NationStates Jolt Archive

Think about it.... If you're a good Christian, after you die you live forever. This means that your "life" began some few-odd decades ago and from that point in time it is eternal. Every wrong thing you've done, every mistake you have made, every hurt you've imposed upon others, everything you might dislike about yourself or others... all of it matters. You will be judged for all of it. There is no escaping that. Jesus pre-forgave your sins, but only if you truly try to not sin. But can you ever be sure that you are sin-free enough? Can you ever be sure that each and every wrong you did is forgiven? What if there's that one wrong you neglected to repent? What if there's one omission you made in confession? You will have to "live" with the moral consequences unto eternity.

I'm worried about people acting on the belief that dead babies go straight to heaven because they haven't had a chance to sin. Sure they lose say seventy or eighty years of mortal life, but in return they get a guarenteed eternity in heaven.

I'm worried about people acting on the belief that dead babies go straight to heaven because they haven't had a chance to sin. Sure they lose say seventy or eighty years of mortal life, but in return they get a guarenteed eternity in heaven.
How can you lose something you never had?

Religions like to keep their masses afraid.
And we all like a good horror show.

What's the point?

Think about it.... If you're a good Christian, after you die you live forever. This means that your "life" began some few-odd decades ago and from that point in time it is eternal. Every wrong thing you've done, every mistake you have made, every hurt you've imposed upon others, everything you might dislike about yourself or others... all of it matters. You will be judged for all of it. There is no escaping that. Jesus pre-forgave your sins, but only if you truly try to not sin. But can you ever be sure that you are sin-free enough? Can you ever be sure that each and every wrong you did is forgiven? What if there's that one wrong you neglected to repent? What if there's one omission you made in confession? You will have to "live" with the moral consequences unto eternity.

Except maybe Roman Catholics (just maybe), I do not know of any Christian religion that teaches what you just described (that you must repent for every little thing or else face consequences in heaven).

Your theology is frightening. :headbang:

Believe it or not, the point of a Christian life is not to stop sinning and be perfect. In fact, I'd say that the whole not sinning thing is rather low on God's priority list, comparitively. God desires a relationship, not a robot who picks up after themselves. He's looking for your heart, not how well you obey the rules. I can understand why people are afraid of Christianity, or hate it, because there are so many people out there who don't know what they believe and present this utilitarian "You sin YOU DIE!" mentality. Sure, yes, sin has eternal consequences (and temproal ones too), and if you make sin your master then you'll have to lie in that bed. But God's not standing there shaking his finger saying "You bad bad Christian, you messed up AGAIN. Well, I'll forgive you, this once. If you promise not to do it again." God doesn't want our self righteous smug Christianity. He's a God of love, a God of grace, a God of wrath, a God of justice, holy, righteous, pure, good, kind, merciful, compassionate. You can't view God from one angle, but understand that he acts with every facet of his being all the time.

The REASON we put off sin and attempt to be sinless isn't to gain God's favor - he's already given it to his children. It's to please and honor him because we love him and we know doing his will makes his heart sing. But don't be deceived...scriptures say God sings over us. He delights in us. It's unconditional. "I love you, no matter what, because you're my child and I made you." Period. Salvation by faith, not by works.

Secondly, the very idea that Christ's death was not sufficiant to cover our sins without our "help" is complete fantasy and not supported by one iota of Scripture.

Mmm, sorry. Ranting theologist here. If you're interested in discussing this in email, let me know.

-Pols

polson_007@yahoo.com

Your theology is frightening. :headbang:

Believe it or not, the point of a Christian life is not to stop sinning and be perfect. In fact, I'd say that the whole not sinning thing is rather low on God's priority list, comparitively. God desires a relationship, not a robot who picks up after themselves. He's looking for your heart, not how well you obey the rules. I can understand why people are afraid of Christianity, or hate it, because there are so many people out there who don't know what they believe and present this utilitarian "You sin YOU DIE!" mentality. Sure, yes, sin has eternal consequences (and temproal ones too), and if you make sin your master then you'll have to lie in that bed. But God's not standing there shaking his finger saying "You bad bad Christian, you messed up AGAIN. Well, I'll forgive you, this once. If you promise not to do it again." God doesn't want our self righteous smug Christianity. He's a God of love, a God of grace, a God of wrath, a God of justice, holy, righteous, pure, good, kind, merciful, compassionate. You can't view God from one angle, but understand that he acts with every facet of his being all the time.

The REASON we put off sin and attempt to be sinless isn't to gain God's favor - he's already given it to his children. It's to please and honor him because we love him and we know doing his will makes his heart sing. But don't be deceived...scriptures say God sings over us. He delights in us. It's unconditional. "I love you, no matter what, because you're my child and I made you." Period. Salvation by faith, not by works.

Secondly, the very idea that Christ's death was not sufficiant to cover our sins without our "help" is complete fantasy and not supported by one iota of Scripture.

Mmm, sorry. Ranting theologist here. If you're interested in discussing this in email, let me know.

-Pols

polson_007@yahoo.com
Cool! A first-poster in my thread....

If trying to not sin is not the point, then why did Jesus die?

My post has nothing to do with robots. Just people.

What's the difference between gaining someone's favour and pleasing them?

The REASON we put off sin and attempt to be sinless isn't to gain God's favor - he's already given it to his children. It's to please and honor him because we love him and we know doing his will makes his heart sing. But don't be deceived...scriptures say God sings over us. He delights in us. It's unconditional. "I love you, no matter what, because you're my child and I made you." Period. Salvation by faith, not by works.

That is possibly the nicest way I have ever seen anyone explain it.
*cookie*

religion first started out with multiple gods in the middle east.... blame the hebrews....dumb assimilation.... :headbang:

Cool! A first-poster in my thread....

If trying to not sin is not the point, then why did Jesus die?

My post has nothing to do with robots. Just people.

What's the difference between gaining someone's favour and pleasing them?

Jesus died to pay the price for our sins. That is precisely why trying not to sin is not the point, because the price has already been paid for all of our sins.

As for favour vs pleasing, think of it in terms of a parent. If you are a parent or if you had good parents, then you are aware of how much pleasure children can bring to their parents. No matter how unruly or messed up a kid turns out, a parent will typically always love them. A parent's love, typically is unconditional (I know there are exceptions). However, when your kid paints something at school and chose something that says "I love you mommy" or "I love you daddy" and gives it to you, it pleases you despite the fact you loved them anyway whether they did this or not. The same applies when you see them respecting the rules you set out, or doing things the way you taught them. It isnt obeying you that makes you love them, you were going to love them anyway, but it specially pleases you to see them obeying you.

Good questions. I hope I can answer them for you.

Why Jesus Died:
Surprise! Because Jesus loves you! Okay, seriously, break it down. God the Father creates Man in order to lavish his love on him. Really. Man screws it up. Man screws it up so badly in fact, that his sin was an eternal sin, with eternally lasting effects. All of mankind is cursed henceforce because of himself. Man spends most of history mad at God about this. Anyway, God still loved us, and desired to have what he created us for, that eternal, beautiful, intimate relationship. Why do you make sacrifices for your best friend, your husband, your wife, your kids? Because you love them and you desire to show them love. God still wanted us, but since our sin was an enternal one, he had to "fix" it. But the only way for him to dismiss sin, being a holy and just God, was to have that sin paid for. And there were only two options. Have every man die for his own sin, paying the ultimate price of pain, sorrow, and eternal seperation from God, or have someone "big enough" to trade in for that punishment. A bigger fish, so to speak. And since the biggest fish around was God himself, the Father allowed the Son to take on our punishment, to get rid of that fatal eternal sin, IN ORDER THAT he can regain that love relationship with us. Jesus didn't just die for the heck of it, so that sin would "go away" but because he was after something...us. What he wants from us is not to "take away" his sacrafice by trying to be good enough for him, but to plunge headlong into that real and personal relationship. This is far more than a set of rules, or a life style. This is an intimate encounter, knowing and loving God. It's not about "becoming a Christian" saying all the right words, doing all the right things. It's about chosing to love someone with everything you have. Anyone in love can tell you that can be very scary, and very rewarding.

We tend to make ourselves into robots. We think God desires for us to all be the same, interact the same way, do it 1, 2, 3, spin around three times, say a prayer and take one stop forward, lather, rinse, repeat. God is dynamic. So are we. He created us differently, he desires the multifaceted relationships we can offer him. He isn't asking us to be conformed robotic members of society. He knows we're human, he knows we make mistakes, he knows we have good days and we have bad days. And he's all right with that. Surprise! God understands what it is like to be us!!!!

Gaining someone's favor implies you had to earn it. That you had to do something to prove yourself worthy of their affection. Usually, we do this by pleasing them, yes. "If I please so and so, they'll like me and be my friend." God's saying "Guess what. Even if you never ever ever get it right, I will never ever ever stop approving of you, loving you, accepting you, and giving you my favor." That is completely different. Your motivation for pleasing God stops becoming "I must make God like me" to "Wow, God likes me...and I didn't have to do anything...boy...I want to show him that I appreciate that and I like him too." And pleasing him becomes a natural outpouring of love and affection for someone who so freely gives it to us.

This is what I believe. When I make a decision in life, when I face troubles and trials, I face it in the knowledge that my God will never turn around and use guilt manipulation on me to "make me behave". I face it knowing God will never abandon me because I sinned, screwed up, or forgot to say "I'm sorry". I face it knowing I can be completely 100% honest with my God about anything, no matter how dark and depressing, and he will completely understand and continue to love and accept me. He favors me when no one else will. He's someone I WANT to please.

Does that help?

Think about it.... If you're a good Christian, after you die you live forever. This means that your "life" began some few-odd decades ago and from that point in time it is eternal. Every wrong thing you've done, every mistake you have made, every hurt you've imposed upon others, everything you might dislike about yourself or others... all of it matters. You will be judged for all of it. There is no escaping that. Jesus pre-forgave your sins, but only if you truly try to not sin. But can you ever be sure that you are sin-free enough? Can you ever be sure that each and every wrong you did is forgiven? What if there's that one wrong you neglected to repent? What if there's one omission you made in confession? You will have to "live" with the moral consequences unto eternity.
It's not frightening. At least it wasn't supposed to be. The teacings of Jesus are actually very common sense-ical. Much like Buddhism. It was a very pure and humanistic theology.
Until the Romans got a hold of it. Since then ...
well, it's all been pretty much downhill.

It's not frightening. At least it wasn't supposed to be. The teacings of Jesus are actually very common sense-ical. Much like Buddhism. It was a very pure and humanistic theology.
Until the Romans got a hold of it. Since then ...
well, it's all been pretty much downhill.

Well, Revelations was written before the Romans had anything to do with the texts. It was written primarily against the Roman Empire.
And that is one of the 'scariest' books in the Bible.

I'm worried about people acting on the belief that dead babies go straight to heaven because they haven't had a chance to sin. Sure they lose say seventy or eighty years of mortal life, but in return they get a guarenteed eternity in heaven.
Dead babies don't go to heaven. And any Christian who disagrees is most likely a hypocrite or doesn't even understand their own faith. According to Catholic doctrine, all humans are born with original sin. If you die before being baptized you go to ... ok well they have that whole "purgatory" thing.
Baptists believe that you only go to heaven if you "accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" which is a concept that very few infants can fathom, but that's just an educated guess, so they must be going to hell.
This is why abortion is so bad, see, it's increasing the legions of Satan's armies.

... a God of grace, a God of wrath...

Hmmm...trying to reconcile this particular contradiction in terms ...

The REASON we put off sin and attempt to be sinless isn't to gain God's favor - he's already given it to his children. It's to please and honor him because we love him and we know doing his will makes his heart sing
God doesn't need to be pleased or honored.
But don't be deceived...scriptures say God sings over us. He delights in us. It's unconditional. "I love you, no matter what, because you're my child and I made you." Period.
If this is really true, then it stands to reason that,
Salvation is by EXISTANCE alone. Not by faith or works.

religion first started out with multiple gods in the middle east.... blame the hebrews....dumb assimilation.... :headbang:
Not exactly. Religion started out with multiple gods according to various tribes all over the earth. Monotheism, that started in the Middle East ... Persia to be exact ... blame the Zoroastrians. :headbang:

Christianity is frightening

Well ... duh!

This is why my kids are taught, at a very early age, the chant "I'm a Jew. I'm better than you!"

:D

blame the Zoroastrians. :headbang:

Dude ... I blame them for so much!

Well, Revelations was written before the Romans had anything to do with the texts. It was written primarily against the Roman Empire.
And that is one of the 'scariest' books in the Bible.
Almost ALL scripture was actually written beofre Constantine converted and created what we know today as The Bible. You can choose your own personal source as to who St. John the Divine was and what he was writing about.
As far a Revelations being "scary," it's actually quite fun if you know anything about symbolism and esoteric traditions!
:)

Dude ... I blame them for so much!
Me too!
Not the least of which, being present day Iran!

Dead babies don't go to heaven. And any Christian who disagrees is most likely a hypocrite or doesn't even understand their own faith. According to Catholic doctrine, all humans are born with original sin. If you die before being baptized you go to ... ok well they have that whole "purgatory" thing.
Baptists believe that you only go to heaven if you "accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" which is a concept that very few infants can fathom, but that's just an educated guess, so they must be going to hell.
This is why abortion is so bad, see, it's increasing the legions of Satan's armies.

