NationStates Jolt Archive

If you have a few moments, please read this all the way through:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

Then, please tell me what should we do about men like this? What are we to make of them? Should we ignore them, honor them, or what?

NOTE: Please restrain yourself from flaming. I realize this will be difficult for some of the more ... vociferous among you, but please do try. Thank you!

If you have a few moments, please read this all the way through:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

Then, please tell me what should we do about men like this? What are we to make of them? Should we ignore them, honor them, or what?

NOTE: Please restrain yourself from flaming. I realize this will be difficult for some of the more ... vociferous among you, but please do try. Thank you!

According to that story, this person was already honored. In fact, he recieved the second greatest honor possible for a marine. That medal is now a permanent part of his record and gives him an incredible advantage when it comes time for reviews. He will likely become a high ranking marine and could leverage that into a lucrative career as a civil servant or even a civilian. He has won the praise, admiration, and respect of his peers. What else can we do with him? Hes on top of the world already.

Eutrusca-you and I know this man is a hero.

I'm afraid you are about to attract an avalanche of negative criticism though. And I hope it doesnt ruin your day.

Probably is, but will he like it when the politicians will be namechecking him in the next election?
Probably not

Ugh, the music.

Maybe the guy should be honoured. But that music I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

I'd hate to spill his pint...

This Marine was honored already, and deservedly. However, the article brings up a good point about the role of our media in the war. Downplaying the honorable actions of our soldiers and cosistantly reporting on the ill of war, our mostly liberal media makes us look unpatriotic in the eyes of the world. The editors and very few owners of mass media will keep things this way and stories of our heros will be heard by very few.

Well, once I had turned off the disgustingly atrocious and puke making music, then waded my way through the candy wrappers and hankies, I have to say that yes this guy was brave.

He risked his life, he saved some of his fellow marine's lives and managed to stay alive to boot.
He has quite rightly recieved recognition for this and as Lazyhippies has said, he will most probably have got himself sorted and in good standing for the rest of his life.
In short he was doing his job and was rewarded for it and quite rightly too.

What, may I ask, are your opinions on it Eutrusca?
You ask for ours, but make none yourself.

This Marine was honored already, and deservedly. However, the article brings up a good point about the role of our media in the war. Downplaying the honorable actions of our soldiers and cosistantly reporting on the ill of war, our mostly liberal media makes us look unpatriotic in the eyes of the world. The editors and very few owners of mass media will keep things this way and stories of our heros will be heard by very few.
Uhm sorry to interrupt, but the cnn news coverage that the rest of the world (along with time magazine and a few others), never showed the evil of war in Iraq..The only American to do it was Michael Moore.
That from a European that can only see CNN and its regulated-by-the-whitehouse-news.

If you have a few moments, please read this all the way through:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

Then, please tell me what should we do about men like this? What are we to make of them? Should we ignore them, honor them, or what?

NOTE: Please restrain yourself from flaming. I realize this will be difficult for some of the more ... vociferous among you, but please do try. Thank you!

Yes.

Thats lovely.

Im glad that we have soldiers like that guy.
I really am.

He showed a lot of bravery in what he did.

But....

Oh, sure, there's a body count. We know how many Americans have fallen. And we see those same casket pictures day in and day out

Yes, we do.

But you know what we dont see?

Reports of the staggering toll of innocent civillians, killed by American forces.
You know that the BBC has reported estimates of over 100,000 dead civilians in Iraq, post invasion?
Some reports say that 100,000 is a conservative estimate.
Other sources, put the death toll anywhere to 60,000 to 80,000

Its estimated by still other sources that American forces are responsible for 38% of all Iraqi deaths post-invasion.

Why arent we hearing that on the news either?

I admire this mans courage, I really do.
I think he was doing the job he was given, and trying to do what he could to keep his men alive, in an ambush.
Thats great.


"Hero"?

I dont know.

Maybe if he baked up a 1000 loaves of bread and passed them out to hungry civillians, then I would call him a hero.
Until our military actually does something for the people of iraq, I cant.

We should honor him.

I doubt anybody anywhere would disagree with your contention that that man is a hero. Unfortunately good news is never as popular as bad news, regardless of the topic. Rarely does anyone hear about heroes whether they are military, firemen, policemen, doctors, lawyers, or schoolchildren. Heroes don't compel the American public to watch like tragedy does.

