NationStates Jolt Archive

After trying to start this thread earlier, then screwing up by hitting the wrong htokey since I was using a mac and then trying to fix my mistake and making the thread basically unreadable... I decided to wait till I could get on a real computer before doing it heh... Anyway, on to the topic



One of my pet peeves is how people acccuse the penal system of being racist or argue against the death penalty by saying "look at the disproportionate amount of black people." I think that those people are totally full of shit.

For example, look at this data on homicides:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Basically, it says that a Black person is more than 7 times as likely to commit a homicide as a white person. Now im not saying that this is because blacks are in any way inferior... I think that its because of their "culture" and the fact that a lot of them dont think they can do much better.

But the fact is, that the only reason they are in prison is because they commit more crimes. There is no hidden agenda that judges, prosecuters, and police have that wants to fill death row and the rest of the prison system with african americans.


P.S. to avoid making the mistake i made earlier.. can someone tell me how to delete the first post of a thread you added by mistake? I couldnt find the option.

Basically, it says that a Black person is more than 7 times as likely to commit a homicide as a white person.

No, what it says is that a Black person is 7 times more likely to be found guilty of homicide than a white person. Whether they did in fact commit the crime is a different matter, and remains to be seen.

My common sense tells me that blacks tend to be poorer then average % wise that is, then whites. And that poorer people tend to flock around cities, and cities tend to have a higher percentage of police coverage, so your likelyhood of getting arrested for a crime is much higher in New York, then say Stillwater, Oklahoma. Therefore youll have more blacks in jail then whites just due to percentages and where they live.

Blacks have crimminal tendices, becuse thery are closely related to monkeys,and they have no sence of right and wrong.

Rubbish. I gather basic logic is beyond you.

Assuming all things are equal, one could reasonably assert that the reason that there are more blacks in prison is simply because more blacks are caught committing crimes. This does not allow you to make the inference that blacks commit more crime however.

No wonder that this country doesn't have a cricket team.

I wonder if they re-calibrated those statistics as Rich vs. Poor (or Poor vs. Everyone Else) as opposed to Black vs. White. I imagine the statistics would be even more significant.

After trying to start this thread earlier, then screwing up by hitting the wrong htokey since I was using a mac and then trying to fix my mistake and making the thread basically unreadable... I decided to wait till I could get on a real computer before doing it heh... Anyway, on to the topic



One of my pet peeves is how people acccuse the penal system of being racist or argue against the death penalty by saying "look at the disproportionate amount of black people." I think that those people are totally full of shit.

For example, look at this data on homicides:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Basically, it says that a Black person is more than 7 times as likely to commit a homicide as a white person. Now im not saying that this is because blacks are in any way inferior... I think that its because of their "culture" and the fact that a lot of them dont think they can do much better.

But the fact is, that the only reason they are in prison is because they commit more crimes. There is no hidden agenda that judges, prosecuters, and police have that wants to fill death row and the rest of the prison system with african americans.


P.S. to avoid making the mistake i made earlier.. can someone tell me how to delete the first post of a thread you added by mistake? I couldnt find the option.

Even supposing your analysis is correct (which it is not, because as noted, it says that they are convicted at 7 times the rate of whites, not that they are guilty at 7 times the rate of whites), it isn't the fact that a person is black that makes them commit violent crime. Far more often, it's the fact that they are poor that makes them commit violent crime. If you were to cross-index those statistics for socio-economic status, you would find a far more prevalent correlation than that offered by race to crime statistics.

Rubbish. I gather basic logic is beyond you.

Assuming all things are equal, one could reasonably assert that the reason that there are more blacks in prison is simply because more blacks are caught committing crimes. This does not allow you to make the inference that blacks commit more crime however.

No wonder that this country doesn't have a cricket team.

So you are telling me the vast majority of white murderers arent caught... while the majority of black murderers are?

Edit: Just wanted to say, I am not saying Black people are genetically predisposed to kill or anything of that sort. I am saying that the penal system is not racist, and that the people in the prisons are there because they commit crimes, not because of weird ass conspiracy theories.

Poverty and culture do contribute to the crime rates among African Americans, but its still a proven fact that the crime rates are much higher than among other groups.

No, what it says is that a Black person is 7 times more likely to be found guilty of homicide than a white person. Whether they did in fact commit the crime is a different matter, and remains to be seen.

Since it is impossible to know reguardless, baring super damning evdience like video ect ect ect, if anybody commits a crime, your arguement is invalid and a fallacy.