Catholic does not = Christian. Catholic is a subset of Christianity not the whole of it.

Almost ALL scripture was actually written beofre Constantine converted and created what we know today as The Bible. You can choose your own personal source as to who St. John the Divine was and what he was writing about.
As far a Revelations being "scary," it's actually quite fun if you know anything about symbolism and esoteric traditions!
:)

I mean scary as in 1/3 of everything being annihilated.

Why do people allways refer to god as a male figure? Does god even have a gender? :confused:

Me too!
Not the least of which, being present day Iran!

Oh I love Iran. I've been to Iran ... it's a beautiful country with many things to see and do. Some of the nicest people on the planet and some great historical sights. I wouldn't do away with Iran if you paid me.

I'm ok with Iran.

What I'm not ok with is Tom Cruise. Oh wait ... he's a scientologist ...

Ok ... Zoroastrians ... what I'm not ok with is the American version of "The Ring 2" ... I seriously blame the Zoroastrians for that.

Why do people allways refer to god as a male figure? Does god even have a gender? :confused:

I never, ever refer to Allah as male. I think, though, that using "him" or whatever, is steeped in tradition more than anything.

Sort of like always calling ships "her".

As for calling God "him" or "her", however, you'll never catch me doing it.

Why do people allways refer to god as a male figure? Does god even have a gender? :confused:

The Christian God most likely does not have a gender. He is reffered to in the masculine because the rules of the English language say that when the gender is uncertain you use the masculine.

Catholic does not = Christian. Catholic is a subset of Christianity not the whole of it.
Thanks. This information isn't new to me. One may have been able to deduce that from the other sentence which mentions Baptists. Which are also a subset of Christianity, not the whole of it. Or one may have not.

Oh I love Iran. I've been to Iran ... it's a beautiful country with many things to see and do. Some of the nicest people on the planet and some great historical sights. I wouldn't do away with Iran if you paid me.

Don't forget their burgeoning film industry!
I'm not a fan of the ayatollahs, though.

"Christianity is frightening"

Yeah, but then again, so's yer momma! :D

The Christian God most likely does not have a gender. He is reffered to in the masculine because the rules of the English language say that when the gender is uncertain you use the masculine.
That and the Romans were pretty big on keeping women in their place. After all, The Bible was originally translated (circa 323) into Old Latin, as English was still in a stage that sounds like records being played backwards.

I'm not a fan of the ayatollahs, though.

Eww! I agree ... I couldn't abide a theocracy if you paid me ... and I'm Muslim!

Hmmm...trying to reconcile this particular contradiction in terms ...


God doesn't need to be pleased or honored.

If this is really true, then it stands to reason that,
Salvation is by EXISTANCE alone. Not by faith or works.

Firstly, I'd like to say I think Sandwhichmasters very accuratley summed up the teaching of the Bible.

As for this qoute. Love and wrath go together very well as you will learn or should know if you are a father. The second part, well i could be wrong but I don't think he used the word need. And the last part again I could be wrong but I don't think he said unconditional love causes salvation. It's the acceptance of it that does. Thus we come to ... faith.

I don't mean to put words in Sandwichmasters mouth but I believe that what he meant.

Your theology is frightening. :headbang:

Believe it or not, the point of a Christian life is not to stop sinning and be perfect. In fact, I'd say that the whole not sinning thing is rather low on God's priority list, comparitively. God desires a relationship, not a robot who picks up after themselves. He's looking for your heart, not how well you obey the rules. I can understand why people are afraid of Christianity, or hate it, because there are so many people out there who don't know what they believe and present this utilitarian "You sin YOU DIE!" mentality. Sure, yes, sin has eternal consequences (and temproal ones too), and if you make sin your master then you'll have to lie in that bed. But God's not standing there shaking his finger saying "You bad bad Christian, you messed up AGAIN. Well, I'll forgive you, this once. If you promise not to do it again." God doesn't want our self righteous smug Christianity. He's a God of love, a God of grace, a God of wrath, a God of justice, holy, righteous, pure, good, kind, merciful, compassionate. You can't view God from one angle, but understand that he acts with every facet of his being all the time.

The REASON we put off sin and attempt to be sinless isn't to gain God's favor - he's already given it to his children. It's to please and honor him because we love him and we know doing his will makes his heart sing. But don't be deceived...scriptures say God sings over us. He delights in us. It's unconditional. "I love you, no matter what, because you're my child and I made you." Period. Salvation by faith, not by works.

Secondly, the very idea that Christ's death was not sufficiant to cover our sins without our "help" is complete fantasy and not supported by one iota of Scripture.

Mmm, sorry. Ranting theologist here. If you're interested in discussing this in email, let me know.

-Pols

polson_007@yahoo.com
ya'll za! someone who understands what Christianity is all About!! Yea Baby!!

"Christianity is frightening"

Yeah, but then again, so's yer momma! :D

My Momma is in her late 50's, and would whoop yer ass for that!

I dont care if you are Bruce Lee ressurected, the woman would box your ears.

Mom Power.

Jesus died to pay the price for our sins. That is precisely why trying not to sin is not the point, because the price has already been paid for all of our sins.

As for favour vs pleasing, think of it in terms of a parent. If you are a parent or if you had good parents, then you are aware of how much pleasure children can bring to their parents. No matter how unruly or messed up a kid turns out, a parent will typically always love them. A parent's love, typically is unconditional (I know there are exceptions). However, when your kid paints something at school and chose something that says "I love you mommy" or "I love you daddy" and gives it to you, it pleases you despite the fact you loved them anyway whether they did this or not. The same applies when you see them respecting the rules you set out, or doing things the way you taught them. It isnt obeying you that makes you love them, you were going to love them anyway, but it specially pleases you to see them obeying you.


Yeah but unlike the lovely parent analogy you made (very good by the way) if your child is a bit bad … or you haven’t talked to him directly in years and he has doubt that you are his real biological parent (or something along similar lines) you as a good person do not punish your kid for having these questions about your authenticity

If your kid has lived separate from your direct influence (at least visible to him) and only has a few poorly written letters stating that you are his real parents … and he has gotten hundreds of these letters from other people around the world claiming the same thing


You could hardly blame him for having large doubts that you’re just as unsubstantiated claim is the correct one.

As a loving person I would never punish my kid in such a situation he is obviously over his head and has confusing messages

I would love him and when the tests come in later in life that show I was the real parent I would take him into my home and love him forever.


Not so with the Christian god though … for not believing yours is the one true letter and putting all your faith in it you end up being punished for all eternity

Not what I would call a loving god

Jesus died to pay the price for our sins. That is precisely why trying not to sin is not the point, because the price has already been paid for all of our sins.

Then why cant I just do as I please, without worry of reprocussion?
If I accept Jesus, and mean it...then I go to Heaven regardless, right?

So...if membership guarentees entry, then why would I even have to be a good person at all?

I hear so many Christians say, over and over, that If I accept Jesus as my personal saviour, then I will go to heaven, no matter what.
So, if my sins are forgiven automatically, then why bother living the life I have in any way but how I wish, regardless of who I harm?

Its an absolute, it was it is.
Its saying that, believers go to Heaven, regardless.

But what if its not so easy?

"It is far eaiser for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to go to Heaven."

That doesnt imply...."Unless you have a membership, and a get into Heaven Free Card."

As for favour vs pleasing, think of it in terms of a parent. If you are a parent or if you had good parents, then you are aware of how much pleasure children can bring to their parents. No matter how unruly or messed up a kid turns out, a parent will typically always love them. A parent's love, typically is unconditional (I know there are exceptions). However, when your kid paints something at school and chose something that says "I love you mommy" or "I love you daddy" and gives it to you, it pleases you despite the fact you loved them anyway whether they did this or not. The same applies when you see them respecting the rules you set out, or doing things the way you taught them. It isnt obeying you that makes you love them, you were going to love them anyway, but it specially pleases you to see them obeying you.

If that were the case, I would ask how many parents like to watch thier child sacrificed on a torture device?

snip
If that were the case, I would ask how many parents like to watch thier child sacrificed on a torture device?
Exactly

And we cant forget this is ETERNAL punishment

For some reason we have free will to accidentally fall in the trap that sends us to hell

And at that point we are beyond redemption god just supposedly gives up on us. Again not a loving parent.

If my kid gets sent to jail I don’t just cast him out I would be trying to contact him and try to get him to change his lifestyle so that he could come home to me and stay.

Yeah but unlike the lovely parent analogy you made (very good by the way) if your child is a bit bad … or you haven’t talked to him directly in years and he has doubt that you are his real biological parent (or something along similar lines) you as a good person do not punish your kid for having these questions about your authenticity

If your kid has lived separate from your direct influence (at least visible to him) and only has a few poorly written letters stating that you are his real parents … and he has gotten hundreds of these letters from other people around the world claiming the same thing


You could hardly blame him for having large doubts that you’re just as unsubstantiated claim is the correct one.

As a loving person I would never punish my kid in such a situation he is obviously over his head and has confusing messages

I would love him and when the tests come in later in life that show I was the real parent I would take him into my home and love him forever.


Not so with the Christian god though … for not believing yours is the one true letter and putting all your faith in it you end up being punished for all eternity

Not what I would call a loving god

He wont punish you, he just cant help you escape the consequences of your sin if you dont ask him for help. The same applies to a parent, they may have the power to save you from falling off that cliff, but if you dont reach up to grab their outstretched hand, there is nothing else they can do.

Then why cant I just do as I please, without worry of reprocussion?
If I accept Jesus, and mean it...then I go to Heaven regardless, right?

So...if membership guarentees entry, then why would I even have to be a good person at all?

I hear so many Christians say, over and over, that If I accept Jesus as my personal saviour, then I will go to heaven, no matter what.
So, if my sins are forgiven automatically, then why bother living the life I have in any way but how I wish, regardless of who I harm?

Its an absolute, it was it is.
Its saying that, believers go to Heaven, regardless.

But what if its not so easy?

"It is far eaiser for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to go to Heaven."

That doesnt imply...."Unless you have a membership, and a get into Heaven Free Card."



If that were the case, I would ask how many parents like to watch thier child sacrificed on a torture device?

This question is answered in James chapter 2. You are saved by faith but works are evidence of your faith. If you are really a Christian then you have a relationship with God and the holy spirit living in you, your life will reflect that. It is impossible to have a relationship with God that does not affect you in any way. If a person continues to sin and does not repent for it, then you must ask the question, does that person really know Christ? the obvious answer is no. Its not that you have to be a good person, its that you will want to.

He wont punish you, he just cant help you escape the consequences of your sin if you dont ask him for help. The same applies to a parent, they may have the power to save you from falling off that cliff, but if you dont reach up to grab their outstretched hand, there is nothing else they can do.
The difference being god is omni-potent your parents are not. he can save you even if you get confused if actually putting out your hand is the right thing to do


Cause you got to remember one person that claims to be your parent is saying give me your hand

A thousand other people are giving a thousand other suggestions some sounding just as reasonable

He has the power to save you and then ask you what you truly want when you are up on firm ground rather then when you are dangling over the edge slipping away
being shouted at by thousands

Okay, first...babies. This is a huge issue with people because there seems to be an age of accountability in the Bible, and yet God doesn't outright say one way or another. Personally, I've decided just to let God deal with the issue, he doesn't need my opinion on it.

Hmmm...trying to reconcile this particular contradiction in terms ....

Funny story. A parent sees a child going to touch a stove and slaps their hand away. Child thinks parent is being mean, cruel, oppresive, wrathful. Parent is actually saving child from pain. Theologically speaking, God's characteristics of grace, mercy, compassion and wrath all fall under the catagory of "love". Grace is the act of not giving us what we deserve...God hasn't just destroyed humanity, he found away around the problem that would both appease his wrath and save us.


God doesn't need to be pleased or honored.


No, God doesn't need it. I don't NEED to be kind to my best friend, she's not dependant on me. Do I do it anyway? Yes, because I love her and adore her and would do anything to make her smile because it makes me happy to please her. Because God doesn't NEED me to please and honor him doesn't mean I shouldn't.


If this is really true, then it stands to reason that,
Salvation is by EXISTANCE alone. Not by faith or works.

The problem is, we have to accept this gift. We have to plunge into that relationship with God and say "Yes, okay, I want this. I accept what you've done for me." You can't love two masters. It's either God or his enemy. God will not force himself or his salvation on you if you're not willing to take it.

Okay, I'm falling behind on replies and posts...I can't even see them all anymore...if I miss an issue you have directed at me, PLEASE email it to me and I'll respond there.

Polson

polson_007@yahoo.com

Okay, first things first, gender. Mine, and God's. I'm a girl (surprise!). God on the other hand, is refered to in Scripture by masculine gender nouns and adjectives, and he is refered to as "father" so we just continue with the masculine gender pronouns and such in English. But yes, whoever it was that said God doesn't have a gender was quite correct.

