NationStates Jolt Archive

In this post ( http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9643872&postcount=348) we have a compilation of suggestions as to the function of the LGBT Army. The argument currently going on in that thread can stay there for now. This thread is meant to gather suggestions for possible structures of the LGBT Army.

A few things have been suggested, but let's just get them in here all together and decide (after exhaustive discussion no doubt:)) how we want to organise ourselves.

Member list (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9604551&postcount=1)

From other thread:
Alright...issue of 'the signature' aside, as others have suggested, it's time to move on to something a bit more cohesive.

This particular feud aside, this group is composed of more than two people. There has been a call for leadership, but I don't really think any of us want to see a miniature model of a representative democracy. It would be nice if we could split into committees, each committee focusing on a particular facet of what the LGBT army would like to accomplish, and have one member from each committee (could even be on a rotating basis) report back to a central committee. If an issue comes up that needs consensus, we could bring the issue to ALL members and discuss it. The goal should be consensus if at all possible.

Thoughts? What would LGBT Army members like to see in terms of some sort of group structure/leadership?

What I was suggesting by saying we need a leader was not someone to rule over us, but rather someone to chair discussions. Everything has sort of drifted around, with no one keeping us on topic. Side discussions about sig lines and such have become the main thrust. If we are to get anything done, I think it would be beneficial to have someone banging the gavel and saying "this is the point we are currently discussing... lets put other topics on the list and come back to them once we have settled this one". Someone who could say "the time limit for discussion on this issue is two days, then we will vote, so say what you would like to say now, please" and when appropriate, call the vote.

Anyone could put a topic on the list to be discussed (which could be posted) but it would be helpful to have someone keeping some basic parlimentary order, I think.

It seems imperative at this point that we develop some sort of structure that allows LGBT Army group members to collaborate on projects, without getting hung up on single issues. Again, I'm going to suggest a loose committee structure, and someone with more will can suggest a more solid structure for conflict resolution (arbitration).

The three main areas that have come up in previous discussion are: (summarised from this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9643872&postcount=348).)

1) Working here on NS create a series of threads called “Fostering Understanding”, designed to educate and discuss relevant issues.
----------------Sinuhue (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9668416&postcount=17))
----------------Ardchoille ( link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9669315&postcount=36))

2) Create an online zine, with the same goals as the “Fostering Understanding” series.
----------------Sumamba Buwhan (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9668578&postcount=25)) ( 2nd link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9668857&postcount=31))
----------------Feraulaer (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9668804&postcount=30))
----------------It Is Just Me (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9668933&postcount=32 web))
----------------Upper Dobbs Town (link ( http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9670225&postcount=41))
3) Plan and carry out direct action.
----------------The Nazz (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9666886&postcount=4))

For those of you too busy to commit to any particular project, but still willing to help out from time to time, there is a new category:

4) Occasional Odd Jobs (or not quite any of the above)
----------------Ifraenn (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9667420&postcount=9))
----------------Melonious Ones (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9671954&postcount=51))
----------------Muntoo (link ( http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9673188&postcount=70))

If you'd like to focus on one particular issue, please say so. Perhaps we could, in conjunction with forming a structure, actually make links between people with similar interests, and get a few projects going.

As people indicate what they'd like to do, I'll put them into the list, so we can perhaps get some general groups going. I'll also put a link to their post so you can see what they specifically have in mind.

I'd be interested in working on the direct action part--writing letters to the editor, emailing and calling people who are involved in discrimination, bringing attention to news articles dealing with discrimination, that sort of thing.

It seems imperative at this point that we develop some sort of structure that allows LGBT Army group members to collaborate on projects, without getting hung up on single issues. Again, I'm going to suggest a loose committee structure, and someone with more will can suggest a more solid structure for conflict resolution (arbitration).

well why wait?who wants to nominate themselves,or someone else,for this committee of sorts?then we can have a poll to vote them in.

well why wait?who wants to nominate themselves,or someone else,for this committee of sorts?then we can have a poll to vote them in.
The way I see it working is not people being voted into a committee...people who want to work on a particular aspect bring up what they'd be willing to do, and link up with others who'd like to help. Then, once a sort of loose committee is formed, they can choose who's going to take the responsibility of updating the rest of us. They can chair that particular committee.

Is there something you yourself wish to work on?

The way I see it working is not people being voted into a committee...people who want to work on a particular aspect bring up what they'd be willing to do, and link up with others who'd like to help. Then, once a sort of loose committee is formed, they can choose who's going to take the responsibility of updating the rest of us. They can chair that particular committee.

Is there something you yourself wish to work on?

ah now i understand.sorry bout that.im not sure at the moment if theres anything specific id like to work on.

ah now i understand.sorry bout that.im not sure at the moment if theres anything specific id like to work on.
If you don't want to work in RL on a 'campaign' or anything like that, you might consider being one of the Generalites who work on one of the suggestions under the first point:

1) Working here on NS create a series of threads called “Fostering Understanding”, designed to educate and discuss relevant issues.

a. Create a thread devoted to listing topics of discussion, with input both from members and non-members of the LGBT Army. The idea here being that we will find issues that others are interested in, as well as learning who our opponents will be in a particular debate
b. Compile debate points for these issues, including the points of the opposition. When starting a new thread, list all the opposition points first, then discredit them all at once.
c. Keep the thread in the series linked back to the main topic list, as the topics will most likely overlap, so that we can avoid having to repost the same argument over and over, but instead can just refer back to the other threads.
d. Look at past topic threads and skim them for compelling arguments, rather than start new ones. (Link to these arguments as well?)
e. Word new threads in such a way that they don’t degenerate into gridlock where both sides end up agreeing to disagree as posters come and go.
f. Avoid religious arguments. Focus on secular law, secular society, discrimination, etc.

You don't have to START yet...but it might be something you'll be willing to help with once a few more people agree to help?

If you don't want to work in RL on a 'campaign' or anything like that, you might consider being one of the Generalites who work on one of the suggestions under the first point:

1) Working here on NS create a series of threads called “Fostering Understanding”, designed to educate and discuss relevant issues.

a. Create a thread devoted to listing topics of discussion, with input both from members and non-members of the LGBT Army. The idea here being that we will find issues that others are interested in, as well as learning who our opponents will be in a particular debate
b. Compile debate points for these issues, including the points of the opposition. When starting a new thread, list all the opposition points first, then discredit them all at once.
c. Keep the thread in the series linked back to the main topic list, as the topics will most likely overlap, so that we can avoid having to repost the same argument over and over, but instead can just refer back to the other threads.
d. Look at past topic threads and skim them for compelling arguments, rather than start new ones. (Link to these arguments as well?)
e. Word new threads in such a way that they don’t degenerate into gridlock where both sides end up agreeing to disagree as posters come and go.
f. Avoid religious arguments. Focus on secular law, secular society, discrimination, etc.

You don't have to START yet...but it might be something you'll be willing to help with once a few more people agree to help?


well ill be too busy in school in the future(last year) to be highly involved,but i'll certainly help with that when i am on.

well ill be too busy in school in the future(last year) to be highly involved,but i'll certainly help with that when i am on.
Anything is better than nothing :D

I'll put you down as 'occasional odd-jobs' :fluffle:

Anything is better than nothing :D

I'll put you down as 'occasional odd-jobs' :fluffle:

ill be great at odd jobs.and not just cos im so odd! :D :fluffle:

I want to be responsible for the golden shin-guards, and the execution of homophobes. We all get AK-47s, right?

I want to be responsible for the golden shin-guards, and the execution of homophobes. We all get AK-47s, right?
Hmmmm...the AK-47 is widely seen as a 'communist' gun...and not all our members will want to be associated with the ideology of communism, or the ideology of violence...so...uh...no...sorry :p

I want to be responsible for the golden shin-guards, and the execution of homophobes. We all get AK-47s, right?

what kind of army do you think this is?of course we do!
mwahahahaha (http://paintball.aventure.free.fr/images/ak47%20r.jpg) AK-47s for everyone!

Just a suggestion--I changed the link in my sig to point to this thread instead of the other, rancorous thread, since this is the place where it looks like we'll be doing the planning for the moment.

Just a suggestion--I changed the link in my sig to point to this thread instead of the other, rancorous thread, since this is the place where it looks like we'll be doing the planning for the moment.
Sounds good.

I'm all about the thread work, for the time being. When I can, I'd like to compile a 'fostering understanding' master thread linking to threads on specific LGBT issues.

In this post ( http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9643872&postcount=348) we have a compilation of suggestions as to the function of the LGBT Army. The argument currently going on in that thread can stay there for now. This thread is meant to gather suggestions for possible structures of the LGBT Army.

A few things have been suggested, but let's just get them in here all together and decide (after exhaustive discussion no doubt:)) how we want to organise ourselves.

Member list (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9604551&postcount=1)

Well, for one thing...the nature of the above-referenced fued must be resolved, and someone needs to come to the plate and resolve it. I will not stand for having a label attached to ME that I did not consent to.

It seems imperative at this point that we develop some sort of structure that allows LGBT Army group members to collaborate on projects, without getting hung up on single issues. Again, I'm going to suggest a loose committee structure, and someone with more will can suggest a more solid structure for conflict resolution (arbitration).

The three main areas that have come up in previous discussion are: (summarised from this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9643872&postcount=348).)

1) Working here on NS create a series of threads called “Fostering Understanding”, designed to educate and discuss relevant issues.
---------------Sinuhue (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9668416&postcount=17))

2) Create an online zine, with the same goals as the “Fostering Understanding” series.

3) Plan and carry out direct action.
---------------The Nazz (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9666886&postcount=4))

For those of you too busy to commit to any particular project, but still willing to help out from time to time, there is a new category:

4) Occasional Odd Jobs
---------------Ifraenn (link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9667420&postcount=9))

If you'd like to focus on one particular issue, please say so. Perhaps we could, in conjunction with forming a structure, actually make links between people with similar interests, and get a few projects going.

As people indicate what they'd like to do, I'll put them into the list, so we can perhaps get some general groups going. I'll also put a link to their post so you can see what they specifically have in mind.


Sounds good. But I refuse to work with Nadkor on ANYTHING.

I'm pretty busy much of the time. But I'll be able to help out in the threads department as an "officer" :p

well why wait?who wants to nominate themselves,or someone else,for this committee of sorts?then we can have a poll to vote them in.

I'm for creating a committe for dealing with TG issues specifically, and I would be honored if Dobbs would help me on such a committee. No offense, but I feel that only TG people can best understand the special needs and concerns of TG people. In my experience GLB folks have shown themselves to be either ignorant...or completely uncaring, to downright hostile towards, issues that affect TG people.

Hmmmm...the AK-47 is widely seen as a 'communist' gun...and not all our members will want to be associated with the ideology of communism, or the ideology of violence...so...uh...no...sorry :p

Very good, Sinuhue. That was inflammatory, and you damn well know it. so, congratualtions, your singular "wit" has landed you on my shit list, right beside Nadokor.

I resfuse to work with sinuhue on anything, wither.

I have a long memory, too, don't think I'll be forgetting these slights against me any time soon, because I won't.

Not until I've gotten a public apology.

:headbang:

I just now read the other thread. Fine. So be it. But I refuse to forgive, or forget. I will not forget the dishonor these people have tried to hang on me. I refuse to work with either of them, and both are being placed on my ignore list. Forever. End.

I can be the webmaster! :)

I think that I am getting better at arbitration too, but am unsure about how much work that will entail and I am positive I will need help keeping the peace as sometimes I jut don't know how to handle some people.

Plus there are times when I am extreemely busy, out of state, have a major migrane or am just feeling really unsociable and don't want to deal with anyone (plus I'm sure everyone else has really busy lives as well) so we need to make sure that we dont set unrealisitic schedules or expect too much from anyone.

You were asked at the beginning of the thread to leave that issue in the other thread. Please abide by this request.

I can be the webmaster! :)

I think that I am getting better at arbitration too, but am unsure about how much work that will entail and I am positive I will need help keeping the peace as sometimes I jut don't know how to handle some people. True...I do think we're going to need some sort of avenue for arbitration (binding within the group, if consensus or a compromise can not be reached)

Plus there are times when I am extreemely busy, out of state, have a major migrane or am just feeling really unsociable and don't want to deal with anyone (plus I'm sure everyone else has really busy lives as well) so we need to make sure that we dont set unrealisitic schedules or expect too much from anyone.
I think we can reasonably expect that things will get done...eventually:). Being updated on major delays might be nice though.

I can be the webmaster! :)

I think that I am getting better at arbitration too, but am unsure about how much work that will entail and I am positive I will need help keeping the peace as sometimes I jut don't know how to handle some people.

Plus there are times when I am extreemely busy, out of state, have a major migrane or am just feeling really unsociable and don't want to deal with anyone (plus I'm sure everyone else has really busy lives as well) so we need to make sure that we dont set unrealisitic schedules or expect too much from anyone.
I vote for whoever runs for webmaster against Sumamba. Getting better at arbitration, my left clavicle! Arbitration does not involve not stepping into the middle of, and resolving a conflict.

You were asked at the beginning of the thread to leave that issue in the other thread. Please abide by this request.

Yes. and YOU saw fit to make a snarky comment, and an oblique reference to it in this thread yourself.

Pot, meet kettle!

Can anyone explain to me how to ignore somebody? Cause I'd really like to help out with creating that online magazine. :)

to put someone on ignore: go to your profile and look for your friends/ignore list. You can add people for either there.