Good God,Man!! You cant discuss this topic!!

No, what it says is that a Black person is 7 times more likely to be found guilty of homicide than a white person. Whether they did in fact commit the crime is a different matter, and remains to be seen.

I can't imagine that the justice system is that ineffectual that 6 of 7 whites are let free after committing murder, or that 6 of 7 blacks are wrongly convicted of murder.

No, what it says is that a Black person is 7 times more likely to be found guilty of homicide than a white person. Whether they did in fact commit the crime is a different matter, and remains to be seen.


I could give a rats ass about this topic, but your argument in it doesn't hold water. I clicked the link because of what you said, but if what you said was a legitimate argument, then this other fact from the same site would be susceptible to you logic/deduction as well...

Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002

In which case, you would then say that that a black person would be six time more likely to be found murdered than a white person. Whether they did in fact die of murder is a different mater and remains to be seen.

Now you see, that doesn't really work then does it? And since it is well known that most people who are murdered are killed by someone they know and associate with, and since African Americans are six times more likely to be murdered than Caucasian Americans, there is no reason for you to suggest that they as a majority of the murdered group 'weren't' killed by other people of similar background and ethnicity.

I think it is safe to assume that the stats are real, there is no data to suggest otherwise, your baseless accusation to the contrary notwithstanding.

Or because of mandatory sentencing laws dealing with drug charges?

black are also treated more harshly by the justice system. they are more likely to be prosecuted for crimes they are arrested for, more likely to have the harsher crime charged against them, less likely to have good legal representation. it all adds up.

A few months ago, I was watching a special on Discovery Health channel(I think)and on the program, it was investigating why people commit crimes, more specifically murder. It brought up the statistic that, "Even though Black people make up 12% of the population in the U.S., they commit 60% of the crimes." But, they weren't saying that being black makes them predisposed to commiting crime, it's the fact that the majority of black people live in poverty and in rough conditions which causes them to commit crimes.

:)

Since it is impossible to know reguardless, baring super damning evdience like video ect ect ect, if anybody commits a crime, your arguement is invalid and a fallacy.

Nope: because the source of the figures is from the American Department of Justice and is based on the figures of those convicted of homicide.

Next time before you start hurling accusations of invalidity at people, I reckon you should check up on your basic logic - I am simply stating what the webpage states, whereas the original poster and yourself are adding in the additional premise that the American courts are either infallible, or are equally fallible regardless of the race of someone who commited a crime or is convicted of it.

Blacks have crimminal tendices, becuse thery are closely related to monkeys,and they have no sence of right and wrong.

Yawn.


Care to provide some evidence of these claims?

So you are telling me the vast majority of white murderers arent caught... while the majority of black murderers are?

Edit: Just wanted to say, I am not saying Black people are genetically predisposed to kill or anything of that sort. I am saying that the penal system is not racist, and that the people in the prisons are there because they commit crimes, not because of weird ass conspiracy theories.

Poverty and culture do contribute to the crime rates among African Americans, but its still a proven fact that the crime rates are much higher than among other groups.

I am not saying anything of the sort. You are. You are setting out to prove what you conclude, and I simply pointed out that your logic was flawed. After all, straight away you identified one of the problems with your thesis.

Maybe there is also a difference in conviction rates. Who knows. But you cannot simply make these blanket statements.

I could give a rats ass about this topic, but your argument in it doesn't hold water. I clicked the link because of what you said, but if what you said was a legitimate argument, then this other fact from the same site would be susceptible to you logic/deduction as well...

Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002

In which case, you would then say that that a black person would be six time more likely to be found murdered than a white person. Whether they did in fact die of murder is a different mater and remains to be seen.

Are you claiming that there is no actual difference between being found guilty of a crime in a court of law and actually having committed that crime? If so then any mechanisms that the US currently has for appealing or overturning findings in criminal convictions are absolutely needless.

Now you see, that doesn't really work then does it? And since it is well known that most people who are murdered are killed by someone they know and associate with, and since African Americans are six times more likely to be murdered than Caucasian Americans, there is no reason for you to suggest that they as a majority of the murdered group 'weren't' killed by other people of similar background and ethnicity.

Your argument here would be much more effective if black people only knew or associated with black people, while caucasians only knew or associated with caucasians.

When 9 or 10 murders occur in the same general area with the same general M.O. what race suspect is the FBI going to be looking for?

I am not saying anything of the sort. You are. You are setting out to prove what you conclude, and I simply pointed out that your logic was flawed. After all, straight away you identified one of the problems with your thesis.

