

He said that God has not provided him with enough proof to meet his standards. Thus implying that just for him, God should have given more proof. There is enough proof out there already, but the Devil uses people to make it seem less creadable than it actually is.

If there was enough proof out there then why are there so many different religions, athiests, and agnostics?

Think about it. Do you think he is the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE GOD OF VENGANCE THAT WILL SMITE ALL THE HEATHENS!!!!

Or, could he just be like your favorite uncle that is more than happy to sit you on his lap and chat with you. Not down to you but at your level.

I think the biggest problem we have with religion is that we make GOD this force of Power and Magesty that makes him untouchable. I mean he can't be all that bad.

Now, I also believe that he doesn't meddle in our affairs. I think he is there but just watching us. Helping us in his own quiet way. More like a counsilor than a Force.

And I think that he is much more understanding that we give him credit for. Hell, the bible makes him sound like a Jerk. And if he is a Jerk I want nothing to do with him. I would us all rather just accept one another and just get off hating each other for stupid stuff.

But thats just me. A guy that just wants to have a good time on this planet I like to call home.

(Sorry for the spelling errors.)

Really can't be bothered to do a long answer, sorry, but:
Fallen world
Satan
FREE WILL *cough*
Ever heard of prayer? It supposed to be intimate, some make it too intimate but anyway I was doing a short answer.
Everything is permissable, not everything is advisable

More fire and brimstone? Yes please. Why on earth would I give up my time and energy to follow a happy clappy religion which isn't really going to care one way or another whether I haul myself out of bed on a Sunday morning or not? I think I'd just have a lie in thank you very much.

Likewise I don't work just because I believe in a society where people should work to better themselves, I work because I don't want to end up homeless and penniless on the streets.

Don’t give me 'every man can find his own way' or any of that other soft nonsense. Give me fire, and give me hell. A little humility and plain old fear is good for you. Plus who couldn't use a little extra incentive?

If there was enough proof out there then why are there so many different religions, athiests, and agnostics?

Because God gave us free will, and our free will often negates us to accept what God has given us. God may not have given us enough evidence by most peoples standards, but its not peoples standards that matter, its his. And let us not forget that God did not send Jesus into the world to prove who God was, he sent him there to save us from sin.

Because God gave us free will, and our free will often negates us to accept what God has given us. God may not have given us enough evidence by most peoples standards, but its not peoples standards that matter, its his. And let us not forget that God did not send Jesus into the world to prove who God was, he sent him there to save us from sin.

But what about all the proof from the other religions? What makes that proof more valid then say any of Odin's or Set's? Also what makes God's standards more important then Thors, Anubis, or the Pink Unicorn?

But what about all the proof from the other religions? What makes that proof more valid then say any of Odin's or Set's? Also what makes God's standards more important then Thors, Anubis, or the Pink Unicorn?

Ultimately there is more and more valid proof for Christianity than there is any other faith

He does try and reform us. He does his best to give people there entire lives for a chance to reform. The fact is that if you dont, you will go to hell. However it is important to understand that hell was not originally created for humans. It was originally created for Lucifer and his consorts as they tried to rebell aginst God. However Lucifer wasnt the only one to rebell against God. We as humans rebel agaisnst him when we sin. Sin means that we go to hell. Fortunetly God created a way round this through Jesus

More or less true.

But let us as mere mortals, possessing only an imperfect understanding of the laws and will of the Lord, be exceedingly cautious before pronounceing that another soul is doomed to hell. The Lord is merciful, and will make provisions for those that didn't have a fair chance to hear and accept the gospel of Christ.

Also, God judges us according to our thoughts and intentions, as well as our actions. As we can only see another's actions we can only see a portion of the criterion upon which judgement will be passed. A poem I am fond of:

When you get to heaven
it's likely you will view
Many folks whos presence there
will be a shock to you.

But keep it very quiet
and do not even stare
for likely there'll be many
who'll be suprised to see you there

Ultimately there is more and more valid proof for Christianity than there is any other faith

So then what is the valid proof? Instead of just saying that why not go in to telling me what are the valid proofs and why the other religion's proofs are illogical?

Thats like saying that a prisoner should be redeamed of his crimes when he's in jail because he now knows how bad jail is. God is not only loving, he is just. And it is this justice which gives us hell
The difference is prisoners are not sent there for eternity ... they have a set length of stay
God leaves you locked up for eternity

If god were real, then this whole topic is pointless. According to the bible and other religious texts, we have and could not have any concept of the so called allmighty or "its" motives, so why bother debating this? For all we know we could be gods antfarm, in a sense. God could be intent to let us sit on "its" shelf for awile shake us when "its" pissed off that "its" current companion dumped "it". Who knows mabey "it'll" outgrow us and toss us outside or the trash compactor. I just want to finish this post with this little tid-bit. Why is it that you all believe that gods sole purpose is us? The universe? God probably created us a long time ago and moved on to other planets excetera. I'm sure god has more interesting things to worry about than us.

