Would this effect terrorism? [Archive]

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 05:11

For all you loonys without a clue. this is what one crop of terrorist dickheads wants. cant wait to see the society after the looneys give in .

Observer Worldview Extra

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

Observer Worldview

Sunday November 24, 2002

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised

Read it and let it sink in . there's your new world . you want to live in it ? because you have no spine . You deserve them .

Kll each and every one of them . Track them down and exterminate them and whomever would give them support .

The Nazz

22-09-2005, 05:14

Kll each and every one of them . Track them down and exterminate them and whomever would give them support .
You still haven't explained how you'll go about doing that without creating more of them, as history shows you inevitably will. Oh, but that's right--you live in a magical world of fairies and elves and where George W Bush is actually competent.

Utracia

22-09-2005, 05:16

For all you loonys without a clue. this is what one crop of terrorist dickheads wants. cant wait to see the society after the looneys give in .

Read it and let it sink in . there's your new world . you want to live in it ? because you have no spine . You deserve them .

Kll each and every one of them . Track them down and exterminate them and whomever would give them support .

Even should I agree with this, the best way to do this is to use Special Forces units to attack terrorists. Occuping countries is the wrong way to go about it since it just rouses the populace and drives the terrorists farther underground.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 05:20

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

Wake up . Thats your alternative . They will be dead or you will live like this.
Thats the choice THEY gave you . Start studying to be a moslem and get ready to exterminate the jews like they want you to . and be sure to figure out how to live without " usery " intrest for the uninformed...who needs capitalist anyway..practice your beheading on the infidels.

It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

so much for western civilization....can I still get my MTV ?...idiots..

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Personal freedom is way over rated . who needs it !

The Nazz

22-09-2005, 05:25

So in other words, Beer and Guns, you've got nothing. Just as long as we're clear on that.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 05:26

Even should I agree with this, the best way to do this is to use Special Forces units to attack terrorists. Occuping countries is the wrong way to go about it since it just rouses the populace and drives the terrorists farther underground.

Then pour gas in the hole and light it . They want there oil back anyway .

You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

Why make laws ? They have laws to give us ! Why would we want our own ? freedom is over rated.

I want to piss in the hole before you throw the match .

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 05:28

So in other words, Beer and Guns, you've got nothing. Just as long as we're clear on that.

I have the balls to stand up to these idiots . You seem to be lacking in that department .
Go make nice with your buddys they have a book for you to study .

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

No more women in the work place ! More jobs for men !

Utracia

22-09-2005, 05:32

Then pour gas in the hole and light it . They want there oil back anyway .

Why make laws ? They have laws to give us ! Why would we want our own ? freedom is over rated.

I want to piss in the hole before you throw the match .

You have an amazing attitude. I guess freedom is secondary to you? Bring this type of idea to America would probably be fine with you and the 1st, 4th and 6th amendments would just be annoying roadblocks to your kind of justice right?

Andaluciae

22-09-2005, 05:35

Wouldn't work, for several reasons. First and foremost is that, despite their stated goal, Islamic Terrorism is first and foremost a hyper-reactionary movement. The changes brought about by increased contact with western culture in the forms of McDonalds, Barbies, Coca Cola, Satellite Television, Jet Airliner travel, and dozens of other things have created a nasty reaction amongst many in the region, what took the west 400 years to handle is hammering the middle east in the space of meager decades.

And on top of that, not all terrorists are Islamic. You gotta remember that, the IRA is chiefly composed of Catholics, Neo-Nazis are composed of white dudes, and god knows that there's plenty of other groups, ranging from deranged anarchists to McVeigh types to the Backstreet Boys. Pulling out of the middle east would only embolden them.

The Nazz

22-09-2005, 05:36

I have the balls to stand up to these idiots . You seem to be lacking in that department .
Go make nice with your buddys they have a book for you to study .
See now, that's where you're wrong. Just because I understand that wiping them out is not a realistic option doesn't mean I believe in appeasement. But then again, I'm not surprised that you would see any deviation from your own limited worldview as anything else.

By the way--exactly how are you demonstrating that you "have the balls to stand up to these idiots?" By posting on this forum? That'll scare them straight, by golly. :rolleyes:

By the way, in case you missed it--I'm mocking you.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 05:37

You have an amazing attitude. I guess freedom is secondary to you? Bring this type of idea to America would probably be fine with you and the 1st, 4th and 6th amendments would just be annoying roadblocks to your kind of justice right?

what part of the word WAR do you not understand the W the A or the R ?

The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

Kill each and every terrorist and those who support them . That statement has everything to do with the ammendments ..all of them ..I like them and want to keep them . Do you ?

Andaluciae

22-09-2005, 05:41

I also know what would help lessen terrorism, a reformation amongst Islam (followed by an enlightenment, Renaissance and the rest of the good things that happened to western europe.)

Utracia

22-09-2005, 05:41

what part of the word WAR do you not understand the W the A or the R ?

War makes it ok to cut back on civil rights? I understand that in war it always happens but that certainly doesn't make it right. To me if anything rights should be held even more dear during times of crisis. While going for the terrorists we cannot let others get caught in the crossfire with oppressive measures.

OK Allen

22-09-2005, 05:44

You still haven't explained how you'll go about doing that without creating more of them, as history shows you inevitably will. Oh, but that's right--you live in a magical world of fairies and elves and where George W Bush is actually competent.

You are amazing. Amen, brother.

The Nazz

22-09-2005, 05:45

You are amazing. Amen, brother.
De nada. Am I dreaming or is your nation named after Huey Long's successor as governor of Louisiana?

Andaluciae

22-09-2005, 05:46

Short of total war (WWII style) it is impossible to break an ideology. And I don't feel that anyone around here is up to a total war. The best we can hope for is to distract terrorists elsewhere.

Genshihou

22-09-2005, 05:47

Yes, definately. They would no longer have a reason to attack.

However, I know for a fact that this will not happen, because the US doesn't want to appear "weak".

Strength is not dependant solely on your ability to win a fight, but also your ability to admit when you're wrong and back off.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 05:50

Actually Islam is one of the most , if not the most , enlightened religions on the planet. These crazy bastards have perverted it to suit their view of the world . Introducing democracy and helping the countrys in the middle east to get rid of the abject poverty that a huge amount of the terrorist base comes from will be a start . what the looneys do not realise is whats going on in Iraq and Afghanistan is a start on the right path . The next step is to get rid of the other dictators and despots that the US has been supporting for years by peacefull means and back the people who want democracy..like we did in Lebanon and Egypt recently. Getting Isreal to deal in good faith with Palestine is a start . A free demcratic Palestine will go a long way towards satisfying reasonable Islamist . Thats for the long run.
The only way to deal with the other looneys is to exterminate them before they kill themselves in your living room by blowing themselves up . Or just run around beheading people for being Jews or from the west . Or for breathing wrong..facing the wrong way etc.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 05:56

War makes it ok to cut back on civil rights? I understand that in war it always happens but that certainly doesn't make it right. To me if anything rights should be held even more dear during times of crisis. While going for the terrorists we cannot let others get caught in the crossfire with oppressive measures.

What the hell are you talking about civil rights ? Who's civil rights ? The dickheads that fly airplanes full of people into buildings ? They have the right to be dead . They gave up there rights to live by declaring war on our whole society .
Excuse me Osama you have the right to remain silent..put that AK 47 down while I read you your rights ...ummm Osama that sword looks sharp...ummm I have civil rights ..the rights not to have my head cut off is one ...ummm I think..

You are joking right ? I need to get an e-mail over to the Marines to ask how the civil rights gig is going .

You have got to be kidding me .

Utracia

22-09-2005, 06:01

What the hell are you talking about civil rights ? Who's civil rights ? The dickheads that fly airplanes full of people into buildings ? They have the right to be dead . They gave up there rights to live by declaring war on our whole society .
Excuse me Osama you have the right to remain silent..put that AK 47 down while I read you your rights ...ummm Osama that sword looks sharp...ummm I have civil rights ..the rights not to have my head cut off is one ...ummm I think..

You are joking right ? I need to get an e-mail over to the Marines to ask how the civil rights gig is going .

You have got to be kidding me .

Hell, kill the terrorists. It just seems that others always seem to suffer also in the quest to go after the terrorists. Collateral damage. Of course none of this would be an issue if the US wasn't so eager to involve itself in the Middle East. The terrorists wouldn't be so eager to attack America if we didn't send our arrogant policies around the world.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 06:14

Hell, kill the terrorists. It just seems that others always seem to suffer also in the quest to go after the terrorists. Collateral damage. Of course none of this would be an issue if the US wasn't so eager to involve itself in the Middle East. The terrorists wouldn't be so eager to attack America if we didn't send our arrogant policies around the world.

And you keep telling yourself that . Dont accept the guys OWN WORDS .
Just like Mein Kampf NO ONE believed it or bothered to read it. " He just wants Austria " then he will stop ." ...No one could be putting PEOPLE in ovens thats crazy..it just propaganda to get us to hate Germans...
You have a guy telling you what he is going to do ..HE CONVINCES PEOPLE TO FLY AIRPLANES FULL OF PEOPLE INTO BUILDINGS . His followers think a good day at work is a filmed beheading to post on the internet.
Did you watch the video of Daniel Berg having his head sawed off while he was living ? You continue to think you can appease them..bargain with them like a civilised person . WAKE UP will you . READ his words . Thats HIS reality . he could care less what you think about CIVIL rights . Civilization is what he says it is . He and his followers would gut you like a pig and post you on al - jezeria . And his supporters will go out in the streets and cheer .
You can be first in line to go talk peace .
Thats why he's still alive . We are being way too civilised about it. sit back and wait for the next buses to blow up and the next building to fall . While you worry about what he wants.

Schrandtopia

22-09-2005, 06:21

Not under Bush but perhaps the next President will do something radical since current meathods aren't working.

interesting, when was the last terrorist attack on the US?

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 06:25

They seem to be occupied with getting killed in Iraq a bit . Except for the ones looking for a new cave to hide in. but dont tell anyone its a secret. It dosnt work ...you are imagining things . ;)

Utracia

22-09-2005, 06:26

And you keep telling yourself that . Dont accept the guys OWN WORDS .
Just like Mein Kampf NO ONE believed it or bothered to read it. " He just wants Austria " then he will stop ." ...No one could be putting PEOPLE in ovens thats crazy..it just propaganda to get us to hate Germans...
You have a guy telling you what he is going to do ..HE CONVINCES PEOPLE TO FLY AIRPLANES FULL OF PEOPLE INTO BUILDINGS . His followers think a good day at work is a filmed beheading to post on the internet.
Did you watch the video of Daniel Berg having his head sawed off while he was living ? You continue to think you can appease them..bargain with them like a civilised person . WAKE UP will you . READ his words . Thats HIS reality . he could care less what you think about CIVIL rights . Civilization is what he says it is . He and his followers would gut you like a pig and post you on al - jezeria . And his supporters will go out in the streets and cheer .
You can be first in line to go talk peace .
Thats why he's still alive . We are being way too civilised about it. sit back and wait for the next buses to blow up and the next building to fall . While you worry about what he wants.

Simply trying to go off and kill the crazies isn't enough, they are like cockroaches, no matter how many you kill there are plenty more to replace them. We really need to do something about the poverty in the region, change foreign policy and stop trying to change their way of life to suit our American ideals. Perhaps if we do these things then terrorists like Osama will find getting new recruits a hard thing to do.

Schrandtopia

22-09-2005, 06:31

Simply trying to go off and kill the crazies isn't enough, they are like cockroaches, no matter how many you kill there are plenty more to replace them.

thats true with just about everything our government does; there will always be drug dealing, there will always be poverty, there will always be ignorence - if we give up just because something will never be totally over then why bother at anything?

We really need to do something about the poverty in the region,

why not do both?

change foreign policy

if we change our policy because they attacked us how do they not win in the scenario?

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 06:37

Simply trying to go off and kill the crazies isn't enough, they are like cockroaches, no matter how many you kill there are plenty more to replace them. We really need to do something about the poverty in the region, change foreign policy and stop trying to change their way of life to suit our American ideals. Perhaps if we do these things then terrorists like Osama will find getting new recruits a hard thing to do.

You still did not read what he wants . What they demand from us. Either that or you choose to delude yourself .

Actually Islam is one of the most , if not the most , enlightened religions on the planet. These crazy bastards have perverted it to suit their view of the world . Introducing democracy and helping the countrys in the middle east to get rid of the abject poverty that a huge amount of the terrorist base comes from will be a start . what the looneys do not realise is whats going on in Iraq and Afghanistan is a start on the right path . The next step is to get rid of the other dictators and despots that the US has been supporting for years by peacefull means and back the people who want democracy..like we did in Lebanon and Egypt recently. Getting Isreal to deal in good faith with Palestine is a start . A free demcratic Palestine will go a long way towards satisfying reasonable Islamist . Thats for the long run.
The only way to deal with the other looneys is to exterminate them before they kill themselves in your living room by blowing themselves up . Or just run around beheading people for being Jews or from the west . Or for breathing wrong..facing the wrong way etc.

This is what we are trying to do . You have roaches you kill them until you dont have roaches any more . If they come back you kill them again . Its hard to get rid of roaches , but its done every day !

This is from 1998 no one listened . No one paid attention . Just like you they didnt believe they mean what they say .

23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."

Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith

Wake up .

Utracia

22-09-2005, 06:40

thats true with just about everything our government does; there will always be drug dealing, there will always be poverty, there will always be ignorence - if we give up just because something will never be totally over then why bother at anything?

I didn't say give up. It just seems to be clear that simply using the military is only a reactionary measure. You kill terrorists, good for you but you don't go after the cause. Changing the way the people of the Middle East feel about us needs to occur and installing a puppet government in Iraq (through the guise of elections of course) is hardly the way to go about that goal.

Utracia

22-09-2005, 06:42

Wake up .

I am quite aware that terrorists pose a threat. What I am trying to point out is that we need more measures then simply the hammer.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 06:42

From 1996 ! Wake up !!

Some history...in case you missed it .

This group is allegedly responsible for bombing the World Trade Center in New York in 1993 and the Egyptian Embassy in Pakistan two years later. They are suspected of attacking U.S.-run facilities in Saudi Arabia. They tried to kill Egypt's president in Ethiopia. They have fought in wars and insurgencies in some of the world's most troubled spots -- Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir and Tajikistan. A group was organized by Bin Laden in early 1998, with leaders from Pakistan and Egypt, called the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaderssent the following message: "Strikes will continue from everywhere, and Islamic groups will appear one after the other to fight American interests.'' The statement was published in Al-Ayyam. In a Fatwa faxed to the London newspaper Al-Quds, the group also wrote: `We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it,''

In August 7, 1998, his group was allegedly responsible for bombing US facilities in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In retaliation, the US bombed his camps near the Pakistani border, as well as a pharmaceuticals plant in Sudan, with no effect other than then killing innocent people. The fanatic Taliban rulers of Afghanistan assured the world after the bombings: Osama Bin Laden ``is safe and no damage has been done to any of his companions.''

Bin Laden had been living in Afghanistan with the permission of the Taliban, who controlled most of the country. In areas under Taliban control, women are confined to the home, girls are denied education, and television, movies and books have been banned. The Taliban caused a stir by destroying two ancient statues of Buddha recently. A recent edict forces special dress for non-Moslems. Christians accused of missionary activity were recently sentenced to death, but allowed to leave the country. Thieves have their hands cut off and murderers are executed in public. The Taleban were vanquished in the US-led invasion in October 2001, but Osama bin Laden was not captured, and is apparently alive. Several videotapes and recordings believed to be authentic messages of Osama Bin Laden were issued since the US attack.

The world had ample warning of Osama's plans, since his earliest Declaration of War against the Americans in 1996, and the other fatwahs reproduced below.

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Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" 1996
(This Fatwa was redistributed in 1998)
Our youths believe in paradise after death. They believe that taking part in fighting will not bring their day nearer; and staying behind will not postpone their day either. Exalted be to Allah who said: {And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah, the term is fixed} (Aal Imraan; 3:145). Our youths believe in the saying of the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him): "O boy, I teach a few words; guard (guard the cause of, keep the commandments of) Allah, then He guards you, guard (the cause of ) Allah, then He will be with you; if you ask (for your need) ask Allah, if you seek assistance, seek Allah's; and know definitely that if the Whole World gathered to (bestow) profit on you they will not profit you except with what was determined for you by Allah, and if they gathered to harm you they will not harm you except with what has been determined for you by Allah; Pen lifted, papers dried, it is fixed nothing in these truths can be changed" Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. Our youths took note of the meaning of the poetic verse:

"if death is a predetermined must, then it is a shame to die cowardly."

and the other poet saying:

" Who do not die by the sword will die for other reasons; many causes are there but one death".

These youths believe in what has been told by Allah and His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) about the greatness of the reward for the Mujahideen and Martyrs; Allah, the most exalted said: {and -so far- those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish. He will guide them and improve their condition. and cause them to enter the garden -paradise- which He has made known to them}. (Muhammad; 47:4-6). Allah the Exalted also said: {and do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay -they are- alive, but you do not perceive} (Bagarah; 2:154). His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) said: "for those who strive in His cause Allah prepared hundred degrees (levels) in paradise; in-between two degrees as the in-between heaven and earth". Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) also said: "the best of the martyrs are those who do NOT turn their faces away from the battle till they are killed. They are in the high level of Jannah (paradise). Their Lord laughs to them ( in pleasure) and when your Lord laughs to a slave of His, He will not hold him to an account". narrated by Ahmad with correct and trustworthy reference. And : "a martyr will not feel the pain of death except like how you feel when you are pinched". Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. He also said : "a martyr privileges are guaranteed by Allah; forgiveness with the first gush of his blood, he will be shown his seat in paradise, he will be decorated with the jewels of belief (Imaan), married off to the beautiful ones, protected from the test in the grave, assured security in the day of judgement, crowned with the crown of dignity, a ruby of which is better than this whole world (Duniah) and its' entire content, wedded to seventy two of the pure Houries (beautiful ones of Paradise) and his intercession on the behalf of seventy of his relatives will be accepted". narrated by Ahmad and At-Tirmithi (with the correct and trustworthy reference).

Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.

Our youths chanting and reciting the word of Allah, the most exalted: {fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the heart of a believing people} (At-Taubah; 9:14) and the words of the prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM): "I swear by Him, who has my soul in His hand, that no man get killed fighting them today, patiently attacking and not retreating ,surely Allah will let him into paradise". And his (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) saying to them: "get up to a paradise as wide as heaven and earth".

The youths also reciting the All Mighty words of: {so when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks........} (Muhammad; 47:19).

Those youths will not ask you (William Perry) for explanations, they will tell you singing

there is nothing between us need to be explained, there is only killing and neck smiting.

And they will say to you what their grand father, Haroon Ar-Rasheed, Ameer-ul-Mu'meneen, replied to your grandfather, Nagfoor, the Byzantine emperor, when he threatened the Muslims: "from Haroon Ar-Rasheed, Ameer-ul-Mu'meneen, to Nagfoor, the dog of the Romans; the answer is what you will see not what you hear". Haroon El-Rasheed led the armies of Islam to the battle and handed Nagfoor a devastating defeat.

The youths you called cowards are competing among themselves for fighting and killing you. reciting what one of them said:

The crusader army became dust when we detonated al-Khobar With courageous youth of Islam fearing no danger If (they are) threatened: The tyrants will kill you, they reply my death is a victory I did not betrayed that king, he did betray our Qiblah And he permitted in the holy country the most filthy sort of humans. I have made an oath by Allah, the Great, to fight who ever rejected the faith

For more than a decade, they carried arms on their shoulders in Afghanistan and they have made vows to Allah that as long as they are alive, they will continue to carry arms against you until you are -Allah willing- expelled, defeated and humiliated, they will carry on as long as they live saying:

O William, tomorrow you will know which young man is confronting your misguided brethren! A youth fighting in smile, returning with the spear coloured red.

