NationStates Jolt Archive

"I fear all we have done is to awake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve." Admiral Yamamoto, Commander of Japanese fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor, just after the attack.

I saw a recent poll that has got me thinking. 74% of Americans beleive Britain is a strong ally of the U.S. But other than that, NO other country scored above 50%! (even Canada)

Now lets figure out why. shall we? "American Arrogance" "American Imperialism" "Stupid cowboys". "Fat Americans" "Idiots" "Murderers" "Warmongers" "Bush is a moron" "They have no culture" " They're all rascists"

These are just a few of the things that Europeans are saying about America.

Now tell me this. Why should we even care whats best for anyone but us? Apparently most of Europe hates America. My opinion is this.

There are tough times coming in this world. It is my great fear that peace will not prevail without great amounts of violence. So what side of the "Sleeping Giant" does everyone want to be on? Because if you keep talking a bunch of shit about America, she may not be there for you when you fall of your big European horse.

~EDIT~ By the way, I am a lover of ALL people. I am a great admirer of Europe. My opinion is that you have to be in someones shoes to appreciate why they do what they do. I think American policy is severely misunderstood!

Here we go again...

I am surprised Australia didn't get over 50%. They are pretty pro-US. (Or japan for that matter).

As an American, I feel obliged to use this picture:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/DrkHelmet/fedup9wr.jpg

Come on, you wouldn't be here if you didn't like it! lol :p

.Now tell me this. Why should we even care whats best for anyone but us?
They buy our stuff.
There are tough times coming in this world. It is my great fear that peace will not prevail without great amounts of violence.
Peace can also occur with great amounts of free trade, interdependence and unfettered capitalism.

Come on, you wouldn't be here if you didn't like it! lol :p

Just tired of the chest thumping. For some reason, an abysmal number of my fellow Americans feel that acting like the Governator is the best image to send to the rest of the world. Unfortunately, that disgusts the rest of the world.

Thank you, the end.

They buy our stuff.

Peace can also occur with great amounts of free trade, interdependence and unfettered capitalism.
Tell that to Al- qiaeda or Hezbollah or Hamas or all the other Jihadists.

I think the world would be friendlier towards America if we got a really good president in office. Someone that the WHOLE country rallies around. When's the last time you saw an entirely blue or red map for an election? None of this well.... the candidates both suck, but this one matches my beliefs better... I guess.

Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe. That would make things worse, me thinks.

"I fear all we have done is to awake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve." Admiral Yamamoto, Commander of Japanese fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor, just after the attack.


He never said that. Although that was written into the Tora Tora Tora script. (great movie btw)

Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe. That would make things worse, me thinks.

Interesting thought. I wonder if the Brits would back us up on that one?

Just tired of the chest thumping. For some reason, an abysmal number of my fellow Americans feel that acting like the Governator is the best image to send to the rest of the world. Unfortunately, that disgusts the rest of the world.

Thank you, the end.
Were proud of our strength and proud of how far we've come in such a short time as a nation. Whats so bad about that? Europeans do an awful lot of chest thumping when it comes to "national experience", "history" and "culture"
Nothing wrong with that either. Besides, it's true. Were a tough nation.

Were proud of our strength and proud of how far we've come in such a short time as a nation. Whats so bad about that? Europeans do an awful lot of chest thumping when it comes to "national experience", "history" and "culture"
Nothing wrong with that either. Besides, it's true. Were a tough nation.

I'm not arguing that. America is a powerful nation. In fact, you could say it is one of the most powerful nations on the planet.

I've just seen far too many "We could whip all of Europe only using people between 65 and 80. We pwn you hard." claims. It's tiring.

I think the world would be friendlier towards America if we got a really good president in office. Someone that the WHOLE country rallies around. When's the last time you saw an entirely blue or red map for an election? None of this well.... the candidates both suck, but this one matches my beliefs better... I guess.

Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe. That would make things worse, me thinks.
Reagan had the map pretty well covered. Besides, America has always been politically contentious. Until recently, it effectively kept the government small and out of people lives by tying them up in petty disputes. Now, however, both parties have decided its okay to increase government power over private lives.
Tell that to Al- qiaeda or Hezbollah or Hamas or all the other Jihadists.
If US business paid more attention to the area, we wouldn’t have those problems. You aren’t going to blow up the people who pay you. We may have to give in to a few minor demands (like respecting national sovereignty) to hammer out a free trade agreement with the region, but it would be worth it in the end, geopolitically and economically.

The USA being a predominantly European origin nation at the end of World War II, even more so than now. Could have taken over Western Europe and made them US States and they did not do so, naturally that would have let to a war with Russia at the time, but the USA could have won that war.

Have the Europeans forgotten who they had to turn too for help during World War II?

Have the European nations forgotten the rebuilding of Europe after World War II?

They're all rascists"


I always found this one extremely humerous.. because as we are called racists... racisim exists in far greater, more intense levels in Europe... then it does in the United States. A reality most evident by levels in hate crimes, in intolerance, and political movments in some cases even gaining power in the government (austria)

Very humerous indeed

If US business paid more attention to the area, we wouldn’t have those problems. You aren’t going to blow up the people who pay you. We may have to give in to a few minor demands (like respecting national sovereignty) to hammer out a free trade agreement with the region, but it would be worth it in the end, geopolitically and economically.
Your kidding, right? You really think that free trade is the answer? You think we should negotiate with terrorists, and offer them jobs? You think Al-Qiaeda wants a Mcdonalds in Mecca?

I always found this one extremely humerous.. because as we are called racists... racisim exists in far greater, more intense levels in Europe... then it does in the United States. A reality most evident by levels in hate crimes, in intolerance, and political movments in some cases even gaining power in the government (austria)

Very humerous indeed
Yep. A Hispanic friend of mine experienced more racism during a week in France than he has his entire life here in Texas.

Have the Europeans forgotten who they had to turn too for help during World War II?

Have the European nations forgotten the rebuilding of Europe after World War II?
Have the Americans forgotten that we also didn't show up till it was almost too late, twice?

Have the Americans forgotten who made those 13 original colonies, and then provided money/troops/and materials to make it free?

Gratitude is an illfitting shirt that smells when worn too long.

Your kidding, right? You really think that free trade is the answer? You think we should negotiate with terrorists, and offer them jobs? You think Al-Qiaeda wants a Mcdonalds in Mecca?

You spelled Al-Qaeda wrong.

Your kidding, right? You really think that free trade is the answer? You think we should negotiate with terrorists, and offer them jobs? You think Al-Qiaeda wants a Mcdonalds in Mecca?
It wouldn’t start out that extreme, but eventually that would be the desired goal. A generation or two of respect and free trade should get us there.

Now tell me this. Why should we even care whats best for anyone but us?

Because if we don't we're no better than what you say they think we are. Your post is arrogant, and you don't speak for me.

Were proud of our strength and proud of how far we've come in such a short time as a nation. Whats so bad about that?

Nothing is wrong with being proud of your nation's achievements. But if I understand what the non-Americans have been posting on this forum, what they actually resent is our insistance that only American opinion counts for anything. Ironic, really, since not every American thinks as you do.

I agree tough times are ahead of us. Our current age is one of great uncertainty, and both those who wish to embrace change and those who wish to reject it are prepared to go to great lengths to achieve their goals. Progress is impossible if the majority of us can't even figure out what to progress toward.

When arguments between peoples become so polarized that no compromise is possible, blood will spill. No amount of mediation can truly avert such a tragedy, they can only delay it. Where or when the next great war will break out cannot be predicted, but it will happen. The only time a truly lasting peace will come is when we are gone. :( :headbang:


My first post! And it's depressing! W00t! :D

My first post! And it's depressing! W00t! :D

Welcome to the jungle, kid.

Welcome to the jungle, kid.
Well said! lol

Because if we don't we're no better than what you say they think we are. Your post is arrogant, and you don't speak for me.



Nothing is wrong with being proud of your nation's achievements. But if I understand what the non-Americans have been posting on this forum, what they actually resent is our insistance that only American opinion counts for anything. Ironic, really, since not every American thinks as you do.
Thats the point. If were gonna be looked down upon, we might as well just do whats best for us. Europeans sentiment isn't the way it is because of the administration. It's because we won't do things the way they want us to. We are NOT a part of Europe, and they can't get it through their heads.

And by the way, I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.

...
Isn't there a Godwin-like Law we can come up with to prevent the overuse of "Oh yeah? Well we saved your [insert country here] ass in WWII?"

Not that I'm against it's use but you'll find it has more effect when it's not used to the point where it no longer has any meaning.

It's kind of like that old SNL skit where Jim Carrey ended every sentence with, "I'll see you...IN HELL!".

The USA being a predominantly European origin nation at the end of World War II, even more so than now. Could have taken over Western Europe and made them US States and they did not do so, naturally that would have let to a war with Russia at the time, but the USA could have won that war.

Have the Europeans forgotten who they had to turn too for help during World War II?

Have the European nations forgotten the rebuilding of Europe after World War II?
No I have not forgotten. As my country will pay the last payment to the US for the 'help' it was given next year. That the US still has bases on what was my countires land arond the world and within our own borders. I have not forgotten that my country was refused aid after the war because we had the nevrve to elect democratically a socialist (labour) government.

I have not forgotten that while our soldiers helped the US invade Iraq the US banned our struggling steel industry from exporting to the US.

Yes the US helped in WWII but not they are not a strong ally, it took an Iron lady to pressure the US into giving the smallest help when islands that were protectorates of my country were invaded.

Yes I like some aspect of the US but not the self appointed saint hood many of it's citizens thought it deserved after entering WWII (late).

America - The Sleeping Giant

We are not a "sleeping giant". America is a giant that is fully awake.

Unfortunately, the "Awake Giant" is sitting on the couch scratching his balls and watching Pro-Wrasslin'.

It is my great fear that peace will not prevail without great amounts of violence.

That's like saying the night needs copious amounts of sunshine.

That's like saying the night needs copious amounts of sunshine.
Did I use the word "need" anywhere? I didn't say peace needs war, I said we won't see peace until after war. Not my opinion of how things are, just on how I think they will be.

Did I use the word "need" anywhere? I didn't say peace needs war, I said we won't see peace until after war. Not my opinion of how things are, just on how I think they will be.

Yeah things would be pretty peaceful after a nuclear war, which is what the next war will probably end up being. But I don't think that's the kind of peace we really want. Is it?

What abut Australia, how many arses dow e have to kiss to get noticed?!

What abut Australia, how many arses dow e have to kiss to get noticed?!For the life of me, I can't find the poll again, but I actually don't recall seeing Australia on there. I do know one thing though, anyone I talk to loves Australia, as do I!

we might as well just do whats best for us.

You mean you aren't already?

I always found this one extremely humerous.. because as we are called racists... racisim exists in far greater, more intense levels in Europe... then it does in the United States. A reality most evident by levels in hate crimes, in intolerance, and political movments in some cases even gaining power in the government (austria)

Very humerous indeed

Yeah, America is really tolerant really. Except if they are sand niggers or gooks, in which case they are sub human and the brave soilders of the US have every right to torture them and rape their kids.

I know you probably haven't left America so find this hard to understand, but Europe isn't one country - there's a MASSIVE difference between countries. I'd be willing to admit that Austria is racist, but Britain is nowhere near as racist as the US.

Yeah, America is really tolerant really. Except if they are sand niggers or gooks, in which case they are sub human and the brave soilders of the US have every right to torture them and rape their kids.

I know you probably haven't left America so find this hard to understand, but Europe isn't one country - there's a MASSIVE difference between countries. I'd be willing to admit that Austria is racist, but Britain is nowhere near as racist as the US.

And even in Austria, it would largely depend on where you are.

And even in Austria, it would largely depend on where you are.

Yeah, I was just going to point out that even within countries racism varies by area, so of course it's going to vary even more in a whole continent. From what I hear the deep south of the US is still pretty backward with regards to race relations, whilst the northen states are far more tolerant.

Yeah, I was just going to point out that even within countries racism varies by area, so of course it's going to vary even more in a whole continent. From what I hear the deep south of the US is still pretty backward with regards to race relations, whilst the northen states are far more tolerant.
From what you hear? Are you gonna lambaste us because we "probably never left" the U.S. , and then turn around and judge the south, which you've never been to? Can you say HYPOCRITE?

From what you hear? Are you gonna lambaste us because we "probably never left" the U.S. , and then turn around and judge the south, which you've never been to? Can you say HYPOCRITE?

Are you trying to point out that racism is evenly spread all over the US, unlike Europe, where it tends to center in rural areas and small towns?
Or are you just trying to yell "hypocrite" at somebody who heard that the Ku Klux Klan doesn't have its most active stronghold in Seattle?

From what you hear? Are you gonna lambaste us because we "probably never left" the U.S. , and then turn around and judge the south, which you've never been to? Can you say HYPOCRITE?

I have being to America on two occasions - California and New England. You see, in my country more than 10% of folks have these things called "Passports" which enable us to visit other countries and expand our knowledge of the world. We don't disregard all other countries as inferiour without visiting them, you see.

However, you are right, I have never being to the south of the US - hence why I mentioned 'From what I hear' - I have no anecdotal evidence, so can't claim it to be 100% undisputed fact, just something i've heard. Others on the other hand seem very eager to state things as if they are objective facts about Europe without even being to a single country in Europe, nevermind visiting every single European country so they can safely say they DO have knowledge of Europe.

Tell that to Al- qiaeda or Hezbollah or Hamas or all the other Jihadists.
Well apparently all those jihadists are pissed of with america, especially when it lets Israel do its walkies all over the Plaistinian people....American foreign policy is a joke mate, and American internal policy too. Dubya sent you in two really costly wars, and what did he do to finance them? He sold all of the reconstruction to his buddies at exxon, bechtel and co, demolished the nhs, cut down on welfare, neglected the south (Of course they are all niggers, specs and hillbillies out there, why should we even give a dime?), banned every attempt to regulate gun trafficking in the states (GIT OFFA MAH PRAWPEWRTY OR ILL SHOOT A HAWL INTA YA!) and, finally, gave Usamah a few more reasons to exist.....Oh and when he lied, people actually died, unlike billy boy.
Plus, the fact that he can choke on a pretzel, and asc his secretary of state to grant him permition to go to the loo....

Well apparently all those jihadists are pissed of with america, especially when it lets Israel do its walkies all over the Plaistinian people....American foreign policy is a joke mate, and American internal policy too. Dubya sent you in two really costly wars, and what did he do to finance them? He sold all of the reconstruction to his buddies at exxon, bechtel and co, demolished the nhs, cut down on welfare, neglected the south (Of course they are all niggers, specs and hillbillies out there, why should we even give a dime?), banned every attempt to regulate gun trafficking in the states (GIT OFFA MAH PRAWPEWRTY OR ILL SHOOT A HAWL INTA YA!) and, finally, gave Usamah a few more reasons to exist.....Oh and when he lied, people actually died, unlike billy boy.
Plus, the fact that he can choke on a pretzel, and asc his secretary of state to grant him permition to go to the loo....
I'm not even going to respond to your bigotry and ignorance.

I'm not even going to respond to your bigotry and ignorance.

