NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: Don't lump all US Southerners into the "uneducated red-neck" category. This economically based distribution of students has demonstrated great progress in North Carolina.


As Test Scores Jump,
Raleigh Credits Integration by Income (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/education/25raleigh.html?th&emc=th)

By ALAN FINDER
Published: September 25, 2005

RALEIGH, N.C. - Over the last decade, black and Hispanic students here in Wake County have made such dramatic strides in standardized reading and math tests that it has caught the attention of education experts around the country.

The main reason for the students' dramatic improvement, say officials and parents in the county, which includes Raleigh and its sprawling suburbs, is that the district has made a concerted effort to integrate the schools economically.

Since 2000, school officials have used income as a prime factor in assigning students to schools, with the goal of limiting the proportion of low-income students in any school to no more than 40 percent.

The effort is the most ambitious in the country to create economically diverse public schools, and it is the most successful, according to several independent experts. La Crosse, Wis.; St. Lucie County, Fla.; San Francisco; Cambridge, Mass.; and Charlotte-Mecklenburg, N.C., have adopted economic integration plans.

In Wake County, only 40 percent of black students in grades three through eight scored at grade level on state tests a decade ago. Last spring, 80 percent did. Hispanic students have made similar strides. Overall, 91 percent of students in those grades scored at grade level in the spring, up from 79 percent 10 years ago.

School officials here have tried many tactics to improve student performance. Teachers get bonuses when their schools make significant progress in standardized tests, and the district uses sophisticated data gathering to identify, and respond to, students' weaknesses.

Some of the strategies used in Wake County could be replicated across the country, the experts said, but they also cautioned that unusual circumstances have helped make the politically delicate task of economic integration possible here.

The school district is countywide, which makes it far easier to combine students from the city and suburbs. The county has a 30-year history of busing students for racial integration, and many parents and students are accustomed to long bus rides to distant schools. The local economy is robust, and the district is growing rapidly. And corporate leaders and newspaper editorial pages here have firmly supported economic diversity in the schools.

Some experts said the academic results in Wake County were particularly significant because they bolstered research that showed low-income students did best when they attended middle-class schools.

"Low-income students who have an opportunity to go to middle-class schools are surrounded by peers who have bigger dreams and who are more academically engaged," said Richard D. Kahlenberg, a senior fellow at the Century Foundation who has written about economic integration in schools. "They are surrounded by parents who are more likely to be active in the school. And they are taught by teachers who more likely are highly qualified than the teachers in low-income schools."

To achieve a balance of low- and middle-income children in every school, the Wake County school district encourages and sometimes requires students to attend schools far from home. Suburban students are drawn to magnet schools in the city. Low-income children from the city are bused to middle-class schools in the suburbs.

Some parents chafe at the length of their children's bus rides or at what they see as social engineering. But the test results are hard to dispute, proponents of economic integration say, as is the broad appeal of the school district, which has been growing by 5,000 students a year.

"What I say to parents is, 'Here is what you should hold me accountable for: at the end of that bus ride, are we providing a quality education for your child?' " Bill McNeal, the school superintendent, said.

Asked how parents respond, Mr. McNeal said, "They are coming back, and they are bringing their friends."

Not everyone supports the strategy. Some parents deeply oppose mandatory assignments to schools. Every winter, the district, using a complicated formula, develops a list of students who will be reassigned to new schools for the following academic year, and nearly every year some parents object vehemently.

[ This article is two pages long. To read the rest of the article go here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/education/25raleigh.html?th&emc=th). ]

or maybe they just made the tests easier?

or maybe they just made the tests easier?
Nope. I checked and they didn't, so it's kewl. :p

Finally, some one gets it: better funded schools have better teachers, better classes, and better supplies, which all leads to better test scores and learning. The majority of this comes from parents who can afford to put more money into the school and school district. The obvious answer was too force them to evenly split the people with and without money, though good luck getting anyone but North Carolina to do this.

Interesting....

I'd wish people start doing more things like this instead of creating ghettos to keep the poor poorer.

I dig it. If this were in place nationally, there would be little or no need for affirmative action. While affirmative action is flawed, it would be disastrous to get rid of it without something similar to what is mentioned in the article taking it's place.

Cut Medicare to nothing. (265 billion gone), and fund every single cent of it into schools. Problem solved.

Standardised testing. I don't believe in it. Mostly because I sucked at them (I still shudder to think about the inane math test we got that had every single problem tied to the then newly constructed Öresund bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresund_Bridge) and made no bloody sense) and still had a 20.0 GPA (out of 20.0). Not to toot my own horn or anything. :\

So, umm, good on them for doing better than I did at these wretched things anyway.

