NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems some of the most amazing things happen at the oddest times. Much to the dismay of most here I imagine, just now CNN reports North Korea agreeing to drop necular wepons program.

Many here would have predicted doom for the future, N. Korea being the true threat. Koodos to George's 6 way talks and dipolmatic path. Diplomacy it seems.. is not dead

It seems Kim Jong got just what he wanted all along ;)

And all he had to do was put a gun to our heads.

I need to see a story for this...

I don't think they'll go the same way as Muammar Qadafi (dictator of Libya).

It seems Kim Jong got just what he wanted all along ;)

And all he had to do was put a gun to our heads.

well there are few details yet.. though some points of course are them opening up to inspections and returning to the NPT. I have my reservations that N. Korea got much of what it wanted. Kim Jong Ill has a history of playing chicken... perhaps this time he just swerved early. Though, I'm sure he'll get just enough to maintain his regiem (the goal of all true dictators in the end)

I need to see a story for this...

I don't think they'll go the same way as Muammar Qadafi (dictator of Libya).

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/09/19/korea.north.talks/index.html

It seems some of the most amazing things happen at the oddest times. Much to the dismay of most here I imagine, just now CNN reports North Korea agreeing to drop necular wepons program.

Many here would have predicted doom for the future, N. Korea being the true threat. Koodos to George's 6 way talks and dipolmatic path. Diplomacy it seems.. is not dead
Yeah, don't forget that Saddam Hussien was going to let the weapons unspectors back in for a while there too.
;)
"I'm so ronery. So ronery ..."

It seems some of the most amazing things happen at the oddest times. Much to the dismay of most here I imagine, just now CNN reports North Korea agreeing to drop necular wepons program.

Many here would have predicted doom for the future, N. Korea being the true threat. Koodos to George's 6 way talks and dipolmatic path. Diplomacy it seems.. is not deadAnd whom do you think likes the DPRK having nukes? Anyway, kudos where they are due: China. It wasn't George's idea to let NK keep its nuclear power plants.

And whom do you think likes the DPRK having nukes? Anyway, kudos where they are due: China. It wasn't George's idea to let NK keep its nuclear power plants.

true true, and while its not clear to me that they are now preimited to keep those plants (which i would find to be rather foolish) China wouldn't even be in the mix if not for the Bush's hard stance on 6 way talks. Its all about togetherness in the end ^_^

I do believe that having China at the table was a major contribution to the peaceful resolution. Of course, in my opinion, any ruler willing to engage in the kind of brinkmanship Kim Jong Il has ought to be removed from power; but I suppose we'll have to settle for this. Personal feelings about the Democratic People's Republic (I still laugh at that title) aside, it is good that, through diplomacy, the parties involved were able to find a solution.

true true, and while its not clear to me that they are now preimited to keep those plants (which i would find to be rather foolish) China wouldn't even be in the mix if not for the Bush's hard stance on 6 way talks. Its all about togetherness in the end ^_^That's a better way to put than Kudos to Bush ;)
The last I heard, the proposal that NK gets to keep a nuclear program for purposes of generating power is what got the breakthrough going, and that was over the resistance of the Americans...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050919/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

Holy shit. So it is true. I didn't expect this.. I was totally off guard. Thumbs up to Bush for disarm another nation diplomatically (Libya was the other).

The path to peace is littered with lies and broken promises.

Maybe it is truth, but that is only maybe.

I am wondering what the Chinese are getting for this....

I am wondering what the Chinese are getting for this....

I actually wonder how much pressure the Chinese had to apply to the North Koreans to get this...

This seems a pretty valid promise or so I hope.

LOL

like the Chinese need to pressure the North Koreans into doing something.. :rolleyes:

I would say it took maybe a phone call to the dear leader.

But the people of North Korea are still starving right?

LOL

like the Chinese need to pressure the North Koreans into doing something.. :rolleyes:

I would say it took maybe a phone call to the dear leader.Aren't the Chinese just as boggled with North Korean diplomatic ties as are the Americans? As far as I know they have plenty of problems with the DPRK of their own and most certainly don't control them.

Hey lookie, kids! Bush's policies worked - who would have thought :) .

Remember, North Korea really wanted to keep China (and the others) out and go unilateral with the US in talks, but Bush repeatedly turned them down.