If that's the only argument you can come up with... :rolleyes:

If that's the only argument you can come up with... :rolleyes:
When someone fills their post with ignorance and bigotry towards a class of people that I feel I relate to, on top of all of the childish name calling, I choose not to respond. Take it any way you want to, (CENSORED) :upyours:

When someone fills their post with ignorance and bigotry towards a class of people that I feel I relate to, on top of all of the childish name calling, I choose not to respond. Take it any way you want to, (CENSORED) :upyours:

Maybe now you know how it feels - you are equally ignorant and bigoted about the affairs of Europe as he is about America.

Maybe now you know how it feels - you are equally ignorant and bigoted about the affairs of Europe as he is about America.
I'm not bigoted about Europe. I didn't say anything derogotory about Euopre. IN FACT, I believe I said that I like and deeply respect Europe. The only thing that may be construed as derogotory is that I said I think Europeans don't know what its like to be an American in this day and age. The same could be said in reverse.

Why should we respect the USA if the USA doens't respect the wishes of Europe or the world... For instance on world greenhouse gasses, UN tribunal at Den Hague (also for military criminals), defying the UN just because they can.

Yesterday a new law was voted by the UN so that they intervene faster when a genocide like in Rwanda and Yugoslavia happens. Bush immediatly linked it to terrorism: there is still a difference.

How do you want us, europeans, not say americans are ignorants if you mix al-Qaeda and Hizbula as the same pretty thing? Islam, and Christianity, it's a suit that you can wear for many diferents things. By the way, the ignorance come by the luck of interest about what happens out of the borders of the "best country in the world"

Free trade it's not the answer, although it's important but poverty will never disapear, just look in the streets of the Sleeping Giant.

The USA being a predominantly European origin nation at the end of World War II, even more so than now. Could have taken over Western Europe and made them US States and they did not do so, naturally that would have let to a war with Russia at the time, but the USA could have won that war.

Have the Europeans forgotten who they had to turn too for help during World War II?

Have the European nations forgotten the rebuilding of Europe after World War II?

I don't forgot how america (not all the americans) leave the first spanish democracy experience to fall down with his "neutrality" between Democracy and Fascism, and how after WWII Franco besides like a sure ally, giving naval and air bases and support against Comunism. We lived 40 years under a tiranny 'cause it was useful for the USA, and in Chile a Democratic Goverment fell with the support of the CIA, and there are many other cases like that.

The aim was not democracy and development but stopping the other rivel empire, the USSR. Not bad, but not angelical as you normally think. And USA forgotted for three times the help of Spain to the Independence in 1898, 1936 and 1945.

The USA being a predominantly European origin nation at the end of World War II, even more so than now. Could have taken over Western Europe and made them US States and they did not do so, naturally that would have let to a war with Russia at the time, but the USA could have won that war.

Have the Europeans forgotten who they had to turn too for help during World War II?

Have the European nations forgotten the rebuilding of Europe after World War II?

What a load of horse crap.

The USA goes against Europe at the end of world war two, okay two things would happen, first of all the Royal Navy which had a much larger presence in Europe would simply stop your army getting supplies, then secondly the British Army at home would simply start arresting all of your armed personnel. The Royal Air force would ground your air presence and start bombing the hell out of your forces.

The Canadian, Indian and Australian divisions would begin attacking you as well as the British forces, your commanders placed under arrest, and America would find itself without an army, equipment and severely embarrassed, as I doubt your military would even follow such an order, they were there as liberators, and such a contrasting directive would have shattered “The American Dream”.

Then you have the home front. The USA turning round and becoming like Nazi Germany overnight would not stand with the people, congress or the world. Sure, you almost had the atom bomb, but if America turned then Europe would have kept all those snazzy Nazi scientists and you would be finding your country a lot less developed than it already is. America would have lost such a campaign, simple as that.

Then the U.K and the USSR would have allied and an invasion of the United States planned. Keep in mind at that time the British Empire was in existence, and therefore our material resources far outstripped what we have currently. Your Navy and air forces would have still being concentrated on Japan, and a probable peace resolution with the U.K and Japan would follow, shutting down the British Asian front, subsequently releasing a lot more forces to contest the USA. Then the British Pacific fleet would have begun attacking the American forces. The UK, USSR, and Japanese Empire would all ally against this greater threat in the pacific theatre. Then the USA would use its two atom bombs. But how would you use them? You’re out of range of Europe, your Naval supremacy in Asia halted, so I doubt that this would have forced Europe into surrender, it would have probably instead, increased our resolve to exterminate every last American alive.

Then, lets see ah yes, the United States of America would then find its oil supplies being constricted, primarily as your country at that time got most of its imports from the Pacific, which was the reason behind the war with Japan I believe, (not too sure though)

Thirdly, Europe did not turn for help from the United States, we asked and then and then BOUGHT every single thing from the USA, we paid for every bullet and rifle, and I believe we are still paying off those debts today.

As for the USA being a sleeping giant, I think not, not any more. You no longer have the potential to fall into such a huge manufacturing boom. You no longer have all that labour simply waiting there to be used, to start working on the shipyards. America has become a developed nation with minimum wage, to start opening shipyards simply wouldn’t work, for one, most people simply wouldn’t know what to do and would simply refuse to work for low wages that the state would be providing, otherwise the USA would go bankrupt overnight.

America still has its mineral wealth of course, however alot of that lies in Canada, invading such a territory would be easy for the USA in its current military position, but keeping it would be another thing. Americans don’t like conflict close to home.

Which is why, as I said your little statement is horse crap.

Now tell me this. Why should we even care whats best for anyone but us? Apparently most of Europe hates America. My opinion is this.
-snip-
~EDIT~ By the way, I am a lover of ALL people. I am a great admirer of Europe. My opinion is that you have to be in someones shoes to appreciate why they do what they do. I think American policy is severely misunderstood!
then you have to be in our european shoes to understand that we no longer just do things for our own nations' benefit - we no longer only do "what's best only for us" but work together in a mulitlateral sense to achieve whats best for all of us.
hence the hostility towards america the bush administration at the moment (which is often confused, on both sides, as general anti-american sentiment) - you're doing things the unilateral, 'whats best for us and fuck you' way, while we've been doing that for centuries... and we know it leads to bad places. the progressive way forward is mulitlateralism, interdependance, working together in harmony for the greater good, not just saying 'we rule, we do what we like, so fuck you' as the general sentiment seems to be (particularly from the OP) :rolleyes:

i may have jumped in this thread a tad late...

then you have to be in our european shoes to understand that we no longer just do things for our own nations' benefit - we no longer only do "what's best only for us" but work together in a mulitlateral sense to achieve whats best for all of us.
hence the hostility towards america the bush administration at the moment (which is often confused, on both sides, as general anti-american sentiment) - you're doing things the unilateral, 'whats best for us and fuck you' way, while we've been doing that for centuries... and we know it leads to bad places. the progressive way forward is mulitlateralism, interdependance, working together in harmony for the greater good, not just saying 'we rule, we do what we like, so fuck you' as the general sentiment seems to be (particularly from the OP) :rolleyes:

i may have jumped in this thread a tad late...

Bullshit.

No matter what a country's people might think (and just as many Americans care for the rest of the world as Europeons -- perhaps even more. Look at the numbers for private relief donated to the tsunami. Also, just as many Europeons irrationally hate America as Americans irrationally hate Europe, our respective governments play up this hate for political gain), every government in the world has itself to think of first and would only ever consider helping someone else if it could benefit them in some way.

When was the last time a country really put itself on the line for an ally with no direct material benefit to itself? Never? Yep, never.

You know what bothers me about America Haters?

The fact that far too many of them generalize us yanks into one group.
They think all americans share the same opinions, or that every one of us are "fat" or "lazy", or anything.

Please people, just stop a second to remember that most of us are just like you.
We go to school or work, eat, sleep, and shit, just like any of you.

Not all of us like to trash third world countries for profit, and really, thats a pretty small group of people, who happen to be calling all the shots.
In fact, over 60% of Americans right now, arent very happy with those particular assholes.

Not so long ago, most of our ancestors came from your country, when things got pretty bad, and came here to start a new life.
Not too long ago, we were you.

So, for all you Europeans out there.

Relax.

America is realizing that letting douchebags run our country into the ground,
makes everyone else hate us, and doesnt do us any good.

Yes, there are douchebags in this country.
Scads of em.
But, most of us are pretty unassuming people, who like to live quiet little comfortable lives, and not bother anyone.
Most of us, really do care about the rest of the planet, and have even visted parts of it.

Yes, our government does some very assholish things.
We know, and dont like it either.
We just cant do much about it, becuase the people in charge are very smart bastards, and do it all nice and legally.

Besides, if perchance, most of your respective countries were attacked by a neighbor, or some tinpot dictatorship, the US would be the first country in line to help.

So, in closing, its fine if you dont like our politics.
Over half of this nation doesnt like it either.
But, please seperate our people, from our government, when you make decisions about us.

then you have to be in our european shoes to understand that we no longer just do things for our own nations' benefit - we no longer only do "what's best only for us" but work together in a mulitlateral sense to achieve whats best for all of us.
Of course Europe does whats best for all of Europe. Kinda like us with all 50 of our states. You say it like Europe acts in the interests of the whole world.

When was the last time a country really put itself on the line for an ally with no direct material benefit to itself? Never? Yep, never.

Germany, 1914. Arguably not the best decision in Germany's international politics, but there.

I think the world would be friendlier towards America if we got a really good president in office. Someone that the WHOLE country rallies around. When's the last time you saw an entirely blue or red map for an election? None of this well.... the candidates both suck, but this one matches my beliefs better... I guess.

Agreed.



Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe. That would make things worse, me thinks.

Damn straight I would. well...actually I'd rally if the country we want conquer is france, because the others aren't so bad.

Of course Europe does whats best for all of Europe. Kinda like us with all 50 of our states. You say it like Europe acts in the interests of the whole world.

No, not kinda like you with your 50 states. You have 50 states that have been one nation for much of their history.
Europe has 25 nations who had been at each others' throats for much of their history.

A good comparisson would be if the USA cared as much about Canada and Mexico as Germany does about France and the Netherlands...

He never said that. Although that was written into the Tora Tora Tora script. (great movie btw)

Yes, he did.

I'm not even going to respond to your bigotry and ignorance.
if by the term bigotry you mean whatever I wrote down in brackets, then I am sorry for going so into the head of the Bush family, but unfortounately this is the way the Bush administration thinks about the minorities and the poor mate, and I am sorry that you probably did not get my point.
Alas, come for a visit tro the south mediteranean area, and try ask some people why they think america is totally wrong mate....
Btw I do not despise americans, some of my friends come from the states, some of my dreamcars come from the states, and my fav band is american (the ramones), I just do not agree with the actions of most american administrations, concerning both americas internal and external politics...


Oh, and by the way the biggot you are talking to is a politics and sociology undergrad

Of course Europe does whats best for all of Europe. Kinda like us with all 50 of our states. You say it like Europe acts in the interests of the whole world.
i said 'all of us' implying all of europe. however the way we deal with international politics mirrors the way the EU is constructed, works, and the ideals it stands on - multilateral, mutually-beneficial, agreements wherever possible, using the 'carrot' and not the 'stick'. better that than the 'fuck you' unilateralism of american (read: Bush's) policy.

and thats my main point - in the UK at least its that unilateralism thats the object and start of the anti-american sentiment


just as many Europeons irrationally hate America as Americans irrationally hate Europe, our respective governments play up this hate for political gain), every government in the world has itself to think of first and would only ever consider helping someone else if it could benefit them in some way.
well evidently you're a hardcore realist, i'm an idealist (as us europeans tend to be)... so i'm not sure whether arguing is going to achieve anything here.

of course a national government won't engage in something thats going to disbenefit or damage their country in some way, but there's far more to it than your simple, blanket statement. far more sublety. its the way in which this idea is carried out that is the point of contention.


edit: don't get me wrong here - many of you will know i'm not in the 'america-hater' camp by any means. i, unlike many others (sadly), see the difference between America and the policies of G. W. Bush... its him i can't stand, and his actions that have both exemplified and made more extreme this difference in ideological basis of international policy between our counties

then I am sorry for going so into the head of the Bush family, but unfortounately this is the way the Bush administration thinks about the minorities and the poor mate, and I am sorry that you probably did not get my point.

And you know this first hand....how?

Oh and we got your point fine. I just hope you don't write your undergraduate thesis with the same refined english grammar we see here.

Your posts would be a lot easier to read if you punctuated.

if by the term bigotry you mean whatever I wrote down in brackets, then I am sorry for going so into the head of the Bush family, but unfortounately this is the way the Bush administration thinks about the minorities and the poor mate, and I am sorry that you probably did not get my point.
Alas, come for a visit tro the south mediteranean area, and try ask some people why they think america is totally wrong mate....
Btw I do not despise americans, some of my friends come from the states, some of my dreamcars come from the states, and my fav band is american (the ramones), I just do not agree with the actions of most american administrations, concerning both americas internal and external politics...


Oh, and by the way the biggot you are talking to is a politics and sociology undergrad
Yes, The bigotry I referred to was what was in brackets (parenthesis)
It really takes a genius to make fun of how people talk.
Thats an obvious crack at southern dialect, and when you disparage an entire area of a country, it makes you a bigot. And incidentally, why the hell should I care about your schooling? Some of the dumbest people I know were brainwashed in college. Especially with majors like that.

ok sorry for making a "crack" at the southern accent, guess I was too much into georgie boys mind,but as we say where I come from, I am pointing towards the sky and you only look at the finger mate.

But then again things tend to be a missunderstood when we talk through a computer screen(especially with somebody in the other side of the world, who probably does not have a clue about your mentality or your sense of humour).

(Faces the Europeans and America-haters)
Call me an idiot, but how am I a lazy, stupid, fat American with corrupt political ideas and hates Europe? The only thing I've ever done in this country is go to school here, and work a part-time job.

Oh, yeah, my bad... I was born in America.

That's moronic. I'm a 16 year old semi-normal girl who wants to be able to go to France next summer without worrying that people will hate me because George W. Bush runs my country.

(Turns and faces the Americans)
And I'm so sick of Americans bringing up old wars. "Well, we were there in WWII for you, so you should respect us indefinitely for all of eternity, no matter how much our government pisses you off." Yeah, it sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? Chances are good that you weren't even alive or involved it that war you keep going on about. And neither were they. Shut up.

(Turns and faces the entire crowd)
Go ahead, hate our government. I don't like Bush either. He's a moron and a bad leader. I would have a hard time picking a worse candidate for the icon of the U.S. But hating us for what he does is asinine and childish, so just grow up.

Well apparently all those jihadists are pissed of with america

For your information, said "jihadists" have been doing their schtick since the sixties. I suggest you look up Munich 1972 as an example. What's that? George Bush wasn't the President then?

Hey yeah...he wasn't.

Looks like you have some reading to do.

Several years worth.

, especially when it lets Israel do its walkies all over the Plaistinian people

Palestine does not exist as a country and never has.

Israel is a country by order of the United Nations.

Nice try. No facts. Try again.

....American foreign policy is a joke mate, and American internal policy too.

So was Germany's.And France in such a hurry to surrender (Vichy France and Laval, anyone?)

Dubya sent you in two really costly wars, and what did he do to finance them?

And the US fought two other costly wars prior to that..World War One and Two..not to mention the cost of rebuilding Europe after two tyrants wrecked it and tried to turn the rest of the world into a graveyard....

banned every attempt to regulate gun trafficking in the states


Post links and facts please.names, dates, legislation.

Otherwise I'm not listening.

..Oh and when he lied, people actually died, unlike billy boy.

