Is this rape? [Archive]

Cotton candii

15-09-2005, 02:56

you are back, and with a fitting topic.

the first post is confusing to say the least.it does not involve rape. rape is a forced sex act, and you are saying that the person thinks the other is one sex, they turn out to be the opposite sex, but they have SEX anyways. sex is a consenting act, so i think i am correct in saying that the surprised partner was not upset by the appearance of a penis under the skirt, or the lack of one behind the jeans, so to speak.

Takuma

15-09-2005, 02:56

Sweet! I got the first Unsure/Don't care/Other post! ^.^

I really don't care: I don't go sleeping around anyways...

Weird Pilgrims

15-09-2005, 02:56

I wouldn't call it rape...the person is just being dishonest. but why would you sleep with someone if you don't know their gender? I mean really.

NEO-NAZIS SKINHEADS

15-09-2005, 02:57

Maybe it does,t met the legal term for rape, but it is still rape all the same, it would make the person that had had sex with them go though all the emotions and stages of a rape victim.

Dagnia

15-09-2005, 02:58

Wouldn't that be male fraud?

Vegas-Rex

15-09-2005, 03:01

It depends what sort of sexual experience the person wanted. If the person wanted missionary position but got the receiving end of anal sex, then yes I would consider that rape. If someone wants oral and gets it, it isn't rape.

Takuma

15-09-2005, 03:04

Wouldn't that be male fraud?
Ba-dump-ching!

Phylum Chordata

15-09-2005, 03:05

Is it rape for a married person to have sex with another person without informing said other of the fact that they are married?

Phasa

15-09-2005, 03:09

No, it is not rape. One cannot define as rape the act of having sex with someone who turns out to be other than you thought they were. We would pretty much all end up rapists by that standard, because very rarely do people turn out to be what you thought they were. Certainly it might be an unpleasant shock (also known as "pantyhose surprise") just as it might be to find out the hard way that the person you took home is into scat. Not rape, just unwelcome.

Sdaeriji

15-09-2005, 03:10

No, it is not rape. One cannot define as rape the act of having sex with someone who turns out to be other than you thought they were. We would pretty much all end up rapists by that standard, because very rarely are do people turn out to be what you thought they were. Certainly it might be an unpleasant shock (also known as "pantyhose surprise") just as it might be to find out the hard way that the person you took home is into scat. Not rape, just unwelcome.

Exactly. Everyone lies to get in bed.

Vegas-Rex

15-09-2005, 03:14

No, it is not rape. One cannot define as rape the act of having sex with someone who turns out to be other than you thought they were. We would pretty much all end up rapists by that standard, because very rarely are do people turn out to be what you thought they were. Certainly it might be an unpleasant shock (also known as "pantyhose surprise") just as it might be to find out the hard way that the person you took home is into scat. Not rape, just unwelcome.

The way I see it while lying to get sex isn't rape, having sex in a manner the other person is unwilling to have is, whether or not the person was willing to have sex in general.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 03:23

the first post is confusing to say the least.it does not involve rape. rape is a forced sex act, and you are saying that the person thinks the other is one sex, they turn out to be the opposite sex, but they have SEX anyways. sex is a consenting act...Well this Girl slept with my Friend...she told him she had 16...

turned out she had 15...

She did not Force him to have sex...But she lied to him and his parents were so scared that they sent him to finish College to Canada...all his world...friends and Family were now in another country...He felt raped.

Eutrusca

15-09-2005, 03:26

Charlen

15-09-2005, 03:28

This was inspired by something from another thread (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9640150&postcount=96).

Is it rape for a transgendered person to have sex with another person without informing said other of the fact that they are trangendered?

While it was consented sex, it's still rape as the person consented to have sex with someone who was assumed to have been born as that sex, not to have sex with someone who had a sex change. While it's none of your neighbors or co-workers business whether or not you're the same sex you were born as if you have sex with someone they certainly deserve to know.

Homovox

15-09-2005, 03:29

5 people have voted yes without making an argument.

and what about biological females who wear massively padded bras and elastic to hold in all their fat? it's false advertising, but i can't see how it could possibly be construed as rape.

Baran-Duine

15-09-2005, 05:31

That's not rape at all, but it is certaintly deceit.
I agree

Zincite

15-09-2005, 05:37

Um, if the person was biologically male wouldn't the men have been able to tell BEFORE they started having sex? I mean, how can you "have a sexual encounter" without realizing that there is a penis present?

As far as "rape"? Not at all. They consented to have sex, and they consented to have sex with her. So she didn't tell them all of who she was. Regardless how they could have missed a big honking cylinder in her crotch, it's no different than if someone hides an affair or a previous sexual relationship or a fetish. Not very honorable, but it doesn't turn the sex into rape.

And really, I'm just going to think this is ridiculous until someone gives me a convincing reason how they could have NOT KNOWN.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 05:49

I'm pretty sure one should have the right to know the gender of the person they are sleeping with >.>

The gender is known, it is the biological sex that is unknown.

Um, if the person was biologically male wouldn't the men have been able to tell BEFORE they started having sex? I mean, how can you "have a sexual encounter" without realizing that there is a penis present?

All sexual encounters are not intercourse. She could have performed oral sex on them.

Americai

15-09-2005, 05:56

I would parallel such an act similar to statutory rape. Sure the kid may say yes, but they are at high risk of being in a mentality that is not suited for the act, or just not aware of the situation properly making it a volentary action, that is considered rape due to statutory law.

Thus, I would agree with it being statutory rape if the legislation did define it as rape. The elements are similar. The partner is NOT aware of the nature of the other partner because of dishonestly.

I mean, dishonesty might be done to bolster one's ability to have sex, but this is a whole different level for a LOT of people. I myself would feel violated in such a way I'd pursue legal action if put in the same situation.

Sildavya

15-09-2005, 05:57

That's not rape... But in america you could probably sue for something.

Phasa

15-09-2005, 05:58

how can you "have a sexual encounter" without realizing that there is a penis present?
Perhaps there was no penis present? Transgendered people sometimes have the chop. Depends whether she was pre-op or post-op. Either way though, it was a really stupid move on her part to try to deceive these guys, given how straight men tend to react in these situations.

Willamena

15-09-2005, 06:00

Is it rape for a transgendered person to have sex with another person without informing said other of the fact that they are trangendered?
Of course not, if it was consentual sex.

Rotovia-

15-09-2005, 06:08

No. Otherwise every guy out there telling a partner to be he loves her and every girl declaring her chastity is a rapist.

Flagg1209

15-09-2005, 06:26

I wouldn’t call it rape, but I think there should be some sort of civil action one should be able to seek. Not for much, maybe just a few thousand dollars. If there isn’t currently anything like that, there needs to be.
I don't want to sound like I'm US-bashing, I love the place, but why does everything in the US come down to how much money you can get? You might as well sue someone for not being as good in bed as you thought they would be!

Maybe it doesn't meet the legal term for rape, but it is still rape all the same, it would make the person that had had sex with them go though all the emotions and stages of a rape victim.
Have you been through the stages and emotions of a rape victim? I seriously doubt it. If you had, I doubt you would believe that for a second.

Personally, I think if you don't know, or can't tell, who cares, it most certainly is NOT rape. Rape is not about sex, rape is about violence.

So what if someone allows you to believe they are a woman when they used to be a man (whether post-op or pre-). If you find out later, you might feel a little cheated or even violated, but, after all, you still got laid - and probably enjoyed it at the time!

Pyrostan

15-09-2005, 06:29

In the strict definition of rape: "forcing someone to have sex with you unwillingly, usually in a physical way"--- no. Though they do have a right to know who you are.

Gauthier

15-09-2005, 06:31

Technically it might not be rape, but technically this falls in the same category as someone with AIDS or some other VD going about having unprotected sex without telling his or her partners.

Sildavya

15-09-2005, 06:32

Technically it might not be rape, but technically this falls in the same category as someone with AIDS or some other VD going about having unprotected sex without telling his or her partners.

Yeah, you might catch transexualitis from them!

[NS]The Liberated Ones

15-09-2005, 07:28

As an answer to the thread question:
It is definitely not 'rape'; both people did consent to the sex acts.

I personally don't think it's anyone's business if someone was born a different sex; however many people are very touchy about this subject so I think it would be sensible for any trans-girls to make sure that the boy they are sleeping with is not going to flip out after sex.

As to people who would feel 'raped' by the revelation: If you're not trying to impregnate her, why does it matter what chromosomes she has?

Technically it might not be rape, but technically this falls in the same category as someone with AIDS or some other VD going about having unprotected sex without telling his or her partners.How is not telling someone about having an unusual medical history in any way like exposing someone to death or sickness?

The Nazz

15-09-2005, 07:40

Technically it might not be rape, but technically this falls in the same category as someone with AIDS or some other VD going about having unprotected sex without telling his or her partners.
Huh?

Chellis

15-09-2005, 07:49

Seeing as statutory rape is considered rape, I could see this being rape. They are both cases of the victim not being informed enough to make an informed desicion ;)

The Nazz

15-09-2005, 07:53

Seeing as statutory rape is considered rape, I could see this being rape. They are both cases of the victim not being informed enough to make an informed desicion ;)
Umm..no. Far as I know, statutory rape has nothing to do with consent and everything to do with age--that's it, age. Each state has a bright line definition of an age of consent and sex with a person below that age of consent is de facto rape. Being informed has jack shit to do with it.

Forcible rape--which is the other kind--has to do with forcing another person to have sex with you. That obviously doesn't happen in this case either.

In short--it ain't rape, no matter how you try to define it.

Keruvalia

15-09-2005, 08:01

Is it rape for a transgendered person to have sex with another person without informing said other of the fact that they are trangendered?

Not only no ... but HELL NO!

Nature fucks up. Any rational thinking human being can see that. Jon Stewart said it best when talking to an Intelligent Design advocate: If the design was so intelligent, why does the most painful part of my body hang in a sack open to anyone who wants to come along and hit it with a baseball bat?

It's not even deceit. If a woman is born with a man's plumbing, then all she's doing with medical science is correcting nature's mistake. She was never a man to begin with, so she'd be telling a lie if she said she used to be a man. She was never a man. She was a woman born with the wrong hormone. It happens. Yet everyone expects her to go around with a tattoo on her forehead that reads "used to have a penis".

Considering the timing and delicate nature of the hormone that creates the male in the womb, I'm frankly surprised *anyone* is born male. It happens, though, and sometimes it happens wrong.

[/babbling]

Sorry ... this is a touchy subject with me.

[NS]The Liberated Ones

15-09-2005, 08:02

Seeing as statutory rape is considered rape, I could see this being rape. They are both cases of the victim not being informed enough to make an informed desicion ;)Not really. Statutory rape is about someone being incapable of giving consent.

The 15 year old who lies about her age isn't the statutory rapist; it's the 21 year old who bangs her who could end up in jail.

So in this case the transsexual who doesn't mention her former gender may be considered dishonest, but her partner is still a consenting adult.

FourX

15-09-2005, 09:14

Um, if the person was biologically male wouldn't the men have been able to tell BEFORE they started having sex? I mean, how can you "have a sexual encounter" without realizing that there is a penis present?

Regardless how they could have missed a big honking cylinder in her crotch,

And really, I'm just going to think this is ridiculous until someone gives me a convincing reason how they could have NOT KNOWN.
I'm surprised at how many people so far seem to have not understood what is involved with a sex change.

Some things to consider:
Transexual does not mean Transvestite
A Post-Op Male->Female transexual does not have a penis

Peisandros

15-09-2005, 09:32

Meh, it's reasonably obvious that it isn't rape, as has pointed out. Should be end of discussion pretty much.

Mekonia

15-09-2005, 09:36

Laerod

15-09-2005, 09:49

Rape? How? Are you being forced to do something against your will? Maybe being lied to, but not raped.

FourX

15-09-2005, 10:10

Of course we all know that anyone who lies to get laid is a rapist...

Callisdrun

15-09-2005, 10:11

It's not rape, as long as the sex acts were not forced. However, it is quite a nasty, dishonest and plain mean thing to do to someone.

Democras

15-09-2005, 10:15

She was never a man to begin with, so she'd be telling a lie if she said she used to be a man. She was never a man. She was a woman born with the wrong hormone.

That is under the assumption that certain behavior or ways of thinking are that of a male (masculine), and some are that of a female (feminine). That is the definition of sexism. Unless you are born a hermaphrodite, a difficult topic to discuss, a male is a male and a female is a female. How you think and behave has nothing to do with it.

Transexual does not mean Transvestite
While I am not aware of all the transgender procedures that exists, I do believe most male to female tranSEXUALs retain their penis while having breast implants. I assume this is because removing the shaft would be life threatening. I'm not sure if the majority undergo castration to remove their testes since it would mean the lack of sex drive.

Umm..no. Far as I know, statutory rape has nothing to do with consent and everything to do with age

In order to make such things into law, reasons must be provided. In this case the accepted reasoning is that underaged persons do not yet have the maturity to make an informed decision about having sex.

Statutory rape is not rape by its usual definition as it is added only by the legal system. While I agree similar logic should be applied, it is up to the nation or state to make their own laws for such a case based on their cultural beliefs.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 10:18

Umm..no. Far as I know, statutory rape has nothing to do with consent and everything to do with age--that's it, age.Well, the basic idea is that you're too young to consent, so it has to do with both.

Cabra West

15-09-2005, 10:28

While I am not aware of all the transgender procedures that exists, I do believe most male to female tranSEXUALs retain their penis while having breast implants. I assume this is because removing the shaft would be life threatening. I'm not sure if the majority undergo castration to remove their testes since it would mean the lack of sex drive.