You are going to vote against me doing the webmaster thing because you don't think I'm good at arbitration? Wouldnt you rather I not be an arbitrator then? I think that would make more sense. I am more than qualified to be webmaster because that is what I do for a living. As for arbitration, yes I did suggest that I would need help if I did that because there are people who are completely unwillign to compromise and I don't know how to handle them. IF that makes me a poor choice for arbitration, then so be it. I am okay with not doing that, I just thought it would be a tough job that most people would want to avoid so I thought I would help out by putting some of my time into that.

btw, if anyone else wants to help with web stuff or be the main webmaster instead just say so. Here's the stuff I can do: HTML, JavaScript, ASP, SQL. I work with MS Access and MSSQL for data driven stuff. I can also do photoshop work, but I would rather Dobbs or someone else with more artistic capability do our artwork, logos, design ideas.

I would very much like to work with Su on the website/online magazine.

I would like to be an editor, taking materials and organizing them, perhaps proofreading and editing articles, helping with layout, etc. and writing articles myself. I would like to help organize info that others find in a coherent form so that related pieces are linked, and do various other tasks along those lines. As I have mentioned before, I am not strong in HTML and Java, but I am quite good with language, and with organization.

Hmmmm...the AK-47 is widely seen as a 'communist' gun...and not all our members will want to be associated with the ideology of communism, or the ideology of violence...so...uh...no...sorry :p
Alright, I'll give up on communism? But violence? Never! *slays Sinuhue*

We're an army, and we will act like one.

I just now read the other thread. Fine. So be it. But I refuse to forgive, or forget. I will not forget the dishonor these people have tried to hang on me. I refuse to work with either of them, and both are being placed on my ignore list. Forever. End.
Ugh,, why are all your posts "me against the world" and "undying vengeance"? I understand that you've probably gone through bad stuff in your life but if you are this worked up over a joke on an internet forum then you are surely going to kill yourself with stress.

This is why that anarchy thing can never work.

Far be it from me to suggest it, but I think you are going to need a more formal structure in order to deal with exactly this type of problem.

I'm flat out with deadlines right now. However, I'm still interested in knowing what laws apply where in relation to LGBT issues. We might have two threads: one on the law as it stands now, one a heads-up to proposed changes. If either of those start up, I'll volunteer to do the research on the Australian Federal laws. At this stage, I don't even know if Australian States differ from the Federal stuff, though I do think I saw something along the lines of the ACT being more liberal on adoption.

If no-one else has had time to start such threads by Friday, and if there's general agreement that they'd be useful, then I'll be the bunny and get them going.

Obviously I'm no expert on these subjects. Anything I did would be just a summary of what I found on Google. Being an Australian, I'd start with the slight advantage of knowing what media outlets, etc, to check. Other nationalities would have the same advantage on their home ground. Once we got something going, we could then appeal for trained-in-law people to comment.

to put someone on ignore: go to your profile and look for your friends/ignore list. You can add people for either there.

You are going to vote against me doing the webmaster thing because you don't think I'm good at arbitration? Wouldnt you rather I not be an arbitrator then? I think that would make more sense. I am more than qualified to be webmaster because that is what I do for a living. As for arbitration, yes I did suggest that I would need help if I did that because there are people who are completely unwillign to compromise and I don't know how to handle them. IF that makes me a poor choice for arbitration, then so be it. I am okay with not doing that, I just thought it would be a tough job that most people would want to avoid so I thought I would help out by putting some of my time into that.

btw, if anyone else wants to help with web stuff or be the main webmaster instead just say so. Here's the stuff I can do: HTML, JavaScript, ASP, SQL. I work with MS Access and MSSQL for data driven stuff. I can also do photoshop work, but I would rather Dobbs or someone else with more artistic capability do our artwork, logos, design ideas.


No, I am voting against you for webmaster just because I'm angry at you.

I threw in the comment about arbitration, because, in the same post, you claimed to be getting better at arbitration, and I pointed out that I thought that assertion was poppycock, as witnessed by your complete refusal to step in and ARBITRATE while it was still possible. Instead, you allowed passions to boil over, and now you have people who will not work with other people.

Because I am angry with them. And will be for a long time to come.

My vote against you as webmaster is a vote against you purely out of spite and anger. Nothing to do with your qualifications, or lack thereof, since I know nothing of your qualifications in that area.

But I know of your obvious lack of qualifications in terms of arbitration, and decided to point them out.

Ugh,, why are all your posts "me against the world" and "undying vengeance"? I understand that you've probably gone through bad stuff in your life but if you are this worked up over a joke on an internet forum then you are surely going to kill yourself with stress.

Yeah...and hope those who CAUSE it feel REAL DAMN GOOD about themselves when it happens!!

Yeah...and hope those who CAUSE it feel REAL DAMN GOOD about themselves when it happens!!

Well this certainly wins my WTF of the year 2005 award.

Yeah...and hope those who CAUSE it feel REAL DAMN GOOD about themselves when it happens!!

I really think you should go read "Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell.

*sighs*

Okay, I'm caught up - now I'm going to bed. On offer: graphics, motion graphics, editing, 3D modelling/animation 2D modelling/animation capabilities. Typically formatted for video output, compression and sizing your choice.

*I'm feeling somewhat cross, but I'm determined to be constructive*

We could try a 'council' of 5 or 6 members who 'represent' the various sections of the group. For example, a representative of each letter (L,G,B and T), and then one for straight people, and one who is just universally respected. They could raise issues with the others concerning their 'section' and help co-ordinate strategy etc.

I really think you should go read "Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell.

Meaning what, exactly?

I am just saying that, since someone decided it would be a great deal of fun to just aggrivate me and aggrivate me, and keep angering me, and antagonizing me...that when I finally do develop a serious, stress-related health condition...that those who CAUSED it feel real damn proud of themselves.

Hope your FUN was worth the guilty conscience you ought to have for causing one of your fellow human beings to have deteriorating health.

Meaning what, exactly?

I am just saying that, since someone decided it would be a great deal of fun to just aggrivate me and aggrivate me, and keep angering me, and antagonizing me...that when I finally do develop a serious, stress-related health condition...that those who CAUSED it feel real damn proud of themselves.

Hope your FUN was worth the guilty conscience you ought to have for causing one of your fellow human beings to have deteriorating health.

Yah, well don't lose the overall message in that. Otherwise good job.

*sighs*

Okay, I'm caught up - now I'm going to bed. On offer: graphics, motion graphics, editing, 3D modelling/animation 2D modelling/animation capabilities. Typically formatted for video output, compression and sizing your choice.

*I'm feeling somewhat cross, but I'm determined to be constructive*

Kuhl - work with me on a site design. colors, logo, some sort of artsy theme that plays off the army thing maybe.

We could try a 'council' of 5 or 6 members who 'represent' the various sections of the group. For example, a representative of each letter (L,G,B and T), and then one for straight people, and one who is just universally respected. They could raise issues with the others concerning their 'section' and help co-ordinate strategy etc.


i was thinking something similar. as for universally respected. That'd be me :p i kid - i kid

I think someone should try to recruit cat-tribe! he rules and i think he is definitely universally respected.

This is why that anarchy thing can never work.

Far be it from me to suggest it, but I think you are going to need a more formal structure in order to deal with exactly this type of problem.

yeah we're trying to figure that one out (hence the thread title). who gets the guns and who orders the shots fired? :p

I like the counsel of 5 idea (nakdor - it should be an odd number in case of vote ties.)

yeah we're trying to figure that one out (hence the thread title). who gets the guns and who orders the shots fired? :p

I like the counsel of 5 idea (nakdor - it should be an odd number in case of vote ties.)

Yah, the thing of it is, if you want to be an effective force, you all will have to put your differences aside and fight on a "popular front". You should take your victories and then divide the spoils, not vice versa. Otherwise you will just become a laughing stock.

As I said, though, it's not really my place to comment, because frankly what you do, or do not do, with your "naughty bits", is of no concern of mine.

(And in the interest of full disclosure, my brother is gay; yes, I am not happy with that, because if I said I was it would be a lie. Yes I still love him anyway. And I think that there are a lot of poseurs on this forum who want gay "cool" who frankly have never addressed this issue. But I won't join your army).

We could try a 'council' of 5 or 6 members who 'represent' the various sections of the group. For example, a representative of each letter (L,G,B and T), and then one for straight people, and one who is just universally respected. They could raise issues with the others concerning their 'section' and help co-ordinate strategy etc.

This gels with my beliefs...rather than 'a leader'...a council that must build consensus within their own 'groups' to arrive at a position, they would then bring that position into the LGBT council. Sumamba suggested an odd number in case of ties, and mention was made of Cat Tribe as being universally respected (though Universally Respected is probably a title that will never be unanimously agreed upon:)).

What do people think about organising around the LGBT groups? I think a lot of us just want to get going, and need some sort of structure in order to do that. Remember...nothing is set in stone. This organisation can be reworked if we find it doesn't really suit our needs.

I'd like to see the 'tie-breaker', if it be Cat Tribe, or someone else, as not a permanent member of the council, but rather a Mediator in cases where consensus or agreement is impossible. Their job would not be just to unilaterally take a side (so not really a tie-breaker)...but to try to get the sides to work out a compromise. If the sides remain deadlocked, I don't think the Mediator should be able to decide one way or another (otherwise, we risk losing trust in the Mediator), but rather the issue should be taken back to the group as a whole and voted upon anonymously (if possible).*

This is how I'm kind of seeing the suggestions playing out:

Army council: Made up of representatives of each letter, and a Mediator*
( ( ( ( (
L G B T M

Letter reps would be decided upon by members of that group. (Do we want to go with the title Letter Rep?:)) Letter reps should also be able to step down, or be removed by a vote of non-confidence. I don't think we need a timeframe for rep changes, because frankly, involvement in this group is purely voluntary, and what time you are able to devote to it is going to depend on your RL schedule. Ideally, a rep would not be someone who can not devote the time necessary to the group (time necessary being a personal judgement call).

Then, we would have Action Reps. People working together (regardless what 'letter' they belong to) on a particular project (say, web design for example) need to report back to the group as a whole with updates, requests for help, whatever. The Action Groups would probably be doing the bulk of the actual work...and may or may not be made up of the same Letters. The Letter groups would allow people with similar backgrounds (used here in a very loose sense) to discuss certain issues, maybe make suggestions to the Action Groups for possible projects, provide information to the Action Groups, or work as Action Groups themselves on specific issues. Confused yet?

So say you were in the B Letter Group. You are also part of the Web-Design Action Group. That Action Group is designing a Logo. You bring the logo back to the B Letter Group and ask for feedback. The B Letter Group decides as a whole that the logo does not adequately represent them...the B looks more like a set of tits, say, than a B:). You can go back to the Action Group and give B Letter Group's feedback.

Now say the Action Group doesn't change the logo, despite repeated requests and suggestions. I think at this point the Letter Council should be called. A rep from each Letter Group would get together, and discuss the issue. The Rep from the Action Group in question could be asked to explain from the Action Group's point of view. A discussion would ensue, and a ruling reached by the Letter Council. If consensus can not be reached, we'd call in the Mediator. If mediation didn't work, or if a Letter Rep receives a vote of non-confidence from their Letter Group for their position, we'd take the issue to a whole-group vote.

What do the rest of you think? Complicated enough for you? It isn't actually...I just suck at being succinct:).

This is kind of how I envision it:

Org Chart (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/sinorgchart.jpg)

Yeah, I'm a big fat loser. I know :p

I'll do odd jobs when they arise..... Well depends on the job. o.O

This gels with my beliefs...rather than 'a leader'...a council that must build consensus within their own 'groups' to arrive at a position, they would then bring that position into the LGBT council. Sumamba suggested an odd number in case of ties, and mention was made of Cat Tribe as being universally respected (though Universally Respected is probably a title that will never be unanimously agreed upon:)).

What do people think about organising around the LGBT groups? I think a lot of us just want to get going, and need some sort of structure in order to do that. Remember...nothing is set in stone. This organisation can be reworked if we find it doesn't really suit our needs.

I'd like to see the 'tie-breaker', if it be Cat Tribe, or someone else, as not a permanent member of the council, but rather a Mediator in cases where consensus or agreement is impossible. Their job would not be just to unilaterally take a side (so not really a tie-breaker)...but to try to get the sides to work out a compromise. If the sides remain deadlocked, I don't think the Mediator should be able to decide one way or another (otherwise, we risk losing trust in the Mediator), but rather the issue should be taken back to the group as a whole and voted upon anonymously (if possible).*

This is how I'm kind of seeing the suggestions playing out:

Army council: Made up of representatives of each letter, and a Mediator*
( ( ( ( (
L G B T M

Letter reps would be decided upon by members of that group. (Do we want to go with the title Letter Rep?:)) Letter reps should also be able to step down, or be removed by a vote of non-confidence. I don't think we need a timeframe for rep changes, because frankly, involvement in this group is purely voluntary, and what time you are able to devote to it is going to depend on your RL schedule. Ideally, a rep would not be someone who can not devote the time necessary to the group (time necessary being a personal judgement call).

Then, we would have Action Reps. People working together (regardless what 'letter' they belong to) on a particular project (say, web design for example) need to report back to the group as a whole with updates, requests for help, whatever. The Action Groups would probably be doing the bulk of the actual work...and may or may not be made up of the same Letters. The Letter groups would allow people with similar backgrounds (used here in a very loose sense) to discuss certain issues, maybe make suggestions to the Action Groups for possible projects, provide information to the Action Groups, or work as Action Groups themselves on specific issues. Confused yet?

So say you were in the B Letter Group. You are also part of the Web-Design Action Group. That Action Group is designing a Logo. You bring the logo back to the B Letter Group and ask for feedback. The B Letter Group decides as a whole that the logo does not adequately represent them...the B looks more like a set of tits, say, than a B:). You can go back to the Action Group and give B Letter Group's feedback.

