NationStates Jolt Archive

from the upcoming issue of "The Free Press," English-language newspaper of the Free People's Movement (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org):

Fresh from a day spent visiting the "Point Community Development Corporation" in New York's South Bronx neighborhood where he met with the leaders of dozens of social groups and residents of the Bronx, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez entered the packed Church of St. Paul and St. Andrew in Manhattan on the night of Saturday, September 17 to a standing ovation and chants of “Chavez, Chavez!” The large crowd had waited hours to hear the president speak.

President Chavez began the speech in English, using a few basic phrases he learned in school and bringing laughter to the crowd. He went on to tell the audience that rather than them thank him for coming, he should thank them for coming to listen.

He then greeted some special guests in attendance including the Reverend Jesse Jackson, U.S. Congressman Jose Serrano, Fr. Roy Bourgeois - founder of the School of the Americas Watch, the president of Pastors for Peace, actor Danny Glover, president of the National Assembly of Peoples Power of Cuba Ricardo Alarcon, and many others.

After thanking the president of the local transportation union, President Chavez continued by announcing that Venezuela, an oil producing country where gasoline is sold for fifteen cents a gallon thanks to government policies, was reiterating its offer of low cost gasoline (through it’s company CITGO), heating oil, and fuel to generate energy to poor communities, hospitals, universities, churches, and others in the U.S. He said that the current price for heating oil in the U.S. was around three dollars a gallon. “This is a bit high I think.” He advised the people in attendance that Venezuela could offer heating oil, gasoline and fuel at very low prices, as long as there were no middle men. Other deals could be made, he said, such as long term loans at the lowest possible rates, and grants to universities and hospitals.

The president then assured the audience that he had no hard feelings towards the American people. He said that his criticisms of the Bush administration, usually made in retaliation to verbal attacks against him by U.S. officials, were sometimes misconstrued as attacks against the American people. “I love the people of the United States,” he said.

Speaking on the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq, Chavez said it was justifiable for people in an invaded country to defend themselves. "The true war we ask for is the war against poverty and misery," he said, drawing an extended applause from the audience.

Chavez explained Venezuela’s recent efforts to clean up their rivers, and said he had advised the president of Venezuelan owned CITGO to hire environmental experts to study the Bronx river in order to find out what would be necessary to clean it as well. He said Venezuela would fund the undertaking, as long as the U.S. government didn’t object.

President Chavez reiterated the generous offers of both his country and Cuba to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina (see “Cuba and Venezuela Offer Aid To Katrina Victims (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/fp14d.html),” The Free Press Volume 1, Issue 4 (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/freepress.html)), to which the U.S. government have still not responded. The two countries were among the first in the world to offer aid. “Cuba had two thousand doctors ready to go ... they are only two hours away,” he said. “The generators are still in the airplanes [waiting to go].”

The president explained that when it was originally thought that Hurricane Katrina would strike Havana, the capital city of Cuba, 2,000,000 people, along with their pets and all farm animals in danger, were safely evacuated. He pointed to this as a model for others.


When he informed the audience that Fidel Castro was listening to the speech from Cuba, the crowd immediately rose to their feet and gave a rousing applause. Chants of “Viva Fidel!” and “Viva Cuba!” echoed throughout the church.

Chavez spoke shortly about the speech he had given two days earlier at the United Nations summit. The speech, in which he delivered a fiery criticism of U.S. President Bush, capitalism, and American imperialism, and proposed moving the UN to a city in the developing world, drew the loudest and most enthusiastic applause at the summit. Cuban leaders Fidel Castro and Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara drew similar responses after their historic debut addresses before the general assembly in the 1960's.

President Chavez then explained to the audience the reasoning behind Venezuela and Cuba’s choice to register protest to the 35-page agreement that came out of the summit. He said the two countries were excluded from the final drafting of the deal, and singled out one issue in particular. A section of the document apparently outlined a “responsibility to protect.” “Is that what they’re doing in Iraq now, protecting?” he asked. “Tomorrow or sometime in the future, someone in Washington will say that the Venezuelan people need to be protected from the tyrant Chavez, who is a threat.”

Towards the end of the speech, the Venezuelan president extended an offer from his people, and the people of Cuba, to treat Americans with eye problems that were unable to afford the necessary treatment. “Between 80,000 and 100,000 a year” would be treated he said, as a part of a total of 6 million patients from around the world who will be treated over the next ten years. He said the government of Venezuela would pay all related expenses, including transportation to and from the United States, and that any interested parties should contact the Venezuelan consulate.

The Americans would be flown to Caracas, explained Chavez, where some of them would remain to receive treatment, but most would continue on to Havana via one of three Venezuelan airplanes since Cuba is equipped to treat more patients.

Cuba’s completely free medical system is world renowned, and Cuban doctors have been treating patients from around the world for decades, both within Cuba and abroad. Most of them would not have received health care otherwise.

According to Chavez, 20,000 Cuban doctors are currently in Venezuela, training local doctors and treating patients, and 90,000 Venezuelans have received medical treatment in Cuba this year alone. “Our goal is 100,000,” he said. This is treatment they wouldn’t have been able to receive in their own country, because Venezuela, like many countries, doesn’t have the advanced equipment needed for certain operations. The president said they were making strides towards getting such equipment.

Chavez also told the story of his own daughter, who had recently had foot and eye problems diagnosed and then treated in Cuba. Cuban doctors successfully operated on a congenial cataract in her eyes and a tendon in her foot. “She says she can run a little bit faster now,” he said, drawing laughter from the audience.

Before ending, Chavez told the crowd that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, as well as sizeable gas deposits, and that they wanted to share them with everyone.

The president brought the speech to a close amid a standing ovation with the immortal words of the revolutionary Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara, “Hasta la victoria, siempre (ever onward to victory)!”

He can shut up. He's an imbecile and nobody cares about them.

"Before ending, Chavez told the crowd that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, as well as sizeable gas deposits, and that they wanted to share them with everyone. "

No. The largest reserves are in Canada and Saudi Arabia.

It would be a great honor to meet President Hugo Chavez.

[i]from the upcoming issue of "The Free Press," English-language newspaper of

<snip>



I have to question this entire article.. living in new york I've heard none of this, and I find it hard to belive all of the news outlets say this one (rather questionable source) picked up on the Preisdent of Venezuela visting New York

...

And why would anyone in the US be chanting CHavez anyway ? ... I have (atleast some) confidence the average american is able to see his claims of wanting to help the poor for what they are (PR campeign) to look good back at home (anti american administration).

Of course Castro followed suit but I feel the Bush administration made the wrong move turning him down. We should have accepted those 1000 doctors. And when they defected after they got here... We of course accept and give them refuge.. the whole thing would have blown up in Castros face.

Has anyone else noticed the Idi Amin like quality of this man?

I have to question this entire article.. living in new york I've heard none of this, and I find it hard to belive all of the news outlets say this one (rather questionable source) picked up on the Preisdent of Venezuela visting New York

...

And why would anyone in the US be chanting CHavez anyway ? ... I have (atleast some) confidence the average american is able to see his claims of wanting to help the poor for what they are (PR campeign) to look good back at home (anti american administration).

Of course Castro followed suit but I feel the Bush administration made the wrong move turning him down. We should have accepted those 1000 doctors. And when they defected after they got here... We of course accept and give them refuge.. the whole thing would have blown up in Castros face.


So you didnt catch anything about...

the UN Summit...

right...

Has anyone else noticed the Idi Amin like quality of this man?

Hugo Chavez has syphilis? Hahah.. i just had to say it..

Thank you for posting that, Mihkrit. It's very interesting, and I hope a lot of Americans read it.

Thank you for posting that, Mihkrit. It's very interesting, and I hope a lot of Americans read it.

We don't need some foreign idiot leader telling us how to think. This guy has a serious case of megalomania. He's a damn psychopath who doesn't even a give a shit about his own people.

We don't need some foreign idiot leader telling us how to think.
yeah, you have your own idiot leader to do so :p

yeah, you have your own idiot leader to do so :p

The only thing is he's not an idiot, and we also elected him.

blah blah blah blah.. anymore left wing talking points?

The only thing is he's not an idiot, and we also elected him.
Not the first time round... :p

Not the first time round... :p

Well I did not take in part of that election since I was too young at the time, but yes he did win. If you understand the facts, he did in fact win the election both times.

Well I did not take in part of that election since I was too young at the time, but yes he did win. If you understand the facts, he did in fact win the election both times.Right...
Actually, come to think of it, none of us have ever elected a president. And that is a fact.

Right...
Actually, come to think of it, none of us have ever elected a president. And that is a fact.

Um, no. I have (well not me alone, but 61 million other people in the last election). Representative democracy though.. works the best.

Um, no. I have (well not me alone, but 61 million other people in the last election). Representative democracy though.. works the best.Um... no. As you said, the US is a Republic. You don't vote for the President. That's what the electoral college does.

Um... no. As you said, the US is a Republic. You don't vote for the President. That's what the electoral college does.

Eh, actually indirectly I did vote for him. But your opinion doesn't matter to me. It never really has.

Eh, actually indirectly I did vote for him.Yup. But your opinion doesn't matter to me. It never really has.Hmhm. Doesn't really surprise me. I personally refrain from discarding most other people's opinions outright. You can disagree with someone without discarding their opinion, you know.

The only thing is he's not an idiot, and we also elected him.

blah blah blah blah.. anymore left wing talking points?
This is pretty rich coming from a guy who comes into any and every thread shouting and screaming nonsense based on a hatred for anything on the Left.

