NationStates Jolt Archive

Suddenly, the evacuation of New Orleans doesn't look so bad by comparison. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9389157/)

GALVESTON, Texas - Hundreds of thousands of people across the Houston metropolitan area struggled to make their way inland in a bumper-to-bumper exodus Thursday as Hurricane Rita closed in on the nation's fourth-largest city with winds howling at 140 mph.

Drivers ran out of gas in 14-hour traffic jams or looked in vain for a place to stay as hotels hundreds of miles away from the coast filled up.

An estimated 1.8 million residents or more in Texas and Louisiana were under orders to evacuate to avoid a deadly repeat of Katrina.

Now, we're talking about an evacuation of about 4 times the number of people in New Orleans, but we're also talking about a place that has more roadways to deal with that kind of traffic.

Most importantly--this thread is not meant to cast blame or aspersions toward any politician or party. It is meant to serve as a place to talk about issues like urban planning, and to note that the job for which Mayor Nagin and Givernor Blanco have been vilified isn't so easy to handle after all.

Dammit man, I hope the Apollo rocket isn't affected. Or at least won't be destroyed. I mean, I was close enough to touch it. Though it wasn't in my best interest to do so.

Drivers ran out of gas in 14-hour traffic jams or looked in vain for a place to stay as hotels hundreds of miles away from the coast filled up.
Perhaps they should have turned their engines off... :rolleyes:

I seriously think this is going to be bad, similar to Katrina. Galveston is gonna be flattened/submerged, and the only good thing is that they are trying harder this time to get everyone out.

At least they're making people leave this time around. The space center at Houston is projected to be underwater with a Category Two storm. I hope it can handle a cat 4.

From what I'm reading--and I still have relatives in the area so I'm a bit concerned--a big part of the problem is urban sprawl. Too many little suburbias, each with their own on and off ramps, which makes it difficult to turn both sides of the interstate into one-way exits. Takes a lot of time and manpower.

Add to it that apparently a lot of people from the non-mandatory evacuation areas are gumming up the works and you've got potential for a real disaster. I hope those people on the roadways right now can get clear before this storm comes ashore. You don't want to be in a car during 75 mph winds--fuck 150 mph winds.

Being the fourth largest city in America, Houston is almost guranteed to have the necessary infrastructure to move people out. It is a wonder why New Orleans even got the Lake Ponchatrain bridge.
But Houston, perhaps moreso than New Orleans, is a big car town. Many more people may get out, but not without trouble. I've heard that some cars have run outta gas sitting in traffic jams.

I've heard that some cars have run outta gas sitting in traffic jams.
Well perhaps we're lucky and all the SUV owners will be naturally selected for..ahem...elimination.
Evolution at work.

Okay they've explained this several times on the radio in great detail so I have some answers for that- and I am useing my own experience, not only as a native, but having been a cabbie, and knowing the highways and byways in depth.

You have to look at the geography and highways systems in the area. For Galveston, I-45 dead ends on the island. The causeway is the only way off the island, and I 45 is the only highway running from that area. Once you get away from the coast, about 50 miles inland you have other alternatives, but not many. Then you run into Houston-
people do not realize how large Houston is - it is the most populated city in the state, and the largest in a multi state region in area covered .

From Houston you have only a few choices - east back into the coast ( the Texas coast curves here and going east takes you to Baytown, Beaumont and lol the coast..), south -back into the coast - or west or north...

Houston is a urban area of more than four million people, and you have two million people from the coastal area south and south east trying to get through there.

The contra flow lane idea is something that is very man power intensive to put into place, and you can not do it until the time needed to put barriers in place has gone by...and thats after you give people a chance to go home to get the rest of their family and get out.

They got the man power they needed, and began setting it up as soon as they could - but they have on I-45 over 80 miles to seal off, and thats just north of Houston. They have to empty the freeway of oncoming traffic, and then barricade ALL entry ramps, and post watchers every so often to watch for the people who will take 'unauthorized' entry on to the road way ( polite words for a country habit of just taking their 4 wheel drive vehicle over the low berm/ grass divider and getting on to the freeway where ever they happen to be entry ramp be damned )

Then you have the area south of Houston to seal off, and on I-10...the job is just over whelming.