Really, though, this is a pleasant development. Kim Jong-Il isn't a total psychopath, just a normal conniving totalitarian who knows when it is smart to take the deal when both sides show moves of goodwill. Now, the only potential future issue is if North Korea is embroiled in China v. Japan tension over Senkaku and Taiwan (ex Japan starts cranking out nukes).

North Korea is to China as Mussolini's Italy was to Hitler's Germany.

But the people of North Korea are still starving right?

Well, it is the US feeding them mostly. :)

It seems like North Korea are in fact ending their entire nuclear weapons program.

So when the North breaks this agreement do we start talking to them again or do we finally get to get rid of them once and for all? I am surprised that they agreed, but to be honest I was hoping that they wouldn't give them up so we could send them to the UN to face possible military action. I don't want to go to war for the nuclear reasons, just because of the hardships the North Koreans have to face at the hands of the regime.

So, anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for the North to break the agreement this time?

I think the North Koreans are going to take the same route as the Libyans. I don't think they will break it.

North Korea is to China as Mussolini's Italy was to Hitler's Germany.Bullshit. China is much freer than North Korea.

Bullshit. China is much freer than North Korea.
I didn't mean in terms of freedom. It always seems like China is bailing out it's incompetent friend, maybe China will one day take NK to go see the bunny rabbits.

I think the North Koreans are going to take the same route as the Libyans. I don't think they will break it.

So you don't mind Kim Jong Il getting away with massive crimes against humanity?

So NK agreed on something? Okay, but. Someone also once said, "Peace in our time."

I didn't mean in terms of freedom. It always seems like China is bailing out it's incompetent friend, maybe China will one day take NK to go see the bunny rabbits.Then your comparison sucked pretty bad.

So NK agreed on something? Okay, but. Someone also once said, "Peace in our time."That someone got briefed regularly on intelligence reports by the next guy in charge. He was buying time for the Royal Airforce, which turned out to be a damn good investment.

That someone got briefed regularly on intelligence reports by the next guy in charge. He was buying time for the Royal Airforce, which turned out to be a damn good investment.

Yea, but this time we don't need to buy time.

Yea, but this time we don't need to buy time.But we did anyway, by invading the place we thought was getting what NK was getting.

We're already embroiled in iraq, I don't think we want to get involved in North Korea at present... anyway, however much of a shitehole the DRPK is, it would not be a walkover, even without nuclear weapons... mountainous terrain and a massive, if poorly equipped military... a real second Vietnam.

So, anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for the North to break the agreement this time?
I'll bet three seco-- time's up. I'm pretty sure they broke it already.

That someone got briefed regularly on intelligence reports by the next guy in charge. He was buying time for the Royal Airforce, which turned out to be a damn good investment.

In retrospect, yes...

And what are we buying time for here? For more North Koreans to be oppressed and slaughtered, China to get larger and more powerful? This kind of reminds me of how many times Saddam said he was complying with this or that too.

The funny part being, a few days ago I almost started a thread asking "Any news about 6-party talks?". Seemed like nothing was happening.

Ohh well, daily show will be fun tomorrow.

The DPRK simply cant fund a nukes program, altho selling nuke producing capital would be one hell of a revenue boost, which would be very nice for them right now, with China's looming economic power they just want to get on the band wagon.

However DPRK hasn't got a whole lot of friends to sell their capital to, whilst there are plenty of countries wanting nuclear capabilities, DPRK isnt keen to sell to alot of people, chances are that the DPRK has noticed how nice things are for China right now and are trying to seem nice (by doing the right things) to (again) get on the band wagon,

Whilst saying this i dont doubt that the NthKorea's would start to clap if a war broke out between China and Japan or China and the US, however i dont think they would be marching into China offering assistance, just cause both the DPRK and China are communist countries does not mean they actually like each other!

This is gonna sound nasty but its honestly true,

NK wont end up another Nam cause we would just send the SK's in for us
(which could denifately result in another genoside)

like the Poms did to the Aussies NZ's and Canadians in WW1 & WW2,

(Although as an Aussie ide say proudly that Aussies NZ's and Canadians would have fought harder and longer than any Poms)

This is gonna sound nasty but its honestly true,

NK wont end up another Nam cause we would just send the SK's in for us
(which could denifately result in another genoside)

like the Poms did to the Aussies NZ's and Canadians in WW1 & WW2,

(Although as an Aussie ide say proudly that Aussies NZ's and Canadians would have fought harder and longer than any Poms)The South Koreans don't really have what it takes to properly sustain an invasion of North Korea. North Korea just has too many men. South Korea isn't exactly all that willing to play America's puppet, either. There's a lot of compassion squandered there too.