That evil evil Chavez man. Grrr... How dare he attempt to make the poor in his country better off, how dare he not make a massive profit off them :mad:
...boooo! An elected man, kept in office by the majority of the people.
Shocking! :eek:

That evil evil Chavez man. Grrr... How dare he attempt to make the poor in his country better off, how dare he not make a massive profit off them :mad:
...boooo! An elected man, kept in office by the majority of the people.
Shocking! :eek:

To be fair, and this coming from a person who has spoken loudly about hearing the man out, he really is starting to strike me as a bald-faced self-publicist, trying to curry favor with parts of the poorer population.

Also, I highly doubt people were chanting Chavez as he walked by or anything.

That evil evil Chavez man. Grrr... How dare he attempt to make the poor in his country better off, how dare he not make a massive profit off them :mad:
...boooo! An elected man, kept in office by the majority of the people.
Shocking! :eek:

That's BS and you know it. He's not helping anybody, and he not supporting his own people. First off, this isn't his damn country. Secondly, the US government is doiing a better job then he could ever do in a million years. And finally, I don't think Chavez is paying much attention to his own country and is giving away Venezuela's resources for nothing. That's like someone taking money from my bank account and giving it away. Money I worked for. That's not nice is it?

That's like someone taking money from my bank account and giving it away. Money I worked for. That's not nice is it?We must do everything we can to stomp out this communist notion of charity! :p

We must do everything we can to stomp out this communist notion of charity! :p

I'll donate money myself and I have (to the tsunami victims and the hurricane victims). Like to the red cross which has low overhead. I just don't want to see my money going into the United Way or something. My money, my resources, my responsibility.

To be fair, and this coming from a person who has spoken loudly about hearing the man out, he really is starting to strike me as a bald-faced self-publicist, trying to curry favor with parts of the poorer population.

Also, I highly doubt people were chanting Chavez as he walked by or anything.

Oh yeah, i agree with you on that. I severely doubt that there were a bunch of Noo Yawkers chanting 'Viva Fidel' for some reason. :p i doubt the veracity of that article- i feel it is exaggerated also.

That's BS and you know it. He's not helping anybody, and he not supporting his own people. First off, this isn't his damn country. Secondly, the US government is doiing a better job then he could ever do in a million years. And finally, I don't think Chavez is paying much attention to his own country and is giving away Venezuela's resources for nothing. That's like someone taking money from my bank account and giving it away. Money I worked for. That's not nice is it?

He's 'giving' away his resources, for the overall benefit of the society. There is a bigger picture at stake. If you can educate and give good healthcare to the NEXT generation then a society has hope for the future. You get no long term benefit by lining the pockets of big multi national oil companies. So yes i agree with his literacy and healthcare policies- it will take time for fruition, but it takes time in any society.

I know its not his 'damn country'- i was talking about his own country. The majority of people voted for him=him staying in power. The reson the coup failed was because the massive outpouring of the poor onto the streets- and the loyalty of certain sectors of the military. Without that and the majority of the population, the coup failed. THAT is democracy, whether you like it or not.

He's 'giving' away his resources, for the overall benefit of the society. There is a bigger picture at stake. If you can educate and give good healthcare to the NEXT generation then a society has hope for the future. You get no long term benefit by lining the pockets of big multi national oil companies. So yes i agree with his literacy and healthcare policies- it will take time for fruition, but it takes time in any society.

If I had a car, here are my car keys. Also take my bank card.. the pin number is...

How is that benefitting his country? He's practically giving everything away. How can he fund education or good healthcare without money coming in? I'm sorry but it seems to me you have no concept of how a government functions.

It will take time for fruition (sic)? You don't know what you are saying. That view is ridiculous.

I know its not his 'damn country'- i was talking about his own country. The majority of people voted for him=him staying in power. The reson the coup failed was because the massive outpouring of the poor onto the streets- and the loyalty of certain sectors of the military. Without that and the majority of the population, the coup failed. THAT is democracy, whether you like it or not.

The way he is running the country is not democratic. I don't call murdering and jailing opposition party members democratic.

How can you fund anything when you're broke? You are like.. well I don't have any money but I'm gonna buy that BMW 7. Not going to happen.

Well I need to get some much needed rest. And be sure to take a personal financial course.

The president brought the speech to a close amid a standing ovation with the immortal words of the revolutionary Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara, “Hasta la victoria, siempre (ever onward to victory)!”
This appears to be little more than grandstanding. My first impulse is to be rather angry at Chavez for trying to use the freedom of speech in America to subvert America. My second, and much stronger impulse is to wish I were rich so I could offer to fly all those who "wildly applauded" him and Fidel Castro to either Venezeuela or Cuba so they could live in luxury and ease, as opposed to evil old America, who obviously opresses them and keeps them from becoming rich. :rolleyes:

The way he is running the country is not democratic. I don't call murdering and jailing opposition party members democratic.
Yes you do. I distinctly recall you using Colombia as a shining counter example when it's just as bad there.

By the way ... who was in the audience? Hmmm? Why didn't you or the article mention that? I really would love to know. Tell us please.

Yes you do. I distinctly recall you using Colombia as a shining counter example when it's just as bad there.

What about Colombia? I don't recall Uribe having candidates murdered. There are rebel groups in the country and that is tragic they kidnap candidates and opposition party members. But face the facts: Colombia has been in civil war for a long time. I never used it as a fucking shining counter example. I used it for a different purpose.

How is that benefitting his country? He's practically giving everything away. How can he fund education or good healthcare without money coming in? I'm sorry but it seems to me you have no concept of how a government functions.
Becuae he's is not selling it to multi national corporations, therefore the country gets nothing in return, state run oil companies at the very LEAST have the capability to redistibute the profits. Thats how.


It will take time for fruition (sic)? You don't know what you are saying. That view is ridiculous.
I don't? Ok. Prove otherwise. And show why it is 'ridiculous'. Do you expect everything done NOW NOW NOW! Or do you realise that social restructuring takes up to a generation to see the benefits (.ie. their children currently in school)





The way he is running the country is not democratic. I don't call murdering and jailing opposition party members democratic.

What you call democracy is no concern of mine or of national leaders.
Provide a linky for the murdering of opposition members please.

Overall, looking at the Economic bias of our respective compasses- it is no wonder we disagree about how a state should be run.

We don't need some foreign idiot leader telling us how to think. This guy has a serious case of megalomania. He's a damn psychopath who doesn't even a give a shit about his own people.

Yes sure, you've got enough with your own gov idiots to tell you what to do. I hate talking like that but you are asking for. The rest of the world has a lot of things to say and you'd better do at least listening carefully. Go and die in Irak for Halliburton, Israel safety and the oil control. :sniper:

By the way ... who was in the audience? Hmmm? Why didn't you or the article mention that? I really would love to know. Tell us please.
If the majority of the people in a country can't stand the US (or its policies), then why is it so unlikely that an Anti-American Leader can be chosen democratically?
And if you get Christian Televangelicals calling for your head, you'd be angry too.

If the majority of the people in a country can't stand the US (or its policies), then why is it so unlikely that an Anti-American Leader can be chosen democratically?
And if you get Christian Televangelicals calling for your head, you'd be angry too.
Which in no way answers my question. :rolleyes:

What about Colombia? I don't recall Uribe having candidates murdered. There are rebel groups in the country and that is tragic they kidnap candidates and opposition party members.
Hm.. only rebel groups, huh?
Colombia’s forty-year internal armed conflict continues to be accompanied by widespread violations of human rights and international humanitarian law. All actors in the conflict—guerrillas, paramilitary groups, and the armed forces—commit serious violations, such as massacres, assassinations, and kidnappings.Source (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/colomb9847.htm)
But face the facts: Colombia has been in civil war for a long time. I never used it as a fucking shining counter example. I used it for a different purpose.As far as I remember, you were talking about how it was so much better than Venezuela because Uribe was actually making the country better economically.

Becuae he's is not selling it to multi national corporations, therefore the country gets nothing in return, state run oil companies at the very LEAST have the capability to redistibute the profits. Thats how.

This has got to be the least informed set of comments I have seen of yet. How the fuck can he redistribute profits when there are none coming in? That entire redistribution method is nonsense too and has slid the entire country into poverty.

Or do you realise that social restructuring takes up to a generation to see the benefits (.ie. their children currently in school)

I prefer fiscal stability, then funding into the education and health budget. You need mony to do this. Your little talk doesn't accomplish anything.. "oh but it will happen". No it won't. No money, no programs.

Overall, looking at the Economic bias of our respective compasses- it is no wonder we disagree about how a state should be run.

I'm just looking at what is what.. you cannot tell doctors or teachers to work without pay. they have to eat too. You need to collect taxes. You need a private sector that is functioning to do that. If you don't have a functioning private sector.. well you have a breakdown in society and a load of problems.

Yes sure, you've got enough with your own gov idiots to tell you what to do. I hate talking like that but you are asking for. The rest of the world has a lot of things to say and you'd better do at least listening carefully. Go and die in Irak for Halliburton, Israel safety and the oil control. :sniper:
Totally uncalled for, and totally irrelevant. :(

Hm.. only rebel groups, huh?
Source (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/colomb9847.htm)
As far as I remember, you were talking about how it was so much better than Venezuela because Uribe was actually making the country better economically.

Uribe has been making tremendous strides in the economic arena.. helping push stability that has reduced the amount of civil strife. There has been greater economic growth and more jobs created.

But there is still work to be done, yes.

Gadiristan, shut up. Please. Your nonsense is not needed.

Well I did not take in part of that election since I was too young at the time, but yes he did win. If you understand the facts, he did in fact win the election both times.