Yesa I know how bad it is - it took my housemate 5 hours to get home Wed. night- a drive that normally takes an hour. I tried to go into work to day, took an hour to get a quarter of the way there.

but when the roads are filled to their capacity, what do you expect?

You are moving over three million people and their belongings over a set of highways that are NOT designed to have that much traffic.

We've never evvacced like we are doing now, but the fact that the people are going, even if it is damned slow, is a testament to our determination and our emergency planning..

I don't care what the hell they show on tv, - you have accidents, vehicles failing/ running out of gas, and people frightened and driving slowly or recklessly- and this makes driving a nightmare.

update:

They have gotten the contra flow lanes open, and the lines are moving for I-45, and they have opened I-10's as well. Both of these highways are under construction in stretches so that is not helping.

They got I-45 contraflow created and opened in less than eight hours, which considering what had to be done is amazing.

They could not do 290 at all given that this is the highway that most of the relief effort will be moving in on.

and getting I-10 done took longer, but they had more to over come on this highway, and I have heard reports of some pretty bad accidents tangling things up out there as well.

This is not in any way a result of ineptness in our evacc plan, but the sheer scale and number of people trying to evacuate from an area that is in NO WAY user friendly for evaccuation.

Things didn't look right last night on the news. The evacuating traffic was only using the normal outbound lanes. My experience from Florida was that most divided highways were converted to outbound only on all lanes. Wonder why that isn't done in Houston?

Must be because ... no, I won't go there.

The difficulties evacuating are being used as an excuse to stay by two of my friends. Both are college educated, upper middle class and own homes and dogs. One of the women is a professor; her husband holds a Masters degree, too. The other woman? Owns a very successful business; she took a fifteen year mortgage rather than a 30 and just paid cash for a 2005 BMW.

We are not talking about poor, uneducated people. We are talking about people with advanced graduate degrees, with responsible jobs, one of whom hosted another friend directly after Katrina. (A mutual friend evacuated from NOLA to Houston and stayed with professor friend for three days while searching for an extended stay hotel for herself and her family.)

i've begged and begged and begged. First they were staying because "Everyone's overreacting. It won't be that bad." :headbang: Then they were staying because "The storm is going to go East to NOLA." Now they're staying because "We can't get out. We don't have gas and can't get it. The expressways are overloaded. We're going to stay and ride it out."

How can people so learned not learn???

Im not leaving because the power rnagers shall destroy the evil rita they alreay hurt her! GO GO POWER RANGERS! :headbang: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :

I can't wait for the first thread where someone tells me how stupid I am for living in Houston and how much I deserve my home destroyed like so many did for the people of New Orleans.

I believe that should entitle me to a "Get out of Ban Free" card from the mods.

I can't wait for the first thread where someone tells me how stupid I am for living in Houston and how much I deserve my home destroyed like so many did for the people of New Orleans.

I believe that should entitle me to a "Get out of Ban Free" card from the mods.
I guarantee you that you'll never hear it from me. I was born in Houston, raised near New Orleans and live in Fort Lauderdale now. :D

How about reading my post above, Myrmidonisia - They do have the contra flows on both I-45 and I -10 open and running.

But it's not 100's of thousands, it's freaking millions- roughly three million people!.

Keruvalia, they can tell it to me too then.

and Geecka, there are many reasons to be staying - Houston is NOT under mandatory evac, and Houston is not in a below sea level bowl. We are 60 miles from the coast, and while there are areas along the ship channel that will see storm surge, those areas are mostly industrial, and have been evacced.

I have many reasons for staying but those you listed for your friends are the least of mine.

Yep ... New Orleans may be where part of my roots are and so much of my family is, but Houston is my home. I ain't leavin' it.

Maybe I'm stupid, fine. I love H-town and I'm in it until death do we part!

Things didn't look right last night on the news. The evacuating traffic was only using the normal outbound lanes. My experience from Florida was that most divided highways were converted to outbound only on all lanes. Wonder why that isn't done in Houston?

Must be because ... no, I won't go there.

Actually they have. I-45 was like that when I drove over it earlier today. That was something I had never heard of, or even really thought about.
And no dont go there.

I can't wait for the first thread where someone tells me how stupid I am for living in Houston and how much I deserve my home destroyed like so many did for the people of New Orleans.