Tired old meme trotted out time and again...getting so old it has whiskers.

Of course the fact that Clinton ignored the threat (what he didn't do after the FIRST WTC bombing is another story for another day) escaped you.

and as his secretary of state to grant him permition to go to the loo....

You fell for a photoshop job.Tsk tsk.

And it's spelled "permission".

No cookie for you.

He's a moron and a bad leader

I keep seeing this said, then I see other lunatic posts (The Dhimmicrappic Blunderbrains for example) accusing him of some of the most diabolical plots and subtle subterfuge that would make Ernst Stavro Blofeld green with envy.

Make up your bloody mind , will you?

Sheesh.

(Faces the Europeans and America-haters)
Call me an idiot, but how am I a lazy, stupid, fat American with corrupt political ideas and hates Europe? The only thing I've ever done in this country is go to school here, and work a part-time job.

Oh, yeah, my bad... I was born in America.

That's moronic. I'm a 16 year old semi-normal girl who wants to be able to go to France next summer without worrying that people will hate me because George W. Bush runs my country.

(Turns and faces the Americans)
And I'm so sick of Americans bringing up old wars. "Well, we were there in WWII for you, so you should respect us indefinitely for all of eternity, no matter how much our government pisses you off." Yeah, it sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? Chances are good that you weren't even alive or involved it that war you keep going on about. And neither were they. Shut up.

(Turns and faces the entire crowd)
Go ahead, hate our government. I don't like Bush either. He's a moron and a bad leader. I would have a hard time picking a worse candidate for the icon of the U.S. But hating us for what he does is asinine and childish, so just grow up.

Oh my God! Someone who makes sense! What are you doing here in this thread?

Nobody worth getting to know hates America. Honestly. They may judge you a bit harder and depending on your level of ignorance, hate you, but if you have plans to come to europe, chances are you're a bit more open to new things than those americans everyone loves to take as the "norm".

Oh yea. WWII was fought solely in Europe's interest because you're good hearted people. Pff. Funny how you stepped in just as Russia was gearing up. Looks like someone saw a bit too much competition. We thanked you for that now let it drop, that's like a child bringing up "oh, but I emptied the dishwasher twice more than you last year, so you have to do it now!"

I saw a recent poll that has got me thinking. 74% of Americans beleive Britain is a strong ally of the U.S. But other than that, NO other country scored above 50%! (even Canada)
I strongly suspect that most Europeans and others would strongly moderate their speech if the US would work harder at living up to the ideals we have always espoused. Just one old soldier's perception.

Thats the point. If were gonna be looked down upon, we might as well just do whats best for us.

Ever wondered WHY you're looked down upon? Could it be the whole "we are the greatest nation in the world, without us you people would have no freedom" mindset?

And to those who hate America because of Bush - it's easy to forget but hideous war crimes were also done during the Clinton administration, and under the Reagan administration, etc. What about the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - are we gonna blame Bush for that too?

Ever wondered WHY you're looked down upon? Could it be the whole "we are the greatest nation in the world, without us you people would have no freedom" mindset?

Considering that the United States constituted a vast majority of the troops that stormed ashore at Normandy on D Day 1944..therefore saving the rest of the world from Nazism..I'd say yes to that...America did save you.

Re Hiroshima and Nagasaki..that was necessary.

Sad, tragic..and necessary.

I strongly suspect that most Europeans and others would strongly moderate their speech if the US would work harder at living up to the ideals we have always espoused. Just one old soldier's perception.
Very true! Hey, BTW, did the hurricane mess ya up at all? I'm in Raleigh, and it pretty much just missed us.

or not?
Japan was not really capable of attacking anybody at that point

Japan was not really capable of attacking anybody at that point

A discussion for another day.

Considering that the United States constituted a vast majority of the troops that stormed ashore at Normandy on D Day 1944..therefore saving the rest of the world from Nazism..I'd say yes to that...America did save you.

Re Hiroshima and Nagasaki..that was necessary.

Sad, tragic..and necessary.
Jesus christ how many more times is this shallow, ill thought out inacurate statement going to be rolled out.

The atomic bombs were developed with much of the input from NONE US scientists.

I think you will find that there were nearly as many British (empire) soldiers there and you will also find they did a bit better getting off the beaches. But that was jsut how it panned out, no criticism.

The reason the UK was in the war in the first place was to protect allies, we never asked France, Poland or any other country for lend lease agreements or pay for our help, it was given. Because that's what allies do. Mercs on the other hand expect payment!

The US was one of the only countries to make a profit from the second world war, just think about that!!!!

Yes the US played a valuable part in the defeat of Hitler's Germany, but it was a part. I'd like to see you invade Europe with out Britain as a jumping off point.

What happened to the US in North Africa, you know where Monty was busy winning without your help?

Considering that the United States constituted a vast majority of the troops that stormed ashore at Normandy on D Day 1944..therefore saving the rest of the world from Nazism..I'd say yes to that...America did save you.

Re Hiroshima and Nagasaki..that was necessary.

Sad, tragic..and necessary.
Oh and while I'm venting my spleen, how about Radar that was given to the US, how about the JET ENGINE, not one penny was paid for either.

What about the supersonic research material the UK was conned out of?

Oh yes great record as an ally.

I strongly suspect that most Europeans and others would strongly moderate their speech if the US would work harder at living up to the ideals we have always espoused. Just one old soldier's perception.

*hands him a cookie...

I think you got it there. Nobody seriously hates America, that's plain ridiculous, what would be the point in that anyway?
But people here do get annoyed at what they perceive as bigotry and arrogance. It just makes you look bad to proclaim an ideal and expect respect just for the proclamation, without acting on it...

I strongly suspect that most Europeans and others would strongly moderate their speech if the US would work harder at living up to the ideals we have always espoused. Just one old soldier's perception.

I knew there was a reason I used to like you.

Well said, I'm sigging it.

Considering that the United States constituted a vast majority of the troops that stormed ashore at Normandy on D Day 1944..therefore saving the rest of the world from Nazism..I'd say yes to that...America did save you.


Watch Saving Private Ryan or U-571 much :rolleyes:

I strongly suspect that most Europeans and others would strongly moderate their speech if the US would work harder at living up to the ideals we have always espoused. Just one old soldier's perception.

Ding ding ding ding ding!
*Delivers a truckload of cookies to Eutrusca's house* :p :p

I strongly suspect that most Europeans and others would strongly moderate their speech if the US would work harder at living up to the ideals we have always espoused. Just one old soldier's perception.



brings the man/woman a pint

*hands him a cookie...

I think you got it there. Nobody seriously hates America, that's plain ridiculous, what would be the point in that anyway?
But people here do get annoyed at what they perceive as bigotry and arrogance. It just makes you look bad to proclaim an ideal and expect respect just for the proclamation, without acting on it...

*hands her a pint *
Its not the people, its their politicians I am sick of

I'm British, so yes ;)

I'm British, so yes ;)
So am I and I say No. We will in Dec next year pay the last of the money we were asked to pay for our allies help.
An ally yes a strong one no, the Anzac nations are better allies.

Ireland, my country, has always been a strong ally of the USA, and vice versa. Hell, you should see how many American products are co-produced in Ireland, there's a massive list of them. Not to mention, diplomatic, tourism and military agreements. I would say that Ireland, the UK and Italy are the USA's strongest ally's in Europe.

@ Unified Sith:

You say that after WW2 Britain could have, potentially, beaten America. Well, considering Britain was economically exhausted after WW2 and needed billions of US Dollars under the Marhsall Plan to rebuild, i doubt your theory holds any creedence, and is inherent of British bullishness.

Britain was a great power, but that ended on VJ day. You lost all your empire. Heck, you lost North America in 1776 and then we, the Irish, kicked your ass in the Revolutionary War (Anglo-Irish War of the early 1920s). You couldn't beat a band of poorly armed guerrillas in the late 1700s and you couldn't beat them in the early 1920s either.

Britain has always had these delusions of grandeur, but you are really three separate cultural entities, Welsh, Scottish and English. You fought the piece out for hundreds of years and then you put your foot in it by invading my country, and then let my ancestors kick your ass for a few hundred more years, until you finally gave up.

Britain has also not been the best of allies to the USA, you sort of invaded them in 1812, and they kicked your ass again. Then in the 20th Century they have to give you arms for WW1 and WW2, and then you insult them by not going to Vietnam, Australia, South Korea and Thailand all helped, where were the Tommies? Oh yeah, Borneo...scaaary! You also failed to help in Grenada in 83 and in Panama from 89-96. Despite the fact that without US Intelligence assets during the Falklands you would certainly, as British Historians actually admit, not have won, at least not with the forces you sent at that point.

Very true! Hey, BTW, did the hurricane mess ya up at all? I'm in Raleigh, and it pretty much just missed us.
No. We live lots further West than Raleigh ... think Greensboro & Winston-Salem. :)

*hands him a cookie...

I think you got it there. Nobody seriously hates America, that's plain ridiculous, what would be the point in that anyway?
But people here do get annoyed at what they perceive as bigotry and arrogance. It just makes you look bad to proclaim an ideal and expect respect just for the proclamation, without acting on it...
Eats your ... um ... THE cookie. :D

Yeah. Especially during the Cold War the US often did things more based on percieved self-interest than our stated idealism. The American people, based on their response to things like the SE Asian tsunami, Katrina, etc., are still in possession of their idealism though. Too bad we can't just kick out ALL the current crop of politicians ( per a suggestion by someone in another thread ) and start with a totally new crop.

I've always thought that the people should have a national plebiscite where they decide who, out of everyone in the entire Country, should lead us, and that those selected should be frakkin' DRAFTED for the term of office ... no choice, you WILL serve! :D

The USA is hardly a sleeping giant. It's a wide-awake raging hormonal clumsy cock-eyed kinda tall guy with poor depth perception. But apart from that he'd be mildly attractive.

I knew there was a reason I used to like you.

Well said, I'm sigging it.
USE to??? :eek:

Just randomly select your senators/congress and all regional assemblies then randomly pick people to run for prez/governor, one term only.

Ding ding ding ding ding!
*Delivers a truckload of cookies to Eutrusca's house* :p :p
Ooooooooo! [ gets fat ] :D

Eats your ... um ... THE cookie. :D

Yeah. Especially during the Cold War the US often did things more based on percieved self-interest than our stated idealism. The American people, based on their response to things like the SE Asian tsunami, Katrina, etc., are still in possession of their idealism though. Too bad we can't just kick out ALL the current crop of politicians ( per a suggestion by someone in another thread ) and start with a totally new crop.

I've always thought that the people should have a national plebiscite where they decide who, out of everyone in the entire Country, should lead us, and that those selected should be frakkin' DRAFTED for the term of office ... no choice, you WILL serve! :D

I think Douglas Adams once said something to the effect of "the only people who deserve to rule a country are those who don't want to do it" ... and as with so many things, I think he was right.

Edit : Btw, why can't you? I always thought one of the reasons you guys insist on keeping insane amounts of guns at home would be to overthrow the government if it became corrupt and tyrannical? What are you waiting for? How much more corrupt can they possibly get? ;)

brings the man/woman a pint
[ Drinks the pint gratefully! ] **SLURP**

BTW ... you really should activate your "View Signatures" option. It's male. :D

USE to??? :eek:

I've been here a goodly while (other names, you know how it is). You just managed to annoy me a lot over the last month or so (I think it was the point where you got really annoyed about people calling you a 'centrist').

Oh yeah, have a Real Ale. *tosses a pint of Pedigree*

I think Douglas Adams once said something to the effect of "the only people who deserve to rule a country are those who don't want to do it" ... and as with so many things, I think he was right.

Edit : Btw, why can't you? I always thought one of the reasons you guys insist on keeping insane amounts of guns at home would be to overthrow the government if it became corrupt and tyrannical? What are you waiting for? How much more corrupt can they possibly get? ;)
The tolerance level for governmental incompetence is rather high among the population here. A revolt here usually takes the form of a lopsided swing from one major political party to the other. For the US to kick over the traces and sweep BOTH parties out of power would be a political revolt of major proportions and is highly unlikely to occur unless the situation is dire almost beyond belief.

A major reason why this is so is the media-driven cult of celebrity. All too many people are content to settle for surface appearances ( as shown on the evening news ), as opposed to actual substantive ability. Sigh.

Now tell me this. Why should we even care whats best for anyone but us? Apparently most of Europe hates America. My opinion is this.

There are tough times coming in this world. It is my great fear that peace will not prevail without great amounts of violence. So what side of the "Sleeping Giant" does everyone want to be on? Because if you keep talking a bunch of shit about America, she may not be there for you when you fall of your big European horse.
I voted ally, but before reading this. My mistake. It's exactly this kind of talk that makes people not like America.

I've been here a goodly while (other names, you know how it is). You just managed to annoy me a lot over the last month or so (I think it was the point where you got really annoyed about people calling you a 'centrist').

Oh yeah, have a Real Ale. *tosses a pint of Pedigree*
Sorry about that ... really. But I too tend to get really irritated when others presume to tell me who and what I am. Forgive me? [ big, winning smile ] :D

I voted ally, but before reading this. My mistake. It's exactly this kind of talk that makes people not like America.
It's verbal violence begetting verbal violence. Take a deep breath, everyone, and say something positive. :)

Tell that to Al- qiaeda or Hezbollah or Hamas or all the other Jihadists.

...or the warlords in Africa, Kim Jong-Il, etc.

note to doves: bad people/rulers don't just *poof* disappear. They need to be dealt with. Words generally don't work. As long as there are people who would do harm to us, or as long as there are rulers who oppress their own people, we'll need to present a military presence... because, i'm afraid, Europe hasn't got the stuff to do it by themselves. If the US had left Saddam to Europe, he'd still be in power and 80% of iraqis would still be aftraid for their lives.

It's verbal violence begetting verbal violence. Take a deep breath, everyone, and say something positive. :)
Something positive: I like America, I like the Americans.

Something negative: Some people are just too arrogant about the power of their country. It's like a guy that's much bigger than you. You know he can kick your ass, he knows it too, but you can still be friends. However, if he starts saying things like, 'I could beat you, but I won't because I'm such a nice guy', suddenly a friendsip becomes harder to imagine.

You see, in my country more than 10% of folks have these things called "Passports" which enable us to visit other countries and expand our knowledge of the world. We don't disregard all other countries as inferiour without visiting them, you see.



And that's why they don't like us. We know nothing of their countries or culture, but automatically assume we're better than they are.

...or the warlords in Africa, Kim Jong-Il, etc.

note to doves: bad people/rulers don't just *poof* disappear. They need to be dealt with. Words generally don't work. As long as there are people who would do harm to us, or as long as there are rulers who oppress their own people, we'll need to present a military presence... because, i'm afraid, Europe hasn't got the stuff to do it by themselves. If the US had left Saddam to Europe, he'd still be in power and 80% of iraqis would still be aftraid for their lives.

Point taken. Now if you would be so kind to remove some more evil dictators the world would be much obliged (save for the dictators).

I've just seen far too many "We could whip all of Europe only using people between 65 and 80. We pwn you hard." claims. It's tiring.

I'd never seen one of those. But its probably true.

Something positive: I like America, I like the Americans.