So you don't mind Kim Jong Il getting away with massive crimes against humanity?

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

These are some of the most interesting parts, I think:

The joint statement also includes a pledge that Pyongyang and Washington will "respect each other's sovereignty, exist peacefully together and take steps to normalize their relations" -- a considerable change in the tone in relations between the nations.


The US has categorically refused to recognise the sovereignty of the DPRK until now. If they've changed their minds, it's a big step forward.


In Monday's statement, "the United States affirmed that is has no nuclear weapons on the Korean Peninsula and has no intention to attack or invade the DPRK with nuclear or conventional weapons," fulfilling North Korea's desire for a security pledge from the United States.


Which is one of the main things the DPRK had been asking for for ages.

It seems the DPRK and the US were both able, for once, to prove reasonable and willing to make concessions. I never thought the day would come. Until now, they've basically been flinging demands at each other they both knew the other would not (and often could not) agree too. I'm very pleased that's changed now. Congratulations to all members of the 6-party talks.

(Incidentally, an excellent book on the recent history of the Korean peninsula, and its relations with the US, is The Two Koreas, by Don Oberdorfer.)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050919/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

Holy shit. So it is true. I didn't expect this.. I was totally off guard. Thumbs up to Bush for disarm another nation diplomatically (Libya was the other).
Yes, this definitely is good news. I like that many of these dictators are seeing that the West is getting serious about their wacky schemes now.

Yes, this definitely is good news. I like that many of these dictators are seeing that the West is getting serious about their wacky schemes now.
Don't be too quick about this though...

The DPRK has got a deal that they will be supplied with a functioning Light Water Reactor, and that the US will "normalise" relations with them.
I'd be suprised if the US would actually be forthcoming with this, which leads us straight into another few months of negotiations.

Plenty enuff time to store another few warheads in some hole in the mountains.

It seems some of the most amazing things happen at the oddest times. Much to the dismay of most here I imagine, just now CNN reports North Korea agreeing to drop necular wepons program.

Many here would have predicted doom for the future, N. Korea being the true threat. Koodos to George's 6 way talks and dipolmatic path. Diplomacy it seems.. is not dead
Oh, I'm sure some on here will find the black lining in this silver cloud, if for no other reason than that it happened on President Bush's watch. Sigh. :rolleyes:

Oh, I'm sure some on here will find the black lining in this silver cloud, if for no other reason than that it happened on President Bush's watch. Sigh. :rolleyes:
Well, apart from an apparent lack of George being involved with any of this (other than in "picture on the wall"-form), I am sceptical about a sudden 180° turn by that most undeplomatic of nations, the DPRK.
I just tend to ignore the "good on Bush"-comments though, it's just flamebating.

Oh, I'm sure some on here will find the black lining in this silver cloud, if for no other reason than that it happened on President Bush's watch. Sigh. :rolleyes:You're right, Eut. All of this, the DPRK developing nukes, happened on President Bush's watch. ;)

It seems some of the most amazing things happen at the oddest times. Much to the dismay of most here I imagine, just now CNN reports North Korea agreeing to drop necular wepons program.

Many here would have predicted doom for the future, N. Korea being the true threat. Koodos to George's 6 way talks and dipolmatic path. Diplomacy it seems.. is not dead
I fail to see where it says NK is going to surrender the nukes it already has.

Responding to Pyongyang's claims that it needs atomic weapons for defense, North Korea and the United States pledged to respect each other's sovereignty and right to peaceful coexistence, and also to take steps to normalize relations.

Wow.

Kim Jong-Il isn't a total psychopath, just a normal conniving totalitarian who knows when it is smart to take the deal when both sides show moves of goodwill. .Interesting...Yesterday he was "total psychopath"...and today he no longer is?

BTW...NK got back what Clinton was giving them...The same thing Bush stopped when the Neo-Con Judges appointed him to the white house.

Good for NK...less people is going to die in winter.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9375104/

Now is a time to watch them even more closely.