I believe that should entitle me to a "Get out of Ban Free" card from the mods.
I havn't read the entire thread yet but just to say it since you have called for it!

You are an idiot for living so close to the coast and even in the evil Texas. You are just asking for the destruction of your home, yada yada yada!

LOL! I personally love Texas and my wife and I have agreed that if we ever leave Alberta it will be to move to Texas! My best to you and I hope you come thru as unscathed as possible! Keep in touch as long as possible!

God bless you and the rest of Texas!

How about reading my post above, Myrmidonisia - They do have the contra flows on both I-45 and I -10 open and running.

But it's not 100's of thousands, it's freaking millions- roughly three million people!.

Keruvalia, they can tell it to me too then.

and Geecka, there are many reasons to be staying - Houston is NOT under mandatory evac, and Houston is not in a below sea level bowl. We are 60 miles from the coast, and while there are areas along the ship channel that will see storm surge, those areas are mostly industrial, and have been evacced.

I have many reasons for staying but those you listed for your friends are the least of mine.
Give me a break. I was typing while you were posting. I'm not ignorant of the ways of this forum. That being said, I was corrected some time later, as well.


But thanks for your interest.

On the news last night the super-imposed the hurricane over the Bristish Isles to give us Brits some concept of scale. (Mainland Britain could fit inside it.)

Geecka, there are many reasons to be staying - Houston is NOT under mandatory evac, and Houston is not in a below sea level bowl.

Then I am mistaken. I'd read on CNN at 2:30 yesterday that the entire metropolitan area (of Houston) was on mandatory evacuation. Still haven't we learned "Better safe than sorry?" Will we never learn that?

My prayers are with all of you.

Apparantly the evacuations are going rather badly:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/23/rita/index.html

The cars are stuck and low on gas, and now a bus is actually on fire.

For a military unit that has practiced deployment, and is packed and ready for an alert, it takes 18 hours from the initial notification by the President (we're talking a unit like a battalion within the 101st or 82nd), to the time that the battalion (around 1500 men) is wheels up and on the way.

A division like the 101st can move the entire division (9 battalions) this way, one battalion every 18 hours. That's with all the military airlift capacity (the US only owns 32 C-5 aircraft) available. And using trained troops who have practiced this logistical exercise over and over and over again. It is also important to note that soldiers follow orders, while civilians are free to disobey. Packaging and transport in the military is standardized, and there are people in place whose job it is to pack, schedule, and handle cargo and people.

To try to move over a million civilians in whatever car, bus, truck, or plane they can get - that's a logistical nightmare. Civilians won't follow orders. They won't obey a schedule. They drive different vehicles and won't say where their destination is (and won't accept being told, either). Unlike soldiers, they don't look out for each other. They've never practiced this maneuver before. Some people are only bringing the clothes on their back, and others are bringing everything they can, including the dog (while leaving their invalid neighbor to die).

To blame any level of government, from the individual city, to the President, for any logistical problems that crop up in such a mass evacuation shows an incredible level of ignorance of what exactly is involved in moving people and their belongings from one spot on the map to another. It's hard enough for the military to do so - it's nearly impossible for civilians to do it without major, major screwups.

and now a bus is actually on fire.

This is heartbreaking. I got to work and had a "Breaking News Alert." Twenty minutes later, I'm still frozen and reading CNN. I can't actually move onto working...

http://treets.thepittsburghchannel.com/svc/lnk.cfm?l=60154371&t=1

To blame any level of government, from the individual city, to the President, for any logistical problems that crop up in such a mass evacuation shows an incredible level of ignorance of what exactly is involved in moving people and their belongings from one spot on the map to another. It's hard enough for the military to do so - it's nearly impossible for civilians to do it without major, major screwups.

Voice of Reason, welcome to the discussion.

As a native Houstonian that has been glued to the TV and internet for the past 48 hours, and been out in the traffic, the evacuation, while not perfect, has gone remarkably well.

1. Area: the mandatory evacuation areas only include the Pasadena area of Houston proper, as some southern areas of the city, including Clear Lake, Santa Fe, and the entire Galveston area. Most of the metropolitan area is NOT under mandatory evac, and never has. Not that CNN could EVER be wrong, right? Understand that Houston is NOT on the coast. Houston became the city it did after Galveston was flattened in 1900. It was put where it was so it would not be flattened in the event of a hurricane.