Okay...Backwoods said something about becoming a Christian and then just running around doing whatever you want with no repercutions. I'll say this...you missed the point. Christianity is not accepting a list of rules, or saying "Yes, Jesus, you died, I believe you, can I go to heaven now?". It's a relationship. It's falling deeply in love with God. A relationship takes work on your part. And yes, you will see fruit of that relationship, such as good deeds as someone mentioned. God's grace towards Christians in the matter of sin is not to be abused. Besides, sin has its consequences. Ask any abused child. The sin of the parent has a lasting effect. Backwoods, you also said something about sacrifice on a torture device? I wasn't quite sure what you meant.

Speaking of parents, Upward Thrust said some things about rotten parents I think. I'll agree that parents here on earth are not perfect, and that we cannot use the finite to define the infinite, but we can use it for anaology. Keep in mind that when God acts as a parent, he acts as the Perfect Parent who never gets it wrong. And keep in mind that he is the parent who sees all things..therefore he truly knows what's right and wrong for us. - Actually upon a second reading I realized I missed what Upwards was saying, but I'll leave that paragraph there. Upwards, I believe that you are currently now on solid ground. And currently, right now, I believe God is holding out his hand to you and trying to save you. I'll bet that if you for one moment in time, stopped and turned to look at God will clear eyes and let him define himself to you instead of defining him through your experiences, you'll see it too. But if you're not interested in knowing who he really is...you've already made a choice to jump off the cliff.

Secondly on topic...punishment. We often view obstacles or hardships in our lives as punishment from God "you were bad, go to your room!" When the truth is...life happens! Life is messed up because of...SIN! Whoever guessed it gets a prize. We have a disease here on Earth and it's at the heart of everything...self centeredness. You can only live a self centered life or a God centered life, there are only two options. So...this addresses the temporal sin.

Eternal punishment. I believe Upward said something about for not beliieving in God you get punished. It's a not a matter of belief, it's a matter of accepting or rejecting. If you reject God, he will have no choice but to reject you in eternity, because he's not about to force you to live it out in heaven in a relationship with him where you'll be miserable because it's not what you wanted in the first place. You're not rejecting a set of values and beliefs, you're rejecting a PERSON, you're rejectiong SALVATION, and you are thereby rejecting the benifts (heaven - being one of many) there of. And frankly, although there are various schools of thought on hell, my opinion is that the descriptions in the bible are metaphorical descriptions meant to try an explain what it will be like to be without the peace of God (which you feel here on Earth whether or not you realize it). To be completely cut off with no avenue to ever commune with him will be far more "torturous" than we realize. And remember...it was your choice. God says "You can have a relationship with me...or I'll remove myself entirely from you. One will be like living in heaven, one will be like living in hell. There is no middle ground". God doesn't WANT anyone to reject him. But he's not about to force us to love him. Don't be deceived...you can't have the benifits of the relationship without having the relationship.

And I'll use Upward's own words. "If my kid gets sent to jail I don’t just cast him out I would be trying to contact him and try to get him to change his lifestyle so that he could come home to me and stay." Indeed. That's exactly what Christ did. He "paid the bail" and now he's trying to convince you to come home to him and stay before it's too late. You've summed it up quite nicely, thank you.

Polson (the theological nerd who happens to also be a girl)

snip
Speaking of parents, Upward Thrust said some things about rotten parents I think. I'll agree that parents here on earth are not perfect, and that we cannot use the finite to define the infinite, but we can use it for anaology. Keep in mind that when God acts as a parent, he acts as the Perfect Parent who never gets it wrong. And keep in mind that he is the parent who sees all things..therefore he truly knows what's right and wrong for us. - Actually upon a second reading I realized I missed what Upwards was saying, but I'll leave that paragraph there. Upwards, I believe that you are currently now on solid ground. And currently, right now, I believe God is holding out his hand to you and trying to save you. I'll bet that if you for one moment in time, stopped and turned to look at God will clear eyes and let him define himself to you instead of defining him through your experiences, you'll see it too. But if you're not interested in knowing who he really is...you've already made a choice to jump off the cliff.

If he is I don’t get the message … and I cant force a belief

Maybe through my bad past with the RC church maybe because I am just not built for blind faith either way I don’t have it and there is no way for me to force it you either believe or you don’t

Personally I think if there is an all loving god he will ask me what I want after I die … he will provide me with all the information that I need and clear out all the other wrong voices so I can consider my choice

I don’t see salvation by faith alone as just nor fair specially in the world that we live in … god can do a much better job then that on giving me clear information rather then allowing me to be so uninformed about my decision


snip

Eternal punishment. I believe Upward said something about for not beliieving in God you get punished. It's a not a matter of belief, it's a matter of accepting or rejecting. If you reject God, he will have no choice but to reject you in eternity, because he's not about to force you to live it out in heaven in a relationship with him where you'll be miserable because it's not what you wanted in the first place. You're not rejecting a set of values and beliefs, you're rejecting a PERSON, you're rejectiong SALVATION, and you are thereby rejecting the benifts (heaven - being one of many) there of. And frankly, although there are various schools of thought on hell, my opinion is that the descriptions in the bible are metaphorical descriptions meant to try an explain what it will be like to be without the peace of God (which you feel here on Earth whether or not you realize it). To be completely cut off with no avenue to ever commune with him will be far more "torturous" than we realize. And remember...it was your choice. God says "You can have a relationship with me...or I'll remove myself entirely from you. One will be like living in heaven, one will be like living in hell. There is no middle ground". God doesn't WANT anyone to reject him. But he's not about to force us to love him. Don't be deceived...you can't have the benifits of the relationship without having the relationship.

And I'll use Upward's own words. "If my kid gets sent to jail I don’t just cast him out I would be trying to contact him and try to get him to change his lifestyle so that he could come home to me and stay." Indeed. That's exactly what Christ did. He "paid the bail" and now he's trying to convince you to come home to him and stay before it's too late. You've summed it up quite nicely, thank you.


That’s all good and fine but at the point of full realization god will still forsake you

For some reason god does not feel that you have the ability to make the decision after you are dead …

All said and done a bunch of present tripe that really convinces me even more so that the Christian god is not true

There is too much runabout for an all powerful deity

If he wants to be clear he can come up and ask me rather then allowing his often perverted message to be mixed in with a thousand other messages and then punish me for eternity for it

To me that would be a god worthy of worship

If not fuckem he does not deserve respect from me he is asking something of me that I do not have to give … blind faith

It is not in my nature

I can not force belief

And if that sends me to hell … well I really don’t have much of a choice

Does that help?
Actually, it helps tremendously. I wish more Christian apologists on this forum had your outlook.

Religions like to keep their masses afraid.
And we all like a good horror show.

What's the point?

Ok, Nietzsche :rolleyes:

Jesus died to pay the price for our sins. That is precisely why trying not to sin is not the point, because the price has already been paid for all of our sins.
But that's the same as saying sinning doesn't matter. Then the whole fall-from-grace-born-sinful thing falls away, and there is no need for salvation. Sinning has to matter. Since salvation is the goal, I don't see how attempting to avoid sin cannot be the point.

If the point is just to please god, to recognize that god loves us and to love him back, surely we can do that without having to impose an illusion of degrading self-sinfulness on ourselves.

Ok, Nietzsche :rolleyes:
While I am not an avid follower of his he does get it right sometimes

My Momma is in her late 50's, and would whoop yer ass for that!

I dont care if you are Bruce Lee ressurected, the woman would box your ears.

Mom Power.
I was going to respond with the same thing. ;)

While I am not an avid follower of his he does get it right sometimes


In my opinion, "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is of the societal and religious herd mentality" is not a valid philosophical argument.

The answer is simple. Religion should be destroyed for the good of humanity!

Christianity is frightening? Puh-lease. God loves us, and wants us to be happy. The idea of repenting for sins is an outdated relic of a simpler time, when religion was (obviously) more central to a person's life.

I think the goal is to be the best you can.

In my opinion, "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is of the societal and religious herd mentality" is not a valid philosophical argument.
and I am not of the opinion "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is a sinner and condemned to hell mentality on my interpretiation" is not a valid philisophical arguement

Your theology is frightening. :headbang:

Believe it or not, the point of a Christian life is not to stop sinning and be perfect. {snip}
That's it. Sign me up!

The answer is simple. Religion should be destroyed for the good of humanity!

Or not.

Christianity is frightening? Puh-lease. God loves us, and wants us to be happy. The idea of repenting for sins is an outdated relic of a simpler time, when religion was (obviously) more central to a person's life.

I think the goal is to be the best you can.
Hear hear that I can understand and maybe possibly believe in

and I am not of the opinion "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is a sinner and condemned to hell mentality on my interpretiation" is not a valid philisophical arguement


Nor am I of that opinion, mainly because it's not a philosophical argument ;)

The teacings of Jesus are actually very common sense-ical. Much like Buddhism.

All Religion is very common sense-ical by its very nature, religions spring up as a higher form of moral code, adding gravitas and authority to mere morals by adding a punishment eg. you will not go to heaven if you adulterise, steal etc. In Islam ".....Whosoever killeth a soul..... it shall be as if he had
killed all mankind, and whose saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he
had saved the life of all mankind." (The Holy Qur'an, 5:32). Similar to Christianitys 'thou shalt not kill' Thus all religions in their basic state are all very similar, only the emelishments of centurys of growth in different cultures change this.

Christianity is frightening? Puh-lease. God loves us, and wants us to be happy. The idea of repenting for sins is an outdated relic of a simpler time, when religion was (obviously) more central to a person's life.

I think the goal is to be the best you can.
Sounds good to me. :)

But then, we don't need Christianity for that.

okay...u sorta miss the point...if you "forget" something, who cares? when you ask christ to forgive you your sins, he forgives everything, past present and future. and confession is a catholic thing...it is a healthy practice, but has nothing to do with your salvation.

*snip of some good stuff*

First off, welcome to the NS boards! *gives complimentary gift basket of soaps and coupons*

Secondly, I didn't see anything that you said that I disagreed with. I'm thoroughly impressed. For that you get another basket. *gives basket of selective cookies of your choice*

I'd like to add you to my yahoo IM list if you don't mind. It seems like you could provide some intelligent conversations. ;)

The Christian God most likely does not have a gender. He is reffered to in the masculine because the rules of the English language say that when the gender is uncertain you use the masculine.

We'll there is that, and the fact that all of the personal pronouns used for Yaweh in the new and old testaments are male. There isn't a single instance of God refering to himself as anything other than male.

I'm not sure why people think a peaceful idealogy is bad all because a few people used it to abuse power by taking things out of context. Is Islam evil all because a few people use it to show why killing people is okay? It was a few Jews who condemned a certain figure to death(they wanted him merely stoned, not put on a torture device). Is Judaism a religion of pure evil bent on killing people who disagree with them? A woman killed a man. Does being a woman make one homocidal? One man was known to be racist. Are all men hateful bigots? I mean, every major group has had members who have wronged. Christianity is a philosophy of peace and acceptance that should be utilized in this world of hate and war, as long as it is not abused and taken out of context for personal gain. The same with Bhuddism, Judaism, and Islam. All of those are great things just as long as they are not abused.

PS. Some atheists have done some evil things, like force hatred down our throats. I guess atheism is horrifying too.

okay...u sorta miss the point...if you "forget" something, who cares? when you ask christ to forgive you your sins, he forgives everything, past present and future. and confession is a catholic thing...it is a healthy practice, but has nothing to do with your salvation.
What is absolution then?

Exactly

And we cant forget this is ETERNAL punishment

For some reason we have free will to accidentally fall in the trap that sends us to hell

And at that point we are beyond redemption god just supposedly gives up on us. Again not a loving parent.

If my kid gets sent to jail I don’t just cast him out I would be trying to contact him and try to get him to change his lifestyle so that he could come home to me and stay. nononononono. Misunderstanding. Hell is eternal separation from God in every single way, which is a choice brought about by ourselves.
Using the father/child metaphor. The son can, if he so chooses, leave his parents and make his own way, ignoring all his parents' advice (a metaphor for heresy, if you like). The path won't lead him to anything good, and it'll all be his own fault - however, his father is ready to welcome him back at any time, no questions asked.

OMG. I just told a Bible parable without even realising it.

I'm not sure why people think a peaceful idealogy is bad all because a few people used it to abuse power by taking things out of context.
I don't know either. What's up with those people, eh? (i.e. Perhaps you should read the first post. ;))

What is absolution then?

Absolution is a much rarer thing where your sins are completely erased from your heavenly tab. As I've been given to understand, confessing a sin doesn't completely blot it out from your record; you've confessed and shown you're sorry, and that's good, but you'll probably still do time in Purgatory for it. Whereas absolution is a complete pardon -- the sin's been expunged, like it never existed.

nononononono. Misunderstanding. Hell is eternal separation from God in every single way, which is a choice brought about by ourselves.
Using the father/child metaphor. The son can, if he so chooses, leave his parents and make his own way, ignoring all his parents' advice (a metaphor for heresy, if you like). The path won't lead him to anything good, and it'll all be his own fault - however, his father is ready to welcome him back at any time, no questions asked.

OMG. I just told a Bible parable without even realising it.
Hehe.

Okay, what about this analogy: The child wakes up one morning to find himself alone in the house. His parents are actually still there, but he cannot hear them, cannot see them, cannot touch them. He has no way to know that they are there. The neighbours all tell him, "Of course they're there." He could have faith and trust that what the neighbours tell is true, but he cannot verify it for himself.

He is then in a hell not of his own choosing.