Hitler too and he wasn't better for that. Churchill said, democracy it's the worst gov sistem after all the others (I know the sentence in my own language, so it's free translation). To be voted doesn't become him in the the holy grial, as you usually think. He's a man, and not the better than america could choose but he has the right friends and the right father (and God sitted on his right, of course). :eek:

This has got to be the least informed set of comments I have seen of yet. How the fuck can he redistribute profits when there are none coming in? That entire redistribution method is nonsense too and has slid the entire country into poverty.

I prefer fiscal stability, then funding into the education and health budget. You need mony to do this. Your little talk doesn't accomplish anything.. "oh but it will happen". No it won't. No money, no programs.

I'm just looking at what is what.. you cannot tell doctors or teachers to work without pay. they have to eat too. You need to collect taxes. You need a private sector that is functioning to do that. If you don't have a functioning private sector.. well you have a breakdown in society and a load of problems.
You are trying to be way too logical and practical for this forum. You might want to start a blog, if you don't already have one that is. :)

Which in no way answers my question. :rolleyes:
:D

It's gonna be the same audience GWB speaks to about Iraq: People who aren't going to disagree with a single word he says. It's rule number one in Rhetoric: "Choose your audience wisely!"

Totally uncalled for, and totally irrelevant. :(Well Bush is a foreign leader that told the Iraqis that they need to embrace democracy... I don't see how that is essentially different from what Chavez did if all you go by is the foreign leader and tell how to think. A tactless way of putting it, maybe.

This has got to be the least informed set of comments I have seen of yet. How the fuck can he redistribute profits when there are none coming in? That entire redistribution method is nonsense too and has slid the entire country into poverty.
Just because he isn't trying screw over the poor doesn't mean he's not making a profit. Via the state run companies, there is still money coming in (granted not as much as it would if it was privitised- but privitised companies don't give back to the state- nationalised do). Now as i'm not the Minister for Finance for Venez. , i can't exactly say how much IS coming in.



I prefer fiscal stability, then funding into the education and health budget. You need mony to do this. Your little talk doesn't accomplish anything.. "oh but it will happen". No it won't. No money, no programs.

I'm just looking at what is what.. you cannot tell doctors or teachers to work without pay. they have to eat too. You need to collect taxes. You need a private sector that is functioning to do that. If you don't have a functioning private sector.. well you have a breakdown in society and a load of problems.

Again, i reiterate my point=
Overall, looking at the Economic bias of our respective compasses- it is no wonder we disagree about how a state should be run.

Hitler too and he wasn't better for that. Churchill said, democracy it's the worst gov sistem after all the others (I know the sentence in my own language, so it's free translation). To be voted doesn't become him in the the holy grial, as you usually think. He's a man, and not the better than america could choose but he has the right friends and the right father (and God sitted on his right, of course). :eek:

And comparing Bush to Hitler.. it shows how you don't have an argument. Go be a troll elsewhere. I never said he was anything more then a man. All I said is was he that he was elected. There'll be another election in 2008 for a new president because he's limited to two terms. You again don't know what you're saying.

Ok, let me try once again ... who was in the audience? Why didn't the article mention that? Why didn't the article mention how many were in the audience, or where they were from? This is important information to know about where something as radical and unusual as this occurs.

Were they all members of the American Communist Party? Were they all of Hispanic descent? Were they all socialists? More information, please.

And comparing Bush to Hitler.. it shows how you don't have an argument. Go be a troll elsewhere. I never said he was anything more then a man. All I said is was he that he was elected. There'll be another election in 2008 for a new president because he's limited to two terms. You again don't know what you're saying.I find it sad that you didn't say anything like this when New York and Jersey compared Schröder to Hitler...

Just because he isn't trying screw over the poor doesn't mean he's not making a profit. Via the state run companies, there is still money coming in (granted not as much as it would if it was privitised- but privitised companies don't give back to the state- nationalised do). Now as i'm not the Minister for Finance for Venez. , i can't exactly say how much IS coming in.

Wait.. how is he not screwing over the poor? He made the entire country poor.. your logic is contradictory. :confused: You run in more circles then anyone here. Again go to a personal financial course and you will see why.

Private companies don't give back to the state? What are you smoking? YOU KNOW WHAT CORPORATE TAXES ARE? Private industry in the US makes up a huge bulk of US tax collection. Damn... how misinformed.

Ok, let me try once again ... who was in the audience? Why didn't the article mention that? Why didn't the article mention how many were in the audience, or where they were from? This is important information to know about where something as radical and unusual as this occurs.

Were they all members of the American Communist Party? Were they all of Hispanic descent? Were they all socialists? More information, please.

To be honest, i wouldn't believe the article anyway. I much preferred his UN speech- :D
After being told by an aide that his 2 mins were up, Chavez threw the note to the ground and said "If George Bush can speak for 20 mins, then so can I."

:D:D

I find it sad that you didn't say anything like this when New York and Jersey compared Schröder to Hitler...

I never heard about that. So it is kinda difficult for me to comment on it, when the first time I heard about it.. was just now. It was definitely the wrong comment to make. Schroder is no Hitler.

-snip-
Now now, don't get aggravated.
Neither you nor him have any numbers to back up your claims, and I would like to see if either can come up with any.

To be honest, i wouldn't believe the article anyway. I much preferred his UN speech- :D
After being told by an aide that his 2 mins were up, Chavez threw the note to the ground and said "If George Bush can speak for 20 mins, then so can I."
Well, at least we can admire his chutzpah. :)

But that still doesn't answer my question!

Now now, don't get aggravated.
Neither you nor him have any numbers to back up your claims, and I would like to see if either can come up with any.

I'm not arguing with numbers here. I'm just saying you can't fund programs without money.

So please, move on and stop trolling me. And you hardly, if ever, back yourself up.

I never heard about that. So it is kinda difficult for me to comment on it, when the first time I heard about it.. was just now. It was definitely the wrong comment to make. Schroder is no Hitler.It was a subtle allusion in the Merkel tops Schroeder thread. Regardless of the comment, NY&J wasn't trolling (though I do think Gadiristan isn't offering any sound arguementation).

It was a subtle allusion in the Merkel tops Schroeder thread. Regardless of the comment, NY&J wasn't trolling (though I do think Gadiristan isn't offering any sound arguementation).

I did not see it, damn it. I can't follow every single post in every single thread. I'm only human.

So please, move on and stop trolling me. And you hardly, if ever, back yourself up.
Oh Brother... :rolleyes:
Well, carry on then...

So please, move on and stop trolling me. And you hardly, if ever, back yourself up.Uh, asking for numbers isn't trolling, especially when Leonstein has been backing up what he said. (Don't believe me? Check out the Merkel tops Schroeder thread)

Wait.. how is he not screwing over the poor? He made the entire country poor.. your logic is contradictory. :confused: You run in more circles then anyone here. Again go to a personal financial course and you will see why.
Prove that! And you STILL haven't provided any links to back up your 'murdering' comments. All bark....

Private companies don't give back to the state? What are you smoking? YOU KNOW WHAT CORPORATE TAXES ARE? Private industry in the US makes up a huge bulk of US tax collection. Damn... how misinformed.

Hmmm, private company gives back 12-15%... national company gives back 80% plus.... hmmm, yes i see what the worse option is there alright

:rolleyes:

Uh, asking for numbers isn't trolling, especially when Leonstein has been backing up what he said. (Don't believe me? Check out the Merkel tops Schroeder thread)

You people run in more circles then I imagined. I was trying to talk some common sense (like government programs need money.. this money is collected from taxes.. taxes more then often come from private industry in bulk). whatever. i'm going to get some rest. it is extremely late (or shall I say very early here).

Psychotic mongooses:

Dude, look at the country. The povery rate has skyrocketed. The middle class is all but gone. It isn't bark. It is common sense.

Hmmm, private company gives back 12-15%... national company gives back 80% plus.... hmmm, yes i see what the worse option is there alright

You don't know what you are saying.. you don't have any freaking evidence either. Since private industry makes far more money it is the other way around. NO EVIDENCE, NO ARGUMENT. Period.

. i'm going to get some rest. it is extremely late (or shall I say very early here).

You don't know what you are saying.. you don't have any freaking evidence either. Since private industry makes far more money it is the other way around. NO EVIDENCE, NO ARGUMENT. Period.

Alright, until you return ;) Then you can provide some links to back up your 'murdering' and 'caused the country to be poor' comments i hope.

Sweet dreams. :fluffle:

You people run in more circles then I imagined. I was trying to talk some common sense (like government programs need money.. this money is collected from taxes.. taxes more then often come from private industry in bulk). whatever. i'm going to get some rest. it is extremely late (or shall I say very early here).Look, arguing that someone that usually backs what they have to say up doesn't back up what they say tends to reduce the validity of one's arguement.
Fact is, Leonstein has been answering your calls in the Merkel Schroeder thread while you have not really put much up to refute him. Claiming that he doesn't reduces the amount of "common sense" you can talk into people.

And comparing Bush to Hitler.. it shows how you don't have an argument. Go be a troll elsewhere. I never said he was anything more then a man. All I said is was he that he was elected. There'll be another election in 2008 for a new president because he's limited to two terms. You again don't know what you're saying.

Ok, I don't think Bush it's like Hitler but he was also elected in a democratic election, as Chavez was. So, it doesn't prove anything. Your country and mine (Spain) were the only to support the attack against democracy in Venezuela. Democracy it's also a how-to-do daily, and Bush it's not the better exemple (not the worst, neither).

