NationStates Jolt Archive

there must be something wrong with Americans.




Give this man a cookie !

No, the alcohol thing was just as an aside - but the general comment was that murder rates are a better and more reliable gauge of gun crime than rape.

If the guns are not at fault (ignoring the fact gun crime is hard to commit without guns...) then it must be American society, law, culture or people to blame for the high murder rate. Which is it? What is special about america that the richest country in the world with low unemployment that also causes it to have a very high murder rate?

Poverty rate , social conditions and a drug problem . Thats what sets us apart from other nations with similar conditions concerning gun ownership .
Its easier to blame guns than to fix the others. Its called denial .

"your plan is pointless". False.

Actually this one is true. I can assure you that any attempt to disarm the American gun owning population is going to result in extreme violence. Gun owners have argued for years about this. And the anti-gunners just don't listen. You CAN'T disarm us, because we're armed and we won't let you.

This thread is somewhat pointless anyways, when the time comes, your philospphical brethren will be on the wrong end of the gun. Maybe we'll be so hyped up at that victory and just go ahead and invade Canada. I think we can beat Hitler's record time invading Poland. :cool:

The sources have been linked numerous times in this thread. You know this.
And how does that make it a "fact"?

You also don't know what an "Ad Hominem" is.
What is YOUR definition of Ad Hominem?

False statement. There are restrictions on criminals.
What restrictions?

Vermont has few restrictions on firearms and has a much lower rape rate than Canada.
Canada has gun restrictions and a much lower murder rates than the US.

Since you completely missed the point on the poster correlating crime to guns, he was making a comparison to low crime w/ guns. But I'm sure you just mistook it and didn't deliberately try and misrepresent it, did you?
You mean like, Canada could have a lower rape rate by encouraging gun ownership?

One comment about my own stance:

I do not have a problem with responsible gun ownership. People who use guns for sport and to an extent people who use guns for safety - mainly people in rural areas where they ae more isolated and hence further from help. What I do oppose is unresponsible gun ownership, and given the US has such high gun ownership combied with a very high murder rate of which the vast majority are committed using guns - I think it is fair to say that as a nation America does not have responsible gun ownership. Often the Swiss get banded about as an example of a country with high gun ownership and low gun crime - this is because the gun ownership nationwide is responsible and therefore there is little wrong with it.
Well stated, and I concur. :)

<snip>You mean like, Canada could have a lower rape rate by encouraging gun ownership?
Heaven forbid. I would be every bit as unnerved by a government promoting gun ownership as opposing it.

I simply want people to be left alone with their CHOICE.

And how does that make it a "fact"??

They've been peer reviewed which makes it more of a "fact" than the majority of your data


What is YOUR definition of Ad Hominem??

The formal one. Look it up.


What restrictions??

All federal and state laws.


Canada has gun restrictions and a much lower murder rates than the US. ?

And had them before the restrictions.


You mean like, Canada could have a lower rape rate by encouraging gun ownership?

At least you admit it.

There's a reason most European countrys have strict gun controll... its called history... :D Would you let these guys have guns ? after you read a few pages and get past a few world wars and then Kosovo and Serbia...its amazing they are allowed sharp sissors ! Why do you think the guys from over there ...admitingly being chased by a guy who like to make lampshades out of people... gave us the Atom bomb ? Would you trust it with them ?
I mean ..cripes... if an American wants more living space he builds an addition onto the back of his house..over there they invade Poland . :D

This has been my sole attempt at satirical humor...if you dont believe I am kidding then come by my place so I can shoot you all in good fun of course .

Well stated, and I concur. :)

You would even though those who legally own firearms (millions)are responsible for only a tiny fraction of crime.

But America has similar employment levels and similar GDP per capita to say the UK where gun crime is much much lower.

Hell - France and Germany have unemployment of 10 to 11% and do not have murder rates close to the US.

But I agree with what i think is the main point in that there are other social issues that should be delt with to better reduce gun crime - but from here it seems that these are not delt with as they would cost money to the taxpayer.

look at the poverty rate among the nations you are comparing ours is 12 % approx. Out of almost 300 million people . Do the math . More people in poverty = more potential criminals . Compared to criminals that come from the rich and middle class. Combine that with the drug ...ahem ...situation . And then combine our unique social situation . Do you see what I mean ?