No. Getting breat implants can be a stage of tranforming one's biological gender into one's mental gender, but the entire operation includes removing the penis and forming a clitoris and vagina. A transsexual who went through the whole process of gender transformation is outwardly indistinguishable from a "natural" woman.
Transforming the organs doesn't mean any loss of sex drive, either, as they won't be entirely removed but rather transformed.

Revans Fleet

15-09-2005, 10:28

It's not rape anymore than someone failing to disclose they have an STD before sex is rape.

Legless Pirates

15-09-2005, 10:45

It's not rape and as for the dishonesty: You would be sleeping with him/her with his/her current gender. Who cares about what he/she was in the past?

I don't think it's dishonest at all.

But on a side note: Would you sleep with him/her in the first place if you don't even know eachother that well?

Weird Isle

15-09-2005, 11:09

No. Getting breat implants can be a stage of tranforming one's biological gender into one's mental gender, but the entire operation includes removing the penis and forming a clitoris and vagina. A transsexual who went through the whole process of gender transformation is outwardly indistinguishable from a "natural" woman.
Transforming the organs doesn't mean any loss of sex drive, either, as they won't be entirely removed but rather transformed.

While I disapprove the term "mental gender", I thank you for that clarification.

You would be sleeping with him/her with his/her current gender. Who cares about what he/she was in the past?

There are two problems with what you have said.

1) A transgendered female is never a full female. As far as I know it is impossible for them to bear a child. Unless it is usual for you to sleep with someone who you have no remote possibility of intending to have a child with, this is a big problem.

2) I dont know where you're from, but I'm sure in most areas there exists a very significant population who do not feel comfortable around transexuals and believe that they are mentally unstable, whether because of their conservative beliefs or, in my case, believe that they underwent the procedure because of insecurity of their interests and behavior due to sexism that exists in his or her society - You are what you are, why change anything about you? (I myself am a perfectly straight male who likes cute gadgets and stuffed animals and babytalk to some people).

While not informing their partner that they are a transexual is not conventional rape, it still may be discused whether or not it is legal rape, just as underage sex is called "statutory rape" in legal terms. Laws must be set to accomodate the citizens' needs, and if significant population find it an issue then the law should make consideratiosn for them in some way.

Quasaglimoth

15-09-2005, 11:15

"It is exceedingly dishonest, but I don't believe it's the same as forcing yourself upon another person. People lie about themselves to get laid all the time."

bingo. it falls into the same category as someone who has had beast implants and a facelift. her breasts may look nice,but you cant call it rape when you find out they are fake. its closer to fraud and misrepresentation. just because you are a homophobe doesnt mean you get to call it rape when you find out she is really a he. take the burn and move on with your life. you can also inform all "her" friends and associates of her surgery without revealing your...mistake. make sure the community knows what she really is and how she lies about it so it doesnt happen to some other "straight" guy.....

Legless Pirates

15-09-2005, 11:22

There are two problems with what you have said.

1) A transgendered female is never a full female. As far as I know it is impossible for them to bear a child. Unless it is usual for you to sleep with someone who you have no remote possibility of intending to have a child with, this is a big problem.

2) I dont know where you're from, but I'm sure in most areas there exists a very significant population who do not feel comfortable around transexuals and believe that they are mentally unstable, whether because of their conservative beliefs or, in my case, believe that they underwent the procedure because of insecurity of their interests and behavior due to sexism that exists in his or her society - You are what you are, why change anything about you? (I myself am a perfectly straight male who likes cute gadgets and stuffed animals and babytalk to some people).

While not informing their partner that they are a transexual is not conventional rape, it still may be discused whether or not it is legal rape, just as underage sex is called "statutory rape" in legal terms. Laws must be set to accomodate the citizens' needs, and if significant population find it an issue then the law should make consideratiosn for them in some way.
1) There's always adoption. And if I was in a relationship with a transgendered person and she would not tell me she is a transgendered person, then I would have serious doubts about our relationship and if I even want children with a woman who cannot be open with me. She doesn't have to tell, but I would greatly value it in a relationship.

2) I agree for most part with the "You are who you are", but this is mainly because I have never experienced anything like it. Nor seen it in friends. But what I want for all people is to be happy. If that means getting transgender-surgery so be it.

The Squeaky Rat

15-09-2005, 11:25

Is it rape for a transgendered person to have sex with another person without informing said other of the fact that they are trangendered?

Depends to what the "victim" in question conceded to. If he conceded to have sex with another person - no. If he conceded to have sex with a non-transgendered woman - arguably, yes. He must show that the woman part was fundamental in his decision though - so fundamental that he asked.

Legless Pirates

15-09-2005, 11:26

Depends to what the "victim" in question conceded to. If he conceded to have sex with another person - no. If he conceded to have sex with a non-transgendered woman - arguably, yes. He must show that the woman part was fundamental in his decision though - so fundamental that he asked.
.... and that would make this question useless :p

The Squeaky Rat

15-09-2005, 11:28

.... and that would make this question useless :p
Not if she lied.

Legless Pirates

15-09-2005, 11:31

Not if she lied.
In that case it would be dishonest. Still not rape though. Unless the man in question would suddenly want out and she'd continue.

The Squeaky Rat

15-09-2005, 11:41

In that case it would be dishonest. Still not rape though.

Why not ? One can argue it invalidates the mans consent to have sex. Sex without consent = rape.

Sidenote: I am playing devils advocate here.

Democras

15-09-2005, 11:46

1) There's always adoption. And if I was in a relationship with a transgendered person and she would not tell me she is a transgendered person, then I would have serious doubts about our relationship and if I even want children with a woman who cannot be open with me. She doesn't have to tell, but I would greatly value it in a relationship
Adoption isn't the same thing for (what I believe) most people, especially if believe genetics have any remote significance to a person's existence. You can't fully feel that a part of you carries on after your death.

Legless Pirates

15-09-2005, 11:52

Why not ? One can argue it invalidates the mans consent to have sex. Sex without consent = rape.

Sidenote: I am playing devils advocate here.
hmmmmmmm.

Tough one.

(It great to do that sometimes)

Legless Pirates

15-09-2005, 11:53

Adoption isn't the same thing for (what I believe) most people, especially if believe genetics have any remote significance to a person's existence. You can't fully feel that a part of you carries on after your death.
Well if it's the only way to have kids (for instance if your SO is transgendered)...

Democras

15-09-2005, 12:02

But what I want for all people is to be happy. If that means getting transgender-surgery so be it.
I would have to argue that is lack of caring for that person if he/she is your friend. If you have reason to believe they are planning/undergoing the operation because they feel threatened that their interests and behaviors are deemed unfit for their gender, then undergoing the operation would never solve that insecurity. You should speak with them and help them to be proud of who they are. Any other reason for transgender (if exists) I guess would be an honest choice they make for themselves.

Well if it's the only way to have kids (for instance if your SO is transgendered)...
The possibility of having children is one of the common reasons for break-ups and divorces. Having their own genes passed on can be significant enough a matter for some people that it is offensive to them to find out late in their relationship that they are transexual, hence opening up the room to debate whether or not this may be considered as rape, for legal purposes similar to statutory rape.

Sanctius

15-09-2005, 12:09

No, not rape, not in the conventional sense, and I'd personally argue, in any legal sense either. You consent to acts or you do not consent to acts .. provided both individuals are of age, I see no legal issue at all.

Blisteringly bad mannered? quite possibly :). Liable to cause a fair amount of feelings of hurt and revulsion if someone has been foolish enough to have sex with the 'wrong sort of person' (considering their personal status) and they later find out? even more possibly :).

But unless you're going to give an arrangement to have sexual relations, or even to enter into a romantic relationship (not marriage) the status of a legal contract, and allow me to prosecute someone for lying to me about their Age, Income, Past Sexual History, Personal habits, Political views, or any other fact that may make me wish I'd never taken them to bed in the first place ...

No, not rape. I don't see why this one should be a special case.

Revasser

15-09-2005, 12:10

Hmmm. Is is rape? Absolutely not. Perhaps mildly dishonest by omission. But frankly, if you're so horrified by the idea of sleeping with somone who was once of the other sex, and you don't ask the person about it before you sleep with them, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Dakini

15-09-2005, 12:11

It isn't rape, they weren't forced into it.

I'm also not sure how dishonest it is, whenever I see a transsexual writing about their experience of being a transsexual, they tend to say that they felt they were the opposite gender they were born into. I'm also pretty sure that disections of brains have shown that parts of their brains are the same as those of opposite birth gender. So in a way, they were always the opposite gender from what they were born as, just not on the outside.

Democras

15-09-2005, 12:11

Dakini

15-09-2005, 12:13

If a person disguised under detailed mask and gave you a false name sleeps with you, would u have called it rape?
Is it consentual? Then no.

To go further, if a stranger disguised as someone you know had sex with you, would you have feel raped?
I case could certainly be argued, though I'd be surprised that you wouldn't be able to tell it wasn't them. With the exception of shape-shifters... but we don't have mutants in real life so there goes that one.

Cabra West

15-09-2005, 12:13

Legless Pirates

15-09-2005, 12:17

If you have reason to believe they are planning/undergoing the operation because they feel threatened that their interests and behaviors are deemed unfit for their gender, then undergoing the operation would never solve that insecurity.
I think it's more complicated than that.
The possibility of having children is one of the common reasons for break-ups and divorces. Having their own genes passed on can be significant enough a matter for some people that it is offensive to them to find out late in their relationship that they are transexual, hence opening up the room to debate whether or not this may be considered as rape, for legal purposes similar to statutory rape.
of course a lot of people would want kids of their own at first, but the love of a parent for his/her adopted child (and vice versa) does not have to be less.

And why go to the extreme and start calling it rape? If you don't like transgendered people (like how some for instance don't like black people and some skinny people) then don't date them. If Hitler had sex with Michael Jackson would he call "rape" when he found out Michael is actually black?

Dakini

15-09-2005, 12:24

Sanctius

15-09-2005, 12:34

Democras said : stuff

If a person disgused themselves as a person (a know and named human being) who they knew I had consented to having sex with before / was more likely to, for purposes of obtaining sex, I might well feel raped, yes. I might even make a case for it in court (though I'm not sure it'd work in this country).

If a person had simply distorted their identity and were one person I didn't know from adam rather than another, not really, I'd just be rather offended/disgusted. Much as I imagine someone who had issues being in any way intimate with a transgendered person might be, if they discovered they had been.

It all comes down to the type of deception and the relative value you place on that truth/falsehood I suppose .. I would argue that Identity, in this case, is more fundamental than Gender in said list of values.

Berowalt

15-09-2005, 12:48

1) A transgendered female is never a full female. As far as I know it is impossible for them to bear a child. Unless it is usual for you to sleep with someone who you have no remote possibility of intending to have a child with, this is a big problem.
I can't have kids anymore, and I assure you I'm a full female. My sister's never borne children and likely never will, and she's a full female. The ability to bear children - or even the existance of a uterus, ovaries, or a vagina is not the measure of what makes anyone a female. Some women are born without those parts. It's been suggested that Queen Elizabeth I may have been (and if I could recall the actual medical name for the condition, I'd be a happy woman).
I am raising two biological children and one adopted child - and there is NO difference in the love I bear them. If I'm going to be immortalized, there's far more meaningful ways to bring that about than simply transmitting my genes.
People sleep with people they have no intention of having children with all the time - deciding to breed is a far different issue than deciding to have sex.

As for is it rape - not in any sense. Whether a penis was present or not, it was consensual. Feeling used and lied to (even enough to commit a horrendous murder over it) is a vastly different feeling from recovering from a rape.

Greeen Havens

15-09-2005, 12:59

Another NO vote here.

No, it is not rape. and while the guy who had SEX with a post-op male to female person would feel seriously wierded out/grossed out, etc.

it AINT rape.

I find the charges of 'dishonest behaviour' a bit 'off' too. If asked and LIED about, yes, dishonest, if not disclosed, different ballgame. Cavet, Lying about one's reproductive capacity OR medical state of health (i.e. STD or AIDS status is a different matter)

What noone has brought up, was, if the guy was sooo concerned about having sex with only born-females (and wants to remain simon-pure), then what the bleep is HE doing, sleeping around?

Sounds to this female that the first guy wants the fun of sex, without the responsibility of sex. And if he ain't ready for the second, mayhap he should forgo the first.....

The Nazz

15-09-2005, 13:26

There are two problems with what you have said.

1) A transgendered female is never a full female. As far as I know it is impossible for them to bear a child. Unless it is usual for you to sleep with someone who you have no remote possibility of intending to have a child with, this is a big problem.By this definition, any sterile female is not a full female. I'm sure you can see how a large number of women might find that offensive. By tying up one's reproductive capability with one's sexual identity, you're also effectively saying that any man who has had a vasectomy is no longer a full male. Let me say that I take great offense at that statement.

2) I dont know where you're from, but I'm sure in most areas there exists a very significant population who do not feel comfortable around transexuals and believe that they are mentally unstable, whether because of their conservative beliefs or, in my case, believe that they underwent the procedure because of insecurity of their interests and behavior due to sexism that exists in his or her society - You are what you are, why change anything about you? (I myself am a perfectly straight male who likes cute gadgets and stuffed animals and babytalk to some people). Your comfort level is irrelevant to a transsexual's mental state, and the second half of your statement is very short-sighted. People try to change themselves all the time--perhaps not as radically as by getting a sex-change operation, but what is dieting if not an attempt to change one's self? Plastic surgery? A makeover? Music lessons, for crying out loud? People try to change themselves because they are dissatisfied with who they are--it's a peculiarly human trait, but it is definitely a human one.

While not informing their partner that they are a transexual is not conventional rape, it still may be discused whether or not it is legal rape, just as underage sex is called "statutory rape" in legal terms. Laws must be set to accomodate the citizens' needs, and if significant population find it an issue then the law should make consideratiosn for them in some way.
You can make laws requiring disclosure if you wish, but you can't call it rape, because it in no way comes near the definition.