The networks exist for one reason: to make money. Hero stories don't sell as well as tragedy. Unless you want to strictly limit capitalism, you'll see a lot of televised tragedy and very few heroes.

Statues.

snip


Remind me to buy this guy a tall, cold one.

The networks exist for one reason: to make money. Hero stories don't sell as well as tragedy. Unless you want to strictly limit capitalism, you'll see a lot of televised tragedy and very few heroes.

Exactly. Who said the media was fair? Who said they do it for the public good? They want... RATINGS.

(cept BBC, they don't make money)

I have a general problem with those proclaimed heros... While they save some people, others die. And the only difference is what political side those who died were on.

I'll be ready to thank everybody who is a real hero by helping in emergencies, by giving time and money for others without asking anything in return, by doing the right thing in the right moment.
But I won't honour anybody whose heroism came down to killing.

Exactly. Who said the media was fair? Who said they do it for the public good? They want... RATINGS.

(cept BBC, they don't make money)

Well the BBC do make money, but they are not dependant upon advertising for it and do not have to make a profit for shareholders pockets.

Any 'hero' who allows him/herself to be made a spectacle of (eg: news interviews, WEB PAGES etc) instantly negates the heroism.

And to those of you with the Iraq stats...this thread isn't about Iraq, it's about that marine's bravery.

HOWEVER - A significant ammount (more than 50%) of Brittish casualties in Iraq were caused by American 'friendly fire'. Ref: A Brittish convoy taking aid to a neutral village on the outskirts of Iraq was attacked by a USAF squardon who (apparently) 'thought it was an enemy convoy'.

Oh yeah and before anyone breaks out the 'We saved ur ass in wwII' CRAP I'll just point out that it was Brittish forces who took Berlin, the US didn't do ANYTHING till they were attacked themselves and the Russians helped us out more than you guys did.

And to those of you with the Iraq stats...this thread isn't about Iraq, it's about that marine's bravery.

Then Kelikstadt perhaps you should take your own advice?
The points that you made are both valid, however, not on this thread.

If you have a few moments, please read this all the way through:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

Then, please tell me what should we do about men like this? What are we to make of them? Should we ignore them, honor them, or what?

NOTE: Please restrain yourself from flaming. I realize this will be difficult for some of the more ... vociferous among you, but please do try. Thank you!
People like this should have their stories told often and in every medium available. When people see what one man willing to do whatever it takes, including risking his own life, to save his friends and his countrymen they tend to follow his example. Celebrating the heros of today inspires the heros of tomorrow.

People like this should have their stories told often and in every medium available. When people see what one man willing to do whatever it takes, including risking his own life, to save his friends and his countrymen they tend to follow his example. Celebrating the heros of today inspires the heros of tomorrow.

... who will then run of to the next Arab country looking to shoot Arabs and become heros themselves?

And, yes, I know, this is not the message you would want to come across when telling this story, but this will be the message a good number of people will get from this story.

Eutrusca-you and I know this man is a hero.

I'm afraid you are about to attract an avalanche of negative criticism though. And I hope it doesnt ruin your day.
Trust me ... it takes a LOT to ruin my day! :D

Trust me ... it takes a LOT to ruin my day! :D

Really? Any good news we should know about?

Trust me ... it takes a LOT to ruin my day! :D


Glad to hear it. ;)

Well, once I had turned off the disgustingly atrocious and puke making music, then waded my way through the candy wrappers and hankies, I have to say that yes this guy was brave.

He risked his life, he saved some of his fellow marine's lives and managed to stay alive to boot.
He has quite rightly recieved recognition for this and as Lazyhippies has said, he will most probably have got himself sorted and in good standing for the rest of his life.
In short he was doing his job and was rewarded for it and quite rightly too.

What, may I ask, are your opinions on it Eutrusca?
You ask for ours, but make none yourself.
If you've read any of my military-related posts it should be readily apparent that such a display of great courage and incredible perseverence in the face of overwhelming odds has my absolute admiration. I suspect the only reason he didn't receive the Medal of Honor is because he wasn't wounded ( apparently ... the article doesn't mention that he was ). The fact that he only rated a few lines on an inside page by the newspaper of his own town speaks volumes about the attitude of the press.