Now say the Action Group doesn't change the logo, despite repeated requests and suggestions. I think at this point the Letter Council should be called. A rep from each Letter Group would get together, and discuss the issue. The Rep from the Action Group in question could be asked to explain from the Action Group's point of view. A discussion would ensue, and a ruling reached by the Letter Council. If consensus can not be reached, we'd call in the Mediator. If mediation didn't work, or if a Letter Rep receives a vote of non-confidence from their Letter Group for their position, we'd take the issue to a whole-group vote.

What do the rest of you think? Complicated enough for you? It isn't actually...I just suck at being succinct:).


I like it - especially the part about the B looking like tits. :p

What about the straights? - they should have an action group too.

I'll do odd jobs when they arise..... Well depends on the job. o.O


That's a necessary qualifier or you never know what this group will ask of you! :D

I like it - especially the part about the B looking like tits. :p

What about the straights? - they should have an action group too.
I agree...but should they have a say on the council? They could be part of the membership, but not necessarily be represented on the council...hmmm...that's problematic, isn't it? Do we need to add an 'S' to the LGBT?

LGBTS?

I don't really feel that works...

This is kind of how I envision it:

Org Chart (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/sinorgchart.jpg)

Yeah, I'm a big fat loser. I know :p


good chart/organizational ideas!

good chart/organizational ideas!
I'm hoping that by the end of today, group members of the LGBT Army can give their feedback, and we can perhaps have a vote on the suggested structure...I don't want to just say, "HEY GUYS, HERE'S MY IDEA, LET'S JUST DO IT!!!".

I agree...but should they have a say on the council? They could be part of the membership, but not necessarily be represented on the council...hmmm...that's problematic, isn't it? Do we need to add an 'S' to the LGBT?

LGBTS?

I don't really feel that works...

I also agree with this. I think that it's good that the LGBT have some of us straight folks who back the cause, however the council itself should be made up by the actual LGBT community with strong support from us straight folks. Basically what I'm saying is that I agree with Sinuhue on this issue.

I agree...but should they have a say on the council? They could be part of the membership, but not necessarily be represented on the council...hmmm...that's problematic, isn't it? Do we need to add an 'S' to the LGBT?

LGBTS?

I don't really feel that works...That's cool with me as well--I've always looked at my involvement with this as part of an alliance, since I'm straight and don't actually suffer the discrimination y'all do. I can't speak for all the straights who have signed up, but I think it's understandable that we, while offering suggestions for action, might not be part of the final decision process. I have enough confidence and faith in y'all that I'm not afraid you'll dismiss our opinions or suggestions simply because we're straight.

That's cool with me as well--I've always looked at my involvement with this as part of an alliance, since I'm straight and don't actually suffer the discrimination y'all do. I can't speak for all the straights who have signed up, but I think it's understandable that we, while offering suggestions for action, might not be part of the final decision process. I have enough confidence and faith in y'all that I'm not afraid you'll dismiss our opinions or suggestions simply because we're straight.

Well said Nazz. :)

okay - if it's okay with the normals, then I won't push for them to have an action group as well. But you can't say I didn't try to give EVERYONE a completely equal part in every facet of this organization :)

*waits for someone to take offense at the "normals" comment*
IT"S A JOKE YOU BIG SILLY!

okay - if it's okay with the normals, then I won't push for them to have an action group as well. But you can't say I didn't try to give EVERYONE a completely equal part in every facet of this organization :)

*waits for someone to take offense at the "normals" comment*
IT"S A JOKE YOU BIG SILLY!

News Flash, you're normal too. No offense taken. :)

News Flash, you're normal too. No offense taken. :)


Hey, no need for name-calling :p

You may think I'm normal but it's all an illusion! *twiddles fingers as he makes a wavy motion with his hands*

:fluffle:

Hey, no need for name-calling :p

You may think I'm normal but it's all an illusion! *twiddles fingers as he makes a wavy motion with his hands*

:fluffle:

Well... what is normal anyway? I say I'm normal for me.. however I assure you others perhaps would disagree.. *LOL* ;) :fluffle:

I agree...but should they have a say on the council? They could be part of the membership, but not necessarily be represented on the council...hmmm...that's problematic, isn't it? Do we need to add an 'S' to the LGBT?

LGBTS?

I don't really feel that works...

Gotta say I have a little problem with the idea that ANY group is not represented or prohibited from a say on the council. When originally proposed, the whole idea was that anybody who wanted to join could, all they had to be was sympathetic to the issues which is what made it so attractive to me. So, unfortunately, I think that your system is divisive in sort of the wrong ways.

I would like to suggest the same sort of organization layout, but along the lines of what projects we are working on, not on our sexuality. So the Website would be one group, the Fostering Understanding thread posters would be another, the Action group, the Odd Jobs... and others that could be added as the need arises. Each group would be made up of anyone at all who is interested in working in those areas no matter what letter they are. I certainly think that WITHIN those areas, there are going to be specific issues that may be particularly one letter or the other, and perhaps having separate discussion groups of L, G, B, T (&S, for that matter) where any issues from any of the project groups can be discussed by those specifically concerned with it (and anyone else who wishes to participate) is a good idea.

And how about LGBT & S? Hard to get more inclusive than that.

The organising along the lines of projects was my first suggestion, and I still like it. I don't think people need to pigeonhole themselves into a "Letter"...but then again...if that's what people want to do, I'll accept it. However, the Letter Representatives, in my mind, were less than an actual ruling body, than a sort of method of mediation to resolve conflicts. Like the Supreme Court...not really involved in the day to day stuff. And straight folks could have representation on the Letter Council if members want that. I think most of what goes on in the LGBT (and S) Army is going to be done by like-minded individuals working together, based on interests, not sex, gender or sexuality.

Of course, having a letter council still forces people to group with others based on sex, gender or sexuality...instead of common interests and beliefs. Just because someone in the B letter group thinks one way, doesn't mean all B people will agree....

Keep the suggestions coming, folks!

I agree...but should they have a say on the council? They could be part of the membership, but not necessarily be represented on the council...hmmm...that's problematic, isn't it? Do we need to add an 'S' to the LGBT?

LGBTS?

I don't really feel that works...I think if they're serious about being a part of this group, they should have a say on the council.

However, I think there should be someone who can at least exercise emergency powers in the event something comes along that requires a strong leader to make decisions.

I'd rather not get into specific examples, but I think people may be able to see generally where I'm going with this.

I think if they're serious about being a part of this group, they should have a say on the council.

However, I think there should be someone who can at least exercise emergency powers in the event something comes along that requires a strong leader to make decisions.

I'd rather not get into specific examples, but I think people may be able to see generally where I'm going with this.
We do. I really want to avoid having a 'strong leader', as in one, or two, or even three. Some sort of system for mediation, and possibly binding arbitration, yes...but not a person who can unilaterally kick out members, or decide on particular issues. We need to make sure that the membership as a whole is able to make major decisions. I still like the idea of having some sort of council, with elected representatives who can be removed, step down, or changed as the need arises. There is no way we are going to please everyone in the choosing of some sort of one 'leader', and I frankly wouldn't trust someone who WANTED that position. We are too diverse a group to put our faith and decision making powers solely in the hands of one person.

I keep going back and forth on this idea of Letter Reps...

Really, any way we decide on how we're going to group ourselves is going to be based on arbitrary criteria. If the bulk of us focus on specific issues and actions, and use the Letter Council only to resolve disputes or to organise a vote on major issues, would we be happy with 'electing' a rep from among the 5 (LGBT &S) groups?

If something came up...for example, the B looking like tits in the logo, then the reps could call meetings with their group members, get a general consensus, and come back to the council with their vote on the issue. We would have five council members...so no ties. Other than these rare occasions (hopefully rare), the groupings according to sex, gender or sexuality would not really be important.

I hadnt realised that ppl had gone into such depth on this topic..nice one all round!

I must admit that i cant add anything to the discussion except for the election of the mediator..unless this has already been decided and i just missed it!

Simple really...all "letter reps" agree on the mediator...removal by same method...

Okay, I like the org chart. This makes sense to do it this way and the structure is pretty sound.

Having said that, I agree with Nazz that I don't think straights actually need their own letter here...but having a say in the council would be good.

My kids are sucking up quite a bit of my time lately, so I'd better just sign up for the odd job to do. I'll pick up the slack when I can.

I don't really feel that we should be dividing the council up by orientation. Some of us may not even know yet what our orientation is. I mean what if someone initionaly feels that they are straight or gay/lesbian, and then later on realise that Bisexual would be an even more accurate description of there sexuality. And as an indivisualist I don't believe in labels anyway. All of us in the L.G.B.T. community are equaly "queer", for lack of a better word, no matter what our attractions and actions may or not be.

hmmm... I'm not sure. To be honest... I don't love the org chart, because it seems somewhat.... divisive to seperate each group like that. However, I don't see a better way to do it, and despite my effort, I can't think of a better one. It certainly has advantages too. Just something sticks to me that doesn't feel right, somehow. I most certainly agree that straight people who are members need some representation, because it's wrong otherwise.

I'm also unsure what power precisely the representatives have. I see a need for some, sure... but please don't tell me they'll be like political representatives, and give all the neat jobs to their dads friends. (sorry, couldn't resist... damn...)
More seriously.... please don't tell me that they'll be putting forward their own views as primary, and will actually represent the overall views of the group. *naturally being voted to the position relieves SOME of this possibility, it does not negate it.*

Unfortunately, I don't have ideas of my own, I haven't thought long enough about it yet.

Myabe the S people could be represented on the council,but not in a voting capacity,more to throw out ideas and make suggestions,and for the sake of being able to say everyone is reperesented.
i was going to suggest an S person be the mediator,but there are most likely going to be more LGBT people in this group,so chances are a good mediator will come out of one of those groups.

Well, obviously I'm willing to do anything needed (barring violence). I like the suggestion of a loose confederation, a parlaiment if you will, to head up such matters and, should a Board of Directors be formed, I'd love to be on it.

I've got a lot of experience with drafting Bylaws and have worked with several GLBT publications in the Houston area. So either way, I'm great.

The idea of violent proaction, though, crawls under my skin. So ... no.

Also, a huge part of the LGBT community are the supporters ... the friends and family. I believe they should have equal representation under an "S".

Very good, Sinuhue. That was inflammatory, and you damn well know it. so, congratualtions, your singular "wit" has landed you on my shit list, right beside Nadokor.

I resfuse to work with sinuhue on anything, wither.

I have a long memory, too, don't think I'll be forgetting these slights against me any time soon, because I won't.

Not until I've gotten a public apology.
Stop ruining all the fun.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/crybaby.jpg

Well, obviously I'm willing to do anything needed (barring violence).
Without violence, are we really an army?

Some excellent input is happening! Yay!

I think a few of us have the same 'not quite sure what bothers me, but it bothers me' feeling about the letter groups. And asking people to align themselves to one group or the other is going to be problematic for some. A big question that is coming up is how much input straights should have. I think one of the assumptions here is that straights are going to be working from a straight agenda. I think we need to step back from that assumption. I belong in the B group, but I'm working from the premise that I would be more focused on T issues. Our orientation need not limit our involvement.

Without violence, are we really an army?

Sure, we're like the LGBT version of the Salvation army.

Without the dogma.
And the feeding of the poor.
And the bands. (but who can tell what the future might bring?)

But aside from that, we're identical. and they call themselves an army.

Without violence, are we really an army?

Of course. Depends on how you define "Army", though.

Some excellent input is happening! Yay!

I think a few of us have the same 'not quite sure what bothers me, but it bothers me' feeling about the letter groups. And asking people to align themselves to one group or the other is going to be problematic for some. A big question that is coming up is how much input straights should have. I think one of the assumptions here is that straights are going to be working from a straight agenda. I think we need to step back from that assumption. I belong in the B group, but I'm working from the premise that I would be more focused on T issues. Our orientation need not limit our involvement.

I think another assumption that MIGHT be made is that somehow a straight agenda... if there is one.. is a negative thing. After all, surely a group focused on promotion of equality would find it advantageous to ensure that even groups not technically represented have their views heard? I find it analogous to allowing men in feminist groups, really. I also feel that if the letter thing does go through, that people should be allowed to choose which letter they would technically be a member of. If that wasn't the plan already.

Sure, we're like the LGBT version of the Salvation army.

Without the dogma.
And the feeding of the poor.
And the bands. (but who can tell what the future might bring?)

But aside from that, we're identical. and they call themselves an army.

but...but we have AK-47 (http://airborn.webz.cz/img/ak-47.jpg) s,do the salvation army have AKs?

A big question that is coming up is how much input straights should have

I personally don't think we(straights) need that much input,after all we aren't directly affected by any LGBT issues.maybe we should be represented in some way,as much to fend off cries of 'how can you be for equal rights if you exclude straights?'Maybe we could join up with one of the letters in this LGBTM council,if one will have us :p .perhaps B or T?

I personally don't think we(straights) need that much input,after all we aren't directly affected by any LGBT issues.

Tell that to the straight parents of a gay child.

Tell that to the straight parents of a gay child.

good point,didn't think of that.well lets say less affected then shall we?

Let's come at this from another side. Right now, we're just a bunch of people, interested in LGBT issues either because we identify with the group, or support it. We have a wide range of political beliefs, social backgrounds, and experiences. We are not united in the way that many groups are...along a political ideology. One leader could not possibly represent our diversity.

We can group together and work on specific projects, but if we really want to work as a group, we need some sort of vision to guide us. A goal we strive to achieve. We can not work with any sort of cohesion unless we organise ourselves in some manner, to bring disparate groups together. Clearly, we also need a built-in method of mediating disputes.

Organising along the lines of sex, gender or sexuality is too limiting. The Letter Council seems less ideal the more I think about it. Finding a mediator within our own group seems impossible. All sides in a dispute need to feel that the person mediating the dispute is impartial.