I know he's limited to two terms, that's one of things I can admire from the USA sistem, but here seems that no one can recognize the shit on his roof but just in others. I'd like to have a serious conversation but I think calling Idiots , Bullshits and so it's not the right way.

I'm not in love with Chavez, I've many critics to do about him but it's the first that has given hope to the 80 % of Venezuelan people in 50 years. There was a former democracy but just the middle class tokk part and they didn't share the richesses from oil. And now that's the source for paying the doctors, the teachers and, also for making Public Relationships. He's a bit clown for my idea of a responsible president but he's doing much more than other more "respectables".

Please, let's talk like inteligent people, we should recognize the best and the worst about everyone, let's be critic.

Well, since no one has any information about the composition or size of this alleged "audience," and since the source "The Free People's Movement" is, at very best, a questionable one ( and that's being VERY charitable! ), I will move along to other threads.

See some of you later! :)

Totally uncalled for, and totally irrelevant. :(
Yeah, and he spelled Iraq wrong!

I don't see how Chavez is subverting America. Embarrassing the US Gov't is not subverting America. Assuming that he goes ahead with his promises, all he is doing is helping people.

He should live but not for long !

Ok, let me try once again ... who was in the audience? Why didn't the article mention that? Why didn't the article mention how many were in the audience, or where they were from? This is important information to know about where something as radical and unusual as this occurs.

Were they all members of the American Communist Party? Were they all of Hispanic descent? Were they all socialists? More information, please.
I don't know for certain, but I think it's fair to assume that the majority of them were of Latin American descent, probably Venezuelan. This was in New York, after all--there are sizable communities of practically every national background there, seeing as it's a city of 11 million. They probably weren't members of the American Communist Party, but they were almost certainly left-leaning.

Why does it matter?

Ok, I don't think Bush it's like Hitler but he was also elected in a democratic election, as Chavez was. So, it doesn't prove anything. Your country and mine (Spain) were the only to support the attack against democracy in Venezuela. Democracy it's also a how-to-do daily, and Bush it's not the better exemple (not the worst, neither).

A few last things before I go to bed...

How do you know I'm from Spain?


I'm not in love with Chavez, I've many critics to do about him but it's the first that has given hope to the 80 % of Venezuelan people in 50 years. There was a former democracy but just the middle class tokk part and they didn't share the richesses from oil. And now that's the source for paying the doctors, the teachers and, also for making Public Relationships. He's a bit clown for my idea of a responsible president but he's doing much more than other more "respectables".

Chavez is not thinking about the long term. You see.. I'm a long term thinker. I think about what kind of prosperity can be accomplished in the long term. The middle class was the backbone to Venezuelan socity. And your argument is choppy at best. It makes no sense driving out the middle class from the country, or making them poor.

Now, that's all for today.

[QUOTE=Swimmingpool]

Yeah, and he spelled Iraq wrong!


In my language Iraq it's right writed Irak, actually I think both are right. ;)
It's nonsense but also the critic, I prefer to answer deeper arguments.

The middle class was the backbone to Venezuelan socity.

It makes no sense driving out the middle class from the country, or making them poor.



If the middle class are the backbone, then the poor are the driving force overall.
It makes no sense keeping the poor, poor. What he is ATTEMPTING to do is make the poor less poor. Prove otherwise. PLEASE!

The middle class were rich- now that is threathened. No wonder they don't like him. In a democracy, the majority rules (personally it a stupid form of govt) and therefore if the majority wants something then they get it. Poor or otherwise.

[QUOTE=Mesatecala]A few last things before I go to bed...

How do you know I'm from Spain?

I didn't know you are from Spain, I though you were from the USA, so your contry (USA) and mine (Spain) was refered to two diferents countries. You have a really american way of thinking, anyway. ;)

If the middle class are the backbone, then the poor are the driving force overall.
It makes no sense keeping the poor, poor. What he is ATTEMPTING to do is make the poor less poor. Prove otherwise. PLEASE!

The middle class were rich- now that is threathened. No wonder they don't like him. In a democracy, the majority rules (personally it a stupid form of govt) and therefore if the majority wants something then they get it. Poor or otherwise.

The middle class actually supported him in the first election. And no, they were not the rich. Chavez is not making the poor less poor. And you can't prove otherwise. Man your arguments are total contradiction with no facts.

I really must get going. This is getting tiring. If you decide you want to talk like an adult, tell me.

[QUOTE=Mesatecala]A few last things before I go to bed...

How do you know I'm from Spain?

I didn't know you are from Spain, I though you were from the USA, so your contry (USA) and mine (Spain) was refered to two diferents countries. You have a really american way of thinking, anyway. ;)

Well even though I live in California.. I am from Spain.

I have an Ameican way of thinking? How so? Do you know me personally?

I'm sorry, but when I read this sentence :

"We don't need some foreign idiot leader telling us how to think. This guy has a serious case of megalomania. He's a damn psychopath who doesn't even a give a shit about his own people. "

One name jumped in my mind..

What were these famous words he spoke again ? "My most important job is to protect my people". Does anyone here think the people of New Orleans would say he did a good job at that...

That's all I want to say about Bush. Because I can really not think of anyone less worthy of my energy and words.

The middle class actually supported him in the first election. And no, they were not the rich. Chavez is not making the poor less poor. And you can't prove otherwise. Man your arguments are total contradiction with no facts.

I really must get going. This is getting tiring. If you decide you want to talk like an adult, tell me.

THEN GO! And when you come back you can provide proof to your 'muderous' and 'making the contry poor' comments.

COMPARED to the poor, the middle class were rich.

Dude, you haven't provided a single teensy bit of evidence to back up any of your wild claims.

Chavez has instituted literacy and healthcare programs. <-----FACT.

I'd rather be a educated peasant then an illiterate one. He is giving them the tools to provide for themselves.

Chavez is not making the poor less poor.
It's the platform he was elected on, and he's doing what is perceived to lessen poverty.
Perhaps by stopping people from getting any richer, he's making the poor look better off.... :D
Question is either way though: Would the poor be better off if he privatised oil exports etc?

And what are you people saying about the La Paz Revolution then? Same type of platform, same type of policies and seemingly carried by a large majority for the time being?

THEN GO! And when you come back you can provide proof to your 'muderous' and 'making the contry poor' comments.

COMPARED to the poor, the middle class were rich.

Dude, you haven't provided a single teensy bit of evidence to back up any of your wild claims.

Chavez has instituted literacy and healthcare programs. <-----FACT.

I'd rather be a educated peasant then an illiterate one. He is giving them the tools to provide for themselves.

You haven't provide any fucking evidence for your statements so stop making them. I'm getting extremely frustrated at you. You provide nothing at all in the way of evidence. You just declare your ridiculous staements as fact without backing them up.

You haven't provide any fucking evidence for your statements so stop making them. I'm getting extremely frustrated at you. You provide nothing at all in the way of evidence. You just declare your ridiculous staements as fact without backing them up.You haven't backed up your claims that he's wrong...

[QUOTE=Gadiristan]

Well even though I live in California.. I am from Spain.

I have an Ameican way of thinking? How so? Do you know me personally?

OK, I don't know you personally but I meaned all that story about middle class, private sector and so. I just have your own words to judge, and I was thinking "how tipically from USA". And about the future, none of us can know what will happen, I hope that everything will be ok in Venezuela, although I'm afraid not but 50 years of middle class democracy made nothing for this 80% of poor. At least he's attempting a diferent way. And not everything is the PIB, imagine that you have no doctors or schools in 50 km around and suddenly you have for your children. The future is made step by step

You haven't provide any fucking evidence for your statements so stop making them. I'm getting extremely frustrated at you. You provide nothing at all in the way of evidence. You just declare your ridiculous staements as fact without backing them up.

HEY HEY HEY! Chill the fuck out. Go to bed and come back less grumpy.

Pick up a paper- its common and accepted fact that lieracy programs have been instituted on top of which Venez. has offered free eye care to all in the Americas- in a deal worked out with Venez money and Cuban doctors. Its available to the poorest of the US citizens too.

Thats all fact- check it of you don't believe me.

Now YOU provide some evidence to YOUR claims.

HEY HEY HEY! Chill the fuck out. Go to bed and come back less grumpy.

Pick up a paper- its common and accepted fact that lieracy programs have been instituted on top of which Venez. has offered free eye care to all in the Americas- in a deal worked out with Venez money and Cuban doctors. Its available to the poorest of the US citizens too.

Thats all fact- check it of you don't believe me.

Now YOU provide some evidence to YOUR claims.

As usual, no evidence, no citations.. and the typical nonsense. Venezuelan hospitals lack equipment.

Gadirstan: You still don't know me well enough to make generalizations like that.

You know, looking at Mesatecala reminds me of the same arguments them IDers are trying to push through. Not bothering to support their own statements while attacking their rivals in the hopes of conferring legitimacy on theirs by negating others.

Kinda like

If: A/=B

And A/=reality

Then B=Truth

Maybe if the world operated on 1s and 0s, but I don't think we're all binary are we?

And he keeps saying he's going to go but he ain't. Heh.

"I can quit. Really I can. In fact, I'm going to stop. Yup, right now. Yes, I'm going to stop" *keeps on going*

;)

Hugo Chavez has syphilis? Hahah.. i just had to say it..No...thats Jenna Bush..Shes got it.

[

Gadirstan: You still don't know me well enough to make generalizations like that.[/QUOTE]

wich generalization? I don't have made any. I just talk about my impressions.
And if Venezuela Hospitals need equipment it's just a reason to fight for and Chavez seems to be in the right way.

HEY HEY HEY! Chill the fuck out. Go to bed and come back less grumpy.