... who will then run of to the next Arab country looking to shoot Arabs and become heros themselves?

And, yes, I know, this is not the message you would want to come across when telling this story, but this will be the message a good number of people will get from this story.
I don't think that's true. I think that instead they'll be inspired to serve their country and be more willing to make sacrifices.

Uhm sorry to interrupt, but the cnn news coverage that the rest of the world (along with time magazine and a few others), never showed the evil of war in Iraq..The only American to do it was Michael Moore.
That from a European that can only see CNN and its regulated-by-the-whitehouse-news.
You need to get out more. CNN is not requlated by anything but CNN.

Until our military actually does something for the people of iraq, I cant.
You are a victim of the one-sided, "OMG! Everything is t3h fucked up!!!!" information that passes for news in this media-driven social mileu. :(

I don't think that's true. I think that instead they'll be inspired to serve their country and be more willing to make sacrifices.

I just don't have your faith in mankind, I guess...

Unfortunately good news is never as popular as bad news, regardless of the topic. Rarely does anyone hear about heroes whether they are military, firemen, policemen, doctors, lawyers, or schoolchildren. Heroes don't compel the American public to watch like tragedy does.

The networks exist for one reason: to make money. Hero stories don't sell as well as tragedy. Unless you want to strictly limit capitalism, you'll see a lot of televised tragedy and very few heroes.
EGGG-ZACTLY! Precisely my point!

[ hands you a dozen cookies ]

Remind me to buy this guy a tall, cold one.
You'll need to get in line! :D

I just don't have your faith in mankind, I guess...
Well look at the track record. I can't think of one instance where an American citizen has decided to take it upon himself to travel overseas and kill a whole bunch of people because of their ethnicity. It may have happened, but I've never heard of it and I suspect it's not all that common. I don't think that celebrating war heros and telling their stories will cause such a thing to take place.

I have a general problem with those proclaimed heros... While they save some people, others die. And the only difference is what political side those who died were on.

I'll be ready to thank everybody who is a real hero by helping in emergencies, by giving time and money for others without asking anything in return, by doing the right thing in the right moment.
But I won't honour anybody whose heroism came down to killing.
Then I shall have no honor from you, since many of my early years were spent doing precisely that. :(

Well look at the track record. I can't think of one instance where an American citizen has decided to take it upon himself to travel overseas and kill a whole bunch of people because of their ethnicity. It may have happened, but I've never heard of it and I suspect it's not all that common. I don't think that celebrating war heros and telling their stories will cause such a thing to take place.

I'm originally from a country that's been indoctrinated with "war heros" by the barrelfull in its history, and that suffered severly from an overdose.
I know that there is a very thin line between war heroism and pure propaganda, and I for one prefer to stay away from that line as far as possible.

Then I shall have no honor from you, since many of my early years were spent doing precisely that. :(

I've learned not to hold people's personal history against them, and you are a nice guy now, after all. I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but then that would be boring, wouldn't it? ;)

Really? Any good news we should know about?
Of course, the prime one being that I woke up this morning! :D

Plus, I have a roof over my head, clothes to wear, food to eat, people who love me, ways to occupy my mind, two cats and a dog who love me ( as long as I feed them ), and ...

no one is shooting at me! :D

Of course, the prime one being that I woke up this morning! :D

Plus, I have a roof over my head, clothes to wear, food to eat, people who love me, ways to occupy my mind, two cats and a dog who love me ( as long as I feed them ), and ...

no one is shooting at me! :D

We were optomistic about some results. I'm guessing they'd keep you waiting a few more days.

It made me tear up to read that because all I could see in my head were the anti war protesters carrying signs saying "murders out of Iraq" and shouting slogans about how were fighting "minute men" It makes me sick that such uninformed people have such freedom to bash the very wars that keep them safe. And its sad that they can't shut up for 2 minutes and SERIOUSLY consider anything more than the 2 dimensional idea that the only threat in this world are the people from 9-11. It drives me crazy to hear old quotes about Iraq from the very people who oppose the war. Quotes that sound like they come right out of Bush's mouth.