Maybe there is also a difference in conviction rates. Who knows. But you cannot simply make these blanket statements.

The blanket statement I was attempting to make is the fact that the majority of people convicted of murder are black because the majority of people that murder are black. the reason they murder is irrelevant.

what im trying to say is the argument that the prison system is racist because of its makeup is not true, because all it does is incarcerate criminals. the reasons that these people are criminals is a different argument altogether

Your argument here would be much more effective if black people only knew or associated with black people, while caucasians only knew or associated with caucasians.

So, you do realize that what you are saying, what you are advocating is the theory that the majority of murdered African Americans are murdered by white people who never get caught and an innocent African American is shanghaied into serving time for those crimes that they did not commit, to hide the fact from the public that whites are killing off all the African Americans by a 6 to 1 ratio?

I think not. Conspiracy theory be damned it’s not a theory anymore it’s a delusion.

The blanket statement I was attempting to make is the fact that the majority of people convicted of murder are black because the majoirt of people that murder are black. the reason they murder is irrelevant.

what im trying to say is the argument that the prison system is racist because of its makeup is not true, because all it does is incarcerate criminals. the reasons that these people are criminals is a different argument altogether

You simply cannot make that statement from the evidence you presented.

What if, in fact, juries were twenty times more likely to convict black people than white? In that case, the evidence you presented would indicate that white people in fact committed far more crimes than blacks.

I will grant that your theory is one which is possible, and makes sense, but in light of the lack of other data, is no more or less probable than any other, and therefore indeterminate.

So as I said, you simply cannot make sweeping statements of this type. And this is why your country does not have a cricket team.

A few months ago, I was watching a special on Discovery Health channel(I think)and on the program, it was investigating why people commit crimes, more specifically murder. It brought up the statistic that, "Even though Black people make up 12% of the population in the U.S., they commit 60% of the crimes." But, they weren't saying that being black makes them predisposed to commiting crime, it's the fact that the majority of black people live in poverty and in rough conditions which causes them to commit crimes.

:)I would resist the temdancy to consign responsibility to socioeconomic realities, harsh though they may be. Pvery (other than in the most extreme cases) does not cause people to commit crimes.

Does the American justice system also have sentencing provisions that allow a judge to say, for example, "pay a $5000 fine OR do six months in jail"? That's another way to keep poor people locked up while letting rich folks go free, and if there is a correlation between income and racial background that adds to the problem you speak of.

I think not. Conspiracy theory be damned it’s not a theory anymore it’s a delusion.

No, what I am saying is that we should be suspicious of figure presented to us in the format 'Type X of people commit this kind of crime 7 times more often than type Y of people', when the actual figures state 'Type X of people are convicted and found guilty of this kind of crime 7 times more often than type Y of people'.

You simply cannot make that statement from the evidence you presented.

What if, in fact, juries were twenty times more likely to convict black people than white? In that case, the evidence you presented would indicate that white people in fact committed far more crimes than blacks.

I will grant that your theory is one which is possible, and makes sense, but in light of the lack of other data, is no more or less probable than any other, and therefore indeterminate.

So as I said, you simply cannot make sweeping statements of this type. And this is why your country does not have a cricket team.


I accept that my hypothesis isnt perfect, but its the most plausible inferance from the data availiable. Scientists use the best possible theory every single day, since they almost never have every single bit of possible evidence in front of them.

It is no where near plausible that such a huge margin (7:1) could happen just because juries were racist. I'd believe it in 1960, maybe... but nowadays juries have people from all walks of life on them, and while maybe more white murderers get off than black murderers... it cant be a 6 to 1 ratio.... its impossible.

edit:

Does the American justice system also have sentencing provisions that allow a judge to say, for example, "pay a $5000 fine OR do six months in jail"? That's another way to keep poor people locked up while letting rich folks go free, and if there is a correlation between income and racial background that adds to the problem you speak of.

Nope... you can get out on bail (usually) while the trial is taking place, but after its over, you dont have that option (if you were convicted). And poor people can get out on bail just as easily, because judges scale the price based on how much they think you can afford (or get from a bail bondsman).

The correlation between income and not getting convicted is just because rich people can afford better lawyers... but I dont think theres a lawyer in the world that can get 6/7th of his clients off just because most of them are (relatively) richer.