Something negative: Some people are just too arrogant about the power of their country. It's like a guy that's much bigger than you. You know he can kick your ass, he knows it too, but you can still be friends. However, if he starts saying things like, 'I could beat you, but I won't because I'm such a nice guy', suddenly a friendsip becomes harder to imagine.
And your suggestion as to what we should do with people who make that sort of statment is ... what?? Incarcerate them? Their freedom of speech is covered by the Constitution. Deport them? For what, and to where? Educate them? With all the emphasis on "politically correct speech" the past few years, if they're not educated to temper their speech by this point, chances are they never will.

When was the last time a country really put itself on the line for an ally with no direct material benefit to itself? Never? Yep, never.
Sweden printed tens of thousands of passports for jews in WW II so they could get out of the way of the holocaust. I don't think we earned much money on that one... We did lose the diplomat who did the whole operation though.

And...

Because if you keep talking a bunch of shit about America, she may not be there for you when you fall of your big European horse.
Who is on a high horse did you say?

Edit: I meant him, personally, according to that post. Not the US.

Because if you keep talking a bunch of shit about America, she may not be there for you when you fall of your big European horse

Looking at it economically, it seems as if America will need Europe when the American horse falls over. Mark Lenord wrote a very good book about this called "Why Europe will run the 21st Century". I have read about 2/3rds of it and it makes a good case. It makes a good point which is that in the 21st Century Europe looks at every other country as a potenital friend where as America looks at every other country as a potential enemy.

Oh man, is this pissing contest still going on?

If the US had left Saddam to Europe, he'd still be in power and 80% of iraqis would still be aftraid for their lives.

As opposed to now where 90% are...

Well getting on the bad side of America is not so bad. Thanks to Presedint Bush it is no longer a sleeping giant. That status has been transfered to China. I am an american.

Having spent the better part of 20 minutes reading this drivel I've come to one conclusion:

Most Europeans (on this particular forum) are convinced that they know what's best for the rest of the world. (funny, they claim that the United States behaves in this manner and that's why they deride us).

I spent 12 years in the U.S. Army, I've served alongside Brits, Canadians, Germans, Syrians, Isrealis, Senegalese, Mexicans (the country not the individual), French, Czech and Russian soldiers....not a single one of them had anything negative to say about our Nation.

I of course formed opinions on other nations during my travels...the Brits I don't like...why? Because they just don't get FREEDOM and what it means...if they did they'd be out of Northern Ireland, you'd think 1776 and 1812 would've taught them by now. The Germans are great, fantastic culture, wonderful people, clean and beautiful country and they routinely handle their politics internally without allowing other countries perceptions to interfere. The French I have little to no use for...you want to talk about an arrogant country you need to be talking about France. (My ancestory is French so save your crap for someone who cares). The Canadians are good people, I would have no reservations about spending our money or blood to help them in times of need.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that yes, we Americans are indeed proud of our contributions to the world and even to the nations that we supported throughout our history....you can claim that we only did it for the money, that's entirely your right, but the fact it that without the assistance you received from us before, during, and after our entry into the war you'd probably be speaking English with a slightly different accent than you are now. In addition, Britain, I can't claim to be positive, but I'm relatively sure that a large percentage of your debt was forgiven and written off so you can save your "Oh my, we had to actually pay for what we got from you" whining, I doubt 10 Downing street is in the habit of giving away billions of Pounds worth of stuff away on a regular basis either.

I voted for Bush the first time, and again the second time...would I do so again? Probably not as he's done a lot of things I don't agree with domestically. But if the choice is between my getting to elect whom I believe is best for my Nation and what you, the EU want....well you're likely to be unhappy with my decision.

Sorry about that ... really. But I too tend to get really irritated when others presume to tell me who and what I am. Forgive me? [ big, winning smile ] :D

All is forgiven. In all honesty, I acted more of a dick than you back then. Sorry.

The US, a "sleeping giant" ????!+?

1940s right?



Because you're fing delusional if you're talking about modern times,

unless of course,
you have not been paying any attention to US foreign policy (before Bush got into office).

In which case I would not call you delusional at all,
but simply "a regular american, who like most other americans
have not been paying attention to what our gov't has been doing
in foreign policy either overtly or of course covertly(and unconstitutionally I might add)".

The US gov't has been doing quite a bit of damage over the last 60 years.
Let's see here - overthrowing people's democratically elected gov'ts.
immoral enough there. no need to go on. but we could.



A sleeping giant not has the US (gov't) been.
Perhaps "While you were sleeping", guess what you're gov't
has been doing.



If, say, we want to withdraw from the rest of the world.....
ok, fine, we don't get ANY resource from ANY other part of
the world whatsoever.
No fruits from central america, no nikes from Indonesia,
no cheap plastic toys or other manufactured goods from China,
no computers from Japan, no Nestle chocolate bars from the Swiss,
no chocolate from west Africa.

If we want to withdraw,
ok fine,
just don't lie and say
one thing and don't actually do it.

hey, (hands in the air in front, defensive manner)
just a matter of honesty here.
if we should with draw, we should withdraw.
let's not be pricks about it.

~angry white male

The US, a "sleeping giant" ????!+?

1940s right?



Because you're fing delusional if you're talking about modern times,

unless of course,
you have not been paying any attention to US foreign policy (before Bush got into office).

In which case I would not call you delusional at all,
but simply "a regular american, who like most other americans
have not been paying attention to what our gov't has been doing
in foreign policy either overtly or of course covertly(and unconstitutionally I might add)".

The US gov't has been doing quite a bit of damage over the last 60 years.
Let's see here - overthrowing people's democratically elected gov'ts.
immoral enough there. no need to go on. but we could.



A sleeping giant not has the US (gov't) been.
Perhaps "While you were sleeping", guess what you're gov't
has been doing.



If, say, we want to withdraw from the rest of the world.....
ok, fine, we don't get ANY resource from ANY other part of
the world whatsoever.
No fruits from central america, no nikes from Indonesia,
no cheap plastic toys or other manufactured goods from China,
no computers from Japan, no Nestle chocolate bars from the Swiss,
no chocolate from west Africa.

If we want to withdraw,
ok fine,
just don't lie and say
one thing and don't actually do it.

hey, (hands in the air in front, defensive manner)
just a matter of honesty here.
if we should with draw, we should withdraw.
let's not be pricks about it.

~angry white male
O.K. Show me where I said we should withdraw from the world Mr. "Angry white male"
And as far as the sleeping giant comment, heres a bit of info for you. We have 140,000 troops total in Iraq. Another 40,000 or so in Afhganistan? (probably bot even that high) Considering the fact that we have over 300,000 personel JUST in the airforce, and enough weaponry to level the world 10 times over, and the fact that we could, in essence, cripple most economies by " withrawing" from the world.

I don't think the military has really even flexed its muscles fully since WW2.


BTW~ I AM NOT advocating withdrawl from the world, or leveling the world 10 times over, so don't start misconceiving my post. Just letting "Angry white male" here know what I ment by Sleeping Giant

America does not have friends, only interests that it uses for it's own profit and gain.


That is not friendship, that's being a bully and a user.

America's foreign policy has led to the biggest causes of conflict, pain, deaths and torment in the world.

The thread maker asked what side people would be on.

On one side you have a Fascist Empire intent on enslaving the world, the worst threat to the freedom of the human race, world peace and earth since Hitler.

On the other side you have 'Islamic' militants intent on blowing up everything and killing people indiscriminately never mind if they have a good reason for it or not who also threaten world peace, very much like the Fascist Empire.

Excuse me if I say to both sides: Sod the both of you.

I'll be one of the buggers picking up the pieces, if I can survive the nuclear ash.

I'm an American and America is not my allied with herself. What does that go under?

There are tough times coming in this world. It is my great fear that peace will not prevail without great amounts of violence. So what side of the "Sleeping Giant" does everyone want to be on? Because if you keep talking a bunch of shit about America, she may not be there for you when you fall of your big European horse.

~EDIT~ By the way, I am a lover of ALL people. I am a great admirer of Europe. My opinion is that you have to be in someones shoes to appreciate why they do what they do. I think American policy is severely misunderstood!



peace come through violence?
Must have missed Orwell's 1984, huh?

No, the US was no sleeping giant.
That's a line of bull.
The US gov't has been very engaged in the rest of the world,
all corners.

- oh, i'm as american as you and i oppose our corrupt foreign policy
that was horrendous way before GWBush ran for prez

As an European I'm quite confused. Before I began to read this forum I never had the idea that we Europeans hate America, as it is suggested here that often. I never met any person who does so, nor do I myself. We disagree in politics sometimes and we certainly was p***ed when the american government tried to dictate our politics and force us into a war we did not want, but nobody I know hates the american people because of this.

But after having read many threads like this I am wondering why so many Americans think we hate them. :confused:

Have the Europeans forgotten who they had to turn too for help during World War II?

Europe didn't turn to the USA in WWII, Hitler declared war on the USA on Dec. 11/41, or do people from the USA forget that? Should be the question.

Excuse me if I say to both sides: Sod the both of you.

I'll be one of the buggers picking up the pieces, if I can survive the nuclear ash.
You don't say where you're from, and I can't say I blame you. What, pray tell, would you like to see happen? You're obviously capable of throwing stones, but offer nothing in the way of solutions.

Stephistan, not to argue with you, as technically you are correct in that Hitler did indeed declare war on the United States, however Lend-Lease and several other programs were already in full swing at the behest of the British government LONG before that occured.

I'm an American and America is not my allied with herself. What does that go under?
Un ... incomprehesibility?

Stephistan, not to argue with you, as technically you are correct in that Hitler did indeed declare war on the United States, however Lend-Lease and several other programs were already in full swing at the behest of the British government [b]LONG[/b} before that occured.

And we're still paying... In cold hard cash.

I have to say that while "shut up and sit down you bunch of stupid arsebandits" is not a diplomatic way of putting it it is pretty much the only sane response to all this.

... after having read many threads like this I am wondering why so many Americans think we hate them. :confused:
Perhaps for the same reasons so many Americans seem to have such warped views of their own Country: they yell louder.

Europe didn't turn to the USA in WWII, Hitler declared war on the USA on Dec. 11/41, or do people from the USA forget that? Should be the question.
Dec 11, 1941 - Germany declares war on the United States.

Stephistan, not to argue with you, as technically you are correct in that Hitler did indeed declare war on the United States, however Lend-Lease and several other programs were already in full swing at the behest of the British government LONG before that occured.
True, and I've seen several on here aledge that President Roosevelt deliberately ignored information about the impending Peral Harbor attacks, hoping that they would drive public outrage sufficient to overcome Americans' reluctance to participate in saving Europe.

Europe didn't turn to the USA in WWII, Hitler declared war on the USA on Dec. 11/41, or do people from the USA forget that? Should be the question.Dec 11, 1941 - Germany declares war on the United States.

Eee, you're clever.

True, and I've seen several on here aledge that President Roosevelt deliberately ignored information about the impending Peral Harbor attacks, hoping that they would drive public outrage sufficient to overcome Americans' reluctance to participate in saving Europe.

Every forum has its fair share of tinfoil hat wearing individuals Eutrusca. I choose to believe that, while mistakes were obviously made that allowed the Japanese to achieve such a dramatic surpise attack, no sitting American Leader would idly sit by and allow thousands of his or her countrymen to die like that. (now I'll sit back and wait for our friends to claim that Bush did it on 9/11) :D

As for the individual complaining about still paying in Cold Hard Cash....that's a good thing......if you don't think so, take a loan out on a house and stop paying for it and see how long you get to keep it.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm still paying, in Cold Hard Cash, for my mortgage as well.....given that it's unlikely that the British Isles would still exist as a free and independent nation without the purchase of the tools required to ward off NAZI aggression, I'd submit that you could view your countrys payments as a mortgage payment on your home which is almost paid for.

As an European I'm quite confused. Before I began to read this forum I never had the idea that we Europeans hate America, as it is suggested here that often. I never met any person who does so, nor do I myself. We disagree in politics sometimes and we certainly was p***ed when the american government tried to dictate our politics and force us into a war we did not want, but nobody I know hates the american people because of this.

But after having read many threads like this I am wondering why so many Americans think we hate them. :confused:

To be honest, I've been trying to find that out for months now. Same as creationism, I only ever met that attitude on this forum. I never before heard any European declaring that they hate America, and in fairness, I have never seen anyone declaring that here either. Yet some Americans persist that it is the case and that the whole of Europe is deeply jealous, ungrateful and communist and therefore every single European hates them....

Interesting psychology involved, really. Those threads make for fantastic reads if you know the basics of Freud and C.G.Jung

I think Europe is becoming an enemy of the US. Why? Their press. Their news. I've seen european newspapers talking about how the US was humbled by a simple storm, as if the deadly European heatwaves never happened. They think all Americans are Bush-hugging racist red-neck morons all because the choices in the leection were all lousy. I wouldn't be surprised if most Europeans are burning American flags right now based off of what they basicly hear about the US. I used to think that the only European nation that was basicly anti-US was France. I just never saw European press then. If the Europeans don't like this opinion, do something about it. Boycotts. More newspapers. Just no more stereotypical gloating. Also, half the Americans who could afford to go to Europe were our stupid rich snobs. I also doubt most Europeans truly know any Americans. Oh well. It's not like the US depends on European support, other than good ole UK. I mean, the US has had mostly good relations with the UK. We quickly went from waging a full-scale war to friendly relations to another full-scale war to friendly relations again. The reason the US didn't help the French revolution was because we were worried about losing Brittian's friendship. The Americans kept good care of Brittish POW's, even though the British began using cruelty to get aMericans to help them fight the Americans. Plus, as long as there are Europeans actually thinking that the US never helped them at all, Americans will use the WWII excuse to prove the absolute wrong.

Stephistan, not to argue with you, as technically you are correct in that Hitler did indeed declare war on the United States, however Lend-Lease and several other programs were already in full swing at the behest of the British government LONG before that occured.

Yes and the USA was paid very well for Lend-Lease, but you see what a lot of people don't realize is Lend-Lease was not the only program going on, Canadian war factories were safe from bombing. Canada became an arsenal, and was Britain's chief overseas supplier of war materiel. Canada did not accept American Lend-Lease aid. Actually Canada ran its own lend-lease program for its allies called "Mutual Aid", supplying its allies with four billion dollars worth of war materiel. A further credit of a billion dollars was given to Britain. The USA helped the USSR out probably more than any other one country as far as Lend-Lease went, but Canada was the biggest supplier for the UK, A lot of people seem to forget that in WWII Canada had a highly trained and large army, they just think of the way that Canada is now and has shrunk the army to almost nothing. But Canada was the second best trained army in WWII. Most people don't know that. Throughout the war, Canada provided training facilities and instruction to airmen from all over the world in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, graduating 132,000 pilots and aircrew, over half of whom were Canadian.

U.S. president F.D. Roosevelt called Canada "the aerodrome of democracy".

Do you know why most people don't know that? Because Canada doesn't keep telling people in Europe "You owe us" Canada was in fact quite humble about what they did in WWII. Because we Canadians see it as one fight, we don't break it up into who did what and where, we just see that we all had one goal and if that goal was to rid the world of Hitler we did it and we did it together, no one country can take credit for that.

As for the individual complaining about still paying in Cold Hard Cash....that's a good thing......if you don't think so, take a loan out on a house and stop paying for it and see how long you get to keep it.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm still paying, in Cold Hard Cash, for my mortgage as well.....given that it's unlikely that the British Isles would still exist as a free and independent nation without the purchase of the tools required to ward off NAZI aggression, I'd submit that you could view your countrys payments as a mortgage payment on your home which is almost paid for.

