NationStates Jolt Archive

this applies to europian and american countries
I relised that im born into a system and am not essentualy free, especialy if i have to pay tax on things i worked for etc.
you may have freedom of speech to, but if your news is censored by your state then your the victim of propaganda rite?
if a government can stomp on your freedoms to protect you then surely you werent free to have them not stomped on when you want rite? its confusing but do you think your realy free? i like it when the system looks after you too, but then your not free of it.which is why theres a yes and no answer and nothing inbetween, you know what im getting at, i know were not free too walk into our neighbors house an shit in his bed but thats just common sense,so are we free? :confused: should we be free99%? (if thats possible) please state your nationality on your reply so we can see where your coming from and see if you can actualy define free too, i tried here an got confused

this applies to europian and american countries
I relised that im born into a system and am not essentualy free, especialy if i have to pay tax on things i worked for etc.
you may have freedom of speech to, but if your news is censored by your state then your the victim of propaganda rite?
if a government can stomp on your freedoms to protect you then surely you werent free to have them not stomped on when you want rite? its confusing but do you think your realy free? i like it when the system looks after you too, but then your not free of it.which is why theres a yes and no answer and nothing inbetween, you know what im getting at, i know were not free too walk into our neighbors house an shit in his bed but thats just common sense,so are we free? :confused: should we be free99%? (if thats possible) please state your nationality on your reply so we can see where your coming from and see if you can actualy define free too, i tried here an got confused

The fact that you are taxed has nothing at all to do with how free you are. Taxation simply allows the government access to resources. They might use those resources to restrict your freedom, or expand it, but in and of itself, taxation is not a limitation on freedom, merely a precondition for living in the social compact.

Why is this thread posted three times?

Why is this thread posted three times?

It certainly gives an interesting new perspective on his post count.

Why is this thread posted three times?
Oops sry

The fact that you are taxed has nothing at all to do with how free you are. Taxation simply allows the government access to resources. They might use those resources to restrict your freedom, or expand it, but in and of itself, taxation is not a limitation on freedom, merely a precondition for living in the social compact.
so i dont have to pay tax if i dont want the goverment to look after me...cage me if im bad etc, if i pay tax then i have to work to do it then im forced to be part of the system

The fact that you are taxed has nothing at all to do with how free you are. Taxation simply allows the government access to resources. They might use those resources to restrict your freedom, or expand it, but in and of itself, taxation is not a limitation on freedom, merely a precondition for living in the social compact.
Is that a 2-door compact, and does it come with a sunroof?

Why is this thread posted three times?
It's a way to express freedom. SHe is free to post as many times as he wants.
...until the evil system catches up with him/her and s/he gets deleted :p

It's a way to express freedom. SHe is free to post as many times as he wants.
...until the evil system catches up with him/her and s/he gets deleted :p

I suppose the mods will stumble upon this and react with horror! :eek:

I'm free... and freedom tastes of reality.

We are pretty much free, but at some point individual freedom meets the reality and pracitcality of living in a modern society. You could renounce said society if you wanted to, but most people don't want to.

I am free.

My body may be imprisioned, my voice, perhaps, silenced, but my mind is free, so I am free.

Everything else is just politics.

I suppose the mods will stumble upon this and react with horror! :eek:
THE MODS HATE ME *SNIFFLE* :(

The fact that you are taxed has nothing at all to do with how free you are. Taxation simply allows the government access to resources. They might use those resources to restrict your freedom, or expand it, but in and of itself, taxation is not a limitation on freedom, merely a precondition for living in the social compact.

i beg to differ in that if your tax dollars are not used by the government to serve YOU, then you lose financial freedom.

and even if services are rendered, with your money, for your benefit, you are still FORCED to pay them... so it is the government saying, "Give me some of your money."

(this is not a rant agtainst taxes, per se, only an argument that taxation infringes on total financial freedom. of course, we need some taxation. for instance, i don't know how to build/maintain roads by myself... I can't defend myself from terrorists/those who would harm the country... i need my government to do those things, among others, for me)

for instance, i don't know how to build/maintain roads by myself... I can't defend myself from terrorists/those who would harm the country..
you can't? well what are you a professional professional for then?

i truely dislike how the word freedom is thrown around for odd meanings by selfish people such as most of yourselves. the individual is not who that matters, only the whole does!

oh, and: did anybody have a stab at this "defining freedom" thing yet?

to answer the poll question... we are pretty free here in the US, within the framework of state, local and federal laws designed to protect us from criminals (and to keep us from becoming criminals... so I guess one could say that we're not free to become criminals without pain of punishment).

But we're free to say whatever we want, so long as we do not libel/slander others or (I guess) totally shout in someone's ear and either physically or mentally injure them.