We'll there is that, and the fact that all of the personal pronouns used for Yaweh in the new and old testaments are male. There isn't a single instance of God refering to himself as anything other than male.

Actually, if you read the Hebrew, God generally self refers as "We". The first use of something to call God in Torah is "Elohim", which is a plural word.

Abraham called God "Elah", which means "the one of greatness" and has no gender. This word has become "Allah".

The YHWH is a descriptor, not a name. It is a combination of various ways of saying "I am". It is not pronounced "Yah Weh".

Only in English does God self-refer as male. Then again, this makes sense because when those translations were made, women were chattel and in-house slaves, basically. Letting God have female aspects was blasphemy.

Think about it.... If you're a good Christian, after you die you live forever. This means that your "life" began some few-odd decades ago and from that point in time it is eternal. Every wrong thing you've done, every mistake you have made, every hurt you've imposed upon others, everything you might dislike about yourself or others... all of it matters. You will be judged for all of it. There is no escaping that. Jesus pre-forgave your sins, but only if you truly try to not sin. But can you ever be sure that you are sin-free enough? Can you ever be sure that each and every wrong you did is forgiven? What if there's that one wrong you neglected to repent? What if there's one omission you made in confession? You will have to "live" with the moral consequences unto eternity.

we're justified by faith, not works (although, yes, we are supposed to be good)

read John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-10

we are to do good works... but we are not saved by doing good works. Faith is required for salvation.

John 3:16 has been posted so many times... i don't want to aggravate anyone by posting it again. In short, Jesus says that whoever believes in him will have everlasting life.

here's Ephesians 2:8-10 (Paul speaking):

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Hehe.

Okay, what about this analogy: The child wakes up one morning to find himself alone in the house. His parents are actually still there, but he cannot hear them, cannot see them, cannot touch them. He has no way to know that they are there. The neighbours all tell him, "Of course they're there." He could have faith and trust that what the neighbours tell is true, but he cannot verify it for himself.

He is then in a hell not of his own choosing. However, his parents have left notes around the place. Unfortunately, he can't read very well.

Maybe the neighbours are trustworthy. Maybe they tell him that he's got to believe his parents are there, or his father will beat him. So much depends on his neighbours.

Exactly

And we cant forget this is ETERNAL punishment

For some reason we have free will to accidentally fall in the trap that sends us to hell.

Trust me, if you go to hell, it's by no accident. God won't let someone accidentally go to hell. That's just not how it works.

This is a story Jesus told about this very thing.

The Rich Man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-31
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "


This teaches us a few things:

1. Heaven and hell are final. Once your there, you are there for good. The gulf is far to great to cross. While this seems cruel, we have to take into consideration point number

2. This rich man wants his brothers to have an encounter with the dead Lazarus so that they will know to live their lives right. The problem is, they've already made their choice. God sent them prophets to tell them how to live, and they ignored him. God sent them the law about write and wrong and they ignored him. Even if he sent a man back from the dead these guys just didn't want to believe.

At some point in all of our lives, we are given a chance to choose between heaven (God and his perfect way) and hell (sin and the indulgence of this life). I promise you that God will give you a chance to choose, and he will more likely than not give you multiple chances to choose. Right now, he may be using me as a tool to get you to consider his offer.

However, his parents have left notes around the place. Unfortunately, he can't read very well.

Maybe the neighbours are trustworthy. Maybe they tell him that he's got to believe his parents are there, or his father will beat him. So much depends on his neighbours.
The analogy I made is one of a person who awakens to the realisation that God as portrayed in the Bible is just an illusion, an image of god but not god itself.

All the notes in the world aren't going to help if the child cannot read them. They might as well be illusions too.

The analogy I made is one of a person who awakens to the realisation that God as portrayed in the Bible is just an illusion, an image of god but not god itself.

All the notes in the world aren't going to help if the child cannot read them. They might as well be illusions too. God as portrayed in the Bible isn't an illusion. You may as well say that a man as written in a biography is illusion; it's not the full picture, but it's not an illusion.

Actually, if you read the Hebrew, God generally self refers as "We". The first use of something to call God in Torah is "Elohim", which is a plural word.

Abraham called God "Elah", which means "the one of greatness" and has no gender. This word has become "Allah".

The YHWH is a descriptor, not a name. It is a combination of various ways of saying "I am". It is not pronounced "Yah Weh".

Only in English does God self-refer as male. Then again, this makes sense because when those translations were made, women were chattel and in-house slaves, basically. Letting God have female aspects was blasphemy.

It's hard to find the exact pronunciation of YHWH as Hebrew script didn't/doesn't include vowels, hence the constonants only in his descriptive. Any projection of the "true" pronunciation is just speculation, really.

In the Christian's Old Testament, you're correct that God refers to himself/themsleves as Elohim. However, in the New Testament, Jesus himself refers to "The Father" on more than one occassion. God may not be male, per se, but He seems to have more of a masculine aura about Him than anything.

Trust me, if you go to hell, it's by no accident. God won't let someone accidentally go to hell. That's just not how it works.

This is a story Jesus told about this very thing.



This teaches us a few things:

1. Heaven and hell are final. Once your there, you are there for good. The gulf is far to great to cross. While this seems cruel, we have to take into consideration point number

2. This rich man wants his brothers to have an encounter with the dead Lazarus so that they will know to live their lives right. The problem is, they've already made their choice. God sent them prophets to tell them how to live, and they ignored him. God sent them the law about write and wrong and they ignored him. Even if he sent a man back from the dead these guys just didn't want to believe.

At some point in all of our lives, we are given a chance to choose between heaven (God and his perfect way) and hell (sin and the indulgence of this life). I promise you that God will give you a chance to choose, and he will more likely than not give you multiple chances to choose. Right now, he may be using me as a tool to get you to consider his offer. Of course, the story messes with "justification by faith alone" a little. The rich man and his brothers probably had faith in God, yet didn't choose to obey his commandments and moral strictures.
Of course, there's the thingy:
God is love
And he who lives in love
Lives in God
And God is him.

Food for thought.

okay...u sorta miss the point...if you "forget" something, who cares? when you ask christ to forgive you your sins, he forgives everything, past present and future. and confession is a catholic thing...it is a healthy practice, but has nothing to do with your salvation.


Actually, what you have stated is incorrect:

Hebrews 6:1-8

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will[a] do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


Hebrews 10:19-39

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me[h] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.[i] 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “ For yet a little while,
And He[j] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[k]just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[l]

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Actually, if you read the Hebrew, God generally self refers as "We". The first use of something to call God in Torah is "Elohim", which is a plural word.

Abraham called God "Elah", which means "the one of greatness" and has no gender. This word has become "Allah".

The YHWH is a descriptor, not a name. It is a combination of various ways of saying "I am". It is not pronounced "Yah Weh".

Only in English does God self-refer as male. Then again, this makes sense because when those translations were made, women were chattel and in-house slaves, basically. Letting God have female aspects was blasphemy.

YHWH is the name of god. Elohim is the generic term for god. anyone reading scriptures outloud will not say YHWH outloud because the name of god is too holy. (this is seen in the dead sea scrolls)

nononononono. Misunderstanding. Hell is eternal separation from God in every single way, which is a choice brought about by ourselves.
Using the father/child metaphor. The son can, if he so chooses, leave his parents and make his own way, ignoring all his parents' advice (a metaphor for heresy, if you like). The path won't lead him to anything good, and it'll all be his own fault - however, his father is ready to welcome him back at any time, no questions asked.

OMG. I just told a Bible parable without even realising it.
Too bad faith is not a conscious choice … another reason I find salvation by faith to be un-just

Ok a few points from my viewpoint

1) Your relationship with God and Christ is should be a friendship not enslavement. If God was a "slave owner" He would expect us to be perfect and since we’re not we would all be dammed to hell but since we are his friends he will forgive us because all friends will end up screwing up and need to make up. Sin is basically us screwing up are friendship with God. So we should try to minimize the # of times we sin and try to make up with God when we do sin because He is (or wants to be) everyone’s best friend.

2) It is my belief that God has a plan for everyone because He is a Loving and merciful God and it would not make much since for this loving and merciful God to dame entire nations because they have never herd of Him and thus could not accept Him.

3) Dante’s Inferno is a nice book NOT Catholic or Christian dogma.:headbang: There is Haven. There is Hell. And in the middle (human reference God could have it on the side or some pocket of Haven) is purgatory. None of this crap about rings or levels prison is prison and hell is hell.

YHWH is the name of god. Elohim is the generic term for god. anyone reading scriptures outloud will not say YHWH outloud because the name of god is too holy. (this is seen in the dead sea scrolls)

Wow .... care to back that up? The first instance of the YHWH was when Moses asked God what he should say to the people and God said "Tell them 'I am to be is shall be as' sent you."

It's actually a little bit of insight into Jewish wit, but it isn't a name. God gave only one name, Elah (Allah). That's it. We say it all the time.

Wow .... care to back that up? The first instance of the YHWH was when Moses asked God what he should say to the people and God said "Tell them 'I am to be is shall be as' sent you."

It's actually a little bit of insight into Jewish wit, but it isn't a name. God gave only one name, Elah (Allah). That's it. We say it all the time.


I think

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


Makes a little more sense than 'I am to be is shall be as' :D

Actually, if you read the Hebrew, God generally self refers as "We". The first use of something to call God in Torah is "Elohim", which is a plural word.

Abraham called God "Elah", which means "the one of greatness" and has no gender. This word has become "Allah".

The YHWH is a descriptor, not a name. It is a combination of various ways of saying "I am". It is not pronounced "Yah Weh".

Only in English does God self-refer as male. Then again, this makes sense because when those translations were made, women were chattel and in-house slaves, basically. Letting God have female aspects was blasphemy.


Hmm. As I recal Elohim is from the plural form of El. "ohim" as a suffix is used to distinguish that although God is a unified being, he is also three parts. The holy spirit is spoken of in Genisis during the creation account, as is God the Father. Some scholars think that the human form God chose to interact with Adam and Eve in relates to the Son. This would be the trinity and the reson for plurality (latter established to a greater degree in the New Testament)

El itself is masculin, and even aside from that all plural pronouns in Hebrew are masculin.


Also, the third letter of YHWH (as you put it) is vey so it would be more appropriate to make it YHVH. But that's just a technacality.

Edit: Fixed a couple of punctuation problems.

God is love
And he who lives in love
Lives in God
And God is him.

Food for thought.
Exactly! And because this is so, Christianity is unnecessary.

Wow .... care to back that up? The first instance of the YHWH was when Moses asked God what he should say to the people and God said "Tell them 'I am to be is shall be as' sent you."

It's actually a little bit of insight into Jewish wit, but it isn't a name. God gave only one name, Elah (Allah). That's it. We say it all the time.

Exod. 6:3, "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord [Yahweh] I did not make myself known to them."

יְהֹוָה - its from the verb to be. which equals "I will be who i will be" or as you put it "i am who i am."

the verse you speak of is exodus 3:13. if you read 2 verses ahead..

וַיֹּאמֶר עוֹד אֱלֹהִים אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, כֹּה-תֹאמַר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם, וְזֶה זִכְרִי לְדֹר דֹּר

translates to : 15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.

When YHWH is translated in english bibles it is noted at LORD. also Lord is from Adonai. God says his name is YHWH.

Too bad faith is not a conscious choice … another reason I find salvation by faith to be un-just You'd have to take that up with Luther. Personally I don't believe in salvation by faith alone. What the hell, I trust God to make the right decisions.

Exactly! And because this is so, Christianity is unnecessary. Untrue. Think of how good everything would be if we all followed Christ's commands and things… oh, wait, that's called post-apocalypse - ie, not gonna happen until the end of the world.
The thing with lack of faith is that the lack grows stronger, pushing one away from God. So it is very necessary.

Exactly

And we cant forget this is ETERNAL punishment

For some reason we have free will to accidentally fall in the trap that sends us to hell

And at that point we are beyond redemption god just supposedly gives up on us. Again not a loving parent.

If my kid gets sent to jail I don’t just cast him out I would be trying to contact him and try to get him to change his lifestyle so that he could come home to me and stay.

I am certain that someone could put this better, but...

Because God loves us, and does not want us to be separated from Him for eternity, he sent Jesus to be tortured to death for us, and die and pay the price for us, so that we would not have to if we believe in Him, believe that He is who He says He is, and that He did it for us, so that we could be with Him. God does not want anyone to perish. He said so repeatedly, and made the ultimate sacrifice to prove it. What more do you want?

If your kid did something wrong, and was going to jail, would you offer to serve his sentence in his place? Especially if the kid did not respect you or even want to know you, much less want to live in your house with you? Well that is what God did. While we were his enemies, he died for us, to save us from the consequences of our actions. That does not sound like a bad guy to me...

Also, the third letter of YHWH (as you put it) is vey so it would be more appropriate to make it YHVH. But that's just a technacality.



your right. i took ancient hebrew as well as biblical hebrew in college. its thought that the vav* was pronounced waw* in ancient times. which makes the pronunciation of YHWH or YHVH almost impossible to determine...

You'd have to take that up with Luther. Personally I don't believe in salvation by faith alone. What the hell, I trust God to make the right decisions.