May Allah keep me close to knights, humans in peace, demons in war. Lions in Jungle but their teeth are spears and Indian swords. The horses witness that I push them hard forwarded in the fire of battle. The dust of the battle bears witnesses for me, so also the fighting itself, the pens and the books!

So to abuse the grandsons of the companions, may Allah be pleased with them, by calling them cowards and challenging them by refusing to leave the land of the two Holy Places shows the insanity and the imbalance you are suffering from. Its appropriate 'remedy ,however, is in the hands of the youths of Islam, as the poet said:

I am willing to sacrifice self and wealth for knights who never disappointed me Knights who are never fed up or deterred by death, even if the mill of war turns In the heat of battle they do not care, and cure the insanity of the enemy by their 'insane' courage.

Terrorising you, while you are carrying arms on our land, is a legitimate and morally demanded duty. It is a legitimate right well known to all humans and other creatures. Your example and our example is like a snake which entered into a house of a man and got killed by him. The coward is the one who lets you walk, while carrying arms, freely on his land and provides you with peace and security.

Those youths are different from your soldiers. Your problem will be how to convince your troops to fight, while our problem will be how to restrain our youths to wait for their turn in fighting and in operations. These youths are worthy of commendation and praise. They stood up tall to defend the religion; at the time when the government misled the prominent scholars and tricked them into issuing Fatwas (that have no basis neither in the book of Allah, nor in the Sunnah of His prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him)) of opening the land of the two Holy Places for the Christians armies and handing the Al-Aqsa Mosque to the Zionists. Twisting the meanings of the holy text will not change this fact at all. They deserve the praise of the poet:

I rejected all the critics, who chose the wrong way I rejected those who enjoy fireplaces in clubs discussing eternally. I rejected those, who in spite of being lost, think they are at the goal, I respect those who carried on not asking or bothering about the difficulties, never letting up from their goals, despite all hardships of the road, whose blood is the oil for the flame guiding in the darkness of confusion. I feel still the pain of (the loss) Al-Quds in my internal organs. That loss is like a burning fire in my intestines I did not betray my covenant with God, when even states did betray it!

As their grandfather Assim Bin Thabit said rejecting a surrender offer of the pagans:

"What for an excuse I had to surrender, while I am still able, having arrows and my bow having a tough string?! Death is truth and ultimate destiny, and life will end any way. If I do not fight you, then my mother must be insane!"

The youths hold you responsible for all of the killings and evictions of the Muslims and the violation of the sanctities, carried out by your Zionist brothers in Lebanon; you openly supplied them with arms and finance. More than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression (sanction) imposed on Iraq and its nation. The children of Iraq are our children. You, the USA, together with the Saudi regime are responsible for the shedding of the blood of these innocent children. Due to all of that, what ever treaty you have with our country is now null and void. The treaty of Hudaybiyyah was cancelled by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) once Quraysh had assisted Bani Bakr against Khusa'ah , the allies of the prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him). The prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) fought Quraysh and concurred Makka. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) considered the treaty with Bani Qainuqa' void because one of their Jews publicly hurt one Muslim woman, one single woman, at the market. Let alone then, the killing you caused to hundred of thousands Muslims and occupying their sanctities. It is now clear that those who claim that the blood of the American solders (the enemy occupying the land of the Muslims) should be protected are merely repeating what is imposed on them by the regime; fearing the aggression and interested in saving themselves. It is a duty now on every tribe in the Arab Peninsula to fight, Jihad, in the cause of Allah and to cleanse the land from those occupiers. Allah knows that there blood is permitted (to be spilled) and their wealth is a booty; their wealth is a booty to those who kill them. The most Exalted said in the verse of As-Sayef, The Sword: {so when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters where ever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush} (At-Tauba; 9:5). Our youths knew that the humiliation suffered by the Muslims as a result of the occupation of their sanctities can not be kicked and removed except by explosions and Jihad. As the poet said:

The walls of oppression and humiliation cannot be demolished except in a rain of bullets. The freeman does not surrender leadership to infidels and sinners Without shedding blood no degradation and branding can be removed from the forehead.

I remind the youths of the Islamic world, who fought in Afghanistan and Bosnia-Herzegovina with their wealth, pens, tongues and themselves that the battle had not finished yet. I remind them about the talk between Jibreel (Gabriel) and the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on both of them) after the battle of Ahzab when the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) returned to Medina and before putting his sword aside; when Jibreel (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) descend saying: "are you putting your sword aside? by Allah the angels haven't dropped their arms yet; march with your companions to Bani Quraydah, I am (going) ahead of you to throw fears in their hearts and to shake their fortresses on them." Jibreel marched with the angels (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on them all), followed by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) marching with the immigrants, Muhajeroon, and supporters, Ansar. (narrated by Al-Bukhary).

These youths know that: if one is not to be killed one will die (anyway) and the most honourable death is to be killed in the way of Allah. They are even more determined after the martyrdom of the four heroes who bombed the Americans in Riyadh. Those youths who raised high the head of the Ummah and humiliated the Americans-the occupier- by their operation in Riyadh. They remember the poetry of Ja'far, the second commander in the battle of Mu'tah, in which three thousand Muslims faced over a hundred thousand Romans:

How good is the Paradise and its nearness, good with cool drink, But the Romans are promised punishment (in Hell), if I meet them I will fight them.

And the poetry of Abdullah Bin Rawaha, the third commander in the battle of Mu'tah, after the martyrdom of Ja'far, when he felt some hesitation:

O my soul if you do not get killed, you are going to die, anyway. This is death pool in front of you! You are getting what you have wished for (martyrdom) before, and you follow the example of the two previous commanders you are rightly guided!

As for our daughters, wives, sisters and mothers, they should take prime example from the prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) pious female companions, may Allah be pleased with them; they should adopt the life style (Seerah) of the female companions of courage, sacrifice and generosity in the cause of the supremacy of Allah's religion. They should remember the courage and the personality of Fatima, daughter of Khatab, when she accepted Islam and stood up in front of her brother, Omar Ibn Al-Khatab and challenged him (before he became a Muslim) saying: "O Omar , what will you do if the truth is not in your religion?!"

And to remember the stand of Asma', daughter of Abu Bakr, on the day of Hijra, when she attended the Messenger and his companion in the cave and split her belt in two pieces for them. And to remember the stand of Naseeba Bent Ka'b striving to defend the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) on the day of Uhud, in which she suffered twelve injuries, one of which was so deep leaving a deep lifelong scar! They should remember the generosity of the early woman of Islam who raised finance for the Muslims army by selling their jewellery. Our women had set a tremendous example of generosity in the cause of Allah; they motivated and encouraged their sons, brothers and husbands to fight- in the cause of Allah- in Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Chechenia and in other countries. We ask Allah to accept from them these deeds, and may He help their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons. May Allah strengthen the belief - Imaan - of our women in the way of generosity and sacrifice for the supremacy of the word of Allah. Our women weep not, except over men who fight in the cause of Allah; our women instigate their brothers to fight in the cause of Allah.

Our women bemoan only fighters in the cause of Allah, as said:

Do not moan on any one except a lion in the woods, courageous in the burning wars Let me die dignified in wars, honourable death is better than my current life

Our women encourage to Jihad saying:

Prepare yourself like a struggler, the matter is bigger than words! Are you going to leave us else for the wolves of Kufr eating our wings?! The wolves of Kufr are mobilising all evil persons from every where! Where are the freemen defending free women by the arms?! Death is better than life in humiliation! Some scandals and shames will never be otherwise eradicated.

My Muslim Brothers of The World:

Your brothers in Palestine and in the land of the two Holy Places are calling upon your help and asking you to take part in fighting against the enemy -your enemy and their enemy- the Americans and the Israelis. They are asking you to do whatever you can, with your own means and ability, to expel the enemy, humiliated and defeated, out of the sanctities of Islam. Exalted be to Allah said in His book: { and if they ask your support, because they are oppressed in their faith, then support them!} (Anfaal; 8:72)

O you horses (soldiers) of Allah ride and march on. This is the time of hardship so be tough. And know that your gathering and co-operation in order to liberate the sanctities of Islam is the right step toward unifying the word of the Ummah under the banner of "No God but Allah" ).

From our place we raise our palms humbly to Allah asking Him to bestow on us His guide in every aspects of this issue. Our Lord, we ask you to secure the release of the truthful scholars, Ulama, of Islam and pious youths of the Ummah from their imprisonment. O Allah, strengthen them and help their families.

Our Lord, the people of the cross had come with their horses (soldiers) and occupied the land of the two Holy places. And the Zionist Jews fiddling as they wish with the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the route of the ascendance of the messenger of Allah (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM). Our Lord, shatter their gathering, divide them among themselves, shaken the earth under their feet and give us control over them; Our Lord, we take refuge in you from their deeds and take you as a shield between us and them Our Lord, show us a black day in them! Our Lord, show us the wonderment of your ability in them! Our Lord, You are the Revealer of the book, Director of the clouds, You defeated the allies (Ahzab); defeat them and make us victorious over them. Our Lord, You are the one who help us and You are the one who assist us, with Your Power we move and by Your Power we fight. On You we rely and You are our cause. Our Lord, those youths got together to make Your religion victorious and raise Your banner. Our Lord, send them Your help and strengthen their hearts. Our Lord, make the youths of Islam steadfast and descend patience on them and guide their shots! Our Lord, unify the Muslims and bestow love among their hearts! Our Lord, pour down upon us patience, and make our steps firm and assist us against the unbelieving people! Our Lord, do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord, do not impose upon us that which we have no strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our patron, so help us against the unbelieving people. Our Lord, guide this Ummah, and make the right conditions (by which) the people of your obedience will be in dignity and the people of disobedience in humiliation, and by which the good deeds are enjoined and the bad deeds are forebode. Our Lord, bless Muhammad, Your slave and messenger, his family and descendants, and companions and salute him with a (becoming) salutation. And our last supplication is: All praise is due to Allah .

Usamah bin Muhammad bin Laden Friday, 9/4/1417 A.H (23/8/1996 AD) Hindukush Mountains, Khurasan, Afghanistan.

**Text Supplied by : Muhammad A. S. Al-Mass'ari; CDLR (Committee For the Defence of Civil Rights in Saudi Arabia

He has proven he will do as he says . WAKE UP !

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 06:46

The words of Bin Laden

"there is nothing between us need to be explained, there is only killing and neck smiting".

Appease that .

Wake up .

Utracia

22-09-2005, 06:56

I will simply have to repeat the points I made above. Besides no one even knows if Bin Laden is even still alive.

Swilatia

22-09-2005, 07:00

Leonstein

22-09-2005, 07:23

Utracia

22-09-2005, 07:28

I would say that those that are already "Terrorists", ie those that are already hell-bent on killing Americans, or destroying its influence would still go on.

But it would be very difficult indeed for them to find new recruits. So indeed, if you retreat, and instead put that money into "homeland security" and emergency response services, that would probably be a much better strategy to combat the threat of being blown up.

Emergency response services is just propaganda to keep up morale here at home. You actually think we could do anythink if a terrorist used a WMD against us? The stuff on the news to "protect" us is just window dressing. What happened in New Olreans should make this obvious of our disaster capabilities.

Leonstein

22-09-2005, 07:42

Emergency response services is just propaganda to keep up morale here at home. You actually think we could do anythink if a terrorist used a WMD against us? The stuff on the news to "protect" us is just window dressing. What happened in New Olreans should make this obvious of our disaster capabilities.
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved. I was very impressed with the way emergency services responded in London when it was attacked. There could have been plenty more victims, but the training etc actually paid off.
That being said, shooting Brazilians on their way to work is rather less smashing...

Omega the Black

22-09-2005, 08:04

I would be curious to find out what would happen to all the terrorists if the United States pulled out all of its troops from all Muslim countries. Not just Iraq but every single one anywhere in the world. If we did this, how would it effect terrorism? It seems that much of the complaining done by terrorists is that we are on Muslim soil where we have no right being. Along with this we would cut off all military aid to Isreal. Of course doing these things would have other consequences also but that is a different issue. I was just wondering if these radical actions would have any effect whatsoever on the terrorist danger. Terrorists could either glee over our withdraw and strike harder or perhaps feel satisfied we are not on their soil and propping up a Jewish state. What do you all think?
The "men" - and I use the word VERY loosely - behind the twisting of Islam are in it for their own glory and other reasons. This has nothing to do with their "sovereign" territories or Islam in the least. Osama bin Laden recruited hundreds to his "cause" yet he was personally worth millions, had multiple wives and was part of the ruling families of not one but two Islamic countries. (Though his birth family wanted nothing to do with him and he was expelled forever from Suadi Arabia) Do you think that not being involved in the Middle East would have stopped him?

Leonstein

22-09-2005, 08:29

Do you think that not being involved in the Middle East would have stopped him?
Maybe it would have made him enjoy his women and his money, rather than make him think there was some sort of higher calling?

Crendonia

22-09-2005, 08:44

How would the scenario in the OP stop people bombing abortion clinics, blowing up oil pipelines in Nigeria or seizing primary schools in Russia? It's all terrorism.

mm

Leonstein

22-09-2005, 08:47

It's all terrorism.
;)
Obviously. I just take this to mean Al Qaeda as a force that inspires people to attack Western targets.

Laerod

22-09-2005, 10:26

I would be curious to find out what would happen to all the terrorists if the United States pulled out all of its troops from all Muslim countries. Not just Iraq but every single one anywhere in the world. If we did this, how would it effect terrorism? It seems that much of the complaining done by terrorists is that we are on Muslim soil where we have no right being. Along with this we would cut off all military aid to Isreal. Of course doing these things would have other consequences also but that is a different issue. I was just wondering if these radical actions would have any effect whatsoever on the terrorist danger. Terrorists could either glee over our withdraw and strike harder or perhaps feel satisfied we are not on their soil and propping up a Jewish state. What do you all think?That's a very good question. It would certainly accomplish most of the goals of terrorism and the US probably wouldn't be considered the "Great Satan" anymore. Then again, the goal of making (fundamentalist) Islam the world's only religion would not be accomplished, and islamic terrorism could well continue.
Whatever the outcome, it would be celebrated as a major victory by anyone that hates the US.

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 13:15

terrorismm would be greatly reduced, as most terrorist attacks are "punishment" for having troops in islamic nations, since during the London bombings, the terrorists said "we have punished britian for having troops near us. Anyone who still has their troops near us will be punished the same way".

Another fool who chooses not to read the words of the group that would kill him .
Wake up.

The words of Bin Laden

Quote:
"there is nothing between us need to be explained, there is only killing and neck smiting".

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

Luporum

22-09-2005, 13:43

Alinania

22-09-2005, 13:45

No matter what you do there's going to be a group of fundies trying to blow someone up because they worship another invisible man.

It may be a long and bloody conflict but relieving the world of terrorists is a worthy cause.
Yup. Eternal war, then! Awesome! Let's kill each other until every last human is dead. Truly, a worthy cause. [/sarcasm]

Detruss

22-09-2005, 13:52

Thelona

22-09-2005, 14:14

Another fool who chooses not to read the words of the group that would kill him .
Wake up.

The words of Bin Laden

Quote:
"there is nothing between us need to be explained, there is only killing and neck smiting".

So what? Just because he says something doesn't mean he can effect it. He's an extremist who started out with a small following.

The reason he's a force in the world today is precisely due to the actions you are advocating.

Luporum

22-09-2005, 19:35

Yup. Eternal war, then! Awesome! Let's kill each other until every last human is dead. Truly, a worthy cause. [/sarcasm]

So what's your proposal, tuck your tail between your legs and start reading the Quran until your a good little Muslim like they want? Because that's working very well for the Shiites in Iraq.

If you want peace, prepare for war.

Talaax

22-09-2005, 20:31

Personally, I don't think it would stop them, it would slow them down, but not stop them. This group want to replace the Western world with an Islamic Caliphate, simply reading the articles provided by Beer and Guns proves this. As such, they wouldn't just stop trying to achieve that goal because we went home. However, it would certainly undermine recruiting efforts because it would likely make many Muslims less angry at us and less willing to attempt to kill us.

As for the secondary argument here, about how best to deal with terrorism, I agree with those who advocate "attacking" the source of the anger that leads to people joining Islamist terror groups. I, personally, am a rather devout pacifist. I do not condone violence in any form. Because of this fact, I believe that you Beer and Guns are wrong in your suggestions about how best to deal with Islamist terror. Now, this is not to say that I do not respect your opinion or you yourself. Quite the contrary, actually, I completely respect your opinion and can easily see how you can hold that opinion. It is completely understandable. I'm sure if I had experiences terrorism as personally as you seem to have, I would share your opinion. Fortunately I have not, in that I am lucky and very grateful. However, this doesn't change the fact that I fundamentally disagree with you. As others have stated, albeit in a seemingly more frustrated and hostile manner, killing terrorists and bombing countries serves only to perpetuate terrorism. Kill one, you create a martyr and ten more jump up to take is place. This fact alone should preclude killing from any reasonable method of dealing with terror. Killing is, one could argue, stooping to "their level". Are they not killing us? Killing them is simply indulging in their barbarity. What good does that do?

The solution, to me, is to deal with the problems that lead respectible, reasonable Muslim men and women to hate the Western World so much that they are willing to die to destroy it. Our effort should not be placed into indentifying, tracking, hunting down and killing each and every Islamist terrorist. It should be placed in dealing with the rampant poverty and despotism of the Middle East. If we take away the conditions that convince people to join terror groups, then there will be no terror groups or at least less of them. I agree with you in one respect, that being that at least some of these people would still wish to fight on and cannot be negotiated with. It is these people that, regretfully, would have to die but only after all peaceful means had been exhausted and conditions that would lead others to want to follow in their foot steps were eliminated. That, in a long and rambling way, is my opinion on the matter.

Once again, I do not wish to imply disrespect to anyone with a different opinion specifically you Beer and Guns. I am simply voicing my own opinion and you have every right to disagree with me. In fact, I would encourage you to disagree with me and excersize your right to do so.

Utracia

22-09-2005, 21:18

Let's see... we don't have any terrorist attacks in Slovenia; noone is scared that anything will happen. Let's analyze this situation further... we have majority of catholics (70%), we have some muslims, some jewish people, atheists,... and some religions I've never even heard of. But we have no religious extremism! Simply because all religions and beliefs are discriminated in the same way :p , no one religion can claim that another has had prefferential treatment :D
Seriously; in 50 years of socialism we beat the church out of the affairs of the state (as far as it is possible without infringing on people's rights)... and in the last couple hundred years we didn't bug anyone all that much (a.k.a. staying out of other people's business).

Sounds like a pefect recipe for a country without terrorism :cool:

I doubt Slovenia is as deep into the Middle East as the United States is. I doubt they or any other terrorist group for that matter can get worked up over other countries like that. Which is the point, for the US seems to be really good at ticking people off, at getting the most violent people to want to target us. Arguing that they hate freedom doesn't sound right for the majority of these people have been recruited and basically brainwashed to hate the Great Satan over whatever the issue is of the hour.

It is foreign policy that gives these radicals ammunition anyway, how would socialism matter?

Utracia

22-09-2005, 21:32

So what's your proposal, tuck your tail between your legs and start reading the Quran until your a good little Muslim like they want? Because that's working very well for the Shiites in Iraq.