Does the American justice system also have sentencing provisions that allow a judge to say, for example, "pay a $5000 fine OR do six months in jail"? That's another way to keep poor people locked up while letting rich folks go free, and if there is a correlation between income and racial background that adds to the problem you speak of. good point! other than the concept of "bail" are there such provisions in Canada?


ps. Always good to see another vancouverite on the forums. :)

Does the American justice system also have sentencing provisions that allow a judge to say, for example, "pay a $5000 fine OR do six months in jail"? That's another way to keep poor people locked up while letting rich folks go free, and if there is a correlation between income and racial background that adds to the problem you speak of.

They have something even better. If you pay your lawyer enough you might get away with it altogether. Worked for OJ....oh but he's black. :rolleyes:

I accept that my hypothesis isnt perfect, but its the most plausible inferance from the data availiable. Scientists use the best possible theory every single day, since they almost never have every single bit of possible evidence in front of them.

It is no where near plausible that such a huge margin (7:1) could happen just because juries were racist. I'd believe it in 1960, maybe... but nowadays juries have people from all walks of life on them, and while maybe more white murderers get off than black murderers... it cant be a 6 to 1 ratio.... its impossible.

Well now you are talking about merely plausible. Yet between us we have identified two possible biases. There may be other factors not yet identified which would quickly normalise your statistic.

As I said, absent other evidence you cannot make the inference that you did. It is no more, or less, "plausible" than any other.

No, what I am saying is that we should be suspicious of figure presented to us in the format 'Type X of people commit this kind of crime 7 times more often than type Y of people', when the actual figures state 'Type X of people are convicted and found guilty of this kind of crime 7 times more often than type Y of people'.

I actually agree that the courts are not 'racially' blind, as they should be. My point was that your argument does not work in this case because the 7-1 ratio was previously substantiated with the 'victims' being 6-1 with the majority against the African Americans as well.

You cannot prove that the courts are unjust for locking up people who committed crimes (they based their answers on the number of victims as well, validating their particular argument). To prove racism etc., you must show how the courts lock up some people up for longer periods of time for the same crimes as others with lesser sentences (just an example).

good point! other than the concept of "bail" are there such provisions in Canada?

ps. Always good to see another vancouverite on the forums. :)
I don't know, I've always been a good boy.

ps - *wave* from Davie & Denman

oooh good location!

I'm on the vancouver side....Cambie&18th

I actually agree that the courts are not 'racially' blind, as they should be. My point was that your argument does not work in this case because the 7-1 ratio was previously substantiated with the 'victims' being 6-1 with the majority against the African Americans as well.

This only works as validation if the figures showing that most homicides are in fact intra-racial rather than inter-racial has another source separate from the convictions which are summed up here, otherwise we seem to be engaged in a circular operation.

Anyone know where a statistic on what % of murders are "solved" (i.e. have a conviction) can be found?

If the vast majority of murders end in a conviction, then the argument that white people dont get convicted of their crimes is moot... I can't find that specific number though.

Blacks have crimminal tendices, becuse thery are closely related to monkeys,and they have no sence of right and wrong.
i love you. want a lap dance?

After trying to start this thread earlier, then screwing up by hitting the wrong htokey since I was using a mac and then trying to fix my mistake and making the thread basically unreadable... I decided to wait till I could get on a real computer before doing it heh... Anyway, on to the topic



One of my pet peeves is how people acccuse the penal system of being racist or argue against the death penalty by saying "look at the disproportionate amount of black people." I think that those people are totally full of shit.

For example, look at this data on homicides:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Basically, it says that a Black person is more than 7 times as likely to commit a homicide as a white person. Now im not saying that this is because blacks are in any way inferior... I think that its because of their "culture" and the fact that a lot of them dont think they can do much better.

But the fact is, that the only reason they are in prison is because they commit more crimes. There is no hidden agenda that judges, prosecuters, and police have that wants to fill death row and the rest of the prison system with african americans.


P.S. to avoid making the mistake i made earlier.. can someone tell me how to delete the first post of a thread you added by mistake? I couldnt find the option.

I don't know if this is a digression of sorts but the title of this thread made me think of this...

Serial killers: they are basically an American exclusive. Since 1960, over 100 people have been charged with killing more than 10 people. In the rest of the western world, only 2 people have been charged with the same crime. Serial killers tend to be invariably male, white, anglosaxon and protestant: Ed Gein, Charles Manson, Donald Evans, Ted Bundy, Edmund Kemper, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Gary Heidnik, Bobby Joe Long, Arthur Shawcross, Joel Rifkin, William Suff, Dennis Nilsen, Charles Whitman, Randy Kraft, John Christie, John Wesley Dodd,... not to mention the Unabomber and the perpetrators of the Oklahoma bombing. We have news of only one serial killer who was a woman (Virginia McGinnis) and only two who were not white (Wayne Williams and Henry Louis Wallace),

The reason Blacks commit more crimes, is becuase more of the black populace are concentrated in inner cities.
Poverty is rampant, and opportunites for gainful employment are not.
Sometimes, just to put food on the table, you gotta steal it.