Exactly. Nobody is going to hell on a technicality. If you end up in hell it's because you chose to be there.

I am certain that someone could put this better, but...

Because God loves us, and does not want us to be separated from Him for eternity, he sent Jesus to be tortured to death for us, and die and pay the price for us, so that we would not have to if we believe in Him, believe that He is who He says He is, and that He did it for us, so that we could be with Him. God does not want anyone to perish. He said so repeatedly, and made the ultimate sacrifice to prove it. What more do you want?


Another problem I have with the christian god

He had to create a person with the soul purpose of being sacraficed ... to himself

He is the only one requiring the death of jesus (or some consider jesus god too)

So he sacraficed himself to ... himself

What a pointless gesture

Untrue. Think of how good everything would be if we all followed Christ's commands and things… oh, wait, that's called post-apocalypse - ie, not gonna happen until the end of the world.
The thing with lack of faith is that the lack grows stronger, pushing one away from God. So it is very necessary.
I'm not sure why you think "Christianity is unnecessary" equates to a lack of faith in god. "God is Love" does not deny faith in god.

Another problem I have with the christian god

He had to create a person with the soul purpose of being sacraficed ... to himself

He is the only one requiring the death of jesus (or some consider jesus god too)

So he sacraficed himself to ... himself

What a pointless gesture

No, it is more like a judge, seeing that you cannot pay your fine, paying the fine for you so you don't have to go to jail. The judge said you owe, the judge paid on your behalf. Not pointless at all.

Another problem I have with the christian god

He had to create a person with the soul purpose of being sacraficed ... to himself

He is the only one requiring the death of jesus (or some consider jesus god too)

So he sacraficed himself to ... himself

What a pointless gesture


First and foremost, you have to remember that Jesus was infact equal to and wholly God himself. He could have, at any time chosen to end it. He had all the power in the situation, and he proved that by telling death to stick it. This was his choice.

In effect he said, "Sure I'll die. But you know what, just when death thinks it's won, I'll turn right around and walk back out of this tomb."

Because God loves us, and does not want us to be separated from Him for eternity, he sent Jesus to be tortured to death for us, and die and pay the price for us, so that we would not have to if we believe in Him, believe that He is who He says He is, and that He did it for us, so that we could be with Him. God does not want anyone to perish. He said so repeatedly, and made the ultimate sacrifice to prove it. What more do you want?


some people here remember the loving and just god thread. in my opinion, the christian god is not loving and is not just. god does nothing to save us if you ask me. he relies on falible humans to spread his infalible word, which is full of illuision, visions, symbols, metaphors, ect. if god did not want anyone to perish, he could save us all...

First and foremost, you have to remember that Jesus was infact equal to and wholly God himself. He could have, at any time chosen to end it. He had all the power in the situation, and he proved that by telling death to stick it. This was his choice.

In effect he said, "Sure I'll die. But you know what, just when death thinks it's won, I'll turn right around and walk back out of this tomb."
So there was no lasting consequence

Again what a pointless gesture

It would be more impressive if he actualy sacrafised more then a bit of pain (even though undeserved ... though lots of regular people get what they dont deserve)

and some time

I would almost say the theifs that died next to him sacraficed more ... they potentialy were not saved AND went through the same pain as christ

In the end they payed the higher price by my standards

First and foremost, you have to remember that Jesus was infact equal to and wholly God himself. He could have, at any time chosen to end it. He had all the power in the situation, and he proved that by telling death to stick it. This was his choice.

In effect he said, "Sure I'll die. But you know what, just when death thinks it's won, I'll turn right around and walk back out of this tomb."

why create death in the firstplace? why did god make us to be born on earth when we could have been born in heaven?

some people here remember the loving and just god thread. in my opinion, the christian god is not loving and is not just. god does nothing to save us if you ask me. he relies on falible humans to spread his infalible word, which is full of illuision, visions, symbols, metaphors, ect. if god did not want anyone to perish, he could save us all...

But the only part that really matters in the long run is simple. It's not about the rules and stuff. It's about Jesus.

Don't think about it like the Jewish law, because it's not about the law, it's about faith.

why create death in the firstplace? why did god make us to be born on earth when we could have been born in heaven?


Because then he wouldn't have given you a choice. It would have been, "Hey there, you're with me now, and you never had an option.

How much better is it to be loved by someone who doesn't have to love you than it is to be loved by someone who has no choice.

My parents love me, but that's nothing compared to my fiance and her love for me.

Christianity doesn't frighten me, but God save us from His followers.

Because then he wouldn't have given you a choice. It would have been, "Hey there, you're with me now, and you never had an option.

How much better is it to be loved by someone who doesn't have to love you than it is to be loved by someone who has no choice.

My parents love me, but that's nothing compared to my fiance and her love for me.

this choice you speak of is a terrible thing. we have no way of making this choice. a book tells us we will burn in hell if we dont follow what it says. yet another book says the same thing. and another, and another and another...

how can i make a choice to follow god when im faced with many gods to choose from? there is no evidence that proves which god is the real one. now how do i make a choice? after all, my everlasting soul is on the line, and im forced to make a guess and if im wrong then ill pay the ultimate price...

I'm not sure why you think "Christianity is unnecessary" equates to a lack of faith in god. "God is Love" does not deny faith in god. Well, Christianity as I'm given to understand it means that one believes Jesus to be God incarnate, his teachings to be absolute truth plus faith in God. I would say that Jesus taught people the Gospel for a reason. Also, Christianity SHOULD :mad: make people into better people. At least it does sometimes.

Another problem I have with the christian god

He had to create a person with the soul purpose of being sacraficed ... to himself

He is the only one requiring the death of jesus (or some consider jesus god too)

So he sacraficed himself to ... himself

What a pointless gesture

The sole purpose of Christ's existance on Earth was not to "sacrifice himself", it was to advance His kingdom. As messiah, he fulfilled the prophecies set by OT prophets as well as God himself, more specifically His curse to the serpent back in Genesis 3:15

[The Lord said]"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

He was that seed. The second Adam--the one to set things right between man and God. And because that breach between mortal and Immortal was gapped, the advancement of his kingdom on earth could be fulfilled. In fact, the very last thing he said unto his disciples (aka the Great Commission) was:

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Not to mention the specific mentionings of his purpose:

And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

[Jesus said] "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

[Jesus said] "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

[Jesus said] "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

[John the Baptist said] "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Well, I could go on, but I hope you're getting an understanding by now. :)

So there was no lasting consequence

Again what a pointless gesture

It would be more impressive if he actualy sacrafised more then a bit of pain (even though undeserved ... though lots of regular people get what they dont deserve)

and some time

I would almost say the theifs that died next to him sacraficed more ... they potentialy were not saved AND went through the same pain as christ

In the end they payed the higher price by my standards

He didn't come to impress anyone. He came to fulfill what was necessary. Because sin is punishable by death (and by death, scripture means "separation from God and His Holiness"), the Jews needed to sacrifice their favored labors (i.e. cows, goats, doves if they were herders and breeders and grain, wheat, barley if they were farmers--and any acceptable animal they could purchase if they were neither) in order to pay the "blood debt" their sins brought upon them.

However, these sacrifices only brought about a covering for the sins they confessed to, and any new sins they commit they'd need to do the process all over again. It would take perfect blood--one without sin or imperfection--to completely redeem any and all sin for all time. However, just like the sacrifices of old, one needed to accept that the animal/offering they brought was theirs to give. If they didn't take action they didn't get a covering from sin. Thus in the same manner if one doesn't accept the sacrifice of Christ one doesn't get its covering. Early Christians, many of whom were familiar with Jewish tradition and law, drew the connections and understood why it was and had to be in this manner. He payed the blood debt, and because he was of Gentile blood as well as Jewish, his blood can and does cover all.

And all people sin. All sin, again, brings death--the separation of man from God. There's no getting around it except through God's given sacrifice for us.

As for the thieves, one did go to Paradise as he understood the purpose behind Christ's sacrifice and accepted it. One rejected it, and thus remained separate from Him. When it comes to the punishments they received in comparison to the punishment Jesus went through, there was a vast vast difference. The thieves were only crucified, and maybe just kept confined for a few days before hand. Jesus however, was given "special treatment" by the request of the Pharisees. Something "fit for a king". Beaten, lashed, cat-of-nine-tailed, and given a crown of thorns. This was not common day occurance.

The difference being god is omni-potent your parents are not. he can save you even if you get confused if actually putting out your hand is the right thing to do


Cause you got to remember one person that claims to be your parent is saying give me your hand

A thousand other people are giving a thousand other suggestions some sounding just as reasonable

He has the power to save you and then ask you what you truly want when you are up on firm ground rather then when you are dangling over the edge slipping away
being shouted at by thousands

That is not true. There are rules that God must abide by. For example he cannot be in the presense of sin and he cannot take away your free will. He also cannot lie, cannot sin, etc.

He has provided a way out of the consequences of your sin, but you have to do your part. I can provide life boats and if your ship sinks you can get on the boats, but I cant make people get on the boats, they can use them if they want or they can take their chances swimming.

But that's the same as saying sinning doesn't matter. Then the whole fall-from-grace-born-sinful thing falls away, and there is no need for salvation. Sinning has to matter. Since salvation is the goal, I don't see how attempting to avoid sin cannot be the point.

If the point is just to please god, to recognize that god loves us and to love him back, surely we can do that without having to impose an illusion of degrading self-sinfulness on ourselves.

Sinning does not matter in terms of what it takes to get into heaven. However, staying away from sin is still a good thing with its own rewards. Its like a car, having air conditioning doesnt matter, but it sure makes driving easier if you have it.

Upwards...in regards to the post quoted below....looks like you already made your choice. *shrugs* And I shall leave you to your decision.


If he is I don’t get the message … and I cant force a belief

Maybe through my bad past with the RC church maybe because I am just not built for blind faith either way I don’t have it and there is no way for me to force it you either believe or you don’t

Personally I think if there is an all loving god he will ask me what I want after I die … he will provide me with all the information that I need and clear out all the other wrong voices so I can consider my choice

I don’t see salvation by faith alone as just nor fair specially in the world that we live in … god can do a much better job then that on giving me clear information rather then allowing me to be so uninformed about my decision


That’s all good and fine but at the point of full realization god will still forsake you

For some reason god does not feel that you have the ability to make the decision after you are dead …

All said and done a bunch of present tripe that really convinces me even more so that the Christian god is not true

There is too much runabout for an all powerful deity

If he wants to be clear he can come up and ask me rather then allowing his often perverted message to be mixed in with a thousand other messages and then punish me for eternity for it

To me that would be a god worthy of worship

If not fuckem he does not deserve respect from me he is asking something of me that I do not have to give … blind faith

It is not in my nature

I can not force belief

And if that sends me to hell … well I really don’t have much of a choice

Christianity doesn't frighten me, but God save us from His followers.
*lmao*

Amen!


Well, I've finally waded through all those posts, and I'm not going to say anything *l* other than if anyone has questions for me, they can email me. (Roman...I use msn, or you can just fire me off some emails for discussion). Oh, wait, I will say one...or two more things.

1. Whatever read in Scripture must be read in light of everything else Scripture says. You cannot read the verse about God's love without reading the verse about God's thirst for justice, and vice versa.

2. This is for the Christian Advocators out there: Remember that people have a lot of pressupositions that you have to dismantle, or expose is maybe a better word, before you can really explain God. For example...Upward Thrust obviously believes faith is not a choice, therefore discussing the concept of faith being a choice or not being a choice is prior to a discussion on having faith in God (sorry Upwards for using you as an example, I hope you don't mind).

Okay, I know, I said only two, but here's a third one.

3. Again, for the Christian Advocators...be passionate, be excited, be intellegent, be open hearted (if that's a word), be understanding, be willing to put yourself in another's shoes, and be aware of when you have fulfilled your obligation to speak the truth and let God take care of the rest. Another's response to truth is not your responsibility.

And so...having fulfilled my responsibility, I shall return to my dreary nation of Sandwiches and chatting with trekkies. *salutes*

Polson
polson_007@yahoo.com

Think about it.... If you're a good Christian, after you die you live forever. This means that your "life" began some few-odd decades ago and from that point in time it is eternal. Every wrong thing you've done, every mistake you have made, every hurt you've imposed upon others, everything you might dislike about yourself or others... all of it matters. You will be judged for all of it. There is no escaping that. Jesus pre-forgave your sins, but only if you truly try to not sin. But can you ever be sure that you are sin-free enough? Can you ever be sure that each and every wrong you did is forgiven? What if there's that one wrong you neglected to repent? What if there's one omission you made in confession? You will have to "live" with the moral consequences unto eternity.

I for one am protastant. ;)

Christian Morality is a selfish morality, it's aim being eternal happiness and satisfaction for the individual.

Christianity stresses selflessness, but only on Earth in order to achieve your personal goal of ever-lasting bliss in heaven. The motive of the Christian to do good is that it is in his own self-interest, not out of altruism. Also, the threat of eternal, indescribable pain in hell drives him twoards heaven for fear of his own pain.

These threats and promises are inexcusable abuses of charisma and power by religious leaders attempting to control a group and gain power for themselves.