We want to avoid nepotism. I for one would like to avoid elections, campaigns, and other popularity contests. Certain jobs need to be assigned, and taken up. I think people willing to do those jobs should be allowed, unless there are any strong, rational arguments against them holding that particular position.

Positions that need to be filled:

Keeping membership updated: (title?) This person would maintain a thread where members would report on projects being worked on, on behalf of the group. Committees, or Action Groups could agree to give a summary of what's going on in this thread. If a vote on an issue is requested, this person would be the one to TG all members to let them know when, and where.

Vision Statement and Goal Committee: We should really get a group of people together temporarily to devise a vision statement, or set of goals, then bring it back to the membership for acceptance or revision.

Mediator: We should choose someone we would like to approach to be our mediator. Cat Tribe has been suggested, but not contacted. Other candidates are of course possible...it doesn't mean they'll have the time to do it, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Mediation Committee: We need people to organise temporarily to come up with a method of mediation if conflicts arise. Before we do that, we'll need to have a vision statement, or set of goals (somewhat like a constitution) to go by in order to help people resolve conflicts.

Those seem like the most important roles we need filled right now. The Vision Statement and Goal Committee could also discuss leadership issues I suppose...the method in which the LGBT Army wishes to organised? Just some thoughts.

I personally don't think we(straights) need that much input,after all we aren't directly affected by any LGBT issues
Not necessarily true. As I said...I belong in the B group more than in the straight group...but I am more affected by T issues, via my brother than I am by B issues. And many straights want to show their support because of direct contact with prejudice towards family or friends who are in the LGBT group.

I think there is a fear that anti-LGBTism is going to sneak in with some of the 'straights'. But we need to make sure that prejudice against any group is confined...regardless of the bigot's sexuality, gender, or sex.

Somebody with more energy than me could set up an invisionfree forum for discussing all that we need to discuss, I'm sure the mods probably don't want NS General littered with LGBT Army threads.

Not necessarily true. As I said...I belong in the B group more than in the straight group...but I am more affected by T issues, via my brother than I am by B issues. And many straights want to show their support because of direct contact with prejudice towards family or friends who are in the LGBT group.
hadn't thought of that either.i personally dont have any LGBT family,i do have a gay friend(funny guy,wats to turn me gay :p ),but i got to know him after i joined here intiially.


I think there is a fear that anti-LGBTism is going to sneak in with some of the 'straights'. But we need to make sure that prejudice against any group is confined...regardless of the bigot's sexuality, gender, or sex.


well that is an almost understandable viewpoint,considering all the people who discriminate against LGB people are straight.not sure if thats true about TG people.
That why i was suggesting we do give a voice to the straight members of the group,but it might make things difficult putting them on the coucil-thingy,as that would make 6,unless the mediator is removed.perhaps there could be a mediator,but one who doesnt have a vote,one who is there only to mediate?that would eliminate internal squabling about one group having 2 votes,and the less bickering inside the better

Could there be a General Membership? I mean for people who know that they aren't straight, but haven't sorted out their orientation yet or who have multiple issues they are dealing with? Then they could participate in action groups and choose a letter group later? I'm not exactly sure how that would work out...I sort of thought of just now - The General Membership might also be a good place for the straight people.

Could there be a General Membership? I mean for people who know that they aren't straight, but haven't sorted out their orientation yet or who have multiple issues they are dealing with? Then they could participate in action groups and choose a letter group later? I'm not exactly sure how that would work out...I sort of thought of just now - The General Membership might also be a good place for the straight people.


i thought we had switched the letter thing to whatever group you want to work with/support/whatever.like how sinuhue is B but wants to work on T issues

I would have a serious concern about a group setup that denies an equal voice to any of its members because of their sexual orientation or because of the issues they choose to work on. I've known straight people whose knowledge of and passion about LGBT issues rivals my own, and I've known gays (and for the sake of simplicity only, I'm using that to mean anyone in the alphabet soup that's come to denote our community) who just didn't give a damn.

Based on my experiences, I might want to spend time working with straights on whatever they feel should be their role in this group. I still find the presence of straight allies to gay rights causes to be an important factor in our eventual ascention to equality that continually gets overlooked.

That doesn't mean I won't work with 'G' issues or 'B' issues, but if there is a 'S' for straight, don't be surprised to see me paying more attention or as much attention there.

That doesn't mean I won't work with 'G' issues or 'B' issues, but if there is a 'S' for straight, don't be surprised to see me paying more attention or as much attention there.
I like 'S' for support. :)

I agree...but should they have a say on the council? They could be part of the membership, but not necessarily be represented on the council...hmmm...that's problematic, isn't it? Do we need to add an 'S' to the LGBT?

LGBTS?

I don't really feel that works...

Actually, if you make it LGBTS it becomes a uniter instead of a divider. If your goal is to fight against those that would oppress LGBT then don't you think that goal is furthered by not being guilty of divisiveness yourselves? Also, if you change it to LGBTS, I'm in, but I want it put in the bylaws that not all well-dressed attractive single men are gay because I'm tired of explaining that to people and it always comes off as I'm offended at being considered gay rather than at the misrepresentation.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with LGBT & S. Again, it's divisive. It's suggestive that just because we happen to be more accepted (which I'll admit is no small thing) that means we are somehow different and have no reason to be interested in fair and equal treatment for all. What feminism was instead called "Feminism & their male supporters"? What if someone was suggesting L & GBTS? LGBTS should be sufficiently inclusive and represents the harmony I hope you are interested in.

Some excellent input is happening! Yay!

I think a few of us have the same 'not quite sure what bothers me, but it bothers me' feeling about the letter groups. And asking people to align themselves to one group or the other is going to be problematic for some. A big question that is coming up is how much input straights should have. I think one of the assumptions here is that straights are going to be working from a straight agenda. I think we need to step back from that assumption. I belong in the B group, but I'm working from the premise that I would be more focused on T issues. Our orientation need not limit our involvement.

Actually, if orientation limits our involvement or focus then we are all guilty of the same type of problems that you are trying to fix, ignorance and intoleration. I think it necessary to respect the needs and views of everyone who comes to the table looking to make things equal and fair regardless of orientation. Particularly, I think we should be careful not to fault the members of any group simply because their viewpoint is limited to that of a member of that group. For example, I can't pretend to know what it's like to be gay any more than Sinuhue can pretend to know what it's like to be male.

I am in favour of the elected representatives model.

Actually, if you make it LGBTS it becomes a uniter instead of a divider. If your goal is to fight against those that would oppress LGBT then don't you think that goal is furthered by not being guilty of divisiveness yourselves? Also, if you change it to LGBTS, I'm in, but I want it put in the bylaws that not all well-dressed attractive single men are gay because I'm tired of explaining that to people and it always comes off as I'm offended at being considered gay rather than at the misrepresentation.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with LGBT & S. Again, it's divisive. It's suggestive that just because we happen to be more accepted (which I'll admit is no small thing) that means we are somehow different and have no reason to be interested in fair and equal treatment for all. What feminism was instead called "Feminism & their male supporters"? What if someone was suggesting L & GBTS? LGBTS should be sufficiently inclusive and represents the harmony I hope you are interested in.

I do see what you are saying... but I thought that the flow of saying it out loud worked better with the "and", not that it was an afterthought to include S. Either way is fine by me.

I do, however, like the idea of S being "supporter" not "straight". That can encompass everyone who doesn't feel they fit necessarily in one of the other letter groups, but acknowledges that we are all on the same team.

I do see what you are saying... but I thought that the flow of saying it out loud worked better with the "and", not that it was an afterthought to include S. Either way is fine by me.

I do, however, like the idea of S being "supporter" not "straight". That can encompass everyone who doesn't feel they fit necessarily in one of the other letter groups, but acknowledges that we are all on the same team.

So what is it about the group straight or heterosexual that makes them not to be supported or represented? Are we not all interested in equality? Am I being judged as be unworthy of direct representation as a group because of my orientation? Isn't this the problem we're addressing?

This gels with my beliefs...rather than 'a leader'...a council that must build consensus within their own 'groups' to arrive at a position, they would then bring that position into the LGBT council. Sumamba suggested an odd number in case of ties, and mention was made of Cat Tribe as being universally respected (though Universally Respected is probably a title that will never be unanimously agreed upon:)).

What do people think about organising around the LGBT groups? I think a lot of us just want to get going, and need some sort of structure in order to do that. Remember...nothing is set in stone. This organisation can be reworked if we find it doesn't really suit our needs.

I'd like to see the 'tie-breaker', if it be Cat Tribe, or someone else, as not a permanent member of the council, but rather a Mediator in cases where consensus or agreement is impossible. Their job would not be just to unilaterally take a side (so not really a tie-breaker)...but to try to get the sides to work out a compromise. If the sides remain deadlocked, I don't think the Mediator should be able to decide one way or another (otherwise, we risk losing trust in the Mediator), but rather the issue should be taken back to the group as a whole and voted upon anonymously (if possible).*

This is how I'm kind of seeing the suggestions playing out:

Army council: Made up of representatives of each letter, and a Mediator*
( ( ( ( (
L G B T M

Letter reps would be decided upon by members of that group. (Do we want to go with the title Letter Rep?:)) Letter reps should also be able to step down, or be removed by a vote of non-confidence. I don't think we need a timeframe for rep changes, because frankly, involvement in this group is purely voluntary, and what time you are able to devote to it is going to depend on your RL schedule. Ideally, a rep would not be someone who can not devote the time necessary to the group (time necessary being a personal judgement call).

Then, we would have Action Reps. People working together (regardless what 'letter' they belong to) on a particular project (say, web design for example) need to report back to the group as a whole with updates, requests for help, whatever. The Action Groups would probably be doing the bulk of the actual work...and may or may not be made up of the same Letters. The Letter groups would allow people with similar backgrounds (used here in a very loose sense) to discuss certain issues, maybe make suggestions to the Action Groups for possible projects, provide information to the Action Groups, or work as Action Groups themselves on specific issues. Confused yet?

So say you were in the B Letter Group. You are also part of the Web-Design Action Group. That Action Group is designing a Logo. You bring the logo back to the B Letter Group and ask for feedback. The B Letter Group decides as a whole that the logo does not adequately represent them...the B looks more like a set of tits, say, than a B:). You can go back to the Action Group and give B Letter Group's feedback.

Now say the Action Group doesn't change the logo, despite repeated requests and suggestions. I think at this point the Letter Council should be called. A rep from each Letter Group would get together, and discuss the issue. The Rep from the Action Group in question could be asked to explain from the Action Group's point of view. A discussion would ensue, and a ruling reached by the Letter Council. If consensus can not be reached, we'd call in the Mediator. If mediation didn't work, or if a Letter Rep receives a vote of non-confidence from their Letter Group for their position, we'd take the issue to a whole-group vote.

What do the rest of you think? Complicated enough for you? It isn't actually...I just suck at being succinct:).
I don't really see why someone from, let's say, the T-group, has to take a logo to a seperate location to show it to the T's, ask for their opinion and then go back to the Action group, while a G-rep, B-rep and L-rep are doing the same. Why not have a logo-rep who shows it to the entire group?
I think we should be just one big group of people who fight for LGBT issues. I didn't sign up cause I'm gay, I signed up cause I want to do something about discimination against people based on their sexuality, which I happen to care about because I am gay. If we want representatives for other purposes, such as answering questions from people outside this organisation, then I think it's a good idea to have one for each letter, but not between ourselves.

The one thing that I think is really important, is that we decide as soon as possible what our goals are and how we are going to achieve them. Maybe we should write a manifesto?

Also, a place to "meet" outside of NationStates might be a good idea. That way we don't clutter up the forum with our own little organisaton. I read something about creating a forum elsewhere, but I don't know how to do it. I'll look into it though.

Great ideas about problem-solving and the mediator by the way.

EDIT: That last bit about the logo is much easier solved when we don't divide ourselves; Action Group makes logo -> AG presents logo to LGBTS -> LGBTS vote -> AG improves logo -> tada!

Let's come at this from another side. Right now, we're just a bunch of people, interested in LGBT issues either because we identify with the group, or support it. We have a wide range of political beliefs, social backgrounds, and experiences. We are not united in the way that many groups are...along a political ideology. One leader could not possibly represent our diversity.

We can group together and work on specific projects, but if we really want to work as a group, we need some sort of vision to guide us. A goal we strive to achieve. We can not work with any sort of cohesion unless we organise ourselves in some manner, to bring disparate groups together. Clearly, we also need a built-in method of mediating disputes.

Organising along the lines of sex, gender or sexuality is too limiting. The Letter Council seems less ideal the more I think about it. Finding a mediator within our own group seems impossible. All sides in a dispute need to feel that the person mediating the dispute is impartial.

We want to avoid nepotism. I for one would like to avoid elections, campaigns, and other popularity contests. Certain jobs need to be assigned, and taken up. I think people willing to do those jobs should be allowed, unless there are any strong, rational arguments against them holding that particular position.

Positions that need to be filled:

Keeping membership updated: (title?) This person would maintain a thread where members would report on projects being worked on, on behalf of the group. Committees, or Action Groups could agree to give a summary of what's going on in this thread. If a vote on an issue is requested, this person would be the one to TG all members to let them know when, and where.

Vision Statement and Goal Committee: We should really get a group of people together temporarily to devise a vision statement, or set of goals, then bring it back to the membership for acceptance or revision.

Mediator: We should choose someone we would like to approach to be our mediator. Cat Tribe has been suggested, but not contacted. Other candidates are of course possible...it doesn't mean they'll have the time to do it, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Mediation Committee: We need people to organise temporarily to come up with a method of mediation if conflicts arise. Before we do that, we'll need to have a vision statement, or set of goals (somewhat like a constitution) to go by in order to help people resolve conflicts.