Lusitaniah

15-09-2005, 13:38

It is as much rape as telling a girl you are rich just to lay her.

Drunk commies deleted

15-09-2005, 14:58

But would you classify it as rape, or something else?
Something else. It should be a crime, but I don't think we have a law on the books banning it yet.

Sildavya

15-09-2005, 15:16

There was a rape-case in court once (it was called "the bald guy case")... It is now used as an example in classes for law-students to illustrate how complex the law can be. The guy wasn't found guilty of rape, but he did have to pay some damages for trauma.

It went like this:
A guy was out drinking. He returns home extremely drunk. He stumbles around in the darkness and into his bedroom. To his surprise there is a woman in his bed, and she starts making love to him...
He had gone into the wrong house and gotten into the wrong bed, the woman in the bed thought it was her husband, which has also been out drinking. In the middle of them having sex she touched his head and felt that it was bald, which her husbands head wasn't and realizes that this man isn't her husband. She told him to stop and he did... Then she pressed charges for rape.

Jah Bootie

15-09-2005, 15:24

Kanabia

15-09-2005, 15:36

I don't think so. Not in the classic sense, anyway...but considering that consent hasn't been given, I can see why it might be seen as such.

Sydenzia

15-09-2005, 15:46

Jah Bootie

15-09-2005, 15:52

It's a pretty crappy thing to do, but it's nothing like rape.

Let's put it this way, if I had sex with a transexual without knowing, I would be pretty upset, but one day years down the road I could laugh about it with my friends, even if it were grudgingly. I don't think I would have any yuks about being raped.

Not everything that is wrong is, or should be, a crime. I think this is one of those.

Jah Bootie

15-09-2005, 15:56

My opinion on the matter is as such:

Rape is sex without consent.

If the consent is given based on a principle knowingly falsified by the other person, with the intent of getting sex, then yes -- it's rape. Forget legal. Laws are just our attempt to create order. Morally, it's rape.

The basis for my determining it as rape is that consent requires an appropriate level of knowledge and understanding relevant to the situation at hand; hence why we have statutory rape laws, and why children cannot form legally binding contracts without parental consent.

If a person cannot be reasonably expected to understand what they are consenting to - sex with a human being who is not the gender they express themselves to be - then they cannot give consent to have sex with that person, assuming gender is the basis of their decision.

My two cents.
I would say you are radically redefining rape here. If you haven't known someone long enough to know that they used to be a member of the opposite sex, then there are a lot of things you probably don't know about them.

And if a girl tells me she's on birth control when she's not, have I been raped? That statement certainly does change things, after all?

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend trying to explain to a rape victim how a drunk guy who slept with a transexual suffered the same crime as they did. They might not be so open-minded to it.

Sydenzia

15-09-2005, 16:00

I would say you are radically redefining rape here. If you haven't known someone long enough to know that they used to be a member of the opposite sex, then there are a lot of things you probably don't know about them.

And if a girl tells me she's on birth control when she's not, have I been raped? That statement certainly does change things, after all?

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend trying to explain to a rape victim how a drunk guy who slept with a transexual suffered the same crime as they did. They might not be so open-minded to it.There's lots of additional modifiers you can apply with a bit of common sense. Here's some questions to ask yourself:

Was your basis for sleeping with the woman that she was using birth control?
Would you feel emotionally or physically violated if you had know she wasn't?
Would you say she could reasonably expect you would feel this way?
Would you say she could reasonably know, and knowingly lied anyways?

And finally:

Does the lie cause you to do something which inherently violates your morals and principles?

Example (non-rape):

I bake a cake, and advertise it as being 100% carrot cake. Completely organic ingredients. Some poor vegan comes along and buys said cake, proceeds to eat it.

I then reveal that it's actually a human corpse made into a cake.

I may have only lied to them, but I have subverted their right to consent to what they put into their bodies by providing knowingly false and misleading information; I have done something which will arguably cause significant emotional distress; and I have put them in a position by which what they consented to - eating carrot cake - was not actually what they experienced.

So, yeah. I stand by rape.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 16:06

Umm..no. Far as I know, statutory rape has nothing to do with consent and everything to do with age--that's it, age. Each state has a bright line definition of an age of consent and sex with a person below that age of consent is de facto rape. Being informed has jack shit to do with it.

Forcible rape--which is the other kind--has to do with forcing another person to have sex with you. That obviously doesn't happen in this case either.

In short--it ain't rape, no matter how you try to define it.
...
Being informed has NOT Jack shit to do with it...In some virtual-Rape...or pseudo-rape situations...

Other key information is "where".

the first post is confusing to say the least.it does not involve rape. rape is a forced sex act, and you are saying that the person thinks the other is one sex, they turn out to be the opposite sex, but they have SEX anyways. sex is a consenting act...Well... this Girl slept with my Friend...she told him she had 16...

turned out she had 15...

She did not Force him to have sex...But she lied to him and my Friends's parents were so scared that they sent him to finish College to Canada...all his world...friends and Family were now in another country...He felt raped.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 16:08

My opinion on the matter is as such:

Rape is sex without consent.

If the consent is given based on a principle knowingly falsified by the other person, with the intent of getting sex, then yes -- it's rape. Forget legal. Laws are just our attempt to create order. Morally, it's rape.

The basis for my determining it as rape is that consent requires an appropriate level of knowledge and understanding relevant to the situation at hand; hence why we have statutory rape laws, and why children cannot form legally binding contracts without parental consent.

If a person cannot be reasonably expected to understand what they are consenting to - sex with a human being who is not the gender they express themselves to be - then they cannot give consent to have sex with that person, assuming gender is the basis of their decision.

My two cents.Morally it's rape? I consider someone telling a girl he's rich so that he gets laid better than rape. It doesn't do the real victims any honor to set this on the same level.

Sydenzia

15-09-2005, 16:11

Morally it's rape? I consider someone telling a girl he's rich so that he gets laid better than rape. It doesn't do the real victims any honor to set this on the same level.Morally might be a poor choice of wording, but since I'm not suggesting legal, it seemed the only apropos term to use.

To be fair though, both victims have their right to consent subverted -- one by violence, the other by lies. Neither consents to what they get.

Jah Bootie

15-09-2005, 16:16

I bake a cake, and advertise it as being 100% carrot cake. Completely organic ingredients. Some poor vegan comes along and buys said cake, proceeds to eat it.

I then reveal that it's actually a human corpse made into a cake.

I may have only lied to them, but I have subverted their right to consent to what they put into their bodies by providing knowingly false and misleading information; I have done something which will arguably cause significant emotional distress; and I have put them in a position by which what they consented to - eating carrot cake - was not actually what they experienced.

So, yeah. I stand by rape.

Well, first off, apples to oranges. Boning a fake vagina is not like eating a festering human corpse, and since you admit that it's not a case of rape I don't even understand how it's a relevant comparison.

A better example, let's say I convince a woman that I am a modeling agent and that if she sleeps with me, I can get her a job. She has sex with me and it turns out I am not. Am I a rapist? I agree that it's wrong, but being wrong doesn't make it rape. Rape has a real definition for a good reason. It's a horrible crime and applying it to a bunch of relatively minor things that are not rape at all cheapens the word and dilutes its meaning.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 16:19

Boning a fake vagina is not like eating a festering human corpse.that is a matter of opinion

Laerod

15-09-2005, 16:22

To be fair though, both victims have their right to consent subverted -- one by violence, the other by lies. Neither consents to what they get.True, but the violence is the key. Technically, an individual consents to something. They may have been tricked, but not into having sex but into having sex under conditions they didn't expect. Therefore, it's not really rape.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 16:23

I would say you are radically redefining rape here. .The Politicians have been redefining Rape for as long as I can remember.

there is imaginary lines(borders)...and on one side of the line you are a rapist...on the other side you are a normal person.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 16:24

True, but the violence is the key. in many states and countries you can use zero violence and still are a rapist.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 16:26

in many states and countries you can use zero violence and still are a rapist.You, sir, are quoting out of context. I attempt to fully address the scope of rape with the rest of the post (i.e. tricking someone into having sex).

Astentyde

15-09-2005, 16:30

If someone tricks you into having sex, you should feel stupid- not raped.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 16:36

If someone tricks you into having sex, you should feel stupid- not raped.Argh! I hate debating semantics. I didn't feel like writing up a post that couldn't be sunk by a good attorney, so sue me.

What I'm trying to say, if you beguile someone into having sex (drugs, seduction of minors, violence) then you rape them. If you have sex with someone and it turns out it wasn't under the conditions you thought it was (they were of the same sex, they weren't rich, their name wasn't "Handsome Bob" but "Ugly Bob" which is why they were wearing a paper bag in the first place...) then it's not rape. It's just dishonest.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 16:37

... out of context. I attempt to fully address the scope of rape.And I am adressing your statement "violence is the key"

Eutrusca

15-09-2005, 16:42

Argh! I hate debating semantics. I didn't feel like writing up a post that couldn't be sunk by a good attorney, so sue me.

What I'm trying to say, if you beguile someone into having sex (drugs, seduction of minors, violence) then you rape them. If you have sex with someone and it turns out it wasn't under the conditions you thought it was (they were of the same sex, they weren't rich, their name wasn't "Handsome Bob" but "Ugly Bob" which is why they were wearing a paper bag in the first place...) then it's not rape. It's just dishonest.
I suspect the principle of "informed consent" would apply in most cases. If the individual wasn't capable of informed consent at the time the sexual contact occured, then there would be a presumption of rape.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 16:49

If someone tricks you into having sex, you should feel stupid- not raped.depend on the consequence of the deceit...and the posible traumas associated.

She/he lies about life treat (she/he has AIDS).
She/he lies about Jail consequences (she/he says she is 16)
She lies about life consequences (she says she is taking the Pill)
He says he has Protection(he knows his Condom was sitting inside his desk for over a year)

etc

Laerod

15-09-2005, 16:53

I suspect the principle of "informed consent" would apply in most cases. If the individual wasn't capable of informed consent at the time the sexual contact occured, then there would be a presumption of rape.Where did this idiotic notion of "informed consent" come from? Practically anything could be considered rape then.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 16:58

Where did this idiotic notion of "informed consent" come from? Practically anything could be considered rape then.
Actually in many states...If you have sex with a Girl who had been drinking/doping enough...You are a rapist.

Feraulaer

15-09-2005, 17:25

I wouldn’t call it rape, but I think there should be some sort of civil action one should be able to seek. Not for much, maybe just a few thousand dollars. If there isn’t currently anything like that, there needs to be.
Oh please, come on. What is it with people always wanting cash compensation for things that have happened to them through someone elses fault? Shouldn't there be some financial damage done before you can even claim it? If so, what exactly is the damage?

You have sex with someone, you thought it was nice, then you find out they're transgendered and then you all of a sudden need a couple of thousands of dollars? Please, explain that to me...

The way I see it, is that the reality is that people screw you over, all the time. If you can't deal with that, GROW UP.

Jah Bootie

15-09-2005, 17:28

Actually in many states...If you have sex with a Girl who had been drinking/doping enough...You are a rapist.
Which states are those?

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 17:36

Which states are those?Your home state...
http://www.thedrugtest.net/images/alcohol_screen.jpg
so dont leave home without it... :D

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 17:43

Oh please, come on. What is it with people always wanting cash compensation for things that have happened to them through someone elses fault? Shouldn't there be some financial damage done before you can even claim it? If so, what exactly is the damage?

You have sex with someone, you thought it was nice, then you find out they're transgendered and then you all of a sudden need a couple of thousands of dollars? Please, explain that to me...

The way I see it, is that the reality is that people screw you over, all the time. If you can't deal with that, GROW UP.or...

You have sex with someone, you thought it was nice, a week later you find out He/She was almost 16 (not legal yet) and then He/She all of a sudden need a couple of thousands of dollars...

or...

You have sex with someone, you thought it was nice, a week later you find out She was "Too drunk" to say "yes" and then He/She all of a sudden need a couple of thousands of dollars...

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 17:49

That is under the assumption that certain behavior or ways of thinking are that of a male (masculine), and some are that of a female (feminine). That is the definition of sexism. Unless you are born a hermaphrodite, a difficult topic to discuss, a male is a male and a female is a female. How you think and behave has nothing to do with it.

You seem to have this naive view that biology is cut and dry. How do you define male and female? By chromosomes? By outward sex characteristics? Either will lead you into problems in classification. A person with CAIS is born with XY chromosomes, but develops completely and entirely female due to the inability of her proteins to respond to androgens and thus cause male development. A person with Turner's syndrome may have formed from an XY zygote, but due to an improper division near the beginning has many cells that are XO. She too, from outward appearance and hormones, will develop female sex characteristics. A person with Klinefelter's syndrome may be XXY or XXXY, etc. This person may be born with undescended tetes or with a full fledged penis. At puberty, this person may develop sex characteristics of both biological sexes - devloping facial hair, for instance, at the same time as breasts. So, obviously, we can't really use chromosomes to define it.

Then, if we try to use sex characteristics, then you aren't simply born male or female and that is it. You can have a surgery and take some hormones and change your sex. Thus, a transgendered person who decided upon a sex change would go into the hospital one sex and come out another.

While I am not aware of all the transgender procedures that exists, I do believe most male to female tranSEXUALs retain their penis while having breast implants. I assume this is because removing the shaft would be life threatening.

Any surgery is life threatening. Many transsexuals retain their penis because they are afraid of surgery, or because they feel that they should not have to go to such lengths to be accepted for who they are, or for a myriad of other reasons.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 17:52

While I disapprove the term "mental gender", I thank you for that clarification.

Technically, from a medical perspective, gender only refers to mental characteristics. It is sex that refers to biological sex.