The lack of employment opportunities, poor educatiuonal systems, and lack of social reform is the what cuase so many blacks to commit crimes.
It isnt becuase the black person "naturally gravitates to a life of crime", or any other such thing.

Its simply so many poor people, concentrated in the worst parts of american metropolises.

Any other racially motivated conclusions such as "theyre just dumb monkeys", makes a persoan a rascist asshole, and not worth the breath they draw.

This entire discussion is beside the point.

Even if the figures are correct, and I agree with several posters that there are reasons to be skeptical about them, murder has little to do with why the prison population is disproportionately black.

Why? Because murderers are an extreme minority of inmates.

The great bulk of the U.S. prison population is made up of people convicted of drug-crimes.

Now, here's the thing about drugs: There is no evidence whatsoever that blacks are more likely than whites to use drugs. However, whites live in peaceful, organized communities in which drug use is likely to occur indoors at home, and drug sales are likely to be made only between people who know each other.

Blacks live predominantly in poor, chaotic ghettos in which they are likely to buy and sell drugs on the street, very probably from people they do not know.

Black drug users are simply much more arrestable than white drug users.

What's worse is that lawmakers knew this twenty years ago when they initiated the "War on Drugs." They also knew that law enforcement and imprisonment is the worst way to deal with drugs -- no, not because of any "victimless" argument, but because it simply does not work. The body of scientific data to support this is simply overwhelming.

Thus, the "War on Drugs" and the "hard on crime" rhetoric really look like a new "cleaned up" version of racist campaigning: capture the white vote by telling them what you're going to do to black people.

This entire discussion is beside the point.

Even if the figures are correct, and I agree with several posters that there are reasons to be skeptical about them, murder has little to do with why the prison population is disproportionately black.

Why? Because murderers are an extreme minority of inmates.

The great bulk of the U.S. prison population is made up of people convicted of drug-crimes.

Now, here's the thing about drugs: There is no evidence whatsoever that blacks are more likely than whites to use drugs. However, whites live in peaceful, organized communities in which drug use is likely to occur indoors at home, and drug sales are likely to be made only between people who know each other.

Blacks live predominantly in poor, chaotic ghettos in which they are likely to buy and sell drugs on the street, very probably from people they do not know.

Black drug users are simply much more arrestable than white drug users.

What's worse is that lawmakers knew this twenty years ago when they initiated the "War on Drugs." They also knew that law enforcement and imprisonment is the worst way to deal with drugs -- no, not because of any "victimless" argument, but because it simply does not work. The body of scientific data to support this is simply overwhelming.

Thus, the "War on Drugs" and the "hard on crime" rhetoric really look like a new "cleaned up" version of racist campaigning: capture the white vote by telling them what you're going to do to black people.

Wow! For once Elric, I agree with you. Completely. And I feel no need to engage you in silly arguments, for the sake of it.

(Though I will throw in the caveat that I don't believe that drug users are the "great bulk". My understanding is that it is around 60%. If you have better figures I will gladly recieve them however, but this is a minor point).

We have the same problem with Maori.

60% percent IS a great bulk.

Thats nearly 2/3.

ten percent more than half.

Certainly a majority, even.

We have the same problem with Maori.


No you dont, I saw "Whale Rider".

=)

No you dont, I saw "Whale Rider".

=)
She stole the whale! :p

What's worse is that lawmakers knew this twenty years ago when they initiated the "War on Drugs." They also knew that law enforcement and imprisonment is the worst way to deal with drugs -- no, not because of any "victimless" argument, but because it simply does not work. The body of scientific data to support this is simply overwhelming.

Care to provide said "overwhelming scientific evidence"?

In never saw that movie though.

(Though I will throw in the caveat that I don't believe that drug users are the "great bulk". My understanding is that it is around 60%. If you have better figures I will gladly recieve them however, but this is a minor point).

