NationStates Jolt Archive

In a philosophy class we've discussed about what is real? and haven't come up with any conclusive answers. We're needing more ideas to have justfiable arguments against each other, so what do you think is real?

Why does it matter?

I think the first question of philosophy should not be "is it real?" but "is it right?"

Morality is more important than reality.

In a philosophy class we've discussed about what is real? and haven't come up with any conclusive answers. We're needing more ideas to have justfiable arguments against each other, so what do you think is real?

Have you talked about the principle of credulity?

reality is fake. existance is nonexistance.

All your fears. (http://www.exitmundi.nl/Dreamsend.htm)

Reality is truth. What is true is right, what is right is true. That which is wrong is a perversion of the truth.

How do you define "alive"? If you come up with an answer, call up Modern Science and tell them please.

In a philosophy class we've discussed about what is real? and haven't come up with any conclusive answers. We're needing more ideas to have justfiable arguments against each other, so what do you think is real?

Good to see someone else in a philosophy program.

The short answer is that what is real is what actually exists in an external world independent of our mental projection of what the world appears to be. This is basically the conclusion Descartes in a more primitive form and later Kant comes to, if you're looking for a reference.

Now, it still may be the case that there is nothing real independent of our minds. It may even be the case, if you want to take Berkeley's suggestion seriously (which I don't, but the reason is a bit complicated), that there is no self or mind to process raw experience itself. But in a larger sense, none of that matters. You asked for a definition of what real is, not whether or not there is such a thing as reality.

Reality is truth. What is true is right, what is right is true. That which is wrong is a perversion of the truth.Since this is meaningless nonsense, I'll respond in kind, manage to contradict you, and back it up with an explanation.

"Everything is False- All is permissable."
-Hassan i Sabbah

Living with a paranoid delusional teaches you the truth of this- the reality of several hundred people physically there at the time does nothing but piss off my mother, and since we're obviously all against her, she's allowed to do anything at all to get back at us for it- and then pretend it never happened.

And, since she's The Authority, anyone who wasn't physically there at the time will believe her version of everything. Therefore, it becomes their reality, too. Until it becomes convenient for her to believe something else a little bit down the road.


This is how any Authority will operate- government, media, religion or parents. "Justice is merely a common noun, vaguely denoting an ethical idea of conduct proper to the circumstances, whether of individuals or communities. It is, you observe, just a grammarian's notion." A note as to how this works- "At the death of Adrian the Fifth, Pedro Juliani, who should be named John the Twentieth, was through an error in the reckoning elevated to the papal chair as John the Twenty-first."

In a philosophy class we've discussed about what is real? and haven't come up with any conclusive answers. We're needing more ideas to have justfiable arguments against each other, so what do you think is real?

Nothing is real. That is what I want to say, but that doesn't quite express the right meaning. Maybe a better way to put it is to say that the true entity of all phenomena is emptiness. Reality itself is not built out of objects, but rather the relationships between objects. When one looks more closely, the objects themselves are built out of relationships until one realizes that there is nothing but the relationships between things that make up reality. Relationships are not matter or energy, and can't be said to exist or not exist.

Ok, so you want to find what is real? Try this: eliminate everything you can see, hear, touch, taste, smell and think of. What's left over is what is real.

reality is fake. existance is nonexistance.
There's logic for ya.

"Everything is False- All is permissable."
-Hassan i Sabbah

Who was this guy? Was he a member of the Assassins?

Who was this guy? Was he a member of the Assassins?Yup. Birth name of Hashshashim, the Sufi mystic who started 'em. I used it because it's a lot easier to spell.

(Edit: Actually, his birth name's Hassan Bin Ali Bin Muhammad Bin Ja'fr Bin Hussain Bin Muhammad al Sabbah al Hameeri, but I had to look that up because I doubt even he could remember or spell that off the cuff.)

Yup. Birth name of Hashshashin, the Sufi mystic who started 'em. I used it because it's a lot easier to spell.

Nietzsche loved this guy (and the assassins) Stupid Nietzsche misquoted him, however. Still, the spirit is the same. An admirable group.

Good to see someone else in a philosophy program.

The short answer is that what is real is what actually exists in an external world independent of our mental projection of what the world appears to be. This is basically the conclusion Descartes in a more primitive form and later Kant comes to, if you're looking for a reference.
I agree, reality is what is actualized.

"The real is the rational, the rational is the real"
-Hegel

I don't know, what about dreams? Are they not real dreams? Can dreams, can thoughts exist if you define reality as being what exists beyond the individual?