If you've read any of my military-related posts it should be readily apparent that such a display of great courage and incredible perseverence in the face of overwhelming odds has my absolute admiration. I suspect the only reason he didn't receive the Medal of Honor is because he wasn't wounded ( apparently ... the article doesn't mention that he was ). The fact that he only rated a few lines on an inside page by the newspaper of his own town speaks volumes about the attitude of the press.

Sorry I haven't, nor should you assume that others have either.
It is I find, always better to state your point again for the benefit of those who don't know you.

Courage is only one step away from stupidity really, when you think of it, how many people in their right minds would have actually done what he did?
However, people do, in all walks of life, just allow 'stupidity' over ride their instinct of self preservasion and get on and do what has to be done.

As I have said, this guy deserves what he has been given, as do so many more who were just in the situation where it was called for.

I've learned not to hold people's personal history against them, and you are a nice guy now, after all. I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but then that would be boring, wouldn't it? ;)
Hon, after reading your posts to some of the more ... um ... sexually oriented threads on here, I find you anything but "boring!" :D

We were optomistic about some results. I'm guessing they'd keep you waiting a few more days.
Probably Monday, the doctor said. Thanks! [ manly hug ] :D

Probably Monday, the doctor said. Thanks! [ manly hug ] :D

Good luck, my friend.

Good luck, my friend.
Thanks, bro. I tend to be guardedly optomistic. :)

EGGG-ZACTLY! Precisely my point!

[ hands you a dozen cookies ]

So you're becoming a socialist? :confused:

Heros, are by definition, to be lauded. The capitalist media is going to report bad news because it sells. Surely you conservatives do not want a tax-funded state brodacasting enterprise to glorify the current war and its heroes? That's the only way you will get around the "anti-war media".

So you're becoming a socialist? :confused:
Um ... noooo. Just being who and what I am. :D

Heros, are by definition, to be lauded. The capitalist media is going to report bad news because it sells. Surely you conservatives do not want a tax-funded state brodacasting enterprise to glorify the current war and its heroes? That's the only way you will get around the "anti-war media".
Probably one of the few times when you and I are in complete agreement! :D

This Marine was honored already, and deservedly. However, the article brings up a good point about the role of our media in the war. Downplaying the honorable actions of our soldiers and cosistantly reporting on the ill of war, our mostly liberal media makes us look unpatriotic in the eyes of the world. The editors and very few owners of mass media will keep things this way and stories of our heros will be heard by very few.


...but the idea that most of the media is liberal is just a lie... lol

this guy is a hero. i don't hear stories like his on the evening news; I do hear the running body count, all the bad things that happen to US forces every day.

which makes me wonder... whose side are the american media on? Do they want the US to fail? hmmm. someone should send this to Sheehan and her hippie friends.

If you have a few moments, please read this all the way through:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

Then, please tell me what should we do about men like this? What are we to make of them? Should we ignore them, honor them, or what?

NOTE: Please restrain yourself from flaming. I realize this will be difficult for some of the more ... vociferous among you, but please do try. Thank you!

I don't honor people who kill other people. As I have always said, I will respect thier opinion in joining the military and thier dignity as human beings, but I will neither support them per se, nor will I honor them.

I have a general problem with those proclaimed heros... While they save some people, others die. And the only difference is what political side those who died were on.

I'll be ready to thank everybody who is a real hero by helping in emergencies, by giving time and money for others without asking anything in return, by doing the right thing in the right moment.
But I won't honour anybody whose heroism came down to killing.

that's right... we should let the bad guys alone.

WAKE UP

the terrorists are trying to undermine the democratic process in Iraq. do you not have democratic ideals? where's your concern for freedom? cripes.

Um ... noooo. Just being who and what I am. :D

Then are you suggesting that the government control the media? :confused:

Or are you just commenting on the sad fact that human nature is more interested in bad news than good?

I don't honor people who kill other people. As I have always said, I will respect thier opinion in joining the military and thier dignity as human beings, but I will neither support them per se, nor will I honor them.

thank goodness people like you weren't in charge during world war II, or hitler would have rolled over europe, japan would have taken over the entire pacific, etc.

BAD PEOPLE NEED TO BE KILLED; EVIL MUST BE STOPPED (or at least fought).. so that good people, like you and me and the people who chat here, can live lives of peace, freedom and security.

