NationStates Jolt Archive


An Essay On True Democracy (Direct Democracy)

Chomskyrion
22-09-2005, 22:03
(Here is the essay that I said I would write on direct democracy, rebutting all modern criticisms and further establishing it.)

It is a shame that America was influenced more by Locke than Rousseau. Because essentially it has made our country a second-rate democracy, if you could even call it "democracy," which I do not. But, of course, it was inevitable, because what should we expect? That the aristocratic founding fathers would advocate a philosophy which said they had no intrinsic qualities that made them special? That the average wheat farmer is just as qualified to govern as they? Of course not. Even if it were true, it is something that they could never accept.

First of all, I must explain that I will not refer to the American republic as a "representative democracy." The latter term was not used until the early 20th century. Before then, it was well-established that we are not a democracy, but a republic. The founding fathers rejected democracy, on the basis that people are not intelligent enough to rule themselves and that, somewhat akin to Plato's Republic, they need philosopher kings to rule over them. Democracy's origins in Athens was direct democracy. Our historical government documents (and the Pledge of Allegiance) mention "republic," and not "democracy." Furthermore, even according to its current formal definition, our country's politicians are not elected by "the people," but by "a body of citizens." I cannot vote for every politician, nor can non-citizens vote at all. Thus, it is a republic, not a democracy. And direct democracy is the only kind of democracy, even if one could say that America's system of referendums and voting is somewhat democratic in nature.

And what I hope to emphasize is that democracy is not flawless in the full sense of the word, because it is run by human beings. And anything run by human beings, as further elaborated by the field of psychology, can *never* be flawless. However, the flaws in democracy are, at the least, equal to republics, in some cases, probably outright eliminated.

The most common charge against democracy is that it is merely mob-rule. They say, "Direct democracy killed Socrates." In response, I must ask: are the hands of republics so clean? Athens' direct democracy killed one innocent man. But how many innocent men has the American republic killed? Only a fool would say none.

Furthermore, it is human nature, not ignorance of facts, which creates this mob-rule. Yes, psychology has shown that a person's ability to reason increases with their amount of education, but a person's emotional intelligence, the only thing that could restrain their tendency towards mob-rule, does not change at all. Human nature, that which has spawned all that is "immoral," can only be overcome by experience and self-deliberation. Mob-rule is, in itself, foolishly giving into the immorality of a group. Regardless of one's definition of morality, it always inherently violates all definitions of morality, because you are forsaking your own moral values, whatever they may be, for the ignorance of the group. Therefore, saying that democracy creates mob-rule, but republics do not, equates with saying that a college education not only makes you more knowledgeable, but also more ethical and wise. But morality and wisdom are not gained from wealth or law school, but from experience and self-deliberation.

Republics also do not limit mob-rule, but rather, they magnify it. A distinct majority can only occur if people agree. But people do not naturally agree in such large majorities, unless there are social structures that systematically encourage people to agree. Republics are one of these systems. In all other human circumstances where conformity is possible, there is never a clear majority. In musical taste, there is no majority, in race, there is no majority, in religion, there is no majority. Only when republics set up electoral systems which in turn naturally create 2-party systems do we end up with a majority. And it has been proven that it *is* electoral systems which create these large, monolithic parties. Because, being that it's a competition, people have a greater chance of winning at the competition if they ally with a large group. Whereas, in democracy, that is not the case.

Also, even when there are minorities and majorities, minorities have the tendency to grow and majorities have the tendency to shrink. Because minorities tend to be discriminated against by the majority, and are therefore poor and thus, use contraception less, are more communal-based, and require more children for the family to survive. Majorities tend to have more power, and therefore are wealthier and thus, use contraception more often, are more individually-based, and see children as an optional joy rather than a necessary investment. There are some exceptions, however, such as wealthy Jews and Christians who, for cultural reasons, have a great deal of children. But these exceptions are fairly rare and the general trend works.

It is also ridiculous that in our modern age, we still seem to support republics on the basis of meritocracy. "Might is right," was disproven many, many years ago and it's outrageous that it must be disproven yet again today.

In republics, only those who are the most wealthy and most educated can be politicians. But one's wealth and education has absolutely no basis on whether or not anyone is moral or legitimately cares about the people voting for them. But rather, the skills most needed to be a politician are wealth and deception -- thus, our politicians will be inherently immoral, because their craft requires them to be crafty. Now, you could say that politicians have the incentive to serve their constituents or else face losing their jobs. But a politician's mistakes can almost always be blamed on others, downplayed, and are quite frankly, usually irrelevant because it is extremely rare for people to actually vote based on the issues that the politician supports.

Republican Senator John McCain is certainly more liberal than Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman. Yet if they both ran for president, McCain would be supported by conservatives and Lieberman would be supported by liberals. Because we do not care about the issues, but by their identities. It's ridiculous to believe human beings are too stupid to make laws for themselves, but are somehow brilliant enough to pick people to make laws for them. Because doing something yourself is far easier than finding the right person to do it for you.

And people definitely do not vote based on actual issues. The overwhelming majority of people in the 2000 and 2004 political campaigns voted based on "moral values." And yet, American politicians have put forth almost no policies that could actually change or encourage moral values, especially the Democrats. The issue of "moral values," thus far, has been a seemingly insolvable problem. If the government even enforces morality, philosophically-speaking, that isn't morality at all. So why, then, is this such an important issue when it's something that Republicans may bring up, but never can or do actually act on?

There is also the famous debate between Nixon and JFK. Nixon looked old and tired, but had superior arguments. JFK looked young and virile, but had horrible arguments. And so, those who witnessed it live and on TV said that JFK won the debates. Those who witnessed it on radio said that Nixon won the debates. Once again, we see that human beings do not vote based on issues, so the foundation for republics' legitimacy is invalid.

