NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm told by self-described "moderate" Christians that the Bible isn't to be interpretted literally, that there are symbolic meanings to much of it, and that is why a lot of the scary, hateful, intollerant stuff in the Bible doesn't make it necessary for all Christians to be scary, hateful, and intollerant. Moderate Christians tell me that one can embrace other people's right to different beliefs while still believing the Bible to be the Word of God. I certainly like that suggestion, since I would vastly prefer that Christians be nice, respectful, tolerant people, rather than scary religious Inquisitors.

But I must admit, I am a little bit confused.

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God. . ."
-Deuteronomy 13:7–11

What symbolic meaning would that passage have? It seems pretty clear to me, and doesn't leave much room for waffling. If God took the time to specifically make that message very clear in His inspired Word, then we probably should pay attention, shouldn't we? He left other issues very very fuzzy, important issues like homosexuality or racism, but this one He made quite clear...especially since He prefaced it with: “Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away.” (Deuteronomy 13:1)

So how can you reconcile belief in the Bible as the Word of God with a refusal to obey that Word? How can you be a moderate Christian at all, since the Bible mandates religious extremism? Do you simply pick and choose parts to follow, based on modern morality and social systems? Do you say that the parts of the Bible that society now views as reprehensible should be tossed aside or minimized, even though God The Omnipotent laid them down as laws for His people?

The most common answer I've gotten to this question is, "Well, the Bible was written by men, and men might misunderstand or misattribute what God has said." But, if that is true, then how can you judge which parts of the Bible are accurate and which are not? Do you assume that all the nice parts are really God's word, while the mean parts are "mistakes" by the human authors? To you merely choose to obey those parts of the Bible which match up with your preconceived moral values?

You may want to take into accound the framework of the bible's intialization. It was made when there was more than one powerful religion in the Roman Empire and the Emperor wanted one, Christianity. So he got a few scholars around and said, "How to we make them stick to this?". Hence the verses you sighted.

There is also the issue of the bible's creators talking the oral stories of Christ and "jucing them up" a bit in regard to his miraculous abilities and seeming superhuman ways.

Take it as you like.

To start out with, Deuteronomy is part of the Mosaic law, and in ancient Israel, it was illegal to follow other gods. The punishment thereof was death. However, according to christians, Jesus fullfilled the mosaic law, establishing the law of Christ. Therefore, the mosaic law no longer applies.

you can make it symbolic by saying it means that god really really doesnt want us sliding off to other religions like islam or buddhism. or even incorporating pagan beliefs into our christianity like scientology (which they claim you can be a christian and still believe in)

You may want to take into accound the framework of the bible's intialization. It was made when there was more than one powerful religion in the Roman Empire and the Emperor wanted one, Christianity. So he got a few scholars around and said, "How to we make them stick to this?". Hence the verses you sighted.

There is also the issue of the bible's creators talking the oral stories of Christ and "jucing them up" a bit in regard to his miraculous abilities and seeming superhuman ways.

Take it as you like.

Deuteronomy was written a loooooong time before Christianity came along...

I am not what anyone would consider a "moderate" Christian. I hope that you don't mind me answering anyway.

There is no room for "waffleing" in Christianity. We are not called to accept others beliefs or actions when they are against the Bible. We are called to be loving. Both attitudes can co-exist.
I don't hate gay people, I don't put them down. It isn't my job to judge them. If a homosexual asks me if I "accept" thier lifestyle I just say "no". Even though I do not agree with the behavior, I am supposed to love them.
Christianity is easily perverted. Christians who go around and say "God hates..." are just as bad or worse than the ones who run around with the attitude that "anything goes"

Yes there are books of the Bible that have a lot of symbolism namely Daniel and Revelation. These books are not to be taken literally and are very scary and difficult to understand unless studied correctly, and together as one relates to the other.

The other thing I can say is that most of the time that God speaks about killing people for thier deeds, it is in the old testament and that in the new testament things kinda take a toned down course.

For example
"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God. . ."
-Deuteronomy 13:7–11

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.""Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."- 2 Corinthians 6:14-17

I'm told by self-described "moderate" Christians .........