I dont give a flying fuck what the usual gaggle of President Bush bashers think or feel. Even if he made NK an offer they couldnt refuse-or impressed them with a real threat, he wouldnt get any credit for it.
Who cares? As long as they claim to have stopped-and we verify that thoroughly with diligence.
If anyone else we know was President, they'd be placating Jong Il by lapping at his taint, appeasing a dictator. Until it was too late.

Libya and NK made a stop in the right direction, but dont trust either. Continued positive pressure to keep their momentum going in the right direction.

Now is a time to watch them even more closely.

I dont give a flying fuck what the usual gaggle of President Bush bashers think or feel. Even if he made NK an offer they couldnt refuse-or impressed them with a real threat, he wouldnt get any credit for it.
Who cares? As long as they claim to have stopped-and we verify that thoroughly with diligence.
If anyone else we know was President, they'd be placating Jong Il by lapping at his taint, appeasing a dictator. Until it was too late.

Libya and NK made a stop in the right direction, but dont trust either. Continued positive pressure to keep their momentum going in the right direction.

a) Its not a question of bashing Bush: He basically managed to do now what Clinton had done some years ago, to convince NK to drop their nuclear program. I'm glad that Bush (or China, but the US had an important role) managed to do this, now i'm waiting for some neo-con to retract and say that Clinton wasn't so wrong (or in the other way, to see a neo-con call bush an idiot :P )

b) Libya lost a war with Chad. Kadafy is a coward, he stopped because he got scared, just like he stopped when 6 US planes dropped some bombs on libya (come on, just 6 planes made him surrender) some years ago. Aquiring political concessions from Kadafy is easy has it gets.

b) Libya lost a war with Chad. Kadafy is a coward, he stopped because he got scared, just like he stopped when 6 US planes dropped some bombs on libya (come on, just 6 planes made him surrender) some years ago. Aquiring political concessions from Kadafy is easy has it gets.


Some bombs? They hit the tent he lived in and killed one of his children.

Ok-we'll assume you're right on this one-for argumentent's sake. Whose term did it happen during? And why didnt it happen during someone else's?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050919/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

Holy shit. So it is true. I didn't expect this.. I was totally off guard. Thumbs up to Bush for disarm another nation diplomatically (Libya was the other).

And not just Bush but to the Chinese, South Koreans, Russians and Japan too. Now we just have to make sure that N.K. follows through.

I would like to be optimistic about this, but I see a loophole.

North Korea has pledged to give up it's nuclear weapons program.

The U.S. has pledged to recognize NK soverignty...

...AND pledge not to attack NK with conventional or nuclear arms.

So if North Korea breaks their end of the bargain...well, you just might have the legal loophole necessary for military action outside of UN approval (again).

I hope this works out, I really do, but I'm really fucking skeptical. :(

Don't be too quick about this though...

The DPRK has got a deal that they will be supplied with a functioning Light Water Reactor, and that the US will "normalise" relations with them.
I'd be suprised if the US would actually be forthcoming with this, which leads us straight into another few months of negotiations.

Plenty enuff time to store another few warheads in some hole in the mountains.

I have to agree with Leonstein here. There are still to many questions that don't have answers.

Though this is a positive step, I echo Bush on this " but he questioned whether all parties would "adhere to the agreement."'

He brings up a point. He isn't sure if all parties will adhere to it. We'll have to wait and see.

You're right, Eut. All of this, the DPRK developing nukes, happened on President Bush's watch. ;)

Actually, no. Alot of this was started under Clinton's watch.

I would like to be optimistic about this, but I see a loophole.

North Korea has pledged to give up it's nuclear weapons program.

The U.S. has pledged to recognize NK soverignty...

...AND pledge not to attack NK with conventional or nuclear arms.

So if North Korea breaks their end of the bargain...well, you just might have the legal loophole necessary for military action outside of UN approval (again).

I hope this works out, I really do, but I'm really fucking skeptical. :(

If N.K. breaks their agreement, I hope we call it a violation of the Cease-fire agreement and attack.

If N.K. breaks their agreement, I hope we call it a violation of the Cease-fire agreement and attack.

Well...I don't hope for that, but that's what I see happening.

Even if U.S. airstrikes can take out ALL of the artillery pointed at Seoul, a hell of a lot of people would die in such a conflict.