In America, we have about a 90% incumbency rate. Out of the 435 seats in Congress, there are only about 30 or 40 actual competitive political campaigns each election. Most congressmen serve several decades, such as the Republican Strom Thurmond, a racist segregation-supporter who served in Congress for half a century. Then there's also the Democratic Senator Robert Byrd, an ex-KKK member. And when we have such people in our Congress today, especially Robert Byrd, whose constituents are primarily blacks and minorities, I think it is poignantly obvious that republics are a failure.

Democracies are also the only governments that won't collapse because they are the only thing which truly has checks and balances. In the United States, the power of both the legislative and executive branch has grown. For example, never in our history, has "emminent domain" been practiced so frequently. Never in our history has our president been able to spy on citizens or start a war, by calling it a "police action." Never in our history could a politician revoke a person's Constitutional rights on the grounds of suspected criminal acts (terrorism). Never in our history were the Kings of the Supreme Court, who can quite literally strike down any law, at any moment, for their entire lives, chosen because of their political affiliation. Nixon was a reflection of republics' inherent tendency towards corruption will continue. And without democracy, attempting to encourage freedom of information and political transparency is ultimately futile. Because if there are only one or two parties operating through our three-branched government, then how can there be checks and balances for organizations that are politically allied with eachother by being of a single party? They are not engaged in a three-way tug of war (checks and balances), but rather, they're one, politically-unified, self-interested group, with three arbitrary and meaningless divisions.

In republics, politicians' incentive are to be wealthy and cleverly deceptive, and do the bare minimum to keep their jobs, because they are usually not personally affected by the bills they pass at all. Why should men that make six-figure salaries (or did before entering politics) have any interest at all in the welfare of the poor? They don't. And the low class also tend to vote less, while the wealthy tend to vote more, once again, ensuring that republics tend to encourage tyrrany.

Whereas, in democracy, it is perfect representation with what statisticians call an "unbiased sample." People engaged in direct democracy are not Republicans or Democrats or Libertarians, but they are simply Americans. They are equally affected overall by the bills that they pass. Therefore, they are encouraged to do far more than the bare-minimum, for their good quality of life does not just depend on keeping their jobs and doing the bare-minimum, but by passing good legislation. They do not merely have the negative incentive of failure, but also have the positive incentive of success that politicians do not have. In other words, in a sense, republics are similar to the welfare trap. Government bodies run by elites thrive on their own failures. This is true of public education, the military, and virtually every government agency, to some extent. They fall into a republican trap, where, although they receive the incentive of losing their jobs for not working at all, they receive the greatest incentive by doing the bare-minimum.

In America, they say that we have a social contract, but we do not. We have "social exortion." A contract is one where you are approached, made an offer, and have the opportunity to agree or decline, without repercussion. In America, you face punishments, not merely lack of opportunity, for rejecting the social contract. Therefore, it isn't a contract at all, because you automatically sign it by merely being born.

In America, they say that we have the right to "life, liberty, and property." On life, my healthcare must be earned, the government can force me to go to war at any time, and if a police officer or government agent accidentally shoots a family member, I don't have the right to sue. On liberty, I cannot smoke marijuana, I cannot reject taxes for moral reasons, I cannot own certain types of guns or any gun if I commit a crime, whether or not my organization is a 'religion' or a 'charitable cause' must be approved by the Internal Revenue Service, I cannot insult people through the mass-media without being sued for slander or libel, and virtually nothing I do cannot be tracked by the intelligence agencies. And on property, I may not make the laws (or quite often, even defend myself) on my own property, I must pay the government for the privilege of even owning property, which they do not directly maintain, the government may arbitrarily take my property away at any time through emminent domain, and if I reject the social contract, I must either sell my property to another citizen or face imprisonment for tax-evasion and treason. No, it is well-established, we do not have the right to "life, liberty and property." And this is all simply because, in republics, the elite enjoy exercising power simply for the sake of exercising it.

And probably worst of all (and a further reflection of the previous statement), contrary to the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence, our law does not apply equally to all citizens. The president has the right to pardon any criminal he sees fit and these individuals are quite frequently simply friends and business associates of the president. In other words, if you are friends with the president, the law pretty much does not apply to you at all. State politicians also somewhat have the power to pardon criminals as well. And even in our Constitution and our laws, it states that congressmen may not be arrested for any crime, unless it gravely endangers the security of our state. Some argue that congressmen must always be able to attend congress to make laws. Well, why is it that they may willingly decide to filibuster and refuse to participate in congress, in order to block a law by lack of a quorum, and yet criminal congressmen may still participate? In fact, why should we even *have* criminal politicians at all? If we are going to have a republic, as flawed as it is, shouldn't we at the very least require that politicians have a clean criminal and drug record, like any other well-paying job? It may seem something so pathetically simple and the fact that we do not have it further demonstrates the inherent corruption of republics.

And today, most people reject democracy for the same flaws that are apparent, or even more apparent, in republics. And they reject democracy simply because it is not what they are used to, and therefore, it seems automatically inferior. Just as colonial Europeans viewed Native Americans as savages and Native Americans viewed colonial Europeans as barbarians. In other words, due to humanity's poor insight and self-absorbed arrogance, that always says, "This is as good as it can possibly be," the grass is greener on *this* side of the fence. This is also why republics were originally somewhat rejected in favor of monarchy, and how in modern times, democracy is somewhat facing rejection in Afghanistan and Iraq. But major political change did not occur through lobbying or deliberation, but through movement and revolution. We've already moved closer towards civilization, going from tribal communism to monarchy, to oligarchy, to republicanism. Now, civilization must either perish in corruption or continue on in a democratic revolution.
The Genius Masterminds
22-09-2005, 22:10
Two words -

WELL DONE

You really do enlighten the mind when it comes to American politics.
Neo-Anarchists
22-09-2005, 22:11
Okay, I'll bite:
Your main argument about the connection between democracy and mob rule seems to be the argument that a republic is also mob rule.
What, then, is the benefit for those currently oppressed to support a direct democracy of the sort that you appear to be advocating?