There's a slight flaw in that comparrison :
Your bank or mortgage company will not demand eternal gratitude and assistance with unrelated financial issues, they'll just demand that you make your payments and won't interfere otherwise...

And your suggestion as to what we should do with people who make that sort of statment is ... what?? Incarcerate them? Their freedom of speech is covered by the Constitution. Deport them? For what, and to where? Educate them? With all the emphasis on "politically correct speech" the past few years, if they're not educated to temper their speech by this point, chances are they never will.
Sorry for the delayed response. I'm not proposing anything.

I was just pointing out that that kind of behaviour won't earn you too many friends. Like I said: I like America and the Americans, but I do understand why some people don't.

I think Europe is becoming an enemy of the US.
As a European, I can tell you you're wrong.

Plus, as long as there are Europeans actually thinking that the US never helped them at all, Americans will use the WWII excuse to prove the absolute wrong.
As a Romanian, now, how did you help us?

There's a slight flaw in that comparrison :
Your bank or mortgage company will not demand eternal gratitude and assistance with unrelated financial issues, they'll just demand that you make your payments and won't interfere otherwise...

I'm not positive on this, but the last time I checked, the Government of the United States didn't call Tony B. and tell him that if he didn't get off his duff and pitch in with this whole Iraq thing that we'd begin levelling UK cities.....

I don't see anyone demanding eternal anything, I do see people reminding what appear to be ungrateful baby boomer Europeans that whether you like the U.S. or not, if it weren't for them your life would be a hell of alot different than it is today.

My personal opinion, while not very realistic whatsoever, is that we should pull out of Europe entirely and allow you (the Europeans) to beat yourselves senseless as you've shown wont to do.

Canada doesn't keep telling them that because they don't consistently blame Canada for the ills in their own economy or social structure of their nation....not a valid comparison.

Yet most Canadians feel the same way about the USA as Europe does, and the USA didn't do anything for Canada during WWII, so I don't think it's just Europe.

I don't see anyone demanding eternal anything,

So how come every debate like this I hear a US citizen say 'We saved your ass in WW2, be grateful'.

Yes and the USA was paid very well for Lend-Lease, but you see what a lot of people don't realize is Lend-Lease was not the only program going on, Canadian war factories were safe from bombing. Canada became an arsenal, and was Britain's chief overseas supplier of war materiel. Canada did not accept American Lend-Lease aid. Actually Canada ran its own lend-lease program for its allies called "Mutual Aid", supplying its allies with four billion dollars worth of war materiel. A further credit of a billion dollars was given to Britain. The USA helped the USSR out probably more than any other one country as far as Lend-Lease went, but Canada was the biggest supplier for the UK, A lot of people seem to forget that in WWII Canada had a highly trained and large army, they just think of the way that Canada is now and has shrunk the army to almost nothing. But Canada was the second best trained army in WWII. Most people don't know that. Throughout the war, Canada provided training facilities and instruction to airmen from all over the world in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, graduating 132,000 pilots and aircrew, over half of whom were Canadian.

U.S. president F.D. Roosevelt called Canada "the aerodrome of democracy".

Do you know why most people don't know that? Because Canada doesn't keep telling people in Europe "You owe us" Canada was in fact quite humble about what they did in WWII. Because we Canadians see it as one fight, we don't break it up into who did what and where, we just see that we all had one goal and if that goal was to rid the world of Hitler we did it and we did it together, no one country can take credit for that.


Canada doesn't keep telling them that because they don't consistently blame Canada for the ills in their own economy or social structure of their nation....not a valid comparison.

So how come every debate like this I hear a US citizen say 'We saved your ass in WW2, be grateful'.

Because in every debate like this some wanker comes out and claims that the United States never does anything to help Europe unless they can make a buck off of it.

Were you a student of history you'd know that the majority of this country didn't want to be involved in your little World War, it was a problem "over there" and nothing of our concern.....we had our own issues to contend with in the Pacific.....it wasn't until Japan nailed P.H. and Germany declared war on us that we entered the fracas, and then we put our own agenda on the back burner to concentrate on knocking Germany out of the war since our allies (you know, the Europeans that Adolph was busy slapping around like an ugly girl on prom night) were in a fight for their lives and weren't holding up so well......France had already ceased to exist for all intents and purposes and the UK was trapped on what amounted to an island aircraft carrier with little to no hope of ever returning to the offensive......so you tell me again why in the world the United States shouldn't remind the occasional ingrate from Europe that it was because the most industrialized, most economically and resource rich nation in the world joined the battle and pulled your collective asses out of the fire?

Nalaraider, I have nothing against the US, but a few posts ago you had some rather depreciative comments about the Brits and the French. I'm neither French, nor British, but if I were, your comments would not have made me love your country.

Because in every debate like this some wanker comes out and claims that the United States never does anything to help Europe unless they can make a buck off of it.

One moment you complain that We complain at paying back lend-lease now this :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, I'm at work and don't have time to read all of the posts, so if anyone has already brought this up, sorry to be redundant.

1. Just because the US is the giant now, does that mean it will always be the giant? Russia was a giant once. So was Rome. How long before the US giant turns into the US paper tiger?

2. I think the US should care about what others think of us because we might not want to have China be the *only* country in the world that will do business with us. They're not our friends, you know, and the way they're acting like it now makes me look for a European to hide behind.

3. "King of the Hill" is a stupid, boring, violent, pointless, childish game that accomplishes nothing. Maybe there are better uses for US money, labor, connections, and resources than making a target out of ourselves.

4. I'm an American.

I don't see how selling war equipment at cost constitutes "making a buck" so I therefore fail to see your point.

You not recall the concept of interest on Lend-lease?

And the Marshall Plan had plenty of interest tacked on too...

One moment you complain that We complain at paying back lend-lease now this :rolleyes:


I don't see how selling war equipment at cost constitutes "making a buck" so I therefore fail to see your point.

I'm not positive on this, but the last time I checked, the Government of the United States didn't call Tony B. and tell him that if he didn't get off his duff and pitch in with this whole Iraq thing that we'd begin levelling UK cities.....

They didn't have to, did they? He was already halfway up Bush's ass out of his own accord. But they did start the name-calling soon enough when they realised that some nations were not groveling and crawling to their taste...


I don't see anyone demanding eternal anything, I do see people reminding what appear to be ungrateful baby boomer Europeans that whether you like the U.S. or not, if it weren't for them your life would be a hell of alot different than it is today.

Our life would be different, too, if it weren't for Sovjet Russia, France and Britain.
Oh, and while you're at it, just for laughs, go tell a Spanish person that their life would be different if it weren't for the US. They lived through the hell of 40 years of US-sponsored, fascist dictatorship....


My personal opinion, while not very realistic whatsoever, is that we should pull out of Europe entirely and allow you (the Europeans) to beat yourselves senseless as you've shown wont to do.

I think you are confusing Europe with some other region on the planet... You have virtually no presence left in Europe, bar a few NATO troups, if I remember correctly. I don't think we would care much if you withdrew those as well...

The country couldnt handle a crisis like the hurricane katrina and here you are asking or perhaps telling us that america is the sleeping giant. Perhaps my friend you should give up drinking,smoking and even sex, as it seems to me that your oxygen levels in your brain are very low, infact i think your considered clinical dead !!!! :headbang:

As an European I'm quite confused. Before I began to read this forum I never had the idea that we Europeans hate America, as it is suggested here that often. I never met any person who does so, nor do I myself. We disagree in politics sometimes and we certainly was p***ed when the american government tried to dictate our politics and force us into a war we did not want, but nobody I know hates the american people because of this.

But after having read many threads like this I am wondering why so many Americans think we hate them. :confused:

The political balance on this forum is unlike that in real life, and many posters are young and have little world experience. Owing to the anonymity of the internet many people here are more shrill and strident in expressing their likes and dislikes than they would be in real life - at least I hope that's the case, if I'm wrong then some of these folks are in for a rude awakening when they talk like this to strangers.

Some of what is said in here would get them shunned, if not knocked off a barstool, in many places.

I take anything said here with a grain of salt.

"American Arrogance".

"Because if you keep talking a bunch of shit about America, she may not be there for you when you fall of your big European horse.

End of class.

Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe. That would make things worse, me thinks.


However, it would be fun to watch Americas downfall. I mean come on, America couldn't defeat Europe. They'd struggle against just the UK and Germany

However, it would be fun to watch Americas downfall. I mean come on, America couldn't defeat Europe. They'd struggle against just the UK and Germany

I don't see any reason why they would even want to try it in the first place?

Germany is currently watching their backs in Afghanistan, and Britain is helping them out in Iraq. If they keep that pace of declaring war on foreign countries, they are going to desperately need European troops...

SNIP

what's this! Britain on last legs you do know we won the battle of Britain with out your help and besides Russia and the British empire could of won WWII without your help (and kept Japan out of the war if the U.S wasn't stirring about the pacific whilst WWII was on) though this would of led to world communism at least we wouldn't have a nation blabbering on about how they saved are asses

seriously if America pulled out everywhere we would just unify and start putting are money back into defence (an E.U nation could easily overtake China and America's economy’s)

what's this! Britain on last legs you do know we won the battle of Britain with out your help and besides Russia and the British empire could of won WWII without your help (and kept Japan out of the war if the U.S wasn't stirring about the pacific whilst WWII was on) though this would of led to world communism at least we wouldn't have a nation blabbering on about how they saved are asses

seriously if America pulled out everywhere we would just unify and start putting are money back into defence (an E.U nation could easily overtake China and America's economy’s)

Indeed, note the date, it was 1940, USA had not even entered the war, not until they had war declared on them in 1941 by Hitler.

B]Battle of Britain

About 104 Canadian pilots flew in the Battle of Britain (August-October 1940), some of them in the all-Canadian R.A.F. 242 Squadron and the rest with various squadrons. Their numbers as non-British pilots were second only to the Poles (who were expatriates whose air force had already been destroyed by the Luftwaffe). Twenty Canadian pilots lost their lives in stemming the German onslaught.

On August 30, in a major engagement, 242 Squadron attacked a formation of over 100 Germans and shot down 12. None of the squadron's planes were lost.

150 posts in a discussion who got the biggest...

Sheesh, people, grow up.

To the Americans: yes indeed, you got the biggest
To the Europeans: theirs is bigger, but your technique is more sophisticated
To the rest of the world: don't worry, size don't matter

what's this! Britain on last legs you do know we won the battle of Britain with out your help and besides Russia and the British empire could of won WWII without your help (and kept Japan out of the war if the U.S wasn't stirring about the pacific whilst WWII was on) though this would of led to world communism at least we wouldn't have a nation blabbering on about how they saved are asses

seriously if America pulled out everywhere we would just unify and start putting are money back into defence (an E.U nation could easily overtake China and America's economy’s)
You know, replacing American Arrogance with European Arrogance is just as bad right?

You know, replacing American Arrogance with European Arrogance is just as bad right?

Thank you.

I think Europe is becoming an enemy of the US. Why? Their press. Their news. I've seen european newspapers talking about how the US was humbled by a simple storm, as if the deadly European heatwaves never happened. They think all Americans are Bush-hugging racist red-neck morons all because the choices in the leection were all lousy. I wouldn't be surprised if most Europeans are burning American flags right now based off of what they basicly hear about the US. I used to think that the only European nation that was basicly anti-US was France. I just never saw European press then. If the Europeans don't like this opinion, do something about it. Boycotts. More newspapers. Just no more stereotypical gloating. Also, half the Americans who could afford to go to Europe were our stupid rich snobs. I also doubt most Europeans truly know any Americans. Oh well. It's not like the US depends on European support, other than good ole UK. I mean, the US has had mostly good relations with the UK. We quickly went from waging a full-scale war to friendly relations to another full-scale war to friendly relations again. The reason the US didn't help the French revolution was because we were worried about losing Brittian's friendship. The Americans kept good care of Brittish POW's, even though the British began using cruelty to get aMericans to help them fight the Americans. Plus, as long as there are Europeans actually thinking that the US never helped them at all, Americans will use the WWII excuse to prove the absolute wrong.
My god... What kind of newspapers did you read!? The Racist Daily? I've never seen a single newspaper or TV-station say that "he US was humbled by a simple storm", I've only heard "it is an extreme tragedy, if you want to help, the Red Cross will accept your money at..." And I highly doubt a couple of hundred million people are currently burning american flags. That's just illogical, not to say stupid.
And I've never met a frenchman who seemed negative of the US, only americans negative of France.
And last, the classic WWII argument. The russians, brits and the french resistance would've beaten/stopped Germany either way. I'm not saying the US did nothing, but could people PLEASE stop using that argument? I've never seen a swede saying that the german protestants should be thankful for our help in the thirty years' war, never even a mention of it or Gustavus Adolphus, rarely anyone pointing out the french help in the rebellion of the US or anything else like that. If the french started saying that every time they had the slightest reason, would you like it? Yes, it's been a long time, but so what? It was still a fairly important turn in american history, wasn't it?

You don't say where you're from, and I can't say I blame you. What, pray tell, would you like to see happen? You're obviously capable of throwing stones, but offer nothing in the way of solutions.

I'm from the UK.

You're a Vietnam Vet? You don't say what you did, and I can't say I blame you.

I would like to see a total rethink of US Foreign Policy. It would solve quite alot of the troubles in this world, starving Islamic militants of a 'cause' to hold on to.

There. That's my solution, and indeed I am capable of throwing stones, but it is a damn sight better than throwing missiles and bombs that kill millions.

Argh! I can't seem to be able to choose between I'm an American and No (I wouldn't consider the alliance between the US and Germany as "strong")

You know, replacing American Arrogance with European Arrogance is just as bad right?

nope I'm stating a fact that the war was won now if I was to say "we could of won the post war" that would of been arrogant

I've never seen a swede saying that the german protestants should be thankful for our help in the thirty years' war, never even a mention of it or Gustavus Adolphus, rarely anyone pointing out the french help in the rebellion of the US or anything else like that.Well, considering that the war consisted of Swedish, French, and German mercenaries raping, pillaging and murdering, I would be surprised if anyone thanked a party of the 30 years war for anything. ;)

Ireland, my country, has always been a strong ally of the USA, and vice versa. Hell, you should see how many American products are co-produced in Ireland, there's a massive list of them. Not to mention, diplomatic, tourism and military agreements. I would say that Ireland, the UK and Italy are the USA's strongest ally's in Europe.

@ Unified Sith:

You say that after WW2 Britain could have, potentially, beaten America. Well, considering Britain was economically exhausted after WW2 and needed billions of US Dollars under the Marhsall Plan to rebuild, i doubt your theory holds any creedence, and is inherent of British bullishness.

Britain was a great power, but that ended on VJ day. You lost all your empire. Heck, you lost North America in 1776 and then we, the Irish, kicked your ass in the Revolutionary War (Anglo-Irish War of the early 1920s). You couldn't beat a band of poorly armed guerrillas in the late 1700s and you couldn't beat them in the early 1920s either.

Britain has always had these delusions of grandeur, but you are really three separate cultural entities, Welsh, Scottish and English. You fought the piece out for hundreds of years and then you put your foot in it by invading my country, and then let my ancestors kick your ass for a few hundred more years, until you finally gave up.