Indeed, I was using the term "great bulk" somewhat loosely. You are correct that, according to the data I have, about 60% of the prison population are drug offenders. Of course, that's still a great deal more than any other class of crimes. I think the remaining 40% is divided roughly evenly between violent crimes and property crimes (with a slightly greater proportion of violent crimes)... which means that the number of inmates convicted of drug-crimes outnumbers 3-1 the number convicted of violent crimes or property crimes.

it isn't the fact that a person is black that makes them commit violent crime. Far more often, it's the fact that they are poor that makes them commit violent crime. If you were to cross-index those statistics for socio-economic status, you would find a far more prevalent correlation than that offered by race to crime statistics.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

(The statistics on almost all serial killers being white are intriguing, btw. I wonder what explanation there is behind that.)


We have the same problem with Maori.

Maybe because the colonisation of New Zealand completely messed up their society, and has relegated many to poor living conditions? Again, it's socio-economic factors that are relevant, not ethnic ones. Have you ever stopped to think that Pakeha are the Maoris' problem at least as much as the reverse? It's a complex issue, in any case.

She stole the whale! :p


BWA-HAHA-HAHAHAHAHA!!!

oh..the laaughing...make it stop..it hurts.....

BWA-HAHA-HAHAHAHAHA!!!

oh..the laaughing...make it stop..it hurts.....
She tried to steal an Oscar too. ;)

She tried to steal an Oscar too. ;)


The fish, or the statue?

Indeed, I was using the term "great bulk" somewhat loosely. You are correct that, according to the data I have, about 60% of the prison population are drug offenders. Of course, that's still a great deal more than any other class of crimes. I think the remaining 40% is divided roughly evenly between violent crimes and property crimes (with a slightly greater proportion of violent crimes)... which means that the number of inmates convicted of drug-crimes outnumbers 3-1 the number convicted of violent crimes or property crimes.

Thank you. So both your and mine understanding about the figures is roughly along the same lines. (Though I make it 3-2, not 3-1).

I would also note - though this is purely anecdotal - that it is much easier to convict an african-american than a white person; regardless of jury makeup. Make of that what you will.

Care to provide said "overwhelming scientific evidence"?


There is no basis for a claim that recent harsh crime control policies or the enforcement strategies of the War on Drugs were based on good faith beliefs that they would achieve their ostensible purposes. In this and other countries, practitioners and scholars have long known that manipulation of penalties has few, if any, effects on crime rates.

Commissions and expert advisory bodies have been commissioned by the federal government repeatedly over the last 30 years to survey knowledge of the effects of crime control policies, and consistently they have concluded that there is little reason to believe that harsher penalties significantly enhance public safety. In 1967, the President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice observed that crime control efforts can have little effect on crime rates without much larger efforts being directed at crime's underlying social and economic causes. "The Commission . . . has no doubt whatever that the most significant action that can be taken against crime is action designed to eliminate slums and ghettos, to improve education, to provide jobs. . . . We shall not have dealt effectively with crime until we have alleviated the conditions that stimulate it."

In 1978, the National Academy of Sciences Panel on Research on Deterrent and Incapacitative Effects, funded by President Ford's department of justice and asked to examine the available evidence on the crime-reductive effects of sanctions, concluded: "In summary, we cannot assert that the evidence warrants an affirmative conclusion regarding deterrence" (Blumstein, Cohen, and Nagin 1978). Fifteen years later, the National Academy of Sciences Panel on the Understanding and Control of Violent Behavior, created and paid for with funds from the Reagan and Bush administration departments of justice, surveyed knowledge of the effects of harsher penalties on violent crime (Reiss and Roth 1993). A rhetorical question and answer in the panel's final report says it all: "What effect has increasing the prison population had on violent crime? Apparently very little. . . . If tripling the average length of sentence of incarceration per crime [between 1976 and 1989] had a strong preventive effect," reasoned the panel, "then violent crime rates should have declined" (p.7). They had not.

I mention that the two National Academy of Sciences panels were created and supported by national Republican administrations to demonstrate that skepticism about the crime-preventive effects of harsher punishments is not a fantasy of liberal Democrats. Anyone who has spent much time talking with judges or corrections officials knows that most, whatever their political affiliations, do not believe that harsher penalties significantly enchance public safety.

For example.

The real challenge would be for you to find any scientific evidence that enforcement and harsher penalties have any beneficial social effect.

Opo was a dolphin.Some bastard shot him.

Thank you. So both your and mine understanding about the figures is roughly along the same lines. (Though I make it 3-2, not 3-1).

Misunderstanding here: I meant 3-1 as against an individual category. Thus, 60/20 drug/violent, 60/20 drug/property.