Whereas, in democracy, it is perfect representation with what statisticians call an "unbiased sample." People engaged in direct democracy are not Republicans or Democrats or Libertarians, but they are simply Americans. They are equally affected overall by the bills that they pass.
Equally affected? I'm not sure if I understand, because the way I am interpreting it that statment doesn't make much sense.
For instance, a decision over gay marriage. It doesn't affect people who arent planning a gay marriage all that much, does it?
Am I misunderstanding?

In America, they say that we have a social contract, but we do not. We have "social exortion." A contract is one where you are approached, made an offer, and have the opportunity to agree or decline, without repercussion. In America, you face punishments, not merely lack of opportunity, for rejecting the social contract. Therefore, it isn't a contract at all, because you automatically sign it by merely being born.

In America, they say that we have the right to "life, liberty, and property." On life, my healthcare must be earned, the government can force me to go to war at any time, and if a police officer or government agent accidentally shoots a family member, I don't have the right to sue. On liberty, I cannot smoke marijuana, I cannot reject taxes for moral reasons, I cannot own certain types of guns or any gun if I commit a crime, whether or not my organization is a 'religion' or a 'charitable cause' must be approved by the Internal Revenue Service, I cannot insult people through the mass-media without being sued for slander or libel, and virtually nothing I do cannot be tracked by the intelligence agencies. And on property, I may not make the laws (or quite often, even defend myself) on my own property, I must pay the government for the privilege of even owning property, which they do not directly maintain, the government may arbitrarily take my property away at any time through emminent domain, and if I reject the social contract, I must either sell my property to another citizen or face imprisonment for tax-evasion and treason. No, it is well-established, we do not have the right to "life, liberty and property." And this is all simply because, in republics, the elite enjoy exercising power simply for the sake of exercising it.
That is all well and good, but what do you propose to do differently to solve this?
Defaultia
22-09-2005, 22:16
The biggest problem with democracy is that people can't be assed to vote. With direct democracy, this would get even worse.
Beer and Guns
22-09-2005, 22:36
(Here is the essay that I said I would write on direct democracy, rebutting all modern criticisms and further establishing it.)

It is a shame that America was influenced more by Locke than Rousseau. Because essentially it has made our country a second-rate democracy, if you could even call it "democracy," which I do not. But, of course, it was inevitable, because what should we expect? That the aristocratic founding fathers would advocate a philosophy which said they had no intrinsic qualities that made them special? That the average wheat farmer is just as qualified to govern as they? Of course not. Even if it were true, it is something that they could never accept.

First of all, I must explain that I will not refer to the American republic as a "representative democracy." The latter term was not used until the early 20th century. Before then, it was well-established that we are not a democracy, but a republic. The founding fathers rejected democracy, on the basis that people are not intelligent enough to rule themselves and that, somewhat akin to Plato's Republic, they need philosopher kings to rule over them. Democracy's origins in Athens was direct democracy. Our historical government documents (and the Pledge of Allegiance) mention "republic," and not "democracy." Furthermore, even according to its current formal definition, our country's politicians are not elected by "the people," but by "a body of citizens." I cannot vote for every politician, nor can non-citizens vote at all. Thus, it is a republic, not a democracy. And direct democracy is the only kind of democracy, even if one could say that America's system of referendums and voting is somewhat democratic in nature.

And what I hope to emphasize is that democracy is not flawless in the full sense of the word, because it is run by human beings. And anything run by human beings, as further elaborated by the field of psychology, can *never* be flawless. However, the flaws in democracy are, at the least, equal to republics, in some cases, probably outright eliminated.

The most common charge against democracy is that it is merely mob-rule. They say, "Direct democracy killed Socrates." In response, I must ask: are the hands of republics so clean? Athens' direct democracy killed one innocent man. But how many innocent men has the American republic killed? Only a fool would say none.

Furthermore, it is human nature, not ignorance of facts, which creates this mob-rule. Yes, psychology has shown that a person's ability to reason increases with their amount of education, but a person's emotional intelligence, the only thing that could restrain their tendency towards mob-rule, does not change at all. Human nature, that which has spawned all that is "immoral," can only be overcome by experience and self-deliberation. Mob-rule is, in itself, foolishly giving into the immorality of a group. Regardless of one's definition of morality, it always inherently violates all definitions of morality, because you are forsaking your own moral values, whatever they may be, for the ignorance of the group. Therefore, saying that democracy creates mob-rule, but republics do not, equates with saying that a college education not only makes you more knowledgeable, but also more ethical and wise. But morality and wisdom are not gained from wealth or law school, but from experience and self-deliberation.

Republics also do not limit mob-rule, but rather, they magnify it. A distinct majority can only occur if people agree. But people do not naturally agree in such large majorities, unless there are social structures that systematically encourage people to agree. Republics are one of these systems. In all other human circumstances where conformity is possible, there is never a clear majority. In musical taste, there is no majority, in race, there is no majority, in religion, there is no majority. Only when republics set up electoral systems which in turn naturally create 2-party systems do we end up with a majority. And it has been proven that it *is* electoral systems which create these large, monolithic parties. Because, being that it's a competition, people have a greater chance of winning at the competition if they ally with a large group. Whereas, in democracy, that is not the case.