Pick up a paper- its common and accepted fact that lieracy programs have been instituted on top of which Venez. has offered free eye care to all in the Americas- in a deal worked out with Venez money and Cuban doctors. Its available to the poorest of the US citizens too.

Thats all fact- check it of you don't believe me.

Now YOU provide some evidence to YOUR claims.
Part of the problem is that here in the US, at least until very, very recently, if you want to hear anything about Chavez that wasn't partisan demogoguery (like Condi Rice saying that there wasn't a positive thing she could say about Chavez during her confirmation hearings), you had to actively search it out. The mainstream press doesn't even mention him half the time, and the Bush adminstration is actively hostile to him, as was borne out by their quick readiness to recognize the leaders of the failed coup attempt.

And even now that Chavez is getting more attention here, it's still largely of the negative kind. No one mentions the literacy programs. No one mentions the health care programs. No one mentions that the poor are making serious gains for the first time in decades because while they may not be making significantly more money, more money is being spent on them in terms of health care and education, and that will pay dividends in the long run if it keeps up. Why?

Because a lot of people are scared that if Chavez makes a go of it and shows that the poor can benefit under a system where the government uses the profits from natural resources on them rather than giving them to private corporations, that we'll demand something similar here. It's class struggle that terrifies the people in charge in the US, because they know that if the poor and middle class ever got united, the rulers would be in a world of shit. People who belong to the financial elite--or whose families do--don't want to see that happen, because if everyone does better, then they're not special anymore.

The only thing is he's not an idiot, and we also elected him.

blah blah blah blah.. anymore left wing talking points?Yes, Bush is an Idiot and He was elected by the NeoCon Judges.

Part of the problem is that here in the US, at least until very, very recently, if you want to hear anything about Chavez that wasn't partisan demogoguery (like Condi Rice saying that there wasn't a positive thing she could say about Chavez during her confirmation hearings), you had to actively search it out. The mainstream press doesn't even mention him half the time, and the Bush adminstration is actively hostile to him, as was borne out by their quick readiness to recognize the leaders of the failed coup attempt.

And even now that Chavez is getting more attention here, it's still largely of the negative kind. No one mentions the literacy programs. No one mentions the health care programs. No one mentions that the poor are making serious gains for the first time in decades because while they may not be making significantly more money, more money is being spent on them in terms of health care and education, and that will pay dividends in the long run if it keeps up. Why?

Because a lot of people are scared that if Chavez makes a go of it and shows that the poor can benefit under a system where the government uses the profits from natural resources on them rather than giving them to private corporations, that we'll demand something similar here. It's class struggle that terrifies the people in charge in the US, because they know that if the poor and middle class ever got united, the rulers would be in a world of shit. People who belong to the financial elite--or whose families do--don't want to see that happen, because if everyone does better, then they're not special anymore.

BRAVO (Claps)

*snip*

Mmm, it's mostly about maintaining the status quo isn't it? Can't say I disagree with that thought. Who in their right minds would want to lose whatever privileges that they have whether gained through fair or unfair means?

Also, I highly doubt people were chanting Chavez as he walked by or anything.
Posted on Sun, Sep. 18, 2005
Chávez gets a cheer in the Bronx

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez brought his unique political talents, and views, to the South Bronx.

NEW YORK - Clad in dark slacks and his signature red shirt representing his ''Bolivarian revolution,'' Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez took his magnetic charisma to a South Bronx community gathering Saturday -- and the people loved it.

He kissed, hugged and mixed it up with gusto with a Dominican music band, almost as if he were courting voters.

--The Miami Herald

Mmm, it's mostly about maintaining the status quo isn't it? Can't say I disagree with that thought. Who in their right minds would want to lose whatever privileges that they have whether gained through fair or unfair means?
Depends on what we're talking about--I don't lose anything if the poorer people around me get health care and enjoy a better quality of life as a result. I don't lose anything--and in fact I gain significantly--if the kids in the poorer neighborhood get a solid education and are able to contribute to society rather than turn to crime. But then again, I'm firmly ensconced in the lower middle class as far as economics are concerned, so I've got room to move upward.

But say I was rich, say I was in that top one percent that has made out like bandits under Bush's tax cuts--how many privileges would I really lose if we had a national health care system in the US? Not many, if any at all--I could still afford to get whatever care I wanted, and the rest of the nation would be better off for the service. How much would I lose if our educational system were better? Nothing--in fact, I'd gain from that.

The idea that you have to hold onto whatever privileges you have at the expense of others only matters if you're looking to exploit those who don't have those privileges. In other words, it matters if you're an asshole. (By the way, I'm not calling you an asshole--just remarking on the system as a whole.)

It would be a great honor to meet President Hugo Chavez.
I agree. I believe that he is a much greater man than Bush. Maybe he gets Email? Viva Hugo Chavez!

Edit: Oh he does! hugo.chavez@presedencia.gob.vz

Depends on what we're talking about--I don't lose anything if the poorer people around me get health care and enjoy a better quality of life as a result. I don't lose anything--and in fact I gain significantly--if the kids in the poorer neighborhood get a solid education and are able to contribute to society rather than turn to crime. But then again, I'm firmly ensconced in the lower middle class as far as economics are concerned, so I've got room to move upward.

But say I was rich, say I was in that top one percent that has made out like bandits under Bush's tax cuts--how many privileges would I really lose if we had a national health care system in the US? Not many, if any at all--I could still afford to get whatever care I wanted, and the rest of the nation would be better off for the service. How much would I lose if our educational system were better? Nothing--in fact, I'd gain from that.

The idea that you have to hold onto whatever privileges you have at the expense of others only matters if you're looking to exploit those who don't have those privileges. In other words, it matters if you're an asshole. (By the way, I'm not calling you an asshole--just remarking on the system as a whole.)

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying (miscommunication due to poor sentence wording on my part). I'm just saying that there are those who simply want to maintain the status quo not merely because they think they will suffer, but rather, do not want to see others rising out of their 'class'. One only has to look at how employment bias as well as the glass ceiling to see it at work.

And of course there is the exploitation system. Most manufacturing companies survive by exploiting the labour they have. If it is cheaper, all the better. Of course there are minimal standards, but if corners can be cut, they will be. Things like healthcare and insurance come to mind.

The speech sounds very nice, but there is alot to pick at here, supporters like the Reverend Jesse Jackson, some Reverend. Congressman Jose Serrano, Pastors for Peace, some Pastors they are not. Ricardo Alarcon, member of adictatorship government. Actor Danny Globber.

Viva Fidel, Viva Cuba not, if they only knew life as it really is in Cuba. Yes free Education, Free Healthcare, Compulsory volunteer work brigades, Commitees for the defense of the Revolution, ration cards, stores where you buy certain products only with convertible Cuban Pesos, that is hard foreign currency, sent by overseas relatives converted into convertible Cuban Pesos, Hotels and restaurants for tourists only, Hospitals for tourist, foreigners, and privliged government elite only, power blackouts every day, bikes for transportation, overcrowed busses Cubans call the pill, you take one every 4 hours, etc, etc, etc.

I have to go now and take care of some important government business, so I cant stay and comment further for now, perhaps later.

and we also elected him.

No, we didn't. 50% of the voting public voted for him. 51 to 48 pecent of a wider majority of 50% who actually vote
come on now

I think it's highly amusing that the same people who support the war in Iraq on the basis that it gave the people democracy call Chavez, a person loved by his people and democratically elected, to be an evil opressor who should be shot. Do they think that right wing dictators like Pinochet would be preferable?

Face it - Chavez is a good man who genuinely cares for the poor and whose people love him. I know that some people think that it is far better for thousands of people to live in enforced poverty with no free education so they can succeed than for the government to take an amount of money from the rich who don't need the amount they have, but if his people love him so much, who are you to argue?

This guy has a serious case of megalomania. He's a damn psychopath who doesn't even a give a shit about his own people.

Which begs the question why Bush doesn't get along with him? Given they have so much in common.

I think it's highly amusing that the same people who support the war in Iraq on the basis that it gave the people democracy call Chavez, a person loved by his people and democratically elected, to be an evil opressor who should be shot. Do they think that right wing dictators like Pinochet would be preferable?

Face it - Chavez is a good man who genuinely cares for the poor and whose people love him. I know that some people think that it is far better for thousands of people to live in enforced poverty with no free education so they can succeed than for the government to take an amount of money from the rich who don't need the amount they have, but if his people love him so much, who are you to argue?
And even if he's the maniac the right-wing tries to make him out to be (and he isn't), the fact is that he won the election, an election that had UN inspectors out the ass in order to make sure it was done fairly and correctly. That's more than you can say for the US (as far as the inspectors are concerned *cough*Diebold*cough*).

Here's the first cite I could find describing Chavez' efforts to helpthe poor in Venezuela that did not come from a biased source:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?eo20050829a1.htm

Now, mesadecacita or whatever your name is, please provide one cite that Chavez has murdered the opposition.

Oh, and here is onefrom a human rights watch group that implicates the Colombian government with supporting the paramilitary groups that are murdering the opposition.

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/americas/colombia.html

I guess this is part of his economic plan.

Ok, long discussion here.

With all respect to everybody, let me explain you some things. Most of them come from my perspective, a citizen of a South American country:

1) Chavez, Castro, Lula and Jack of all trades:

After an infamous 70's decade, fulled with military goverments, that killed and disapeared people all over this place, after the systematic destruction and the teaching of: Left wing is evil, comunism is the way to hell and Krushev, Marx, Lennin, Stalin, guevara and Castro are Satan himself, after all of that we have had right winged goverments.