I agree with the information in the post made. It is used as a disclaimer for God, as if there is any falacies in the Bible that this can be attributed to failures in man.
But it's not just moderate Christians that think that. I'm fairly sure that it's a belief held by black monks of St. Benedict in oxford and presumbly by the rest of that particular section of the Christian Church.

But it's not really something that is uncommon in a religion or set of philosophies. It's simply that it's not emphasized in Christianity for the obvious reason that dogma is the weapon of choice to most Christians to spread their word.

Other philosphies get right to the issue straight away. Take Taoism for example. The opening line of The Tao Te Ching is;
'The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.'


Unfortunately it's a hard thing to understand and even harder to accept. So many people need a base to support them and feel like the earth is falling beneath their feet should they not have one. Some people need to feel that things are written in brimstone (whatever difference that really makes) so they can live "their" life.

For example
"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God. . ."
-Deuteronomy 13:7–11

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.""Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."- 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Paul did say that you shouldn't avoid sinful people, since then you'd have to avoid everyone - just avoid especially sinful people and not fall into sinful ways.

Btw, it's true, the Bible is bound to have been altered by the bloody human race (damn them!) since it was written. Or even altered a little when it was written.

Paul did say that you shouldn't avoid sinful people, since then you'd have to avoid everyone - just avoid especially sinful people and not fall into sinful ways.

Btw, it's true, the Bible is bound to have been altered by the bloody human race (damn them!) since it was written. Or even altered a little when it was written.

It was assembled over the course of centuries. There's no point of when it was "written" - it's a hodgepodge of different books that were brought together a long time after they had been written, many independently from one another, and during different times.

Paul did say that you shouldn't avoid sinful people, since then you'd have to avoid everyone - just avoid especially sinful people and not fall into sinful ways.

Btw, it's true, the Bible is bound to have been altered by the bloody human race (damn them!) since it was written. Or even altered a little when it was written.
I didn't mean to imply that you should avoid sinful people. Being "yoked together" means something entirely different than most realize.
This metaphor is taken from horses or oxen which, being joined together by a common yoke, must walk and pull together in the same direction and with the same goal or have serious problems. The reason believers and unbelievers should NOT MARRY one another, form BUSINESS PARTNERSHIPS together, seek to have close SOCIAL FELLOWSHIP or CONDUCT RELIGIOUS SERVICES and projects together is that they do not have the same principles, natures, nor goals. They cannot walk together in harmony because they are not going in the same direction.
I can be friends with sinners, heck I am a sinner and I hang out with myself. It is all about putting yourself in a position to be swayed into sin, and also that Christians are under heavy scrutiny, you should make sure that your closest relationships are not with people who have opposite goals than you. It is very common to see a Christain in the company with many non-Christains and to be veiwed as a hypocrite. As you know that is one of the most common reasons people reject Christianity. (or at least one of the most common ones I hear)

To start out with, Deuteronomy is part of the Mosaic law, and in ancient Israel, it was illegal to follow other gods. The punishment thereof was death. However, according to christians, Jesus fullfilled the mosaic law, establishing the law of Christ. Therefore, the mosaic law no longer applies.
I think that about describes my feelings on it. Jesus is quoted as saying he came to do away with the old law, the old religeon.

As for all those saying that the Bible might have been changed? I can not believe that, for if anything had been changed, then there is no part of it that can be called reliable. Any passage can be brought into doubt, or even all of them. Christianity depends upon wht is set forth in the Bible, if that is doubted then so is christianity.

The Old Testament was written in a time (over a long course of time, actually) where death was considered an acceptable form of punishment. While the Old Testament is included as part of the Christian Bible, it is there to be used as the foundation for Christian laws. Followers are expected to follow the ideals of belief and worship, as well a believe the statement of God's omnipotence, that the OT teaches. They are not bound to follow thye specific code of law put foward, nor its attached punishments, etc.

You have to understand, the ancient Israelites used the OT as their national constitution. The books of Law (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) were their literal system of law. If someone went to court, they were charged with the crimes in these books and sentanced with the punishments in these books. Draconic as it may be in our times, it was actually pretty fair in comparison to other governments back then (Babylonians believed in a death for an eye, for example).