We're free to live where we want to, to take jobs as we wish (as they are offered to us, of course, or those which we create for ourselves)

We're free to start businesses (tied to the item above)

We're free to sue (though if it's frivolous, it'll get thrown out... and medical tort reform might make sense to help keep medical costs down)

We're free to drive pretty much wherever we want to, unless we've broken some law and as punishment are confined

we're free to worship as we wish (or to not worship) -- there's no state police around to usher people out of their homes on Sunday to herd us to church(-es)

etc.

yes, we are free

if you're a criminal, and are caught and convicted, you will lose some of those freedoms

if you're a terrorist, you're not free to work your horror

etc.

but for those of us who are basically law-abiding citizens, we're (fairly) free.

We won't be free until capitalism has been overthrown.

i beg to differ in that if your tax dollars are not used by the government to serve YOU, then you lose financial freedom.

and even if services are rendered, with your money, for your benefit, you are still FORCED to pay them... so it is the government saying, "Give me some of your money."

(this is not a rant agtainst taxes, per se, only an argument that taxation infringes on total financial freedom. of course, we need some taxation. for instance, i don't know how to build/maintain roads by myself... I can't defend myself from terrorists/those who would harm the country... i need my government to do those things, among others, for me)

It may not have occured to you yet, but you are free to leave anytime you want...
Governments are nothing else but social structures blown up to accomodate the number of individuals depending on them. Imagine for a second you lived in a small, independant rural community. You make a living, and everything that concerns the community is decided through an electoral process. The village wants to build a road, so everybody has to give money for the project. The village wants to provide for its older people, and everybody has to give money.
The thing with governments is, they have become so large that the average citizen no longer recognises what is being done with the money he pays into the community.
Ever drove down a road? Ever went to school? Ever used a library? Ever felt safer because you knew that there was a policeman around? Ever had your trash collected? Or do you think you're entitled to all that without paying a penny?

True freedom will never exist because we have to give up some freedoms to protect others.

Freedom is Slavery.

True freedom will never exist because we have to give up some freedoms to protect others.

Freedom is Slavery.

To think this thought through... we need to give up freedoms to protect ourselves, and to simply exist.

In seriousness, I really would wish that the government would lay off the nanny state thoughts a bit. I am an adult, you see!
I can manage to determine what is safe for me to do and what isn't.
I can learn the proper way to handle a weapon and use it responsibly.
I can get on without some daft idiot looking over my shoulder, and being sure that I don't use any mean, nasty drugs.

Ever drove down a road?
No, I'm too busy paying taxes to get a car, so I walk.
Ever went to school?
Private University at the moment, old chap.
Ever used a library?
Also funded by the University.
Ever felt safer because you knew that there was a policeman around?
No, the popo ain't done nuthin' for me!
In seriousness, I'd prefer to have the money and freedom to equip/train myself for my own defense.
Ever had your trash collected?
At the moment, I suppose that this is provided by the government, but back at my parent's house we had to go to the dump.

Now then, a counter argument provided by our Mr Humphries:
"I'm free, Captain Peacock!"
Or perhaps I am the only person here who thought of that the first time they saw the thread title.

Yes, I am free.

I am free because I say so.

It may not have occured to you yet, but you are free to leave anytime you want...
Governments are nothing else but social structures blown up to accomodate the number of individuals depending on them. Imagine for a second you lived in a small, independant rural community. You make a living, and everything that concerns the community is decided through an electoral process. The village wants to build a road, so everybody has to give money for the project. The village wants to provide for its older people, and everybody has to give money.
The thing with governments is, they have become so large that the average citizen no longer recognises what is being done with the money he pays into the community.
Ever drove down a road? Ever went to school? Ever used a library? Ever felt safer because you knew that there was a policeman around? Ever had your trash collected? Or do you think you're entitled to all that without paying a penny?

before you start assuming you know the whole of a post by reading the first sentence... go back and read my final (parenthetical) paragraph, please. i believe I hit on the points you just made.

To think this thought through... we need to give up freedoms to protect ourselves, and to simply exist.

yes... or at least to exist with some sense of safety.

would you rather be completely free and have to dodge drunk drivers all the time because (if we were totally free) there'd be no laws to govern our behavior... or give up the right to drive drunk (for instance) in order to help ensure that you won't have to dodge said drunk drivers (and that nobody else will have to dodge you).

hehe

Yes, I am free.

I am free because I say so.
This notion is very romantic, and it's concept is something I'd like to believe in, however I can't for the following reasons:

If you walk through a major town or city you are followed by CCTV; The electoral roll has all of our information on it (Including address) of which companies are allowed to use; Our credit history is recorded for 5 years; the idea of ID cards will also provide autorities with information, that to be quite honest I don't want them to have. On a smaller level, it's been reported that Tesco (a large supermarket in UK) has collected information about the British public (not just consumer information) and then sells this information onto other companies.

How can you call this free? You can say you're free as much as you like, however as long as this information is open for the authorities and companies to use, what we're considering to be freedom will not exist.