Actually this one is true. I can assure you that any attempt to disarm the American gun owning population is going to result in extreme violence. Gun owners have argued for years about this. And the anti-gunners just don't listen. You CAN'T disarm us, because we're armed and we won't let you.
One more time with feeling.....I am not suggesting disarmament, although I am sure after reading some of the responses here, that certain individuals shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.

This thread is somewhat pointless anyways, when the time comes, your philospphical brethren will be on the wrong end of the gun. Maybe we'll be so hyped up at that victory and just go ahead and invade Canada. I think we can beat Hitler's record time invading Poland. :cool:
Ah, a ticket to Fantasyland for you. Iraq would seem like a picnic versus an invasion of Canada.

look at the poverty rate among the nations you are comparing ours is 12 % approx. Out of almost 300 million people . Do the math . More people in poverty = more potential criminals . Compared to criminals that come from the rich and middle class. Combine that with the drug ...ahem ...situation . And then combine our unique social situation . Do you see what I mean ?
Plus, the majority of our poor have been warehoused by Great Society & Urban Renewal programs to the extent that they are concentrated. Such concentration magnafies their danger to themselves and society as a whole. Thank you LBJ.

If 11% of french and germans are unemployed then they should be pretty poor, and per capita there should be far more poor people than the US. They have 3 to 4 times the unemployment (i think).

Theres gotta be something wrong if the richest country in the world (with relatively low living costs) has such a problem with poverty that their murder rate is three times that of the more similar countries.

I agree with the drug problem. Personally I reckon the US should have the death penalty for smuggling and dealing hard drugs.

Yes they may have a high unemployment rate but being Socialist their unemployed are not poverty stricken. When was the last time you saw a homeless person in France or Germany ? Their poverty rate is at what 6 to 8 percent ? compareed to the US ? And England the closest to the US is at 9 percent ? I'll go look but I know its lower from another thread.
that had me looking it up .

well this is from an article that I cant fact check but...since the poverty rate doesnt jive with all of the other figures I have seen.. :rolleyes: it says 17 ..I dont even have figures from Democrats that are higher than 14 .

United States 17.1%
Canada 12.6
United Kingdom 9.7
Switzerland 8.5
Germany 5.6
Sweden 5.3
Norway 5.2

Sorry I just read the first page, and skipped the rest os I'm sure this point is really off topic but I'll post it anyways


Someone was saying how parents were bringing up the kid as an anti-gun person, well I got my frist BB gun when I was 3 years old, when I was 5 years old my dad taught me how to shoot a .22, when i was 7 he introduced me to a 4/10. And i've shot plenty of other guns since then and I don't wanan brag but i'm a pretty good shot. So guns are nothing new to me, and if I had to defend myself, i do know how to use a gun.

Hey I'm with you there we need all the guys who think a 6pack and 100rds are a good mix to be removed as gun owners...I'd prefered they wised up but if they can't shoot responably don't shoot at all. And any parent who's kid get their gun and uses it to commit a crime is an accessory !



One comment about my own stance:

I do not have a problem with responsible gun ownership. People who use guns for sport and to an extent people who use guns for safety - mainly people in rural areas where they ae more isolated and hence further from help. What I do oppose is unresponsible gun ownership, and given the US has such high gun ownership combied with a very high murder rate of which the vast majority are committed using guns - I think it is fair to say that as a nation America does not have responsible gun ownership. Often the Swiss get banded about as an example of a country with high gun ownership and low gun crime - this is because the gun ownership nationwide is responsible and therefore there is little wrong with it.

My gun was stolen from my bedroom last week. I know who did it and I am getting it back. Why?
Because I own another gun and I put the fear of god in the scumbag.
Does that count as preventing a crime using a gun but not using it to kill?
Who knows who would have eventually got it out on the street and what it might have been used for. The police took a report and then did nothing, leaving a loaded gun out on the streets.