Then are you suggesting that the government control the media? :confused:

Or are you just commenting on the sad fact that human nature is more interested in bad news than good?

i'm pissed that the media are happy to report the news that helps the arguments of those against the war... and has basically decided not to tell the other side of the war -- that which shows that it is worth fighting, that it is being fought well, and that it should be supported.

therein lies the problem... they're reporting information that supports the doves and undermines those who support our work in Iraq.

link no work.

thank goodness people like you weren't in charge during world war II, or hitler would have rolled over europe, japan would have taken over the entire pacific, etc.

BAD PEOPLE NEED TO BE KILLED; EVIL MUST BE STOPPED (or at least fought).. so that good people, like you and me and the people who chat here, can live lives of peace, freedom and security.

The original poster didn't imply that at all. All she/he said was that they would not honour these solidiers because, they don't believe in honouring people killing other people. They did not in any way imply what they would or would not have done come world war two or any other scenario. So, my question to you is, why did you feel to assume that original poster's position when we all know that if you assume you are making an ASS of U and ME.

If you have a few moments, please read this all the way through:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

Then, please tell me what should we do about men like this? What are we to make of them? Should we ignore them, honor them, or what?

NOTE: Please restrain yourself from flaming. I realize this will be difficult for some of the more ... vociferous among you, but please do try. Thank you!
We should cast them in bronze and replace the awful NEA funded artwork in front of government buildings.

Even though men like Brian wouldn't admit to being especially brave, I think they would like to be appreciated.

The original poster didn't imply that at all. All she/he said was that they would not honour these solidiers because, they don't believe in honouring people killing other people. They did not in any way imply what they would or would not have done come world war two or any other scenario. So, my question to you is, why did you feel to assume that original poster's position when we all know that if you assume you are making an ASS of U and ME.

this is what the poster said:

I don't honor people who kill other people. As I have always said, I will respect thier opinion in joining the military and thier dignity as human beings, but I will neither support them per se, nor will I honor them.

my point is, some people need to be killed so that the rest of us may be free, safe, etc. In the case of Iraq, the killable ones are insurgents who wish to undermine the new democratically-elected government of Iraq. They want to keep the old days of "the few rule the many"... IE, the Ba'athists coming down hard on at least 80% of the population (Shi'a and Kurd).

if you don't fight the bad guys, the bad guys won't stop trying to mess everything up... so we need to fight them. In such cases, killing/war are justified.

my inference that he would have (leap of abstraction, yes... there's no way to know what he would have done in WWII... and i was half-kidding anyway, as it was an outlandish statement.. hehe) allowed Hitler and Japan to run roughshod over the rest of the world was based on his submission of not honoring people who kill other people... and here's the key (for me), even if such killing is necessary.

Killing Nazis and Japanese soldiers was certainly warranted during WWII, just as killing insurgents in Iraq is warranted now (unless they lay down their arms) and start being part of the rebuilding process instead of a continued roadblock to stability.

Sometimes killing people is necessary... lest the world be run by bad people whose wish is to keep the peaceable under their thumb. By not honoring this marine, I felt that he was saying that killing bad people ("the bad guys") is not acceptable. If killing bad guys is unacceptable, then what are we to do to stop them?

I don't honor people who kill other people. As I have always said, I will respect thier opinion in joining the military and thier dignity as human beings, but I will neither support them per se, nor will I honor them.

But if our nation and other nations are and were without these men beyond praise of mere citizens like ourselves, we all might be running around with guns having to kill people just to stay alive. I guess that's how you would prefer it, isn't it?

this is what the poster said:

I don't honor people who kill other people. As I have always said, I will respect thier opinion in joining the military and thier dignity as human beings, but I will neither support them per se, nor will I honor them.

my point is, some people need to be killed so that the rest of us may be free, safe, etc. In the case of Iraq, the killable ones are insurgents who wish to undermine the new democratically-elected government of Iraq. They want to keep the old days of "the few rule the many"... IE, the Ba'athists coming down hard on at least 80% of the population (Shi'a and Kurd).

if you don't fight the bad guys, the bad guys won't stop trying to mess everything up... so we need to fight them. In such cases, killing/war are justified.

my inference that he would have (leap of abstraction, yes... there's no way to know what he would have done in WWII... and i was half-kidding anyway, as it was an outlandish statement.. hehe) allowed Hitler and Japan to run roughshod over the rest of the world was based on his submission of not honoring people who kill other people... and here's the key (for me), even if such killing is necessary.