1) A transgendered female is never a full female. As far as I know it is impossible for them to bear a child. Unless it is usual for you to sleep with someone who you have no remote possibility of intending to have a child with, this is a big problem.

So a woman born sterile is not a full woman? She is somehow less of a human being? A woman past menopause is not a woman? A woman who has had a hysterectomy is not a woman?

2) I dont know where you're from, but I'm sure in most areas there exists a very significant population who do not feel comfortable around transexuals and believe that they are mentally unstable, whether because of their conservative beliefs or, in my case, believe that they underwent the procedure because of insecurity of their interests and behavior due to sexism that exists in his or her society

Irrelevant. If someone is bigotted, that is their own problem, not the problem of those they have a problem with.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 18:00

Here's a simpler way to see the merits of considering if this could be rape:

If a person disguised under detailed mask and gave you a false name sleeps with you, would u have called it rape?

To go further, if a stranger disguised as someone you know had sex with you, would you have feel raped?

I'm not advocating for or against this issue, but feel that this may help some people fairly judge the issue without bringing homophobia into consideration.

(a) If you consentually sleep with a stranger, you aren't in any position to complain that they weren't what you thought - you didn't take the time to even get to know them.

(b) If someone is disguised as someone you know, that is rape - and very clearly.

However, this wouldn't fall under that. A transgendered person is who they are. They aren't pretending to be another person. If they are pre-op and you have sexual encounters with them, it could be compared to the following:

A woman doesn't want to have sex with a man with only one testicle. She gets to know a guy and really likes him. He is embarrassed/worried about his lack of a second testicle, so he never tells her. She assumes he has two, since most men do. They have sex. Can she claim rape because she never consented to sleep with a man with one testicle? Of course not! She consented to have sex with that man, and that is what happened. It is no different than consenting to have sex with someone that you don't know is transgendered, and then finding out their genitals aren't what you thought.

If they are post-op, it is like the following:

A woman doesn't want to have sex with any man who has ever had surgery on his penis. She meets a man who has had a vasectomy and is interested in having sex with him. They have sex. She finds out he has had a vasectomy. Can she claim rape?

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 18:08

depend on the consequence of the deceit...and the posible traumas associated.

She/he lies about life treat (she/he has AIDS).
She/he lies about Jail consequences (she/he says she is 16)
She lies about life consequences (she says she is taking the Pill)
He says he has Protection(he knows his Condom was sitting inside his desk for over a year)

etc

None of these things amount to rape. They are certainly deceit, and some of them can get a person sued. For instance, a person with AIDS who has sex without telling the person and transmits it to them can be sued for it, probably under some sort of endangerment laws.

An underage person who lies about their age cannot be charged with rape, but rape charges against the person who slept with them may be dropped on that basis.

And as for protection, protection is the responsibility of both people. If you take someone else's word for it that you are having protected sex instead of being proactive yourself, you take on any consequences that are incurred.

Syawla

15-09-2005, 18:09

Jah Bootie

15-09-2005, 18:15

Your home state...
http://www.thedrugtest.net/images/alcohol_screen.jpg
so dont leave home without it... :D
I don't know of anywhere that considers consexual sex to be rape if one partner was drunk. Now if she is unconscious, or close enough that she cannot resist and she doesn't consent, then that would be rape. I seriously hope that Texas never passes a law that you commit rape when you sleep with a drunk girl. I would be serving many, many consecutive life sentences.

Eutrusca

15-09-2005, 18:19

I don't know of anywhere that considers consexual sex to be rape if one partner was drunk. Now if she is unconscious, or close enough that she cannot resist and she doesn't consent, then that would be rape. I seriously hope that Texas never passes a law that you commit rape when you sleep with a drunk girl. I would be serving many, many consecutive life sentences.
Well, I probably would too, but over the years I have discovered that for the full effect and the greatest creativity, it's best if you're both "drunk" on mutual attraction and nothing else! :D

The Nazz

15-09-2005, 18:45

I don't know of anywhere that considers consexual sex to be rape if one partner was drunk. Now if she is unconscious, or close enough that she cannot resist and she doesn't consent, then that would be rape. I seriously hope that Texas never passes a law that you commit rape when you sleep with a drunk girl. I would be serving many, many consecutive life sentences.
Arkansas has one on the books. It is rarely, if ever enforced, but it is on the books. The legal argument is that a drunk person cannot give consent. The problems with prosecuting it, however, are legion--how does a person prove he or she was drunk at the time he or she was having sex? Can you prove that the alleged raper knew the victim was legally drunk? And that's just off the top of my head.

Liskeinland

15-09-2005, 18:57

So a woman born sterile is not a full woman? She is somehow less of a human being? A woman past menopause is not a woman? A woman who has had a hysterectomy is not a woman? No, but a woman with male DNA is not fully woman.

Democras

15-09-2005, 18:58

How you think and behave has a lot to do with it. Men's brains and women's brains are very different structures. The influence of hormones makes some thought processes easier for men and others for women.

Trends and tendencies in something does not make it a "rule". The very fact exceptions exists means u cannot call something a "men's brain" and a "women's brain". Just because soemthing is easier for men or women does not mean that thing makes someone men or women-like.

I love stuffed animals and cute things. I have no interest in football and beer. I know next to nothing about cars. I watch romance dramas half the time. I assure you I am a complete straight male.

Randomlittleisland

15-09-2005, 19:02

Rape? No

Impolite, Rude, Dishonest and potentially traumatic for some men? Most definately.

I think the guy has a right to know.

Democras

15-09-2005, 19:35

The argument that they were alwasy the opposite gender on the inside is flawed. That is a result of sexism because society tells them their interests and behavior makes them another gender.

I did not "choose" to be born Asian, does that mean I should bleach or tan my skin and have plastic surgery for another race's common physical traits to become another race? If racism wasn't so big an issue back then Michael Jackson probably wouldn't have bleached his skin.

I did not "choose" to be born as the son of my parents and the brother of my siblings, should I erase their existence and seek adoptive family?

I did not "choose" to be born male. Just because other people would associate my interests and behavior to that of a female's, does that mean I should undergo transexual operations?

Even if you want to keep sexual orientation a seperate topic to discuss, You are who you are, and you should be proud of it. Doing any such changes to your body is clearly a disguise and I would argue that it is due to insecurity. Having the op done would only be like patching ripped clothing, it would never remove doubts within that person.

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 20:20

I don't know of anywhere that considers consexual sex to be rape if one partner was drunk.
http://www.drugrehabresources.com/content.php?cid=85&state=Delaware
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/643674/posts
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,821099,00.html
http://rds.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AodiZWQj_p71KZeVuJsCJzlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBxMWJzaW5nBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMTYEc2VjA3Ny/SIG=12m76mj04/EXP=1126898272/**http%3A%2F%2Fthepost.baker.ohiou.edu%2Farchives2%2F100499%2F403.html
www.ncdsv.org/images/CadetCutsDeal.pdf
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=too+drunk+for+consent&ei=UTF-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&fr=moz2
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=alcohol+rape+consent&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2&fl=0&x=wrt

Stephistan

15-09-2005, 20:28

Rape no, deceitful and dishonest yes.

Agreed.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 20:47

No, but a woman with male DNA is not fully woman.
So a woman with CAIS is not a full woman?

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 20:49

I did not "choose" to be born male. Just because other people would associate my interests and behavior to that of a female's, does that mean I should undergo transexual operations?

You have hugely misunderstood transgenderism.

It isn't about what other people think, it's about what the person feels inside.

Cabra West

15-09-2005, 20:55

No, but a woman with male DNA is not fully woman.

In that case, do we all need to get our DNA checked so we can prove that we're women?
There are a number of genetical anormailities (as pointed out numerous times in this thread so far) that would result in a woman with XY chromosomes...

Kynot

15-09-2005, 21:00

I say it fraud/false advertisment but not rape

Democras

15-09-2005, 21:01

You have hugely misunderstood transgenderism.

It isn't about what other people think, it's about what the person feels inside.
In that case, do we all need to get our DNA checked so we can prove that we're women?
There are a number of genetical anormailities (as pointed out numerous times in this thread so far) that would result in a woman with XY chromosomes...

While abnormalities do exist, how common are they? What percentage to they represent in the transgendered population?

I am talking about those who do not have such biological abnormalities. Can you argue with certainty that the majority of them really undergo the operation because of what they THEMSELF feel inside? Not how they feel others view about their behavior and interests? Unrelated to sexism be it from others or from themself?

Liskeinland

15-09-2005, 21:01

In that case, do we all need to get our DNA checked so we can prove that we're women?
There are a number of genetical anormailities (as pointed out numerous times in this thread so far) that would result in a woman with XY chromosomes... Yes, and people with those abnormalities do not display all the characteristics of being a woman. What is the definition of "woman", anyway?

Bleenie

15-09-2005, 21:02

i voted no, but then i thought.. she *is* a he and the guys wernt willing to have sex with a man, so there wasnt really a true conset on both sides. so if theres a way to change my vote.. how do i do it?

Nova Castlemilk

15-09-2005, 21:04

If you find the other person attractive and want to have sex with them. Then does it really matter what their internal plumbing is like?
:headbang:

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 21:04

I am talking about those who do not have such biological abnormalities. Can you argue with certainty that the majority of them really undergo the operation because of what they THEMSELF feel inside? And not how they feel others view about their behavior and interests?
Yes.

With 100% certainty for the vast majority of transexuals.

Cabra West

15-09-2005, 21:05

Yes, and people with those abnormalities do not display all the characteristics of being a woman. What is the definition of "woman", anyway?

woman

• noun (pl. women) 1 an adult human female.
Oxford English Dictionary (http://www.askoxford.com)

Depending on the abnormality, some of those people would. Many wouldn't even notice that there is a abnormality in the first place, not unless they had it tested...

Democras

15-09-2005, 21:07

Yes.

With 100% certainty for the vast majority of transexuals.

Ok, and please explain. I would like to know how sexism isn't involved either from others or the transgender themself.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 21:14

It certainly isn't rape, that's for sure, but it is definitely deceitful. If you are a trans-sexual, you should at least tell the person you are going to sleep with that you are. In my opinion, you shouldn't be sleeping with someone unless you are married to them anyway...

Jah Bootie

15-09-2005, 21:14

http://www.drugrehabresources.com/content.php?cid=85&state=Delaware
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/643674/posts
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,821099,00.html
http://rds.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AodiZWQj_p71KZeVuJsCJzlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBxMWJzaW5nBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMTYEc2VjA3Ny/SIG=12m76mj04/EXP=1126898272/**http%3A%2F%2Fthepost.baker.ohiou.edu%2Farchives2%2F100499%2F403.html
www.ncdsv.org/images/CadetCutsDeal.pdf
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=too+drunk+for+consent&ei=UTF-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&fr=moz2
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=alcohol+rape+consent&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2&fl=0&x=wrt
I went through that for a while and didn't find any cases where a woman admitsto giving consent, except for the mililtary one and, you know, that's the military. All of rest them seem to involve women on the edge of consciousness. The law in England sounds pretty ambiguous, but they make a lot of dumb laws.

I don't know, maybe people do regularly get busted for having sex with drunk girls. If so, that's a draconian and hysterical law that needs to be changed.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 21:16

Ok, and please explain. I would like to know how sexism isn't involved either from others or the transgender themself.
The person's gender is that of the opposite to their sex. That is what the vast majority of transexuals feel. (Bear in mind gender and sex are not the same thing, and do not have to have the same 'value'.)

How that is sexist, I would love to know.

Jordaxia

15-09-2005, 21:17

Ok, and please explain. I would like to know how sexism isn't involved either from others or the transgender themself.

I could give a brief, quick answer.

I have incredibly male interests, and nobody who knows me would consider me overly feminine. I'm pursuing sex re-assignment and clearly don't fit into that category. It's all about how I feel inside.

Angelfox

15-09-2005, 21:24

I don't think it's rape because they gave thier consent. no they didn't give consent to have sex with a man but, they probably didn't specify what gender they consented to have sex with.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 21:28

A real easy way to avoid accidentally sleeping with a trans-sexual is by not sleeping with anybody until you are married, and once you are married, your spouse should be the only person you sleep with. And, if you have made the commitment to marry them, you would know whether they were a trans-sexual or not.

Democras

15-09-2005, 21:30

The person's gender is that of the opposite to their sex. That is what the vast majority of transexuals feel. (Bear in mind gender and sex are not the same thing, and do not have to have the same 'value'.)

How that is sexist, I would love to know.

I don't recall there being a distinction between the term "sex" and "gender". Gender has been used now only because it is politically correct, the use of the word "sex" is taboo or frowned upon. But I believe what you are referring to is mental gender vs biological gender.

The whole concept of mental gender is sexist. It is under the assumption that certain interests and behavior are associated with one gender, and having more of such association with one gender makes you that gender. I find that highly sexist. In fact, that's the DEFINITION of sexism. You are what you are. If you are born a biological male with a personality that your friends and people around you would call you a "girl" like I am, so what? That doesn't make me any less of a male.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 21:33

I don't recall there being a distinction between the term "sex" and "gender". Gender has been used now only because it is politically correct, the use of the word "sex" is taboo or frowned upon. But I believe what you are referring to is mental gender vs biological gender.
Nope.

Sex is physical characteristics, gender is mental characteristics. That's how it is.

The whole concept of mental gender is sexist. It is under the assumption that certain interests and behavior are associated with one gender, and having more of such association with one gender makes you that gender. I find that highly sexist.
That's not sexist at all. Acknowledging the differences between males and females is not sexist at all. Acknowledging that males and females have different preferences etc. is not sexist, it's facing the truth. Discriminating against someone because of those differences, however, is sexist.