If you want peace, prepare for war.

It seems your going to the extreme. Doing nothing will hardly solve anything but planning for war while doing nothing else will only cause a continuing battle that will be utimately self-defeating. Circle of violence and all that.

The Genius Masterminds

22-09-2005, 21:40

I find the war on terrorism an excuse for neo-imperialism done by America.

The Muslim nations should be left alone but aid to Israel nations shouldn't.

The Genius Masterminds

22-09-2005, 21:41

It seems your going to the extreme. Doing nothing will hardly solve anything but planning for war while doing nothing else will only cause a continuing battle that will be utimately self-defeating. Circle of violence and all that.

I agree. I know a few Muslims in Japan and they're not at all bad.

Frangland

22-09-2005, 21:49

Affect, perhaps.

hehe

my answer:

Terrorists would become emboldened and attack the US a great deal more frequently than they have in the past.

Fact is, even if we pulled out, they'd still be jealous of/hate our success, our way of life. That hatred would not go away... would not simply go POOF and vanish. What exacerbates it is that many arabs believe that muslims are the salt of the earth and that they should be the most successful people on earth. They see that they clearly are not (they're not stupid, per se), and they see that the US succeeds based on a cultural system that they despise (or that some of them despise).

Removing our troops would take the fight against terrorism from abroad and bring it to our doorstep. imo

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 22:43

So what? Just because he says something doesn't mean he can effect it. He's an extremist who started out with a small following.

The reason he's a force in the world today is precisely due to the actions you are advocating.

That organized an attack on the US that has only happened by GOVERNMENTS twice in our hisory and we have been at war ...HOW many times ???? That has to be one of the stupidest ..most ignorant ..moronic statements uttered in the history of internet forum use.

He's in the world because we have not killed him yet . He gave up his place on the planet when he declared war . Sooner or later him and his followers and supporters will be taken off the planet . Wake up .

Beer and Guns

22-09-2005, 22:52

hmm knowing that the Islamic facist want to kill and remove all the Isrealis from the planet . you would advocate that the country that helps them protect them , just walk away and let what will happen just happen .
Now knowing that the Israelis do not care to be killed and removed , every man women and child of them , from their country . And knowing that they will fight to the death any attempt to remove them . And knowing that that war as in the past will be a war of society against society . It will be a race and religion against a race and religion . It will be until ONE race is destroyed utterly . And knowing that this has been attempted and lessons supposedly learned . And knowing that the Israelis have nucular weapons and will blast the Middle East into a glass surface and millions will die in this war . some idiots will want to remove the ONE thing thats prevents either side from wiping the other off the face of the planet . And some idiots will suggest that this wont happen . And some idiots never fucking learn a thing .

Yep the US getting out of the Middle East and away from Israel and all the rest is a GOOD thing.

For Morons .

Detruss

22-09-2005, 22:55

It is foreign policy that gives these radicals ammunition anyway, how would socialism matter?

It's not really that... but in our socialism we threw religions of all kinds out of schools, politics,... we also don't have issues like god in the pledge of allegiance (because we have no such pledge, people know which nation they belong to without reciting some idiocy... and if they don't, they can always tick something else on the national consensus - 92% slovenian, some minorities and other)

Religious issues such as abortion have been resolved in the constitution itself (not that it really matters since while most people are against abortion... 90%+ of people believe in the right to have an abortion). "Marriage" and divorce must be handled by the state first, church later (if people want to).

Evolution is taught, other things, such as creationism-intelligent design are respected (though on the test you still have to know what evolution is... even if you think it's false, it can't be used as an excuse not to take the test )

Good economy - and good social security, low unemployment ratings, religious tolerance, low participation of religion in public, good handling of civil rights, recognition and respect of minorities (both national and religious - though county's laws rule supreme... religious laws must be agreed to - such as canonic law) give the people very little to complain about.

[sure... we have peacefull demonstrations - mostly student demonstrations against reducing the scale of student employment (working while studying - we have free education), war in iraq... but as I said... peacefull and well organised]

King Graham IV

22-09-2005, 22:58

Terrorists will just find another excuse to kill innocent people, thus nothing will change.

Graham Harvey

MoparRocks

23-09-2005, 03:11

I don't think anything would happen. They'd still go suicide bombing themselves in public places, only there'd be none of us to kill. Possibly a 10-15% chance that terrorism would go down, but probably a 5-10% increase would occur. They'd probably do another 9/11 thing, and we'd have to spend another half-billion dollars REdeploying into the Middle East.

Valosia

23-09-2005, 03:38

Then they'd start committing terrorism because infidels are on the same planet as them. It won't stop just because we leave.

Bjornoya

23-09-2005, 03:47

If it is true that religion is just a rational for people to act the way they do, then no, nothing would happen. These people are willing to kill, with or without some grandoise philosophy. They are murderers, but as a club.

Aggretia

23-09-2005, 04:10

Sure alot of muslims would like Islam to be the only religion in the world, but it doesn't mean that they're willing to leave their homes, risk their lives, and kill in order to bring it about. Some will always be willing, but they won't have the resources unless a certian group of infidels is pissing a large portion of the populace off. Switzerland is just as sinful and unbelieving as America is, but few in the middle east hate Switzerland, and none enough to kill the Swiss. It is only after a series of actions that common people feel to be unjust, wrong, and attrocious, like trying to dominate and controll Middle Eastern politics, even using troops to this end, and giving support to the nation in the area that they all loathe for reasons good and bad. It sure would piss me off if there were Chinese soldiers "keeping the peace" in America, even if there were real problems for them to solve. If I were in the right circumstances I might become a terrorist and go kill Chinamen. Right now, China may be communist(in some way or another), but I certainly don't care to kill them, and neither do poor Americans, even poor Christian Americans who hate Communism and some of the practices of the Chinese government don't become terrorists.

Sending troops to the Middle East was bad policy in the first place, mostly to protect U.S. oil interests and in some cases to fight communism, but never did it have the security of American people in mind. The establishment of Israel was an obviously injust and idiotic action, and supporting that state is also stupid policy. To advocate the continuation of bad policy because terrorists want us to discontinue it is stupid, especially when so much can be gained by ending bad policy.

People don't randomly become bloodthirsty murderers, if you fight the terrorists you will only win by completely destroying Islamic civilization, if you fight the causes of terrorism, you can win easily and save money and lives, if not face.

Disraeliland

23-09-2005, 05:25

All this twaddle about islam misses the obvious point.

As another poster said, "terrorism is a method". By doing what terrorists want, we are showing them that terrorism is successful, so they and others will use it more.

Examples, Palestinian terrorism against jewish civilians has been going on since the 1920's. It continues because the terror has bought them succes and legitimated their movements. Arafat addressed the UN, and was President KKKlintoon's most oft invited foreign guest.

Tibetans don't get to address the UN, and they aren't greeted with acclaim the world over, nor do they get open-invitations to The White House, although Tibetans don't slaughter Chinese school children en masse.

Beer and Guns

23-09-2005, 05:51

Utracia

23-09-2005, 06:00

Then they'd start committing terrorism because infidels are on the same planet as them. It won't stop just because we leave.

The terrorists main complaints seem to be our support of Isreal and trespassing on Islamic soil. If hypothetically we did remove our presence would they still have things to complain about? I really don't see them able to continue getting recruits if there isn't a constant American presence to anger radicals. I really don't buy the "they hate freedom" nonsense anyway.

CanuckHeaven

23-09-2005, 06:03

I think this is a great idea. :)

How about a 5 year trial period?

Disraeliland

23-09-2005, 06:06

BerkylvaniaYetAgain

23-09-2005, 06:06

Utracia

23-09-2005, 06:18

Utracia, you seem to accept, without the slightest shred of evidence that the terrorists have a legitimate grievance that has gone unheard.

Of course terrorists will get recruits, controlling the schools and media is damned helpful.

You ought to read bin Liner's own words, rather than making shite up.

I am simply echoing their words. I frankly think it's all bullshit, they are simply a bunch of psychopaths who like blowing things up and killing people. I would like to think that it takes a certain person who would be willing to do their actions anyway. I do think that the Arab world has legitamate greivances against America for its actions in the past years. Terrorists however always twist everything and take things to a violent extreme.

Chellis

23-09-2005, 07:34

Will this make them(Islamic terrorists, Al-queda, etc) hate us less? No.

Will it make attacks slow down greatly, if not virtually stop? Yes.

Quite simply, they won't have the power to commit terrorism on us anymore, if we are out of the region.

Even if we keep giving support to israel, which is probably the one thing that isn't plausible to stop in this scenario, the attacks would greatly slow. How many syrians, or saudi's, will become pilots in the US, spending years training, to hijack airplanes, because america isnt a muslim country?

A great deal less than ones who would because america commonly stations troops in the holy land, bombs muslim nations, etc etc.

Ideologically, it might be a minor victory for terrorists. Logistically, practically, it would be devastating to them. Less people would die this way, especially if the 200 billion dollars we spent on Iraq alone, went into a national air defense system, or something similar.

Two last things:

1. Beer and guts, I believe, is spamming, by posting that long ass text three times on this thread alone.

2. While Osama calls for many things in the text, look at the only three places where he threatens violent consequences:

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire
for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries.
Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits,
rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of
supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

These three all relate to the original point of the thread. And simply, they are given threats because they are the main goals, the goals they realize are practical. They want their ideological victory? Let them have it. I prefer living americans over dead americans and muslims.

Disraeliland

23-09-2005, 07:47

"I am simply echoing their words."

bin Liner spends quite a lot of time prattling on about the Western lifestyle.

"Quite simply, they won't have the power to commit terrorism on us anymore, if we are out of the region."

You must be using a different atlas to mine. Mine does not put New York, London, and Madrid in the Middle East.

Centuries ago, great oceans provided some defence against invasion. Today, it is simply not the case, as every Islamic terrorist attack in the West shows.

"These three all relate to the original point of the thread. And simply, they are given threats because they are the main goals, the goals they realize are practical. They want their ideological victory? Let them have it. I prefer living americans over dead americans and muslims."

And they will promptly say to themselves "killing Americans, and other Westerners will get us what we want, what shall we ask for next"

Hitler said he'd limit himself to pre-war Germany, and then the Sudetenland, then Czechoslovakia.

Stalin publically disbanded the COMINTERN, and waffled about socialism in one country. Apparantly "one country" meant nine countries.

You might be able to delude yourself into thinking that what you quoted represents all he wants, or at least enough to mollify him, but no one with responsibility for the protection of real people can afford to.

al Qaeda want nothing less than world domination under a new caliphate.

Leonstein

23-09-2005, 07:52

You might be able to delude yourself into thinking that what you quoted represents all he wants, or at least enough to mollify him, but no one with responsibility for the protection of real people can afford to.

al Qaeda want nothing less than world domination under a new caliphate.
The rest of your post is fair enough IMHO, but here you need to clarify and justify what you're saying.

Chellis

23-09-2005, 07:55

Undelia

23-09-2005, 07:59

"Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation - the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can almost be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains, which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose them? " ~March 23, 1775, Patrick Henry.

Just think about it.

Disraeliland

23-09-2005, 11:34

I find all these allusions to hitler funny. When Osama bin laden creates a navy capable of defeating the US navy, and has enough troops to take out what is probably the most heavily armed, heavily trained(civilian wise, except maybe israel per capita) nation in the world, then I will concede that the references to nazi germany are ok.

Nazi germany had the power to back up its rhetoric.

Wow, he can put up a straw man and knock him down.

Golf clap.

If you had justified your view that bin Liner has limited aims, which the West can satisfy at little cost, and that such an action would stop, or at least greatly reduce, Islamic terrorism, then I might be impressed.

Only the most superficial reading of a history of National Socialism could've reached the conclusion that Hitler was moving from a position of strength.

His disarmament programs had hardly begun (and the Kriegsmarine never had the strength to engage in a stand-up fight, let alone send the USN to the bottom). Germany's economy was inflated to the point where the choice was either collapse, or war.

would even decrease with the proposed pull-out

What? You're saying that demonstrating that a method can be successful will reduce the use of that method? You're going to have to fully explain that, because it is a truism that success breeds imitation.

Successful terrorism leads to more terrorism. Giving bin Liner what he wants, even acknowlegding that he and his insane followers have a grievance (legitimate or otherwise), will lead to more terrorism.

Swimmingpool

23-09-2005, 11:47

If these things happened, terrorism would increase. It would mostly be in the form of Islamists attacking the people and governments of nations in the Middle East until they succumb to theocratic revolution. There would be an unbelievable increase in terrorism against Israel, until that country is utterly destroyed.

Once the caliphate spreads out over the Middle East they won't stop there. They will try to reclaim Moorish Spain that they held in the Middle Ages. With a foothold in the West, they will see the perversion that is European freedom, and they would try their best to take us as well.

Hinterlutschistan

23-09-2005, 12:11

Look into your history books. After all, it's not like it hasn't been done before.

In short: It will probably end in a stable government, but no shorter than 50 to 100 years in the future.

When you remove troops and a sorta-kinda government, the result is a struggle for power by the local rulers. This would have a serious effect on the oil price, since oil isn't something you just take and then carry with donkeys down the path, oil needs rather fragile (talk about explosive...) logistics and equipment. The immedeate result of taking off would be an oilprice that skyrockets without a limit.

There will be war. And of course we'll make some bucks by selling them guns and whatnot, but generally it will become quite expensive for us to live, simply 'cause gas prices will about triple.

Terrorism will maybe decline in the western world, but Israel will be facing the worst pressure from its arab neighbors ever. And without support from the US it could be a rather tough time, maybe up to the point that they can't hold their ground anymore and it leads to a new diaspora.

That alone is reason enough to keep up the fight.

It was wrong to start the war. But it would be equally wrong to end it now.

Beer and Guns

23-09-2005, 13:58

The words of Osama Bin Laden that I" keep " posting..that LONG bunch of words that you alude to. The three DIFFERENT fatwas or proclamations , 1996 , 1998 , 2004. The long ass txt that tells you what needs to be done to satisfy this particular group of loons .
The documents that say IN OSAMAS words not yours what he expects from us.
The documents you do not read . The documents that if you did read you would know that just getting out of the Middle East wont work . Is that what you are reffering to ? This is spam :rolleyes: . This is spam because YOU REFUSE TO EVEN LOOK at reality ?
Fools wake up .

I see no one has the courage to respond to why they want all the Israelis killed along with millions of Arabs . I guess that is something else that you refuse to see.
1. Beer and guts, I believe, is spamming, by posting that long ass text three times on this thread alone.

These words proclaim your ignorance loud and clear.

Leonstein

24-09-2005, 02:06

Germany's economy was inflated to the point where the choice was either collapse, or war.
I agree with that Germany was not at full strength (the plans were for 1942), but what do you mean with "inflated"?

The Eagle of Darkness

24-09-2005, 02:54

The documents you do not read . The documents that if you did read you would know that just getting out of the Middle East wont work . Is that what you are reffering to ? This is spam :rolleyes: . This is spam because YOU REFUSE TO EVEN LOOK at reality ?
Fools wake up .

Well, when it contains things like this...

Notice - Copyright

The above is copyright 2001 and 2004 by MidEastWeb. Please tell people about these web pages, link to them, and send links to others, but please do not copy the materials on this page or reproduce them in any form without written permission. Mid-East Web materials are copyright by MidEast Web and by their original authors. They are placed on the Web to help people interested in MidEast peace and as inspirations to dialog. They are accessible to all from this Web site, where they can be viewed in the context of other materials offered by MidEast Web as well.

... I do start to wonder.

Now, on-topic, I have actually read about two-thirds of the long things you copy/pasted, and one thing struck me immediately. You ready for this?

Most of the demands made can be summarised 'Get out of our homelands and stop killing us'.

Now, I'm not saying that the US could pull all troops out and all terrorism by Islamic extremists would instantly stop. However, one thing you have to bear in mind is that terrorists are not bred in some special institution, they're not built by mad scientists... they're actually ordinary people.

Yeah. Ordinary people. Just like you and me.

Then something happens - possibly their house gets blown up by US forces hunting terrorists, possibly their brother is arrested for something he didn't do, possibly they get converted by a very charismatic leader, I guess it's even possible some of them discover an appetite for pure evil and an intense hatred of 'Mericans - and they turn, in the eyes of the West, into evil sadistic monsters out to hurt everyone they can. And then they start blowing things up.

The point is, an awful lot of them have genuine grievances, and are actually justified in wanting to take it out on the US. Note that I'm not saying they're justified in /doing/ it, nor that every single terrorist is just misunderstood. No doubt most of the leadership aren't like this, I'm talking about the cannon fodder.

In conclusion, something to think about. These terrorists attacked and destroyed a pair of buildings in New York City, and tried to attack another in Washington DC. Since then, there have been an awful lot of Americans declaring that they should all be killed. If they now invaded your country, and you saw an opportunity to blow up one of their military camps, would you take it? And if so, what would that make you? The difference between 'freedom fighter' and 'terrorist' isn't always as big as you think.

PS: I know it'll be said, so I'll try to pre-empt it. No, this does not apply to all terrorists. Some of them are just plain nasty. No, acceeding to all the demands of the loony ones is not a good idea. Ta-ta.

Lotus Puppy

24-09-2005, 03:06

Would it stop? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure if they are angry that the US plays a global role, or that the US exists (though I bet the latter). However, imagine what would happen. The terrorists, no longer having to worry about US retaliation, would do terrible things. They may give the Russian government a bigger excuse to became autocratic, and many other nations would have to out of fear. And if the US pulls out, Europe would have the most to loose. Terrorist attacks would be more prevelant, and their societies would close to the outside world in fear. It'd definatly affect the US no matter what happens.

Beer and Guns

24-09-2005, 03:37

Well, when it contains things like this...

... I do start to wonder.

Now, on-topic, I have actually read about two-thirds of the long things you copy/pasted, and one thing struck me immediately. You ready for this?

Most of the demands made can be summarised 'Get out of our homelands and stop killing us'.

Now, I'm not saying that the US could pull all troops out and all terrorism by Islamic extremists would instantly stop. However, one thing you have to bear in mind is that terrorists are not bred in some special institution, they're not built by mad scientists... they're actually ordinary people.

Yeah. Ordinary people. Just like you and me.

Then something happens - possibly their house gets blown up by US forces hunting terrorists, possibly their brother is arrested for something he didn't do, possibly they get converted by a very charismatic leader, I guess it's even possible some of them discover an appetite for pure evil and an intense hatred of 'Mericans - and they turn, in the eyes of the West, into evil sadistic monsters out to hurt everyone they can. And then they start blowing things up.

The point is, an awful lot of them have genuine grievances, and are actually justified in wanting to take it out on the US. Note that I'm not saying they're justified in /doing/ it, nor that every single terrorist is just misunderstood. No doubt most of the leadership aren't like this, I'm talking about the cannon fodder.

In conclusion, something to think about. These terrorists attacked and destroyed a pair of buildings in New York City, and tried to attack another in Washington DC. Since then, there have been an awful lot of Americans declaring that they should all be killed. If they now invaded your country, and you saw an opportunity to blow up one of their military camps, would you take it? And if so, what would that make you? The difference between 'freedom fighter' and 'terrorist' isn't always as big as you think.

PS: I know it'll be said, so I'll try to pre-empt it. No, this does not apply to all terrorists. Some of them are just plain nasty. No, acceeding to all the demands of the loony ones is not a good idea. Ta-ta.

Yeah. Ordinary people. Just like you and me.