Cut Medicare to nothing. (265 billion gone), and fund every single cent of it into schools. Problem solved.
Even the best federally funded government schools with little parental support are crap compared to those with middle - upper class parents throwing every dime into the school.

It is a known fact that "gated community" schools far outclass "ghetto" schools.

I'd wish people start doing more things like this instead of creating ghettos to keep the poor poorer.
It's a struggle against a dark aspect of human nature. I will never forget hearing a neighbor where we once lived say, of another neighbor who had developed cancer, "I don't let the children go over there anymore." When asked why, she replied, "Well, you wouldn't want your children exposed to that, would you?" As though simply being around the afflicted man would somehow expose the children to something contagious.

I also remember from my own days of unemployment many years ago, how some people avoided me, perhaps fearing that unemployment was also somehow "catching."

We tend to hang with those we consider to be "people like me." If you're not poor, and especially if you've never been poor, you tend to pretend they don't exist. They remind us that life is often capricious and that we too could one day become "poor." And "out of sight, out of mind."

Over the last decade, black and Hispanic students here in Wake County have made such dramatic strides in standardized reading and math tests ...

Perhaps the questions asked re: achievement in learning are invalid. I think that the USA places too much emphasis on the tint of one's skin and too little emphasis on other factors that cause poor educational achievement. These other factors range from the

a) political (politicians curying favor with the most affluential at the expense of the poor to ideological issues that deprive poor school children of pre-school programs that have proven their effectiveness);

b) socio-economic (consigning the poor to 'ghettos' and continuing to use a system of taxation that has proven a failure in supporting schools in poor districts, i. e. property taxes; placing the onus of bussing on the poor whose children must leave their neighborhoods to go to 'better (white) schools', etc.);

c) religious / philosophical (the poor are poor because they don't want to work - thus, their plight is their own fault and they should not be helped);

d) linguistic (the poor fit between the pronunciation and the spelling of English makes learning to read and write all the more arduous; the nature of English makes the learning of adult vocabulary difficult).

I could continue, but each of these issues consigns many children to the bottom rungs of the social ladder. If even some of these were to become part of the discussion, American children would be far better off.

Perhaps the questions asked re: achievement in learning are invalid. I think that the USA places too much emphasis on the tint of one's skin and too little emphasis on other factors that cause poor educational achievement. These other factors range from the

a) political (politicians curying favor with the most affluential at the expense of the poor to ideological issues that deprive poor school children of pre-school programs that have proven their effectiveness);

b) socio-economic (consigning the poor to 'ghettos' and continuing to use a system of taxation that has proven a failure in supporting schools in poor districts, i. e. property taxes; placing the onus of bussing on the poor whose children must leave their neighborhoods to go to 'better (white) schools', etc.);

c) religious / philosophical (the poor are poor because they don't want to work - thus, their plight is their own fault and they should not be helped);

d) linguistic (the poor fit between the pronunciation and the spelling of English makes learning to read and write all the more arduous; the nature of English makes the learning of adult vocabulary difficult).

I could continue, but each of these issues consigns many children to the bottom rungs of the social ladder. If even some of these were to become part of the discussion, American children would be far better off.
I agree, and it's entirely possible that most, if not all, are being looked at somewhere. Lord knows, there seem to be a host of "eduction-related institutions" which should already be doing this. Hopefully, the current Administration has appointed someone who actually has the best interests of children at heart, although their track record for appointees sucks. :(

Cut Medicare to nothing. (265 billion gone), and fund every single cent of it into schools. Problem solved.

And, while we're at it, let's just send all the poor people to concentration camps.

On a side note, on September 25, 1957, with 300 United States Army troops standing guard, nine black children were escorted to Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, days after unruly white crowds had forced them to withdraw.

Cut Medicare to nothing. (265 billion gone), and fund every single cent of it into schools. Problem solved.

Money alone will not cure the problem.

And, while we're at it, let's just send all the poor people to concentration camps.
Pretty damned close to what we have right now, I would think. :(

Pretty damned close to what we have right now, I would think. :(

Yeah, ghettos aren't much different... You should see the Heights in Houston. Holy fuck, that place is awful.

Money alone will not cure the problem.
Exactly. Money will help greatly, where and when needed, but there has to be a paradigm shift in the attitudes of many, many heads of household.

And, while we're at it, let's just send all the poor people to concentration camps.

It's Serapindal. Don't give his fascism ideas.

Yeah, ghettos aren't much different... You should see the Heights in Houston. Holy fuck, that place is awful.
And, to coin a phrase, "awful begets awful."

It looks like North Carolina has found something that works. The major obstacle to other school districts in implementing a similar program is the economic diversity of the school district. If there is no or little economic diversity within the school district, which is the case in many large metropolitan cities, you cannot implement a program like this. The only solution to the problem in areas like that would be to have county or state wide school districts. I doubt that would or could happen, as people do not want to give up local control of the schools.

