NationStates Jolt Archive

If at any point you have questions about not being there...

http://www.objector.org/

an open ear is always available.




The GI Rights Hotline
http://girights.objector.org/



Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors
(888) 236-2226
(215) 563-8787 Fax (215) 567-2096
1515 Cherry Street
Philadelphia, PA 19102
girights@objector.org

Don't you have to be a Jehovah's Whitness or a member of another pacifist gorup to get Conscientious Objector status?

Don't you have to be a Jehovah's Whitness or a member of another pacifist gorup to get Conscientious Objector status?

A) No I don't think so, but the draft board often tossed you trick questions to see if you really were a conscientious objector, so you have to answer carefully.

B) JWs are not pacifists. They believe in self-defense. I had that distinction pointed out to me a couple of years ago.

What little I know,

it is good to get started early.
Like write some articles or papers in school about pacifism
or none war in general. Maybe mail copies to yourself and don't open them.


No, you don't have to be any particular "officially recognized" faith
in order to C.O.

Quakers are pacifists. Although by Nixon you'd never have guessed.

Also pacifist does not mean passive.
There are many pacifists who are actively working towards peace
and disarmament.

I would recommend against seeking CO status. There are repercussions, some of which are not pleasant. Unless you truly are a pacifist, they really make it not worth your while.

What little I know,

it is good to get started early.
Like write some articles or papers in school about pacifism
or none war in general. Maybe mail copies to yourself and don't open them.


No, you don't have to be any particular "officially recognized" faith
in order to C.O.

Quakers are pacifists. Although by Nixon you'd never have guessed.

Also pacifist does not mean passive.
There are many pacifists who are actively working towards peace
and disarmament.Which of course raises the interesting question of why you joined the military in the first place...

I would recommend against seeking CO status. There are repercussions, some of which are not pleasant. Unless you truly are a pacifist, they really make it not worth your while.For a moment there (before it made click) I thought you were referring to Commissioned Officer status... :p

pacifism

n 1: the doctrine that all violence in unjustifiable [syn: passivism] 2: the belief that all international disputes can be settled by arbitration

That, ladies and gentlemen, is pacifism.

B) JWs are not pacifists. They believe in self-defense. I had that distinction pointed out to me a couple of years ago.
As one who was a JW for 26 years, let me clarify this a touch--JWs only believe in self-defense in schoolyard terms, and then only on a very limited basis. The idea is that they do what is necessary to be able to flee, and never press an attack home. But as far as fighting in self-defense in an organized, military way, that would never happen. As far as the military is concerned, JWs are indeed pacifists.

Somebody else post " Why did they join the military then"? I think that any "pacifist" who joins the military, gains benifits, experience, pay, and healthcare, and then turns around and says they won't fight, should be prosecuted TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW for defrauding the government. If you don't want to fight, don't join.

Somebody else post " Why did they join the military then"? I think that any "pacifist" who joins the military, gains benifits, experience, pay, and healthcare, and then turns around and says they won't fight, should be prosecuted TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW for defrauding the government. If you don't want to fight, don't join.Exactly (though I disagree with the prosecution bit). If there was a draft, there needs to be a conscientous objection allowed. But if you join the military out of your own free will, and you get dragged off to a war, why should you object to military service all of a sudden?

It's OK to join the military, change your beliefs, apply for CO status, and quit.

It is fraud to join the military with the intent to "change your beliefs" when there becomes likelyhood that you will be deployed to a combat zone.

The first should be made sure they are not the second, then let go. The second should be prosecuted.

Oh, and one does not have to be a pacifist to be a C.O.

If one believes a particular war is wrong or immoral,
then I can see one objecting.

Contact the above for more details.


Also, I think it is uniform code of justice or something,
that says, no soldier is obligated to obey an illegal order.

It might even be required that one disobey illegal orders.
Remember, each soldier takes an oath to uphold and
defend the constitution. Not any party or particular individual.

With all that said, this post is not advocating any one
disobey any order, nor should it be taken as such. Just having a discussion.

But if you join the military out of your own free will, and you get dragged off to a war, why should you object to military service all of a sudden?



Perhaps you found out more information than you previously had.

This happens to me all the time.

For example, I found out that it was cheaper to buy stuff on ebay
than at wallymart. Before I heard of ebay, I did not know this.

With all that said, this post is not advocating any one
disobey any order, nor should it be taken as such. Just having a discussion.
Sure sounds like your being an advocate to me. Your names not Cindy, is it? (sorry, obviously a joke in bad taste, but I couldn't resist)

Somebody else post " Why did they join the military then"? I think that any "pacifist" who joins the military, gains benifits, experience, pay, and healthcare, and then turns around and says they won't fight, should be prosecuted TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW for defrauding the government. If you don't want to fight, don't join.