I ordinarily dont pull people out of cars and dismember them then hang them off a bridge . I do not " ordinarily " kidnap anyone no matter how vile I think his politics and put him in a room and saw off his head while he is alive and then post my " movie " on the internet . I do not no matter how bad a day I have had get on an airliner full of people and take it over so that I can deliberately crash it into a building ..even if the building is really ugly and its in the US and I do not like them . I just do not do it for any reason...Call me strange . Hmmm lets see strapping a bomb aroun d my waiste and getting on a bus ? Ummm no ...not my style ...Ummm lets see .....wow all the shit they do ...ummm the ORDINARY fuckers you claim that they are...what they do...its not on my list...

Yeah. Ordinary people. Just like you and me.

Taliban are you ? What the fuck are you that this behavior is ordinary ?
I dont want to say you are just a misguided idiot with a moronic and simpleminded view of reality . Anyone who thinks....... Yeah. Ordinary people. Just like you and me. Well lets just say that your words do you justice .
Most of the demands made can be summarised 'Get out of our homelands and stop killing us'.

except for the other fourty percent or more and the ones they seem to think are just as important. And are NOT justified to make anyway ..all 100 % ! what homelands ? The ones the recognised governments invited us into ?

Or the ones we are at war with and the governments need us to stay because they want to still BE the government when we leave ? WTF ? They have no legitimate government or we would have already have destroyed it after 9- 11 ...umm maybe thats why they are terrorist ?
lets see ...hmmm they want us to stop supporting Israel so that they can kill all the Israelis or just kill a bunch and get the rest to commit suicide ...or just go somplace else ...ummm OK ..reasonable demand....we seem to be in the way of them commting genocide ...bad United States...you should be ashamed !!! :rolleyes:

But hey why listen to what THEY want.....you know what they want better than what they do right ?

Then something happens - possibly their house gets blown up by US forces hunting terrorists, possibly their brother is arrested for something he didn't do, possibly they get converted by a very charismatic leader, I guess it's even possible some of them discover an appetite for pure evil and an intense hatred of 'Mericans - and they turn, in the eyes of the West, into evil sadistic monsters out to hurt everyone they can. And then they start blowing things up.

Here we have Mr. Islamic study group himself telling us what motivates a terrorist ! Now the schools that teach jihad on the western governments because they ...get this ...are not muslim ( !) .... and corrupt gods people ...the devil... brittany spears....etc. etc. like the fellas we have a life history on like the guys from England..you know the one s who blew up the trains and shit...the middle class " normal " or ummm " ordinary " fuckers who were deemed by peers to be " ok " until they went to school in Pakistan...umm they dont count ?

And all the 9 -11 fuckers who we know about and have history on ...umm they dont fit your mold ...or the shoe bomber...the American taliban etc..

wow suprise.... suprise... you seem to be a bit delusional ....what world do you live in ?

I feel safe to say you are wrong ..

As long as people are in the world who think as you do the terrorist have absolutely nothing to worry about . Half their job is already done .

Who needs Isrealis anyway . They dont blow up our buildings or our people they dont hijack our airliners . the Israelis do not have a powerfull lobby like the idiots who just want to kill us all or convert us to an Islamic state and take over our government . we only listen to the people who terrorise us . They are the best influence on our national policy .
So the lesson here is when you threaten us and attack our country we will do what you say ..so line up people we have plenty of citys to bomb ...think of all the virgins you will be getting. Fuck our allies they just support us or act like friends ..or they are French . if you really want us to do what you want JUST fuckin kill some civilians the more the better . come one come all the land of the free and home of the fuckin idiots beckons you ....

yep I am sorry I never thought of having you elected . Our trouble would soon be over .

Disraeliland

24-09-2005, 07:46

I agree with that Germany was not at full strength (the plans were for 1942), but what do you mean with "inflated"?

1944 for the Navy.

Hitler financed the German economy with inflation. They issued "Mefo bills" to pay for arms.

Leonstein

24-09-2005, 08:08

Hitler financed the German economy with inflation. They issued "Mefo bills" to pay for arms.
Monetising Budget Deficits does not automatically cause inflation. In fact, in some situations it is far superior to issuing bonds.

Now, hyper-inflation was perfectly possible if this had been done on its own. But it wasn't - price controls were imposed, and so inflation couldn't get out of hand. It had worked for some years, and I don't see why they couldn't have continued the same way. They just couldn't lift the controls, cuz that would've led to collapse.

Chellis

24-09-2005, 08:24

As long as people are in the world who think as you do the terrorist have absolutely nothing to worry about . Half their job is already done .

Who needs Isrealis anyway . They dont blow up our buildings or our people they dont hijack our airliners . the Israelis do not have a powerfull lobby like the idiots who just want to kill us all or convert us to an Islamic state and take over our government . we only listen to the people who terrorise us . They are the best influence on our national policy .
So the lesson here is when you threaten us and attack our country we will do what you say ..so line up people we have plenty of citys to bomb ...think of all the virgins you will be getting. Fuck our allies they just support us or act like friends ..or they are French . if you really want us to do what you want JUST fuckin kill some civilians the more the better . come one come all the land of the free and home of the fuckin idiots beckons you ....

yep I am sorry I never thought of having you elected . Our trouble would soon be over .

This is a huge slippery slope, and one that does not hold up at all.

Nobody is proposing to cave in to terrorist demands. Its not about appeasing them.

In warfare, you dont go for all or nothing, unless you have the ability to fully pull it off. Much more often, you give the enemy a little of what he wants, to the point that you can handle it, as long as it benefits you.

This is such a case. Pulling out of the Middle East would not make us lose anything, except some people(mostly israeli's) would get pissed at us. We would, however, be gaining money, lives, etc by doing this, in the long run.

Moreover, the risk of terrorism would plummet. Yes, osama bin laden would still preach hellfire on america. It wouldn't matter. He wouldn't have the capacity to pull off his attacks. His recruitment pool would flounder, because a great deal fewer people would attack america for not being muslim, than for being on holy sites, etc.

Case in point: If terrorists had killed three thousand people in Nigeria, a few people would be calling for stricter policies against terrorists, and nobody would be joining up for the US military to fight against those terrorists.

But when 3000 die in america, suddenly the full weight of our nation gets thrown at terrorism.

There is rhetoric, and there is reality. Just because the attacks didn't happen in america, does that make the terrorists any better in our view? Of course not, theoretically. We still abhor them for what they do. Yet, in reality, if its not happening to us, we don't care nearly as much.

Rhetorically, the islamic terrorists won't stop until they turn america into a muslim theocracy. In reality, they don't have the manpower to do this, and the best they can hope to do is to force us to fight on their home turf, where they have the traditional advantage.

Rhetorically, we are going to hunt down and kill the terrorists. In reality, we are going to avoid them as much as possible, fight them when its opertune, and try to minimize our losses.

You put so much on words, especially the words of Osama bin laden. Do you look up to him or something? Think that everything he says is true? I should hope not. He is a figurehead, and using big rhetoric is his tool. And it works for him, because people who don't understand the concept, like many muslim terrorists, and you, listen to him and just assume he means all of it.

Osama bin laden is a smart man. Say what you want about his beliefs, he is intelligence nonetheless. He couldn't have orchastrated 9/11, and constantly evaded the US otherwise(unless you want to say something about america, but lets not go there). He couldn't be fanatical enough to believe he is going to accomplish everything he says. I don't even believe bush believes everything he says. Leaders say what sounds good, what gets them the most support, with the least backlash.

My point is, if we pulled out of the middle east, terrorism on america would decrease, because there simply wouldn't be as big of a recruiting pool to get terrorists from, plus what could be invested in homeland security. Simply because osama bin laden says he will keep fighting on, hardly means he will.

Disraeliland

24-09-2005, 08:41

The mefo bills were simply paper money. The reason they didn't increase the supply of Reichmarks was that mefo bills didn't have to appear in the government budget, or the bank's statements.

The mefo bills were issued to German firms,and the Reich guaranteed repayment in Marks after 5 years.

The first mefo bills were due for repayment in Spring 1939. By the time the National Socialists stopped using mefo bills, they had issued over 12 billion reickmark's worth. The Government had done nothing towards paying the bills back, and had stopped the Reichbank from doing anything.

Disraeliland

24-09-2005, 08:45

"My point is, if we pulled out of the middle east, terrorism on america would decrease, because there simply wouldn't be as big of a recruiting pool to get terrorists from, plus what could be invested in homeland security. Simply because osama bin laden says he will keep fighting on, hardly means he will."

A 'point' you refuse to back with evidence. It is for you to prove that bin Liner only has a few limited aims, which could be satisfied by the West at little or no cost.

Most of the world's experience with predators like bin Liner doesn't justify what you're saying.

You've also refused to acknowledge my point, that success breeds imitation. If you show that terrorism is successful, you can only get more terrorism because people will see the success, and know that terrorism is the way to get what you want. That's why Israeli concessions to the Arabs have only led to more terrorism.

Bertram Stantrous

24-09-2005, 09:36

Come on, the guy's name is "Beer and guns!" You really expect him to come up with a valid, intelligent response? Every time someone responds to him, he pulls out his giant Osama list that he found on the internet (and apparently didn't read all the way through) and says "You are stupid this says he wants to eat your kids all terrorists should be shot" or some such bullshit.
If some jackasses invaded and occupied the US, bombed your house and killed your family because "terrorists were nearby," something tells me you wouldn't just be sitting back saying "oh well, I'd better not fight back, because that would be wrong." If the situation arose, you would be just as nasty, disgusting and bloodthirsty as some of the folks in the Middle East. You would fight and kill and slice throats and bomb buildings indefinitely because that's the way it goes.
And what do you think they would do in response to this? What do you think they would say if someone suggested they give you mercy? Probably something like this:

"I like tracking down and killing each and every one of them better ."

Disraeliland

24-09-2005, 09:38

Ad hominem rubbish.

Laerod

24-09-2005, 09:41

Come on, the guy's name is "Beer and guns!" You really expect him to come up with a valid, intelligent response?Not really, but I my expectations were wrong. He's one of the more reasonable debaters on a lot of topics, even if I totally disagree with him on most of them.

Leonstein

24-09-2005, 10:44

The first mefo bills were due for repayment in Spring 1939.
How much of them?

By the time the National Socialists stopped using mefo bills, they had issued over 12 billion reickmark's worth. The Government had done nothing towards paying the bills back, and had stopped the Reichbank from doing anything.
And when did they stop using them? As far as I know, they also had huge amounts of gold taken from Jews etc on standby in Switzerland.
And finally, during the last years of the war there hardly was such a thing as a "private company" anymore. I sincerely doubt that the Government would've had to pay back the money if they didn't want to. It may be in breach of contract, but I don't think it would've forced them to do anything they didn't want to.

Disraeliland

24-09-2005, 11:07

http://www.gmhistorian.btinternet.co.uk/US-Germaneconomicpolicies.htm

Go down to Chapter 11 in the link.

I sincerely doubt that the Government would've had to pay back the money if they didn't want to. It may be in breach of contract, but I don't think it would've forced them to do anything they didn't want to.

You've made my point for me. With a war, they could forget their financial obligations, and/or pay them off with war booty, and articles seized from Jews.

Omega the Black

24-09-2005, 11:59

Maybe it would have made him enjoy his women and his money, rather than make him think there was some sort of higher calling?
He started down the path as a form of rebelion against his family, so Our involvement has made no difference!

Omega the Black

24-09-2005, 12:03

Let's see... we don't have any terrorist attacks in Slovenia; noone is scared that anything will happen. Let's analyze this situation further... we have majority of catholics (70%), we have some muslims, some jewish people, atheists,... and some religions I've never even heard of. But we have no religious extremism! Simply because all religions and beliefs are discriminated in the same way :p , no one religion can claim that another has had prefferential treatment :D
Seriously; in 50 years of socialism we beat the church out of the affairs of the state (as far as it is possible without infringing on people's rights)... and in the last couple hundred years we didn't bug anyone all that much (a.k.a. staying out of other people's business).

Sounds like a pefect recipe for a country without terrorism :cool:
Or could it be that Slovenia is so very unimportant that NOONE cares about it at all?
I agree. I know a few Muslims in Japan and they're not at all bad.
Muslims are not bad at all! I in fact am in favour of Islam, despite being a Christian, and believe that it is one of the most accepting of all the religions of the world. What is being taught to the terrorists nowadays is not true Islam but a perverse mutation of it! The Muslim community here in Canada has openly spoken out against the terrorism that has been taking over the Islamic communities the world over. They have even helped point out religious leaders here in Canada and ones they were aware of in Britain that have been teaching the perversion of Islam.

Omega the Black

24-09-2005, 13:07

The terrorists main complaints seem to be our support of Isreal and trespassing on Islamic soil. If hypothetically we did remove our presence would they still have things to complain about? I really don't see them able to continue getting recruits if there isn't a constant American presence to anger radicals. I really don't buy the "they hate freedom" nonsense anyway.
"Islamic" soil is an oxymoron. The Arabs claiming to be Islamic now have never actually lived on these Isreali lands. They are nomads and only became other to try to legitimize their claim that the lands belonged to them as a reason to wipe out the Isrealites on lands that have belonged to the Isrealites for millenia. The original agreement that was hammered out between the Isrealites and British was that ALL the land from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, the Med thru the Tigris & Euphatese valley would be given to the nation of Isreal. They were robbed of over 2/3rds of their agreement and accepted it only wanting their ancestral homelands. But they were robbed again losing the west bank, the Golan heights and the Gaza strip leaving them vulnerable. (God has repaid Britain for this betrayal in their diminished capabilities & importance as per His agreement with Isreal -- I will curse those who curse you and bless those who bless you) It was almost as if Britain wanted Isreal attacked and destroyed?!?! By all rights those that claim to be refugees from Isreal are not, the majority of them weren't even born in Isreal and have NEVER lives there. Those that left Isreal 60 years ago did so at the urging of the surrounding countries (the same ones that would not let them become part of their societies after the war was lost) and have been used as a political tool to "prove" the unfairness of Isreal, the country that asked them to stay and work with their Jewish neighbors to build a more successful nation together. They chose to leave and were then rejected by their "brothers" and instead of trying to do something about it, like becoming a citizen if one if the Arabic countries or returning to Isreal and making their peace with their Jewish neighbors, they chose instead to rob their children of their childhood and turn them to Hate. This has spread out from there and has gotten more perverted with every retelling of it!

Smecks

24-09-2005, 13:15

I say that it might

Ariddia

24-09-2005, 15:04

Kll each and every one of them . Track them down and exterminate them and whomever would give them support .

My god, you are ignorant and simple-minded, aren't you... Amazing.

Armorvia

24-09-2005, 16:48

Personally, I believe we should pull out of every country we have a base in, all of them. Europe would obviously be a better place without our ignorant, ugly American faces and money. We will save TONS of money, and be able to emplace enough forces to complete the missions we have. That will reduce terrorism against Americans, by removing more targets overseas, and employing greater force concentrations where needed, like along the US/Mexico border.

The 666th realm

24-09-2005, 17:00

TERRORISM IS A METHOD! NOT AN IDEOLOGY! NOT SOMETHING THAT GOES HAND AND HAND WITH ISLAM!

When will you all stop drinking in the spin and come back to reality. Terrorism is a method, a means to an end. There have been communist terrorists, facsist terrorists, capitalist terrorists (esp.terrorists for hire, a la Carlos the Jackle), eco-terrorists, religious terrorists (of all makes and models) nationalistic terrorists (more often call restistance/freedom/ fighters or patriots), hell, there are tons of American terrorists (militia, Unabomber, KKK, Weather Underground, etc. etc.). Terrorism is simply a method used by small groups without much military support to violently influence political outcomes. It is neither better nor worse than war and can be adopted by anyone.

Therefore, changes in support for Israel and/or troop pullouts in the Middle East might make differences in terms of Islamic Terrorism, however it will do nothing to discredit terrorism as a method, nor reduce the incedents of non-Islamic terrorism.

he didnt say it would eliminate all terrorism. noone did. I personally think it will reduce it: if you take all the terrorists in the world, then exclude a lot of the islamic ones (not ALL, a lot) you'd end up with less terrorists then you started with ;)

Beer and Guns

24-09-2005, 17:01

This is a huge slippery slope, and one that does not hold up at all.

Nobody is proposing to cave in to terrorist demands. Its not about appeasing them.

In warfare, you dont go for all or nothing, unless you have the ability to fully pull it off. Much more often, you give the enemy a little of what he wants, to the point that you can handle it, as long as it benefits you.

This is such a case. Pulling out of the Middle East would not make us lose anything, except some people(mostly israeli's) would get pissed at us. We would, however, be gaining money, lives, etc by doing this, in the long run.

Moreover, the risk of terrorism would plummet. Yes, osama bin laden would still preach hellfire on america. It wouldn't matter. He wouldn't have the capacity to pull off his attacks. His recruitment pool would flounder, because a great deal fewer people would attack america for not being muslim, than for being on holy sites, etc.

Case in point: If terrorists had killed three thousand people in Nigeria, a few people would be calling for stricter policies against terrorists, and nobody would be joining up for the US military to fight against those terrorists.

But when 3000 die in america, suddenly the full weight of our nation gets thrown at terrorism.

There is rhetoric, and there is reality. Just because the attacks didn't happen in america, does that make the terrorists any better in our view? Of course not, theoretically. We still abhor them for what they do. Yet, in reality, if its not happening to us, we don't care nearly as much.

Rhetorically, the islamic terrorists won't stop until they turn america into a muslim theocracy. In reality, they don't have the manpower to do this, and the best they can hope to do is to force us to fight on their home turf, where they have the traditional advantage.

Rhetorically, we are going to hunt down and kill the terrorists. In reality, we are going to avoid them as much as possible, fight them when its opertune, and try to minimize our losses.

You put so much on words, especially the words of Osama bin laden. Do you look up to him or something? Think that everything he says is true? I should hope not. He is a figurehead, and using big rhetoric is his tool. And it works for him, because people who don't understand the concept, like many muslim terrorists, and you, listen to him and just assume he means all of it.

Osama bin laden is a smart man. Say what you want about his beliefs, he is intelligence nonetheless. He couldn't have orchastrated 9/11, and constantly evaded the US otherwise(unless you want to say something about america, but lets not go there). He couldn't be fanatical enough to believe he is going to accomplish everything he says. I don't even believe bush believes everything he says. Leaders say what sounds good, what gets them the most support, with the least backlash.

My point is, if we pulled out of the middle east, terrorism on america would decrease, because there simply wouldn't be as big of a recruiting pool to get terrorists from, plus what could be invested in homeland security. Simply because osama bin laden says he will keep fighting on, hardly means he will.

Ok lets be reasonable .

Nobody is proposing to cave in to terrorist demands. Its not about appeasing them.

I wont post all of the responses saying the United States should remove all its troops from the Middle East and that the US should not support Israel .
I wont post all of the responses in this very same thread that claim that all the terrorist want is for us to leave the middle east specificaly there holy lands etc. and stop supporting Israel .
I wont just copy and paste the title of this thread or the poll its questions or its results . I wont even post the definition of appeasement .
No it wouldnt be reasonable and I doubt there is the bandwidth .

But I will say you are clearly wrong because when you say that the US should remove its troops you are ..." drum roll please " ....saying ....I give UP I will do as you demand ! Sorry for not breaking out my long ass list that I found on the internet ...Osama Bin- Ladens demands...I found them on the internet so they must be fake... :rolleyes: They cant be true... :p

In warfare, you dont go for all or nothing, unless you have the ability to fully pull it off. Much more often, you give the enemy a little of what he wants, to the point that you can handle it, as long as it benefits you

The United States could pull it off but it will take a while . If the enemy's demands were reasonable and if giving in to the enemy would not cost you more than having him stay your enemy . Please explain how giving in to a terrorist organisation ..at this point..could possibly benifit. And since we are dealing with more than one group how do we close this pandoras box of caving in to terrorist demands that you yourself just advocated ; you give the enemy a little of what he wants, to the point that you can handle it, as long as it benefits you " Please if I am wrong correct me .