Also, even when there are minorities and majorities, minorities have the tendency to grow and majorities have the tendency to shrink. Because minorities tend to be discriminated against by the majority, and are therefore poor and thus, use contraception less, are more communal-based, and require more children for the family to survive. Majorities tend to have more power, and therefore are wealthier and thus, use contraception more often, are more individually-based, and see children as an optional joy rather than a necessary investment. There are some exceptions, however, such as wealthy Jews and Christians who, for cultural reasons, have a great deal of children. But these exceptions are fairly rare and the general trend works.

It is also ridiculous that in our modern age, we still seem to support republics on the basis of meritocracy. "Might is right," was disproven many, many years ago and it's outrageous that it must be disproven yet again today.

In republics, only those who are the most wealthy and most educated can be politicians. But one's wealth and education has absolutely no basis on whether or not anyone is moral or legitimately cares about the people voting for them. But rather, the skills most needed to be a politician are wealth and deception -- thus, our politicians will be inherently immoral, because their craft requires them to be crafty. Now, you could say that politicians have the incentive to serve their constituents or else face losing their jobs. But a politician's mistakes can almost always be blamed on others, downplayed, and are quite frankly, usually irrelevant because it is extremely rare for people to actually vote based on the issues that the politician supports.

Republican Senator John McCain is certainly more liberal than Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman. Yet if they both ran for president, McCain would be supported by conservatives and Lieberman would be supported by liberals. Because we do not care about the issues, but by their identities. It's ridiculous to believe human beings are too stupid to make laws for themselves, but are somehow brilliant enough to pick people to make laws for them. Because doing something yourself is far easier than finding the right person to do it for you.

And people definitely do not vote based on actual issues. The overwhelming majority of people in the 2000 and 2004 political campaigns voted based on "moral values." And yet, American politicians have put forth almost no policies that could actually change or encourage moral values, especially the Democrats. The issue of "moral values," thus far, has been a seemingly insolvable problem. If the government even enforces morality, philosophically-speaking, that isn't morality at all. So why, then, is this such an important issue when it's something that Republicans may bring up, but never can or do actually act on?

There is also the famous debate between Nixon and JFK. Nixon looked old and tired, but had superior arguments. JFK looked young and virile, but had horrible arguments. And so, those who witnessed it live and on TV said that JFK won the debates. Those who witnessed it on radio said that Nixon won the debates. Once again, we see that human beings do not vote based on issues, so the foundation for republics' legitimacy is invalid.

In America, we have about a 90% incumbency rate. Out of the 435 seats in Congress, there are only about 30 or 40 actual competitive political campaigns each election. Most congressmen serve several decades, such as the Republican Strom Thurmond, a racist segregation-supporter who served in Congress for half a century. Then there's also the Democratic Senator Robert Byrd, an ex-KKK member. And when we have such people in our Congress today, especially Robert Byrd, whose constituents are primarily blacks and minorities, I think it is poignantly obvious that republics are a failure.

Democracies are also the only governments that won't collapse because they are the only thing which truly has checks and balances. In the United States, the power of both the legislative and executive branch has grown. For example, never in our history, has "emminent domain" been practiced so frequently. Never in our history has our president been able to spy on citizens or start a war, by calling it a "police action." Never in our history could a politician revoke a person's Constitutional rights on the grounds of suspected criminal acts (terrorism). Never in our history were the Kings of the Supreme Court, who can quite literally strike down any law, at any moment, for their entire lives, chosen because of their political affiliation. Nixon was a reflection of republics' inherent tendency towards corruption will continue. And without democracy, attempting to encourage freedom of information and political transparency is ultimately futile. Because if there are only one or two parties operating through our three-branched government, then how can there be checks and balances for organizations that are politically allied with eachother by being of a single party? They are not engaged in a three-way tug of war (checks and balances), but rather, they're one, politically-unified, self-interested group, with three arbitrary and meaningless divisions.

In republics, politicians' incentive are to be wealthy and cleverly deceptive, and do the bare minimum to keep their jobs, because they are usually not personally affected by the bills they pass at all. Why should men that make six-figure salaries (or did before entering politics) have any interest at all in the welfare of the poor? They don't. And the low class also tend to vote less, while the wealthy tend to vote more, once again, ensuring that republics tend to encourage tyrrany.

Whereas, in democracy, it is perfect representation with what statisticians call an "unbiased sample." People engaged in direct democracy are not Republicans or Democrats or Libertarians, but they are simply Americans. They are equally affected overall by the bills that they pass. Therefore, they are encouraged to do far more than the bare-minimum, for their good quality of life does not just depend on keeping their jobs and doing the bare-minimum, but by passing good legislation. They do not merely have the negative incentive of failure, but also have the positive incentive of success that politicians do not have. In other words, in a sense, republics are similar to the welfare trap. Government bodies run by elites thrive on their own failures. This is true of public education, the military, and virtually every government agency, to some extent. They fall into a republican trap, where, although they receive the incentive of losing their jobs for not working at all, they receive the greatest incentive by doing the bare-minimum.

In America, they say that we have a social contract, but we do not. We have "social exortion." A contract is one where you are approached, made an offer, and have the opportunity to agree or decline, without repercussion. In America, you face punishments, not merely lack of opportunity, for rejecting the social contract. Therefore, it isn't a contract at all, because you automatically sign it by merely being born.

In America, they say that we have the right to "life, liberty, and property." On life, my healthcare must be earned, the government can force me to go to war at any time, and if a police officer or government agent accidentally shoots a family member, I don't have the right to sue. On liberty, I cannot smoke marijuana, I cannot reject taxes for moral reasons, I cannot own certain types of guns or any gun if I commit a crime, whether or not my organization is a 'religion' or a 'charitable cause' must be approved by the Internal Revenue Service, I cannot insult people through the mass-media without being sued for slander or libel, and virtually nothing I do cannot be tracked by the intelligence agencies. And on property, I may not make the laws (or quite often, even defend myself) on my own property, I must pay the government for the privilege of even owning property, which they do not directly maintain, the government may arbitrarily take my property away at any time through emminent domain, and if I reject the social contract, I must either sell my property to another citizen or face imprisonment for tax-evasion and treason. No, it is well-established, we do not have the right to "life, liberty and property." And this is all simply because, in republics, the elite enjoy exercising power simply for the sake of exercising it.