Christianity doesn't use the OT this way. They take the most basic, formulaic ideals it puts foward, and build their own rules off of them. Christians are expected to live up to God's Ten Commandments, but not the subsuquent 290-something the Israelites came up with afterwords. Instead, they follow the laws of whatever nation they live in.

People who come in and say "Christianity is a crummy religion cause of teh old testament 111!11" aren't really thinking their arguement out.

To be fair, Christianity only affected the New Testament, and Deuteronomy is Old Testament, which is Jewish.
It should also be taken into account that there are many different translations of the Bible, although they are mostly pretty similar.
Each book reflects it's writers views, which is why some passages seem to contradict each other. "Moderate" Christianity stems from a belief that Jesus came to save us from sin, and so they should help others be saved to, which means that, like Paul, one must talk to sinners, as opposed to ignoring oe condemning them. It should be noted that Jesus associated with sinners, and even became close to them, such as Mary Magdelene, who used to be a prostitute. It was this attitude that brought him into conflict with the Jewish elders who followed the Old Testament.
Plus, religion is a personal thing. So long as you beleive Jesus was the Son of God, then technically you are Christian. That does not imply you have to beleive all of the Bible, literally or otherwise. Apply it to your life as you see fit. So long as it makes you happy, then what is the problem?

(just to clarify, I am not a christian but this seems to be the view of everyone i know who is)

Just real quick (weird for me)...

Mary Magdalene was never named as a prostitute. A prostitute washed the feet of Jesus in three of the four Gospels, but in none of them was she identified as Mary M. This bad rapt has formed over 2000years of sexism, possibly to dissuade people from thinking about the whole Jesus marriage thing, maybe just by chance.

Like twelve people are bound to make this correction, I just feel like joinging the bandwagon.

So long as you beleive Jesus was the Son of God, then technically you are Christian. That does not imply you have to beleive all of the Bible, literally or otherwise. Apply it to your life as you see fit. So long as it makes you happy, then what is the problem?

(just to clarify, I am not a christian but this seems to be the view of everyone i know who is)

it is not quite that simple. Satan knows that Jesus is the son of God. He believes it. Satan knows there is a God. (He used to hang out with the guy) Surely Satan is not a Christian.

I'm going to way oversimplify Christianity here so please realize there is much more.

A- accept that you are a sinner, and are spiritually dead
B- believe that Christ is the Son of God and died for your sins, so that you may be reborn
C- Commit your life to serving Christ, and living as purely as you possibly can.

Christianity is all about service to God, we are called to be "slaves" to Him. It is most certainly not about "whatever makes you happy" because to tell the truth a lot of people are really happy sinning.

The old testament law was a covenant with God and the Jewish people. They were still under the sacrificial system for ridding themselves of sin. When Jesus died the "old law" became obsolete. Does that mean we can do whatever we want? No.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.- Romans 6:15-18

Just real quick (weird for me)...

Mary Magdalene was never named as a prostitute. A prostitute washed the feet of Jesus in three of the four Gospels, but in none of them was she identified as Mary M. This bad rapt has formed over 2000years of sexism, possibly to dissuade people from thinking about the whole Jesus marriage thing, maybe just by chance.

Like twelve people are bound to make this correction, I just feel like joinging the bandwagon.
That also made me remember that Jesus did approach Mary M. and she turned her life over to service to Him. So even though she was a sinner, she became a Christian, so using her as an example of how it is 'okay' to be close friends with sinners really doesn't work, that and the fact that we are all sinners and Jesus died for us.....

You may want to take into accound the framework of the bible's intialization. It was made when there was more than one powerful religion in the Roman Empire and the Emperor wanted one, Christianity. So he got a few scholars around and said, "How to we make them stick to this?". Hence the verses you sighted.

There is also the issue of the bible's creators talking the oral stories of Christ and "jucing them up" a bit in regard to his miraculous abilities and seeming superhuman ways.

Take it as you like.
Actually the verses he cited are old testment, and it there for can be argued that Jesus' injunction against judging least you be judged would supeceed these commands in the same way that Peters vision in Acts superceeds the dietary laws.