You are what you are. If you are born a biological male with a personality that your friends and people around you would call you a "girl" like I am, so what? That doesn't make me any less of a male.
Nope, of course it doesn't. But you feel that you really are male, inside. A transgendered male simply doesn't feel that they really are male, inside.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 21:46

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 21:48

Yes, and people with those abnormalities do not display all the characteristics of being a woman. What is the definition of "woman", anyway?

Actually, a woman with CAIS generally displays all characteristics associated with a woman. This is because female development is the default, and since her cells cannot react to increased levels of certain androgens, she continues to develop as a female. In fact, there was a woman with CAIS who was going to the Olympics before they blood tested her, labeled her as male, and banned her from competition. She was an adult, and had no idea that she was chromosomally male.

I don't know, maybe people do regularly get busted for having sex with drunk girls. If so, that's a draconian and hysterical law that needs to be changed.

Actually, the main reason that these laws aren't used often is that, as a general rule, both people are drunk. If they are both drunk, then neither can give legal consent, and they technically raped each other. I believe the laws are most often used in cases where one person intentionally gives drugs/alcohol to a person, remains sober, and then uses their intoxication to get them to have sex.

Katganistan

15-09-2005, 21:49

Wouldn't that be male fraud?

LOL!

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 21:52

Then maybe males who do not feel like males inside should just accept what they are! That's the whole problem! People are never satisfied with who they are, so they have to go and get a surgery to change their sex! You are what you are, and you should just accept that.

Are you equally opposed to all forms of plastic surgery?

Katganistan

15-09-2005, 21:52

Maybe it does,t met the legal term for rape, but it is still rape all the same, it would make the person that had had sex with them go though all the emotions and stages of a rape victim.

That's an awfully huge leap to make -- why would consentual sex ever be rape? Rape is the use of force or a judgment-impairing substance to have sex with someone.

If they did not force the person or drug the person and the sex was agreed to, it's not rape.

I'd like to see the source, though, for your assertion that finding out that Eve was once Steve would cause a person to "go though all the emotions and stages of a rape victim."

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 21:57

Are you equally opposed to all forms of plastic surgery?

Like breast enlargenment? Even though I am straight, yes I am against it because it is making you something you are not because you are not content with what you look like.

Neo-Anarchists

15-09-2005, 22:03

You are what you are, and you should just accept that.
Well, of course I am what I am, but that doesn't tell me what I am, does it?
I would say this: I am my choices, I am constantly changing. When I choose something, it becomes part of me.
Just accepting the way I was at some moment in time and staying exactly the same seems rather pointless. Why should those who have the power to change who they are not use that power?

OceanDrive2

15-09-2005, 22:05

I don't know, maybe people do regularly get busted for having sex with drunk girls. No they don't get busted...the Laws are there...but they apply in a random way...its like a lotto...

Most Rapist do not get charged (real rape or virtual rape)

unless you are rich or/and famous...chances are The Girl or her family will press charges.
...and if you know what is good for you..you will settle out of court.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:06

Like breast enlargenment? Even though I am straight, yes I am against it because it is making you something you are not because you are not content with what you look like.How about someone getting their nose shot off? Would you be opposed to someone having the gaping hole replaced because it would make them somthing they are not because they aren't content with what they look like?

Jordaxia

15-09-2005, 22:09

Then maybe males who do not feel like males inside should just accept what they are! That's the whole problem! People are never satisfied with who they are, so they have to go and get a surgery to change their sex! You are what you are, and you should just accept that.

I hear this argument so often... and I have prepared a response.

why?

There is no reason why I should just "accept it" (not that I could) when modern medicine and technology can help!

Democras

15-09-2005, 22:09

That's not sexist at all. Acknowledging the differences between males and females is not sexist at all. Acknowledging that males and females have different preferences etc. is not sexist, it's facing the truth. Discriminating against someone because of those differences, however, is sexist.

Discrimination
the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually.

Discrimination does not necessary have to bear ill will. What you described is not acknowledgement. It IS discrimination, unles you mean to say that I, a straight male, attracted to cute objects, stuffed animals, no knowledge of cars, no interest in football and beer, am actually a lesbian stuck in a male body, your argument is completely flawed. If that is what you mean then I guess there's no way to reach an understanding.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 22:09

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:12

Democras

15-09-2005, 22:13

I hear this argument so often... and I have prepared a response.

why?

There is no reason why I should just "accept it" (not that I could) when modern medicine and technology can help!

I agree with Baybollistan. When you are making changes to become what you aren't, such as plastic surgery or transgender, that is insecurity. Neither should be promoted.

I am not talking about being Christian scientists (i'm not) where you just let God deal with whatever is happening to you, because it is accepted that diseases, cancer, birth defects, etc. are "abnormal". That is a very important distinction and of course you should be allowed to use medical science to deal with these problems.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 22:14

I hear this argument so often... and I have prepared a response.

why?

There is no reason why I should just "accept it" (not that I could) when modern medicine and technology can help!

Modern medicine and technology should not be abused in this way. Using it in this way just destroys who you are because you think you are not good enough and need to look better or you fall into the trap of thinking that homosexuality is okay because you can just change your sex which makes it okay. Don't take that last sentence the wrong way, I'm not prejudiced in the sense that I dislike homosexuals because they are homosexual, it's that I hate the sin, not the sinner.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 22:15

Which is not the point of transsexuals getting operations...

I wasn't talking about trans-sexuals in that particular post

Democras

15-09-2005, 22:15

Modern medicine and technology should not be abused in this way. Using it in this way just destroys who you are because you think you are not good enough and need to look better or you fall into the trap of thinking that homosexuality is okay because you can just change your sex which makes it okay. Don't take that last sentence the wrong way, I'm not prejudiced in the sense that I dislike homosexuals because they are homosexual, it's that I hate the sin, not the sinner.

I woudl avoid using the homosexual argument here because that is a seperate issue. Homosexuals are quite different from Transgendered; homosexuals don't go thorugh the operation. When you bring in homosexuals you begin the debate whether if there is actually 4 genders.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 22:17

I agree with Baybollistan. When you are making changes to become what you aren't, such as plastic surgery or transgender, that is insecurity. Neither should be promoted.

I am not talking about being Christian scientists (i'm not) where you just let God deal with whatever is happening to you, because it is accepted that diseases, cancer, birth defects, etc. are "abnormal". That is a very important distinction and of course you should be allowed to use medical science to deal with these problems.

I have the same opinion of Christian Science as you do. It makes no sense not to use medicine and doctors to cure you from diseases. I don't know how they can call themselves Christian, they are actually a cult (not to be confused with occult).

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 22:19

When you bring in homosexuals you begin the debate whether if there is actually 4 genders.
How's that? Now there's an argument I've never heard. Two genders. Period. Now physical sex...there's another issue altogether...but who is talking about 4 genders? :confused:

Neo-Anarchists

15-09-2005, 22:19

The whole concept of mental gender is sexist. It is under the assumption that certain interests and behavior are associated with one gender, and having more of such association with one gender makes you that gender.
Let me try to describe this by analogy:
Let's say some sadistic government forced you to get your sex changed to the opposite of the one you are now. Or, perhaps we could imagine that one morning you woke up, and your body was female.
Do you think that would feel wrong to you, in some way?
Do you think you would still feel as whichever gender you had been before?

I, for one, think that most people would still feel as their original gender. I think that there are people with a male body, who have the same feeling about that body as the feeling you would in the situation earlier. These people are the transsexuals.

That's my take on the whole thing.

Bayzbollistan

15-09-2005, 22:19

I woudl avoid using the homosexual argument here because that is a seperate issue. Homosexuals are quite different from Transgendered; homosexuals don't go thorugh the operation. When you bring in homosexuals you begin the debate whether if there is actually 4 genders.

Say if a guy is gay and is insecure about being gay, so he gets a sex change so that he can be with other guys without other people knowing he is gay. Why else would you get a sex change?

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:20

Modern medicine and technology should not be abused in this way. Using it in this way just destroys who you are because you think you are not good enough and need to look better or you fall into the trap of thinking that homosexuality is okay because you can just change your sex which makes it okay. Don't take that last sentence the wrong way, I'm not prejudiced in the sense that I dislike homosexuals because they are homosexual, it's that I hate the sin, not the sinner.Homosexuals are also not transsexuals. Transsexuals feel they are trapped in some other persons body. Your reaction is basically comparable to telling someone suffering from a depression to "get over it". A homosexual is attracted to members of the same sex and will not be interested in changing their sex, so you need not fear that they "abuse" the possibility.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 22:20

Say if a guy is gay and is insecure about being gay, so he gets a sex change so that he can be with other guys without other people knowing he is gay. Why else would you get a sex change?
:headbang:
Do you really want to know the answer to your question? Or are you content with this guess? Good to know before people bother to spend time answering you.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 22:21

No, I wouldn't be opposed to someone having surgery on their nose if it was shot. I have a problem with the people who look normal and want to get surgery for the sole purpose of being more attractive.

That is logically inconsistent. By the logic you earlier expressed, the person with no nose should be happy with what they are. They shouldn't worry about looking normal.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:21

Say if a guy is gay and is insecure about being gay, so he gets a sex change so that he can be with other guys without other people knowing he is gay. Why else would you get a sex change?I seriously doubt you'll meet anyone that got a sex change for that reason.

Neo-Anarchists

15-09-2005, 22:22

Say if a guy is gay and is insecure about being gay, so he gets a sex change so that he can be with other guys without other people knowing he is gay.
He would enter a rather depressing world of being in a body that did not fit his mind.
Gay men do not want to be women in relationships with men, gay men want to be men in relationships with men. Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 22:23

Say if a guy is gay and is insecure about being gay, so he gets a sex change so that he can be with other guys without other people knowing he is gay. Why else would you get a sex change?
A good point to bring up is: you are making the assumption that life as a transsexual is somehow easier than life as a gay man, so it's an 'easy out'. Hardly true.

And a person's sexuality is not determined by their gender. I thought that was clear.

Jordaxia

15-09-2005, 22:24

Modern medicine and technology should not be abused in this way. Using it in this way just destroys who you are because you think you are not good enough and need to look better or you fall into the trap of thinking that homosexuality is okay because you can just change your sex which makes it okay. Don't take that last sentence the wrong way, I'm not prejudiced in the sense that I dislike homosexuals because they are homosexual, it's that I hate the sin, not the sinner.

First, I like girls. Don't assume.

Secondly, I'm not abusing it. This, among many other things, is what it's HERE for.

Third, I don't really care HOW I look. Looking nice is a bonus, but don't think I'm shallow enough to want a fundamentally life-changing procedure JUST so I look good.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 22:24

How's that? Now there's an argument I've never heard. Two genders. Period. Now physical sex...there's another issue altogether...but who is talking about 4 genders? :confused:

LOL! Sinuhue, that argument has been made in threads you have started about transsexuality and gender roles. We have discussed whether our definition of two separate genders actually makes sense at all.

How ya doin', btw?

Democras

15-09-2005, 22:26

Let me try to describe this by analogy:
Let's say some sadistic government forced you to get your sex changed to the opposite of the one you are now. Or, perhaps we could imagine that one morning you woke up, and your body was female.
Do you think that would feel wrong to you, in some way?
Do you think you would still feel as whichever gender you had been before?

I, for one, think that most people would still feel as their original gender. I think that there are people with a male body, who have the same feeling about that body as the feeling you would in the situation earlier. These people are the transsexuals.

That's my take on the whole thing.

Putting aside from the rare XXY cases (which I believe are the only valid cases for transgender operations) because of instability or birthdefect or whatever is the proper scientific term..

The problem with what you said is.. NO ONE, no entity, changed your gender! You are born as you are. That is your most natural form. There's no mutations, no mistake. There is no such thing as being male or female on the inside. You are simply being YOU! You like what you like, you do what you do. That is not what makes you male or female. You are you, you are born the way you are and there's nothing wrong with that. Be proud of yourself and what you have.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 22:28

LOL! Sinuhue, that argument has been made in threads you have started about transsexuality and gender roles. We have discussed whether our definition of two separate genders actually makes sense at all. I do remember it being brought up as a possible alternative to the current gender system...but quickly dismissed as not necessary. I haven't heard anyone outside of NS talking about 4 genders though...is there some sort of academic argument for it?

How ya doin', btw?Feeling pretty pathetic for not lasting two weeks without NS...but glad to be here, even for a brief time!

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 22:28

He would enter a rather depressing world of being in a body that did not fit his mind.
Gay men do not want to be women in relationships with men, gay men want to be men in relationships with men. Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing.

Exactly! Well, put.

I would add that some transsexuals are, in fact, attracted to the opposite of their original biological sex. Thus, a transsexual who had a sex change to become a woman, might be attracted to women. She simply feels that she is, herself, female.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:29

Putting aside from the rare XXY cases (which I believe are the only valid cases for transgender operations) because of instability or birthdefect or whatever is the proper scientific term..

The problem with what you said is.. NO ONE, no entity, changed your gender! You are born as you are. That is your most natural form. There's no mutations, no mistake. There is no such thing as being male or female on the inside. You are simply being YOU! You like what you like, you do what you do. That is not what makes you male or female. You are you, you are born the way you are and there's nothing wrong with that. Be proud of yourself and what you have.Um, so being born blind shouldn't result in trying to find a cure for that because it's your most natural form? Just because it's easier to tell when the eyes are messed up doesn't mean the gender never is.

Democras

15-09-2005, 22:34

Um, so being born blind shouldn't result in trying to find a cure for that because it's your most natural form? Just because it's easier to tell when the eyes are messed up doesn't mean the gender never is.
That is a birth defect. Those who seek transgender operations may only use the birth defect argument if they are those CAIS or xxy chromosone cases.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 22:35

Um, so being born blind shouldn't result in trying to find a cure for that because it's your most natural form? Just because it's easier to tell when the eyes are messed up doesn't mean the gender never is.