It looks like North Carolina has found something that works. The major obstacle to other school districts in implementing a similar program is the economic diversity of the school district. If there is no or little economic diversity within the school district, which is the case in many large metropolitan cities, you cannot implement a program like this. The only solution to the problem in areas like that would be to have county or state wide school districts. I doubt that would or could happen, as people do not want to give up local control of the schools.
And rightly so. You can get away with taking money out of people's pockets, use the "eminent domain" laws to take their homes, even tell some of them they can't marry those they care deeply about, but when you do things that they see as adversely impacting their children, you're in for a major fight.

There's a solution in there somewhere, though, and it simply remains for some bright person to find it.

Exactly. Money will help greatly, where and when needed, but there has to be a paradigm shift in the attitudes of many, many heads of household.

And many educators as well. True reform is needed in education and that means taking a hard look at what we are doing not only in the classrooms but also in what administers are doing as well. We need to be able to reward good teachers and get rid of the incompetent. We need a way for teachers to advance and remain in the classroom not just advance to administration. We need to allow teachers to implement new teaching methods that are proven to work and get rid of the "we have always done it this way" mentality of other educators and administrators.
I could go on, but I am not about to write a dissertation or journal article.

And many educators as well. True reform is needed in education and that means taking a hard look at what we are doing not only in the classrooms but also in what administers are doing as well. We need to be able to reward good teachers and get rid of the incompetent. We need a way for teachers to advance and remain in the classroom not just advance to administration. We need to allow teachers to implement new teaching methods that are proven to work and get rid of the "we have always done it this way" mentality of other educators and administrators.
I could go on, but I am not about to write a dissertation or journal article.
I suggest that the place to begin is at the teachers' colleges. Threaten to withold money if they don't keep the standards high. Closely followed by paying the teachers with proven track records for motivating students from all walks of life salaries equivalent to those paid to middle level managers in major corporations.

I suggest that the place to begin is at the teachers' colleges. Threaten to withold money if they don't keep the standards high. Closely followed by paying the teachers with proven track records for motivating students from all walks of life salaries equivalent to those paid to middle level managers in major corporations.
Teachers really do need to be paid more so that the schools can compete against the law firms and the hospitals to draw the best of the college students.

I suggest that the place to begin is at the teachers' colleges. Threaten to withold money if they don't keep the standards high. Closely followed by paying the teachers with proven track records for motivating students from all walks of life salaries equivalent to those paid to middle level managers in major corporations.

Or at least pay the teachers with the proven track record the same salary as school administrators. Now all we have to do is convince the teachers unions that some teachers should be paid more than others based on performance and not tenure or longevity. Unfortunately, the teachers unions are one of the biggest obstacles to real reform.

Finally, some one gets it: better funded schools have better teachers, better classes, and better supplies, which all leads to better test scores and learning. The majority of this comes from parents who can afford to put more money into the school and school district. The obvious answer was too force them to evenly split the people with and without money, though good luck getting anyone but North Carolina to do this.
Um, no. They don't split the money among the schools. Rather they move the students. The lower class kids that had middle class kids move into their schools are doing better as well which they wouldn't if it were about funding. It's about attitude.

Or at least pay the teachers with the proven track record the same salary as school administrators. Now all we have to do is convince the teachers unions that some teachers should be paid more than others based on performance and not tenure or longevity. Unfortunately, the teachers unions are one of the biggest obstacles to real reform.
I tend to agree with this, although I suspect that without the teachers' unions, their pay would be considerably lower than it is now.

Um, no. They don't split the money among the schools. Rather they move the students. The lower class kids that had middle class kids move into their schools are doing better as well which they wouldn't if it were about funding. It's about attitude.
Giving badly needed funding to the lower preforming schools by adding middle class children to the mix.

Um, no. They don't split the money among the schools. Rather they move the students. The lower class kids that had middle class kids move into their schools are doing better as well which they wouldn't if it were about funding. It's about attitude.
I suspect you are correct about this to a very significant degree.

One of the "dirty little secrets" of the racial divide is the intense peer pressure among African American students to not be "too white," which often translates into "don't fall into the trap of becoming a good student." :(

Giving badly needed funding to the lower preforming schools by adding middle class children to the mix.
Unless, of course, the property taxes are still allocated regionally for the schools and don't move with the students. I would assume this is the case because figuring how much money to move to which school would be a nightmare.

Unless, of course, the property taxes are still allocated regionally for the schools and don't move with the students. I would assume this is the case because figuring how much money to move to which school would be a nightmare.
Parental associations have immense fundraising power. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to do though, as I know my school (alternative charter based) does that.