What are the results of those goverments? Well, for Chile they worked pretty fine (if fine includes that 1 % of the population is wealthy and the rest is surviving). Today I read in the newspaper that there were manifestations in chile about this subject.

In my country, Argentina, in Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Brasil and the rest of South America, they created a BIG poberty. Here, in Argentina, 50 % of the citizens live under the line of poberty (UN facts, and our own stadistics department facts).

I know it's our fault. i don't blame the US, Europe or anybody else. If we are stupid, just recognize you defects.

BUT here's the deal. Most of the poberty was created because we had to pay money we borrowed from IMF. Don't get me wrong: WE HAVE TO PAY IT. What puts me down is this:

If I give you 5 bucks to feed you family or make and inverstment but instead of using it you spend them in a guitar.... would I loan you money again?

And if I did, and you do the same... would I loan money to you for a third time?

Think about it...

Now, you must add this to that logical statement: I know you won't be able to pay because I know you won't use the money the way you are supposted to...

That's what I blame. I blame my own goverment for stealing the money they asked to make this a better country. And I blame the ones who gave the money because they knew we wouldn't be able to pay it back and therefore we would be hungry if we didn't. Now we are paying and people is hungry...

So, here and now, 2005, after 20 years of right winged goverments, left side appears. Chavez in Venezuela, Lula in Brasil.... maybe owr president although I don't think he is enterely left winged.

People are sick of liberals and conservative goverments who help only a few. Now people want to try the other side o the story. Left ideas are no longer taboo. People is able to think again and young generations are seeing something is wrong and they are trying to change it.

2) About People rights:

Well... I would a jerk if I don't accept that Chavez breaks them.. hey, I don't live in venezuela and I may be wrong, but I trully believe he does. But I also believe he is trying to create a new block, a south american block, where all the countries in this region can fight together for what's right for them.

Castro... well he is unique. I can't really say something good or bad about him because I have heard both sides of the story. If you ask me... I wonder what would it be if Cuba were a different country, with a different terrain and more posibilities for agriculture. I also believe Castro is the regimen, and as soon as he's dead, Cuba's comunist regiment will fall.

I'm not trying to defend any of this political faces, I'm just trying to show you they way we see it from down here.

By the way:

1) Bush has no support here. We think he is the self-imposed King of the World and that he believes he has the right to do whatever he thinks he must. I just wonder the true goals behind everything.

2) Terrorism sucks. I wish people would spto doing such a stupid thing, attacking civil people.

Chavez is not thinking about the long term. You see.. I'm a long term thinker.
lol! From what I've seen in most of the threads you post in, you just think "taxes suck!"

lol! From what I've seen in most of the threads you post in, you just think "taxes suck!"

But its so true.

Chavez is not my president, nor yours, he got there by democratic means, and, as a socialist in their back yard the US took the stance it has taken to all socialist leaders. Let them run their own country, then, one day they might come to trust the US, and anti US rhetoric won't be a vote winner.

Look at Cuba, Fidel still hasn't held a general election as promised after the revolution, why? Because over the water there is a big threatening country, a tiger (paper or otherwise) to justify the status-quo.

The cold war is over, you won! I'm honesty glad that the USSR fell, now let democracy, real democracy, happen. Encourage it, if you think they chose the wrong man then try and persuade them, I understood the free exchange of ideas to be sacred to the American, let it become so everywhere.

Look at Cuba, Fidel still hasn't held a general election as promised after the revolution...

Hey! There are elections in Cuba! Castro is the only one running for the goverment... but at least there are.

LOL

Often I hear people compare left-wing countries to capitalist, and say they've failed, the left comes to power often because a nation lacks all the advantages that we claim we can bring. Cuba stands up better against other dictatorships, not all rosy granted, but it’s been in a precarious situation. And Venezuela? I don't know, and nor do most of you, Chavez is no angel, but the US has caused quite enough blood to be spilled in South America for no real gain I can see, there was some justification for it when communism was threatening to take over the world, but now?

This them verses us mentality to the left must end, if it doesn’t work out for them, they fail, it's no skin off our noses, if it does, good for them, maybe they have some ideas worth thinking about. People all across the world are only trying to get the same things that Americans fought, and forged a nation for. Good luck to them!

This them verses us mentality to the left must end, if it doesn’t work out for them, they fail, it's no skin off our noses, if it does, good for them, maybe they have some ideas worth thinking about. People all across the world are only trying to get the same things that Americans fought, and forged a nation for. Good luck to them!
Given the crushing embargo that Cuba has had to live with, its performance has been outstanding. They have the best education system in the region, their people are fed and sheltered, and their health system is better than their "developed" neighbour to the north. By normal rules, Cuba should be a festering swamp of poverty and death. But they've somehow managed to pull through, helped no doubt by their fiery spirit of independence. If the embargo was never applied, Cuba would probably be a first-world country. Which, according to America, would be a problem.

Given the crushing embargo that Cuba has had to live with, its performance has been outstanding. They have the best education system in the region, their people are fed and sheltered, and their health system is better than their "developed" neighbour to the north. By normal rules, Cuba should be a festering swamp of poverty and death. But they've somehow managed to pull through, helped no doubt by their fiery spirit of independence. If the embargo was never applied, Cuba would probably be a first-world country. Which, according to America, would be a problem.

I've always thought that people seem to dismiss all left wing countries as "unsuccessful" without looking at the bigger picture. After all, say if Communist Russia hadn't gotten a twat like Stalin running it, hadn't tried to compete militarily with the US and hadn't gotten into a space race. 30% of Russias GDP was spent on the military - if that had being spent elsewhere, who is to say how successful it could have being, considering it started out a pre industrial nation?

Personally I think Communism is not the way forward, and socialism mixed with capitalism is far preferable, but that is not to say that more extreme left wing countries can't ever succeed.

I agree with my learned colleague above:)

Capitalism alone does not create a wealthy nation.

And yet when you mention capitalistic countries like Haiti, and so on an so forth...that are still desperately poor...all the context is brought in to explain why capitalism failed, or can not function properly. So let's make that context admisible in ALL analysis of economic models.

Welcome back Sinuhue, I thought you had left us, I did miss you some, but welcome back Sinuhue.
La Habana Cuba.

hugo chavez is a good democratically elected leader for venezuela

Am I the only one to see his Idi Amin like qualities?

Well don't be all crying when suriname has to invade.

Am I the only one to see his Idi Amin like qualities?
Yes, I believe you are, unless you have proof that Chavez is a psychotic, mass-murdering dictator as opposed to a democratically elected president loved by a large segment of his people.

After the Soviet Union fell apart, what saved Fidel Castro's government was trade, tourists and diplomatic relations with the European Union nations, and making the US $ Dollar legal in Cuba, and opening stores that sell only in $ Dollars and Euros, sent to them by thier Cuban American and European relatives, the same ones' the Cuban government calls intransigent, worms and the Miami Cuban Mafia, and not in Cuban Pesos thier national currency.

Most Cuban Americans and European Cubans support an international embargo by the democratic nations but at the same time absent that, care about thier relatives to send them $ American Dollars or Euros. So Fidel Castro knowing this forced them to help in this way.


If no Cuban American had sent a $ Dollar and no European Nation had traded with Cuba that governmet would have fallen apart from withinn along time ago, that is a fact.

The so-called embargo has a big hole, Cuba buys from the USA on a pay as you buy cash basis and American subduary companies around the world trade with Cuba.

Cuba produces about 50 percent of its oil, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela provides about 100,000 barrels of oil a day or about 45 percent of Cuba's needs at low prices $ and preferential terms of payment.

According to the government, Cuba produces 600 million cubic meters of natural gas a year, which according to the Cuban government is a triumph of the revolution.

Yet there are power blackout shortages in Cuba everyday, but they dont affect the restaurants and hotels for tourists only, and Cubans have to ask thier American
and European relatives for everyhing, from medicine and eyeglasses to toilet paper, I am not exaggerating.

Yes there is free education and healthcare in Cuba, including compulsory voluntary work brigades, Commitees for the defense of the Revolution, ration cards, restaurants and hotels for tourists only, hospitals for foreigners and the governing privileged elite only, bikes and on foot are the common means of transportation, overcrowded buses Cubans call the pill, you take one every 4 hours.

All this trade and diplomatic relations and there are no economic, political and social reforms by the Cuban government, lets just ask former political prisoner Oswaldo Paya, what happend to his Varela Project referendum, for reforms and a democratic process to bring it about should the referendum pass, as used to be allowed for under the Cuban Constitution?

The former Pope, and President Jimmy Carter publicly asked Fidel Castro for economic, political and social reforms in Cuba and were ignored.

I think it's highly amusing that the same people who support the war in Iraq on the basis that it gave the people democracy call Chavez, a person loved by his people and democratically elected, to be an evil opressor who should be shot. Do they think that right wing dictators like Pinochet would be preferable?

Face it - Chavez is a good man who genuinely cares for the poor and whose people love him. I know that some people think that it is far better for thousands of people to live in enforced poverty with no free education so they can succeed than for the government to take an amount of money from the rich who don't need the amount they have, but if his people love him so much, who are you to argue?

Chavez is not a good man. Lets face it, plenty of times people have been democratically elected and plenty of times they have abused their own power. Take the person I compare Chavez to most often... democratically elected former Ecuadorian President "El Loco" Abdala Bucaram.

You people think that even if he was democratically elected he is a sound, fit, competent.. and excellent leader. I strongly disagree. There is more to it then just a democratic election. There are other qualities.

You know, looking at Mesatecala reminds me of the same arguments them IDers are trying to push through. Not bothering to support their own statements while attacking their rivals in the hopes of conferring legitimacy on theirs by negating others.