Yeah, I'm wondering how he knows that transsexuality doesn't involve a mutation or mistake. We certainlly don't know everything about how and why the brain forms the way it does. We know even less about why the personality forms the way it does. How can we say that it isn't some type of mistake that a transsexual is born into the physical form they are born into?

Ruloah

15-09-2005, 22:36

Um, so being born blind shouldn't result in trying to find a cure for that because it's your most natural form? Just because it's easier to tell when the eyes are messed up doesn't mean the gender never is.

I have always wondered how a man would know what it is like to feel like a woman? How would he know? Feel like a woman inside? How do women feel inside? How would a woman know if she feels like a man inside?

How do I feel inside?
Maybe I feel like a tiger inside?(and I often do---I feel like biting with my non-existent fangs and tearing with my non-existent claws, and ripping into some living human flesh---grrrrr!!!)
But is that really how a tiger feels?

How would I have any way of finding out?

Even if I had an operation to put me into the body of an actual tiger, how would I know how a tiger feels? Until we can put our minds into someone else's mind, we cannot know!

Jordaxia

15-09-2005, 22:37

That is a birth defect. Those who seek transgender operations may only use the birth defect argument if they are those CAIS or xxy chromosone cases.

What makes that a birth defect, but yet you do not recognise it as possible for a female to be born with the physical characteristics of the female?

Why does nature somehow become completely incapable of error in this one little thing, but every other thing that is abnormal (I use this term incredibly loosely) is a birth defect that you would consider acceptable to treat?

I find these double standards odd.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 22:37

Modern medicine and technology should not be abused in this way. Using it in this way just destroys who you are because you think you are not good enough and need to look better or you fall into the trap of thinking that homosexuality is okay because you can just change your sex which makes it okay. Don't take that last sentence the wrong way, I'm not prejudiced in the sense that I dislike homosexuals because they are homosexual, it's that I hate the sin, not the sinner.

In other words, "You should be who you are!*"

*Unless you happen to be a homosexual, in which case you should act like someone else

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:38

That is a birth defect. Those who seek transgender operations may only use the birth defect argument if they are those CAIS or xxy chromosone cases.Hm. Makes me glad I live in Germany. (It's actually recognized as the disease it is and the operations get covered with medical insurance if cases turn up)

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 22:38

That is a birth defect. Those who seek transgender operations may only use the birth defect argument if they are those CAIS or xxy chromosone cases.
How do you know that transgenderism isn't a birth defect resulting from hormone levels in the womb? (as the current scientific theory goes)

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:40

I have always wondered how a man would know what it is like to feel like a woman? How would he know? Feel like a woman inside? How do women feel inside? How would a woman know if she feels like a man inside?

How do I feel inside?
Maybe I feel like a tiger inside?(and I often do---I feel like biting with my non-existent fangs and tearing with my non-existent claws, and ripping into some living human flesh---grrrrr!!!)
But is that really how a tiger feels?

How would I have any way of finding out?

Even if I had an operation to put me into the body of an actual tiger, how would I know how a tiger feels? Until we can put our minds into someone else's mind, we cannot know!You can, however, feel trapped in the wrong body.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 22:41

I have always wondered how a man would know what it is like to feel like a woman? How would he know? Feel like a woman inside? How do women feel inside? How would a woman know if she feels like a man inside?

I would love to tell you exactly how it felt. But I don't have the words. I almost wish you could feel it for an instant, so you could understand. But I can't.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 22:41

What makes that a birth defect, but yet you do not recognise it as possible for a female to be born with the physical characteristics of the female?

Why does nature somehow become completely incapable of error in this one little thing, but every other thing that is abnormal (I use this term incredibly loosely) is a birth defect that you would consider acceptable to treat?

I find these double standards odd.
Perhaps the only defect we humans have is the inability to switch our biological sex the way some other species are able to. Then again, with our current great numbers, perhaps it simply isn't a biological imperative. The angel-fish (you know, like cute little Nemo) can become female and bear young. Many other species also have this ability. Humans tend to deal with our needs using tools...rather than growing heavy pelts, we wear clothes. Rather than let near-sighted people walk off cliffs, we invent eyeglasses. To correct a defect of birth that we do not yet understand, the defect of being born into a gender opposite from one's biological sex , we can also use tools. How is that any worse than anything else humans do on a day to day basis to adapt to our environment?

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 22:46

How do you know that transgenderism isn't a birth defect resulting from hormone levels in the womb? (as the current scientific theory goes)

Transgenderism (of a sort) has even been observed in other mammals. There are biologically male bighorn sheep who act completely and totally like female sheep. They travel with the female herd (which is separate from the males except during mating season). If the female herd meets a male herd outside of the mating season, the sheep will not allow a male to mount him, any more than any female will. The only difference one can tell between the transgendered male sheep and a female is that he has a penis (and horns, probably, I'm not that familiar with it - girls might have horns too) and XY chromosomes.

Obviously, we cannot ask this sheep, "Do you feel female inside," but we can see that he certainly acts like it, in every possible way.

Ruloah

15-09-2005, 22:50

You can, however, feel trapped in the wrong body.

Reminds me of a story, can't remember the title, about a guy who begins to feel as though his skeleton wants to leave his body.

So he contacts someone who advertises that they can handle bone problems. He is visited by a strange little man with a tubular tongue who eats out all his bones, leaving him alive, but without a skeleton.

Having an odd feeling, however persistent, such as being trapped in the wrong body, or that your skeleton has too many bones, or that you wish you had dentures instead of teeth, or I could go on, should not be grounds for declaring that your body ought to be made to conform to your feeling. Maybe we just need better psychologists/psychiatrists...

Democras

15-09-2005, 22:51

How do you know that transgenderism isn't a birth defect resulting from hormone levels in the womb? (as the current scientific theory goes)

Because in the very post you quoted I mentioned the scientifically identified forms of such defect are cases where transgender operation should be accepted, and these are rare compared to those who don't have such defects going through the operation.

Using Ruloah's argument against the "i'm trapped in a body of the opposite gender" argument, what makes you think you are actually the opposite gender of your body? And using the argument that science cannot yet determine how personality is formed right back at whoever said it, exactly! So what makes you think you are the opposite gender from your body? And the lack of evidence from the neurology department makes the argument void. You should focus on arguments based on what can be argued with.

Under Ruloah's argument, how can you possibily know that your mind is the opposite gender? The only way that exists is society TELLS you that the things you do, the things you like, makes you a certain gender. You buy into that belief, feel that you are different on the inside from the outside, and seek to "fix" the problem.

Again, as I've stated before, I am a straight male who is attracted to cute objects, collect stuffed animals, have no interest in football or beer, and know next to nothing about cars. Do you mean to say that I am in actuality a lesbian trapped in a male body?

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 22:54

Because in the very post you quoted I mentioned the scientifically identified forms of such defect, and these are rare compared to those who don't have such defects going through the operation.

If science hasn't found it yet, it doesn't exist!!!!

Yeah, guess there is no cause for most cases of Alzheimer's then, or Parkinson's. We've only found any type of cause for a very small minority of genetic cases.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 22:55

Again, as I've stated before, I am a straight male who is attracted to cute objects, collect stuffed animals, have no interest in football or beer, and know next to nothing about cars. Do you mean to say that I am in actuality a lesbian trapped in a male body?
Well, are you? Because if you were, you'd know it. Just like I know, deep down, and since I was capable of conscious reflection that I am female. Luckily, my sex matches my gender. My brother, however, since HE was capable of conscious thought has always felt female.

Again...how do you explain this to someone who has never felt it? You can not adequately do so. Should we then just dismiss these feelings as invalid because we lack the capacity to comprehend them?

Hardly.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:56

Reminds me of a story, can't remember the title, about a guy who begins to feel as though his skeleton wants to leave his body.

So he contacts someone who advertises that they can handle bone problems. He is visited by a strange little man with a tubular tongue who eats out all his bones, leaving him alive, but without a skeleton.

Having an odd feeling, however persistent, such as being trapped in the wrong body, or that your skeleton has too many bones, or that you wish you had dentures instead of teeth, or I could go on, should not be grounds for declaring that your body ought to be made to conform to your feeling. Maybe we just need better psychologists/psychiatrists...Feeling you have the wrong gender might be a little different from feeling that your bones want to leave your body. It is also a "story" while transsexuals are a reality. In fact, it does very little to seriously contribute to this discussion.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 22:58

Under Ruloah's argument, how can you possibily know that your mind is the opposite gender? The only way that exists is society TELLS you that the things you do, the things you like, makes you a certain gender. You buy into that belief, feel that you are different on the inside from the outside, and seek to "fix" the problem.
Like I've said, it's nothing to do wiht society. That much I know. What I do know is that I can't describe in words what it feels like.

If that sounds inadequate, then tough. You try feeling this and expressing it adequately.

If I didn't 'know' that I was female, why did I tell people when I was very young (like before school, before I could really have known much about transgenderism, before I was really aware of the difference between males and females) that I was a girl? Why did I always try to be the girl in anything? Why in 'mummies and daddies' was I always the mother? Why did I tell people I was a girl before I could have even thought about it? Why did i think I was a girl before I could have possibly known anything about transgenderism? Or before I could have been 'influenced' by society, as you put it down to?

Again, as I've stated before, I am a straight male who is attracted to cute objects, collect stuffed animals, have no interest in football or beer, and know next to nothing about cars. Do you mean to say that I am in actuality a lesbian trapped in a male body?
Nope. Not at all. Unless you feel that you are female. You obviously don't, so you are not a lesbian trapped in a male body.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 22:59

Using Ruloah's argument against the "i'm trapped in a body of the opposite gender" argument, what makes you think you are actually the opposite gender of your body?Probably the feeling that something is wrong.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:00

Well, are you? Because if you were, you'd know it. Just like I know, deep down, and since I was capable of conscious reflection that I am female. Luckily, my sex matches my gender. My brother, however, since HE was capable of conscious thought has always felt female.

Again...how do you explain this to someone who has never felt it? You can not adequately do so. Should we then just dismiss these feelings as invalid because we lack the capacity to comprehend them?

Hardly.

I disagree with the "If you are, you'll know it." argument. There is no reasoning behind it and can be used for anything. "I deserve the government giving me 10 billion dollars and exempt from taxation for life, I know it."

You seem to have failed to notice or respond to how I believe people "know" what gender they should be. I will quote it again for you.

Under Ruloah's argument, how can you possibily know that your mind is the opposite gender? The only way that exists is society TELLS you that the things you do, the things you like, makes you a certain gender. You buy into that belief, feel that you are different on the inside from the outside, and seek to "fix" the problem.

Uzkanistania

15-09-2005, 23:02

Not rape, just very, VERY disgusting.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:02

Probably the feeling that something is wrong.
Analyze this psychologically. What are possible causes for this feeling that something is wrong, other than people telling you that your interests and behavior "don't match up" to your biological gender?

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:05

You seem to have failed to notice or respond to how I believe people "know" what gender they should be. I will quote it again for you.Under Ruloah's argument, how can you possibily know that your mind is the opposite gender? The only way that exists is society TELLS you that the things you do, the things you like, makes you a certain gender. You buy into that belief, feel that you are different on the inside from the outside, and seek to "fix" the problem.
Actually, gender has nothing to do with society telling you what you should be. If I recall a sick experiment on a pair of boys: Some kind of accident occured with one of the boys' genitals and a doctor decided to see what would happen if he got raised as a girl. He didn't feel right doing it, and later committed suicide because of the strain he was put through. The experiment proved that you can't "tell" someone they're male or female and change how they feel about it through outside pressure.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:07

Analyze this psychologically. What are possible causes for this feeling that something is wrong, other than people telling you that your interests and behavior "don't match up" to your biological gender?I'm not talking about "interests" or "behavior". I'm talking about a "feeling" that something is "wrong" and not that society's demands don't match up with what you like doing.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:08

Actually, gender has nothing to do with society telling you what you should be. If I recall a sick experiment on a pair of boys: Some kind of accident occured with one of the boys' genitals and a doctor decided to see what would happen if he got raised as a girl. He didn't feel right doing it, and later committed suicide because of the strain he was put through. The experiment proved that you can't "tell" someone they're male or female and change how they feel about it through outside pressure.
Was it not that he was raised as a girl after an accident during castration destroyed his penis, but when he was older he still felt like a male, and underwent sexual reassignment?

I didn't hear that he killed himself.

I'm waiting for Democras to answer any of my questions in post 188.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:09

Actually, gender has nothing to do with society telling you what you should be. If I recall a sick experiment on a pair of boys: Some kind of accident occured with one of the boys' genitals and a doctor decided to see what would happen if he got raised as a girl. He didn't feel right doing it, and later committed suicide because of the strain he was put through. The experiment proved that you can't "tell" someone they're male or female and change how they feel about it through outside pressure.

The experiment or the analogy is flawed. Society does not make one a gender by forcing them to do something. Society tells them their interests and behavior belongs to that of a certain gender.

The only way to properly conduct that experiment would be, rather than raising the boy as a girl, to tell the boy what he does is a what girl would/should do everday.

Neo-Anarchists

15-09-2005, 23:10

Analyze this psychologically. What are possible causes for this feeling that something is wrong, other than people telling you that your interests and behavior "don't match up" to your biological gender?
May I re-ask a question, based on this point?

If you feel that societal causes are the only reason for the feeling wrong, would you then not feel wrong in the hypothetical situation that you woke up one morning as a woman?

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:11

Was it not that he was raised as a girl after an accident during castration destroyed his penis, but when he was older he still felt like a male, and underwent sexual reassignment?