Those seem like the most important roles we need filled right now. The Vision Statement and Goal Committee could also discuss leadership issues I suppose...the method in which the LGBT Army wishes to organised? Just some thoughts.
I like this idea, and would suggest one more--a public action committee, or something like that, a group that would be on the lookout for situations that require a public response and would coordinate that response with members of the group. And I'm talking about a response outside the bounds of this forum--real world action: letter writing, phone calling, possibly even protest if there's a protest local to the individual members. I don't have the time to head something like that up, but I can certainly lend my abilities in that way.

Okay, I've looked into the forum thing and found InvisionFree (http://invisionfree.com) where you can set up a forum. I'll set one up there, called LGBT_Army, as soon as I get some response that this is a good idea.

Well, I've read all the arguments. I'll just some up my position on them quickly... I'm in favor of the LGBTS. I think we ought to do groups by project, not by letters because that's just devisive within the LGBT community itself. A moderator is a great idea, in case any disagreements arise. Anyway, all in all I think this is a great idea, and I'm really hoping it will meet my expectations.

I'm also in favour of LGBTS with the S standing for Supporters or Supportive.

Jocabia's point is very much the one I'm trying to make about uniting everyone who is supportive of equal rights. LGBT&S doesn't make me too comfortable.

I'm also in favour of LGBTS with the S standing for Supporters or Supportive.

Jocabia's point is very much the one I'm trying to make about uniting everyone who is supportive of equal rights. LGBT&S doesn't make me too comfortable.

I think LGBTS says we care more about treating everyone of every sexuality fairly and you should not be treated as less important regardless of your sexuality. Though, I still thing S should be straight. To deliberately leave out a major type of sexuality is to suggest it is less important simply because it is more accepted. You can't support equality by endorsing unequal treatment.

great suggestions peeps, keep em coming. Sorry I am not around much lately - I am having personal issues in RL and am so busy at work and home I can only jump on for a few minutes at a time.

I'm liking the discussion taking palce right now and hope it continues.

I would be okay with a Mediator type role, given my background as a NS mod, I think that gives me some experience in this area. I also don't side really with anyone person or "group" as much as I think there is a common goal. Which is another point I wanted to add, I agree with the people saying that we should not per se break off into sub-categories based on you being LGBT, it should be one mission statement so to speak. One common goal. The equal rights of all is the goal to my mind, regardless of which "category" people wish to put themselves or others into.

That being said, I would be happy to help out where needed and I certainly hope the fighting can stop. We're all on the same side here folks! Keep that in mind.

Okay, I've looked into the forum thing and found InvisionFree (http://invisionfree.com) where you can set up a forum. I'll set one up there, called LGBT_Army, as soon as I get some response that this is a good idea.

thats a good idea,best we dont clog the forum unnecessarily.

regarding invisionfree - go for it!

I like the chart.

I like what I am reading so far and I agree with considering InvisionFree.

Okay then, I'll set up the invisionfree forum.

Only problem: should I call it LGBT_Army or LGBTS_Army?

...

I vote LGTBS

Me too, I think two is enough votes, right? ;)

Me too, I think two is enough votes, right? ;)

ditto.

Okay people, we now have an Invisionfree forum.

The URL is http://s13.invisionfree.com/LGTBS_Army/
but you can also use this link (http://s13.invisionfree.com/LGTBS_Army/) .

You haven't actually put any forums in it :p

You haven't actually put any forums in it :p
I know. I'm rather silly with this kind of thing.

How 'bout I make you moderator or something and you come to help me?

I know. I'm rather silly with this kind of thing.

How 'bout I make you moderator or something and you come to help me?
If you want, but you would need to make me an administrator if you want me to set up forums.

If you want, but you would need to make me an administrator if you want me to set up forums.
So has it been done.

I'd sort of like to get started on what I had planned for my part in this army, but I don't want to do it without some sort of okay from the rest of you. I'm not asking permission to start threads in general, just wondering if it would be cool if, when I start threads calling for action on LGBT issues, I put some sort of "Missive from the LGBT Army" thingy on them, sort of a call to action on behalf of the group.

While the ORGANIZATIONAL structure is adequate, I shudder to think that my voice might be represented by an elected council. It has been my experience that those LEAST likely to be effective community representatives are MOST likely to vie for the positions.
Such is politics.

I would like to suggest a rotating appointment. Jury duty if you will. With each JUROR serving an appointed but finite length of service. Thus each 'Letter' of representation (LGBT) is always chaired by x-number of persons, say a few for each letter, whose investments and perspectives are randomly collected, and therefore more representative of the real community.

I also strongly shy away from representative leadership. I'd rather let us all have the freedom of initiative, and any sort of 'leadership' would be for conflict resolution rather than policy-making.

Yah, the thing of it is, if you want to be an effective force, you all will have to put your differences aside and fight on a "popular front". You should take your victories and then divide the spoils, not vice versa. Otherwise you will just become a laughing stock.

As I said, though, it's not really my place to comment, because frankly what you do, or do not do, with your "naughty bits", is of no concern of mine.

(And in the interest of full disclosure, my brother is gay; yes, I am not happy with that, because if I said I was it would be a lie. Yes I still love him anyway. And I think that there are a lot of poseurs on this forum who want gay "cool" who frankly have never addressed this issue. But I won't join your army).
I concur. We as LGBT people need to unite. For too long we have let petty differences seperate us, and the hetero world eats that up. The far right and religious zealots count on us to bicker amongst ourselves. In this way they keep us under their thumb.

As for your brother Lacadaemon. You loved him before you knew he was gay, right? He's still that same person. :)

While the ORGANIZATIONAL structure is adequate, I shudder to think that my voice might be represented by an elected council. It has been my experience that those LEAST likely to be effective community representatives are MOST likely to vie for the positions.
Such is politics.

I would like to suggest a rotating appointment. Jury duty if you will. With each JUROR serving an appointed but finite length of service. Thus each 'Letter' of representation (LGBT) is always chaired by x-number of persons, say a few for each letter, whose investments and perspectives are randomly collected, and therefore more representative of the real community.

I think I like that idea, too...as it fosters more involvement by more people, and does not allow the group to be dominated by extremists of any variety. Generally, it is the extremists that vie for the power positions.

Now, they should have a voice, and this way they would...but they would not dominate the conversation, or the direction of the group.

That said, it might be a good idea to find out where each of us self-identifies, so that we can each be properly representative of the group with which we self-identify. In my case, that would be T.

I concur. We as LGBT people need to unite. For too long we have let petty differences seperate us, and the hetero world eats that up. The far right and religious zealots count on us to bicker amongst ourselves. In this way they keep us under their thumb.

Yep. And it's usually a result of GLB's selling the T's down the river to be sacrifical lambs on the altar of GLB-only rights...as if that were somehow more "palatable" to American legislators. God, it makes me so freaking mad I could just SPIT.

Needless to say, I have my own issues, and long bitter history with just such infighting, and I'm going to be the first to jump all over anyone who even gives the appearance of selling out T's. HRC is a prime example of a group that gives all the right lip-service and PR to the T, but without really doing jack-shit for us...and often selling us out behind closed doors.

I still refuse, to this day, to put one of those "=" stickers on my car, because I know HRC doesn't really believe in equality. They say they do, but their actions regarding T people proves otherwise.

NGLTF is a far better organization in terms of T-inclusiveness. But I am natuarally suspicious of the motives of GLB people...always have been, because my experience has always been that they were all-too-willing to sell us T's down the river if they thought they could gain something by doing so.

Now...all that said, I believe we need to focus on a larger area than we have been discussing...something I like to call GLTBIAQ...Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex, Allies, and Questioning.

Allies, of course, covers our straight friends...and of course friends and family of the other letters. Questioning is self-explanatory, and most have very little knowledge of Intersex.

Now, someone who would be giving advice to Questioning folks would do well to be giving the kind of advice that does not push the questioning individual in any one direction, but reaffirms their right to grow, learn, and explore for themselves what best works...and to affirm them in their journey of self-exploration.

We also should have someone...preferably closer in peer age...for Youth, because we will have youth inquiries, I imagine.

And it should be noted that over 50% of teen suicides can be directly linked to issues surrounding sexual orientation and/or gender identity.

I think it would be better if we included the straights too...but it looks like they dont care. Whatever. That mediator idea is interesting but I think it might be hard to agree on "universally respected". Anyway I am bisexual and would love to help however I can.

What about 6 letters and a mediator? in addition to GLBT aslo have a group for straight and one for questioning/other and then a "universally respected" mediator

I like the jury duty idea

I like the idea of a youth section, after all that is the time when most GLBTI's find their true selves, I'ld like to be involved in that particuly. I'm 17 and have gone from S to T via G and B and so feel I could relate to a lot of young GLBTIs.

But i have a resolution that I REALLY want to get passed.

And its related to GLBT issue. But i need the help of this "army."
I have a list of delegates who supported my previous proposal, The transgender equality act, which was narrowly defeated subsquently.
IF anyone is interested in starting a telegram campaign, please feel free to do so.

Gender Freedom Law
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.


Category: Human Rights
Strength: Strong
Proposed by: Agnostic Deeishpeople

Description:
Description: We, the United Nations, recognize the basic human rights of all individuals. This resolution seeks to reduce Gender Identity/Expression Discrimination in order to give transgender people and others their chance to live dignified lives.

Believing that human right is rooted in the belief of human dignity; everyone deserves to be treated with dignity regardless of their gender identity and/or expression.


Defining Gender Identity as a person’s innate sense of self -sex; gender expression is the external presentation of a person’s gender.

Noting that Gender Identity/Expression Discrimination affect not only transgender individuals.

Recognizes that Gender Dysphoria, also known as Gender Identity Disorder, is a recognized psychological condition that can be diagnosed by Mental Health Professionals


Convinced than people who are diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria should have the right to seek for different types of treatment with the approval of a mental health professional.

Deeply disturbed that Gender Identity or Expression discrimination has taken and destroyed many lives.

Be it resolved that that the following articles be recognized by the United Nations.

Article 1: Everyone has the legal right to express their genders freely without unreasonable interference from the state.

Article 2:

1.) Gender Identity and/or Expression alone are not grounds for any form of discrimination in the work place unless such identity/expression are clearly proven to preclude satisfactory performance of required duties; Discrimination includes, but is not limited to, unequal treatment in hiring, training, promotion and termination, be the source from other employees or employer(s).

2) Declares that this Article does not apply to:

A.) Situations where Employers wish to establish sex specific dress codes or bathrooms at work.

B.) Religious Institutions. (Except in their For-Profit activities)

C.) Non-Profit organizations. (Except in U.N countries where For-Profit organizations do not exist or are an anomaly)

Article 3:

A.) The U.N is neutral on the subject of sex reassignment treatments; however, sex reassignment treatments must be legal options available to people diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria by mental health professionals.

B.) U.N countries reserve the right to determine the source of funding for sex reassignment treatments.

C.) Health insurance companies do not have to include coverage for sex reassignment treatments but must not discriminate people simply because of their gender identity and/or expression.

D.)Gender identity and/or Expression alone are not justifiable grounds for hospitals and health care providers to refuse appropriate medical treatments to patients whose lives are at immediate risk.

Article 4: Any person who had undergone a Sex Reassignment Surgery must be allowed to change his or her legal sex. The issue of whether to grant non post-operative transsexuals or others the right to change their legal sex will be for individual nation to decide.


Article 5:

Urges:

A.) Member nations to consider putting pre operative transsexuals inmates
in isolated cells if their personal safety are in danger.

B.) Member nations to accommodate gender diversity if they haven’t already.

Article 6: If any member nation has rights and protections that go beyond those enlisted in this resolution, the Gender Freedom Law will not remove them.

I just submitted this proposal again.


You can view it here.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/13094/page=UN_proposal/start=40


I think this GLBT army is a great idea. As a member, I think we should invest time to pass this resolution simply because the *T* in GLBT is often ignored. And as of yet, i dont think theres any U.N resolution that specifically secure the right of transgendered people. This resolution also protects everyone, not just transgendered btw.


Here are the list of U.N delegates that approved my "Transgender Equality act." The first thing we need to do is to contact all those U.N delegates. This will not be enough, but its a start. I will not be free to do this all by myself.

What i want to write to the U.N delegate in my TG campaign:

I want to tell them why this resolution is important: Many transgender people and gender non conforming people are unemployed and have no access to health care and employment because of discrimination. This resolution will provide basic rights to transgender people by making sure that they can access basic , life saving, facilities like health care and employment. Many lives have been destroyed or taken because of the rampant discrimination against transgender. We CANNOT tolerate this.

I think we should use this template and also, you should feel free to write your own if you have any other ideas.