And probably worst of all (and a further reflection of the previous statement), contrary to the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence, our law does not apply equally to all citizens. The president has the right to pardon any criminal he sees fit and these individuals are quite frequently simply friends and business associates of the president. In other words, if you are friends with the president, the law pretty much does not apply to you at all. State politicians also somewhat have the power to pardon criminals as well. And even in our Constitution and our laws, it states that congressmen may not be arrested for any crime, unless it gravely endangers the security of our state. Some argue that congressmen must always be able to attend congress to make laws. Well, why is it that they may willingly decide to filibuster and refuse to participate in congress, in order to block a law by lack of a quorum, and yet criminal congressmen may still participate? In fact, why should we even *have* criminal politicians at all? If we are going to have a republic, as flawed as it is, shouldn't we at the very least require that politicians have a clean criminal and drug record, like any other well-paying job? It may seem something so pathetically simple and the fact that we do not have it further demonstrates the inherent corruption of republics.

And today, most people reject democracy for the same flaws that are apparent, or even more apparent, in republics. And they reject democracy simply because it is not what they are used to, and therefore, it seems automatically inferior. Just as colonial Europeans viewed Native Americans as savages and Native Americans viewed colonial Europeans as barbarians. In other words, due to humanity's poor insight and self-absorbed arrogance, that always says, "This is as good as it can possibly be," the grass is greener on *this* side of the fence. This is also why republics were originally somewhat rejected in favor of monarchy, and how in modern times, democracy is somewhat facing rejection in Afghanistan and Iraq. But major political change did not occur through lobbying or deliberation, but through movement and revolution. We've already moved closer towards civilization, going from tribal communism to monarchy, to oligarchy, to republicanism. Now, civilization must either perish in corruption or continue on in a democratic revolution.

Without getting long winded the biggest difference between Rousseau and locke is that Roussea believes the state or the collective that is society takes precidence over the individual and Individual rights . The US system of government addresses the inherent flaws of pure democracy by being a constitutional democracy . The individual in the US takes precident . Government by the people of the people for the people . With Rousseau the people work for the state and are responible to it . Here the state works for the people and is responsible to the people.
Chomskyrion
22-09-2005, 22:50
Okay, I'll bite:
Your main argument about the connection between democracy and mob rule seems to be the argument that a republic is also mob rule.
What, then, is the benefit for those currently oppressed to support a direct democracy of the sort that you appear to be advocating?
Because direct democracies have more adequate representation. The decisions made reflect the general will rather than an elite aristocracy that's supposed to reflect the general will. Assuming that it is better for man to be free than not free, with two systems with comparable flaws, then the one which pragmatically allows the most amount of people the right to self-govern is the most moral. Just as a republic is better than a dictatorship, a democracy is better than a republic.

Equally affected? I'm not sure if I understand, because the way I am interpreting it that statment doesn't make much sense.
For instance, a decision over gay marriage. It doesn't affect people who arent planning a gay marriage all that much, does it?
Am I misunderstanding?
It equally affects them, overall... In other words, it reflects a perfect average.

In statistics, if you are doing a study to find out what "the average American" is like, you would preferably find the average of all Americans, or at the very least average out a random, evenly-distributed portion of Americans. A study could not be reliable if you did it by asking your participants, "I want you to find someone who knows what you believe, and then have them answer these questions for you."

The same is true of republics. You cannot expect politicians to legitimately know what their constituents feel (polls show that most people see politicians as "out of touch" and disillusioned).

No, it isn't going to affect each one of them PERFECTLY, but the average American in direct democracy would be far closer to the REAL average American than a politician.

That is all well and good, but what do you propose to do differently to solve this?
I, as a person or what should society do?

Individually, I'm going to continue to write and possibly campaign, someday.

As a society, I believe that if we implement direct democracy, the rest will follow simply because democracy more adequately represents the people than republicanism.

It's true that all governments and laws will inherently violate laws and liberty. But governments must still, quite obviously, be in place, because the size of our population and our technology would very quickly lead to chaos and disorder. Just look at what happens every time there's a major power outage or natural disaster. The ensuing chaos automatically disproves anarchism.

The biggest problem with democracy is that people can't be assed to vote. With direct democracy, this would get even worse.
I thought I addressed this in the essay, but I'll clarify it now and add it later, when I revise the essay:

It would not get "worse" in direct democracy, because the necessity to vote is just as important in republics as it is in direct democracies. If only fanatics vote in republics, you'll end up with fanatical rulers. And if only fanatics vote in direct democracies, you'll end up with fanatical laws. And the latter case is no worse than the previous. In fact, I'd argue that the latter case is better. Because fanatical laws can be overturned far more easily than fanatical rulers can be deposed.

Average people would be given more political authority, but as a whole, we wouldn't be given more responsibility, so it couldn't get "worse." There would inevitably be people that would take charge as leaders (just as we have leaders now), but their political authority would always be subject to other people's authority, not a one-time deal, where, every two years we ask, "Should they be our ruler or not?"

Without getting long winded the biggest difference between Rousseau and locke is that Roussea believes the state or the collective that is society takes precidence over the individual and Individual rights . The US system of government addresses the inherent flaws of pure democracy by being a constitutional democracy . The individual in the US takes precident . Government by the people of the people for the people . With Rousseau the people work for the state and are responible to it . Here the state works for the people and is responsible to the people.
Please, do get long-winded, because you need to back up your statements.