I didn't hear that he killed himself.Saw a show on it a while ago. The brother openly blamed the doctor that conducted the experiment for his brother's suicide.
The documentary's emphasis was on the experiment and how the hypothesis that society directly influences the gender was false, and at what a tragic price this revelation was paid (well, the doctor didn't realise it...)

Dartminnd

15-09-2005, 23:11

:headbang: rape could be someone stiking there finger in someones nose as long as that person didn't want that finger in their nose.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:14

The experiment or the analogy is flawed. Society does not make one a gender by forcing them to do something. Society tells them their interests and behavior belongs to that of a certain gender.

The only way to properly conduct that experiment would be, rather than raising the boy as a girl, to tell the boy what he does is a what girl would/should do everday.I doubt such an experiment would seriously endanger anybody of wanting to change their gender. We have boys being told that only girls do things all the time. This leads to men not being able to cry in public, not men wanting to be women.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:14

The experiment or the analogy is flawed. Society does not make one a gender by forcing them to do something. Society tells them their interests and behavior belongs to that of a certain gender.

The only way to properly conduct that experiment would be, rather than raising the boy as a girl, to tell the boy what he does is a what girl would/should do everday.
No, you didn't read it properly. The child was raised just as a normal girl, because his penis had been destroyed during castration and they thought it would be easier for him in the future so he wouldn't get ridiculed for having no penis, and he always said he was a boy, despite being brought up as a girl, and having no reason to believe he was ever anything other than a girl.

Still waiting on the reply to post 188.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:14

May I re-ask a question, based on this point?

If you feel that societal causes are the only reason for the feeling wrong, would you then not feel wrong in the hypothetical situation that you woke up one morning as a woman?

Considering the fact that humans are incapable of naturally transforming their genders after birth, then yes of course I would feel something wrong. I would seek to find out what happened, starting with the possibility that someone had performed the operation on me and deal with the person and situation from there. If for some reason I find out that it was a bizzare natural occurance, and NOT a mutation induced by something else, then I suppose I would have to accept it.

This is very different from being born as a certain gender, though, as in the former case was a change in mid-life, while being born there was no change involved.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:18

No, you didn't read it properly. The child was raised just as a normal girl, because his penis had been destroyed during castration and they thought it would be easier for him in the future so he wouldn't get ridiculed for having no penis, and he always said he was a boy, despite being brought up as a girl, and having no reason to believe he was ever anything other than a girl.

Still waiting on the reply to post 188.

I did read it properly. Regardless of the circumstances, the analogy is flawed. Society influences people by telling them what is associated with what gender, not raise the people in the society to be a certain gender.

Looking for post 188 now.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 23:19

I disagree with the "If you are, you'll know it." argument. There is no reasoning behind it and can be used for anything. "I deserve the government giving me 10 billion dollars and exempt from taxation for life, I know it."
Your comparison is spurious, and dismissed as having nothing to do with the topic.

And you can go ahead and disagree with everything you don't understand. That doesn't make you right. I will take the word of those living through this...the people willing to go to extremes to make things right, over your 'I just don't buy it' opinion.

You seem to have failed to notice or respond to how I believe people "know" what gender they should be. I will quote it again for you.
Society told me I was female. I feel female. Society told my brother he was male. He feels female. So is society to blame for not 'telling him' enough? Is he to blame for 'rebelling' (yeah, rebelling at age 3? REBEL REBEL! :rolleyes: ).

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:20

I did read it properly. Regardless of the circumstances, the analogy is flawed. Society influences people by telling them what is associated with what gender, not raise the people in the society to be a certain gender.
It's not an analogy. It happened. Real life.

The child was raised by society as a girl, so by your logic should have felt like a girl.

Looking for post 188 now.
I await your response.

Equus

15-09-2005, 23:20

I agree with Baybollistan. When you are making changes to become what you aren't, such as plastic surgery or transgender, that is insecurity. Neither should be promoted.

So you're saying that those of us who were born ugly or deformed in some way should just learn to accept ourselves the way we are and simply gain character from the rudeness, derision, pity, and "appearance-ism" that we face every day?

Too many people base their perceptions (or at least first impressions) on how you look. Studies have shown that parents care more for attractive children than unattractive ones. Employers (especially those hiring public facing positions) want attractive employees. When was the last time you saw an unattractive waiter or waitress in anything other than a mom and pop establishment? An unattractive person in sales, marketing, or retail? An unattractive person in an executive position?

(I apologise for going off topic.)

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:22

I did read it properly. Regardless of the circumstances, the analogy is flawed. Society influences people by telling them what is associated with what gender, not raise the people in the society to be a certain gender.

Looking for post 188 now.That still doesn't mean anything. I doubt that guys that hit girls are girls inside because they feel they need to rebel against the code that boys don't hit girls.

Dempublicents1

15-09-2005, 23:22

You seem to have failed to notice or respond to how I believe people "know" what gender they should be. I will quote it again for you.

Of course, your argument is bullshit because many transgendered persons do and enjoy all the same things that society says their biological sex should. Transsexuals born in a male body often like sports, drink beer, and enjoy all the other stereotypical "male" things. They still feel that they are female.

Likewise, many males like "female things - like you - but do not feel that they are female. Many females like "male" things - like me - but do not feel that they are male.

A MTF transsexual doesn't like fluffy things and makeup and therefore think he is female. In fact, men who like fluffy things and makeup and like to dress like women are called transvestites. They do not feel that they are female, they are men who like traditionally "female" things. A MTF transsexual might despise makeup, just as some women do, but she still knows that, deep down, she is female.

Neo-Anarchists

15-09-2005, 23:22

*starts to hum*
REBEL REBEL!
"[...]You've torn your dress,
Rebel rebel, your face is a mess
Rebel rebel, how could they know?
Hot tramp, I love you so![...]"

Oh wait, we aren't singing Bowie songs?
*slinks off to the corner*

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 23:23

*starts to hum*

"[...]You've torn your dress,
Rebel rebel, your face is a mess
Rebel rebel, how could they know?
Hot tramp, I love you so![...]"

Oh wait, we aren't singing Bowie songs?
*slinks off to the corner*
:fluffle:

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:24

If I didn't 'know' that I was female, why did I tell people when I was very young (like before school, before I could really have known much about transgenderism, before I was really aware of the difference between males and females) that I was a girl? Why did I always try to be the girl in anything? Why in 'mummies and daddies' was I always the mother? Why did I tell people I was a girl before I could have even thought about it? Why did i think I was a girl before I could have possibly known anything about transgenderism? Or before I could have been 'influenced' by society, as you put it down to?

If at 2 year old when you begin to understand simple sentences, you heard "good girl" etc. then it is naturally for you to associate yourself to be a girl. If you are biologically a girl, then great, no problems there because they are stating a biological fact.

If you are born a male, then my response is Your parents or guardians are members of society, too. You may not have conscious memory of your conversations when you were less than 3 years old, but that doesn't stop them from building up your ideas of what should be male and female.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:25

*slinks off to the corner*Quit acting like you started this thread :p

EDIT: OMG I just calculated how many percent we're at and adding everything together, I got 100.01%!!!

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:27

Of course, your argument is bullshit because many transgendered persons do and enjoy all the same things that society says their biological sex should. Transsexuals born in a male body often like sports, drink beer, and enjoy all the other stereotypical "male" things. They still feel that they are female.

Likewise, many males like "female things - like you - but do not feel that they are female. Many females like "male" things - like me - but do not feel that they are male.

A MTF transsexual doesn't like fluffy things and makeup and therefore think he is female. In fact, men who like fluffy things and makeup and like to dress like women are called transvestites. They do not feel that they are female, they are men who like traditionally "female" things. A MTF transsexual might despise makeup, just as some women do, but she still knows that, deep down, she is female.
Yup. I like sport. I like football (soccer :rolleyes: ), rugby, and I love cars and motorbikes...and, well, anything with an engine. I don't particularly like makeup, frilly dresses or fluffy things, but I know I'm female.

In fact, I'm not a particularly 'feminine' person at all (well, more than most guys, but not much), so society can't have 'forced my hand'. But I'm female.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:27

It's not an analogy. It happened. Real life.

The child was raised by society as a girl, so by your logic should have felt like a girl.

I await your response.

Whether or not it was an experiment, using it for comparison IS an analogy.

I don't need to explain how so if it wasn't an experiemnt, but if it was an experiment, then the form of experimentation was incorrect as it does not accurately simulate the societal influence variable.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 23:27

If you are born a male, then my response is Your parents or guardians are members of society, too. You may not have conscious memory of your conversations when you were less than 3 years old, but that doesn't stop them from building up your ideas of what should be male and female.
Look...if you want to say that this person's (because I didn't see that quote, and you left out who said it) parents somehow brainwashed him into thinking he was a female at a tender age...then you have some seriously bizarre conspiracy theories. Still, it'd be less aggravating if you dropped the innuendoes and suggestions and just came out and stated your ridiculous 'idea'.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:29

I don't need to explain how so if it wasn't an experiemnt, but if it was an experiment, then the form of experimentation was incorrect as it does not accurately simulate the societal influence variable.And how was that?

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:30

If you are born a male, then my response is Your parents or guardians are members of society, too. You may not have conscious memory of your conversations when you were less than 3 years old, but that doesn't stop them from building up your ideas of what should be male and female.
You realise that in no way answers any of my questions? My parents raised me as a 'normal' boy. I never got called a girl by them. I called myself a girl. I even got punished when I did, but I still did it without thinking about it.

My parents particular ideas of what is male and female should, by your theory, resulted in a male gendered child. Didn't. Kind of invalidates your theory there, no?

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:30

So you're saying that those of us who were born ugly or deformed in some way should just learn to accept ourselves the way we are and simply gain character from the rudeness, derision, pity, and "appearance-ism" that we face every day?

Too many people base their perceptions (or at least first impressions) on how you look. Studies have shown that parents care more for attractive children than unattractive ones. Employers (especially those hiring public facing positions) want attractive employees. When was the last time you saw an unattractive waiter or waitress in anything other than a mom and pop establishment? An unattractive person in sales, marketing, or retail? An unattractive person in an executive position?

(I apologise for going off topic.)

If you read my post you will notice that I said medical science is acceptable for defects and deformities. If you were naturally born "ugly" and not deformed, then yes, I am saying you should accept it. I've exchanged pictures with people online during my teen years and get ignored or blocked immediately after several times before, and I'm dealing with it fine. I'm not talking about beauty on the inside like the movie Shallow Hal advocates either, I do think that obesity is hideous and not healthy, but being attractive doesn't mean you feel any better, you will be more often concerned whether your partner likes you for you and not your body.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:31

because I didn't see that quote, and you left out who said it
'twas me.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:33

That still doesn't mean anything. I doubt that guys that hit girls are girls inside because they feel they need to rebel against the code that boys don't hit girls.

That's chivilry, not masculine vs feminine traits

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:35

sex should. Transsexuals born in a male body often like sports, drink beer, and enjoy all the other stereotypical "male" things. They still feel that they are female.

I would like to see the statistical results or articles to back that claim as I believe that is agains tpopular belief.

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 23:35

'twas me.
Ah. You were the one with the parents who treated you like a girl until you were almost three, then turned around and started punishing you for acting like a girl and trying to socialise you as a boy? What kind of mad scientists raised you? What? That was all supposition and didn't acutally happen? IMAGINE THAT! :headbang:

Sinuhue

15-09-2005, 23:36

I would like to see the statistical results or articles to back that claim as I believe that is agains tpopular belief.
Popular belief is often uneducated belief.

Why don't YOU provide some stats showing that MTFs are all prancing nannys in high heels, driving pink cadillacs?

It'd be neat...because so far it seems like you just don't DO proof.

And with that, I bid you all a good night!

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:37

Ah. You were the one with the parents who treated you like a girl until you were almost three, then turned around and started punishing you for acting like a girl and trying to socialise you as a boy? What kind of mad scientists raised you? What? That was all supposition and didn't acutally happen? IMAGINE THAT! :headbang:
:D

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:37

That's chivilry, not masculine vs feminine traitsWomen aren't expected to be chivalrous by society. It has everything to do with what is girly and what is not.
By your logic, society telling you what you are doing makes you transsexual. That means that being told that boys don't do something means that girls do, i.e. your likes are more akin to those of a girl than a boy. This, however, has nothing to do with transgender issues, since I am male, both physically and mentally. I've heard stuff like that quite a lot of times and I'm not "confused" as to which gender I am.
Your hypothesis doesn't hold.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:40

You realise that in no way answers any of my questions? My parents raised me as a 'normal' boy. I never got called a girl by them. I called myself a girl. I even got punished when I did, but I still did it without thinking about it.

My parents particular ideas of what is male and female should, by your theory, resulted in a male gendered child. Didn't. Kind of invalidates your theory there, no?

No. What I am saying is that whatever you learned before you start calling yourself a girl, which I would say either from parents, television, other children, siblings, etc. taught you that the things you like and do are feminine.

If you are saying that you are born a male and believe you are female, and what I have said has nothing to do with that, I would love to hear your PoV, preferrably outside of htis cluttered mess (telegrams) so I'm not constantly confused who I'm talking to.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:42

Women aren't expected to be chivalrous by society. It has everything to do with what is girly and what is not.
By your logic, society telling you what you are doing makes you transsexual. That means that being told that boys don't do something means that girls do, i.e. your likes are more akin to those of a girl than a boy. This, however, has nothing to do with transgender issues, since I am male, both physically and mentally. I've heard stuff like that quite a lot of times and I'm not "confused" as to which gender I am.
Your hypothesis doesn't hold.

I don't see why not, that just means you are perfectly confident of yourself and independant from society's pressures. That makes you the same as me. That is a great thing but does not invalidate my argument.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:45

I don't see why not, that just means you are perfectly confident of yourself and independant from society's pressures. That makes you the same as me. That is a great thing but does not invalidate my argument.I'm not secure and confident. It does invalidate your arguement.