Actually, no. Alot of this was started under Clinton's watch.
But unlike Bush, Clinton was getting ready to get do something about it. Then an agreement was reached. Then an "imperialist cowboy" was elected and proceeded to invade Afghanistan (justified in my eyes) and Iraq (not so justified). The latter was in direct connection to "nooculer" weapons and other WMDs and no amount of cooperation got the local dictator anything. This is out of the hypthetical view of a paranoid, anti-american regime. They proceeded to start the only thing they thought could save them, since not having WMDs certainly didn't seem to help.
It happened on Bush's watch and he chose to look away. ;)

But unlike Bush, Clinton was getting ready to get do something about it. Then an agreement was reached. Then an "imperialist cowboy" was elected and proceeded to invade Afghanistan (justified in my eyes) and Iraq (not so justified). The latter was in direct connection to "nooculer" weapons and other WMDs and no amount of cooperation got the local dictator anything. This is out of the hypthetical view of a paranoid, anti-american regime. They proceeded to start the only thing they thought could save them, since not having WMDs certainly didn't seem to help.
It happened on Bush's watch and he chose to look away. ;)

If you actually believe that, I have some new beach front property for sale to sell ya!

If you actually believe that, I have some new beach front property for sale to sell ya!Which part?

Aren't the Chinese just as boggled with North Korean diplomatic ties as are the Americans? As far as I know they have plenty of problems with the DPRK of their own and most certainly don't control them.

Most certainly, that's what the Chinese wants us to believe and it is most certainly a charade.

And most certainly, the recent pentagon pre-emptive nuke doctrine which includes states which proliferate nukes to surrogate countries has something to do with this announcement.

But I am still wondering what were the concessions to the Chinese for them taking away their toys.

C'mon....we all know this is Carter's fault.

Hey lookie, kids! Bush's policies worked - who would have thought :)I dont give a flying fuck what the usual gaggle of President Bush bashers think or feel. Even if he made NK an offer they couldnt refuse-or impressed them with a real threat, he wouldnt get any credit for it.yes we know...all NeoCons really-truly hate taking credit for other peoples Work :rolleyes:
Holy shit. So it is true. I didn't expect this.. I was totally off guard. Thumbs up to Bush ....

http://www.thorninpaw.com/u/htdocs/thorni/images/Mission%20Accomplished.jpg

:D :D

Oops, Kimmy is saying that he'd like that light-water reactor before dismantling: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/09/19/korea.north.talks/index.html

Let's hope this doesn't send the negotiations back to square one.

Oops, Kimmy is saying that he'd like that light-water reactor before dismantling: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/09/19/korea.north.talks/index.html

Let's hope this doesn't send the negotiations back to square one.

Wasn't he always saying that it was one of the requirements?

Wasn't he always saying that it was one of the requirements?
Yeah, but apparently this time the US and Japan took it as if they would disarm first and the reactor later. Apparently, not so; and they have a problem with giving him a reactor without having disassembled his program first.

well. its hard to believe i'll give it that. i still think kim has got to go though.

Yeah, but apparently this time the US and Japan took it as if they would disarm first and the reactor later.HAHAHAHA...Well...apparently they got it all wrong...Dont they? :p


Bush has lost all Credibility...Why should NK trust him?

HAHAHAHA...Well...apparently they got it all wrong...Dont they? :p


Bush has lost all Credibility...Why should NK trust him?

:rolleyes:

Why should we trust Kim Jong Il?

He has violated the NPT (before he pulled out of it) as well as the 1994 agreement.

So tell me why we should trust Kim Jong Il?

:rolleyes:

Why should we trust Kim Jong Il?

He has violated the NPT (before he pulled out of it) as well as the 1994 agreement.

So tell me why we should trust Kim Jong Il?You do not have to Trust Kim..and Kim do not have to trust you.

Most of the people in the World do not trust Bush...

Looks like we are fully on the hands of China...doesnt it? ;)

Looks like we are fully on the hands of China...doesnt it? ;)What else is new? :D

Reading through the thread...

1) It would not be another Vietnam. Wouldn't have to. It'd just be another Korean War- er, Conflict. Police Action. Liberation?

2) We don't have to trust NK; NK does not have to trust the US (or China et al, for that matter). We count on enlightened self-interest to keep people to public agreements. That's why we publicize them so quickly.

3) There is already a Catch-22 in the negotiations. From the US perspective, we're ready to discuss the light water reactor after NK comes into compliance with the NPT and UN regulations. From the NK perspective, NK will dismantle its nuclear program after it has the reactor.

I do hope this deal works out. I just don't see it happening.