Exactly (though I disagree with the prosecution bit). If there was a draft, there needs to be a conscientous objection allowed. But if you join the military out of your own free will, and you get dragged off to a war, why should you object to military service all of a sudden?

Great posts, both. As a ten year veteran of the Army, I would back full prosecution on any one who tries this fraud.

If you are drafted, then I can see it. But if you join, avail yourself to the benifits of service, then deciede you are a CO when the shooting time comes, you deserve to prosecuted to the fullest extent.

It's OK to join the military, change your beliefs, apply for CO status, and quit.

It is fraud to join the military with the intent to "change your beliefs" when there becomes likelyhood that you will be deployed to a combat zone.

The first should be made sure they are not the second, then let go. The second should be prosecuted.
Exactly. Now, I'll be the first to say that a person in the military voluntarily who claims C. O. status has a much higher bar to clear to prove that status than a draftee would, and that the onus should be on the person to prove that this is not a recent or convenient change.

And while I sympathize with soldiers who want to pick and choose the wars they fight in, even I, as an ardent opposer of the war in Iraq, say that if you're concerned about the morality of the wars you may be asked to fight, you ought not sign up. Politicians of all stripes are notorious for sending soldiers into harm's way for awfully specious and immoral reasons.

Exactly. Now, I'll be the first to say that a person in the military voluntarily who claims C. O. status has a much higher bar to clear to prove that status than a draftee would, and that the onus should be on the person to prove that this is not a recent or convenient change.

And while I sympathize with soldiers who want to pick and choose the wars they fight in, even I, as an ardent opposer of the war in Iraq, say that if you're concerned about the morality of the wars you may be asked to fight, you ought not sign up. Politicians of all stripes are notorious for sending soldiers into harm's way for awfully specious and immoral reasons.

I'd like to point out that there might be some exceptions (yes, to my own assertion..)

1: Enlisting as a Guardsman or Coastie, where it is assumed that you are going to help your countreymen at home, guard the borders against illegal immigrants, individuals with hostile intent, and smugglers, and serve as your nation's last line of defence, not being deployed to the *ss end of the world to fight in a full out shooting war you may or may not support. You expected to sheild your homeland, not wage somebody's war, and if you have a serious problem with offensive war, it's valid for you to apply for CO status if you are asked to deploy to the warzone.

2: If your views change radically durring your first tour, you should be allowed to apply for CO status and a discharge before your second tour in the same war. Though most of what this would be is "psychologically unfit for duty" I think.

For a moment there (before it made click) I thought you were referring to Commissioned Officer status... :p

I would recommend against that too.

Also, I think it is uniform code of justice or something,
that says, no soldier is obligated to obey an illegal order.


Yeah, you know what, try that one. There is a fair to middling chance that you will end up in prison for a very long time. (If they don't just shoot you.)

Oh, and one does not have to be a pacifist to be a C.O.

If one believes a particular war is wrong or immoral,
then I can see one objecting.I cannot think of any nation which has recognized CO status as accepting that it can be applied on a case by case basis. CO status is prety much recognized as a belief that violence is wrong, not that violence is sometimes not justified. Try pulling that argument in the US and you wind up in prison. CO status is not a chance to second guess government policy, but a compasionate exemption made for persons who would be gravely injured morally by being forced to use violence.

on disobeying unlawful orders

Yeah, you know what, try that one. There is a fair to middling chance that you will end up in prison for a very long time. (If they don't just shoot you.)



Guess whatever commanders expect people to obey them,
no matter what they tell them.

That's the problem with militarism.

Blind obedience and the over inflated egos that go with the unnaturalness
of telling people what to do.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is pacifism. Pffft. Can't stand that at all.

Although, I have to say, conscientious objecting in the First World War was totally right and honourable. Remember the line from Blackadder?
"The British empire covers a quarter of the globe, while the German empire consists of a small sausage factory in Polynesia. We are hardly blameless on the empire-building front."
So it depends on the circumstances.

I'm sorry, that website is basically for people who sign up and don't want to take responsibility for thier own actions. If you read the letters from people , almost every one is " I signed up then got scared and the recruiters yelled at me, waah!" I bet nearly every one has also cried about people "not treating them like adults.


Other parts of it are just blatant anti-military BS:


"often those who are forced into the military to learn a trade, or earn money for school, don't even get what they believe they were promised!"
Joining the military is a dead end, etc.


Forced in? Nobody forced them in. The GI Bill is worth thousands, if you actually use it.

They use biased statistics, racism, and as much misrepresentation as the recruiters they are demonizing supposedly do.


Keep this site around. The people that are attracted to it shouldn't be in the military in the first place. It's for mature adults who take responsibility for their lives.