:)

Misunderstanding here: I meant 3-1 as against an individual category. Thus, 60/20 drug/violent, 60/20 drug/property.

:)

Yah, that makes sense. Good point.

The fish, or the statue?
The Seal.

I would also note - though this is purely anecdotal - that it is much easier to convict an african-american than a white person; regardless of jury makeup. Make of that what you will.
There are studies that back you up--it's not purely anecdotal. It's also been shown by studies that even when you remove income disparities, sentences are generally harsher for black defendants than for white ones, especially for non-violent drug offenses.

Make no mistake--income makes a huge difference. If you have money, you're likely to avoid jail time, especially for something like possession, but even if you're of the lower economic class, if you're white, you're likelier to catch a break than if you're black.

Seriously though i am against Affirmative action but something needs to be done to reverse the colour bridge.

DISPARATE TREATMENT within the criminal justice system is not rational: Most crimes are not committed by minorities, and most minorities are not criminals. Yet the unequal targeting and treatment of minorities throughout the criminal justice process -- from arrest to sentencing -- reinforces the perception that drives the inequality in the first place. The result is a vicious cycle that has evolved into a self-fulfilling prophecy: More minority arrests and convictions perpetuate the belief that minorities commit more crimes, which in turn leads to racial profiling and more minority arrests.

"RACIAL PROFILING" refers to law enforcement strategies and practices that single out blacks and Hispanics as objects of suspicion solely on the basis of the color of their skin or accent. Under such practices, minorities are disproportionately targeted as criminal suspects, skewing at the outset the racial composition of the population ultimately charged, convicted and incarcerated.

http://www.civilrights.org/research_center/civilrights101/demographics.html

I'd like to see some statistics on the number of murders per convict. Wonder how that pans out given the "accepted" profile for your average serial killer.
Do you have the profile of a serial killer? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/drama/messiah2/profileq.shtml)

So you are telling me the vast majority of white murderers arent caught... while the majority of black murderers are?

Edit: Just wanted to say, I am not saying Black people are genetically predisposed to kill or anything of that sort. I am saying that the penal system is not racist, and that the people in the prisons are there because they commit crimes, not because of weird ass conspiracy theories.

Poverty and culture do contribute to the crime rates among African Americans, but its still a proven fact that the crime rates are much higher than among other groups.

I would love to see you present the number of white people arrested for crime versus black people arrested for crime. That would be a far more telling statistic. White people tend to be more advantaged and have more access to good attorneys. Good attorneys make it far more likely that the case never goes to trial or, in the event it goes to trial, are more likely to get their client acquited. I've dealt with public defenders. If you have a public defender, you're going to be found guilty or you're making a deal. Period. Whether you are actually guilty is beside the point.

And as has been repeatedly stated, crime, as far as those ending up in jail, is far more an indicator of socioeconomic status than race.

Anecdote - I have never worked at a company (although with my current one I don't know) where I haven't personally witnessed the majority of the officers of the company committing crimes. Mostly cocaine usage, but I've talked to by many of them on tax evasion, bribing cops and attorneys to get out of drunk driving tickets or speeding tickets, etc.

On the money thing, look at OJ, Michael Jackson and Kobe Bryant. We all know that if these gentlemen were impovershed, they would be in jail right now. Money makes the world go round and white people have more of it.

Or because of mandatory sentencing laws dealing with drug charges?
That probably has a lot to do with it. With cocaine, you're charged with regard to the weight of the active ingredient in the drug precursors or materials you're carrying, rather than, say, the monetary value. So a pound of crack is cheaper than a pound of brown powder, but there's more cocaine in the crack than there is in the powder.

If you check the demographic of who uses which form, white people are more likely to use the brown powder, black people more likely to use crack. These are statistics, of course, not specific individuals.

With LSD (and possibly other hallucinogens), you're prosecuted with regard to weight of the product, not concentration or anything else. So a drop of diethylamide solution, for your eyes, is bad enough. A drop of diethylamide dropped onto a sugar cube, for your mouth, is even worse - even though the concentration of the drug is diluted, in the finished form.

Not only does this lead to strong racial and class disparities, it's more schizophrenic than a PCP user.

Blacks have crimminal tendices, becuse thery are closely related to monkeys,and they have no sence of right and wrong.