(Newsclomerian Nations, Brocklandia, Sdewen, Knakworst, The Takeda, Newcastle Seperate, Kickassonia, McGranaghanataria, Gaiah, The Philosophes, Cerebrista, Drunken Butterfly, Emerald Phoenix, Arthuria-Elizabetia, Sharomaville, Hanaukyo, Punrovia, West Dorsetshire, Enduria, DragonSpeartopia, Free Radicals of Mu-Mu, Enn, Aquarian Arcadia, Torregal, Basilicata Potenza, Vathras, Irinistan, Corona Drinkers, Morvonia, Skyscraper Island, Republic of Freedonia, Moroboshi, Rolling Stone, Olworth, Republic of Peoples, Kao-nohio-ka-la, Mikeswill, Josquinia,
Anteitam, Funkdunk, Kapellen, InfoSoc, Nelvaan, Renmar, Koalatea, Poppuli, Binhaii, Usagiuchi, Xanthal, Freedom in Tibet, Eve the First, JimiHendrixia, Green Hats, Kleinekatzen, Newtron, Lunaria Mirandia, The Chinese Republics, Richard2008, Freedmark, Of Cascadia, Leonstein, Conks rules, Garlie, Navel lint pickers, Shoot_The_Moon, Darth Mall, Bettia, Putrid Ruffians, Small Pox, LenninMarx, The Reality Bug, The Zeph, Hyrulian Nations, YaAllWantASingle, Kilobugya, Biophysics, Suuropolis, SunnyDayRealEstate, Jamesburgh, Lyonors, Emochny, Calisan, CTerryland, Jodokia, Fleshliness, Pooplaracha, The Grand Mystic, Starps, The Talisman,Tambien, Italia Major, Dizziness, Lower Sirion, Universal Divinity, Howard Wong, Kypseli, Misidian, Avriga, Pine Lake, Emory, Liberialand, United Necromancers, Jessica Noel, Finbergia, Votswana, I Still Like Oranges, Daqurra, Skrelnek, Kadotus, FWEDD, Drunk Lazy Buggers, -Free Luna-, Big Blair, Renkotoa, Sipledome, Neo-Homotopia, Novaya Zemlaya, Sphinx the Great, Kilmeston, Ballyboughal Barfieldslande, Ryme, Anagastes, Yeldan UN Mission, Morgazm, Jolaba, Strike Freedom, SouthFerns, Ishkibible, Moborith, Belle_of_the_ball, Erisian Diskordia, Caseylvania, The Fro Royal Family, Geekopolous, Cunning Plan, Zomnkeria, Bongoswana, Manion, North Koster, Crappymania, Gunfreak, New Koalastan, Zealotos, Fatus Maximus, Maineiacs, Jimoria, Hashishama, The Faery Goddess, The United Animals, Purpleation, DieGrunenland, Vincimus, Tempest Dalaniver, Windleheim, Malibu Miffy, Atlantitania, KnarfWorld, Individualisticismness, United Swines, Natural Nerds,
The Amazingly Crooked, Bunnydonia, Herbach, Algorab, Civilized Nations, Geektoria, Ness Snorlaxia, Froggilicious, Peachkissers, Jello Biafra, Machiaevellia, Metasequoia, Sethony, English Humour, Ruins of Arkngthand, Boxemia, New Orkland, Karmic Arcadia, Swadtonia, Gerolsteiner, Tarn-Aeluin, Tir, Aztec National League, Crandberry Bann, Dwars, True-wisdom, Quimp, Kinoss, Two Forks,
Catronia Marks, Doitzel, Pharan, Reblochonia, Arme De Merica, Sinsvyka, Dldurkee, Bladder Land, Luna Amore, The Inner Universe, SEO Kingdom, Silentium 2nd, Shifter89, Aldonin, Monty Pythonism, Love and esterel, Tuatha de Danann1, New Modern Egypt, Figue, Das freie Land, Blah Meh To Death, Findan, Ali_Dew, Seattletonia, Jagraphess, Luthien Arfeiniel, Naravostia, Mushroomyness, Haradin, Impermeable Vinculum, United Twindom, Brfitopia, Swan nation, Turanga Nui A Kiwa, Bordoria, The third flamingo, Gaelen, Weightshire, Tennegus, Short Welsh People, Betas, Harrissy, Velenora, Anarchy Ville, Microdell, Danitoria, Giloland, Rekoo, Nordur, Cardinal Bob, Bunny Pancake, Blamange, Mattix, Bulgarian Legion, New Rootopia, Jingomen, Crazyvichistan, Beta Centaury, Rioki, Binzer, New Shaftshire, Gymnophobia, FatTron, New Cyberia, Latouria, Canabis Smokers, Lunatic Retard Robots, Skandango, Itlaian Alps, Iustinia, The Vague and Grand,

Democratic Paradise, Ragnarok112233, The PurpleGuard, Wazzaville, Arglemeton, Bellaben, Mi Mi Wu, Charleno, LordGregLand, Desartha, Jamsandwich, Silvarian, Conantopia, Garnet Scars, Wondering Beavers, Spikealation, The Jedi Master Yoda, Lybo, Klashonite, United States of Mars, Jjuulliiaann, SovietRepublicofRussia, BrcruEmpire, Philanchez, Snello, Proteani, Armager, Vanilla Cake, Durgin, Maciavely, The real DragonFyre, Capita1iZm, Kavenna, Kiesland, Cannabes, The Golden Simatar, Mythila, Spatopia)

bump

I just submitted this proposal again.


You can view it here.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/13094/page=UN_proposal/start=40


I think this GLBT army is a great idea. As a member, I think we should invest time to pass this resolution simply because the *T* in GLBT is often ignored. And as of yet, i dont think theres any U.N resolution that specifically secure the right of transgendered people. This resolution also protects everyone, not just transgendered btw.


Here are the list of U.N delegates that approved my "Transgender Equality act." The first thing we need to do is to contact all those U.N delegates. This will not be enough, but its a start. I will not be free to do this all by myself.

What i want to write to the U.N delegate in my TG campaign:

I want to tell them why this resolution is important: Many transgender people and gender non conforming people are unemployed and have no access to health care and employment because of discrimination. This resolution will provide basic rights to transgender people by making sure that they can access basic , life saving, facilities like health care and employment. Many lives have been destroyed or taken because of the rampant discrimination against transgender. We CANNOT tolerate this.



Very much agreed. If anyone who reads this has never seen the HBO documentary "Southern Comfort," I recommend it. It is about the life...and death of Robert Eads...an FTM transsexual who died of ovarian cancer, because he was not able to find an oncologist willing to treat him for his cancer until it was too late...and it had everything to do with his transsexual status why over 20 oncologists refused Robert's case.

Incidentally, I knew Robert personally, and he was the epitome of a gentleman if ever I saw one! He should not have died. His is not the only case of a transgender person dying for lack of medical care.

Tyra Hunter, of Washington, DC, was involved in an automobile accident on Aug 7, 1995. She was a passenger in a car that was hit. The other car fled the scene. The paramedics arrived, and began to work on Tyra. When it became necessary for them to cut open Tyra's pants...and they discovered Tyra's male genitalia...eight fucking paramedics, as one, backed away from Tyra, and, instead of continuing life-saving treatment, began to make jokes about her...and mocked her...as she lay broken and bleeding and dying on the pavement! Paramedics eventually DID resume treatment, after onlookers SCREAMED at the EMT's to do their job.

Nevertheless, the EMT's continued to make jokes and laugh...and made such a scene on arrival to the hospital, that they EMT's were asked to leave! Tyra died at the hospital, about 4 hours later. It is believed Tyra might have lived, if she'd gotten adequate emergency care.

Tyra's mother eventually sued the city for wrongful death, and won a settlement on the case. But Tyra shouldn't have died, either.

And those are just two cases with which I'm intimately familiar with the details, and the persons involved. Both resulted in death for the T person...directly as a result of being denied medical treatment.

I concur. We as LGBT people need to unite. For too long we have let petty differences seperate us, and the hetero world eats that up. The far right and religious zealots count on us to bicker amongst ourselves. In this way they keep us under their thumb.

As for your brother Lacadaemon. You loved him before you knew he was gay, right? He's still that same person. :)

Hey, don't do that. Some small percentage LGBT people are perverts, i.e. child porn, molestation, rape, etc., but it would be absolutely wrong to pretend like all of them are. Some heteros are hateful idiots, but don't lump me in with them. 'The hetero world' is no more idealogical homogenous than the gay world or the transgender world, etc. When you paint us all with the same brush you are guilty of the same intolerance you are rallying against. Please try to be more considerate than that. This member of 'the hetero world' would prefer to see all of use unite against hate, bigotry and intolerance than to see any divide based on superficial difference such as gender, race, where you were born or what sexual preferences you were born with.

Hey, don't do that. Some small percentage LGBT people are perverts, i.e. child porn, molestation, rape, etc., but it would be absolutely wrong to pretend like all of them are. Some heteros are hateful idiots, but don't lump me in with them. 'The hetero world' is no more idealogical homogenous than the gay world or the transgender world, etc. When you paint us all with the same brush you are guilty of the same intolerance you are rallying against. Please try to be more considerate than that. This member of 'the hetero world' would prefer to see all of use unite against hate, bigotry and intolerance than to see any divide based on superficial difference such as gender, race, where you were born or what sexual preferences you were born with.

Then you are a member of "the hetero world" that I would be honored to consider an Ally.
You should understand many of us have been very shabbily treated by "the hetero world" and thus, have some very decided ideas about "the hetero world."

Take my case, for example. I am absolutely convinced that the only reason I cannot get a decent job is BECAUSE I am transsexual. No other reason, what soever.
I know from personal experience that, in rotten economic times...the "undesireables" are always the first thrown on the shit heap...and always the last to be taken off the shit heap again when economic times improve.

And just who are the "undesireables?" Well, I'd say most TS's were high on the list, after all we are definitely outside the norm, and many people have never encountered one of us outside Jerry Springer, and so we end up stereotyped as a result, and mainstream society thinks we are all freaks.

Blacks, of course, are high on the "undesireables" list...as are obvious GLB's...so, too are smokers and fat people.

Mainstream society has a way of treating it's "undesireables" in a particularly shitty manner. And those who get treated, long-term, in this shitty manner...well, we tend to devlop a pretty shitty attitude towards the ones who are treating us shitty.

Then you are a member of "the hetero world" that I would be honored to consider an Ally.
You should understand many of us have been very shabbily treated by "the hetero world" and thus, have some very decided ideas about "the hetero world."

Take my case, for example. I am absolutely convinced that the only reason I cannot get a decent job is BECAUSE I am transsexual. No other reason, what soever.
I know from personal experience that, in rotten economic times...the "undesireables" are always the first thrown on the shit heap...and always the last to be taken off the shit heap again when economic times improve.

And just who are the "undesireables?" Well, I'd say most TS's were high on the list, after all we are definitely outside the norm, and many people have never encountered one of us outside Jerry Springer, and so we end up stereotyped as a result, and mainstream society thinks we are all freaks.

Blacks, of course, are high on the "undesireables" list...as are obvious GLB's...so, too are smokers and fat people.

Mainstream society has a way of treating it's "undesireables" in a particularly shitty manner. And those who get treated, long-term, in this shitty manner...well, we tend to devlop a pretty shitty attitude towards the ones who are treating us shitty.

Yes, well, so long as your attitude is directed at those who actually treat you that way, I think it's appropriate. Remember that if you're the first TG that people have ever encountered that you are the first to have the unique opportunity of changing what they expect of a TG, an ambassador, if you will. Now if your response to them is unnecessarily hostile, you'll likely see a similar response, but if you allow them to see that you're unique and special just like people in every other group than maybe you can turn them from someone who would oppress you to someone willing to fight for you.

Yes, well, so long as your attitude is directed at those who actually treat you that way, I think it's appropriate. Remember that if you're the first TG that people have ever encountered that you are the first to have the unique opportunity of changing what they expect of a TG, an ambassador, if you will. Now if your response to them is unnecessarily hostile, you'll likely see a similar response, but if you allow them to see that you're unique and special just like people in every other group than maybe you can turn them from someone who would oppress you to someone willing to fight for you.

And why should I have to be that way? Why is it I have to fight against a preconcieved notion, and overcome that, in order to be accepted as even being a human being?

We do not judge all white people by Timothy McVeigh...but when a black man shoots a white man...ALL black men end up suspect...it is the same for any minority group. The white hetero majority always expects the absolute worst from us, and approach any encounter with us already expecting the worst! Why the hell should I have this obstacle to being judged individually placed in my path? You obviously have no experience with being judged collectively, and by the worst elements representative of your sub-group, rather than being judged individually.

And why should I have to be that way? Why is it I have to fight against a preconcieved notion, and overcome that, in order to be accepted as even being a human being?

We do not judge all white people by Timothy McVeigh...but when a black man shoots a white man...ALL black men end up suspect...it is the same for any minority group. The white hetero majority always expects the absolute worst from us, and approach any encounter with us already expecting the worst! Why the hell should I have this obstacle to being judged individually placed in my path? You obviously have no experience with being judged collectively, and by the worst elements representative of your sub-group, rather than being judged individually.

Why should you have to fight against a preconceived notion? You mean like I did when people on this thread attacked the way 'the hetero world' sees them? I suppose it would have been more appropriate to just freak out and attack you and everyone else who reacted that way rather than helping you see that not all heterosexuals are hateful and bigotted? I think it's to everyone's benefit to help people who are wrongly stereotyping see the error in doing so. You don't have to attempt to correct these stereotypes if you like, but they will persist if you don't make an effort to change them.

You made several stereotypical statements about white, male heterosexuals that are not true of the majority of that subgroup, but I'm certain it doesn't even both you that you did so. Then in the same breath complain when people do it to you. It is no more acceptable to do so as a minority as it is to do so to a minority. Painting people with different feelings, ideologies and hangups with the same brush because their sex, skin color and sexuality match is folly. I certainly hope you'll reconsider doing such things, because engaging in stereotyping while complaining about it is hypocracy.

Why should you have to fight against a preconceived notion? You mean like I did when people on this thread attacked the way 'the hetero world' sees them? I suppose it would have been more appropriate to just freak out and attack you and everyone else who reacted that way rather than helping you see that not all heterosexuals are hateful and bigotted? I think it's to everyone's benefit to help people who are wrongly stereotyping see the error in doing so. You don't have to attempt to correct these stereotypes if you like, but they will persist if you don't make an effort to change them.

You made several stereotypical statements about white, male heterosexuals that are not true of the majority of that subgroup, but I'm certain it doesn't even both you that you did so. Then in the same breath complain when people do it to you. It is no more acceptable to do so as a minority as it is to do so to a minority. Painting people with different feelings, ideologies and hangups with the same brush because their sex, skin color and sexuality match is folly. I certainly hope you'll reconsider doing such things, because engaging in stereotyping while complaining about it is hypocracy.