Morality should be founded upon our natural senses of guilt and justice, which differ wildly from individual to individual, from circumstance to circumstance. While this is most certainly present in the moral exercise of Christians, it is wholly absent from Christian moral philosophy and leads to underdeveloped natural morality, and overdeveloped selfishness and fear.

A moral system should be founded on man's natural moral tendencies, with a full understanding of human subjectivity, reactions, and motives, not on petty threats and baseless promises.

Think about it.... If you're a good Christian, after you die you live forever. This means that your "life" began some few-odd decades ago and from that point in time it is eternal. Every wrong thing you've done, every mistake you have made, every hurt you've imposed upon others, everything you might dislike about yourself or others... all of it matters. You will be judged for all of it. There is no escaping that. Jesus pre-forgave your sins, but only if you truly try to not sin. But can you ever be sure that you are sin-free enough? Can you ever be sure that each and every wrong you did is forgiven? What if there's that one wrong you neglected to repent? What if there's one omission you made in confession? You will have to "live" with the moral consequences unto eternity.
What you are discussing is Catholicism NOT Christianity! The Christianity statement is simple; Jesus paid your debt for your sins. Now it is up to us to live as purely as possible. We are NOT made to suffer for our past mistakes! Once in Heaven we are free of everything to do with this mortal life.
Christian Morality is a selfish morality, it's aim being eternal happiness and satisfaction for the individual.

Christianity stresses selflessness, but only on Earth in order to achieve your personal goal of ever-lasting bliss in heaven. The motive of the Christian to do good is that it is in his own self-interest, not out of altruism. Also, the threat of eternal, indescribable pain in hell drives him twoards heaven for fear of his own pain.

These threats and promises are inexcusable abuses of charisma and power by religious leaders attempting to control a group and gain power for themselves.

Morality should be founded upon our natural senses of guilt and justice, which differ wildly from individual to individual, from circumstance to circumstance. While this is most certainly present in the moral exercise of Christians, it is wholly absent from Christian moral philosophy and leads to underdeveloped natural morality, and overdeveloped selfishness and fear.

A moral system should be founded on man's natural moral tendencies, with a full understanding of human subjectivity, reactions, and motives, not on petty threats and baseless promises.
If it was motivated by selfisness then it would not be a true conversion. If I were into it for selfish reasons then what would be the motivation for telling people about it or even telling others I am Christian? That would be silly. Opening up myself and my family to ridicule from small minded people! The motivation is to save as many as possible and make your peace with those who won't listen. Kinda sounds like the situation over the past week in New Orleans, eh?! Some people you just can't save without force though that doesn't work in spiritual matters!

I don't mean to beat a dead thread, but I was tired last night and needed to go to bed ...

As for this qoute. Love and wrath go together very well as you will learn or should know if you are a father.
I am a mother, not a father, and at the worst of moments I've had with my children doing insanely ridiculous things that are wrong, the concept of "wrath" just has never entered my mind. (I dunno, ask my kids, they might think differently. Of course, I am a human and not the infallable creator).
The second part, well i could be wrong but I don't think he used the word need.
No, he didn't use the word "need," I did. I'm just somewhat at odds with the whole, we-are-here-and-God-is-up-there-theory. It's my point that there is no need to "please" God. God pretty much doesn't care what you think. The Creator is simply here, always and forever.
And the last part again I could be wrong but I don't think he said unconditional love causes salvation. It's the acceptance of it that does. Thus we come to ... faith.
It's unconditional. "I love you, no matter what, because you're my child and I made you." Period. Salvation by faith, not by works.
My understanding of unconditional love is that it exists. It's out there. One's acceptance or denial of it is completely irrelevant. If one feels unconditional love for another, it need not be felt, or "believed" by the recipient. It just is. Thus the postulate that receiving unconditional love (EXISTING, in this world) is all that is needed for salvation could stand true. Because if you require that faith in such love is neccesary, you're kind of putting a CONDITION on it right? Which negates the whole concept of unconditional love.

snip
Polson (the theological nerd who happens to also be a girl)
Nerds RULE! Especially female nerds.

All Religion is very common sense-ical by its very nature, religions spring up as a higher form of moral code, adding gravitas and authority to mere morals by adding a punishment eg. you will not go to heaven if you adulterise, steal etc. In Islam ".....Whosoever killeth a soul..... it shall be as if he had
killed all mankind, and whose saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he
had saved the life of all mankind." (The Holy Qur'an, 5:32). Similar to Christianitys 'thou shalt not kill' Thus all religions in their basic state are all very similar, only the emelishments of centurys of growth in different cultures change this.
I completely agree with your statement. My fear is of the increasingly dominant christian What-Would-Jesus-Do? mentality that is permeating the American political system. Apparently Jesus would bomb Iraq. But that's beside the point of this thread.

What is absolution then?
It's a tenet of Catholocism, which most non-Catholic Christians (see LazyHippies, I really DO know the diference :) ) think is bollocks. Absolution is when a man of god (priest) hears your confessions and tells you that God will forgive you if you recite a few prayers, or give them money (Google: indulgences). My opinion, absolution is garbage. Your relationship with the Creator is yours alone to discover and experience. Good luck with that! It's a good time.

Actually, if you read the Hebrew, God generally self refers as "We". The first use of something to call God in Torah is "Elohim", which is a plural word.

Abraham called God "Elah", which means "the one of greatness" and has no gender. This word has become "Allah".

The YHWH is a descriptor, not a name. It is a combination of various ways of saying "I am". It is not pronounced "Yah Weh".

Only in English does God self-refer as male. Then again, this makes sense because when those translations were made, women were chattel and in-house slaves, basically. Letting God have female aspects was blasphemy.
I (heart) Keruvalia.
Thanks for putting that out there. But don't forget all the mathematical implications of YHWH. (Note: ancient Hebrew letters were also the NUMERICAL symbols of the day). I'm hoping others will discuss the fact that the ancient words for God are plural. Kind of puts a damper on the MONOtheism aspect of Judeo-Christian theology, doesn't it?

your right. i took ancient hebrew as well as biblical hebrew in college. its thought that the vav* was pronounced waw* in ancient times. which makes the pronunciation of YHWH or YHVH almost impossible to determine...


Your college had that? Meh, I wish mine offered it.....yes, I am that nerdy :(

I havn't read every post, but I would like to point out that Gods forgiving knows no limmets and it is never too late to turn twords him. I have a frend at church that used to be a Satenist! but he was reserching the subject one day when sudenly, it hit him "I on the wrong side!" he thought to himself. he thought that it might be too late to ask for forgivness but when he whent to chirch and beggid fore God to accept him, he didn't feel embarrised as one normaly would when standing infront of hundrids of people, rather he felt clean, a fealing that he had never felt befor! he felt clean not on the outside, but inside, after all the evil things he did, he finly felt clean.

Exod. 6:3, "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord [Yahweh] I did not make myself known to them."

??????? - its from the verb to be. which equals "I will be who i will be" or as you put it "i am who i am."

the verse you speak of is exodus 3:13. if you read 2 verses ahead..

????????? ???? ???????? ???-??????, ????-?????? ???-?????? ??????????, ?????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????, ?????????? ????????; ???-??????? ???????, ????? ??????? ????? ????

translates to : 15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.

When YHWH is translated in english bibles it is noted at LORD. also Lord is from Adonai. God says his name is YHWH.
The Old English word LORD technically is not rooted in the Hebrew word Adonai. It's just that the scribes in King James' employ were instructed to make that correlation in their translations, lest their throats be slit. Think about it, Jesus, or God for that matter, as LORD didn't even enter consciousness before the word LORD existed right?

*lmao*

Amen!


Well, I've finally waded through all those posts, and I'm not going to say anything *l* other than if anyone has questions for me, they can email me. (Roman...I use msn, or you can just fire me off some emails for discussion). Oh, wait, I will say one...or two more things.

1. Whatever read in Scripture must be read in light of everything else Scripture says. You cannot read the verse about God's love without reading the verse about God's thirst for justice, and vice versa.

2. This is for the Christian Advocators out there: Remember that people have a lot of pressupositions that you have to dismantle, or expose is maybe a better word, before you can really explain God. For example...Upward Thrust obviously believes faith is not a choice, therefore discussing the concept of faith being a choice or not being a choice is prior to a discussion on having faith in God (sorry Upwards for using you as an example, I hope you don't mind).

Okay, I know, I said only two, but here's a third one.

3. Again, for the Christian Advocators...be passionate, be excited, be intellegent, be open hearted (if that's a word), be understanding, be willing to put yourself in another's shoes, and be aware of when you have fulfilled your obligation to speak the truth and let God take care of the rest. Another's response to truth is not your responsibility.

And so...having fulfilled my responsibility, I shall return to my dreary nation of Sandwiches and chatting with trekkies. *salutes*

Polson
polson_007@yahoo.com



Live long and prosper -.- v

Christian Morality is a selfish morality, it's aim being eternal happiness and satisfaction for the individual.

Christianity stresses selflessness, but only on Earth in order to achieve your personal goal of ever-lasting bliss in heaven. The motive of the Christian to do good is that it is in his own self-interest, not out of altruism. Also, the threat of eternal, indescribable pain in hell drives him twoards heaven for fear of his own pain.

These threats and promises are inexcusable abuses of charisma and power by religious leaders attempting to control a group and gain power for themselves.

Morality should be founded upon our natural senses of guilt and justice, which differ wildly from individual to individual, from circumstance to circumstance. While this is most certainly present in the moral exercise of Christians, it is wholly absent from Christian moral philosophy and leads to underdeveloped natural morality, and overdeveloped selfishness and fear.

A moral system should be founded on man's natural moral tendencies, with a full understanding of human subjectivity, reactions, and motives, not on petty threats and baseless promises.


My goodness, people still exist who advocate ethical egoism!? :eek:

*takes a photograph*

Untrue. Think of how good everything would be if we all followed Christ's commands and things… oh, wait, that's called post-apocalypse - ie, not gonna happen until the end of the world.
The thing with lack of faith is that the lack grows stronger, pushing one away from God. So it is very necessary.
Whaaaaa? Yeah, everything would be great if we followed Jesus's command which was what again? Oh that's right, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. Treat others as you would be treated yourself? How freaking simple! Too bad most modern Christians are about shunning and shaming. Converting to man-made dogma and legistlating morality. Sick, sad little world.

I am certain that someone could put this better, but...

Because God loves us, and does not want us to be separated from Him
See, this is the biggest problem with Christianity. Listen ... we are not separate from our Creator. We don't need to gain his/her favor to be reunited. God is with us and in us always. How hard is that to understand?

Meh

That is not true. There are rules that God must abide by.
Whaaaaaaaaat? Says who? God abides by no rules. If God has rules to follow then it stands to reason that there is someone looking over HIS/HER shoulder. Who might that be? And why aren't we worshipping that which creates rules for God to exist by?

Sinning does not matter in terms of what it takes to get into heaven. However, staying away from sin is still a good thing with its own rewards. Its like a car, having air conditioning doesnt matter, but it sure makes driving easier if you have it.
It sure does. But we wouldn't want to sacrifice our luxuries to conserve non-renewable fossil fuels, now would we?
WWJD?
Jesus would roll down the windows to conserve gas.

Well now, it seems I've finally caught up with this thread. I've said my piece/peace and now must let it rest in peace.
Go to God, little thread. Unto you I commend it's spirit.

Yeah, about Christian Morality being selfish.

I've seen so many definitions on selfish that I haven't been able to figure out if I am wholly and in every aspect selfish, or almost completely unselfish.

Taking a moderate view on selfishness, Christianity (not necessarily its individual prescribers) is not selfish at all. The point is not eternal life for the love of life, which is to say for the love of yourself; the point is eternal life with God, for God, for Love. Hopefully, you don't just want God to give you a cookie in exchange for you being his friend. That's not Christian.

When you talk about eternal damnation, realize that the Bible is not specific at all about the exact form of punishment. You're not going to like Hell or anything (weeping and gnashing of teeth = not good), but it's only tradition (probably arising from this particular aspect of social control) that talks about fire and brimstone, etc. And the parable (which is support for it, but far from conclusive). For all I know, after Armageddon, there won't even be demons there (my fault for not looking into this yet), since they all got pwned by God. It might be like Dante's "limbo" (or maybe a copy of this world minus accessibility to God). None of this really matters to the point, though. When one lives for God, he won't want to be separated from God, and God doesn't want that either. That is the concept of Hell. Separation, mirroring the relationship the person had with God on earth.

I don't mean to beat a dead thread, but I was tired last night and needed to go to bed ...

I am a mother, not a father, and at the worst of moments I've had with my children doing insanely ridiculous things that are wrong, the concept of "wrath" just has never entered my mind. (I dunno, ask my kids, they might think differently. Of course, I am a human and not the infallable creator).

No, he didn't use the word "need," I did. I'm just somewhat at odds with the whole, we-are-here-and-God-is-up-there-theory. It's my point that there is no need to "please" God. God pretty much doesn't care what you think. The Creator is simply here, always and forever.


My understanding of unconditional love is that it exists. It's out there. One's acceptance or denial of it is completely irrelevant. If one feels unconditional love for another, it need not be felt, or "believed" by the recipient. It just is. Thus the postulate that receiving unconditional love (EXISTING, in this world) is all that is needed for salvation could stand true. Because if you require that faith in such love is neccesary, you're kind of putting a CONDITION on it right? Which negates the whole concept of unconditional love.