This is such a case. Pulling out of the Middle East would not make us lose anything, except some people(mostly israeli's) would get pissed at us. We would, however, be gaining money, lives, etc by doing this, in the long run.

Again I see no one wants to actually think about ...never mind answer this one . But lets reason this out shall we.
The United States the only super power in the world with a global military presence . recognises and accepts terrorist demands despite its treaty aggreements and its support for Israel and other moderate Arab countrys in the region . The world press trumpets the defeat by terrorist of this once great nation while its friends wonder what will happen now with the terrorist suddenly becomming a legitimate threat and with the prestige given by the defeat of the US a force gathering momentum and political strenghth along with hundreds of thousands of supporters emboldened by the victory . Islamic movements in former friends of the US have sprung up and demanded that the governments step down . Al- queda claims that its goal of a global Islamic state is at hand . Syria -Iran -Libia - form an alliance to protect each other from Israel and announce a joint nucular armament project . Iran offers to sell its technology to all enemys of the Israeli interlopers . Iraqi shiites although in the middle of a civil war with the Kurds in the North and the remenants of the Sunnis that have survived the Iraqi genocide , with the support of Iran have aggreedcto form a closer alliance with Iran . They will soon join the group arrayed Israel . The King of Jordan facing the threat of outside Islamist terrorist and internal islamist revolt has abdicated . Jordon is in chaos and attacks by Islamic terrorist on Israels borders increase . The United Nations pulls its collective dick while pacing the halls wondering what to do ...seems the United States cant honor its commitments and the aggreements with the terrorist..and whats the diffence ..who can trust them anyway ? Israel launches an attack on Irans nucular program fearing for its very existence . Iran - Syria - the Islamic republic of Iraq -libia declare war on Israel . After two days of heavy fighting the arab countrys armys are ahnililated by the Isrealis. Missles conatianing poison gas are fired into Israli cities ...Israel responds by firing Nucular missles into Tehran - Bahgdad- Damascus - Tripoli . The Arab leaders all declar Jihad on Isarel . The lament over the non- involvement of the United States in controlling its former ally is beginning to swell . World opinion blames the United States for not responding to the crisis. Its estimated the casualties in the latest Arab Israeli war to be clost to 2.7 million with almost 2 million being civilians . Israel vows to protect its territory and says it will never again leave the occupied lands it has aquired through this latest war . Parts of Syria - Jordon- Lebenon and the Siani will always be Israeli territory . The Arab world vows to remove the Israeli from the Earth. And the wars go on for years- decades.
No oil is being pupmped for years . Economys around the world are devestated . The Islamic states controll what little oil can be pumped from the damaged or destroyed fields .
Global terrorist emboldend by the success of the Al- Queda federation have increased the frequency and the effect of their attacks .

You come up with your own scenario. The funny ones will be the ones that claim the terrorist after forcing the US to leave all went home happy and the world was at peace .

Moreover, the risk of terrorism would plummet. Yes, osama bin laden would still preach hellfire on america. It wouldn't matter. He wouldn't have the capacity to pull off his attacks. His recruitment pool would flounder, because a great deal fewer people would attack america for not being muslim, than for being on holy sites, etc

:D Can you say wishfull thinking ? so after the greatest defeat in terrorist history..at this point EVEN if the US says they left because they wanted to...what muslim or Arab or ..guess what YOU tell me who would believe that the US did not cave into terrorist demmands ! :rolleyes: His recruitment pool would flounder ? :D Human nature- history and reality are not your strong points are they ? Did you stop to think what the next target would be ? What the next demmand would be ?
Remember the long ass list that I just happened to find on the internet that detail the Al Queda demmands ? Maybe you really should read the thing .
A reasonable person would . And a reasonable person would accept that a group capable of all that Al _ queda has accomplished over the years even while hiding in caves ! Should not be taken so lightly ! :rolleyes:
really what do you base your fantasy on ?

Case in point: If terrorists had killed three thousand people in Nigeria, a few people would be calling for stricter policies against terrorists, and nobody would be joining up for the US military to fight against those terrorists.

But when 3000 die in america, suddenly the full weight of our nation gets thrown at terrorism.

:eek: Well DUH...lets be reasonable here..ITS FUCKING REALLITY ! Thats what happened so that what you have to deal with !!!! ITS the threat that Actually exist ! Not to mention the Cole the embassys etc. etc. Attacks all over the worlsd ...London - Spain ..wtf are you in a coma ???
Sorry for my little episode there but ...not for nothing..think for a few seconds about that crap you posted . Be reasonable about it .

Osama bin laden is a smart man. Say what you want about his beliefs, he is intelligence nonetheless. He couldn't have orchastrated 9/11, and constantly evaded the US otherwise(unless you want to say something about america, but lets not go there). He couldn't be fanatical enough to believe he is going to accomplish everything he says. I don't even believe bush believes everything he says. Leaders say what sounds good, what gets them the most support, with the least backlash

Yep lets be reasonable about it. You are refusing to accept the mans own words and actions . But thats reasonable . He couldnt be fanatical enough...HOW FUCKING FANATICAL DO YOU HAVE TO BE ????? THEY FLEW FUCKING AIRPLANES FULL OF PEOPLE INTO BUILDINGS FULL OF PEOPLE !!!
WTF ??????????? Think about that statement " He couldn't be fanatical enough to believe he is going to accomplish everything he says"
This is being said about a man who attacked the most powerfull nation on earth by convincing people to kill themselves by Hijacking airliners full of people and flying them into the world trade center in New York AND the fucking PENTAGON in D.C. and who know where the other was headed the White House ? Just how fanatical can he be ??? :D

Ok lets be reasonable this statement of yours My point is, if we pulled out of the middle east, terrorism on america would decrease, because there simply wouldn't be as big of a recruiting pool to get terrorists from, plus what could be invested in homeland security. Simply because osama bin laden says he will keep fighting on, hardly means he will.
in the very same post as this...Nobody is proposing to cave in to terrorist demands. Its not about appeasing them ?? Well can you explain that ??

:D

Track them down and kill each and every on of them and their supporters.

Now lets be reasonable. They are terrorist they have declared war on this country and its civilians they make no disiction for race sex age ...or whatever. By tracking them down and killing them you prevent the dead ones from killing you ! Well duh...right ? Do you think the live ones are going to be anymore pissed off ? By denying them SUPPORT by killing those who support them ...now get this...YOU REMOVE THEIR BASE OF SUPPORT ..they have to exist without help ..they " gasp " get weaker and less able to ATTACK you..they must just try to survive ...Ummm What a concept right ...see if you are fighting a war you kill the enemy and deny him shelter . Look it up.
And since they wont actually come out in the open prefering to kill innocent civilians you HAVE to track them down !!

Would it be reasonable to say lets track them down and give them cookies and milk ?

Wake UP from your coma . We are involved in a real war . Thats reality .Or would you like to see a few more attacks and more dead people before you actually accept reality ?

Eutrusca

24-09-2005, 17:06

Beer and Guns

24-09-2005, 17:07

My god, you are ignorant and simple-minded, aren't you... Amazing.
And you are a deluded spinless amoeba looking to suckle on the tit of those with the guts to protect you .

For those with reason among you who would like to learn about the threat of terrorism and how many different groups and their stated aims .

http://cfrterrorism.org/home/
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=549
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10412...not all sources are " positive" you get info where you can .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attack
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html
http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/os/september11/index.html
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Hamas+terror+attacks+22-Mar-2004.htm
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000367.html

Eutrusca

24-09-2005, 17:13

Beer and Guns

24-09-2005, 17:21

What do we give to these groups to appease them once we start ?

Proscribed international groups:
The details below on each group's aims is taken from the information given to Parliament at the time of their proscription.

17 November Revolutionary Organisation (N17): N17 is a terrorist organisation that aims to highlight and protest at what it deems to be imperialist and corrupt actions, using violence. Formed in 1974 to oppose the Greek military Junta, its stance was initially anti-Junta and anti-US, which it blamed for supporting the Junta.
Abu Nidal Organisation (ANO): The principal aim of ANO is the destruction of the state of Israel. It is also hostile to "reactionary" Arab regimes and states supporting Israel.
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG): The precise aims of the ASG are unclear, but its objectives appear to include the establishment of an autonomous Islamic state in the Southern Philippine island of Mindanao.
Al-Gama'at al-Islamiya (GI): The main aim of GI is through all means, including the use of violence, to overthrow the Egyptian Government and replace it with an Islamic state. Some members also want the removal of Western influence from the Arab world.
Al Qaida: Inspired and led by Osama Bin Laden, its aims are the expulsion of Western forces from Saudi Arabia, the destruction of Israel and the end of Western influence in the Muslim world.
Armed Islamic Group (Groupe Islamique Armée) (GIA): The aim of the GIA is to create an Islamic state in Algeria using all necessary means, including violence.
Asbat Al-Ansar ('League of Parisans' or 'Band of Helpers'): Sometimes going by the aliases of 'The Abu Muhjin' group/faction or the 'Jama'at Nour', this group aims to enforce its extremist interpretation of Islamic law within Lebanon, and increasingly further afield.
Babbar Khalsa (BK): BK is a Sikh movement that aims to establish an independent Khalistan within the Punjab region of India.
Basque Homeland and Liberty (Euskadi ta Askatasuna) (ETA): ETA seeks the creation of an independent state comprising the Basque regions of both Spain and France.
Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ): The main aim of the EIJ is to overthrow the Egyptian Government and replace it with an Islamic state. However, since September 1998, the leadership of the group has also allied itself to the 'global Jihad' ideology expounded by Osama Bin Laden and has threatened Western interests.
Hamas Izz al-Din al-Qassem Brigades: Hamas aims to end Israeli occupation in Palestine and establish an Islamic state.
Harakat Mujahideen (HM): HM, previously known as Harakat Ul Ansar (HuA), seeks independence for Indian-administered Kashmir. The HM leadership was also a signatory to Osama Bin Laden's 1998 fatwa, which called for worldwide attacks against US and Western interests.
Hizballah External Security Organisation: Hizballah is committed to armed resistance to the state of Israel itself and aims to liberate all Palestinian territories and Jerusalem from Israeli occupation. It maintains a terrorist wing, the External Security Organisation (ESO), to help it achieve this.
International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF): ISYF is an organisation committed to the creation of an independent state of Khalistan for Sikhs within India.
Islamic Army of Aden (IAA): The IAA's aims are the overthrow of the current Yemeni government and the establishment of an Islamic State following Sharia Law.
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU): The primary aim of IMU is to establish an Islamic state in the model of the Taleban in Uzbekistan. However, the IMU is reported to also seek to establish a broader state over the entire Turkestan area.
Jaish e Mohammed (JeM): JeM seeks the 'liberation' of Kashmir from Indian control as well as the 'destruction' of America and India. JeM has a stated objective of unifying the various Kashmiri militant groups.
Jeemah Islamiyah (JI): JI's aim is the creation of a unified Islamic state in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Southern Philippines.
Kurdistan Workers' Party (Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan) (PKK): The PKK is primarily a separatist movement that has sought an independent Kurdish state in southeast Turkey.
Lashkar e Tayyaba (LT): LT seeks independence for Kashmir and the creation of an Islamic state using violent means.
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE): The LTTE is a terrorist group fighting for a separate Tamil state in the North and East of Sri Lanka.
Mujaheddin e Khalq (MeK): The MeK is an Iranian dissident organisation based in Iraq. It claims to be seeking the establishment of a democratic, socialist, Islamic republic in Iran.
Palestinian Islamic Jihad - Shaqaqi (PIJ): PIJ is a Shi'a group which aims to end the Israeli occupation of Palestine and create an Islamic state similar to that in Iran. It opposes the existence of the state of Israel, the Middle East Peace Process and the Palestinian Authority.
Revolutionary Peoples' Liberation Party - Front (Devrimci Halk Kurtulus Partisi - Cephesi) (DHKP-C): DHKP-C aims to establish a Marxist Leninist regime in Turkey by means of armed revolutionary struggle.
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (Groupe Salafiste pour la Predication et le Combat) (GSPC): Its aim is to create an Islamic state in Algeria using all necessary means, including violence.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/terrorism/threat/groups/

There's more but I found it on the internet and they are long ass list . :p
Lets be reasonable .

This is a good one for those with reason who are interested in what the groups are and what they actually claim to want.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm

It also list their perceived strength .

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpmain.htm

List of known terror organizations

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups.cfm

if you wish to have a reasoned learned discussion on the subject of terrorist here are sites that attempt to explain it .

http://www.terrorism.com/
http://www.ict.org.il/
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror.htm
http://www.terrorism.net/
http://www.cia.gov/terrorism/

Veiws from the left and right
http://www.braunston.com/kevin/news/terror04.html
http://www.tagorda.com/archives/003606.php
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/31/wcons31.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/12/31/ixportaltop.html
http://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/250.asp
http://www.uncommonknowledge.org/800/830.html

Some history

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/sept_11/changing_faces_01.shtml
http://www.cdi.org/friendlyversion/printversion.cfm?documentID=1502
This is a good one with Pictures ! For those reasonable among us who wish to learn a subject before entering an argument about it .
http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm

Those who think the US is a terrorist state .. :rolleyes:
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2002/US-Peaceful-Nation.htm
They make a few points ...

A must read for thos who wish to attempt to understand the WHY of terrorism in the Mid East .

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/terrorism.html

History lesson
http://terrorism.about.com/od/historyofterrorism/a/concisehistory.htm

You see I read this crap ..all these long ass lists and others..I try to be informed on a subject before I enter into a discussion . If I am not I sit back and listen and learn .

The Helghan Empire

24-09-2005, 18:11

I don't see how it would be reduced. That faggat bin Laden won't stop until Islam is spread through the world. He clearly has issues, or he's way too obsessed. Either way, he's a retarded fag.

Tarakaze

24-09-2005, 20:11

For all you loonys without a clue. this is what one crop of terrorist dickheads wants. cant wait to see the society after the looneys give in
*snip*
Well, that chap puts his ideas across well, if nothing else.

Strength is not dependant solely on your ability to win a fight, but also your ability to admit when you're wrong and back off.
True.

Personally, I believe we should pull out of every country we have a base in, all of them. Europe would obviously be a better place without our ignorant, ugly American faces and money. We will save TONS of money, and be able to emplace enough forces to complete the missions we have. That will reduce terrorism against Americans, by removing more targets overseas, and employing greater force concentrations where needed, like along the US/Mexico border.
Aw, you folk are all right in small doses...

Chellis

24-09-2005, 22:27

Ok lets be reasonable .

I wont post all of the responses saying the United States should remove all its troops from the Middle East and that the US should not support Israel .
I wont post all of the responses in this very same thread that claim that all the terrorist want is for us to leave the middle east specificaly there holy lands etc. and stop supporting Israel .
I wont just copy and paste the title of this thread or the poll its questions or its results . I wont even post the definition of appeasement .
No it wouldnt be reasonable and I doubt there is the bandwidth .

But I will say you are clearly wrong because when you say that the US should remove its troops you are ..." drum roll please " ....saying ....I give UP I will do as you demand ! Sorry for not breaking out my long ass list that I found on the internet ...Osama Bin- Ladens demands...I found them on the internet so they must be fake... :rolleyes: They cant be true... :p

The United States could pull it off but it will take a while . If the enemy's demands were reasonable and if giving in to the enemy would not cost you more than having him stay your enemy . Please explain how giving in to a terrorist organisation ..at this point..could possibly benifit. And since we are dealing with more than one group how do we close this pandoras box of caving in to terrorist demands that you yourself just advocated ; you give the enemy a little of what he wants, to the point that you can handle it, as long as it benefits you " Please if I am wrong correct me .

Again I see no one wants to actually think about ...never mind answer this one . But lets reason this out shall we.
The United States the only super power in the world with a global military presence . recognises and accepts terrorist demands despite its treaty aggreements and its support for Israel and other moderate Arab countrys in the region . The world press trumpets the defeat by terrorist of this once great nation while its friends wonder what will happen now with the terrorist suddenly becomming a legitimate threat and with the prestige given by the defeat of the US a force gathering momentum and political strenghth along with hundreds of thousands of supporters emboldened by the victory . Islamic movements in former friends of the US have sprung up and demanded that the governments step down . Al- queda claims that its goal of a global Islamic state is at hand . Syria -Iran -Libia - form an alliance to protect each other from Israel and announce a joint nucular armament project . Iran offers to sell its technology to all enemys of the Israeli interlopers . Iraqi shiites although in the middle of a civil war with the Kurds in the North and the remenants of the Sunnis that have survived the Iraqi genocide , with the support of Iran have aggreedcto form a closer alliance with Iran . They will soon join the group arrayed Israel . The King of Jordan facing the threat of outside Islamist terrorist and internal islamist revolt has abdicated . Jordon is in chaos and attacks by Islamic terrorist on Israels borders increase . The United Nations pulls its collective dick while pacing the halls wondering what to do ...seems the United States cant honor its commitments and the aggreements with the terrorist..and whats the diffence ..who can trust them anyway ? Israel launches an attack on Irans nucular program fearing for its very existence . Iran - Syria - the Islamic republic of Iraq -libia declare war on Israel . After two days of heavy fighting the arab countrys armys are ahnililated by the Isrealis. Missles conatianing poison gas are fired into Israli cities ...Israel responds by firing Nucular missles into Tehran - Bahgdad- Damascus - Tripoli . The Arab leaders all declar Jihad on Isarel . The lament over the non- involvement of the United States in controlling its former ally is beginning to swell . World opinion blames the United States for not responding to the crisis. Its estimated the casualties in the latest Arab Israeli war to be clost to 2.7 million with almost 2 million being civilians . Israel vows to protect its territory and says it will never again leave the occupied lands it has aquired through this latest war . Parts of Syria - Jordon- Lebenon and the Siani will always be Israeli territory . The Arab world vows to remove the Israeli from the Earth. And the wars go on for years- decades.
No oil is being pupmped for years . Economys around the world are devestated . The Islamic states controll what little oil can be pumped from the damaged or destroyed fields .
Global terrorist emboldend by the success of the Al- Queda federation have increased the frequency and the effect of their attacks .

You come up with your own scenario. The funny ones will be the ones that claim the terrorist after forcing the US to leave all went home happy and the world was at peace .

:D Can you say wishfull thinking ? so after the greatest defeat in terrorist history..at this point EVEN if the US says they left because they wanted to...what muslim or Arab or ..guess what YOU tell me who would believe that the US did not cave into terrorist demmands ! :rolleyes: His recruitment pool would flounder ? :D Human nature- history and reality are not your strong points are they ? Did you stop to think what the next target would be ? What the next demmand would be ?
Remember the long ass list that I just happened to find on the internet that detail the Al Queda demmands ? Maybe you really should read the thing .
A reasonable person would . And a reasonable person would accept that a group capable of all that Al _ queda has accomplished over the years even while hiding in caves ! Should not be taken so lightly ! :rolleyes:
really what do you base your fantasy on ?

:eek: Well DUH...lets be reasonable here..ITS FUCKING REALLITY ! Thats what happened so that what you have to deal with !!!! ITS the threat that Actually exist ! Not to mention the Cole the embassys etc. etc. Attacks all over the worlsd ...London - Spain ..wtf are you in a coma ???
Sorry for my little episode there but ...not for nothing..think for a few seconds about that crap you posted . Be reasonable about it .