Ah, but see...there's the rub. I did it intentionally...to show you just what it feels like! doesn't feel so damn good when it's directed AT you, does it?

Now maybe you understand why some GLBT folks feel the way they do about straights. We have been shit on, had rocks thrown at us, been denied housing, medical care, jobs, and in some cases, even our very LIVES....just because we are who we are.

In my own case, I'm convinced that the only reason I am not being hired for jobs is because I am a transsexual. I look great on paper...I get calls for interviews quite frequently. But I never get a job offer! And I am convinced it is because they like what they see on paper...and as soon as they know they are dealing with a transsexual, their mind closes, and they decide then and there, that there is no way they are going to hire a "freak" like me.

We GLBT's have often been denied our humanity and human dignity by people in the straight world. It's natural we should be bitter.

Why don't you work towards making the straight world more accepting of people like us?

If you all stopped crapping on usso badly, I'm sure our attitudes would change, in time.

My own attitude right now, I'll admit, is pretty damn poor...as well yours would be if you had reason to believe you were the victim of unfair discrimination, and that someone was using non-bona-fide occupational qualifications as a justification for denying you the ability to earn a livelihood!

Ah, but see...there's the rub. I did it intentionally...to show you just what it feels like! doesn't feel so damn good when it's directed AT you, does it?

Now maybe you understand why some GLBT folks feel the way they do about straights. We have been shit on, had rocks thrown at us, been denied housing, medical care, jobs, and in some cases, even our very LIVES....just because we are who we are.

In my own case, I'm convinced that the only reason I am not being hired for jobs is because I am a transsexual. I look great on paper...I get calls for interviews quite frequently. But I never get a job offer! And I am convinced it is because they like what they see on paper...and as soon as they know they are dealing with a transsexual, their mind closes, and they decide then and there, that there is no way they are going to hire a "freak" like me.

We GLBT's have often been denied our humanity and human dignity by people in the straight world. It's natural we should be bitter.

Why don't you work towards making the straight world more accepting of people like us?

If you all stopped crapping on usso badly, I'm sure our attitudes would change, in time.

My own attitude right now, I'll admit, is pretty damn poor...as well yours would be if you had reason to believe you were the victim of unfair discrimination, and that someone was using non-bona-fide occupational qualifications as a justification for denying you the ability to earn a livelihood!

You think you've just exposed me to the first prejudice I've ever suffered? My whole life I've been judged by how I look. I look too young to do my job so clients openly send me home from a job before I start working. Even with the couple of scars on my face the assumption when people see me is that I've never known hardship and that I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. The assumption that I'm some kind of oppressor because I happen to have been born male, white and straight. I'm irrational, hypocritical or judgemental because I'm a Christian. I'm a heartless conservative when I don't approve of Clinton and a dirty commie liberal when I don't approve of Bush. I'm stupid because I'm a Marine because smart people join other services or just stay out altogether. I'm gay because I'm not masculine enough, too fit, too well-dressed, too sensitive. In my case, I don't have to be convinced because when you're a white male people are perfectly comfortable explaining their shallow reasons for prejudging you.

Yes, I know the reaction. Poor attractive, white, Christian, heterosexual male. It's a tough life, right?

Maybe you'd like better examples. How about being beaten because a group of men decide you're a skinhead because I've shaven my head to prepare for a mission where hair would get in the way? Does that suffice? How about getting hit with a bottle because you're the white kid in the wrong neighborhood even though you live there or having somebody rearrange your nose because they don't like people in the military?

Don't make assumptions, my friend. I haven't made any assumptions about you. I haven't subjected you to any stereotypes. It seems the only one stereotyping here is you. And yet, though you've made huge assumptions since you started addressing me in this thread, I've been patient and simply explained to you why those stereotypes and assumptions are wrong. I haven't attacked you or responded in kind. This in my opinion is the best way to show people they are wrong in making these assumptions about you (so long as there incorrect assumptions aren't in the form of physical attacks or incarceration). Freaking out and yelling at them confirms their fears, no matter how ridiculous those fears are. The solution to the problem of prejudice is education and we must make progress one person at a time at times.

And I do work to make those that would oppress you more accepting (I refuse to the term 'the straight world'). If you'd visit a few of the threads you'd see me do so. You calling all white males 'you guys' and calling all heterosexuals 'the straight world' doesn't help your case. All it does is widen the gap. It's counterproductive and the first place to make a change is inside your own heart. It's a tough sell when you're trying to get people to stop being so prejudiced while you're attacking them based on your own prejudices.

Why don't you work towards making the straight world more accepting of people like us?

If you all stopped crapping on usso badly, I'm sure our attitudes would change, in time.



Ummm, in regards to the first statement I bolded; not to inflame you any more than necessary, but what exactly do you suppose straight people who joined this army are trying to do?

If we all stopped crapping on you so badly?!!

Get. A. Grip. You are sniping at the wrong people. Save it for the 'heteros' who don't care if you live or die. We (the OTHER heteros) do, and that's why we're here.

Wow, I had no idea I was going to have to create justification for my participation here. That just seems wrong.

Ummm, in regards to the first statement I bolded; not to inflame you any more than necessary, but what exactly do you suppose straight people who joined this army are trying to do?

If we all stopped crapping on you so badly?!!

Get. A. Grip. You are sniping at the wrong people. Save it for the 'heteros' who don't care if you live or die. We (the OTHER heteros) do, and that's why we're here.

Wow, I had no idea I was going to have to create justification for my participation here. That just seems wrong.

Exactly my point. Plus, when intolerance is met with more intolerance both sides appear to be justified.

Well, so much for a 'structure' discussion. Perhaps a new thread or six is in order; that way, people can decide WHICH part of the discussion they would like to be most incensed, embarassed, or frustrated with.

As thread topics, might I recommend:

1) Why I know more about intolerance than everyone else.
2) Disfunctional Family: pretending everyone gets along in the LGTBetc household.
3) Pointing out problems, but offering no solutions. (i.e. Bitchfest 2005)
4) Finger pointing 101
5) Soapbox pulpits for beginners
6) GLBT Parliament, (or CONGRESS, if you prefer): Where eventually issues end up so muddied that no one knows what we're talking about any more.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's OPINION here, but if you have a bone to pick OPEN ANOTHER THREAD about it, so that the rest of us don't have to slog through some personal agenda.

Well, so much for a 'structure' discussion. Perhaps a new thread or six is in order; that way, people can decide WHICH part of the discussion they would like to be most incensed, embarassed, or frustrated with.

As thread topics, might I recommend:

1) Why I know more about intolerance than everyone else.
2) Disfunctional Family: pretending everyone gets along in the LGTBetc household.
3) Pointing out problems, but offering no solutions. (i.e. Bitchfest 2005)
4) Finger pointing 101
5) Soapbox pulpits for beginners
6) GLBT Parliament, (or CONGRESS, if you prefer): Where eventually issues end up so muddied that no one knows what we're talking about any more.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's OPINION here, but if you have a bone to pick OPEN ANOTHER THREAD about it, so that the rest of us don't have to slog through some personal agenda.

I think this is why a LGBTS Army forum is being created. It's obviously no simple issue. Everyone knows where we want to go, but to get there we have to get through millenia of hatred, bigotry and divisiveness that's been so effective that almost no one has managed to raise this type of effort in any meaningful way. I stand by my assertion that until this group becomes a unified team of people who sets aside ALL stereotyping and bigotry and works together toward furthering the cause of equality there will be no progress regardless of what type of government is created. Arguing about who's less oppressed, who's less tolerant and who's less represented is silly, but it's necessary for people to work out their issues, realize the folly of continuing to participate in divisive actions and come to this team with a renewed belief in the idea that furthering fair treatment for any group is a benefit to all groups and furthering maltreatment based on any superficial division damages all groups and the cause of equality in general. I can't think of a more important realization if you wish to keep this group from becoming just another radical 'fill_in_the_blank' group.

Blackmoore does have a point. We're getting away from the original point of the thread and allowing emotion to overrun our logic.

In terms of structure, I think we need to think much more loosely, in terms of committees and representatives and what not. I like the idea of Action Groups that have whatever members are interested in that issue working together. That action group can have a representative of their choosing to show/explain their work to the rest of the group.
In terms of actual leadership, there we have the big problem. From what I've seen so far, no one has actually stepped up and said they would like to help lead the group in terms of deciding the mission statement, long and short term goals and how to structure communication between action groups. We also have yet to choose a mediator so that when these discussions do get emotionally overheated they can go there.
The Invision Forums that got set up are not getting used enough; we can accomplish more there I think than here.

I think this is why a LGBTS Army forum is being created. It's obviously no simple issue. Everyone knows where we want to go, but to get there we have to get through millenia of hatred, bigotry and divisiveness that's been so effective that almost no one has managed to raise this type of effort in any meaningful way. I stand by my assertion that until this group becomes a unified team of people who sets aside ALL stereotyping and bigotry and works together toward furthering the cause of equality there will be no progress regardless of what type of government is created. Arguing about who's less oppressed, who's less tolerant and who's less represented is silly, but it's necessary for people to work out their issues, realize the folly of continuing to participate in divisive actions and come to this team with a renewed belief in the idea that furthering fair treatment for any group is a benefit to all groups and furthering maltreatment based on any superficial division damages all groups and the cause of equality in general. I can't think of a more important realization if you wish to keep this group from becoming just another radical 'fill_in_the_blank' group.


Bravo! I don't have anything to add to this; well said.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9713835&posted=1#post9713835

These are the types of things people should be speaking up against. The original title of the thread was 'my life is gay'. The author then goes on to defend his use of the word 'gay' to mean 'bad' because people who see it as a slur are just oversensitive. Now the title is trolling against anyone who found the original thread insensitive. This may seem like a small issue but it propogates the problem of intolerance.

The solution to the problem of prejudice is education and we must make progress one person at a time at times.

I don't have TIME for that approach!! Just how long do you think I can live unemployed, denied the ability to EARN a livelihood?!?!?

Ummm, in regards to the first statement I bolded; not to inflame you any more than necessary, but what exactly do you suppose straight people who joined this army are trying to do?

If we all stopped crapping on you so badly?!!

Get. A. Grip. You are sniping at the wrong people. Save it for the 'heteros' who don't care if you live or die. We (the OTHER heteros) do, and that's why we're here.

Wow, I had no idea I was going to have to create justification for my participation here. That just seems wrong.

Try going unemployed for a year and a half, fo no better reason than the fact that you're a transsexual, and then see how you feel, okay?

I don't have TIME for that approach!! Just how long do you think I can live unemployed, denied the ability to EARN a livelihood?!?!?

And how is hating the world working for you? Has it gotten you a job? Don't you think you'd do better by creating allies in your attempt to overcome this travesty of justice instead of attacking people who have nothing to do with your problem? Do you think you're more likely to create allies by explaining your plight to them in a reasonable way or accusing them of being a part of the problem? I think we all know the answers to these questions, but the real question is what are you going to do about it and how are you going to encourage people to help you.

Try going unemployed for a year and a half, fo no better reason than the fact that you're a transsexual, and then see how you feel, okay?

How does attacking me or her help you? I doubt it even makes you feel better, so what benefit do you get from it? It seems to me that it's obvious that attacking those who would help you and have never participated in hurting you or endorsed hurting you or stood by while aware that you were being hurt is counterproductive. Seems to me when the transgender community is such a small percentage of the population you should be thankfully accepting allies, not creating enemies by attacking things about them they have as little control over as you do over being a transgender.

How does attacking me or her help you? I doubt it even makes you feel better, so what benefit do you get from it? It seems to me that it's obvious that attacking those who would help you and have never participated in hurting you or endorsed hurting you or stood by while aware that you were being hurt is counterproductive. Seems to me when the transgender community is such a small percentage of the population you should be thankfully accepting allies, not creating enemies by attacking things about them they have as little control over as you do over being a transgender.

The problem is, you are advocating including STRAIGHTS in our name...meaning any and all straights, including those who oppress us. I'm advocating including only ALLIES...people who are on OUR SIDE...and can include straight people. Semantics.

As to the rest...maybe you have never experienced what I am going through. Maybe you don't know how frustrating it is...to want to lash out at the people who are hurting you, but you CAN'T lash out at them or get even with them...and finally the anger inside you boils up to the point that you lash out at whoever is convenient!

Look, I'm mad as hell! All I have ever asked for from this world is to give me a chance to EARN a living, and make or break my own self, and not discriminate against me for actions I did that are perfectly legal, even if you may not like or approve of those actions. They weren't illegal, and they hurt no-one, so why are all these people hell-bent on denying me the ability to earn a livelihood because of them? It isn't fucking fair! I did NOTHING to deserve this sort of treatment!

The problem is, you are advocating including STRAIGHTS in our name...meaning any and all straights, including those who oppress us. I'm advocating including only ALLIES...people who are on OUR SIDE...and can include straight people. Semantics.

You're missing the point. Do you think there aren't closeted gays and lesbians working against you? Do you think there aren't closeted transgenders and bisexuals working against you? There are lots of people working against you. Including Straights in the name is suggesting that you include all people working for you and not just the ones that qualify into your particular view of who is worthy. I got news for you, but it's far more likely that someone living as a man that has internally felt as a woman her whole life, who has struggled with their identity and decided that those feelings where the devil trying to drag her into sin, is going to rallying people around trying to make the world more difficult for you. Most straight people never give a thought to transgenders good or bad.

The world isn't some evil place out to get you. There is a vocal minority of people who do crappy things and they would victimize you and they would victimize me and they would victimize everyone else they can get away with. Now you can let them divide us up and destroy us a piece at a time or you can help us to unite and destroy them a piece at time. We both know what the issue is but how YOU choose to deal with it is a HELL of a lot more than semantics.