2. The only problems with the evacuation have been fuel shortages, people running out of gas. The state has sent 200,000 gallons of fuel to the area as of this morning. They have also sent multiple buses to get people who have run out of gas off the road and into the nearest shelter.

3. I45 became one way on both sides yesterday @ 6pm, all the way to Buffalo, TX, which is more than halfway to Dallas. Traffic is backed up most of the way to Dallas, as well as on I10 most of the way to San Antonio. Sorry folks, there ain't nothing anybody can do about that when 4 million people decide to hit the roads at the same time. Urban sprawl has nothing to do with it.

4. The city leadership has been fantastic. Anybody who wants info on anything can get it easily, as the city leadership has kept the public informed, provide phone numbers, etc.

5. The bus incident is tragic, but has nothing to do with bad planning by city or state leadership.

6. Note that the first evacuations started Tuesday evening, a full 72-84 hours before the hurricane is supposed to strike - unlike some other cities . . .

Knock off criticisms of Houston evacuation, folks. Ask just about anybody who lives here and they'll say how proud they are of their leadership.

Rant over. :mad:

Waves Madly at Selgin, I'm a native Houstonian too, and yeah I'm flag waving as much as you are, and glued to the radio and tv as well. I think that the repsonse - LOCAL response - hase been fantastic

LOL, as a resident I will critise- they made one mistake that I know of- and they have publicly admitted the mistake.

The plan called for them to have fuel trucks prepositioned along the evac route, but due to problems they did not get out to their assigned points by the time specified.

( yes they too got stuck in traffic, should have left earlier LOL ) but the fuel bowsers have gotten to the places they are supposed to be and have, for the last couple of hours, been handing out free fuel to people in the evacuation. I also understand they are handing out bottled water as well ( something that was not originally a part of the plan, but is a good thought )

The various politicians- city and county, county judges ( county judges in Texas have huge amounts of power), the local emergency management are not hiding- they are there in front of the news folks and are keeping a steady stream of reports coming. And they are working their butts off.

Given the enormity of moving nearly four million people either north or west with limited roadways, limited gasoline, etc...

As noted above by Geeca -At roughly 6 amthere was terrible happening - in Wilmer, just south of Dallas, a private bus carrying 43 residents of a private nursing home in Bellaire - the bus broke down, the driver saw sparks coming from the brakes, pulled over/ stopped, but the sparks kept coming ( just a seconds worth, before any action/ reaction could take place by the driver, or passengers) and the oxygen bottles/ oxygen generators being used by some of the passengers caught fire/ exploded.

24 people have died, while the others managed to either get out or were pulled out by motorists from near by vehicles.

This is just terrible!

and Sierra BTHP - thank you for your very applicable example.

I can't wait for the first thread where someone tells me how stupid I am for living in Houston and how much I deserve my home destroyed like so many did for the people of New Orleans.

I believe that should entitle me to a "Get out of Ban Free" card from the mods.

If ARF-COM hadn't been banned, he might very well have said it. Wasn't he the one that wanted NO nuked after all?

The bus fire is simply a tragic accident. It was full of elderly people from a nursing home, many of whom were on oxygen. If you know anything about oxygen tanks, you know how dangerous they are in a fire.

For those of you who don't know: Most fires on this planet are actually oxygen-starved, due to the simple fact that most of the atmosphere is noncombustible nitrogen. Add even a little extra oxygen, and combustion is much more rapid - the fire burns faster and hotter.

So basically, you had a bus full of mobility-impaired people, with extra oxygen to fuel the fire... I shudder to think of it.

1. Area: the mandatory evacuation areas only include the Pasadena area of Houston proper, as some southern areas of the city, including Clear Lake, Santa Fe, and the entire Galveston area. Most of the metropolitan area is NOT under mandatory evac, and never has. Not that CNN could EVER be wrong, right? Understand that Houston is NOT on the coast. Houston became the city it did after Galveston was flattened in 1900. It was put where it was so it would not be flattened in the event of a hurricane.


I admitted to being mistaken. What else did you want me to do???

I admitted to being mistaken. What else did you want me to do???
Sorry, didn't see that post. I'm a little on edge ...