Killing Nazis and Japanese soldiers was certainly warranted during WWII, just as killing insurgents in Iraq is warranted now (unless they lay down their arms) and start being part of the rebuilding process instead of a continued roadblock to stability.

Sometimes killing people is necessary... lest the world be run by bad people whose wish is to keep the peaceable under their thumb. By not honoring this marine, I felt that he was saying that killing bad people ("the bad guys") is not acceptable. If killing bad guys is unacceptable, then what are we to do to stop them?

Your definiton of 'bad guys' or 'evil' is different from others, and theirs from yours. Its a matter of personal point of view and opinion.

Thankfully you're not in power and don't have to send people to their deaths (no matter who you think the 'bad guys' are). Those Iraqis might feel they are fighting for their freedom but people (like the above) stop them from achieving that.

Having said that- from a military point of view, what he did was quite impressive.

While I respect this soldier's raw courage, I think it is rather unfortunate that he was presented with the opporunity to become a hero in a totally unnecessary war. Too many people have died on both sides for me to rejoice the "heroes" of this conflict.

If anyone deserves a movie based on their life, it's this dude.

that's right... we should let the bad guys alone.

WAKE UP

the terrorists are trying to undermine the democratic process in Iraq. do you not have democratic ideals? where's your concern for freedom? cripes.

While I honour freedom above my own life, I will never be as preposterous as to honour it above the lifes of others.
"Good" and "bad" are a matter of perspective. And as the saying goes, "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter".
This is in no way my fight, nor should it exactly be yours. You decided it would be wise to get involved, that was the decision of your government, and you will have to see it through now. That, in itself, makes no soldier a hero, no matter how many Americans he protected nor how many Iraqis he killed.

What I dislike about these stories is the immediate assumption that they world hates hearing about 'heros'. Ohhh...you won't hear about this. That's odd, cause I heard about last year sometime, and if you google Brian Chontosh, you'll get 35,200 hits, nearly all of them claiming that they're the only one telling the world about him.
What I'd like to know is: How does Brian Chontosh feel about all this sycophantic, holier-than-thou, "I'm better than you cause I know about him and you don't" tripe being written about him.
Maybe it wasn't reported because he didn't want it to. Maybe he didn't think he had done anything more than any other soldier in his position would have done (which is very common for soldiers to feel after being awarded medals for outstanding bravery).

... are you just commenting on the sad fact that human nature is more interested in bad news than good?
Yes.

I don't honor people who kill other people. As I have always said, I will respect thier opinion in joining the military and thier dignity as human beings, but I will neither support them per se, nor will I honor them.
Whom do you honor?

Maybe he didn't think he had done anything more than any other soldier in his position would have done (which is very common for soldiers to feel after being awarded medals for outstanding bravery).
Well, at least that much is true. :)

Well, at least that much is true. :)
You really should read "Mark of the Lion" by Kenneth Sandford. It's about Charles Upham, the only enlisted soldier to ever have won the Victoria Cross twice.
And what's more amazing than how he did this (and believe me, it's incredible) was his humility and embarrassment at having been 'singled out' in his mind for an award that anyone in his platoon could have got (his opinion there). His interview just after receiving the VC is superb. Not once does he mention his award but says it was due to his men and then asks for help and support for the rest of the soldiers captured and/or wounded.

Whom do you honor?

If we're still talking War/Peace/Defense, then I honor the leaders and diplomats who prevent wars. The ambassadors, diplomats and UN personel who spend their days diffusing conflict and building bridges don't get medals or movies or recognition... but we would be lost without men of peace and words who keep the world together.

If anyone deserves a movie based on their life, it's this dude.

That would be one short movie with less plot than a Sharzenegger film........ or even the premiss that created the Iraq war itself.

Anyway my opinion on this one is that this man bravely got himself out of a situation that on the whole he put himself into......... or was it he got himself out of a situation his government had needlessly put him in?

But I'm not sure any heroes can arise from the oppression by an opressive force over another oppressor. Only those that bring about peace take that honour, in my opinion.......... and that's not "peace" via violence either.