I don't believe that Rousseau believed society's rights take precedence over individual rights, but simply that society is the most realistic and moral group to determine individual rights, because they reflect the most amount of people. Whereas, if you have minority-rule, such as a religious group in a theocracy, a family in a monarchy, or wealthy aristocrats in a republic, they are subject to their own group's narrow self-interests.

The U.S. government does not address the flaws of pure democracy at all. As I'd established on our rights to life, liberty, and property, the individual does not take precedent. With a 90% incumbency rate, polls that show people see politicans as disillusioned, and the fact that it costs millions to run for Congress, that most Congressmen have advanced educations at prestigious law schools, they are not a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people."

To Rousseau, our golden age was when the state did not exist at all, so it's incorrect to claim that he so desired a massive, Socialist state. And he believed that it's best for us to try to attempt to best re-create that golden age where we lived based upon our own natural inequalities, rather than being oppressed by conventional inequalities.
Beer and Guns
22-09-2005, 23:46
I never said he required a huge socialist state I said he has a different philosophy vs. Locke. Locke is more the individual will always act in his best interest and what is in his best interest is good for society as a whole type of philosophy..Adam Smith..capitalist..etc. my views on Rousseau are based on his books . Thats what I got out of it .And others that follow his philosophy seem to tilt that way. I'd love to continue and post links right now but dinner is calling me . :D I'll try to get back to this as soon as I can. Its one of the most interesting threads I have seen here in a while . ;)
Beer and Guns
22-09-2005, 23:51
Here's an interesting one I found .

http://ctct.essortment.com/lockeandrouss_rqkw.htm

I have to find the one that combines both. What Paine and the others got into when debating the US form of Democracy .
Liberalstity
22-09-2005, 23:56
Even if it were true,


So it's not true, eh? What've ya got against wheat farmers?
Pure Metal
23-09-2005, 00:23
It is a shame that America was influenced more by Locke than Rousseau.
wow, i agree with you right from the word 'go' it seems :)

too late/tired to read this now, will print out & read tomorrow. this is especially relavent to me (us) because of the UDCP's policies on direct democracy - read here (http://www.udcp.org) if you're interested (its under information->manifesto->scroll down to 'governance'))
Serapindal
23-09-2005, 00:26
True Democracy is Anarchy.

Anarchy is worse then Facism.

Order at any cost.
Chomskyrion
23-09-2005, 00:59
Here's an interesting one I found .

http://ctct.essortment.com/lockeandrouss_rqkw.htm

I have to find the one that combines both. What Paine and the others got into when debating the US form of Democracy .
That site is a poor interpretation of Locke and Rousseau. Locke's very words "life, liberty, and property," were taken into the Constitution, verbatim. The aspects they mention of Rousseau are merely views of freedom and representation shared by Locke and Hobbes, not anything distinctly of Rousseau's.

If people did not give up their rights, they could not leave the State of Nature. Rousseau claims that everyone gives up his or her rights equally:
And the founding fathers did not allow that each individual give up their rights "equally." For example, as a result of this statement, Rousseau strongly opposed slavery. The founding fathers, on the other hand, did not overturn slavery at all. Also, if each individual gave up their rights "equally," then there would not by a republic. Because in a republic, there is a hierarchy of rights. Certainly, voters have political power, but voters give up far more rights than politicians do.

As for their quotes of Locke on economics, that he supports laissez-faire capitalism. First of all, supporting laissez-faire capitalism would contradict the person's conclusion of the founding fathers not being influenced by him (because the founding fathers were very much laissez-faire capitalists). However, Locke is taken out-of-context. To quote the Wikis on Locke:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

Because of his opposition to aristocracy and slavery in his major writings, he is accused of hypocrisy, or of caring only for the liberty of English capitalists. Most scholars reject these criticisms, however, questioning the extent of his impact upon the Fundamental Constititution and his detractors' interpretations of his work in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Treatises_of_Government

Locke argues that a full economic system could, in principle, exist within the state of nature. Property could therefore predate the existence of government, and thus society can be dedicated to the protection of property.

When one joins civil society, however, one joins one's property to it to be regulated by the community. This is one of the things to which one consents when joining society. In the Twentieth Century, Marxist scholars neglected this point and made Locke into the founder of bourgeois capitalism. Those who were opposed to communism accepted their reading of Locke, but celebrated him for it. He has therefore become associated with capitalism, an association that is implausible on both historical and textual grounds.

And finally, the most compelling idea which shows that the founding fathers were more influenced by Locke than Rousseau is that Locke advocated Republicanism while Rousseau seemed to advocate Democracy, or at least Libertarian-Socialism. Locke rationalized slavery, while Rousseau opposed it. Add this to what I mentioned before, of the founding fathers quoting Locke verbatim.

So, that essay is a poorly-founded ad hominem aimed at "Rousseau-izing" the founding fathers. This part was especially bad:
John Locke was the son of a wealthy family who sought to maintain and justify his family's wealth

I never said he required a huge socialist state I said he has a different philosophy vs. Locke. Locke is more the individual will always act in his best interest and what is in his best interest is good for society as a whole type of philosophy..Adam Smith..capitalist..etc. my views on Rousseau are based on his books . Thats what I got out of it .And others that follow his philosophy seem to tilt that way. I'd love to continue and post links right now but dinner is calling me . :D I'll try to get back to this as soon as I can. Its one of the most interesting threads I have seen here in a while . ;)
Locke's view of mankind is idealistic and incompatible with modern psychology.

True Democracy is Anarchy.

Anarchy is worse then Facism.