My how wrong... I just look at the facts. I'm not an IDer. So please don't bullshit.

I have visited Canada once, when I went to Niagra Falls, The Dominican Republic twice, Puerto Rico twice, the first time I stayed at a Hotel, the second time I stayed at the home of a Puerto Rican family friends of mine.

I visited Venezuela once, before Hugo Chavez when I and my family went to greed and help settle a relative of mine who emigrated legally from Cuba via Venezuela.

It cost me and my family $ money to get them out of Cuba's paradise government, but I dont regret the Cost $.

As for the fairness of the referendum election in Venezuela that President Jimmy Carter monitored and declared fair, according to jimmy Carter himself and Cesar Gaviria, they were not allowed into the main building were the balots were officially counted.

Since then Venezuela held local elections for mayors and governors were most of the opposition did not participate because they did not trust the fairness of the election process and were voter turnout was arount 30 percent, so naturally Chavez supporters won big.

I can find the official information if I have too.

Yes, I believe you are, unless you have proof that Chavez is a psychotic, mass-murdering dictator as opposed to a democratically elected president loved by a large segment of his people.


Well, I'll discount you, obviously, as you know nothing about Idi Amin.

There are however, striking parallels.

Well, I'll discount you, obviously, as you know nothing about Idi Amin. I assume you're talking about this Idi Amin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin)
Idi Amin Dada Oumee (c. 1925 Koboko, Uganda, – August 16, 2003, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia) was an army officer and President of Uganda (1971 to 1979) whose regime was notorious for its brutality.

Amin's tenure witnessed much sectarian violence, including the persecution of the Acholi, Lango, and other tribes in Uganda. Reports of the torture and murder of 300,000 to 500,000 Ugandans during Amin's presidency have been widespread since the 1970s.
I remember his overthrow vaguely from my childhood, but based on the article I just linked to, I don't see many linkages, other than their starts as soldiers and their friendships with revolutionary leaders. Amin took over in a coup--Chavez tried, was defeated, spent time in jail and eventually got both elected and re-elected. Amin murdered lots of people and tossed others out of the country because he was insane. Chavez has done nothing like that.

So pray, enlighten me as to the similarities.

I don't have much time, but in response to a few things on the first page:

We don't need some foreign idiot leader telling us how to think. This guy has a serious case of megalomania. He's a damn psychopath who doesn't even a give a shit about his own people.

Quiet a post. Full of damning rebutles and supported by hard facts. :rolleyes:

Has anyone else noticed the Idi Amin like quality of this man?

No.

I have to question this entire article.. living in new york I've heard none of this, and I find it hard to belive all of the news outlets say this one (rather questionable source) picked up on the Preisdent of Venezuela visting New York

I wonder why mainstream media wouldn't "pick up on this?" LOL.

But alas, some did (in a biased way of course): http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1136514&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

And why would anyone in the US be chanting CHavez anyway ?

Because they like him? Just a guess, but you'd have to ask the 2,500 in attendance (that came on 2 days notice).

... I have (atleast some) confidence the average american is able to see his claims of wanting to help the poor for what they are (PR campeign) to look good back at home (anti american administration).

I guess the figures he mentioned were imaginary.

Of course Castro followed suit but I feel the Bush administration made the wrong move turning him down. We should have accepted those 1000 doctors. And when they defected after they got here... We of course accept and give them refuge.. the whole thing would have blown up in Castros face.

Cuba has sent 150,000+ doctors abroad since the revolution and 13 have defected.

He can shut up. He's an imbecile and nobody cares about them.

Nobody? What about the 2,500 in attendence? Or the millions of supporters he has around the world?

"Before ending, Chavez told the crowd that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, as well as sizeable gas deposits, and that they wanted to share them with everyone. "

No. The largest reserves are in Canada and Saudi Arabia.

Oh? Some people disagree.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1678
http://www.alia2.net/article126179.html
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntl52930.htm
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3273

And a few of the more hilarious responses.

Also, I highly doubt people were chanting Chavez as he walked by or anything.

Doubt all you wish, it happened.

"Chavez gets a cheer in the Bronx"
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/12676844.htm

"During his three-day tour of New York City, President Chavez visited the South Bronx. At night, he addressed a packed audience at the Saint Paul and Saint Andrew Methodist Church on the Upper West Side."
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/1336220

Oh yeah, i agree with you on that. I severely doubt that there were a bunch of Noo Yawkers chanting 'Viva Fidel' for some reason. i doubt the veracity of that article- i feel it is exaggerated also.

LOL!!!!

Fidel ALWAYS receives a warm welcome when he comes to New York. You should try reading something before you make assertions!

"Almost 1,600 Harlemites and solidarity activists packed the Abyssinian Baptist Church to give a hero’s welcome to Fidel Castro, the president of Cuba."

"Back in the 'hood: Castro cheered in Harlem church, blared the headline of the October 23 New York Daily News, covering nearly the entire front page. It was Castro's second appearance in Harlem, which he first visited 35 years ago, shortly after the triumph of the Cuban revolution (see article on page 10).

The nearly 1,600 people who packed the church at the ticketed rally gave the Cuban leader a rousing welcome. A ten-minute standing ovation greeted Castro."

"In Harlem, Fidel was cheered and applauded by the roaring crowd yelling, "Fidel, Fidel, Viva Cuba, Viva Cuba!""

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,11128926%255E10949,00.html
http://www.pww.org/archives95/95-10-28-2.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/039.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/038.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/610.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/14/174110.shtml

I assume you're talking about this Idi Amin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin)

I remember his overthrow vaguely from my childhood, but based on the article I just linked to, I don't see many linkages, other than their starts as soldiers and their friendships with revolutionary leaders. Amin took over in a coup--Chavez tried, was defeated, spent time in jail and eventually got both elected and re-elected. Amin murdered lots of people and tossed others out of the country because he was insane. Chavez has done nothing like that.

So pray, enlighten me as to the similarities.

It's exactly the same. Amin seized the property of the Ugandan Asians (Check - chavez has already seized property): Offering fianacial aid to the first world, depsite most of his own country living in abject poverty (Check). Ability to obtian interviews from the western press that do not describe the atrocities that his government have already carried out (Check).

That's enough.

When it get's really bad, rememeber this.

My how wrong... I just look at the facts. I'm not an IDer. So please don't bullshit.

My, how poor your reading comprehension is. One might even think that English is not a language you have proficiency in. Either that, or you have distinctive proficiency in selective reading.

Nowhere did I indicate that you were an IDer. Instead, I pointed out that your argument style was the same as that of an IDer. That is, you attack your rival rather than support your own statements. Let us observe the facts in this thread. The facts of your own posts that is.

Attack rival views: True
Create opposing statement: True
Support said statement: False

Where are your so-called "facts" hmmm? Will you come up empty handed? Or will you instead, produce highly unreliable sources, particularly ones that are heavily biased?

Either way, you have done nothing to date to support any of your statements.

It's exactly the same. Amin seized the property of the Ugandan Asians (Check - chavez has already seized property): Offering fianacial aid to the first world, depsite most of his own country living in abject poverty (Check). Ability to obtian interviews from the western press that do not describe the atrocities that his government have already carried out (Check).

That's enough.

When it get's really bad, rememeber this.
I suppose you could equate the theft of personal property with the nationalizing of a state resource, but I wouldn't--I find them to be quite different. Secondly, his people, while still poor, are a damn sight better off than they were before he took over. Reform takes time, but improvements are being made. Thirdly, if anything, the western press has been tremendously one-sided--against him. No credible evidence has come up about any atrocities commited by him or his government.

So yeah--they're exactly alike, except where they're completely different. Which is everywhere.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1678
http://www.alia2.net/article126179.html
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntl52930.htm
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3273

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn20664.htm

From your gas and oil source.. it seems under closer inspection it is actually Canada that has the largest reserves.

Canada has 300 bn recoverable crude.

"The worlds largest oil reserve is not lying under Saudi Arabian deserts or under the sea, it is clinging to grains of sand in the Canadian boreal forest of Northern Alberta. Between 1.7 tn and 2.5 tn barrels of crude oil, 300 bn of which are expected to be recoverable, are spread like topsoil across thousands of sq km of Alberta forest and tundra. "

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntl52930.htm

Chavez says that Venezuela's estimated 78 bn barrels together with an estimated 238 bn barrels of tar oil in the Orinoco Heavy Oil Belt make it "the largest petroleum reserves in the world."

---

So it in actuality it is Canada that has more. As technology improves, the nearly 2.5 TRILLION barrels of crude in Canada will become more accessible. Though only 300 million are recoverable, that number will increase as technology improves. Also Chavez statements are without proof. The state of Venezuela has to prove it has these reserves. Canada has already done so. In fact Canada is looking at investments in the tens of billions by various companies.

My, how poor your reading comprehension is. One might even think that English is not a language you have proficiency in. Either that, or you have distinctive proficiency in selective reading.

Actually it seems like you have reading proficiency shortcomings, not me. I know english very well.

Nowhere did I indicate that you were an IDer. Instead, I pointed out that your argument style was the same as that of an IDer. That is, you attack your rival rather than support your own statements. Let us observe the facts in this thread. The facts of your own posts that is.

But you did compare me to an IDer in my methods. No. I actually use evidence to back myself up. You on the other hand.. have never managed to do that.

I suppose you could equate the theft of personal property with the nationalizing of a state resource, but I wouldn't--I find them to be quite different. Secondly, his people, while still poor, are a damn sight better off than they were before he took over. Reform takes time, but improvements are being made. Thirdly, if anything, the western press has been tremendously one-sided--against him. No credible evidence has come up about any atrocities commited by him or his government.