By the way I was shot and grazed in the head once because restrictive gun laws would not allow me to carry one for protection that night in 1984 Chicago.

One more time with feeling.....I am not suggesting disarmament, although I am sure after reading some of the responses here, that certain individuals shouldn't be allowed to own a gun..

You just support every measure that leads to disarmament. That kind of person shouldn't be allowed.


Ah, a ticket to Fantasyland for you. Iraq would seem like a picnic versus an invasion of Canada.

Why, because the populace is armed?

Poverty rate , social conditions and a drug problem . Thats what sets us apart from other nations with similar conditions concerning gun ownership .
Its easier to blame guns than to fix the others. Its called denial .
And the largely unchanging poverty rate itself can be traced to Johnson's implementation of his "Great Society"

And the largely unchanging poverty rate itself can be traced to Johnson's implementation of his "Great Society"
You want less criminals create less poverty . Do it in a way that doesnt piss too many people off ...like by taxing the shit out of them . Otherwise more people will want to be shooting ...because we will ALL be poor ..except for a few rich dudes who used to be filthy rich. But thats for another thread .
The bottom line is that gun controll is a myth . The only good gun controll is being able to hit what you aim at under adverse conditions . ;)

Could the cause be poverty rather than race?

The cause could be alot of things, that's my point. To say the murder rate difference is strictly due to availabily of guns has nothing to do with reality. I have quite a number of guns, none of which have ever killed anyone. And barrring any criminal acts intended against me, they never will.

Ah, a ticket to Fantasyland for you. Iraq would seem like a picnic versus an invasion of Canada.

Tough talk for a anti-gun socialist. Going to "regulate" us to death?

I agree with the drug problem. Personally I reckon the US should have the death penalty for smuggling and dealing hard drugs.


This is why people deal drugs. The black market makes it worthwhile. Prohibition created a black market for alcohol, and gave us the mafia. Drugs laws gave us drug cartels.

Ban something people want, and you will create a lucrative black market. This has never failed. Not once.

Why won't people ever learn?

Tough talk for a anti-gun socialist. Going to "regulate" us to death?
Well, I may be a little rusty but I know all the positions on a 105mm Howitzer, and I think I would still be able to squeeze the trigger of an FNC1 rifle.

Oh BTW, when you invade Canada, you would be taking on the Commonwealth of Nations, and NATO, to name a couple of biggies. :D

So, unless the US is looking at starting a world war, I would imagine that Canada is off limits. :)

Well, I may be a little rusty but I know all the positions on a 105mm Howitzer, and I think I would still be able to squeeze the trigger of an FNC1 rifle.

Oh BTW, when you invade Canada, you would be taking on the Commonwealth of Nations, and NATO, to name a couple of biggies. :D

So, unless the US is looking at starting a world war, I would imagine that Canada is off limits. :)
Yep, we missed our chance at Canada in 1812.

Well, I may be a little rusty but I know all the positions on a 105mm Howitzer, and I think I would still be able to squeeze the trigger of an FNC1 rifle.

Oh BTW, when you invade Canada, you would be taking on the Commonwealth of Nations, and NATO, to name a couple of biggies. :D

So, unless the US is looking at starting a world war, I would imagine that Canada is off limits. :)

Anyone messing with Moosehead is gonna have one angry rebellion on their hands with me leading it ... :D


Tough talk for a anti-gun socialist. Going to "regulate" us to death?

Gotta admit this cracked me the hell up .

Yes they may have a high unemployment rate but being Socialist their unemployed are not poverty stricken. When was the last time you saw a homeless person in France or Germany ? Their poverty rate is at what 6 to 8 percent ? compareed to the US ? And England the closest to the US is at 9 percent ? I'll go look but I know its lower from another thread.
that had me looking it up .

well this is from an article that I cant fact check but...since the poverty rate doesnt jive with all of the other figures I have seen.. :rolleyes: it says 17 ..I dont even have figures from Democrats that are higher than 14 .