Unless, of course, the property taxes are still allocated regionally for the schools and don't move with the students. I would assume this is the case because figuring how much money to move to which school would be a nightmare.

The article said that there was a single very large school district in which case one would assume all the schools were funded equally by the district. If that is the case, then the results cab be attributed more toward attitude and not funding.

I suspect you are correct about this to a very significant degree.

One of the "dirty little secrets" of the racial divide is the intense peer pressure among African American students to not be "too white," which often translates into "don't fall into the trap of becoming a good student." :(

God I hate that little bit. I wonder why noone mentions culture hardly ever. As surely there are some aspects of culture that don't fall under socio-economic. Or do I have to go look that term up again?

The big problem with using standardized tests and giving teachers bonuses when their students do well on these standardized tests is that you end up with teachers teaching the tests rather than the subject matter.

At last, somebody is getting it. Race is not the most important factor in determining success; income is. This is obscured by the fact that, for historical reasons, race and income are partially correllated in the US - in simple language, a much higher percentage of blacks are poor than are whites. However, poor white children in underfunded schools do poorly as well.

There are always exceptions, of course - one can point to Condoleeza Rice, the daughter of a poor black farm family who, through brains and sheer effort, overcame her past and rose to a very high level. But people like that are the exception regardless of race. We need to level the playing field so that more poor people (again, regardless of race) have a chance to break out of poverty and move into the middle class. Not all will make it, but we should do what we can for those who have a chance.

I was born in Charlotte and have lived in North Carolina my whole life. North Carolina has always had some good schools, and has always had some pretty abysmal ones as well. Until recently, the bad ones outnumbered the good ones by a large factor, to the point that NC usually scored around 48th out of all 50 states in most school rankings. (But we beat Mississippi! And South Carolina!) We've been moving up in the rankings fairly steadily over the last 30 years, though - we usually place around the middle of the pack now, and continue to improve. This should benefit the entire state in the long run.

I suspect you are correct about this to a very significant degree.

One of the "dirty little secrets" of the racial divide is the intense peer pressure among African American students to not be "too white," which often translates into "don't fall into the trap of becoming a good student." :(
And we have degenerated from pointing out the problems with economic differences when applied to the school system into racist insinuations and generalizations.

And we have degenerated from pointing out the problems with economic differences when applied to the school system into racist insinuations and generalizations.
The problems with economic differences doesn't stem primarily from school funding at all. The problem stems from the childrens and parents attitudes towards school and how well their kid does.

One of the "dirty little secrets" of the racial divide is the intense peer pressure among African American students to not be "too white," which often translates into "don't fall into the trap of becoming a good student." :(

This actually cuts across the racial divide. I have a (white) friend who grew up in a trailer park in the small community of Lizard Lick, NC. (Yes, it's really named that. It's an unincorporated community on US Highway 64 east of Knightdale.) Unlike most of his childhood peers (and the rest of his family), he managed to work his way out of the trailer park, get an associate degree in electronics from a community college, and get a good job as a computer technician.

And now his family won't have anything to do with him. His own mother rather scornfully asked him "Are you just too damned good to live in a trailer now?" His family, rather than celebrating his success, resented him for it and condemned him. He'd committed a terrible sin: He'd gotten "too big for his britches".

It's a sad thing, and to me it's utterly inexplicable. And while it probably happens more often among blacks, it's not limited to them.

OK so now its all southies that are red necks - one :D
Mwahahahaha

God I hate that little bit. I wonder why noone mentions culture hardly ever. As surely there are some aspects of culture that don't fall under socio-economic. Or do I have to go look that term up again?
Um ... I suspect that "socio-economic" about covers it.

Um ... I suspect that "socio-economic" about covers it.

Right-0 then.

This actually cuts across the racial divide. I have a (white) friend who grew up in a trailer park in the small community of Lizard Lick, NC. (Yes, it's really named that. It's an unincorporated community on US Highway 64 east of Knightdale.) Unlike most of his childhood peers (and the rest of his family), he managed to work his way out of the trailer park, get an associate degree in electronics from a community college, and get a good job as a computer technician.

And now his family won't have anything to do with him. His own mother rather scornfully asked him "Are you just too damned good to live in a trailer now?" His family, rather than celebrating his success, resented him for it and condemned him. He'd committed a terrible sin: He'd gotten "too big for his britches".

It's a sad thing, and to me it's utterly inexplicable. And while it probably happens more often among blacks, it's not limited to them.
True. There's often great pressure to conform to your family/community/class/etc. standards, especially if the family or whatever somehow ties a social norm to religion. Trust me on this one, I know! :(

BTW ... I know where Lizard Lick is. :D