As for love and wrath, the idea of wrath can be taken to the extreme but I believe that the meaning is mealy the just implementation of punishment for wrong actions taken- as such most parents have experienced this if not all. But others may say differently.

Umm the one difficulty in this theory about God's love for us is that we are his children and thus loves us in that manner. Many people have different beliefs on this subject but a critical look at the bible never calls us his children till we become "adopted" into his family. So his love for us would be as a creator to a created being. Perhaps that helps a little more with the wrath end of things but that’s really a minor point here.

The major issue is the acceptance of the love He has for humanity which brings salvation. I understand your issue. Think of it in this way. If I offer to become your father and adopt you because of my love for you, you can choose to accept it or not. You lack of acceptance doesn't change my love for you but it does change your circumstance. This is the core concept of the Bible. God's love for us is such that He gives us freedom to choose but that freedom unfortunately separates some from him.

The other major issue not touched on is - why is reconciliation needed?

The problem is we are rebellious creations and therefore we damn ourselves. I could use some analogies here but so often the analogy becomes the source of the argument. So God is just looking for mankind to say I'm sorry.

One analogy - As parents we discipline our children till they understand the wrong and then can have their relationship with us restored to normal. The parent never stops loving the child but we must enact certain measures to let them understand what they are doing is bad for them and/or others around them. If they shout and get angry and don't talk to us and continue to rebel we must do something both to let them understand it's wrong as well as let them know we still love them. That's the message of Christ. "You did wrong there needs to be punishment but I still love you let me help with this problem." However, if the child still pushes you away what can you do? You can't force them into a loving relationship with you. You can only hope that one day the return to you and say "I'm sorry". You can't force people to accept you love or to accept being in a relationship with you. My idea of hell is you get what you wanted - no God. That's torture enough - Eternity without the loving relationship with your ultimate parent because you were too proud to turn to Him. BTW this one analogy is a little flawed because as I said he doesn't really call us his children. He call us his creation that he loves so much he's will to offer adoption into his family. Thus the idea of hell for your children is not really valid as God doesn't call us that till we accept him. The he says nothing can separate us from his love... after we accept his love and become adopted.

Anyhow, all logic can be refuted by another one, so if you choose to disbelieve that’s ok... I can't and wouldn't force you to.

PS no need to apologize- I'm in asia so my time zone is ver ydifferent so my replies often are not timely either.

Whaaaaaaaaat? Says who? God abides by no rules. If God has rules to follow then it stands to reason that there is someone looking over HIS/HER shoulder. Who might that be? And why aren't we worshipping that which creates rules for God to exist by?

No it doesnt. It simply means there are laws that are fundamental to the universe and not necessarily created by anyone (though they might be created by God but are unbreakable, its impossible to tell).

Umm the one difficulty in this theory about God's love for us is that we are his children and thus loves us in that manner. Many people have different beliefs on this subject but a critical look at the bible never calls us his children till we become "adopted" into his family. So his love for us would be as a creator to a created being. Perhaps that helps a little more with the wrath end of things but that’s really a minor point here.

The major issue is the acceptance of the love He has for humanity which brings salvation. I understand your issue. Think of it in this way. If I offer to become your father and adopt you because of my love for you, you can choose to accept it or not. You lack of acceptance doesn't change my love for you but it does change your circumstance. This is the core concept of the Bible. God's love for us is such that He gives us freedom to choose but that freedom unfortunately separates some from him.

The other major issue not touched on is - why is reconciliation needed?

The problem is we are rebellious creations and therefore we damn ourselves. I could use some analogies here but so often the analogy becomes the source of the argument. So God is just looking for mankind to say I'm sorry.

One analogy - As parents we discipline our children till they understand the wrong and then can have their relationship with us restored to normal. The parent never stops loving the child but we must enact certain measures to let them understand what they are doing is bad for them and/or others around them. If they shout and get angry and don't talk to us and continue to rebel we must do something both to let them understand it's wrong as well as let them know we still love them. That's the message of Christ. "You did wrong there needs to be punishment but I still love you let me help with this problem." However, if the child still pushes you away what can you do? You can't force them into a loving relationship with you. You can only hope that one day the return to you and say "I'm sorry". You can't force people to accept you love or to accept being in a relationship with you. My idea of hell is you get what you wanted - no God. That's torture enough - Eternity without the loving relationship with your ultimate parent because you were too proud to turn to Him. BTW this one analogy is a little flawed because as I said he doesn't really call us his children. He call us his creation that he loves so much he's will to offer adoption into his family. Thus the idea of hell for your children is not really valid as God doesn't call us that till we accept him. The he says nothing can separate us from his love... after we accept his love and become adopted.

Anyhow, all logic can be refuted by another one, so if you choose to disbelieve that’s ok... I can't and wouldn't force you to.

PS no need to apologize- I'm in asia so my time zone is ver ydifferent so my replies often are not timely either.
Ok. I don't believe in God's "adopted" family. I was never a foster child. God did not "adopt" me. It's not like I'm a martian but God said, "OH look how cute it is, I want to take it in and cuddle it, keep it safe and happy." I am an emanation of his creation!
As far as telling God "I'm sorry," for what? Eve? I have a particular problem with people telling me that I am in some way undeserving of God's love because of the original female archetype biting an apple. I didn't eat the apple. I wasn't tempted by a snake. Snakes skeeve me out. I would never listen to one. So to try to understand some man telling me that I have to be subservient to men, that I am a LESSER FORM OF HUMAN because someone ate an apple (pomegranate, by the way ... apples aren't indiginous to the area Biblical scholars place the Garden of Eden; just one of the many mistranslations scripture had undertaken in the last 5,000 years) really insults my intelligence.
As for reconciliation, I don't believe it is needed. I'm not on a mission to be reunited with my Creator. We've never left each other. Every breath I take is a testament to the existance of the divine within me. Every thought, every word, every deed.
See, our arguement doesn't lie in the fact that I am some unbelieving, unfaithfiul, unworthy soul. Our argument lies in what we believe to be the essesence of God. I'm not trying to disprove God. I'm just trying to refocus some peoples' perception of God. You are striving to become reunited with your Creator. You strugggle with the pain of separation. I don't have that problem. There is and never was a separation. I live with the joy of knowing that I am God's creation and that is a part of me always. He didn't make me and then dissipate up into the clouds to see what I would do; if I would worship him or not, join the proper church and thith(sp?) appropriately. My creator has never left me.
I disagree with you that the notion that to choose God or turn away from him is the core concept of the Bible. I recollect the story of Hillel the Elder. He was a devout scholar of the Torah a few generations before Jesus. It was said that one day a man came to him and said that he would consider converting if Hillel would teach him the entirely of the Torah (that's the Old Testament, for those who are unaware) while standing on one foot. According to the story, Hillel raised one foot from the ground and said to the man, "What is hateful to you, do not unto your neighbor; this is the entirety of the Torah. All the rest is commentary. Go study!"
This before Jesus was even born. Imagine that. And wasn't that Jesus' greatest commandment, "love one another?" and yet most of what I see of Christianity these days is intolerance, segregation and elitism. Shame, shame, shame!

No it doesnt. It simply means there are laws that are fundamental to the universe and not necessarily created by anyone (though they might be created by God but are unbreakable, its impossible to tell).
"Impossible to tell?" That smells like agnosticism to me.
I agree, there are laws fundamental to the universe. It's called physics. Quantum theory (which is a branch of physics, for those who are unaware) are coming up with ever-increasing proofs that basically can prove the existance of a creator. Unfortunately, it's not the kind of creator that fundamentalist Christians believe in. How sad that humankind is on the verge of proving the existance of God, but it is the theological idealogues who profess to know God intimately, who are refuting this theory and more or less calling it "the Devil's work."

"Impossible to tell?" That smells like agnosticism to me.

Not at all. I am Christian and am quite certain God exists. But that doesnt mean I know every little detail about him and about how the universe functions. In fact, no one knows every detail. Whether the fundamental laws of the universe were laws that God created and abides by or whether they have simply always been there is impossible to tell. Admitting such has nothing to do with agnosticism.


I agree, there are laws fundamental to the universe. It's called physics. Quantum theory (which is a branch of physics, for those who are unaware) are coming up with ever-increasing proofs that basically can prove the existance of a creator. Unfortunately, it's not the kind of creator that fundamentalist Christians believe in. How sad that humankind is on the verge of proving the existance of God, but it is the theological idealogues who profess to know God intimately, who are refuting this theory and more or less calling it "the Devil's work."

I have never heard of any religious group reffering to Quantum physics as "the Devil's work". Could you point me to some examples of this? or did you simply make that up?

Not at all. I am Christian and am quite certain God exists. But that doesnt mean I know every little detail about him and about how the universe functions. In fact, no one knows every detail.
I am most likely christian-like and am absolutely certain God exists. Of course you don't know every detail, nor do I or anyone for that matter. On this we agree.
Whether the fundamental laws of the universe were laws that God created and abides by or whether they have simply always been there is impossible to tell. Admitting such has nothing to do with agnosticism.
But don't you see, it actually has everything to do with it. You admit to believing that there are "fundamental laws of the universe" but you aren't sure whether said laws were created by God or if they existed before him. Hello? Such a thought is completely contradictory to Christian doctrine. (And all of of Monotheistic/Judeo-Christian thought for that matter. There is either a supreme creator, of which NOTHING comes before, or there is not). You can't say that there is a supreme God, but there might have been a few forces in place PRIOR to that God's existance. Well, actually, you can, but then we're not talking about Christianity anymore. That God would no longer be "supreme". What's happening here is we're basically betting on the same horse, we just don't agree on the whole win, place or show thing.

[/QUOTE=LazyHippies]
I have never heard of any religious group reffering to Quantum physics as "the Devil's work". Could you point me to some examples of this? or did you simply make that up?[/QUOTE]
No, if you read that properly, you can see I am paraphrasing. Perhaps my use of quotation marks was misleading. It has been my experience that serious fundamentalists refute scientists as advocates of the devil. I cannot point to any modern sources, as they have all been personal experiences. However a few historical references include Galileo and Copernicus.
My point is that again: there are religious zealots out there who are undermining scientific proof of god because they simply refute all science that doesn't adhere to thier particular plan.

No it doesnt. It simply means there are laws that are fundamental to the universe and not necessarily created by anyone (though they might be created by God but are unbreakable, its impossible to tell).

But if God makes the rules unbreakable, and he can't break them, doesn't he stop being omnipotent? Can God make a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

But if God makes the rules unbreakable, and he can't break them, doesn't he stop being omnipotent? Can God make a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

You are asking this in a forum where a lengthy debate occurred as to whether God has a penis or not? :)

You are asking this in a forum where a lengthy debate occurred as to whether God has a penis or not? :)

I can dream can't I?

But don't you see, it actually has everything to do with it. You admit to believing that there are "fundamental laws of the universe" but you aren't sure whether said laws were created by God or if they existed before him. Hello? Such a thought is completely contradictory to Christian doctrine. (And all of of Monotheistic/Judeo-Christian thought for that matter.

There is either a supreme creator, of which NOTHING comes before, or there is not). You can't say that there is a supreme God, but there might have been a few forces in place PRIOR to that God's existance. Well, actually, you can, but then we're not talking about Christianity anymore. That God would no longer be "supreme". What's happening here is we're basically betting on the same horse, we just don't agree on the whole win, place or show thing.



No, not at all. Christianity is concerned with God as the creator of the universe, this has nothing to do with whether there are other forces, which there obviously are. For example, the way in which blood is necessary to atone for sin. Either God created that law or there is a fundamental law beyond our understanding that says such. We cant know for sure because the bible does not say, and this has no bearing on whether you are a Christian or not, Christianity has never taken a stance on such issues. Christianity is basically concerned with the creation of our universe, it does not give the details of the other forces except when we need to know such in order to exist in our universe.
surly, you can see I am paraphrasing. Perhaps my use of quotation marks was misleading. It has been my experience that serious fundamentalists refute scientists as advocates of the devil. I cannot point to any modern sources, as they have all been personal experiences.


You cannot point to any modern sources yet you claimed that this is what fundamentalists teach. You also claim to believe in science yet you take useless, unrepresentative convenience samples based only on personal experience and try to apply the findings of that sample to the whole of fundamentalists Christians, what kind of science is that?


However a few historical references include Galileo and Copernicus.
My point is that again: there are religious zealots out there who are undermining scientific proof of god because they simply refute all science that doesn't adhere to thier particular plan.

Galileo died in 1642 and Copernicus in 1543 yet quantum physics began being developed in 1859, fully 217 years after the death of the most recent of these examples you presented.

Let us review your claim again
Quantum theory (which is a branch of physics, for those who are unaware) are coming up with ever-increasing proofs that basically can prove the existance of a creator. Unfortunately, it's not the kind of creator that fundamentalist Christians believe in. How sad that humankind is on the verge of proving the existance of God, but it is the theological idealogues who profess to know God intimately, who are refuting this theory and more or less calling it "the Devil's work."

Your claim is summarized as follows. Quantum theory (a branch of physics) is proving the existance of God, but since the God it points to is different from the biblical God, fundamentalist Christians are refuting Quantum theory in a way that amounts to calling it "the Devil's work".