Britain has also not been the best of allies to the USA, you sort of invaded them in 1812, and they kicked your ass again. Then in the 20th Century they have to give you arms for WW1 and WW2, and then you insult them by not going to Vietnam, Australia, South Korea and Thailand all helped, where were the Tommies? Oh yeah, Borneo...scaaary! You also failed to help in Grenada in 83 and in Panama from 89-96. Despite the fact that without US Intelligence assets during the Falklands you would certainly, as British Historians actually admit, not have won, at least not with the forces you sent at that point.

mm lets see AWI in fact was gonig Britians way mostly until the European Nations stuck thier nose in

Actually the war 1812 was more than lickley a Draw as no one gained any Territory

How many times did Britain or the former Indepent Nations kick the ass of the Irish over the years ooh yet you couldnt even beat Cromwell

and that qoute about Borneo is an Insult to many British Soliders not matter their Nationality who served out there
can I ask Where ooh great Ireland was During WWII if you want ot go about former Conflicts

JUst have to add part from thoose that had gone to join up RN, RAF and the Army

150 posts in a discussion who got the biggest...

Sheesh, people, grow up.

To the Americans: yes indeed, you got the biggest
To the Europeans: theirs is bigger, but your technique is more sophisticated
To the rest of the world: don't worry, size don't matter
Balloons and cookies to you!! :D

This thread has degenerated into something like that one room at the family reunion where the old duffers and the little kids sit around and argue The Big One -- WW2. I think I'll go play cards in the kitchen.

I'm from the UK.

You're a Vietnam Vet? You don't say what you did, and I can't say I blame you.

I would like to see a total rethink of US Foreign Policy. It would solve quite alot of the troubles in this world, starving Islamic militants of a 'cause' to hold on to.

There. That's my solution, and indeed I am capable of throwing stones, but it is a damn sight better than throwing missiles and bombs that kill millions.
If you had been here a bit longer, you might have read one of the threads where I talked about what I did. But then, that was just an attempt to "bite back," yes? :)

Without a serious political upheaval within the US, a "total rethink of US Foreign Policy" is most unlikely. And simply stating that we should "rethink" our foreign policy without specifing what the outcomes should be is interesting but has no depth.

The US is not going to rethink its foreign policy.

Why? Because our foreign policy is "do what's best for America."

Is that selfish? Sure. But the problem is that the US is damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we take an active role in the international community we're branded as Imperialists. If we step back we're branded as Isolationists or accused of parochialism.

If we're going to get bitched at either way, then we might as well just do what is in our country's best interests and to hell with the opinions of people whose praise we would not have garnered in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love most Europeans (Scandinavians, Irish, British and Scottish in particular). I just think that people outside America look for America's weaknesses without giving us our due for our strengths.

If anything WW2 saved the US as opposed to the other way round - it got them out of a depression caused by stupid ass right wing policies.

I really don't understand people who claim Britain should be grateful for having America to sell supplies to help defend their allies. If you buy a medicine from a friend at a local pharmacy that happens to save their life, do both you and your friend have a duty to thank them? Hell no - they made moeny out of it so why thank at all?

Face the facts - America can't claim both credit for 'saving sub human limey asses, hur hur' AND demand repayments on the arms they used - you either behaved as an honorable ally and gave help, not loaned it, or you just did as any neutral coutnry would do and saw a way of not getting involved and helping yourself. There's nothing wrong with the latter - but don't try to claim the moral high ground for giving out a loan.

Ok so I am an American, and I can not stand all those idiots in Europe (Mainly France). I don't understand why they all hate us. How may billions of dollars does this country just had out to help third world countries out. You know what, lets just stop all that aid, screw them, they hate us fine, then you know what, we are keeping all that money There are starving people in this country who need it more. AND France :sniper: If it were not for this country, all of you would be goose stepping around your precious Paris!!! We bailed you out twice, how dare you forget the thousands of young men who stormed your beaches to free you!! It could have taken place, 100, a 1,000 years ago, it wouldn't matter, you OWE us!! Of course that is just my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love most Europeans (Scandinavians, Irish, British and Scottish in particular). I just think that people outside America look for America's weaknesses without giving us our due for our strengths.

We don't think it's necessary, really, as you seem to be doing that yourself most of the time ;)

The US is not going to rethink its foreign policy.

Why? Because our foreign policy is "do what's best for America."No it isn't. It's "do what seems best in the short run".

Ok so I am an American, and I can not stand all those idiots in Europe (Mainly France). I don't understand why they all hate us. How may billions of dollars does this country just had out to help third world countries out. You know what, lets just stop all that aid, screw them, they hate us fine, then you know what, we are keeping all that money There are starving people in this country who need it more. AND France :sniper: If it were not for this country, all of you would be goose stepping around your precious Paris!!! We bailed you out twice, how dare you forget the thousands of young men who stormed your beaches to free you!! It could have taken place, 100, a 1,000 years ago, it wouldn't matter, you OWE us!! Of course that is just my opinion.Hm... none of this is really constructive.
You can't understand why people hate us? Take a couple world history lessons. Chile and Greece, for instance, hate us for suporting dictatorships and toppling elected governments. And there's much more.
You claim that America gives out billions of dollars in aid. America gives a lot less than it can afford when compared to everyone else.
As for the US being the sole reason that France was liberated, you're wrong. The British, Polish, French, Canadians were part of D-Day, and that's ignoring the fact that the Germans would have had a lot more troops in the area if it weren't for the Greeks, Yugoslavs, and Russians. And that's not mentioning everyone else. And don't think American troops had that much of an impact in WWI. It was American produced goods that were sold for profit that made the difference.
And what about the Americans owing the French for the revolution? It's just as plausible to claim that as it is to claim that the French owe for WWII (especially if you don't limit the time frame).

I saw a recent poll that has got me thinking. 74% of Americans beleive Britain is a strong ally of the U.S. But other than that, NO other country scored above 50%! (even Canada)
Would you happen to have a link to the poll that you referenced? I would find it difficult to make an informed response without first seeing the data.

Alll right, let's see if we can inject some sense into this.

Summary of points:

1) Europeans are sick to death of Americans claiming credit for all that is green and good on this earth. This is because these claims are unjustified. Conclusion: Those 'Merkins who like to claim that "Britain would be a Nazi colony but for us" and so forth should shut up, grow up, and learn about the immense complexity of WWI and WWII.

2) Americans are sick to death of Europeans claiming credit for any sort of civilisation in the world, and especially in the USA. This is because these claims are unjustified. Those Europeans who like to claim that "America is a den of fat, inbred halfwits with no talent at all and an unhealthy penchant for waving their flag" (a claim which I myself have made, more in jest than in anger if one discounts my "anti-US angsty teen" phase) should shut up and learn that there are many perfectly decent, ordinary yanks with whom one can have a perfectly good discussion.

3) Europeans are sick to death of Americans claiming that they could get along without anyone else. This is because such claims are patently false; one makes money via exports, after all, and you do like to have other people around to help you in your fights. Those Americans who like to claim that the USA is invincible should shut up and take a look at their own history and flaws.

4) Americans are sick to death of Europeans claiming the exact opposite of the above, i.e. that the USA is a useless, pathetic nation, reliant upon everyone else for anything and incapable of acting on its own. Again, this is false, and those who claim it should really just shut up and learn to express a sensible idea in an articulate fashion.

5) Both sides are occasionally right, sometimes wrong, and mostly somewhere in the middle and incapable of admitting it.

Conclusion: Unless all participants become monks and manage to curb their own various pride, this "discussion" isn't going anywhere.

Right, I'm done.

No it isn't. It's "do what seems best in the short run".

No arguments about the current administration.

As far as past administrations go, they've done what they thought was best for America at the time. I don't think any student of American history (whether American or not) will ever claim that American history is spotless or universally well-intentioned.

However, I don't see enough Europeans who make the distinction between the American government and the American people. The former are as shady or pure as any other politicians throughout history. The latter are a very warm, optimistic, passionate, mildly parochial, occasionally arrogant, freedom loving people.

... make the distinction between the American government and the American people. The former are as shady or pure as any other politicians throughout history. The latter are a very warm, optimistic, passionate, mildly parochial, occasionally arrogant, freedom loving people.
Thank you!

*** Dumps a truckload of cookies on your doorstep! ***

Every sensible person in Scotland despises the USA and its allies within the far right UK government of Tony Blair.

Every sensible person in Scotland despises the USA and its allies within the far right UK government of Tony Blair.
Not a very kind thing to say about your own Countrymen. :(

I'm going to keep my talk on popular opinion. Politics alone have been beaten to death enough.

I don't think that it is necessarily a bad thing that many nations don't see us as friendly towards them. I mean, who honestly cares about the opinions of 80% of Europe nowadays. And I'm being serious - the average American has no need to even concern himself with, say, Spain. Even France and Germany fall into these categories. Lets face it, all three maintain interests solely for the sake of old foriegn language programs that focus entirely on European languages. Chances are far greater in the world that you will meet a Chinese person than a native Frenchman or German combined. Chances are far greater in the US that you will meet a Chinese person than a native Frenchman or German combined...

I certainly hope the Brits percieve us as friendly, because it is almost impossible to hear criticism of Britons. I wouldn't classify American opinion of Israel as one of overwhelming adoration, but most Americans from my experience sympathize next most heavily with the Israeli people - especially compared to the sentiments we hear ringing out in Europe. After these two, there's east Asia. East Asian culture is spreading very rapidly, compared to perhaps two decades ago when most Americans couldn't have cared in the least. Then there's also the fact that many are immigrants who come over and within a relatively short time are really quite prosperous - the fulfillment of that proverbial "American Dream". My dad and a quite few other people I've noticed, who until just a few years ago had no interaction with Asians at all, have grown very much so to have a great respect for them. So I'd say that with the spread of East Asian culture and their tendencies to succeed very quickly in America, Asians command significant respect.

Every sensible person in Scotland despises the USA and its allies within the far right UK government of Tony Blair.

Aww, now you are going to create negative sentiment for my ancestry. Shame on you for speaking on their behalf. Good thing they left before the country went downhill ;)

I saw a recent poll that has got me thinking. 74% of Americans beleive Britain is a strong ally of the U.S. But other than that, NO other country scored above 50%! (even Canada)


There is a third posibility, maybe many of us in America have forgotten what it means to be a strong ally. An strong ally is not someone who does your beck and call every moment, that is a yes-man. A strong ally is someone who has your back when something bad happens. Looking at the international response after 9-11, and all the help we had in Afghanistan, I think much of the world can be considered strong allies of us. Finally, a strong ally can disagree with you without turning it into personal attach (Freedom Fries anyone?). I think the much of the world loves America and what it stands for, but might not agree with how we are acting right now.

There is a third posibility, maybe many of us in America have forgotten what it means to be a strong ally. An strong ally is not someone who does your beck and call every moment, that is a yes-man. A strong ally is someone who has your back when something bad happens. Looking at the international response after 9-11, and all the help we had in Afghanistan, I think much of the world can be considered strong allies of us. Finally, a strong ally can disagree with you without turning it into personal attach (Freedom Fries anyone?). I think the much of the world loves America and what it stands for, but might not agree with how we are acting right now.
In my humble opinion, I think that MOST Europeans are our allies, but I certainly wouldn't say that about all of them! (Freedom Fries anyone)

The problem with many (though certainly not all) Americans is that they don't seem to think that anywhere outside the US as really real, but rather amusement parks. Don't work yourselves up over this, because in this globallized world, no one can be isolated for much longer. But I believe that this is the root of the lack of connections. Besides, the average American does not know much about US foreign policy, though that is changing. The Anglo-American alliance is recognized probably because of its longevity, strenght, and its prominence.

The USA being a predominantly European origin nation at the end of World War II, even more so than now. Could have taken over Western Europe and made them US States and they did not do so, naturally that would have let to a war with Russia at the time, but the USA could have won that war.

Have the Europeans forgotten who they had to turn too for help during World War II?

Have the European nations forgotten the rebuilding of Europe after World War II?

first of all, no we couldn't have won a war with russia, both sides would've pressed the button and the world would be in nuclear winter, not a good thing

second, europe remembers but last time I checked, the people who rebuilt europe are now either dead or retired, the ones who run this country now had nothing to do with that, and the ones who run europe right now arn't those who remember either, those people are also old or dead.

I've always thought that the people should have a national plebiscite where they decide who, out of everyone in the entire Country, should lead us, and that those selected should be frakkin' DRAFTED for the term of office ... no choice, you WILL serve! :D


Good Lord, Eutrusca! Two clever things you've said in the same week? That's actually a good idea. Stop it, you're scaring me. :D

The US had atomic weapons in 1945, the Soviet Union didn't get them until 1949. If America had listened to some of the hawks at the time we could have defeated the Soviets without any chance of their answering our attack. MacArthur wanted to nuke China at the end of WW2 and that was part of the reason he hd command taken from him.

The Western world will back up the US in most decisions because the world is run by the rich. Wealthy Europeans don't want to share their wealth any more than the US does, why would rich, comfortable people revolt? Always look for the money to answer your questions about policy. Money talks, bullshit walks.

So am I and I say No.

You could say no as long as you like, but there is no denying the fact Britain is America's strongest ally

the Anzac nations are better allies.

They'd also be completely useless to us in any serious war.

We will in Dec next year pay the last of the money we were asked to pay for our allies help.

We were not asked, they offered, we said yes, we needed the money, without it our success later in the war might be slightly different, we gained from it, and so did america.

We had rations before we had debts to america, and all the other factors anyone seems to mention the debt did to us, and since we've payed it over such a long period, it's not really had much of an effect as people like to make out.



As for all the americans claiming "they saved our asses" in WW2

You didn't, not single handly, without every ally country working together we would of lost, the victory couldn't have been managed by no single country,

But, since you seem to like to think America did everything in WW2, you only stepped in as the war was coming to an end, germany were allready weakening to russia, they lost over 20million people to the germans, nearly 30million, sure some of that was partially down to poor training, compare that to 300,000, your sacrifice for "saving our asses" doesn't seem that signifcant now does it?


I'm not saying we could of won without USA, they were a great help, but they did less fighting, lost less men, less bombings, less everything, so next time you think "you saved our asses", look at what we had to do before you conviniently entered the war near the end, only when you were attacked, and you saw the opportunity for financial gains.



If i offended anybody with this post, i apologise, that was not my intention.


And if it seems like a rip at America, it's not, its a rip at some of the morons who happen to be American, every country has fools like these, i love America and if i HAD to leave Britain and live somewhere else, it would be America.

The Western world will back up the US in most decisions because the world is run by the rich. Wealthy Europeans don't want to share their wealth any more than the US does, why would rich, comfortable people revolt? Always look for the money to answer your questions about policy. Money talks, bullshit walks.Hm? Back up as in oppose, just like the Iraq war? :p
Anyway, most rich Europeans will move to Switzerland and Monaco, both of whom are notoriously neutral.

I suppose. As long as we all live with a suspicion and fear of our allies,enemys,neighbours or whatever nations motives and a constent threat of what crazy path your government and their benefactors may take you next week... But what can any of you really do to cease this age of hippocracy? Run for governer of Calfornia? Marry a Royal? Inherit Esso/Exxon? (well just maybe)Strap a bomb to your n*ts?Appear on the latest episode of "Im a celebrity,dont tell the army recruiting officer Im hidden under the stairs"? Its all just playing into the hands of the twisted nutters who make the rules and regularly break them hence causing a great deal of other humans misery,poverty and a generally bad standard of life.