United States 17.1%
Canada 12.6
United Kingdom 9.7
Switzerland 8.5
Germany 5.6
Sweden 5.3
Norway 5.2
Those figures look correct, except for the UK, which is about the same as Canada. Try the Human Development Reports (http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/hdi_rank_map.cfm).

Yep, we missed our chance at Canada in 1812.
So did Canada. :D

Anyone messing with Moosehead is gonna have one angry rebellion on their hands with me leading it ... :D
Don't want to Amercanize Moosehead huh? Ya like having it imported?

Gotta admit this cracked me the hell up .
Actually, despite all the bluster in my rebuttal, I too found it humourous. :D

Don't want to Amercanize Moosehead huh? Ya like having it imported?


Actually, despite all the bluster in my rebuttal, I too found it humourous. :D

Everyone knows Imported beer is best... ;) well Yuengling lager gives good head and some other domestic..low production... beers . But for the most part its Imports for my beer . Duval from Belgium ( sent to me by a Belgium friend :D ) is from heaven .

Those figures look correct, except for the UK, which is about the same as Canada. Try the Human Development Reports (http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/hdi_rank_map.cfm).


The US figure is too high . the others match most of my other sources within one percent. The problem is their all on adobe or downloads with graphs and stuff . Cant link or copy and paste without breaking my balls .

Originally Posted by CanuckHeaven
Ah, a ticket to Fantasyland for you. Iraq would seem like a picnic versus an invasion of Canada.
In fairness, it was a Canadian sniper who just posted the longest recorded kill. Nice job.

Canuck, you are stuck up there with a frozen brain. We have given you, as I have, (regardeless if you even read them) lots of stats, AND sources for those same stats. And ya know something - I have something you DON'T have - access to the criminal mindset. They don't fear police, they don't fear courts, they don't fear prison, they surely don't fear you, but they do fear one thing.

Canada - the only nation where lockdown prisons banned stabproof vests in fear they might "upset" the inmates, and show they weren't trusted. Check it out...truth.

Can't stand Moosehead - prefer "weak" American beers. I did like Esquimalt and Victoria Island back in 89, lots of babes. You do grow some pretty women up there, and they ALL seemed for sale. Gotta like that service minded mentality.


Oh, we wouldn't have to invade, merely make an official position of supporting Quebec's constant want for independance....and offer limited assistance. Now THAt could be fun to watch.....

In fairness, it was a Canadian sniper who just posted the longest recorded kill. Nice job.

Canuck, you are stuck up there with a frozen brain. We have given you, as I have, (regardeless if you even read them) lots of stats, AND sources for those same stats. And ya know something - I have something you DON'T have - access to the criminal mindset. They don't fear police, they don't fear courts, they don't fear prison, they surely don't fear you, but they do fear one thing.

Canada - the only nation where lockdown prisons banned stabproof vests in fear they might "upset" the inmates, and show they weren't trusted. Check it out...truth.

Can't stand Moosehead - prefer "weak" American beers. I did like Esquimalt and Victoria Island back in 89, lots of babes. You do grow some pretty women up there, and they ALL seemed for sale. Gotta like that service minded mentality.


Oh, we wouldn't have to invade, merely make an official position of supporting Quebec's constant want for independance....and offer limited assistance. Now THAt could be fun to watch.....

But they are FRENCH ? Could you do that ? :D I would support Canada invading them . Call it the " quiche wars " . AKA " the second American revolution . Who will win ? quebec is surrounded by Mounties ...it seems a fight has broken out among the Quebecois ....They are demanding another referendum to decide what the new referendum will say ...the mounties sit back with a cold brew and enjoy the view as the 76 political parties attempt to decide the new course for the government ( ?) .

Well, I may be a little rusty but I know all the positions on a 105mm Howitzer, and I think I would still be able to squeeze the trigger of an FNC1 rifle.

Oh BTW, when you invade Canada, you would be taking on the Commonwealth of Nations, and NATO, to name a couple of biggies. :D

So, unless the US is looking at starting a world war, I would imagine that Canada is off limits. :)

What would anyone want with Canada anyway?