In order to prove your statement, you point to a few people you allege to have spoken to (which even if it is true is a useless covenience sample that represents nothing), and two scientists who died 217 or more years before Quantum Theory was conceived of.

No, not at all. Christianity is concerned with God as the creator of the universe, this has nothing to do with whether there are other forces, which there obviously are. For example, the way in which blood is necessary to atone for sin. Either God created that law or there is a fundamental law beyond our understanding that says such. We cant know for sure because the bible does not say, and this has no bearing on whether you are a Christian or not, Christianity has never taken a stance on such issues. Christianity is basically concerned with the creation of our universe, it does not give the details of the other forces except when we need to know such in order to exist in our universe.

First line of the Apostles' Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth

God is almighty, ergo he can do anything and is not bound by any rules.

First line of the Apostles' Creed:



God is almighty, ergo he can do anything and is not bound by any rules.

There are several problems with that argument, but Ill skip a long dicertation by just pointing out the most obvious problem. The apostles creed does not appear in the bible.

Religion is Bullshit.

If there was an Almighty, Infinite Father, why the hell doesn't he watch over his own innocents? I just wrote a very heated post on a pedophile/rape thread, so this is on my mind, but really- why doesn't he protect them? us? me?

I'm athiest. I didn't turn my back on god, he turned his back on me.

And Christians today will believe anything about themselves that makes them feel special, too. They feel so special because they've commited to god. Well, it was special, back when Christianity was a fledgling religion. It was the ultimate commitment. You could be killed for it. You still can in some places. But now in America it's safer to be X-ian than not. Hell, you're just barely X-ians anyway. You got to church on Christmas and Easter. Woo!

It's unsafe not to be a X-ian today. Believe me, I know. I've been condemned to hell as a fifth grader, called the Anti-Christ last year, and been forced to sing religious songs in school because I was the only athiest or agnostic in the room, and special exceptions can't be made for lack of religion, but the girl behind doesn't sing because her religion doesn't want her to sing religious songs with instrument accompaniment. How fair is that?

And have you religious freaks that hate gay people and hate non-conformists ever looked at your religion? Can you really name an element that you didn't borrow from something else? The cross was used in Aztec sacrificial worship long before Jesus was born. Your X-mas tree is pagan, and so are the gifts underneath it. You support re-incarnation without believing in it. Hell, gold, frankensence, and myrh aren't even yours, and neither is the manger story. Catholics & Co. are probably the worst. The Co. includes Lutherans, Baptists, and a couple others I probably missed. They're usually the least tolerant, and they have all of these damn saints so that companies can make cheap car charms for luck. WTF? Since when did you believe in symbols, luck, and charms?

So, in closing, if there is a god that created us, he must have created us purely for amusement, much like humans buy ant farms. Just to watch. Or maybe he's having some sort of chess game with the devil, and I happened to be a pawn that he sacrificed to save the queen. Whatever.

All I know is, I'll still celebrate your pagan Christmas. It may have the Jesus-dude's name in it, but at heart it's purely pagan.

Besides, I'm holding out for a Palm Pilot.

There are several problems with that argument, but Ill skip a long dicertation by just pointing out the most obvious problem. The apostles creed does not appear in the bible.

Do you know what the English rendering of El Shaddai, one of the names of God in the Pentatuch, is?

God Almighty.

My point still stands.

Besides, I'm holding out for a Palm Pilot.

Please realize that this line was to open your eyes. This is your childrens' mentality. I don't even want a Palm Pilot, but that isn't the point. I love this song:


When all that's worth dying for is already dead
An empty religion that you've learned to accept

When nothing means everything, a daily routine
you go through the motions like a helpless machine

Do you know what the English rendering of El Shaddai, one of the names of God in the Pentatuch, is?

God Almighty.

My point still stands.

Actually, according to both of the most trusted bible study tools (strong's and the blue letter bible), El Shaddai means "all sufficient one", "the supplier of all our needs", or the "more than enough" God. Here is the longer explenation from the blue letter bible:

El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Another word much like Shaddai, and from which many believe it derived, is shad meaning "breast" in Hebrew (some other scholars believe that the name is derived from an Akkadian word Šadu, meaning "mountain," suggesting strength and power). This refers to God completely nourishing, satisfying, and supplying His people with all their needs as a mother would her child. Connected with the word for God, El, this denotes a God who freely gives nourishment and blessing, He is our sustainer.

Religion is Bullshit.

If there was an Almighty, Infinite Father, why the hell doesn't he watch over his own innocents? I just wrote a very heated post on a pedophile/rape thread, so this is on my mind, but really- why doesn't he protect them? us? me?He gave us Free Will. We do what we want to do to each other. Blame Humanity on the messy state of the planet.

And Christians today will believe anything about themselves that makes them feel special, too. They feel so special because they've commited to god. Well, it was special, back when Christianity was a fledgling religion. It was the ultimate commitment. You could be killed for it. You still can in some places. But now in America it's safer to be X-ian than Hell, you're just barely X-ians anyway. You got to church on Christmas and Easter. Woo!Erm, right. Quite some sweeping generalisations there. I go to church every Sunday and Christmas, am I included in them?

How fair is that?It's not. But that's a fault with the education system and over-political correctness, rather then the religions.

And have you religious freaks that hate gay people and hate non-conformists ever looked at your religion?Christians out there who "hate" homosexuals and other non-conformists are not Christians I want to be associated with; Hating is not a Christian concept, and runs totally against Jesus' Great Commandments (Love God, Love Neighbour). Anyone hating others has issues to sort out. We may not agree with homosexuality or whatever, but that is no excuse for the actions that some have done in His name. But they're topics worthy of their own threads.

Can you really name an element that you didn't borrow from something else? The cross was used in Aztec sacrificial worship long before Jesus was born. Your X-mas tree is pagan, and so are the gifts underneath it. You support re-incarnation without believing in it. Hell, gold, frankensence, and myrh aren't even yours, and neither is the manger story.Why is all this important? No, crucifixion wasn't created solely to kill Jesus, what's your point? And yes, the Christmas tree wasn't going to have been around then; I think they're Danish in origin? But this is hardly relevant. How can Christianity be blamed for the commercialisation that's happened to the festival? (I'm aware of the Winter Solstice...) And what exactly are you on about with the gold, frankincense and myrhh not "being ours"? And the manger?

Catholics & Co. are probably the worst. The Co. includes Lutherans, Baptists, and a couple others I probably missed. They're usually the least tolerant, and they have all of these damn saints so that companies can make cheap car charms for luck. WTF? Since when did you believe in symbols, luck, and charms?Worst at what? And you're right; good luck charms shouldn't be an aspect of a Christians' life. Saints tend to be Catholic. And tolerance goes back to a few paragraphs ago, with hating and all that.

All I know is, I'll still celebrate your pagan Christmas. It may have the Jesus-dude's name in it, but at heart it's purely pagan.

Besides, I'm holding out for a Palm Pilot.Pfft, aim higher then a Pilot; Zire 72 or E2 would be much more useful.

This question is answered in James chapter 2. You are saved by faith but works are evidence of your faith. If you are really a Christian then you have a relationship with God and the holy spirit living in you, your life will reflect that. It is impossible to have a relationship with God that does not affect you in any way. If a person continues to sin and does not repent for it, then you must ask the question, does that person really know Christ? the obvious answer is no. Its not that you have to be a good person, its that you will want to.

That would be great if every christian in the world were so kind and benevolent.
The truth is that they are not.
Not all of them.
Maybe not even half of them.

If knowing christ automatically made a person good, then it would be fine and dandy.

Trouble is, christians "sin" just as much as anyone else.

Most of them can simply "ask for forgiveness" and poof! absolution!

If a person needs God to live a good life, there was no hope for that person anyway.

If there was an Almighty, Infinite Father, why the hell doesn't he watch over his own innocents?

Ill start out with a question that I would like you to think about as you go through this. Would you consider a Lying, Stealing, Coveting Adulterer a good person?

So you are wondering why bad things happen to "good" people. Well, what qualifies someone as a good person. Since you are refering to "His own" we will go by the Ten Commandments. Lets start out with lying. Everyone has lied at one point in their life, whether it was a huge lie or a little white lie. That makes us Liars. Ever stolen? You will probably say no, but most people now a days have illegally downloaded music, which is stealing, or taken someones idea, or stolen answers from someone elses homework or test in school. That makes us stealers. Ever wanted something that someone else had? Thats called coveting, its another sin. So we are all coveters. Ever committed adultry? Oh, you say no because you arent married. Well, Jesus says that if you think lustfully about someone then you have committed adultry in your own heart. So Im pretty sure you have thought about someone lustfully. That makes us adulterers. So in total now, we are all Lying, Stealing, Coveting Adulterers. Hmmm, sounds like a not so good person to me. Bad things dont happen to good people because there are no good people. Its as simple as that.

Onto another point, I would like to point out that all Christians are not Catholics. People keeps saying stuff about how the Catholics do whatever and so the Christians do that. There is a very large difference between Catholics and Protestant Christians and I do not like being ridiculed for something I am not a part of. So If you are criticizing Catholics, dont encompass all Christians.

And to answer the original question. Once you accept Christ and "Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead" you are saved. Nothing can take that salvation away. You do not have to confess your sins to a priest every week to be saved. There is no where in the Bible that says you have to go to a priest and confess your sins on a regular basis to be saved. Once you are saved, you are saved no matter what. Jesus died on the cross to take that sin away from us so we could join God in his presence, free from sin. Yes, we still sin, but because of Jesus' sacrifice, he remembers it no more. One thing I suggest is reading your Bible on a daily basis. Many denominations, not just Catholics, sometimes teach things that are not based on the Bible. If you are reading the Bible and praying that God will give you wisdom to interpret the word that way he wants, then you will learn a lot more than you ever could. Once someone saves your life, they do not keep returning to ask for payment so you can stay saved. You are saved and that is it. Jesus came to save what was lost. We were lost and he saved us. Now he just wants us to love him and have a relationship with him in return.

That would be great if every christian in the world were so kind and benevolent.
The truth is that they are not.
Not all of them.
Maybe not even half of them.

If knowing christ automatically made a person good, then it would be fine and dandy.

Trouble is, christians "sin" just as much as anyone else.

Most of them can simply "ask for forgiveness" and poof! absolution!

If a person needs God to live a good life, there was no hope for that person anyway.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..."

I suppose that means that there's no hope for anyone without God. That's the whole point. We need God.

But to your other points: True, it would be much better if Christians were capable of being impervious to sin and temptation. However, as much of a new creation as we are, we are still human. The only difference between Christians and non-Christians is the fact that one group has accepted God's sacrifice and blood-covering for them. Christians will stumble just like everyone else. However, should Christ be with them, they would be repentant of their actions. If not, there's a serious problem with their spirituality.

I would be surprised to find that anywhere near 50% of "Christians" were Christian.

Seconding Edd:

Free Will, check
All generalizations are bad, check
Fairness, check
Hate, check
More generalizations, check
And I don't know anything about Palm Pilot thingies.

I would like to elaborate on Gold, Frank, and Myrrh, etc. Those three were gifts from the East; they were given to God by people who knew nothing of Judaism. They only knew who Jesus was through prophecies. This in itself is a testimony to God's ability to get the word out.

Additionally, Tradition is not the same as faith. Just because the Christmas tree came from another culture, doesn't mean that...well, anything. It just means that it was accepted into the (Danish?) culture at some point, and caught on with others.


About omnipotence: I don't know what the trouble is people have with paradoxes. It's a rather silly question to ask, "Can God make a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" This is a play on words. Nothing more. In my belief, God is omnipotent, and the only limit in place on him is his free will. Since he does not want to destroy the world with water doesn't mean he can't. It means that he doesn't want to, and knew from the time he made the promise that he would never want to. I mean, he's not even affected by time. Can he make himself subject to time? Yes...Jesus. Omnipotence is a lot like eternity. Kinda hard for a being who's life has been completely and totally dominated by time to understand it. Such is finity.

See, this is the biggest problem with Christianity. Listen ... we are not separate from our Creator. We don't need to gain his/her favor to be reunited. God is with us and in us always. How hard is that to understand?
Aye.

Well now, it seems I've finally caught up with this thread. I've said my piece/peace and now must let it rest in peace.
Go to God, little thread. Unto you I commend it's spirit.
JC Superstar fan :)

What you are discussing is Catholicism NOT Christianity! The Christianity statement is simple; Jesus paid your debt for your sins. Now it is up to us to live as purely as possible. We are NOT made to suffer for our past mistakes! Once in Heaven we are free of everything to do with this mortal life.
That's not a religion! That's a get-out-of-jail-free card.

If it was motivated by selfisness then it would not be a true conversion. If I were into it for selfish reasons then what would be the motivation for telling people about it or even telling others I am Christian? That would be silly. Opening up myself and my family to ridicule from small minded people! The motivation is to save as many as possible and make your peace with those who won't listen. Kinda sounds like the situation over the past week in New Orleans, eh?! Some people you just can't save without force though that doesn't work in spiritual matters!
The situation in New Orleans is a result of opening up the jails for prisoners to escape. Do you really want to be comparing Christianity to that? Do you really want to be saying that the decent folk caught up alongside the criminal element are not open to being saved?