But then again the bible was written by the same individuals who thought WE revolved around the sun, were the center of the universe. This ego trip should end soon. God help us :rolleyes:

Ultimately there is more and more valid proof for Christianity than there is any other faith
Oh really? do share

More fire and brimstone? Yes please... Give me fire, and give me hell. A little humility and plain old fear is good for you. Plus who couldn't use a little extra incentive?


Thank you for making my (and every other Atheist's) day. Hell and eternal punishment is a tool. By using FEAR and TERROR, religions attempt to scare people into submission. Just like Hitler, Stalin... As a little kid I remember learning that if I lied, or whatever, then I was going to burn in hell. Scaring children...very nice of God. Rather than letting people think, religions attempt to control them. Incentive? So, doing good deeds, etc, isn't enough? Oh, thats right, you need to be kept in line. Your comments alone give credibility to the belief that God is a terrorist.

And now that I think about it, I think your God has read The Prince...

Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved.
Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 - 1527), The Prince

The difference is prisoners are not sent there for eternity ... they have a set length of stay
God leaves you locked up for eternity

Diffrence perhaps but the principle is the same

Diffrence perhaps but the principle is the same

Not really. Prison is where people who break the laws go for a time to be punished and rehabilitated to reenter society. Sure there are people locked away for life and put to death but that's a small percentage. I'd say purgatory would seem like a more apt comparison with prison then hell would be.

Diffrence perhaps but the principle is the same
Yup the principal is the same ... which is exactly why I do not believe an all loving being deals with absolutes in this method

Any being that does violates my morals ... I can no more worship said being then you could the devil who violates your morals

So then what is the valid proof? Instead of just saying that why not go in to telling me what are the valid proofs and why the other religion's proofs are illogical?

On a very basic level (there is way more here than I have time to go into) the Bible is writen by more than 50 authors, and covers over a period spanning at least a milliena. Yet throught it there are predictions and events which all can be seen to culminate in the life of a single man. The Gospels in particular are the historical account of 4 men all of whom are Jesus's contemparies, and the Gospels are written in the lifetimes of those who saw Jesus so when they saw them they knew they were true

Islam is based on the writings of one man, in a cave, on his own where he claimed to have visions of God. Obviously the Koran and the Bible do share a lot of the same ideas, but where they differ is Jesus, and the prevailing evidence supports Jesus being the son of God since Islam has only one account of him not being crucified and Christiaity four accounts of his death and resurection

Obviously you could go into far more detail, but this is just a basic level

Not really. Prison is where people who break the laws go for a time to be punished and rehabilitated to reenter society. Sure there are people locked away for life and put to death but that's a small percentage. I'd say purgatory would seem like a more apt comparison with prison then hell would be.

The principle of letting people out of punishment because now that they know how bad the punishment is, is flawed. The punishment exists to render justice. You spend a lifetime disobeying God and trying to run away from him, he gives you what you obviously want. A place without God. AKA Hell. Purgotary doesnt have any scriptural backing

The principle of letting people out of punishment because now that they know how bad the punishment is, is flawed. The punishment exists to render justice. You spend a lifetime disobeying God and trying to run away from him, he gives you what you obviously want. A place without God. AKA Hell. Purgotary doesnt have any scriptural backing

So you believe people can't be rehabilitated? So we should just lock up everyone who breaks a crime and not let them go? Punishment exists for a lot of reasons not just justice. Punishment exists as a deterent. Punishment exists to protect the rest of society from the individuals who break the rules. Punishment exists as a way to remove and rehabilitate the offenders. Saying punishment is for justice is a gross oversimplification of the issue.

On a very basic level (there is way more here than I have time to go into) the Bible is writen by more than 50 authors, and covers over a period spanning at least a milliena. Yet throught it there are predictions and events which all can be seen to culminate in the life of a single man. The Gospels in particular are the historical account of 4 men all of whom are Jesus's contemparies, and the Gospels are written in the lifetimes of those who saw Jesus so when they saw them they knew they were true.
These books were also chosen by a group of men who could not even decide which version of Christianity was right. For all you know these people could have just picked the verisons that supported their view or even worse chosen wrong.

Islam is based on the writings of one man, in a cave, on his own where he claimed to have visions of God. Obviously the Koran and the Bible do share a lot of the same ideas, but where they differ is Jesus, and the prevailing evidence supports Jesus being the son of God since Islam has only one account of him not being crucified and Christiaity four accounts of his death and resurection
Actually I think that most muslims believe Allah wrote the Koran through Mohammed. Its much like the concept of the gospel's being the word of god through whoever wrote them. Of course your claim is no more valid then theirs because how can you prove that god spoke through people.