Yep lets be reasonable about it. You are refusing to accept the mans own words and actions . But thats reasonable . He couldnt be fanatical enough...HOW FUCKING FANATICAL DO YOU HAVE TO BE ????? THEY FLEW FUCKING AIRPLANES FULL OF PEOPLE INTO BUILDINGS FULL OF PEOPLE !!!
WTF ??????????? Think about that statement "
This is being said about a man who attacked the most powerfull nation on earth by convincing people to kill themselves by Hijacking airliners full of people and flying them into the world trade center in New York AND the fucking PENTAGON in D.C. and who know where the other was headed the White House ? Just how fanatical can he be ??? :D

Ok lets be reasonable this statement of yours
in the very same post as this... ?? Well can you explain that ??

:D

Track them down and kill each and every on of them and their supporters.

Now lets be reasonable. They are terrorist they have declared war on this country and its civilians they make no disiction for race sex age ...or whatever. By tracking them down and killing them you prevent the dead ones from killing you ! Well duh...right ? Do you think the live ones are going to be anymore pissed off ? By denying them SUPPORT by killing those who support them ...now get this...YOU REMOVE THEIR BASE OF SUPPORT ..they have to exist without help ..they " gasp " get weaker and less able to ATTACK you..they must just try to survive ...Ummm What a concept right ...see if you are fighting a war you kill the enemy and deny him shelter . Look it up.
And since they wont actually come out in the open prefering to kill innocent civilians you HAVE to track them down !!

Would it be reasonable to say lets track them down and give them cookies and milk ?

Wake UP from your coma . We are involved in a real war . Thats reality .Or would you like to see a few more attacks and more dead people before you actually accept reality ?

Now form that into proper english, with correct grammar, spelling, etc, and I will attempt to argue it. I'm not going to spend an hour deciphering this glob of words.

Chellis

24-09-2005, 22:37

It greatly distresses me to see how many of you think that giving in to terrorists would appease them somehow. Read your history books! Every time we gave in to Hitler, he took another bite out of Europe. The same is true for every other terrorist movement in history. All appeasement does is give encouragement to those who advocate violence to gain their objectives.

To start, appeasment to hitler gained him land, and through that more workers, resources, etc. This supposed appeasment to the terrorists(Which is a misnomer, because it would be an action to do the terrorists harm, not try to get them to stop attacking us), however, wouldn't give the terrorists anything but a small ideological victory. On the other hand, their resources would plummet. They would have to travel over the sea to attack us, not across theocratic muslim borders. They would have a much reduced pool of potential terrorists.

Its not appeasment, its a long term strategy to beat the terrorists. Being on the defense is the advantage. Nobody is saying we should leave the middle east, to make the terrorists happy(well, maybe some, but I cant read minds). We are saying leave the ME, to strip the terrorists of the ability to strike at us.

I see this all the time. Its theory versus reality. In theory, no guns are nice. In reality, the criminals get them. In theory, the terrorists will keep pushing on at america. In reality, they won't have the power to do so anymore. The sad part is, people seem to side on political lines, instead of whats smart. I try to look at the reality of things, not the theory.

Disraeliland

24-09-2005, 23:36

The sea provided a protective barrier centuries ago. Not anymore.

The problem with your idea, Chellis is that it requires all elements of border security to be perfect.

Australia, an island continent, hasn't got perfect border security.

How the United States, with 2 very long, undefended land borders can expect to have it is inconceivable. How Western European nations, which don't have effective borders anymore can expect to secure themselves is inconceivable.

You also disregard immigration. The Australian Government foiled Islamo-fascist attacks against the Israeli embassy, and Jewish figures, and all the suspects were not only Australian citizens, they were Anglo-Celtic, not Arab, or Persian immigrants.

Leonstein

25-09-2005, 01:22

You've made my point for me. With a war, they could forget their financial obligations, and/or pay them off with war booty, and articles seized from Jews.
Maybe I just misunderstood you...I thought you said something along the lines of "they didn't have a choice but to go to war because they'd have collapsed otherwise".

He started down the path as a form of rebelion against his family, so Our involvement has made no difference!
Well, yes, but he would've fizzled out pretty quick after Afghanistan without an enemy.
Afterall, he asked the Saudis whether they wanted his militia to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, but they didn't want to.....

That being said, I think Ayman Al-Zawahiri is about three times more dangerous than Osama Bin Laden.

Beer and Guns

25-09-2005, 02:45

Now form that into proper english, with correct grammar, spelling, etc, and I will attempt to argue it. I'm not going to spend an hour deciphering this glob of words.

Whats that again ? A thin attempt at evading an argument you are not equiped to enter , never mind win . Thats the reality of the situation .

Beer and Guns

25-09-2005, 03:05

To start, appeasment to hitler gained him land, and through that more workers, resources, etc. This supposed appeasment to the terrorists(Which is a misnomer, because it would be an action to do the terrorists harm, not try to get them to stop attacking us), however, wouldn't give the terrorists anything but a small ideological victory. On the other hand, their resources would plummet. They would have to travel over the sea to attack us, not across theocratic muslim borders. They would have a much reduced pool of potential terrorists.

What do you base this dream on ? Do you have inside info that somehow condradicts the stated aim of the terrorist you seem to understand so well ?
And did you forget that appeassement gained Hitler COUNTRIES wich he then raped , while placing the population into slavery and / or killing them .
He gained this through appeasement because he certainly could not have done it through force of arms . You argument is silly on its face. And shows a vast lack of understanding of both the situations and the causes that led to WW2 .

Its not appeasment, its a long term strategy to beat the terrorists. Being on the defense is the advantage. Nobody is saying we should leave the middle east, to make the terrorists happy(well, maybe some, but I cant read minds). We are saying leave the ME, to strip the terrorists of the ability to strike at us.

Being on the defensive is how you lose wars. The winner of the war will do so by an offensive . A defensive strategy will prolong your eventual death if its your strategic goal . Defense is a tactical decision usually based on facing superior force . You refuse to recognise the great moral boost to the terrorist at having won their goals without a fight. And then you discount the fact that although under attack and on the run , with the best army in the world and the powerfull military forces on earth trying to catch and kill them...they attacked Spain and London and continue to attack in Iraq . By what dream or delusion do you see leaving the middle East stripping the terrorist of anything ? Thats a foolish statement on its face . It flys against logic and past experiance .

I see this all the time. Its theory versus reality. In theory, no guns are nice. In reality, the criminals get them. In theory, the terrorists will keep pushing on at america. In reality, they won't have the power to do so anymore. The sad part is, people seem to side on political lines, instead of whats smart. I try to look at the reality of things, not the theory.

You are the living embodyment of theory vs reality . Only your theorys are base on nothing but faulty reasoning. You should at least attempt to show how your theory is even remotely based on some sort of evidence or precident or past practice . Instead of a flawed view of the way the world acts in reality and a very flawed and incomplete view of history .

While you go back and try to actually learn something , and maybe while you are hitting the books you can run spell check on my blobs for me. At least when you are totaly cluless you are able to spell right and form a sentence . I give you credit for that .

Zolworld

25-09-2005, 03:52

any war can be ended quickly and without casualties by simply surrendering. that doesnt mean its the right thing to do though.

Chellis

25-09-2005, 06:44

What do you base this dream on ? Do you have inside info that somehow condradicts the stated aim of the terrorist you seem to understand so well ?
And did you forget that appeassement gained Hitler COUNTRIES wich he then raped , while placing the population into slavery and / or killing them .
He gained this through appeasement because he certainly could not have done it through force of arms . You argument is silly on its face. And shows a vast lack of understanding of both the situations and the causes that led to WW2 .

Right, because he was given poland, france, the lower countries, yugoslavia, most of european russia, etc.

No, when it takes over a billion people to defeat a couple hundred million in war, over 6 years at that, I think they had something strong. Unless Chechoslovakia and Austria increased Germany's power tenfold, I'm inclined to think Nazi Germany was in a strong position to begin with. Did the extra population, etc, help? Im sure. But Germany didn't conquer that much land because of what appeasment gave him. It was a supplement.

On the other hand, the terrorists don't have that initial power. Even now, at their height, they can only make peacemeal attacks on their enemies.

Being on the defensive is how you lose wars. The winner of the war will do so by an offensive . A defensive strategy will prolong your eventual death if its your strategic goal . Defense is a tactical decision usually based on facing superior force . You refuse to recognise the great moral boost to the terrorist at having won their goals without a fight. And then you discount the fact that although under attack and on the run , with the best army in the world and the powerfull military forces on earth trying to catch and kill them...they attacked Spain and London and continue to attack in Iraq . By what dream or delusion do you see leaving the middle East stripping the terrorist of anything ? Thats a foolish statement on its face . It flys against logic and past experiance .

Being on the offensive is not always a good policy. Offense is good, but only to a point. World war one, the germans wasted huge amounts of manpower, trying to break defensive lines in France. France holds the defense, and only when it has the advantage(America on its side, tanks, superior airpower, etc), does it begin a large offensive, after the german back is already broken.

But this is not a conventional war, so I will concede that the point doesn't transfer. Instead of looking at other things, lets look directly at this.

Offensive: We go into muslim countries, on the "offensive". We don't know who is a terrorist and who isn't. The best we can do is counterattack their offensives, and make peacemeal attacks on their forces. Not only do we subject ourselves to the defense of an enemy, who has the ability to ambush us perfectly, but we allow ourselves to fight them where their supply lines are the best. In addition, us going on the offensive boosts their recruitment levels, something you still have not countered.

Defense: Instead of spending hundreds of billions of dollars, to let them have easier shots on us, we could base our men at home. Its safe to assume they are already trying to plan more attacks on america. But they havn't hit us here again, yet.

With 200 billion dollars boosted into homeland security, we could greatly increase air defense, border control, etc. A 9/11 situation would be incredibly less likely if we had a national air defense system, tracking everything in the sky, able to hit anything in the sky. There is always the possibility of bus bombings, etc, but there is no reason to assume that would increase if we pulled out of the middle east.

I'm not being shown why, practically, staying in the Middle East would put us in a better vantage point. Please, explain to me how the situation would be worse for us if we pulled out. Please.

You are the living embodyment of theory vs reality . Only your theorys are base on nothing but faulty reasoning. You should at least attempt to show how your theory is even remotely based on some sort of evidence or precident or past practice . Instead of a flawed view of the way the world acts in reality and a very flawed and incomplete view of history .

And your theory of hunting down terrorists and killing them pans out perfectly? Yes, Im sure its practical to walk into muslim countries, point out terrorists, and gun them down.

I have shown why my point would work. You havn't refuted it. You pull world war two references, and talk about how appeasment doesn't work. You talk about how, ideologically, Osama bin laden won't stop. These are theory. You have yet to give a practical reason why leaving the Middle East would make things worse for us. I'm waiting.

While you go back and try to actually learn something , and maybe while you are hitting the books you can run spell check on my blobs for me. At least when you are totaly cluless you are able to spell right and form a sentence . I give you credit for that .

Go back? Go back where? I wasn't aware I came anywhere. I'm totally clueless? Right, and you are just bursting with relevant information.

By the way, I would slit my wrists before venturing on your blogs. At least here, people have a good way of countering your horrid ideas.

Chellis

25-09-2005, 06:45

any war can be ended quickly and without casualties by simply surrendering. that doesnt mean its the right thing to do though.

Surrenduring usually means the other person wins.

Pulling out of the Middle east might win the terrorists a battle, but not the war. Just because you throw all your manpower into one battle and win, hardly means you have won the war.

Leonstein

25-09-2005, 06:49

...World war one, the germans wasted huge amounts of manpower, trying to break defensive lines in France. France holds the defense, and only when it has the advantage(America on its side, tanks, superior airpower, etc), does it begin a large offensive, after the german back is already broken...
Nope. France did attack when it could, but by the time things got really hot, around Verdun, they had had to fight a superior enemy with inferior tactics - they had to work very hard simply to hold their lines together.

Eutrusca

25-09-2005, 06:49

Leonstein

25-09-2005, 06:54

"Starve the enemy by leaving him alone?" Interesting "theory." :(
You starve them of recruits.
If young Muslims don't see unfair treatment, don't see their "holy grounds", their governments at the mercy of foreigners (unbelieving foreigners at that), then why would they still want to go and become a Terrorist?
If you don't credit these boys (and girls) with any kind of rationality, then I'd like to see your reasoning for that - and why you presumably wouldn't act on that reasoning with other groups of people.

Chellis

25-09-2005, 06:57

Nope. France did attack when it could, but by the time things got really hot, around Verdun, they had had to fight a superior enemy with inferior tactics - they had to work very hard simply to hold their lines together.

Strategic, not tactical offensive. Attacks were made, of course, but the defensive side in the war generally did better, until a grand offensive could be made. Which is my point.

Chellis

25-09-2005, 07:01

"Starve the enemy by leaving him alone?" Interesting "theory." :(

Maybe not too logical, but doesn't make it wrong. Its best to use the 9/11 example.

If the US hadn't had 9/11 occur, we wouldn't have thrown nearly so much weight at the terrorists, as if 3,000 in austria died by terrorists.

If the terrorists said that they wanted to cease hostilities with america, does that mean we would suddenly go bombing more nations, because we think we could get away with it? I hope to dear god not.

You just have to be practical. The terrorists don't have enough power to win a war with us, either way. They can break our will by killing our people, and thats about it. And its alot easier to kill people in iraq, than in america(Sure, 9/11, but with similar iraq money poured into air defense, 9/11 wouldn't have occured).

Leonstein

25-09-2005, 07:02

Strategic, not tactical offensive. Attacks were made, of course, but the defensive side in the war generally did better, until a grand offensive could be made. Which is my point.
http://www.worldwar1.com/france/jpff1914.htm

The "Grand Offensive" was attempted about a billion times, it just happened to work in 1918. Just a few weeks before, another Grand Offensive was entirely possible - that of Germany, which almost ended the war for the other side.

That being said, it's of no importance to your argument, and thus discussing it is pretty much a waste of time... ;)

Chellis

25-09-2005, 07:13

http://www.worldwar1.com/france/jpff1914.htm

The "Grand Offensive" was attempted about a billion times, it just happened to work in 1918. Just a few weeks before, another Grand Offensive was entirely possible - that of Germany, which almost ended the war for the other side.

That being said, it's of no importance to your argument, and thus discussing it is pretty much a waste of time... ;)

Hate people like you :P

Soviet Haaregrad

25-09-2005, 08:32

I don't see how it would be reduced. That faggat bin Laden won't stop until Islam is spread through the world. He clearly has issues, or he's way too obsessed. Either way, he's a retarded fag.

This kids, is an example of how to look stupid online.
;)

Disraeliland

25-09-2005, 08:37

You starve them of recruits.
If young Muslims don't see unfair treatment, don't see their "holy grounds", their governments at the mercy of foreigners (unbelieving foreigners at that), then why would they still want to go and become a Terrorist?
If you don't credit these boys (and girls) with any kind of rationality, then I'd like to see your reasoning for that - and why you presumably wouldn't act on that reasoning with other groups of people.

You probably should look at Germany's history. The fanatacism with which Hitler Youths fought had nothing to do with rationality, and everything to do with long-term indoctrination.

Beer and Guns

25-09-2005, 08:39

Right, because he was given poland, france, the lower countries, yugoslavia, most of european russia, etc.

No, when it takes over a billion people to defeat a couple hundred million in war, over 6 years at that, I think they had something strong. Unless Chechoslovakia and Austria increased Germany's power tenfold, I'm inclined to think Nazi Germany was in a strong position to begin with. Did the extra population, etc, help? Im sure. But Germany didn't conquer that much land because of what appeasment gave him. It was a supplement.

On the other hand, the terrorists don't have that initial power. Even now, at their height, they can only make peacemeal attacks on their enemies.

Being on the offensive is not always a good policy. Offense is good, but only to a point. World war one, the germans wasted huge amounts of manpower, trying to break defensive lines in France. France holds the defense, and only when it has the advantage(America on its side, tanks, superior airpower, etc), does it begin a large offensive, after the german back is already broken.

But this is not a conventional war, so I will concede that the point doesn't transfer. Instead of looking at other things, lets look directly at this.

Offensive: We go into muslim countries, on the "offensive". We don't know who is a terrorist and who isn't. The best we can do is counterattack their offensives, and make peacemeal attacks on their forces. Not only do we subject ourselves to the defense of an enemy, who has the ability to ambush us perfectly, but we allow ourselves to fight them where their supply lines are the best. In addition, us going on the offensive boosts their recruitment levels, something you still have not countered.

Defense: Instead of spending hundreds of billions of dollars, to let them have easier shots on us, we could base our men at home. Its safe to assume they are already trying to plan more attacks on america. But they havn't hit us here again, yet.

With 200 billion dollars boosted into homeland security, we could greatly increase air defense, border control, etc. A 9/11 situation would be incredibly less likely if we had a national air defense system, tracking everything in the sky, able to hit anything in the sky. There is always the possibility of bus bombings, etc, but there is no reason to assume that would increase if we pulled out of the middle east.

I'm not being shown why, practically, staying in the Middle East would put us in a better vantage point. Please, explain to me how the situation would be worse for us if we pulled out. Please.

And your theory of hunting down terrorists and killing them pans out perfectly? Yes, Im sure its practical to walk into muslim countries, point out terrorists, and gun them down.

I have shown why my point would work. You havn't refuted it. You pull world war two references, and talk about how appeasment doesn't work. You talk about how, ideologically, Osama bin laden won't stop. These are theory. You have yet to give a practical reason why leaving the Middle East would make things worse for us. I'm waiting.

Go back? Go back where? I wasn't aware I came anywhere. I'm totally clueless? Right, and you are just bursting with relevant information.

By the way, I would slit my wrists before venturing on your blogs. At least here, people have a good way of countering your horrid ideas.

All right lets talk history.

Germany and appeasement .

The first time germany was appeased when they should have been stopped was in the Rhineland . Germany moved troops in defiance of the Versaille treaty that ended WW2 into the Rhineland france and Britain were obligated to remove them by force if neccessary in an effort to appease Hitler the leaders of Great Britain did not support France and France did nothing .
we could also talk about the disarmament treaty that Germany broke and were ignored by france and Britain to " keep the peace " .
The second and one of the most digusting pieces of diplomacy ..at least until the next one ..was the Austrian " Anschluss " when france and Britain and Italy instead of guaranteeing the sovergnty of Austria allowed ...no encouraged ...its leader to give in ..when they were supposed to come to their aid. without the support of its allies Austria could not fight germany and because of leaders with no balls what so ever , Austria fell to Germany .Hitler promptly made Austria cease to exist by claiming it was part of Germany .
Go look for your self what happened to its people and its culture and its wealth . Britain and France could have prevented it . They thought that keeping the peace by appeasement was better. Say good bye to Austria .
Next on the hit list ..and after countless speaches by Hitler that he had no more demands for territory etc...we have the sad story of Czechoslovakia a proud sovergn Democracy with treatys with Both France and Britain that said they would come to her aid when thretened . An Ally and freind...a model Democracy for the time . The Czechs had a very strong army modeled on germanys almost . A strong defensive posture and with help from France and Britain would have kicked Germanys ass if war started at that time .
well that didnt stop 'ol Hitler knowing he was dealing with the biggest bunch of pussies since he stole lunch money at reccess he went for more...he asked for a huge chunk of Czechloslovakia called the Sudetanland (sp) ..and guess what the punk ass idiots lead by the head pussy Neville Chamberland GAVE Hitler the sudetenland ...How could Britain give Hitler a piece of another country you ask ? Good fucking question ! The Czechs wondered also but were pressured by the pussy patroll to give in by simply them saying we wont HONOR our defense treatys ..we do not want war so your shit out of luck..
so bye bye czechloslovakia..it was nice knowing you...BUT we got a great picture of the asshole Neville Chamberlain holding up a news paper that said " We have secured PEACE in our time " At what cost you ask...at the time the people CHEERED ! Yayyyyyy no war , your my hero , war sucks !!!!!!