Nadkor

15-09-2005, 23:47

No. What I am saying is that whatever you learned before you start calling yourself a girl, which I would say either from parents, television, other children, siblings, etc. taught you that the things you like and do are feminine.
I refer you to this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9645919&postcount=213) post.

I'm actually more 'masculine' in my behaviour than several of my guy friends who firmly believe they are male. They were hugely shocked when I told them.

And as for the line "before you start calling yourself a girl", from what I know from my parents, I always said I was a girl, I never called myself a boy...until I learnt that calling myself a girl = punishment.

If you are saying that you are born a male and believe you are female, and what I have said has nothing to do with that, I would love to hear your PoV, preferrably outside of htis cluttered mess (telegrams) so I'm not constantly confused who I'm talking to.
I would rather keep it here so others can contribute as they see fit.

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:48

I'm not secure and confident. It does invalidate your arguement.

You're flip-flopping. You just said you aren't confused what gender you are, you are biologically a male and believe yourself a male. That means you are secure and confident about your gender.

If you mean you aren't secure and confident about other issues such as your financial capabilities, then that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Laerod

15-09-2005, 23:52

You're flip-flopping. You just said you aren't confused what gender you are, you are biologically a male and believe yourself a male. That means you are secure and confident about your gender.

If you mean you aren't secure and confident about other issues such as your financial capabilities, then that has nothing to do with the discussion.I'm not secure nor confident, mainly due to society's influence. My gender just isn't subject to that. Society making me insecure didn't make me feel any less male than I feel like. I'm not flip flopping at all.
I'm "secure" and "sure" insofar as my guess that I'm both mentally and physically male. Calling me emotionally secure is very erroneous, however (I may be more secure now, but there were certain times when I was younger that this was not the case. Gender never played an issue, however).

Democras

15-09-2005, 23:53

I refer you to this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9645919&postcount=213) post.

I would like to hear your reasoning for claiming yourself to be a female. If you were the one who said "I just know it" then I'm sorry I can't accept an argument without reasoning.

The Precursors

15-09-2005, 23:57

This was inspired by something from another thread (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9640150&postcount=96).

Is it rape for a transgendered person to have sex with another person without informing said other of the fact that they are trangendered?

Ofcourse it's not rape! But I personally sure would give the dishonest scum a blue eye and a hurting nose if it happened to me. Then he/she/it could sue me unfortunatly but it just might be worth it.

I really don't mind much for padded bras and stuff like that. The woman still hans't lied about what she is, only about the proportion of her boobs. A man posing as a woman lies about his/her whole person as he/she knows that the victim probably doesn't know about his/her deciet. A person who was showed a BMW that was going to be his for christimas and who got that BMW with a crappy Trabant engine won't be happy.

Ruloah

16-09-2005, 00:04

There can be other reasons for a guy to suddenly decide that he is really a woman.

After our mother passed away, my younger brother began to dress like her. I was fortunate enough not to witness this myself, but am going on my father's testimony. Then when our father passed away, my brother decided that he needed to become a woman. I don't know what happened after that, because contact was violently severed due to his driving by my home and firing a gun, and also breaking down our youngest brother's apartment door for no apparent reason. I did/do feel sorry for his wife and children, because they started with a mom and dad, and presumably ended up with two mommies. Hopefully any doctor would examine him psychologically before cutting anything off...

Also, some people talk as if boys are always bad, and girls are good. So maybe a little child decides that he wants to be what is good, and therefore he must be a girl?

Nadkor

16-09-2005, 00:04

I would like to hear your reasoning for claiming yourself to be a female. If you were the one who said "I just know it" then I'm sorry I can't accept an argument without reasoning.
Tell me, in your heart of hearts, what is your gender?

Not your sex, your gender.

Also, how do you know this? I would like to hear your reasonaing for claiming your gender.

Remember, not your sex.

If you say "I just know it" then I'm sorry I can't accept an argument without reasoning.

Remember, gender, not exclusively related to sex.

Laerod

16-09-2005, 00:06

Nadkor

16-09-2005, 00:09

There can be other reasons for a guy to suddenly decide that he is really a woman.
I should probably point out at this juncture that most transexuals don't just "decide" they're in the wrong body.

Also, some people talk as if boys are always bad, and girls are good. So maybe a little child decides that he wants to be what is good, and therefore he must be a girl?
How does this apply to female -> male transexuals?

Democras

16-09-2005, 00:15

Tell me, in your heart of hearts, what is your gender?

Not your sex, your gender.

Also, how do you know this? I would like to hear your reasonaing for claiming your gender.

Remember, not your sex.

If you say "I just know it" then I'm sorry I can't accept an argument without reasoning.

Remember, gender, not exclusively related to sex.

You may not get what you're looking for since I am the one who said that "you should be proud of who you are."

I am a male because I am born a male. I like, do things, and say things that others consider feminine, but that doesn't change the fact that I am male. I dont' believe anything that you think or do should be any determinant of your gender. The mind is asexual.

ADD: Your turn. And please answer the question before your try to counter-ask it next time.

Ruloah

16-09-2005, 00:16

I should probably point out at this juncture that most transexuals don't just "decide" they're in the wrong body.

How does this apply to female -> male transexuals?

obviously, the other way round---if parents/people say being a girl is bad/nasty, but being a boy is good/pure, then a child might want to be a boy...

Nadkor

16-09-2005, 00:20

You may not get what you're looking for since I am the one who said that "you should be proud of who you are."

I am a male because I am born a male. I like, do things, and say things that others consider feminine, but that doesn't change the fact that I am male. I dont' believe anything that you think or do should be any determinant of your gender. The mind is asexual.

ADD: Your turn. And please answer the question before your try to counter-ask it next time.
I am a female because I am born a female. I like, do things, and say things that others consider masculine, but that doesn't change the fact that I am female. I don't believe anything that you think or do should be any determinant of your gender. The mind is sexual.

As for being who you are...to not undergo sexual reassignment would be a denial of who I am.

Nadkor

16-09-2005, 00:23

obviously, the other way round---if parents/people say being a girl is bad/nasty, but being a boy is good/pure, then a child might want to be a boy...
And if the child is an only child?

Democras

16-09-2005, 00:26

I am a female because I am born a female. I like, do things, and say things that others consider masculine, but that doesn't change the fact that I am female. I don't believe anything that you think or do should be any determinant of your gender. The mind is sexual.

As for being who you are...to not undergo sexual reassignment would be a denial of who I am.

If you are under the pressumption that the mind is sexual, then you can't simply paraphrase what I have said. Why are you female, then?

I believe I am a male under the pressumption that the mind is asexual, that the only determinant of one's gender is one's physiology. I don't believe the mind is sexual because nothing one thinks should be attributed to a gender role; that would be sexism.

ADD: I have to go now but if you are going to make a response to me please telegram it or at least the link to the page it is on to me so I can address to it later.

Fresh2death

16-09-2005, 00:29

it is not rape because the other person was not unwilling. however it is very WRONG!!!

Nadkor

16-09-2005, 00:34

If you are under the pressumption that the mind is sexual, then you can't simply paraphrase what I have said. Why are you female, then?
I can easily paraphrase what you said. I just did, did you not read it? I believe I was born with a female mind. It really is that simple.

In fact, the Council of Europe's XXIIIrd Colloquy on European Law suggested that "there is now evidence to believe that in transsexuals the sexual differentiation process of the brain taking place in the first years after birth has not followed the course anticipated of the preceding criteria of sex (chromosomal, gonadal and genital)"

Or the fact that in a study of 6 male to female transexuals, the size of their Hypothalamus was of female size or smaller, regardless of hormone treatment.

I believe I am a male under the pressumption that the mind is asexual,
That would be a daft presumption to make. If the mind was asexual then how could you believe your gender is male?

that the only determinant of one's gender is one's physiology. I don't believe the mind is sexual because nothing one thinks should be attributed to a gender role; that would be sexism.
Despite the fact that there are long acknowledged differences between how female and male brains react in certain situations?

The Journal of Neuroscience has an interesting page here (http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/gender.brain.html)

ADD: I have to go now but if you are going to make a response to me please telegram it or at least the link to the page it is on to me so I can address to it later.
I'll just keep posting here, thanks.

Emeroe

16-09-2005, 00:51

Well you're in luck. I got my trusty Criminal Law book (it's American law, though, but American law derives largely from British law since we're your bastard, rebel child) and I opened it up and guess what? The first page I saw had the definition of rape. What a coinkidink.

As to the whole rape thing, it's not rape because rape involves force or a threat of force in most cases, with certain exceptions. Your situation doesn't fall under any of these exceptions. HOWEVER, there is something under "Sexual Assault" that might be interpreted as applicable to your situation. The following definition of sexual assault is taken from Criminal Law and Its Processes (Kadish & Schulhofer, 2001):

"A person who has sexual contact with another not his spouse, or causes such other to have sexual conduct with him, is guilty of sexual assault, a misdemeanor, if: (1) he knows that the contact is offensive to the other person..."

This depends on a certain required knowledge that the actor would have to possess at the time of sexual relations. Usually, when trying to determine what someone else knows, you base that determination on what a "reasonable" or average person would know.

So you have to ask the question: "Would an average person with average empathy and morals know that such a thing WOULD (not might) be offensive to another "reasonable" or average person?"

Making an assertion of what someone WOULD know is a tough thing to do. It's like saying, "If I grab some stranger's buns, WOULD I be certain in knowing that she would take offense if she is an average or "reasonable" person?" You'd probably have to answer "yes" to this, but even then it might not be a "beyond a reasonable doubt 'yes' ".

If this person is in America, they would almost certainly have cause for a civil suit, but it might not float in criminal court. Even if it did, the most the TV is looking at is a misdemeanor.
I don't know how you Brits run things, however... :p

Hope that's somewhat helpful.

Dempublicents1

16-09-2005, 02:59

I would like to see the statistical results or articles to back that claim as I believe that is agains tpopular belief.

I don't have articles for that sort of thing. There aren't exactly many studies on, "Hey, trannssexual, do you like sports?"

I have, however, actually taken the time to talk to people, all sorts of people. I have listened to people's own accounts of their experiences. I have tried to empathize with them. It isn't easy, as I've never had their problem, my gender and biological sex are the same. I don't like many traditionally "girly" things - in fact, I think most of them are silly. I don't have many female friends - most of my buddies are male. I am attracted to men most of the time, but am also attracted to women. However, I still know that I am 100% female. The difference between you and I is that I can actually attempt to empathize with someone going through something I (thankfully) have not had to go through.

Dempublicents1

16-09-2005, 03:08

I really don't mind much for padded bras and stuff like that. The woman still hans't lied about what she is, only about the proportion of her boobs.

A MTF transsexual hasn't lied about what she is, in fact she may not have lied at all and simply neglected to tell you what her genitals happen to be - or what they once were.

Are you suggesting that your genitals determine who and what you are?

A man posing as a woman lies about his/her whole person as he/she knows that the victim probably doesn't know about his/her deciet.

We aren't talking about a man posing as a woman. We are talking about a woman who happens to have or have had a penis being exactly what she is.

A person who was showed a BMW that was going to be his for christimas and who got that BMW with a crappy Trabant engine won't be happy.

Poor analogy, unless you are saying that transsexuals are "bad".

A better analogy would be a person who drove a car, enjoyed the hell out of it, bought it, and then found out it had metal ashtrays when he had assumed it had plastic ashtrays.

Neutered Sputniks

16-09-2005, 03:47

Poor analogy, unless you are saying that transsexuals are "bad".

A better analogy would be a person who drove a car, enjoyed the hell out of it, bought it, and then found out it had metal ashtrays when he had assumed it had plastic ashtrays.

Except that it's a bit more important than simply the kind of ashtrays the car has.

How about this analogy:

Ever seen those Mini Cooper commercials where the con artists sell fake minis? You're "buying" something that isnt what it seems except on the outside. It'd be like buying an old muscle car and then finding out later that the muscle car was the body style you wanted but the rest of the car was actualy a different muscle car. It's not what you paid for. You bought a "Trans-am", and then found out later that it was really a "Camaro." They're not the same car - no matter what engine you put under the hood. I buy a Trans-am, I want a goddamn Trans-am. Not a Camaro with bodywork done...

Dempublicents1

16-09-2005, 03:55

Except that it's a bit more important than simply the kind of ashtrays the car has.

How about this analogy:

Ever seen those Mini Cooper commercials where the con artists sell fake minis? You're "buying" something that isnt what it seems except on the outside. It'd be like buying an old muscle car and then finding out later that the muscle car was the body style you wanted but the rest of the car was actualy a different muscle car. It's not what you paid for. You bought a "Trans-am", and then found out later that it was really a "Camaro." They're not the same car - no matter what engine you put under the hood. I buy a Trans-am, I want a goddamn Trans-am. Not a Camaro with bodywork done...

So your entire interest in a person is in their physical structure? How very shallow you are.

Most people are interested in the person, not their body.

Sildavya

16-09-2005, 03:58

Except that it's a bit more important than simply the kind of ashtrays the car has.

How about this analogy:

Ever seen those Mini Cooper commercials where the con artists sell fake minis? You're "buying" something that isnt what it seems except on the outside. It'd be like buying an old muscle car and then finding out later that the muscle car was the body style you wanted but the rest of the car was actualy a different muscle car. It's not what you paid for. You bought a "Trans-am", and then found out later that it was really a "Camaro." They're not the same car - no matter what engine you put under the hood. I buy a Trans-am, I want a goddamn Trans-am. Not a Camaro with bodywork done...

That's a good anology...If you're talking about mail-order brides or prostitutes.

NationStates Jolt Archive

Is this rape?