Obviously you could go into far more detail, but this is just a basic level
And you seem to have already failed on a basic level. Good job there.

God is Love 1 John 4:8.



So there. :p

So you believe people can't be rehabilitated? So we should just lock up everyone who breaks a crime and not let them go? Punishment exists for a lot of reasons not just justice. Punishment exists as a deterent. Punishment exists to protect the rest of society from the individuals who break the rules. Punishment exists as a way to remove and rehabilitate the offenders. Saying punishment is for justice is a gross oversimplification of the issue.

God gives us our entire lives to change our ways, what else do you want. Of course, what you want is for hell to be certianly provable, and thus to scare people away from it. But that means people going to God through fear, not love.


These books were also chosen by a group of men who could not even decide which version of Christianity was right. For all you know these people could have just picked the verisons that supported their view or even worse chosen wrong.

So you cant attack the actuall writings, so you attack the selection. Not a good tatic, back stepping.


Actually I think that most muslims believe Allah wrote the Koran through Mohammed.

Precisely. One man (Mohammad) writing in a cave on his own, where he claimed to have visions of God. There is no corrberation.


Its much like the concept of the gospel's being the word of god through whoever wrote them. Of course your claim is no more valid then theirs because how can you prove that god spoke through people.


No, because unlike Mohammad, Jesus's existance and whether or not he did what he did can be examined, questioned and analysised. However we cant do the same for what Mohammad claimed to have seen/heard.

No.
Not by christian logic.
Those people are in hell, because they had not accepted Jesus as thier personal saviour.

Maybe I was taught in an odd way, but I was taught that good people don't go to Hell no matter. Limbo, yes, to be judged - but not Hell. Hell is for evil.

Maybe I was taught in an odd way, but I was taught that good people don't go to Hell no matter. Limbo, yes, to be judged - but not Hell. Hell is for evil.

Non Christians, all sorts, go to hades when they die. This isnt hell, its a place for the dead to wait. Christians go to heaven. When the end comes, non Christians will be judged and go to hell. Hell is not "one size fits all" there are degrees of nastyness to it but they will still be in hell

Well, if you're a religious Islamic militant in your training camp in Kashmir, and your whole village has been flattened, and some of your family and friends are buried alive under rubble so heavy that you can't lift any of it, and the skies open up the next day and start with torrential rain and hailstorms, you might think that God was bending you over a log and letting you have it without a reacharound.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051011/D8D5SRTO4.html

The difference is prisoners are not sent there for eternity ... they have a set length of stay
God leaves you locked up for eternity

This is one area where my faith differs from most Christians.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment

Doctrine and Covenents, Section 19, Verses 4-12.
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/19/4-12#4

From this we can understand that eventually the souls in hell will be delivered, though they must suffer for their disobedience, and they shall not inherit glory like unto those who kept his commandments.

The only souls that will never be delivered are Lucifer's "third of the hosts of heaven" (http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/29/36#36) who rebelled against God in the existence previous to this one, when we dwelt in his presence. God, to my knowledge, has never revealed unto man what the final fate of those souls shall be.

God gives us our entire lives to change our ways, what else do you want. Of course, what you want is for hell to be certianly provable, and thus to scare people away from it. But that means people going to God through fear, not love.
I don't want to go to hell thats what I want. The whole concept seems contradictory to what a loving caring all powerful god would create/allow his creations to go to.



So you cant attack the actuall writings, so you attack the selection. Not a good tatic, back stepping.
This is funny comming from the guy who says the Koran is not viable since only one person wrote it. So you question the validity of a book by the writter not the writtings. When I question the validity of a book based on how it was put together I'm back stepping? The bible is supposed to be the word of god but the "word of god" was put togehter by a bunch of failible people who were arguing over which version of christianity was right.



Precisely. One man (Mohammad) writing in a cave on his own, where he claimed to have visions of God. There is no corrberation.
So 4 men are better then 1? If Jesus was the son of god surely there would be more then just 4 men writting about him. I mean in terms of verifiying a event based on multiple accounts 4 men is nothing special.



No, because unlike Mohammad, Jesus's existance and whether or not he did what he did can be examined, questioned and analysised. However we cant do the same for what Mohammad claimed to have seen/heard.
This is news to me. Anyone else know how Jesus' existance can be analyised outside the bible? The only place you can look to analize Jesus' life is from the bible which is only one book. If we can examine Jesus' existance from 1 book then the Koran is also enough to examine Mohammed's existance.