Im not sure what could be done.Its all pretty harsh when you take a miniute to think about it. It seems most countries have an iron grip on what their citizens should/should not believe.I think a great apathy rests on our shoulders as conserning humanity as a whole.
Any suggestions?

Actually I didn't want to post anything in the general forum anymore , but anyway:
Those Americans who think that we Europeans hate you, please take a look at the pictures and honestly tell me that those people hate you.

McD Germany (http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~kahogan/Germany/rothenburg-mcdonalds.jpg) McD France (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/01/24/mcdonalds.france.asterix/story.mcdonalds.jpg) McD France (http://nancymulligan.tripod.com/france/mcdonalds.jpg) Mc D Italy (http://www.dorje.com/~alanf/afimages/travel/italy04/109-Rome29.jpg)
Burger King Germany (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.racquelroberts.com/images/photos/main/8878235277burger_king.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.racquelroberts.com/photoThe_Lion_King__Hamburg__Germany8878235277.html&h=394&w=525&sz=87&tbnid=DlSuXoDAXMAJ:&tbnh=96&tbnw=129&hl=de&start=17&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522burger%2Bking%2522%2Bgermany%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)
Football (http://www.remscheid-amboss.de/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=9) Football (http://www.remscheid-amboss.de/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=11) Football (http://www.remscheid-amboss.de/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=10&pos=3)

And I can even assure you that these (http://www.lenk.lu/images/sujet/Friedensdemo.jpg) people (http://www.berlin-motive.de/berlin/Veranstaltungen/Friedensdemo/Demo03/500/friedensdemo23.jpg) don't hate you. They just differ on certain political issues.

Don't worry all. Things will get better. We can't find anyone more devisive than George Bush, except maybe Cheney, and he isn't running.
I would like to personally extend my hand to ALL Europeans and say "hey, we love you guys!"

Quote:
the Anzac nations are better allies.



They'd also be completely useless to us in any serious war.

As an Australian, who lost family in WWII, and who has acquaintances who have served in Iraq, I take serious offence to the above. I tend to hope that the many, many Australian and New Zealand lives lost in WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam were not in vain, and were respected as much as any other nations' sacrifices. Furthermore, it is Australian troops who freed East Timor, who went to the Solomons, Papua New Guinea, and who are now rebuilding many of the nations affected by the tsunami. And I don't believe we're asking any of them to pay us back for the help, even though at the moment we could really use the money.

Also, our SAS is the best in the world.

[QUOTE=Saint Jade] Furthermore, it is Australian troops who freed East Timor, who went to the Solomons, Papua New Guinea, and who are now rebuilding many of the nations affected by the tsunami. And I don't believe we're asking any of them to pay us back for the help, even though at the moment we could really use the money./QUOTE]

Freed east timor? lol.

Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe.I dont think so...

Most US voters would eventually figure that attaking Europe would mean European nukes destroying US cities...

Don't worry all. Things will get better. We can't find anyone more devisive than George Bush, except maybe Cheney, and he isn't running.
I would like to personally extend my hand to ALL Europeans and say "hey, we love you guys!"
Isn't that going just a bit far with all this? I mean, I kinda-sorta-sometimes like Europeans, but "love" them? Hmmm. ;)

Good Lord, Eutrusca! Two clever things you've said in the same week? That's actually a good idea. Stop it, you're scaring me. :D
I can actually be quite creative and charming ... when I'm not feeling the need to conduct "preemptive strikes" and lob logic-bombs! :D

That idea was one I first had several years ago and incorporated into the structure of The New Republic of Eutrusca. :)

Sorry if I'm scaring you, but even preemptive strikes and logic-bombs lose their appeal at times. :D

I always found this one extremely humerous.. because as we are called racists... racisim exists in far greater, more intense levels in Europe... then it does in the United States. A reality most evident by levels in hate crimes, in intolerance, and political movments in some cases even gaining power in the government (austria)

Very humerous indeed

*laughs while reading an article about the origins of the Third Reich.*

Don't worry all. Things will get better. We can't find anyone more devisive than George Bush, except maybe Cheney, and he isn't running.
I would like to personally extend my hand to ALL Europeans and say "hey, we love you guys!"

Hey what about us British people? Don't you love us too? :D

You could say no as long as you like, but there is no denying the fact Britain is America's strongest ally



They'd also be completely useless to us in any serious war.



We were not asked, they offered, we said yes, we needed the money, without it our success later in the war might be slightly different, we gained from it, and so did america.

We had rations before we had debts to america, and all the other factors anyone seems to mention the debt did to us, and since we've payed it over such a long period, it's not really had much of an effect as people like to make out.



As for all the americans claiming "they saved our asses" in WW2

You didn't, not single handly, without every ally country working together we would of lost, the victory couldn't have been managed by no single country,

But, since you seem to like to think America did everything in WW2, you only stepped in as the war was coming to an end, germany were allready weakening to russia, they lost over 20million people to the germans, nearly 30million, sure some of that was partially down to poor training, compare that to 300,000, your sacrifice for "saving our asses" doesn't seem that signifcant now does it?


I'm not saying we could of won without USA, they were a great help, but they did less fighting, lost less men, less bombings, less everything, so next time you think "you saved our asses", look at what we had to do before you conviniently entered the war near the end, only when you were attacked, and you saw the opportunity for financial gains.



If i offended anybody with this post, i apologise, that was not my intention.


And if it seems like a rip at America, it's not, its a rip at some of the morons who happen to be American, every country has fools like these, i love America and if i HAD to leave Britain and live somewhere else, it would be America.

Ok, I'm not having a go at you, or attacking/flaming, or the like; but I'd like to point something out.

When Americans say (or act like, whatever) "we saved your asses in WW2," we don't mean "we saved your asses ALONE in WW2."

And saying the US came in at the end of the war isn't very.... smart... IMO.

Edit: And let me add, I am glad you said "i'm not saying we could have won without America...", I've seen some people, mostly Europeans with their revisionist history classes, who said that the Soviets could have defeated Hitler alone...

As the average aussie I dont consider this country to be an ally of the US, our government rarely represents us accurately when it comes to foreign policy (since local matters here seem to take precedent), and they're really the only ones who maintain this false joke of an alliance. Nothing against the american people, I just dont like to see this country dealing closely with something like the Bush administration.

our government rarely represents us accurately when it comes to foreign policy

Same here.

--Proud American.

Same here.

--Proud American.
You don't represent us accurately when it comes to foreign policy either??? :eek:

The point I was trying to carry across is that foreign policy in Australia cant be an important factor as this country has no strong military reach beyond the South East Asian region. Yes our military is well equiped and modernized, yes it can inforce the independence of a country (East Timor), but this country has a population of around 20million, which is probably less than the chinese army alone.

The USA on the other hand still manages to hold on to its superpower status despite its recent economic weakness, so I would figure that when an American voted, foreign policy would be a very important block of his/her vote. If memory serves correctly, 51% of Americans voted for Bush, thus accepting his line of foreign policy.

The point I was trying to carry across is that foreign policy in Australia cant be an important factor as this country has no strong military reach beyond the South East Asian region. Yes our military is well equiped and modernized, yes it can inforce the independence of a country (East Timor), but this country has a population of around 20million, which is probably less than the chinese army alone.

The USA on the other hand still manages to hold on to its superpower status despite its recent economic weakness, so I would figure that when an American voted, foreign policy would be a very important block of his/her vote. If memory serves correctly, 51% of Americans voted for Bush, thus accepting his line of foreign policy.

How many people support him now?

40%?

45%?

Anyway, Australia is going to be one of our largest allies before long, right behind Japan and Britian, maybe more than Britain, because nothing happens in Europe now. China is who we worry about.

As an American, I feel obliged to use this picture:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/DrkHelmet/fedup9wr.jpg


Too true!

My contry has no military alliances and that's how I like it, so the answer is no.
If I was asked would they be a strong ally? I'd answer yes, they'd too strong we'd become their bitches.

I went to Europe in '04 for Christmas. THAT PLACE IS AWESOME. But when I saw Germany and France, I saw the destrucion and how behind(in technology terms) they were. And that was in Paris and an awesome German city that was under siege(I think). So did they rebuild it? No. We did. They should be happy. I say let them be attacked for a while, then swoop in and save the...year, I guess. I don't want to be cruel but they have said bad and mean things about for decades. And I heard my mom say that on European news channels, they have said the following: "And those stupid Americans let that hurricane attack them! And what do they do? NOTHING!"
That angers me.

:headbang: so :headbang: frus :headbang: strae :headbang: ted! :headbang:

How many people support him now?

40%?

45%?

Anyway, Australia is going to be one of our largest allies before long, right behind Japan and Britian, maybe more than Britain, because nothing happens in Europe now. China is who we worry about.

It doesent matter who supports him now, he's still got 3 years in office, which is 3 years too many, not to mention the other 5 years the 50% of those who dindnt vote for him were trying to save the world from George Bush.

As for closer allies, thats pretty doubtful considering the Labour Party looks like a good chance in the next elections, and they're not overly friendly when it comes to the US.

As for China I couldn't agree more, the faster people see past the "good trading partner" rhetoric for what China really is, a repressive dictatorial communist state, the better. Just becuase our countries arent allies does not mean we cant work together on cases like China.

My contry has no military alliances and that's how I like it, so the answer is no.
If I was asked would they be a strong ally? I'd answer yes, they'd too strong we'd become their bitches.

Yes, but you can really only do that because of where you are geographically. It's like switzerland.

Had your country been located in a different part of the world, it may well of had to form strong alliances with a much larger power(s).

I went to Europe in '04 for Christmas. THAT PLACE IS AWESOME. But when I saw Germany and France, I saw the destrucion and how behind(in technology terms) they were. And that was in Paris and an awesome German city that was under siege(I think). So did they rebuild it? No. We did. They should be happy. I say let them be attacked for a while, then swoop in and save the...year, I guess. I don't want to be cruel but they have said bad and mean things about for decades. And I heard my mom say that on European news channels, they have said the following: "And those stupid Americans let that hurricane attack them! And what do they do? NOTHING!"
That angers me.

:headbang: so :headbang: frus :headbang: strae :headbang: ted! :headbang:

1. All the money outlayed by the USA in the marshall plan (post WWII Europe reconstruction) was repaid, that money was no gift, it was a low interest rebuilding loan.

2. I dont know why you say Europe is behind technologically, Frankfurt, Stockholm, Zurich and a host of other European cities appered to me far more advanced technology wise than even your technology hub (seattle). 10/100 mbit internet in every house anyone?

3. I dont know whether your mom is lying or accidently caught the nazi channel by mistake, but the EU as well as the member states seperately pledged and delivered all the aid for Hurricane Katrina as per request of the United States Government.

link (http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/News/200509/23fb62d5-437c-4f2e-b0da-fa54776a0738.htm)

Isn't that going just a bit far with all this? I mean, I kinda-sorta-sometimes like Europeans, but "love" them? Hmmm. ;)
Hey, we all bleed red. We all cry when our hearts are broken. I might as well start spreadin the love. BUT I have two points I will not cave on. 1)Anyone threatans America, We attack them. 2) I reserve the right to pick on France, just because it's fun. :p

Just tired of the chest thumping. For some reason, an abysmal number of my fellow Americans feel that acting like the Governator is the best image to send to the rest of the world. Unfortunately, that disgusts the rest of the world.

Some reason = 9/11

How soon they forget...

Hey what about us British people? Don't you love us too? :D
British people freakin ROCK! Of course I love you guys too!

2. I dont know why you say Europe is behind technologically, Frankfurt, Stockholm, Zurich and a host of other European cities appered to me far more advanced technology wise than even your technology hub (seattle). 10/100 mbit internet in every house anyone?

link (http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/News/200509/23fb62d5-437c-4f2e-b0da-fa54776a0738.htm)
What the fuck have you been smoking? Seattle is our technology hub? WHAT!? And while were at it, no other country has as many broadband internet connections as America.

What the fuck have you been smoking? Seattle is our technology hub? WHAT!? And while were at it, no other country has as many broadband internet connections as America.

Seattle is the location of Microsoft and Amazon among others, only place that could possibly trump that in the US is Silicon Valley ...

As for broadband, the USA is 15th, behind Denmark and Sweden among others

link (http://isen.com/blog/broadband-per-capita.jpg)

Seattle is the location of Microsoft and Amazon among others, only place that could possibly trump that in the US is Silicon Valley ...

As for broadband, the USA is 15th, behind Denmark and Sweden among others

link (http://isen.com/blog/broadband-per-capita.jpg)
I said that we have more connectons, not more connections per capita. And not that one is better than the other, but if your gonna quote me , get it right. Don't play the apples and oranges game.

I said that we have more connectons, not more connections per capita. And not that one is better than the other, but if your gonna quote me , get it right. Don't play the apples and oranges game.

Actualy per capita is the only that should be counted, for reasons obvious. Even after this Korea, Japan among others still overbear the USA on the total number of broadband connections.

Actualy per capita is the only that should be counted, for reasons obvious. Even after this Korea, Japan among others still overbear the USA on the total number of broadband connections.
"Only that should be counted"? Why? And do you have a source for totals? I'm having trouble locating one.

Now tell me this. Why should we even care whats best for anyone but us? Apparently most of Europe hates America. My opinion is this.



This is why Europe hates America.

"Only that should be counted"? Why? And do you have a source for totals? I'm having trouble locating one.

There arent that many places in Japan or South Korea where theres no 10/100 port or t1/3 line your home. Think about it.

As an Australian, who lost family in WWII, and who has acquaintances who have served in Iraq, I take serious offence to the above.

I didn't mean to offend anyone with that comment, i apologise, although i never stated they were useless in WW2, they tried their best, but in any serious war today (Iraq not being one, Iraq is an invasion of a defenseless country, i'm not one of these "get out of iraq!!on2e" people by the way, i support the war, but you can't call it a serious war, and i'm not saying any soldiers effort in Iraq doesn't matter before you think i do) can you honestly say they're going to be more use than america?, or any other of our european allies for that matter.



Also, our SAS is the best in the world.


i'm not sure what relevance that has to allys or war, they're called in, in the most extreme, delicate, circumstances, that need to be dealt with by the best, they're not exactly going to be able to fight a super power alone ;)




When Americans say (or act like, whatever) "we saved your asses in WW2," we don't mean "we saved your asses ALONE in WW2."

Yeah, i wasn't having a dig at Americans, just the morons who happen to be American, and like to think America saved our asses single handedly ;)

I'm sure there is some British morons out there who think we won the war single handedly to



And saying the US came in at the end of the war isn't very.... smart... IMO.


True, they didn't enter the war near the end, time wise, but they didn't start fighting seriously against the germans in europe until 1942.


I welcome any constructive comments anyway, makes for a good conversation ;)

The SAS is british, so you being an australian you can't really say "our SAS"

And i'm not sure what relevance that has to allys or war, they're called in, in the most extreme, delicate, circumstances, that need to be dealt with by the best, they're not exactly going to be able to fight a super power alone ;)

The Australians also have an SAS, which shares a common heritage to the long range desert group with the British SAS. Further, both of them were deployed during the Malaya emergency where the concept of modern special forces was first developed. (And it's much better than the SEALs or Green Berets.)

The Australian millitary is good. It is just small, which is fair enough considering the number of people in the country. And even though it suffers a numerical disadvantage it is still probably better than some of those European allies.

The Australians also have an SAS, which shares a common heritage to the long range desert group with the British SAS.