It is very common to see a Christain in the company with many non-Christains and to be veiwed as a hypocrite. As you know that is one of the most common reasons people reject Christianity. (or at least one of the most common ones I hear)

However, we have to be careful about being perceived as a hypocrite. If we never mingle with the "unsaved", we can't be fully obeying Christ's command.


Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

you can make it symbolic by saying it means that god really really doesnt want us sliding off to other religions like islam or buddhism. or even incorporating pagan beliefs into our christianity like scientology (which they claim you can be a christian and still believe in)
Pagan beliefs like christsmass, easter, and the traditions associated with them?

However, we have to be careful about being perceived as a hypocrite. If we never mingle with the "unsaved", we can't be fully obeying Christ's command.
true, but mingling with and being "yoked together" are two completely different things.

I am not what anyone would consider a "moderate" Christian. I hope that you don't mind me answering anyway.

There is no room for "waffleing" in Christianity. We are not called to accept others beliefs or actions when they are against the Bible. We are called to be loving. Both attitudes can co-exist.
I don't hate gay people, I don't put them down. It isn't my job to judge them. If a homosexual asks me if I "accept" thier lifestyle I just say "no". Even though I do not agree with the behavior, I am supposed to love them.
Christianity is easily perverted. Christians who go around and say "God hates..." are just as bad or worse than the ones who run around with the attitude that "anything goes"

Yes there are books of the Bible that have a lot of symbolism namely Daniel and Revelation. These books are not to be taken literally and are very scary and difficult to understand unless studied correctly, and together as one relates to the other.

The other thing I can say is that most of the time that God speaks about killing people for thier deeds, it is in the old testament and that in the new testament things kinda take a toned down course.

For example
"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God. . ."
-Deuteronomy 13:7–11

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.""Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."- 2 Corinthians 6:14-17
What is your taken on the Deuteromic law on the execution of rape victims with in a cities limits?

I agree with the information in the post made. It is used as a disclaimer for God, as if there is any falacies in the Bible that this can be attributed to failures in man.
But it's not just moderate Christians that think that. I'm fairly sure that it's a belief held by black monks of St. Benedict in oxford and presumbly by the rest of that particular section of the Christian Church.


It fits the current teachings of the Catholic church, for an additional example.

What is your taken on the Deuteromic law on the execution of rape victims with in a cities limits?
I don't believe in the death penalty so whacha think?
Even though I really would like to go out and kill a bunch of rapists and pedophiles I somehow think that God would frown upon a murderous rampage. ;)

I don't believe in the death penalty so whacha think?
Even though I really would like to go out and kill a bunch of rapists and pedophiles I somehow think that God would frown upon a murderous rampage. ;)
Whoops, that was my bad, misread what you posted and mistakenly thought you were comming out in favor of those punishments. Please except my apologies.

The bible can be interpreted hypothetically, except for the bits we like.

>_>;

In all honesty, though, not everything included in the bible is Christian law. The first five books are effectively Jewish background and laws that would have been canon at the time of Jesus; many that follow chart the escapades of various Jewish figures throughout their history and the prophecy of the coming of the Kingdom. It's a pity there isn't any more of a disclaimer than the big writing that says "Old", but whattayagonnado. ^^;

The New Testament is pretty sketchy too, and arguably less authoritive, even if it's supposedly supposed to replace the previous "divine commandment" structure. A great proportion of it is the words and communication between Christians describing an interpretation of an historical event and its long-reaching repurcussions, of which far too many in the Church today have treated as divine mandate.

In any case, what it all really boils down to is how you interpret the accounts given in the four central Gospels. Of those, none can be considered a neutral source, of course, but the first three (called the Synoptic Gospels) can be reasonably regarded as an attempt to depict the life of Jesus of Nazareth due in part to their chronology, consistency and general event-driven narrative. The fourth, John, incidentally, appears to have come quite a bit later and been heavily influenced by the thinking of Paul and the humans that mulled over what exactly it was supposed to be about, and is as such much more theologically structured.

The increasingly prevailing view in liberal moderate Christianity is that Matthew, Mark and Luke are effectively "the Bible", since the other books have a more obvious bending towards human interpretation. I think others would be better to explain exactly why, since I'm just a passive observer, really, but that seems to be what I'm getting from the British christian movement at the minute.