Order at any cost.
I suggest you read this thread, if you already haven't. And if you have, then read it again.
Beer and Guns
23-09-2005, 14:08
I am sorry the link I posted because its " interesting " didnt back your beliefs and assertation . The free disemination and the discussion of opposing views is how intelligent people learn . I myself do not aggree with the essay I posted the link to . Thats why I felt it was interesting. The United States is a hybrid of Capitalism , socialism , republicanism , democracy , Rosseu and Locke and Jefferson and Paine etc. Combined in a federalist format at the national level . But the United States is a collection of Sovergn states that have aggreed to join a federation in there own best interest . Democracy is at work from the school boards and other local level forms of government to Mayors of citys , city councils etc. to State legislative bodys to Governors.
You cant discount the States in a discussion of the United States .
I aggree that the founders of the US did not trust what they considered " mob rule " pure democracy . They didnt even have women voters . Sufferage was granted only to an elite minority . The United States is a unique form of government . It combines many philosophys . Because it combined in a great compromise , the points of veiws of its many different leaders , and the representatives of 13 states all with different interest .
Unlike the Balkans and other places in the world the multitude of diversity , the poor the rich the Catholic the Muslim the Jew . the black the white the brown the Protestant the Irish the British the German the Russian the Chinese etc. etc . Have somehow been able to all live together under this form of democracy and prosper . Not only prosper but become a super power and the most powerfull economic force on Earth .
When you are born in the United States you are born with democracy in your blood . ;)

http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/bernstein_on_locke.html

What did Locke mean by property? His definition included not only land and movables, but life and liberty as well.[2] His definition therefore comprehended the basic concerns and rights of individuals. Modern liberal and leftist commentators have made themselves oblivious to Locke's definition of property. They have glibly assumed that Locke was noncompassionate, exclusively concerned with the preservation of real estate. Locke actually considered one's body to be a form of property

more interesting stuff.

Bertrand Russell in 1945 very sensibly classified Rousseau as:

... the inventor of the political philosophy of the pseudo-democratic dictatorships. Ever since his time those who considered themselves reformers have been divided into two groups, those who followed him and those who followed Locke. Gradually the incompatibility became increasingly evident. At the present time Hitler is the outcome of Rousseau, Roosevelt and Churchill of Locke.[5]
http://socserv2.socsci.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/locke/
http://spot.colorado.edu/~cmills/2200-rev.html
http://locke-and-rousseau.com/list.html
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html
http://www.wabash.edu/Rousseau/

More on Capitalist democracy .... ;)
http://tx.cpusa.org/democ.htm
I think its safe to say I do not aggree at all with that . Its always good to see what the other views are.
http://www.dsp.org.au/ss/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=40
federalism brief
http://www.closeup.org/federal.htm
States rights and some dissent
http://www.theocracywatch.org/states_rights2.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States'_rights

How can you understand the United States without Jefferson ?

The philosophical roots of Jeffersonian Democracy are to be found in the ideas of the Enlightenment and in natural law that Jefferson expounded in the Declaration of Independence. In an address in 1790, he reiterated his faith in "the sufficiency of human reason for the care of human affairs" and stressed that "the will of the majority, the Natural law of every society, is the only sure guardian of the rights of man." This faith in the people was basic to the creed he enunciated in the election of 1800 and implemented as president. He wished to keep the government close to the people. "I am not for transferring all the powers of the States to the general government, and all those of that government to the Executive branch," he wrote at a time when a Federalist Congress had given the president extraordinary power over aliens. With civil liberties threatened by the Alien and Sedition Acts, Jefferson reaffirmed his commitment to the Bill of Rights. In a period of rising military expenditures and mounting debt, he promised a government "rigorously frugal and simple," reducing the army and navy and applying the savings to discharging the national debt. The desire to decrease the army also reflected a republican fear of standing armies that had roots in radical English thought

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_047600_jeffersonian.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0857724.html

The United States has evolved over the years to include new philosophys and social trends. Adjustments are made to learn from mistakes and disaster .
That is the beauty of the Constitution and this particular form of Government . And gos to prove my assertation of the HYBRID nature of the United States form of government .

Jacksonian Democracy vs Jeffersonian Democracy

Jeffersonian Democracy believed that capable, well educated leaders should govern in the people’s interest.
Jacksonian Democracy believed that the PEOPLE should manage government affairs
Jeffersonian Democracy reflected a chiefly agricultural society
Jacksonian Democracy reflected an agricultural AND rising industrial society
Jeffersonian Democracy limited democracy to chiefly its political aspects
Jacksonian Democracy expanded democracy beyond political aspects to include social and economic factors

http://www.eosmith.org/willett/PPs/2JacksonPolitical/tsld006.htm
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/ageofjackson/

United States of socialism
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/f_d_roosevelt.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/o/os/oskar_lange.htm
http://www.nathanielturner.com/socialismintheunitedstates.htm
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAsocialist.htm
http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Projects/depression/
http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/lectures/lecture27.html

The United States of 1776 -1779 would have never envisioned Social Security . Government welfare programs . Income tax. Redistribution of wealth from rich to poor . anti trust laws free clinics and health care for the very poor , unemployment insurance , workers compensation , trade unionism ..etc. But then again they wouldnt have envision Colin Powell , women voters - Hilary and Bill , free black men and women etc. They would not even recognise the United States of today at a political level .

Is it because of this document http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html ?

Or is it it because the United States is a true form of representative Democracy ?
Or is it both ?
Chomskyrion
23-09-2005, 19:57
I have not disputed that it was not a hybrid, but rather, that the hybrid was "more Locke, less Rousseau," which you agreed with. And that this compromise has led to a corrupt republic.

And finally, I disagree with the quote that mentions Hitler and Rousseau, because Hitler outright contradicts Rousseau's beliefs. Hitler was a fascist tyrant, who didn't accept democracy at all, whereas Rousseau believed very strongly in democracy. Rousseau opposed slavery and "might is right," whereas Hitler supported both.