I'm free enough (now if only we could get rid of the vote)

mostly I think this because well I'm a bit too free if you ask me but that’s probly because I want a technocratic nanny state (no that isn't democracy)

dammit I'm off to have a revolution :mad:

EDIT: here's my stab at freedom

the options an individual can make for themselves that isn't effected by the state other than maybe some advice

EDiT2: I'm from the U.K (England to be more exact)

I'm free enough (now if only we could get rid of the vote)

mostly I think this because well I'm a bit too free if you ask me but that’s probly because I want a technocratic nanny state (no that isn't democracy)

dammit I'm off to have a revolution :mad:
Dammit I'd like to join you in that revolution if that's okay? :headbang:

Dammit I'd like to join you in that revolution if that's okay? :headbang:

hurrah! :D now if only I had guns and the Queens support (well I will just get old nazi drug doing Harry to help :))

what we're considering to be freedom will not exist.

And there is your problem. Those people doing all those things are free to do them if they want. I am free to protest about them doing those things. I am free to choose to live in a country that has CCTV everywhere (migrating from Britain is something I'm considering), and when under surveillance it is my choice to curb my behaviour or not.

I am free because I say I am. To rely on another person to decide your freedom for you is to never be free.

hurrah! :D now if only I had guns and the Queens support (well I will just get old nazi drug doing Harry to help :))
Dammit we don't need the Queen, she's half the problem. Who the hell is harry? :confused:

In respose to the taxation comment:

True, taxation does not mean that you are not free. What it means is that the federal government steal money from you. It is not a voluntary system.

well as I come from a country with at least 5 secret police groups, laws that allow the police to arrest anybody for anything (for example loitering (standing around) obstructing traffic (crossing the road) obstructing the police (existing in a way the police don't like)) they regularly tap peoples phones for no reason and people are killed by police on a regular basis and the police and army are more or less untouchable

oddly this is britain i'm talking about

Dammit we don't need the Queen, she's half the problem. Who the hell is harry? :confused:

ah but if we get the Queens support the army has to help (they all swear an oath to the Queen) but Harry works just as good oh he's the young one who did drugs and is seeing some girl look in the paper you'll see him)

well it's making a point about the armed forces freedom if you want to fight for your democracy you have to swear to serve a monarch

For me it's not the txes that bother me. I understad the need for taxes. generating money for roads, NHS and national insurance. What i object to is the raising of taxes and the reducing of amenities. Every year I seem to may morein moneya nd get less back. yes this is a selfish attitude to take, but this is te attitude that has been forced upon the Western nations by our Governments.

but Harry works just as good oh he's the young one who did drugs and is seeing some girl look in the paper you'll see him)
Sorry, being a bit slow today!

For me it's not the txes that bother me. I understad the need for taxes. generating money for roads, NHS and national insurance. What i object to is the raising of taxes and the reducing of amenities. Every year I seem to may morein moneya nd get less back. yes this is a selfish attitude to take, but this is te attitude that has been forced upon the Western nations by our Governments.

This is because ( in Britian atleast) since Margaret Thatcher stamped out the unions which did so well to represent the common worker of Britain, the government has slowly but surely forgotten that they work for us, the people. Not the other way round.

It's ironic that this New Labour government seems to be merely furthering the process.

I don't beleive in any complusary taxes, however I would pay more taxes if I could choose where they are spent myself. Plus with that system I am more likely to see the worth in taxes that I don't necessarily see as being worth while, like N.I., which was only supposed to be a temporary tax anyway. The government needs to realise that it's the people that rule and everytime they take that rule away we wil ltake it back then give it to someone else....... we should stop handing it away to other poeple as in reality there is no boundary between them and the common person.

For me it's not the txes that bother me. I understad the need for taxes. generating money for roads, NHS and national insurance. What i object to is the raising of taxes and the reducing of amenities. Every year I seem to may morein moneya nd get less back. yes this is a selfish attitude to take, but this is te attitude that has been forced upon the Western nations by our Governments.

I think that’s due to the population boom (hopefully the governments saving for it!)

also were in Iraq which I think costs a few bob though I think we should be spending more on are military so we don’t have to always fight on America’s back (remember are troops had to get food of the Americans because the army adopted Tesco’s nick of time strategy which failed miserably)

"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them to obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
-- Professor Bernardo de la Paz, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre

I am always and forever free.

"Now then, a counter argument provided by our Mr Humphries:
"I'm free, Captain Peacock!"
Or perhaps I am the only person here who thought of that the first time they saw the thread title. "

Yes I thought of Mr. humphries too. :-)

Yes I thought of Mr. humphries too. :-)
It is nice to know that I am not the only cultured rube rattling around this hole.

[QUOTE=Dissonant Cognition]"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them to obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
-- Professor Bernardo de la Paz, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre

QUOTE]
So ultimately what we are saying here is that although taxes, rules and CCTV seems to create barriers to in our freedom, we still have the choice (i.e freedom) to break these barriers.

Erm yees I agree