As to the rest...maybe you have never experienced what I am going through. Maybe you don't know how frustrating it is...to want to lash out at the people who are hurting you, but you CAN'T lash out at them or get even with them...and finally the anger inside you boils up to the point that you lash out at whoever is convenient!

No, I've never experienced what you're going through. You've never experienced what I'm going through. That's kind of the nature of being human isn't it. We all live in our personal hell or heaven depending on what we make of it. Because you've allowed this anger to fester inside of you to this degree is no excuse for attacking people who are undeserving. When you attack people because of their sexuality, their gender, how they identify themselves, their race, their religion, etc., you are becoming exactly like the people you despise. They justify their anger in their minds the same way.

Look, I'm mad as hell! All I have ever asked for from this world is to give me a chance to EARN a living, and make or break my own self, and not discriminate against me for actions I did that are perfectly legal, even if you may not like or approve of those actions. They weren't illegal, and they hurt no-one, so why are all these people hell-bent on denying me the ability to earn a livelihood because of them? It isn't fucking fair! I did NOTHING to deserve this sort of treatment!

Do you think you're the first person treated unfairly? Is it fair that children are working in factories practically from birth so we can buy shoes cheaper? Is it fair that there are children being blown up, starving or dying of thirst because of the politics of people they've never met and never will meet? Is it fair that some children are born with aids because their parents weren't careful enough to prevent it or not educated enough to know how? Is it fair that children were hacked up with machetes in Rwanda because the bridge of their nose was wider or more narrow than some others? Did they do something to deserve that sort of treatment? They can yell and cry about how they're treated and it will be more justified and just as unproductive.

There are lots of unfair things in the world and yours is not the most unfair things that anyone has ever experienced. All we can do is try to change things and make things better a little bit at a time, if not for us then for our children or our children's children.

I have a better question. If being born with a penis when you are mentally, emotionally and, in many ways, physically a woman doesn't warrant the treatment you've received from others, how does being born straight warrant the treatment I've received from you? "I did NOTHING to deserve this sort of treatment!" You have been mistreated by people that are not me. I've been mistreated by YOU. If your anger at me is righteous, wouldn't I be more righteous to be angry at you? The difference is that I recognize that it's counterproductive. I realize that I might as well piss in the wind, because it can only serve to justify and increase your anger and disdain for me and people like me. Perhaps you will see your situation begin to improve when you learn these same lessons.

I wish I could snap my fingers and make the world a fair place or even just a fair place for you, but I can't. It's not in my power. And yelling and screaming at the wind isn't going to make that the case. The ONLY solution is buckle down, choose a strategy for making a change and execute it. It sucks that you're put in that position but your choices are to lament your situation or do what you can to improve it. Unfortunately, screaming that straight people have it in for you not only doesn't change it but it makes it worse.

And I've avoided saying this, but I have to wonder with all this pent of rage and anger if that's not a factor in the interviews you've done. You say that the only possible reason that anyone would deny you a job during the interview is because you're a transsexual, but why do you think they conduct interviews? It's not to weed out the transexuals, I'll tell you that. I conduct interviews all the time, and I'm looking for people who are going to fit into my team and work well with my team. It's not about dress or what they look like or what genetalia they were born with, but their attitude and whether people are going to enjoy working with person or whether this person is going to make people more likely to go to other companies or despise coming to work. If you display one tenth of the venom in an interview that you display on NS, then I wouldn't hire you and it would have nothing to do with you being a transexual. And if you think anger is like a faucet that you can just shut off for the interview, you're wrong. I center the process around finding out this kind of stuff and I'm good at it.

You might find your situation improving when your attitude toward the rest of the world does.

I'm a fairly patient person and even I'm beginning to tire of the world is against me attitude and the constant cries of how you've never been given a chance. You can't change the cards you were dealt, you can only change how you play the hand. You keep folding and then complaining that everyone won't let you win.

I recommend that after you read this message that you sit back and think for a bit before replying. Try to reply from a place of reason rather than emotion and watch how much more productive that is. Give yourself some time to calm down and maybe, just maybe, you will find a way to express yourself that doesn't include attacking people who haven't warranted it or claiming the whole world is out to get you. Everyone in this group and many of the people are trying to help you, Lyric, but no one is going to keep offering you a hand up when you bite it every time it comes near you.

You're missing the point. Do you think there aren't closeted gays and lesbians working against you? Do you think there aren't closeted transgenders and bisexuals working against you? There are lots of people working against you. Including Straights in the name is suggesting that you include all people working for you and not just the ones that qualify into your particular view of who is worthy. I got news for you, but it's far more likely that someone living as a man that has internally felt as a woman her whole life, who has struggled with their identity and decided that those feelings where the devil trying to drag her into sin, is going to rallying people around trying to make the world more difficult for you. Most straight people never give a thought to transgenders good or bad.

The world isn't some evil place out to get you. There is a vocal minority of people who do crappy things and they would victimize you and they would victimize me and they would victimize everyone else they can get away with. Now you can let them divide us up and destroy us a piece at a time or you can help us to unite and destroy them a piece at time. We both know what the issue is but how YOU choose to deal with it is a HELL of a lot more than semantics.



No, I've never experienced what you're going through. You've never experienced what I'm going through. That's kind of the nature of being human isn't it. We all live in our personal hell or heaven depending on what we make of it. Because you've allowed this anger to fester inside of you to this degree is no excuse for attacking people who are undeserving. When you attack people because of their sexuality, their gender, how they identify themselves, their race, their religion, etc., you are becoming exactly like the people you despise. They justify their anger in their minds the same way.



Do you think you're the first person treated unfairly? Is it fair that children are working in factories practically from birth so we can buy shoes cheaper? Is it fair that there are children being blown up, starving or dying of thirst because of the politics of people they've never met and never will meet? Is it fair that some children are born with aids because their parents weren't careful enough to prevent it or not educated enough to know how? Is it fair that children were hacked up with machetes in Rwanda because the bridge of their nose was wider or more narrow than some others? Did they do something to deserve that sort of treatment? They can yell and cry about how they're treated and it will be more justified and just as unproductive.

There are lots of unfair things in the world and yours is not the most unfair things that anyone has ever experienced. All we can do is try to change things and make things better a little bit at a time, if not for us then for our children or our children's children.

I have a better question. If being born with a penis when you are mentally, emotionally and, in many ways, physically a woman doesn't warrant the treatment you've received from others, how does being born straight warrant the treatment I've received from you? "I did NOTHING to deserve this sort of treatment!" You have been mistreated by people that are not me. I've been mistreated by YOU. If your anger at me is righteous, wouldn't I be more righteous to be angry at you? The difference is that I recognize that it's counterproductive. I realize that I might as well piss in the wind, because it can only serve to justify and increase your anger and disdain for me and people like me. Perhaps you will see your situation begin to improve when you learn these same lessons.

I wish I could snap my fingers and make the world a fair place or even just a fair place for you, but I can't. It's not in my power. And yelling and screaming at the wind isn't going to make that the case. The ONLY solution is buckle down, choose a strategy for making a change and execute it. It sucks that you're put in that position but your choices are to lament your situation or do what you can to improve it. Unfortunately, screaming that straight people have it in for you not only doesn't change it but it makes it worse.

And I've avoided saying this, but I have to wonder with all this pent of rage and anger if that's not a factor in the interviews you've done. You say that the only possible reason that anyone would deny you a job during the interview is because you're a transsexual, but why do you think they conduct interviews? It's not to weed out the transexuals, I'll tell you that. I conduct interviews all the time, and I'm looking for people who are going to fit into my team and work well with my team. It's not about dress or what they look like or what genetalia they were born with, but their attitude and whether people are going to enjoy working with person or whether this person is going to make people more likely to go to other companies or despise coming to work. If you display one tenth of the venom in an interview that you display on NS, then I wouldn't hire you and it would have nothing to do with you being a transexual. And if you think anger is like a faucet that you can just shut off for the interview, you're wrong. I center the process around finding out this kind of stuff and I'm good at it.

You might find your situation improving when your attitude toward the rest of the world does.

I'm a fairly patient person and even I'm beginning to tire of the world is against me attitude and the constant cries of how you've never been given a chance. You can't change the cards you were dealt, you can only change how you play the hand. You keep folding and then complaining that everyone won't let you win.

I recommend that after you read this message that you sit back and think for a bit before replying. Try to reply from a place of reason rather than emotion and watch how much more productive that is. Give yourself some time to calm down and maybe, just maybe, you will find a way to express yourself that doesn't include attacking people who haven't warranted it or claiming the whole world is out to get you. Everyone in this group and many of the people are trying to help you, Lyric, but no one is going to keep offering you a hand up when you bite it every time it comes near you.


Blah blah blah blah blah blah...more of the old "blame the victim" game!
Yep....let's go ahead and blame the victim and thus excuse the bigotry and prejudice. Let's not address the victim's righteous anger at the unjust and unfair treatment she has recieved...let's just blame it all back on her...on the victim...and then absolve all the crappy people in the world, so that they can continue shitting on her and feel justified in doing so....

Blah blah blah blah blah blah...more of the old "blame the victim" game!
Yep....let's go ahead and blame the victim and thus excuse the bigotry and prejudice. Let's not address the victim's righteous anger at the unjust and unfair treatment she has recieved...let's just blame it all back on her...on the victim...and then absolve all the crappy people in the world, so that they can continue shitting on her and feel justified in doing so....

It's righteous anger when you are angry at the individuals that did things to you. I've done nothing to you. It's not righteous anger, it's just anger. You've stated plainly that you don't care who you focus that anger on. You say that unfair treatment based on how you were born is unfair, but you persist to focus your unfair treatment on me based on how I was born. I'm not blaming you for being a victim, I'm blaming you for victimizing. I was molested as a child. If I grow up to molest children and someone throws me in jail for it, they aren't blaming the victim they're blaming the victimizer. You are victimizing me in the same way and for the same reason you were victimized. That you feel justified does not excuse your actions. I was never a party to your victimization.

Also, I didn't absolve anyone. I won't absolve anyone who victimizes people based on the way they were born including you. The only one asking that someone guilty of such acts be absolved is you, because you're guilty. When you discontinue your victimization I will discontinuing blaming you for it.

Ah, but see...there's the rub. I did it intentionally...to show you just what it feels like!

As to the rest...maybe you have never experienced what I am going through. Maybe you don't know how frustrating it is...to want to lash out at the people who are hurting you, but you CAN'T lash out at them or get even with them...and finally the anger inside you boils up to the point that you lash out at whoever is convenient!

The prosecution rests.

Look Jocaiba...You are giving me virtually no choice but to put you on ignore. You are pissing me off more and more by the second!!
Now stop this shit or you are going on ignore!

Look Jocaiba...You are giving me virtually no choice but to put you on ignore. You are pissing me off more and more by the second!!
Now stop this shit or you are going on ignore!

Wow thats the first time I've seen the LA LA LA LA LA technique used online.

Look Jocaiba...You are giving me virtually no choice but to put you on ignore. You are pissing me off more and more by the second!!
Now stop this shit or you are going on ignore!

Stop what? Asking you to treat me as an individual and not as somone you make blanket judgements on because I'm straight? Isn't that the same thing you're asking for, only replace straight with transgendered? I could never ask you to stop asking to be seen as an individual nor will I stop asking. Be pissed. I don't care how mad you get so long as you start treating me as an individual and not someone on whom you dump your ire because you were wronged by people born with the same sexuality I was.

Wow thats the first time I've seen the LA LA LA LA LA technique used online.

Actually, it happens alot on NS.

Which do I think is accurate?

Whichever has this kind of http signature

http://reuters.com/
http://www.ap.org/
http://afp.com/
http://efe.com/
http://bbc.com/
http://news.yahoo.com/
etc...

http://www.breitbart.com/news/ is simply not worthed my time.



I agree. Let's all just cover our eyes and pretend like someone just made it up even though all evidence suggests otherwise. *sticks fingers in ears* WHAT?!?! LALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

OceanDrive2 does it all the time when s/he doesn't like a source. Even when the source is an AP article which s/he endorses.

Actually, it happens alot on NS. OceanDrive2 does it all the time when s/he doesn't like a source. Even when the source is an AP article which s/he endorses.

If only we had a smiley for this.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah...more of the old "blame the victim" game!
Yep....let's go ahead and blame the victim and thus excuse the bigotry and prejudice. Let's not address the victim's righteous anger at the unjust and unfair treatment she has recieved...let's just blame it all back on her...on the victim...and then absolve all the crappy people in the world, so that they can continue shitting on her and feel justified in doing so....
Yeah...OR you could stop using it as an excuse to shit on everyone else? That would be refreshing.

Look at me everyone! I'm an aboriginal! I've been discriminated against my whole life! So I'm going to be really angry, hate every white person, and feel that the terrible things people have done to me justifies my own racism! :rolleyes:

If only we had a smiley for this.
it'd be more popular than the fluffle
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/NuGo1988/notlistening.gif
not listening

Wow thats the first time I've seen the LA LA LA LA LA technique used online.
This is my new sig!!!:)

I would like to say again that we've created a place where we can discuss this topic further and we will make sure that people are civil to one another. It is our hope that we can make a difference and further the cause of equality. If you are interested send me a TG and we'll get you involved.

*I can't define we, because I don't rightly know. Please take this opportunity to get involved.

This is all pointless. We can't seem to get a discussion going without getting interrupted by endless melodrama. I say we ask a mod to lock this thread and start moving actual work on this group to the invision forum.

This is all pointless. We can't seem to get a discussion going without getting interrupted by endless melodrama. I say we ask a mod to lock this thread and start moving actual work on this group to the invision forum.
I second that, and will make the request.

This is my new sig!!!:)

Finally someone sigs something of mine here. Awsome :D