But they are FRENCH ? Could you do that ? :D I would support Canada invading them . Call it the " quiche wars " . AKA " the second American revolution . Who will win ? quebec is surrounded by Mounties ...it seems a fight has broken out among the Quebecois ....They are demanding another referendum to decide what the new referendum will say ...the mounties sit back with a cold brew and enjoy the view as the 76 political parties attempt to decide the new course for the government ( ?) .
Yup, that just about sums it up. :D

What would anyone want with Canada anyway?
Oh... lotsa stuff. Like I'm gonna spill the beans about the diamonds and gold and platinum and fissionable ores...

Damn! Me and my big mouth. Oh well, At least I didn't mention the secret enchanted unicorn preserves...

Damn!

Oh... lotsa stuff. Like I'm gonna spill the beans about the diamonds and gold and platinum and fissionable ores...

Damn! Me and my big mouth. Oh well, At least I didn't mention the secret enchanted unicorn preserves...

Damn!
http://www.shoujorobot.com/archival/sadatroll.gif

Hey Dobbs....TG for ya. :)

Oh BTW, when you invade Canada, you would be taking on the Commonwealth of Nations, and NATO, to name a couple of biggies. :D


The Commonwealth has done exactly as they've been told for sometime. Hell, with one phone call You had Blair on his knees lying to his own people when Bush snapped his fingers.

And NATO is looking for new funding sources. How much do you think the US would have to shell out to get those toadies to do whatever Bush wanted? Except France. But who really cares about France anyways?

You live under the illusion that all these people aren't politicians, and that politicians aren't whores. Look at how many countries whored themselves out in Iraq.

http://www.shoujorobot.com/archival/sadatroll.gif

You don't mind if I steal that do ya?

The Commonwealth has done exactly as they've been told for sometime.
Most interesting comment.

Hell, with one phone call You had Blair on his knees lying to his own people when Bush snapped his fingers.
Nice way to talk about your ally.

And NATO is looking for new funding sources. How much do you think the US would have to shell out to get those toadies to do whatever Bush wanted? Except France. But who really cares about France anyways?
Bush has been making a lot of enemies amongst his NATO allies, and if you recall, when WW 1 and WW 2 broke out, Canada was there from the start. I think you might overestimate your importance?

You live under the illusion that all these people aren't politicians, and that politicians aren't whores. Look at how many countries whored themselves out in Iraq.
The illusion is all yours, since you brought forward the improbability of an American invasion of Canada. At first I thought you were joking, and laughed, but it appears that you were more serious than I thought. Unless something gets severely out of whack, you won't see such an occurrence in your lifetime. :D

He must be from Texas they are all nuts anyway...maybe we can get them to attack Mexico again ? Keep them busy for a few days anyway . :D
leave Canada alone dammit ! My buddies that make beer live there and my cousins who cant drive worth a shit... Hey Attilio whats up ? ......why cant you guys drive ? Whats up with that ? And Whats up with this thousand Islands crap I thought it was salad dressing..Suit saint Marie or something..I didnt see no suit or a thousand Islands or any salad..bunch of crazy driving beer makin liars you are ! :eek:

Oh... lotsa stuff. Like I'm gonna spill the beans about the diamonds and gold and platinum and fissionable ores...

Damn! Me and my big mouth. Oh well, At least I didn't mention the secret enchanted unicorn preserves...

Damn!

Ooooh, Unicorns...bet I could pick up all kindsa chicks if I had one of those...

To Canada!

You don't mind if I steal that do ya?
Steal away....I stole.....er borrowed it from Google images (http://images.google.ca/images?q=don%27t+feed+the+trolls&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images). :)

Steal away....I stole.....er borrowed it from Google images (http://images.google.ca/images?q=don%27t+feed+the+trolls&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images). :)

umm lyrics from a Led zepelin song ? The steal away part...thats code right ?

Nooo the police will protect you... no need to arm yourself! Some eggs must be broken to make a nice police state omelette!

give me a break!!! you can't depend on the government all the time. take you own action if you need, but please shoot the person the some place like that hand and knees. i guess we had better start investing in sharp-shooting classes!!!

shooting in these stategic locations will work for everyone except the jesus.... cause he already has holes there!!