Whoops, that was my bad, misread what you posted and mistakenly thought you were comming out in favor of those punishments. Please except my apologies.
except or accept. quite a difference. lol j/k I am in no postition to correct anyone on gammar, spelling or usage. yeah I forgive:D I am a Christian, I supposed to. :D

except or accept. quite a difference. lol j/k I am in no postition to correct anyone on gammar, spelling or usage. yeah I forgive:D I am a Christian, I supposed to. :D
Ops, I really need to stop fliping through multiple forums at once, it screws with me grammer.

Note: I typed this like 15 minutes ago, and my cpu crashed, so its come up late. Sorry.


For those who are worried about defining Christianity:

One major problem with language is that a word can and commonly does have multiple meanings. Christianity is far from an exemption. Anyone who takes a Christian school's Theology class (staggeringly mis-named) will be bombarded with different definitions for every word that could ever be associated with faith: tradition, divine, right, law, faith, know ...

Christianity as a intellectual belief says that you know firmly that Jesus, Son of an all powerful, divine, loving God, came to Earth, died, was ressurected and , ind doing so, saved the world from sin.

Christianity as a religion is everything above, plus the fact that you have devoted your life and soul to serving the holy and correct path of this God. You believe that, by doing what God advised, you will make the world into what it was ment to be, and for thst you will be rewarded in heaven. Those who do all the ceremony because they are expected to, and those who commit sin consiously without asking repentance honest;y (see above about ceremony), aren't really Christians.

I can get into stuff about Christianity's view on other religions, but not right now. I need to go eat.

you can make it symbolic by saying it means that god really really doesnt want us sliding off to other religions like islam or buddhism. or even incorporating pagan beliefs into our christianity like scientology (which they claim you can be a christian and still believe in)

Behold, ignorance, I hath found thee!
Other religions? What is Christianity if not other religions? It is a mix between Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, and the Greek Myths, as well as minor pagan religions. Every holiday can is stolen from other religions. The only original thing that christianity has is the name of its messiah, and not even his birthday.

What is your taken on the Deuteromic law on the execution of rape victims with in a cities limits?

You should start a thread for that.

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God. . ."
-Deuteronomy 13:7–11

The most common answer I've gotten to this question is, "Well, the Bible was written by men, and men might misunderstand or misattribute what God has said." But, if that is true, then how can you judge which parts of the Bible are accurate and which are not? Do you assume that all the nice parts are really God's word, while the mean parts are "mistakes" by the human authors? To you merely choose to obey those parts of the Bible which match up with your preconceived moral values?

It sounds to me like the answers you recieved were from people who do not yet fully understand their faith.

Deutoronomy is in the Old Testament. There are three types of laws in the Old Testament. The Old Testament contains moral laws (such as the ten commandments) which all major Christian denominations follow. It also contains ritual laws which are only followed by some branches of Judaism today since Christianity considers these laws unnecessary due to the sacrifice of Jesus. Finally, it contains laws of a strictly legal nature which no one follows because it is understood that these were laws designed for a specific people at a specific time who were creating a nation and needed laws.

I wont touch on the other two types of laws in the OT because the one we are concerned with is the third category, the category that this law you pointed out falls into. This law is a strictly legal law. Israel had escaped Egypt after the events you are probably somewhat familiar with from watching "The Ten Commandments" or the more recent "Prince of Egypt" and was about to enter the promised land. They were about to become their own nation and they needed a legal system to govern their new nation. Laws such as the one you mentioned were concerned with how the nation of Israel of that time would be governed. Because of this, they no longer apply to anyone, they were specific to the nation of Israel of that time.

You can explore deeper to understand the reasons for the need for a law such as that one by studying the other religions of the time. Religions like the worship of Baal that required human sacrifice. But Ill leave such research up to you. The important thing to understand is that these laws were specifically written for the nation of Israel so that they might use them as the framework for their legal system, thus they are specific to a certain people at a certain time and do not apply to us today.

you can make it symbolic by saying it means that god really really doesnt want us sliding off to other religions like islam or buddhism. or even incorporating pagan beliefs into our christianity like scientology (which they claim you can be a christian and still believe in)
"Scientology" or the "Church of Christ, Scientist"?