I stand corrected then :D

The Australian millitary is good. It is just small

Yeah, they're efficient for their size, and would try their best

But i'm not sure why that guy thought they'd be a better ally to us than America, power wise anyway, a country that will spend more on defense than all other countrys in the world put together next year seems like quite a handy ally ;)

it is still probably better than some of those European allies.

They would be better than a lot of european nations, but most of them are not our allies, we're just obliged to defend them if they're attacked under EU laws

I trained with the Australian Marines (I think... it might have been their special forces). New Zealanders are generally easygoing but fight like hell when necessary. I also trained with the Scottish Black Watch, though that doesn't have a lot of bearing on why I'm making this post.

I'm biased in that I think the American military is the best, but I'd fight alongside those guys ANY time.

I make these observations because of the earlier comments regarding the relative worth of ANZAC forces in a war.

They may well be small, but they fight like hell. We don't want to disparage their worth.

He never said that. Although that was written into the Tora Tora Tora script. (great movie btw)
Yeah, they added that because they were afraid that Americans wouldnt like the movie.

"Col. Arthur Freemantle: You call yourselves Americans, but you're really just transplanted Englishmen. Look at your names: Lee, Hood, Longstreet, Jackson, Stuart...
Lieutenant General James Longstreet: My people were Dutch -
Col. Arthur Freemantle: And the same for your adversaries: Meade, Hooker, Hancock, and - shall I say - Lincoln! The same God, same language, same culture and history, same songs, stories, legends, myths - different dreams. Different dreams. So very sad. " not sure why just felt an urge to post the quote

They may well be small, but they fight like hell.

Oh yes, i don't deny them that, they've allways tried their hardest, which i've said about two or three times now ;)

I do not think my country's association with the US has brought it anything other than a poor alternative, as we're incapable of meeting EU standards (since this ammount to a functoinal economy and an important, citizen-motivated state-action, they should be our main concern). I believe that most of my fellow-Romanians do disagree with me, flatered as they are by such crap as Rumsfeld's idea of a shiny-new Europe, Eastern-led and American-influenced. It also reflects the go-getting, merciless, action-driven, sometimes-paranoid character in our society (most US alliance supporters also support the death penalty).

I think the world would be friendlier towards America if we got a really good president in office. Someone that the WHOLE country rallies around. When's the last time you saw an entirely blue or red map for an election? None of this well.... the candidates both suck, but this one matches my beliefs better... I guess.

Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe. That would make things worse, me thinks.


Have you ever heard of Ronald Reagan? You know the President that got 48 of 50 states. And do you by any chance know how the world responded to him? :sniper:

The world doesn't like American strength. They will settle for nothing less than American appeasment. Now, does Jimmy Carter ring a bell?

President Ronald Reagan won reelection winning 49 of the 50 states, with 58,80 percent of the vote to 40,60, Lost Walter Mondale's home state of Minnesota 49.5 0to 49.70,
lost the district of columbia 13.70 to 85,40.

I make this post in Honor of President Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan,
Viva President Ronald Reagan, who loved America his native land, and Nancy Reagan for they loved and love each other deeply.

Every sensible person in Scotland despises the USA and its allies within the far right UK government of Tony Blair.

hands the man a bottle of Jamesons and a trianload of cookies

President Ronald Reagan won reelection winning 49 of the 50 states, with 58,80 percent of the vote to 40,60, Lost Walter Mondale's home state of Minnesota 49.5 0to 49.70,
lost the district of columbia 13.70 to 85,40.

I make this post in Honor of President Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan,
Viva President Ronald Reagan, who loved America his native land, and Nancy Reagan for they loved and love each other deeply.

Ya basta mi amigo, el Ronald Reagan was reelected in 49 out of fifty states because the of his western career:P
Plus he managed to help Frod and Chevy employ lots of cheap labour in Mahico, at the expense of a great part of Detroit and almost the whole of Flint, MI

Vale el John Wayne es amorado para los Estados Unidos, pero he supports the NRA and in its anti-gun control lunacy. And uncontrolled guns have killed lots of gringos...(sadly)

I saw a recent poll that has got me thinking. 74% of Americans beleive Britain is a strong ally of the U.S. But other than that, NO other country scored above 50%! (even Canada)
What does this say about Americans? That at least half of them think that unless a country grants its sovereignty over to Washington DC, then they are not a sufficiently strong ally?

You wonder why Europeans view your country negatively?

Of course I suppose the whole country could rally around someone who supports American conquest of Europe. That would make things worse, me thinks.
With the tax increase that would require, I doubt it would be so popular!

I always found this one extremely humerous.. because as we are called racists... racisim exists in far greater, more intense levels in Europe... then it does in the United States. A reality most evident by levels in hate crimes, in intolerance, and political movments in some cases even gaining power in the government (austria)

Very humerous indeed
I agree. Most of the criticisms levelled at Americans by Europeans are true to an extent. But the "racist" claim is a case of us attacking the speck in your eye before taking the log out of ours!

No, not kinda like you with your 50 states. You have 50 states that have been one nation for much of their history.
Europe has 25 nations who had been at each others' throats for much of their history.
Don't be so EU-centric! Europe has 45 nations!

I strongly suspect that most Europeans and others would strongly moderate their speech if the US would work harder at living up to the ideals we have always espoused. Just one old soldier's perception.
Yeah, for a start, normalise Guantanamo Bay prison camp!

I of course formed opinions on other nations during my travels...the Brits I don't like...why? Because they just don't get FREEDOM and what it means...if they did they'd be out of Northern Ireland, you'd think 1776 and 1812 would've taught them by now.
I think that Britain does want to give up NI. They're only still there because the majority of people living there want to remain as a part of the UK.

I though the war of 1812 was really started because some In office wanted to sieze Canada while Britian had more pressing engagements with Napoleon
dint work though ended up in a draw for both side as they both ended up with the same terrioty as they had before it started

Every sensible person in Scotland despises the USA

The Scottish despise everything though ;) :p :D

Ok so I am an American, and I can not stand all those idiots in Europe (Mainly France). I don't understand why they all hate us. How may billions of dollars does this country just had out to help third world countries out. You know what, lets just stop all that aid, screw them, they hate us fine, then you know what, we are keeping all that money There are starving people in this country who need it more. AND France :sniper: If it were not for this country, all of you would be goose stepping around your precious Paris!!! We bailed you out twice, how dare you forget the thousands of young men who stormed your beaches to free you!! It could have taken place, 100, a 1,000 years ago, it wouldn't matter, you OWE us!! Of course that is just my opinion.
Ugh. Most cliched post ever.

In my humble opinion, I think that MOST Europeans are our allies, but I certainly wouldn't say that about all of them! (Freedom Fries anyone)
The western European nation of *Freedom* was not the only country to remain neutral on the Iraq war. Why are they worse than all the other European countries that had the same stance?

I though the war of 1812 was really started because some In office wanted to sieze Canada while Britian had more pressing engagements with Napoleon
dint work though ended up in a draw for both side as they both ended up with the same terrioty as they had before it startedAs far as I can remember, the spark that set it off was the seizure and checking of American shipping due to Britain's conflict with Napoleon and Napoleon's Continental System. Not that any of that got addressed in the peace treaty...

When someone fills their post with ignorance and bigotry towards a class of people that I feel I relate to, on top of all of the childish name calling, I choose not to respond. Take it any way you want to, (CENSORED) :upyours:

Now whos being the hypocrit?

How many people support him now?

40%?

45%?

Anyway, Australia is going to be one of our largest allies before long, right behind Japan and Britian, maybe more than Britain, because nothing happens in Europe now. China is who we worry about.

After the way Britian has been treated by Bush in the past few years, you think Britian and the people of it are ally of 'Bush's America'?

Ugh. Most cliched post ever.

I agree.

What personally anoys me is the arrogance of some American's in thinking that they chose to get off their arses to fight the war that was sweaping most fo the globe. With the Japanese bombing of Pear Harbor, the war finally came to the beaches. Thats fair enough, thus America HAD to do something, thus joined the war.
Saving our arses? Thats something I dont fully agree with.

America helped with the final push in Europe, in which German soldiers started to be forced back because of the Allied Forces. However if I recall correctly it was down to the Russian weather which was one fo the biggest aids in ending the war, in which a large bulk of the Nati army sent to attack the Russian border got hit by snow and liturally froze to death, thus cutting reinforcements. It was at this point that those of Europe who had fought in Europe throughout the war were actually winning, though econimicly, each country was going down the shitter as all resources were poured into military might to finish off the Nati armies.

Thus, when the war was over, Europe came together [mainly France, Italy and Germany] and decided to trade resources to rebuild each of their broken nations. However, all of Europe needed helping out and each were looking to each other for help which was alright tight. America came along as offered to pay a large sum of money in exchange for a dablle in the business market [correct me if im wrong] originally it was refused out of principle but the offer eventually turned to an almost necessity for instant cash.
In the end, it suffered the least as it turned a blind eye and then bought out a shattered continent of countrys for econimic gain.

I studied this a few years ago now but if Im wrong please correct me someone. Also let it be known that, as a politics student, I dislike the American Government and its agenda's, not the people. Britian it has to be said, isnt that much better right now when its comming to civil and politics rights...

Originally Posted by Nalaraider
I of course formed opinions on other nations during my travels...the Brits I don't like...why? Because they just don't get FREEDOM and what it means...if they did they'd be out of Northern Ireland, you'd think 1776 and 1812 would've taught them by now.


I think that Britain does want to give up NI. They're only still there because the majority of people living there want to remain as a part of the UK.
------------------------------------

Britian, though econimicly wouldnt want to give up terratory [which country would?] hasnt yet because a lot of people whom wish to remain part fot he U.K. It's also tried hard to settle conflict through debate and talk, as well as disarm the IRA to try and prevent bombings/violent protest. Shit has, as it were, hit the fan and I dont think anyone will dispute that. But the fact that members of the Irish public wish to remain apart of the U.K. means that untill some kind of 'peace' has been settled in Northen Irland, the thought of allowing the counry to be a free country isnt going to cross Tony's mind.

You wan't to know my honest opinions? Alright, here we go.

The world should really just FUCK OFF. Its our Presidents, Our Goveners, not yours. We wan't whats best for US, the People, Europe can roll over and DIE, Its already on that path with that European Union bullshit. Bleh, Europe has had its ass saved by America and GB two times, And they still bitch about how ' fat, lazy, and warmongering ' we are.

You wan't to know my honest opinions? Alright, here we go.

The world should really just FUCK OFF. Its our Presidents, Our Goveners, not yours. We wan't whats best for US, the People, Europe can roll over and DIE, Its already on that path with that European Union bullshit. Bleh, Europe has had its ass saved by America and GB two times, And they still bitch about how ' fat, lazy, and warmongering ' we are.Maybe if the US was more isolationist and didn't involve itself in other countries left and right, that would actually be an acceptable opinion.

The world should really just FUCK OFF. Its our Presidents, Our Goveners, not yours. We wan't whats best for US, the People, Europe can roll over and DIE, Its already on that path with that European Union bullshit. Bleh, Europe has had its ass saved by America and GB two times, And they still bitch about how ' fat, lazy, and warmongering ' we are.
Interesting that, coming from a Spaniard... :D
And I didn't have my arse (it's "arse", not "ass") saved by either great power for freedom and imperialism...perhaps I might even be better off if Germany had won the war. Who knows?

Anyways, as for the topic:
America hasn't been sleeping for some time. Instead I now hear the "Wounded Giant" more often than the Sleeping one.
Germany and France didn't agree with the US on Iraq. That seems to be enough to ignore 60 years of friendship, and of help in Afghanistan. I don't think the US is an ally of my country, and so I don't think Germany is an ally of the US.

perhaps I might even be better off if Germany had won the war. Who knows?

Are you blonde with blue eyes? ;)



I didn't have my arse saved by either great power for freedom and imperialism

Well technically after the war, britain built your biggest industry for you, the motor industry, we built VW up, we helped build all the cars, we put in all the big orders, and all your motor industrys spawned from that ;)



And who else would of rebuilt your country when you had no money what so ever after you tried to take over the world? ;)

"I fear all we have done is to awake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve." Admiral Yamamoto, Commander of Japanese fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor, just after the attack.

I saw a recent poll that has got me thinking. 74% of Americans beleive Britain is a strong ally of the U.S. But other than that, NO other country scored above 50%! (even Canada)

Now lets figure out why. shall we? "American Arrogance" "American Imperialism" "Stupid cowboys". "Fat Americans" "Idiots" "Murderers" "Warmongers" "Bush is a moron" "They have no culture" " They're all rascists"

These are just a few of the things that Europeans are saying about America.

Now tell me this. Why should we even care whats best for anyone but us? Apparently most of Europe hates America. My opinion is this.

There are tough times coming in this world. It is my great fear that peace will not prevail without great amounts of violence. So what side of the "Sleeping Giant" does everyone want to be on? Because if you keep talking a bunch of shit about America, she may not be there for you when you fall of your big European horse.

~EDIT~ By the way, I am a lover of ALL people. I am a great admirer of Europe. My opinion is that you have to be in someones shoes to appreciate why they do what they do. I think American policy is severely misunderstood!

The problem appears when you think that Europe is LESS than the USA, which is wrong.

If you are really worried for your external image, take care of it. If not, don't be surprised when the people says that.

Are you blonde with blue eyes?
Indeed I am. Not that that would've mattered, a German Passport would've been enough (provided you're not Jewish or otherwise... :p )

Well technically after the war, britain built your biggest industry for you, the motor industry, we built VW up, we helped build all the cars, we put in all the big orders, and all your motor industrys spawned from that
Actually, you guys destroyed it all, it was going just fine before that. All you may have done is rebuild what you broke, and that's the least I would expect.
And don't discount the hard work done by 80million or so of us either.

And who else would of rebuilt your country when you had no money what so ever after you tried to take over the world?
Well, strictly speaking Britain declared war on us, not the other way around... :D

Actually, you guys destroyed it all, it was going just fine before that. All you may have done is rebuild what you broke, and that's the least I would expect.
And don't discount the hard work done by 80million or so of us either.

Just out of curiosity - I genuinely don't know - does that mean Germany paid for the damage done by the blitz and all other bombings of the UK?

Just out of curiosity - I genuinely don't know - does that mean Germany paid for the damage done by the blitz and all other bombings of the UK?

It was decided that economically crippling Germany (again) might be foolish after what happened in the inter-war years.

It also has to be said that a lot of the idea behind the Marshall Plan was to stop Europe looking East for a better deal - not that we aren't somewhat grateful for it all the same.
I'm always amused to find out that Britain got a much worse deal though! :mad:

Perhaps I need to confirm here that my point is merely this:

Don't be too quick to say "The US and the UK saved Europe. Again."

Because neither can you clearly say whether or not Europe may have been better off without a Cold War, nor can you assume that the Allies' motives were anything but selfish and egoistic.

And if you really want to get into a discussion about it, I suggest starting a specific thread for it.... ;)

Actually, you guys destroyed it all, it was going just fine before that


Well you shouldn't of been trying to take over the world ;)

All you may have done is rebuild what you broke

And developed new cars, better cars, gave you the biggest sales you'd had, and it just went up from there, or we could of just destroyed it like all other war factorys.

Pfft - stop whinging about the allies. The UK did what any good long time friend would do - slapped Germany about a bit to shake it out of a moment of insanity, should be grateful! ;)