"Cogito, ergo sum"

What is the self? How can I define myself? What is thought? How do you know your are the one thinking? How do you know you are consistent?

*sigh* so complicated

Nietzsche loved this guy (and the assassins) Stupid Nietzsche misquoted him, however. Still, the spirit is the same. An admirable group.Well, considering it went through at least three languages, I'd say keeping the spirit is pretty good. And since I doubt Nietzsche spoke Ancient Arabic or Farsi (And neither did Robert Shea, my source), you can pretty safely add French and/or Latin to the mix.

One thing to say:
reality is fake, NS is real.

reality is fake. existance is nonexistance.

Maybe this was deliberate, but you have just made two huge self contradictions.

How do you know your are the one thinking?
That is a really interesting thingymajig I think I think I think I think I think I think ... oh, who cares.

In other words, I think that think that, I think, but I'm not sure, I think. I think.

All your fears. (http://www.exitmundi.nl/Dreamsend.htm)
WOA!! That seriously twist your brain!

In a philosophy class we've discussed about what is real? and haven't come up with any conclusive answers. We're needing more ideas to have justfiable arguments against each other, so what do you think is real?It would be easier to define if we knew what it was being compared to or in what context it was...

It would be easier to define if we knew what it was being compared to or in what context it was...

I don't think reality can be compared to anything else, it's not relative (I don't think) what is real is all of existence, and existence cannot be compared to nothingness becasue nothingness... does not exist!

But context, yes. What is the timeframe maybe?

I don't think reality can be compared to anything else, it's not relative (I don't think) what is real is all of existence, and existence cannot be compared to nothingness becasue nothingness... does not exist!

But context, yes. What is the timeframe maybe?Well, it's possible to compare it to nothingness and thereby define it as the opposite. And you could also compare it to falsehood, in which case the meaning would be completely different.

The British cosmologist Fred Hoyle was the first to realise this is no coincidence. A very peculiar thing about the fundamental constants is that they appear to have exactly the right values. If they were slightly smaller or bigger, atoms, stars, planets and people simply wouldn’t exist!

From that link

The answer to this is not to think "It's a miracle we're here!"

If the universe did not "turn out" the way it did, we would be unable to observe it, and say "It is a miracle we're here!"

I don't think reality can be compared to anything else, it's not relative (I don't think) what is real is all of existence, and existence cannot be compared to nothingness becasue nothingness... does not exist!

But context, yes. What is the timeframe maybe?

Not accurate. 'Nothingness' is a totally different concept than 'absolute nonexistence'.

'Nothingness' is defined as a state of perfectly uniform static equilibrium constituting relative nonexistence. A state that exists relative to absolute nonexistence but does not exist relative to temporal existence. Absolute nonexistence is defined as the absence of existence, the absence of nothingness, and the absence of absence. It is what is not being referred-to under any circumstances. Its definition is that which cannot be referred-to, named, or defined. It is the non-state to which everything including nothingness is attracted.

Nothing is real.

In a philosophy class we've discussed about what is real? and haven't come up with any conclusive answers. We're needing more ideas to have justfiable arguments against each other, so what do you think is real?

"Reality is that which, when you disbelieve in it, does NOT go away!" - Phillip K. Dick

Mind you, I suspect that there are some elements of reality not covered by that since anyone can keep those things that only affect their personal lives marginally or not all at arm's length if they are determined but at base there's a lot to be said for good old pragmatism. :)

In a philosophy class we've discussed about what is real? and haven't come up with any conclusive answers. We're needing more ideas to have justfiable arguments against each other, so what do you think is real?

Imagine me hitting you over the head with a 2 by 4. Any blood? No? That's not real.

Now, let's stop imagining for a second.

*Thwacks NYCT over the head with a 2 by 4 as hard as he can*

Now, do you see all the blood? THAT'S real.



It's pretty simple. Let's try another one. Imagine me setting you on fire. Does it hurt? No? That's not real.

Now, let's stop imagining for a second.

*Pours petrol all over NYCT and then tosses a match at him*

Now, do you feel the agonising sensation of your flesh being burned to a crisp? THAT'S real.

As I said it's pre... aw, no, I don't want to go back! NO! NOT THE DRUGS!

*Is dragged away by two burly men in white lab coats*

Imagine me hitting you over the head with a 2 by 4. Any blood? No? That's not real.

Now, let's stop imagining for a second.

*Thwacks NYCT over the head with a 2 by 4 as hard as he can*

Now, do you see all the blood? THAT'S real. No, it's fake, because you're making this up- I refuse to believe it happened as you typed it, therefore it will never be actually real to me.

Real is what you make it. Or, at least, what you've been taught to make it.