If we're still talking War/Peace/Defense, then I honor the leaders and diplomats who prevent wars. The ambassadors, diplomats and UN personel who spend their days diffusing conflict and building bridges don't get medals or movies or recognition... but we would be lost without men of peace and words who keep the world together.

*Hands Kroisistan a scripture for a cookie factory.*

Oh yeah and before anyone breaks out the 'We saved ur ass in wwII' CRAP I'll just point out that it was Brittish forces who took Berlin, the US didn't do ANYTHING till they were attacked themselves and the Russians helped us out more than you guys did.

Actually the Russians took Berlin, they fought the Nazis from the gates of Moscow all the way to Hitler's nuker in Berlin. And the US did do something before Japan attacked us, we started Lend-Lease. Lend-Lease was responsible for equipping the British Navy with an additional 50 WWI era destroyers for use on convoy patrols; rifles and artillery used to equip the British Home Guard when it formed after Dinkirk and the threat of invasion; and in North Africa, M5 Stuart, M3 Grants (tanks) and M9 Priests (self propelled artillery) were given to the British to help reequip armor units shattered by Rommel. The Grant and Priests were taken away from US units beginning to form and train with that equipment so that the British were able to keep fighting effectively. Also US destroyers were escorting convoys carring supplies to Britian during 1940, and at times firing and being fired on by U-Boats. Also Ameriacan volunteers were pilots during the Battle of Britain as part of Eagle Squadron.
Also don't forget the rest of the Commenwealth and Empire forces that fought alongside Brittish troops. Austrailian, Canadians, South Africans, Indians, and Gurkhas all fought in every theater of war.
While the US didn't fight the entire war, it was needed to help finish it. American factories could churn out all types of equipment needed to fight the war from beyond Nazi bombing range. And US troops were needed to fight with the rest of the Allies in order to win the war. It took everybody united to win.

Actually the Russians took Berlin, they fought the Nazis from the gates of Moscow all the way to Hitler's nuker in Berlin. And the US did do something before Japan attacked us, we started Lend-Lease. Lend-Lease was responsible for equipping the British Navy with an additional 50 WWI era destroyers for use on convoy patrols; rifles and artillery used to equip the British Home Guard when it formed after Dinkirk and the threat of invasion; and in North Africa, M5 Stuart, M3 Grants (tanks) and M9 Priests (self propelled artillery) were given to the British to help reequip armor units shattered by Rommel. The Grant and Priests were taken away from US units beginning to form and train with that equipment so that the British were able to keep fighting effectively. Also US destroyers were escorting convoys carring supplies to Britian during 1940, and at times firing and being fired on by U-Boats. Also Ameriacan volunteers were pilots during the Battle of Britain as part of Eagle Squadron.
Also don't forget the rest of the Commenwealth and Empire forces that fought alongside Brittish troops. Austrailian, Canadians, South Africans, Indians, and Gurkhas all fought in every theater of war.
While the US didn't fight the entire war, it was needed to help finish it. American factories could churn out all types of equipment needed to fight the war from beyond Nazi bombing range. And US troops were needed to fight with the rest of the Allies in order to win the war. It took everybody united to win.

Most Europeans are well aware of that fact. The funny thing is, you never really hear Canadians or Australians claim that they "saved our asses in WW II", nor do the British claim to have brought freedom to Germany, even though they above all, did.

You are a victim of the one-sided, "OMG! Everything is t3h fucked up!!!!" information that passes for news in this media-driven social mileu. :(


No...youre quite mistaken.

It is becuase I pay attention to that news, and news from other countries, that I have a clearer picture of the score.
Blowing the crap out of a city, and then building that city back, does not mean you are "rebuilding iraq", or it may, but it wouldnt have needed rebuilding if you hadnt blown the damn thing up yourself.

The civillian death toll in Iraq is so high, that other countries are concerned.
You wouldnt know this from watching American news, though would you?
Look around in the BBC websites, or UK Guardian papers.

Im not saying that all american soldiers are bastard camel-jockey hating assholes...most of them are probably decent folks.
However, dead children are dead children, regardless of how well meaning the person was who killed them.

You can tell me Im mislead by the media, but if you think that everything is going well in Iraq, I can say the same about you.