Well we all know how that turned out..Stalin seeing what a bunch of back stabbing pussy bastards the British and French were joined " HITLER " :eek:
instead of allying with the french and the British...not that it mattered because they were afraid of communism and were stalling anyway...but from all this we get WORLD WAR TWO ...a war birthed in appesement. A war that did not have to happen if the countrys involved had some balls and did the HONORABLE and RIGHT thing.
Thats why appeasement is a BAD thing ...THE END .

Chellis

25-09-2005, 08:48

All right lets talk history.

Germany and appeasement .

The first time germany was appeased when they should have been stopped was in the Rhineland . Germany moved troops in defiance of the Versaille treaty that ended WW2 into the Rhineland france and Britain were obligated to remove them by force if neccessary in an effort to appease Hitler the leaders of Great Britain did not support France and France did nothing .
we could also talk about the disarmament treaty that Germany broke and were ignored by france and Britain to " keep the peace " .
The second and one of the most digusting pieces of diplomacy ..at least until the next one ..was the Austrian " Anschluss " when france and Britain and Italy instead of guaranteeing the sovergnty of Austria allowed ...no encouraged ...its leader to give in ..when they were supposed to come to their aid. without the support of its allies Austria could not fight germany and because of leaders with no balls what so ever , Austria fell to Germany .Hitler promptly made Austria cease to exist by claiming it was part of Germany .
Go look for your self what happened to its people and its culture and its wealth . Britain and France could have prevented it . They thought that keeping the peace by appeasement was better. Say good bye to Austria .
Next on the hit list ..and after countless speaches by Hitler that he had no more demands for territory etc...we have the sad story of Czechoslovakia a proud sovergn Democracy with treatys with Both France and Britain that said they would come to her aid when thretened . An Ally and freind...a model Democracy for the time . The Czechs had a very strong army modeled on germanys almost . A strong defensive posture and with help from France and Britain would have kicked Germanys ass if war started at that time .
well that didnt stop 'ol Hitler knowing he was dealing with the biggest bunch of pussies since he stole lunch money at reccess he went for more...he asked for a huge chunk of Czechloslovakia called the Sudetanland (sp) ..and guess what the punk ass idiots lead by the head pussy Neville Chamberland GAVE Hitler the sudetenland ...How could Britain give Hitler a piece of another country you ask ? Good fucking question ! The Czechs wondered also but were pressured by the pussy patroll to give in by simply them saying we wont HONOR our defense treatys ..we do not want war so your shit out of luck..
so bye bye czechloslovakia..it was nice knowing you...BUT we got a great picture of the asshole Neville Chamberlain holding up a news paper that said " We have secured PEACE in our time " At what cost you ask...at the time the people CHEERED ! Yayyyyyy no war , your my hero , war sucks !!!!!!

Well we all know how that turned out..Stalin seeing what a bunch of back stabbing pussy bastards the British and French were joined " HITLER " :eek:
instead of allying with the french and the British...not that it mattered because they were afraid of communism and were stalling anyway...but from all this we get WORLD WAR TWO ...a war birthed in appesement. A war that did not have to happen if the countrys involved had some balls and did the HONORABLE and RIGHT thing.
Thats why appeasement is a BAD thing ...THE END .

So instead of refuting my actual points, you throw world war two stuff at me, and end it with a message that has nothing to do with what I'm advocating?

A. Not advocating appeasment. Get this through.

B. If they hadn't appeased germany, and germany had spent time building up its forces, it still would have done very well in the war. The only reason the outcome of the war would have been different, is because France barely lost the battle of france(Not as in it was close, but that if things were slightly more on the side of france, it probably would have won). Its regardless, anyways. Hitler lost either way. Appeasment did give the allies time to build up their militaries as well. Not that I'm advocating it, but appeasment hardly was the biggest part of german victory.

C. Instead of arguing world war two, you might want to actually argue the point?

D. Can you please try to type in a way thats easier to read? Its incredibly annoying to read your long blocks of text, which are even harder to read because of bad grammar and spelling. I come on here to debate, not translate.

Beer and Guns

25-09-2005, 09:04

And your theory of hunting down terrorists and killing them pans out perfectly? Yes, Im sure its practical to walk into muslim countries, point out terrorists, and gun them down.

Ahhh lets discuss this shall we . ;)

I said we have to TRACK DOWN THE TERRORIST AND THOSE THAT SUPPORT THEM AND KILL THEM

EEEEK you say !! YOU BRUTE you say....how DISGUSTING...etc. etc.

Now once your mind has finished taking those big bold print words and made a hollywood script , then a movie with the terminator running amok slaughtering every Muslim he see's ...with the blood flying the people screeming ...Eeek aaaarg ooooooh ...run for it maggots ...etc. etc.

lets see what it means. Calmly and reasonably .

Fact we are at war with terrorist

That means we have to identify and pursue them to bring them into action and hopefully kill or capture all of them . If we can do that the war ends.
Its that simple and that difficult. because you have a valid point ! :eek:
We cant just go into a Muslim country we are not at war with and chase the bastards down . We have to prove they are there and then ask permission to go get them or ask the country they are in to deal with it for us .
JUST LIKE WE ARE DOING WITH PAKISTAN !! You do know that scumbag Osama is in the tribal highlands in Pakistanni territory , dont you ? we have every reason to believe it but to my knowlage do not know exactly where . So we wait for an oppurtunity . you are jumping to conclusions ...perhaps its because words like KILL and track down and destroy etc. etc. scare you ?
But thats what war is . The reality is we are at war . If you want to win you find the enemy and destroy him .
We have proved that a country that harbors terrorist and gives them support is in danger of becomming liberated and run over by democracy .
That is a huge detterent and helps by limiting the places they can hide .
so we get most of them in hiding trying not to get killed or in Iraq trying not to get killed before they can blow themselves up for virgins and Osama .
Unless of course they are in Britain or Spain blowing up the transit systems .

So are we clear now on what I am advocating ?

Later we can get into the whole plan or the carrot part . The stick part seems to be getting all your pantys in a bunch .
But the Carrot starts with democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq. Self rule and a chance at economic success..instead of the hoplessness thats breeds terrorist.. You see I do not think that having troops in the Middle East breeds terrorist. Hopless economic conditions and a sense of worthlessness along with no say in your government along with no hope for the future is what makes people want to kill others and blow themselves up.
Soldiers in the sand is just a fucking excuse to try to alleviate the disease.
The conditions in the Middle East breed terror NOT soldiers that most people only hear about.

Chellis

25-09-2005, 09:16

Ahhh lets discuss this shall we . ;)

I said we have to TRACK DOWN THE TERRORIST AND THOSE THAT SUPPORT THEM AND KILL THEM

EEEEK you say !! YOU BRUTE you say....how DISGUSTING...etc. etc.

Now once your mind has finished taking those big bold print words and made a hollywood script , then a movie with the terminator running amok slaughtering every Muslim he see's ...with the blood flying the people screeming ...Eeek aaaarg ooooooh ...run for it maggots ...etc. etc.

lets see what it means. Calmly and reasonably .

Fact we are at war with terrorist

That means we have to identify and pursue them to bring them into action and hopefully kill or capture all of them . If we can do that the war ends.
Its that simple and that difficult. because you have a valid point ! :eek:
We cant just go into a Muslim country we are not at war with and chase the bastards down . We have to prove they are there and then ask permission to go get them or ask the country they are in to deal with it for us .
JUST LIKE WE ARE DOING WITH PAKISTAN !! You do know that scumbag Osama is in the tribal highlands in Pakistanni territory , dont you ? we have every reason to believe it but to my knowlage do not know exactly where . So we wait for an oppurtunity . you are jumping to conclusions ...perhaps its because words like KILL and track down and destroy etc. etc. scare you ?
But thats what war is . The reality is we are at war . If you want to win you find the enemy and destroy him .
We have proved that a country that harbors terrorist and gives them support is in danger of becomming liberated and run over by democracy .
That is a huge detterent and helps by limiting the places they can hide .
so we get most of them in hiding trying not to get killed or in Iraq trying not to get killed before they can blow themselves up for virgins and Osama .
Unless of course they are in Britain or Spain blowing up the transit systems .

So are we clear now on what I am advocating ?

Later we can get into the whole plan or the carrot part . The stick part seems to be getting all your pantys in a bunch .
But the Carrot starts with democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq. Self rule and a chance at economic success..instead of the hoplessness thats breeds terrorist.. You see I do not think that having troops in the Middle East breeds terrorist. Hopless economic conditions and a sense of worthlessness along with no say in your government along with no hope for the future is what makes people want to kill othersand blow themselves up.
Soldiers in the sand is just a fucking excuse to try to alleviate the disease.
The conditions in the Middle East breed terror NOT soldiers that most peopel only hear about.

Again, you need to type in a way people can make better sense of what you say. This time, not because its hard to read, but because the way you talked in the start of the thread, you pretty much gave the impression that you wanted to just kill them all, with no regard to the difficulty therein.

Who said I'm scared of anything? Its funny, but completely made up.

To win a war, you don't have to hunt down and kill the enemy. That is incredibly broad. You can't win a war without manpower. If we stopped the flow of manpower to the terrorists, they couldn't fight us. Thats winning by default.

We havn't really proved that we attack terrorist nations. We attacked Afghanistan, thats one. We attacked Iraq over fake WMD. We support Saudi Arabia, who brings a great share of terrorists. Pakistan too(they hardly help us at all. They say they do, but its bs. Sending a few troops into the hills for a terrorist hunt usually ends up with a few dead paki's, and thats about it.). It doesn't seem like any middle eastern nations that weren't already in bed with us, are more afraid now. They are simply emboldened by attacks on their homelands.

In iraq, we are killing very few terrorists. Who we are killing are mainly civilians, insurgents, and foreign fighters. While associable with terrorists, its not on par. The numbers of new terrorists, etc are growing faster than we are killing them. Iraq is just giving them more recruits, and more real experience, to attack the US with. Most of those who die are lower echelon people, with a tiny amount of highers in there. The people in the middle, the ones who would attack america, are the ones learning from this.

Attacking iraq lowered the number of terrorists? Certainly not the muslim ones. Osama bin laden, and by association al-queda, hated Iraq for its secular government, etc. Iraq may or may not have had a few of its own terrorists, but the tiny number of its homegrowns that we take out pale in comparison to all that is being gained currently.

Beer and Guns

25-09-2005, 09:22

So instead of refuting my actual points, you throw world war two stuff at me, and end it with a message that has nothing to do with what I'm advocating?

A. Not advocating appeasment. Get this through.

B. If they hadn't appeased germany, and germany had spent time building up its forces, it still would have done very well in the war. The only reason the outcome of the war would have been different, is because France barely lost the battle of france(Not as in it was close, but that if things were slightly more on the side of france, it probably would have won). Its regardless, anyways. Hitler lost either way. Appeasment did give the allies time to build up their militaries as well. Not that I'm advocating it, but appeasment hardly was the biggest part of german victory.

C. Instead of arguing world war two, you might want to actually argue the point?

D. Can you please try to type in a way thats easier to read? Its incredibly annoying to read your long blocks of text, which are even harder to read because of bad grammar and spelling. I come on here to debate, not translate.

A little quick on the keyboard are we ?

From what I have seen you are not capable of debating WW2 . But I would be happy to teach you if care to listen . I have over twentyfive years of study on the subject along with other aspects of American and World History.
so if you care to listen you may learn something .
I cant type ..never could ...if you think this is bad you should go back a few years . shame I spent all them years reading and researching instead of typing.
You are arguing appeasment if you declare that the US should remove its troops from the middle east . Thats a fact , it wont change no matter how you try to word it . The whole reason it was brought into the discussion is because it is thought that reasonable people would have learned the lesson . You are so far off base in your understanding of WW2 that I guess they were wrong . Seriously your comments are a barrell of laughs. You see the whole point of the appeasement issue is this ; THERE WOULD NEVER HAD BEEN A WORLD WAR TWO IF NOT FOR APPEASMENT
So you tell me how is it relevant to giving into terrorist demmands ?

Beer and Guns

25-09-2005, 09:35

Again, you need to type in a way people can make better sense of what you say. This time, not because its hard to read, but because the way you talked in the start of the thread, you pretty much gave the impression that you wanted to just kill them all, with no regard to the difficulty therein.

Who said I'm scared of anything? Its funny, but completely made up.

To win a war, you don't have to hunt down and kill the enemy. That is incredibly broad. You can't win a war without manpower. If we stopped the flow of manpower to the terrorists, they couldn't fight us. Thats winning by default.

We havn't really proved that we attack terrorist nations. We attacked Afghanistan, thats one. We attacked Iraq over fake WMD. We support Saudi Arabia, who brings a great share of terrorists. Pakistan too(they hardly help us at all. They say they do, but its bs. Sending a few troops into the hills for a terrorist hunt usually ends up with a few dead paki's, and thats about it.). It doesn't seem like any middle eastern nations that weren't already in bed with us, are more afraid now. They are simply emboldened by attacks on their homelands.

In iraq, we are killing very few terrorists. Who we are killing are mainly civilians, insurgents, and foreign fighters. While associable with terrorists, its not on par. The numbers of new terrorists, etc are growing faster than we are killing them. Iraq is just giving them more recruits, and more real experience, to attack the US with. Most of those who die are lower echelon people, with a tiny amount of highers in there. The people in the middle, the ones who would attack america, are the ones learning from this.

Attacking iraq lowered the number of terrorists? Certainly not the muslim ones. Osama bin laden, and by association al-queda, hated Iraq for its secular government, etc. Iraq may or may not have had a few of its own terrorists, but the tiny number of its homegrowns that we take out pale in comparison to all that is being gained currently.

look you asked me to respond to the thread title correct ?

I tried to do it in a very short and simple way

But the Carrot starts with democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq. Self rule and a chance at economic success..instead of the hoplessness thats breeds terrorist.. You see I do not think that having troops in the Middle East breeds terrorist. Hopless economic conditions and a sense of worthlessness along with no say in your government along with no hope for the future is what makes people want to kill others and blow themselves up.
Soldiers in the sand is just a fucking excuse to try to alleviate the disease.
The conditions in the Middle East breed terror NOT soldiers that most people only hear about.

That answers you does it not ?

BTW I get my ideas on war from generals and others that write biographys and courses for war college and people like Clauswitz and by actually studying battles that have been fought and how they were won or lost .
What exactly are you basing your " manpower " theory on ? Its funny as hell but not very valid . Especially when you consider it only takes one guy with a suitcase full of explosives or a bag with a nerve agent in it to kill hundreds or thousands of people . A good war plan will include both offense and defensive measures and a good understanding of what the enemy can do . Terrorist organizations are by nature small and compartmentalised. When you look at the scope of the potential " talent ' pool for terrorist you should realise that only by changing attitudes and conditions will you limit the manpower..they need a reason to live ...they can always find a reason to die .

To win a war, you don't have to hunt down and kill the enemy. That is incredibly broad.

You actually wrote this / :D

only if you want to win as fast as possible and limit your exposure to the enemys attacks ... ;) Not for nothing there's no rule saying you cant hunt them bring them to action , strangle their support and logistics and choke their manpower at the same time ..in fact some might argue that thats actually a great way to fight and win a war .

Fishyguy

25-09-2005, 18:38

I replied to all 10 pages of posts at once... enjoy!
I would be curious to find out what would happen to all the terrorists if the United States pulled out all of its troops from all Muslim countries. Without a common enemy to unite them, the terrorist groups would likely split off into competing factions. As has happened in Africa, the lack of a strong government authority will lead to warlords fighting to gain power.
It seems that much of the complaining done by terrorists is that we are on Muslim soil where we have no right being. Either that, or America is the devil.
Along with this we would cut off all military aid to Isreal. How about America stops sending weapons to all foreign aggressors?
Terrorists could either glee over our withdraw and strike harder or perhaps feel satisfied we are not on their soil and propping up a Jewish state. Although removing all American military forces from major-Islamic countries will not by any means solve the problem of terrorism, it would be a huge first step.
If the USA did that what would the next demand be? Removal of all non-Islamic interference and threats from the eastern hemisphere. The right to run their own countries as they see fit without any outside intervention.
Would the US have any prestige with the rest of the world after it caved into a bunch of terrorist? Is the USA willing to pay any price to keep up its ego as an invincible superpower? What of Vietnam, or Somalia? The USA has lost wars before, and is still going strong.
Would not every idiot with a complaint or an adgenda follow the example of a sussessfull terrorist campaign and start beheading and blowing up people to make a point or force a demand? You are under the false impression that this is the first time in history when any nation has had to deal with terrorism. Terrorism is not some new, unconventional style of warfare, it has existed for many hundreds of years.
Your problem is you think you are dealing with rational people. Your problem is believing that anyone is rational.
I guess the US would have to give up any attempts at having diplomatic relations with all the governments that used to think they could count on them. Why? The USA does not need to act as the global police force, but it does not need to hide from the world either.
I like tracking down and killing each and every one of them better. I hope that was sarcasm... After reading your next post, I can't remember a worse case of paranoid allegations.
TERRORISM IS A METHOD! NOT AN IDEOLOGY! NOT SOMETHING THAT GOES HAND AND HAND WITH ISLAM! Thank you for making that destinction, I was worried that the words terrorist and Muslim were being interchanged.
Kll each and every one of them . Track them down and exterminate them and whomever would give them support. Yeah, because that's not anything like what we're fighting against. :confused:

[From the article provided by Beer and Guns]
"(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.
(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.
(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting (Israel) because this will result in more disasters for you."

Wow, that was very unexpected and irrational. You're right Beer and Guns, the USA would be a total waste if we listened to this... (Haha, sarcasm)
I also know what would help lessen terrorism, a reformation amongst Islam (followed by an enlightenment, Renaissance and the rest of the good things that happened to western europe.) A reformation from within Islam would greatly help. However, this is unlikely to be initiated while they are united against a common enemy. Remember, it took over 1,500 years to reform Christianity, then consider Islam was not founded until around 500 years after Christianity started, so we could have awhile to wait. About the Renaissance, it was actually the Crusades and re-opening of Mediterranean trade with the Middle East that planted the seeds for the European Renaissance, but that's another story.
Besides no one even knows if Bin Laden is even still alive. Unless evidence of his death is presented, we can only continue to assume that he is alive and operating. Even if he is not conducting terrorist missions, his image and the loyalty he exudes still continues to exist.
It will be until ONE race is destroyed utterly. Or until two peoples learn to coexist, that they are valuable to each others' survival, and not a threat.
They'd still go suicide bombing themselves in public places, only there'd be none of us to kill. This doesn't quite make sense. These people do not commit suicide because it's fun. They have a political agenda. If all American military forces left, and they were pleased with the new government, the terrorist groups would probably get back to their jobs and families. They would disperse because there would be nothing to fight against. Of course, the more dedicated of the bunch might head to Israel or even the USA, but this is not preventable by occupying a foreign nation.
Then they'd start committing terrorism because infidels are on the same planet as them. It won't stop just because we leave. A terrorist group with a purely religious agenda may have this in mind, but again, this cannot be resolved by occupying their country. We must show our willingness to cooperate at living together, rather than oppressing their views.