Rousseau was also way before Hitler's time. In my opinion, Hitler was influenced far more by Friedrich Nietzsche. Nierzsche believed that there must be masters and slaves, in order for society to work, and that there are no morals other than the morals that "supermen" develop. Hitler saw himself as that supermen, saw Germans as masters, and saw Jews and many others as slaves. Hitler was very much an Irrationalist, not a Rousseauan Democrat.

The United States has evolved over the years to include new philosophys and social trends. Adjustments are made to learn from mistakes and disaster .
That is the beauty of the Constitution and this particular form of Government . And gos to prove my assertation of the HYBRID nature of the United States form of government .
I am not saying that we have not made progress, but rather, that we are highly lacking in progress. Much of the progress that we should have made is so basic that it's unfathomable why all politicians do not support it. I've listed that lack of progress in previous posts in this thread and do not need to repeat myself again. Furthermore, I've already established that because of a lack of incentive, our politicians tend to do the bare minimum. The bare minimum creates progress, of course, but very little. Yes, we established civil rights. But it took us nearly 200 years to do so. And we still have not finished, such as with homosexuals continuing to be oppressed and discriminated against. Yes, we established social welfare, but it took a worldwide, global depression to gain support for it. And shortly afterwards, people support limiting or completely dissolving what little social welfare we have.

In short: You are attributing a cultural change in values, brought about by education, with being the continued progress of the government, which certainly is not the case. Our government has grown in size, our world has become more dangerous, and we are up to our eyeballs in debt. I don't call that "progress."

And despite economists' suggestions for a "negative income tax," that non-politicians seem to agree with as being the perfect solution to our welfare\poverty problem, neither Democrats nor Republicans have brought it up at all. Nor have they addressed the problem of political corruption, which statistics show Americans are concerned about, and is also reflected in all of the independent parties.

The United States of 1776 -1779 would have never envisioned Social Security . Government welfare programs . Income tax. Redistribution of wealth from rich to poor . anti trust laws free clinics and health care for the very poor , unemployment insurance , workers compensation , trade unionism ..etc. But then again they wouldnt have envision Colin Powell , women voters - Hilary and Bill , free black men and women etc. They would not even recognise the United States of today at a political level .

Is it because of this document http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...tion.table.html ?

Or is it it because the United States is a true form of representative Democracy ?
Or is it both ?
They also would not have envisioned the FCC, the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, nuclear weapons, world war, school shootings, the industrial revolution, soft money, corporate scandals, monopolies like Microsoft and Intel, stockmarket crashes, unconstitutional wars, expansive use of executive orders, one-party government, suggestions of "global U.S. hegemony," or such creative use of emminent domain.

Is it because this document can be interpreted by sophist elites to serve their own self-interests?
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html

Or is it because the United States has demonstrated that republics fail?
Or is it both?
Ragbralbur
23-09-2005, 19:59
The second sentence of the introduction is a fragment.
Chomskyrion
23-09-2005, 20:04
The second sentence of the introduction is a fragment.
http://individual.utoronto.ca/crucified/dump/grammar.jpg
Ragbralbur
23-09-2005, 20:06
Well it is.
Beer and Guns
24-09-2005, 02:36
Well be the grammer as it may ... :D I see the United States government in comparison to the rest of the world as a great success story that is worthy of emulating . Far from a failure .

The vote. If you are old enough and live here as a citizen you can vote for whomever you choose .
The people who vote , or choose to vote can can form any type of government they choose within the constitution at any time . And if they think the constitution is restrictictive they can change it .
There is no restriction on the amount of partys that can run for office .
If you can form a party you can run .
This form of government seems to be able to keep a diverse group of races/ religions and classes and political types from having to kill each other to have a political say . and history proves that no other form of government has had this success . And the Uniterd States for all its many faults is the only superpower and the only country to be as successfull economically . (For all its people ) .
Everyone in the United States has an oppurtunity to make a living and most can do better , than make a living , if they so desire .
The United States has very little to worry about another country... ummm attacking it ? ( it seems fairly ludicrouse but I have never witnessed a blitzkrieg unless I was watching a movie or playing a game ..some have in their lifetime ) .

So you have the most secure , most finacialy successfull , and arguably free country in the world .

But we keep electing old white guys . Old ( Rich ) white guys to be president . And the people we elect ( congress ) ...we keep electing them .. the same people over and over ..but the thing is we have a choice. We can elect someone else but we do not . The important thing is ...we...as in those who choose to get off their ass to vote ...ELECT ..who we want..NO ONE FORCES us to elect them . So what if they are old rich white guys ? we have women who run ..we have gay people who run ( the ones who admit it run for congress ) We have every race , religion and color or gender ABLE to run for every office in the US . look at the diversity we have in Governors of states and Mayors of citys . Look at the congress men and women . Even Senators ( mostly old rich guys ) .
For some reason we keep electing rich white guys for president . Go figure . ( Clinton just seems to be too much of a GUY to count ...without him blow jobs would have never been SO acceptable . Every guy in the US owes a big debt to Clinton . )
At any rate the president doesnt run the friggin government . He's only the president . Congress is the true boss . Congress can tell the president to go fuck himself at any time ..in a respectable manner of course .

So how is our " republic " a failure ? In your opinion . Whats better ? What has proven to be better ?
Americai
24-09-2005, 06:57
(Here is some B.S. I made without having an actual outline for a better form of government, mmkay?.)

bitchbitchbitchbitchbitchbitchbitchbitchbitchbitchbitch

Right, so, I was waiting for you to actually do something BETTER than the system we have. Its a lot of complaining, but no deliveries. Try again, please.