Oh, and before anyone says it: There is, actually, a spoon. I used it to eat ice cream.

Real is what you make it. Or, at least, what you've been taught to make it.

Oh, and before anyone says it: There is, actually, a spoon. I used it to eat ice cream.

But was the ice-cream real? ;)

But was the ice-cream real? ;)

Damn well better be or I'm gonna get my money back.

Damn well better be or I'm gonna get my money back.


They won't use real cream or if it was chocolate - real cocoa........ but your mind makes it real :rolleyes:

They won't use real cream or if it was chocolate - real cocoa........ but your mind makes it real :rolleyes:

Not really ... cuz I can read a label.

I'd never buy ice cream that didn't use real cream.

Anyway, I get a strong feeling that I'm way, way too pragmatic for this conversation.

Not really ... cuz I can read a label.

I'd never buy ice cream that didn't use real cream.

Anyway, I get a strong feeling that I'm way, way too pragmatic for this conversation.

Possibly..... considering I don't believe that what's on a label is necessarily in the container. Take Sunny-D for example, I know for sure that nothing in that is real.

Possibly..... considering I don't believe that what's on a label is necessarily in the container. Take Sunny-D for example, I know for sure that nothing in that is real.

Well then you have to prove it and report it. We have laws concerning such things, after all.

Everybody has their own reality. You cannot enfore your definition of reality upon someone else.

Everybody has their own reality. You cannot enfore your definition of reality upon someone else.

Those two sentences contradict each other. An absolute following an opposing absolute. I'm reasonably sure something in my head just popped.

Those two sentences contradict each other. An absolute following an opposing absolute. I'm reasonably sure something in my head just popped.
Thats being the point. ;D

Thats being tbhe point. ;D

Great .... your point was to pop something in my head ... I knew I should have gone to bed. I might have needed that braincell! Damn you! Damn you all!

*hides*

Damn well better be or I'm gonna get my money back.Now what if your money wasn't real either? :p

Great .... your point was to pop something in my head ... I knew I should have gone to bed. I might have needed that braincell! Damn you! Damn you all!

Do you mind much I don't get damned?

Possibly..... considering I don't believe that what's on a label is necessarily in the container. Take Sunny-D for example, I know for sure that nothing in that is real.
What sort of real? Do you mean real orange or non-existent? I assume the former. And how do you know the label's real?? :confused:

Great .... your point was to pop something in my head ... I knew I should have gone to bed. I might have needed that braincell! Damn you! Damn you all!

Hmmm... maybe I should start up a charity/foundation for lost braincells. Then the world would be a better place.

Now what if your money wasn't real either?

Money isn't real. Money never takes any form in reality and can only exist in a metaphysical form. Currency is not money but merely reprsents it and is the physical manifestation of money when it isn't having it's "value" assigned to some other inanimate object.

But money is never real, that's why it doesn't matter if we keep borrowing more money because it comes from nowhere. Probably why techinically the whole world seems to be in debt of some sort.

Reality is, by most definitions I know, something highly subjective.

"That which is." Well, what is? There's a keyboard in front of me, but I'm the only authority I can trust in verifying that it's really here. In comes Bob and tells me "yeah, it's a keyboard". Now, does he just agree with me because he doesn't know better, is it 'really' there, is HE really there?

None of those 3 questions I can answer with certainty. I can go ahead and touch him to verify that he's there. Again, a subjective test. I, and not some objective, verifyable source, touched him and told myself that he's there.

So he is real for me. Whether he is for 'the world', I don't know. I don't even have an objective verification that 'the world' is real.

We here have experience with virtual worlds. People play games, they spend time in chatrooms, where 'real' people are there, but we of course know that they're not really there because, well, we know we're using chat programs. Now imagine going into the future a few years or decades, and let's imagine full virtual reality chatrooms, where you can actually see people's avatars in 'real life' quality. Let's furthermore imagine you don't know you're using a VR environment, and finally let's assume you don't know any other means of communications.

Would it be 'real'?

It's real. For you. Whether something is real is a rather subjective thing. You, and only you, can decide for yourself if it's real. When a hammer falls on your toe, you, and only you, feel the pain. I can't verify whether that hammer really hit you or not.

From that link

The answer to this is not to think "It's a miracle we're here!"

If the universe did not "turn out" the way it did, we would be unable to observe it, and say "It is a miracle we're here!"

Yeah - literally a miracle. As in, the creator of the Sims game is a God? But then, where would God be? Everywhere? But then, that's everywhere in this universe, which might not be real... but it makes ssense tht he knows everything.

more comments please.