Aggretia, I just wanted to thank you for your well thought-out post. I agree with your views.
Go for it ! You tell them ! Protecting them Israelis is a bad policy ! Who cares if the Arabs would kill every man women and child if they could ! They should be used to it by now right ? And when the war to wipe each other out starts we can all sit back and watch a nucular holocost wipe out half of the middle east ! That should be fun! Odd, Aggretia never mentioned supporting a nuclear holocaust. There is a difference between supporting a nuclear war and supporting national sovereignty and the right to self-rule. Your personal attacks against other members are becoming quite offensive and say more about your inability to join in a reasonable discussion than your opponents.
The terrorists main complaints seem to be our support of Isreal and trespassing on Islamic soil. If hypothetically we did remove our presence would they still have things to complain about? True, but unfortunately yes. There will always be a new complaint about a new superpower to address. Some groups will certainly not be satisfied until they dominate the world.
1. Beer and guts, I believe, is spamming, by posting that long ass text three times on this thread alone.
2. While Osama calls for many things in the text, look at the only three places where he threatens violent consequences: . . .
They want their ideological victory? Let them have it. I prefer living americans over dead americans and muslims. Agreed on the first point, mostly because he simply continues to restate "WAKE UP" afterwards, and does not actually add anything to his arguments. On number two, I agree that it is the most threatening part of the text, but it is not the most frightening. Advocating the worldwide acceptance of Islam or facing death is a much more frightening, if not realistic, threat. I agree whole-heartedly with your last statement.

The Eagle of Darkness also brings up many noteworthy points.
Terrorist attacks would be more prevelant, and their societies would close to the outside world in fear. If this is problem for all nations of the world, then shouldn't all nations be participating to find a solution? The USA need not force itself into troubles that could be avoided by diplomacy and reason.
Ummm lets see .....wow all the shit they do ...ummm the ORDINARY fuckers you claim that they are...what they do...its not on my list... What the fuck are you that this behavior is ordinary? We may have just an ever so slight misunderstanding here. I believe The Eagle of Darkness was saying that most people who commit acts of terror came from ordinary upbringings, with normal families and desires. They have values, dreams, and try to live a normal life, but for some reason or another, choose to become terrorists. They may feel that the USA has wronged them in some way and wish to justify this, or seek revenge for past policy. Whatever the reason, these people are out to set things right. If the USA listened to their demands, or actually followed through on its promises, a lot of mistrust and hatred could be prevented. The Eagle of Darkness was not saying that terrorism is an ordinary or morally correct action.

Beer and Guns, you provide a good scenario, only this, "The Arab leaders all declar Jihad on Isarel." would happen much sooner, and this, "The Arab world vows to remove the Israeli from the Earth. And the wars go on for years- decades." is already in progress. :p
although under attack and on the run , with the best army in the world and the powerfull military forces on earth trying to catch and kill them...they attacked Spain and London and continue to attack in Iraq. By what dream or delusion do you see leaving the middle East stripping the terrorist of anything? You give this as support that our current tactics are effective? Leaving the Middle East will not put an end to hatred or disputes. It will not prevent terrorist attacks from occurring around the world, but it would set us apart from our image as a world dictator. I would say that most terrorist forces would be content with our withdrawal from their cities and neighboring countries. Some may not be satisfied until we are completely under their rule, but most do not hate us as individuals, they hate what we stand for, even if it has been twisted to obscurity. Showing no signs at a willingness to cooperate will only push terrorists to more desperate measures, which will be countered by increasing the aggressiveness of USA military forces. It’s an endless escalation of violence. Does it really need to be this way?
If you want to win you find the enemy and destroy him. Not necessarily. Even in instances of total war, the goal is to disarm the enemy. The best way to do this is to put him in a situation more oppressive then your goals are. Of course, you must also make sure that the enemies will to fight is also discouraged as much as possible, so that disarmament is the best possible option for your enemy.
You are arguing appeasment if you declare that the US should remove its troops from the middle east. A victory for one side does not always mean a defeat for the other.
THERE WOULD NEVER HAD BEEN A WORLD WAR TWO IF NOT FOR APPEASMENT Actually, WWII could have been avoided by not issuing such an oppressive revenge as the Treaty of Versailles. Not appeasing Hitler could have prevented the deaths of many more citizens by starting the war sooner, but it would not have halted Hitler’s ambitions or the fighting that still ensued. Japan would have still invaded China, and the USA would likely be involved eventually.
A good war plan will include both offense and defensive measures and a good understanding of what the enemy can do . Terrorist organizations are by nature small and compartmentalised. When you look at the scope of the potential " talent ' pool for terrorist you should realise that only by changing attitudes and conditions will you limit the manpower..they need a reason to live ...they can always find a reason to die. This is by far the most enlightening thing you have said thus far!

What I'm suggesting is not appeasement, seeing as this word has become synonymous with "surrender". I say we actually listen to what the terrorists have to say, see if it's a reasonable goal, and follow through to achieve the outcome. I'm sure at this point that Beer and Guns will restate how Osama wishes for nothing more than an Islamist-controlled world, and it's painfully obvious that no one will support this goal. However, if the USA would negotiate instead of fighting at the drop of a hat, we could avoid a lot of bloodshed. The reality is, there were far less terrorist recruits before the invasion of Iraq than there are now. The solution, pull out of Iraq, but not before setting up a stable government. The people's wish to self-rule needs to be instituted before we pump out all of the oil ;) . Israel will not cower and the world will not crumble because the overbearing presence of the USA is withdrawn. The majority of the Arab world will not say, "Hey, it's fun being a terrorist, let's start some more trouble." When a conflict in a region ends, the survivors claim the battlefield to rebuild and repair what has been lost, they do not pick up and move with the conflict. Unless the terrorist group is advocating a total war against the USA and its allies, it will not follow the yellow brick road all over the world to gain dominance. Most of the insurgents in Iraq are local recruits, who had no grand schemes for dying before they were turned from a moderate to radical stance by the incursion of USA military forces. What I’m suggesting is cooperation, in the understanding that there is no need for extermination. Is this dream to idealistic? Perhaps, but it’s not worth abandoning. Well, so much for moderation...

Mekonia

25-09-2005, 19:03

I would be curious to find out what would happen to all the terrorists if the United States pulled out all of its troops from all Muslim countries. Not just Iraq but every single one anywhere in the world. If we did this, how would it effect terrorism? It seems that much of the complaining done by terrorists is that we are on Muslim soil where we have no right being. Along with this we would cut off all military aid to Isreal. Of course doing these things would have other consequences also but that is a different issue. I was just wondering if these radical actions would have any effect whatsoever on the terrorist danger. Terrorists could either glee over our withdraw and strike harder or perhaps feel satisfied we are not on their soil and propping up a Jewish state. What do you all think?

I think if America went into Islamic Isolation places such as Iraq would go into chaos. Regardless of your belief over the morality of the war, america is there now and they have made their bed. Terrorism would still happen, someother group would form and it would be an endless cycle. It might stop attacks on US all one of them, but terrorism was there before 9/11 and it will always remain. Someone somewhere is always feeling slighted against.

Beer and Guns

25-09-2005, 20:30

I replied to all 10 pages of posts at once... enjoy!

From reading your responses I see you take what is normally called a simplistic left wing view of the world .

Without a common enemy to unite them, the terrorist groups would likely split off into competing factions. As has happened in Africa, the lack of a strong government authority will lead to warlords fighting to gain power.
Either that, or America is the devil.
Lets point out the first obviouse thing that comes to mind..." what government " ?
And you base your claim they would split up on what ? I think you need to brush up on your understanding of the diverse terrorist groups and what they have in common . You are assuming that the United States would not still be their enemy . By leaving the middle East the conditions that spawn and create the climate for terrorism would still exist. You did not reflect at all on the tremendouse boost to moral and prestige that would occur after America was sent packing. By satisfying the demands of the terrorist the United States would encourage and embolded terrorism throughout the world. You cannot overlook this...yet you claim they would splinter instead of Unite towards a common goal . Israel would still be in the Middle East . They would start there dont you think ?

How about America stops sending weapons to all foreign aggressors?
Although removing all American military forces from major-Islamic countries will not by any means solve the problem of terrorism, it would be a huge first step.

You first assume the Uninted States sends weapons to all foriegn aggressors , since this statement is false on its face a response isnt needed is it ? You assume they do not think all of the Islamic countries are " major "
what minor country gets to keep their Americans ?

Removal of all non-Islamic interference and threats from the eastern hemisphere. The right to run their own countries as they see fit without any outside intervention.

Why what gives them the right except the fact that they proclaim it ? Are you saying that the " people " support the terrorist to the point that they want to make them their leaders in a new government ? You are implying that the Terrorist have the " right " to violence in overthrowing the goverments of the Middle East that they see fit to overthrow . You are saying they are the legitimate voice of the people ? By what right should the United States be prevented from its interaction with Egypt ? With Turkey ? With Jordan ? With Lebenon ? With Syria ? With Libia ? With Iran ? With Saudi Arabia ? With Kuwait ? With Yemen ? With ant country on earth ? What legitimate right do the terrorist have to limit or proscribe the relations betwen the United States and any other country on the planet ? Did the rerrorist win by force of arms ? Did the terrorist besides by proclamation and terrorist acts become a legitimate and representitive government for anyone ? What right ?

Is the USA willing to pay any price to keep up its ego as an invincible superpower? What of Vietnam, or Somalia? The USA has lost wars before, and is still going strong.

You assume its about ego . You have no clue about free trade or the rights of nations to diplomacy . You are calling Somalia a war ? ..you have no clue what a war is . You discount the idea that WW2 and other conflicts tend to break out between nations and competing ideoligys . You discount the entire history of conflict throughout the recorded history of the world . And you boil it down to ego . Your on a roll :rolleyes:

You are under the false impression that this is the first time in history when any nation has had to deal with terrorism. Terrorism is not some new, unconventional style of warfare, it has existed for many hundreds of years.

Am I now ? :D If you ever care to discuss the history of terrorism I would be happy to teach you a few things .

Your problem is believing that anyone is rational.

I am posting in this forum . If I ever thought that anyone was rational the idea has long since been disabused .
Why? The USA does not need to act as the global police force, but it does not need to hide from the world either.
The UN should act as a police force ideally but in reallity the United States being the super power gets the brunt .

I hope that was sarcasm... After reading your next post, I can't remember a worse case of paranoid allegations.
Idont know the next post you reffered to . Could it be claiming the fanatical muslims woild kill each and every man women and child of Isreal if they could ? If the United states withdrew support who would stop them from trying ? do you assume Israel would not use its nucular weapons to protect itself if the United States withdrew support ? What would be the results of a nucular war in the Middle East ? You cant advocate changing the dynamics of the middle east without taking into account the consequences .
Excuse me it seems you can because you did !
It wasnt sarcasm . Track terrorist down and kill them is the goal . Dead terrorist are no longer a threat .

Thank you for making that destinction, I was worried that the words terrorist and Muslim were being interchanged.

Yeah, because that's not anything like what we're fighting against. :confused:

Yeah , because that is nothing like what we are fighting against .

[From the article provided by Beer and Guns]
"(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.
(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.
(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting (Israel) because this will result in more disasters for you."

Wow, that was very unexpected and irrational. You're right Beer and Guns, the USA would be a total waste if we listened to this... (Haha, sarcasm)

Nice way to put things in context there sport...what the rest of the demmands do not count ? By what right do the terrorist make these demands ? Who do they represent ? And why are they suddenly legitamate ?

A reformation from within Islam would greatly help. However, this is unlikely to be initiated while they are united against a common enemy. Remember, it took over 1,500 years to reform Christianity, then consider Islam was not founded until around 500 years after Christianity started, so we could have awhile to wait. About the Renaissance, it was actually the Crusades and re-opening of Mediterranean trade with the Middle East that planted the seeds for the European Renaissance, but that's another story.

Your an Islamic scholar now I see ? Islam is among the most enlitened religions on the planet . a few wack jobs doesnt change things all religions have extreme factions and they are all wack jobs .

Unless evidence of his death is presented, we can only continue to assume that he is alive and operating. Even if he is not conducting terrorist missions, his image and the loyalty he exudes still continues to exist.

And yet you claim he and his organisation would splinter ....
Or until two peoples learn to coexist, that they are valuable to each others' survival, and not a threat.

And while we are waiting its ok for them to wipe each other off the planet.
The reality of the situation is if you leave them alone to sort things out they will ..but there will be no Middle East left when they are done . Just a big smoking hole with bodies in it . WAKE UP look around and pay attention .

This doesn't quite make sense. These people do not commit suicide because it's fun. They have a political agenda. If all American military forces left, and they were pleased with the new government, the terrorist groups would probably get back to their jobs and families. They would disperse because there would be nothing to fight against. Of course, the more dedicated of the bunch might head to Israel or even the USA, but this is not preventable by occupying a foreign nation.

If - is a big word . Of course, the more dedicated of the bunch might head to Israel or even the USA, but this is not preventable by occupying a foreign nation.

No its preventable by tracking down the terrorist and killing them before they can attack you . And by removing any government that would support them or give them shelter and replacing it with on ethat wont. Its prevented by removing the economic and political conditions that breed terrorist . Occupation is a side effect of policy to create democratic government after an invasion to remove a despotic ruler .

A terrorist group with a purely religious agenda may have this in mind, but again, this cannot be resolved by occupying their country. We must show our willingness to cooperate at living together, rather than oppressing their views.

While we are waiting for this living together stuff to take hold we need to prevent those that are not interested in living with us by any stretch of the imagination from killing us . Sing Kumbaya !

Aggretia, I just wanted to thank you for your well thought-out post. I agree with your views.
Odd, Aggretia never mentioned supporting a nuclear holocaust. There is a difference between supporting a nuclear war and supporting national sovereignty and the right to self-rule. Your personal attacks against other members are becoming quite offensive and say more about your inability to join in a reasonable discussion than your opponents.

A nucular holocaust is what will result when you suspend reallity and do stupid things and make stupid decisions .

True, but unfortunately yes. There will always be a new complaint about a new superpower to address. Some groups will certainly not be satisfied until they dominate the world.

And thats another reason why you have to identify them then track them down and kill them . They can dominate hell .

Agreed on the first point, mostly because he simply continues to restate "WAKE UP" afterwards, and does not actually add anything to his arguments. On number two, I agree that it is the most threatening part of the text, but it is not the most frightening. Advocating the worldwide acceptance of Islam or facing death is a much more frightening, if not realistic, threat. I agree whole-heartedly with your last statement.

Posting fatwa's by bin -laden and repeating terrorist threats and demands as spam ? I can accept that :D

The Eagle of Darkness also brings up many noteworthy points.
If this is problem for all nations of the world, then shouldn't all nations be participating to find a solution? The USA need not force itself into troubles that could be avoided by diplomacy and reason.

Just the ones that cant be resolved by diplomacy and reason . At any rate you are assuming people have reason and are rational . Saddan as rational ....please...thats a laugh.. :eek: he attacked Iran and Kuwait thinking he could get away with it...thats very rational .. :D How about his diplomacy ! :D Reality check for you bub .

We may have just an ever so slight misunderstanding here. I believe The Eagle of Darkness was saying that most people who commit acts of terror came from ordinary upbringings, with normal families and desires. They have values, dreams, and try to live a normal life, but for some reason or another, choose to become terrorists. They may feel that the USA has wronged them in some way and wish to justify this, or seek revenge for past policy. Whatever the reason, these people are out to set things right. If the USA listened to their demands, or actually followed through on its promises, a lot of mistrust and hatred could be prevented. The Eagle of Darkness was not saying that terrorism is an ordinary or morally correct action.

He typed what he typed . If he did not intend what he said he should say so . He wrote it . He should know what he intended better than anyone .

Beer and Guns, you provide a good scenario, only this, "The Arab leaders all declar Jihad on Isarel." would happen much sooner, and this, "The Arab world vows to remove the Israeli from the Earth. And the wars go on for years- decades." is already in progress. :p

So then you aggree that the United States should not withdraw its support from Israel and leave the Middle East .

You give this as support that our current tactics are effective? Leaving the Middle East will not put an end to hatred or disputes. It will not prevent terrorist attacks from occurring around the world, but it would set us apart from our image as a world dictator. I would say that most terrorist forces would be content with our withdrawal from their cities and neighboring countries. Some may not be satisfied until we are completely under their rule, but most do not hate us as individuals, they hate what we stand for, even if it has been twisted to obscurity. Showing no signs at a willingness to cooperate will only push terrorists to more desperate measures, which will be countered by increasing the aggressiveness of USA military forces. It’s an endless escalation of violence. Does it really need to be this way?
Not necessarily. Even in instances of total war, the goal is to disarm the enemy. The best way to do this is to put him in a situation more oppressive then your goals are. Of course, you must also make sure that the enemies will to fight is also discouraged as much as possible, so that disarmament is the best possible option for your enemy.

You really need a reality check .

A victory for one side does not always mean a defeat for the other.

sure it doesnt......

Actually, WWII could have been avoided by not issuing such an oppressive revenge as the Treaty of Versailles.

Maybe ..but it did exist ..thats reality..it could have also been renegotiated or Hitler could have had a car accident .
Not appeasing Hitler could have prevented the deaths of many more citizens by starting the war sooner, but it would not have halted Hitler’s ambitions or the fighting that still ensued. Japan would have still invaded China, and the USA would likely be involved eventually.

But what we know as World War two would NOT have happened . A hundred million citizens would have died in some other way .

This is by far the most enlightening thing you have said thus far!

Common ground keeps you from drowning sometimes .

What I'm suggesting is not appeasement, seeing as this word has become synonymous with "surrender". I say we actually listen to what the terrorists have to say, see if it's a reasonable goal, and follow through to achieve the outcome. I'm sure at this point that Beer and Guns will restate how Osama wishes for nothing more than an Islamist-controlled world, and it's painfully obvious that no one will support this goal. However, if the USA would negotiate instead of fighting at the drop of a hat, we could avoid a lot of bloodshed. The reality is, there were far less terrorist recruits before the invasion of Iraq than there are now. The solution, pull out of Iraq, but not before setting up a stable government. The people's wish to self-rule needs to be instituted before we pump out all of the oil ;) . Israel will not cower and the world will not crumble because the overbearing presence of the USA is withdrawn. The majority of the Arab world will not say, "Hey, it's fun being a terrorist, let's start some more trouble." When a conflict in a region ends, the survivors claim the battlefield to rebuild and repair what has been lost, they do not pick up and move with the conflict. Unless the terrorist group is advocating a total war against the USA and its allies, it will not follow the yellow brick road all over the world to gain dominance. Most of the insurgents in Iraq are local recruits, who had no grand schemes for dying before they were turned from a moderate to radical stance by the incursion of USA military forces. What I’m suggesting is cooperation, in the understanding that there is no need for extermination. Is this dream to idealistic? Perhaps, but it’s not worth abandoning. Well, so much for moderation...

Identify the threat , track it down and kill it . You give us no alternative but to fight or surrender and surrender is not an option . Make peace with your God or Gods . We will find you .
Thats more a likely responce to terror from any nation thats wishes to remain a nation . Unless of course you can explain how making a proclamation and blowing people, and things up makes you anything but a criminal and a terrorist. Prove your legitimate . Sit down and negotiate with us in good faith and we will listen to your demands. Attack our country and our interest around the world . kill our people and threaten and declare war on our society and we will hunt you to the ends of the earth and destroy you .
War is politics by another method .

No better friend and no worse enemy .

NationStates Jolt Archive

Would this effect terrorism?