So yeah--they're exactly alike, except where they're completely different. Which is everywhere.

No I am not equating them. And there are plenty of people already talking about his government's tyranical actions.


And you don't make the poor any better off by spending your oil surplus on stupid overseas actions of "generosity." If you can't grasp why he's a bad character from that, well then you are not a socialist. You are merely a Bush hater; devoid of any coherent political thought.

Actually it seems like you have reading proficiency shortcomings, not me. I know english very well.

Then why did you think I called you an IDer when I clearly did not? I did say your methods were the same no more, no less. And yet, you responded by indicating that you were NOT an IDer, thereby indicating that you believed that I accused you of one. Hmmm, answer that if you will.



But you did compare me to an IDer in my methods. No. I actually use evidence to back myself up. You on the other hand.. have never managed to do that.

Evidence which has yet to materialize I see. I do not need to prove the lack of evidence on your part, since anyone can clearly see the utter lack of it on this board posted by you. Perhaps when you DO post some evidence, people will believe you.

Do not claim to have evidence when you are clearly so reluctant to share it.

Or perhaps you simply do not have any and are unwilling to show it?

As for my not backing my statements on this thread, they only concern your actions to date. Actions which I am happy to say, proves my point far better than any link to an external source.

As for other threads where I have debated, links have been provided before.

But I digress, you are following the exact same methods of IDers again. Attacking others without bothering to even support any statements you have made. Even one who has pointed out your own actions by throwing the accusations back without bothering to defend yourself.

Poor show.

If it were not for the high price of world oil, Hugo Chavez's oil policy would bankrupt Venezuela, and maybe he would not be so generous with Venezuela's oil.

I wonder what would happen if the world price $ of oil were to suddendly drop considerably to a more historical level?

Evidence which has yet to materialize I see. I do not need to prove the lack of evidence on your part, since anyone can clearly see the utter lack of it on this board posted by you. Perhaps when you DO post some evidence, people will believe you.

Do not claim to have evidence when you are clearly so reluctant to share it.

Or perhaps you simply do not have any and are unwilling to show it?

You won't see it because you turn your eyes away from the truth. Unwilling? I already proved one person wrong about oil and I'm not afraid of doing it again. My posts do have a lot of evidence. Utter lack? I spend my time looking for evidence for my posts. It isn't my fault, you ignore it.

But I digress, you are following the exact same methods of IDers again. Attacking others without bothering to even support any statements you have made. Even one who has pointed out your own actions by throwing the accusations back without bothering to defend yourself.

Poor show.

Oh please, you don't have a single clue about my postings. You don't know what you are saying. I already provided evidence to plenty of statements. I have done plenty. You are the one putting up a poor show. Look at yourself and then get back to me.

If it were not for the high price of world oil, Hugo Chavez's oil policy would bankrupt Venezuela, and maybe he would not be so generous with Venezuela's oil.

I wonder what would happen if the world price $ of oil were to suddendly drop considerably to a more historical level?

How the heck is that going to happen? Do you have a time machine somewhere to stop the mass scale use of oil? If you do, let me know. I have some lottery ticket numbers that might prove useful ;)

You won't see it because you turn your eyes away from the truth. Unwilling? I already proved one person wrong about oil and I'm not afraid of doing it again. My posts do have a lot of evidence. Utter lack? I spend my time looking for evidence for my posts. It isn't my fault, you ignore it.

On this thread, you have no evidence. My point stands. You can call a lie/opinion the truth as often as you like. It won't change reality. Where is the evidence for all your accusations in this thread?

On this thread, you have no evidence. My point stands. You can call a lie/opinion the truth as often as you like. It won't change reality.

Your point is a lie and it can't stand. You are the one without evidence or a point. A lie? What fucking lies? The ones spewed out by pro-Chavez propaganda artists?

First off, I already posted evidence disproving someone of who has the largest reserves.

How the heck is that going to happen? Do you have a time machine somewhere to stop the mass scale use of oil? If you do, let me know. I have some lottery ticket numbers that might prove useful ;)

Whoo-Whoo.

What's that noise?

Oh yes, it's the clue train. Someone, a long time ago stated the difference between inelastic and elastic demand.

When he starts the death camps because it no longer works, remember that you loved him.

Your point is a lie and it can't stand. You are the one without evidence or a point. A lie? What fucking lies? The ones spewed out by pro-Chavez propaganda artists?

First off, I already posted evidence disproving someone of who has the largest reserves.

You really are quite immature you realize? Throwing back accusations instead of actually answering to them?

But that aside, I will acknowledge your only point of support, that being the link to support the statements regarding the oil deposit reserves.

However, I must ask you to provide the evidence of your other accusations, that being the ones of inflamatory nature regarding Chavez. You do not know what I speak of? Then perhaps I shall point them out.


The way he is running the country is not democratic. I don't call murdering and jailing opposition party members democratic.

This one for example, requires the burden of proof to be credible.


How is that benefitting his country? He's practically giving everything away. How can he fund education or good healthcare without money coming in? I'm sorry but it seems to me you have no concept of how a government functions.

This one on the other hand, has been refuted by Nazz I believe. In a way that has yet to be argued coherently and in a sound manner. You did however, respond by stating arguments such as "no profit coming in", which is rather ludricous, since unless the oil was not being sold at all, or if it were, at a price below cost, then there is profit.


Private companies don't give back to the state? What are you smoking? YOU KNOW WHAT CORPORATE TAXES ARE? Private industry in the US makes up a huge bulk of US tax collection. Damn... how misinformed.

Mmm, you have a breakdown of the national tax levels for this?


You people run in more circles then I imagined. I was trying to talk some common sense (like government programs need money.. this money is collected from taxes.. taxes more then often come from private industry in bulk).

Hmm, this only assumes that the nation does not have any national companies that deal in strategic resources. Perhaps you would care to post a link showing how the nationally owned oil companies in Venezuela make no money?


You don't know what you are saying.. you don't have any freaking evidence either. Since private industry makes far more money it is the other way around. NO EVIDENCE, NO ARGUMENT. Period.

Neither do you have any evidence that the income from the national companies produce less revenue for the government than a privately owned corporation who pays taxes.

Tum te tum, I think you have a few more that I would like to point out, but I shall let this be and see what you have to say so far as proving these statements go.

You really are quite immature you realize? Throwing back accusations instead of actually answering to them

You are the one without a point. I will now discard the rest of your post and put you on my ignore list. If you can't avoid childish ranting, you will not talk to me.

Whoo-Whoo.

What's that noise?

Oh yes, it's the clue train. Someone, a long time ago stated the difference between inelastic and elastic demand.

Somehow, I doubt the demand for oil is very elastic. Unless perhaps several dozen new wells and refineries were built that is. So long as the production capabilities remain as they are, and energy demand keeps going up, won't that indicate increasing oil prices? Perhaps the introduction of a holy grail in terms of cheap energy, but I don't think that will be developed very soon.


When he starts the death camps because it no longer works, remember that you loved him.

And what does that have to do with the price of oil?

I will now discard the rest of your post and put you on my ignore list.
That must be a pretty long list by now.....

That must be a pretty long list by now.....

Mmm, sounds like he is not a very good debater at all. ;)

Somehow, I doubt the demand for oil is very elastic. Unless perhaps several dozen new wells and refineries were built that is. So long as the production capabilities remain as they are, and energy demand keeps going up, won't that indicate increasing oil prices? Perhaps the introduction of a holy grail in terms of cheap energy, but I don't think that will be developed very soon.

*stupid voice* "Somehow, I doubt the demand for oil is very elastic."

So then I suppose there is nothing wrong with present consumption patterns?






And what does that have to do with the price of oil?

Everything, obviously,

So then I suppose there is nothing wrong with present consumption patterns?
I would think primarily something is wrong with the current investment patterns as far as refining capacity is concerned...

*stupid voice* "Somehow, I doubt the demand for oil is very elastic."

So then I suppose there is nothing wrong with present consumption patterns?

Overall, hasn't the price of oil been steadily increasing over the years? Not to mention the demand for it that is.


Everything, obviously,

Death camps are related to oil production and prices? Really, I don't see how the two are linked.

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn20664.htm

From your gas and oil source.. it seems under closer inspection it is actually Canada that has the largest reserves.

Canada has 300 bn recoverable crude.

"The worlds largest oil reserve is not lying under Saudi Arabian deserts or under the sea, it is clinging to grains of sand in the Canadian boreal forest of Northern Alberta. Between 1.7 tn and 2.5 tn barrels of crude oil, 300 bn of which are expected to be recoverable, are spread like topsoil across thousands of sq km of Alberta forest and tundra. "

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntl52930.htm

Chavez says that Venezuela's estimated 78 bn barrels together with an estimated 238 bn barrels of tar oil in the Orinoco Heavy Oil Belt make it "the largest petroleum reserves in the world."

---

So it in actuality it is Canada that has more. As technology improves, the nearly 2.5 TRILLION barrels of crude in Canada will become more accessible. Though only 300 million are recoverable, that number will increase as technology improves. Also Chavez statements are without proof. The state of Venezuela has to prove it has these reserves. Canada has already done so. In fact Canada is looking at investments in the tens of billions by various companies.

What about the entirety of the rest of my two posts, where I refuted all the other statements?

Ah.. anyway.. Those links point out that Chavez asserts that Venezuela has the largest oil deposits, that they very well may, and that tests are being run to find out now. So you can't rule out his statement as incorrect if the tests are still ongoing.