You've been in trouble with trolling already, in which you've received an official warning. Would you like another one? If not, you'd better knock it off NOW or you'll be likely to receive one.

i love you. want a lap dance?
I want one! Do i have to be a racist? ;)

Hmmm, the basic premise behind this is flawed - that there are more blacks in prison than whites. Here is the breakdown for my Department in Arizona - http://www.azcorrections.gov/reports/Ethnic.htm >Feel free to wander around the site, and learn what the truth is about prisons.
BTW, I can tell you, from first hand knowledge, (I have worked in Arizona prisons for almost 4 years), that the number of drug offenders in prison without some additional violent offenses somewhere on their sheet, or in thier past, is very rare indeed.

Hmmm, the basic premise behind this is flawed - that there are more blacks in prison than whites. Here is the breakdown for my Department in Arizona - http://www.azcorrections.gov/reports/Ethnic.htm >Feel free to wander around the site, and learn what the truth is about prisons.
BTW, I can tell you, from first hand knowledge, (I have worked in Arizona prisons for almost 4 years), that the number of drug offenders in prison without some additional violent offenses somewhere on their sheet, or in thier past, is very rare indeed.

I suspect you would find equally debunking numbers if you looked at the Alaska prison system, however both systems are hardly representative of the US in its entirety. For one, Arizona doesn't contain a city on the scale of Chicago, New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Dallas, San Francisco, Atlanta, D.C or even a Seattle or Memphis (slightly smaller).

After trying to start this thread earlier, then screwing up by hitting the wrong htokey since I was using a mac and then trying to fix my mistake and making the thread basically unreadable... I decided to wait till I could get on a real computer before doing it heh... Anyway, on to the topic



One of my pet peeves is how people acccuse the penal system of being racist or argue against the death penalty by saying "look at the disproportionate amount of black people." I think that those people are totally full of shit.

For example, look at this data on homicides:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Basically, it says that a Black person is more than 7 times as likely to commit a homicide as a white person. Now im not saying that this is because blacks are in any way inferior... I think that its because of their "culture" and the fact that a lot of them dont think they can do much better.

But the fact is, that the only reason they are in prison is because they commit more crimes. There is no hidden agenda that judges, prosecuters, and police have that wants to fill death row and the rest of the prison system with african americans.


P.S. to avoid making the mistake i made earlier.. can someone tell me how to delete the first post of a thread you added by mistake? I couldnt find the option.

certainly some murders (by blacks, whites, puerto ricans, anyone...) may be attributed to mental problems such as a severe case of anti-social personality disorder (sociopathy).

but I would theorize that a very strong element in the inflated number of murders committed by african-americans is the defeatist message they've been being drilled with by the Left for the past 40 years.

Instead of being told, "Hey, you can do it! Go out, get a job and advance in life," they've been told, mostly (not entirely, of course, but mostly) by the Left: "You're not going anywhere, there is no American Dream for you... sit back and we'll provide all the welfare you'll ever need."

When there is no fire lit under your ass, you might not try. If you don't try, you are almost guaranteed not to succeed. So some, thinking that the only way out (terribly false) is to steal... you see how crime rates could be high. Maybe some of these thieves/burglars shoot their victims in the act of stealing... might represent some of those murders. At any rate, it is this DEFEATIST message (no soup for you, only welfare, and WE'LL PROVIDE FOR YOU, SO VOTE FOR US!) being shoved into the ears and hearts of African-Americans for the past several decades that may largely be blamed for such high poverty and related crime.

Not all crime is caused by poverty... but much may be attributed to it. That, and being brought up not to respect the property or lives/health of others. There are many fine poor people. Certainly most do not commit crime. (caveats)

Why are they poor?

I point to the defeatist/pessimistic message from the Left and their 40-year-old message of dependance on government as one major reason.

I stipulate that to take welfare away from everyone would be rash... some people truly need it. But if we shorten the length of time one may stay on it... light a fire under people's asses who've been dependant on the government for their every need... maybe some of these people may become productive, successful members of society... and crime will decrease.

After trying to start this thread earlier, then screwing up by hitting the wrong htokey since I was using a mac and then trying to fix my mistake and making the thread basically unreadable... I decided to wait till I could get on a real computer before doing it heh... Anyway, on to the topic



One of my pet peeves is how people acccuse the penal system of being racist or argue against the death penalty by saying "look at the disproportionate amount of black people." I think that those people are totally full of shit.

For example, look at this data on homicides:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Basically, it says that a Black person is more than 7 times as likely to commit a homicide as a white person. Now im not saying that this is because blacks are in any way inferior... I think that its because of their "culture" and the fact that a lot of them dont think they can do much better.

But the fact is, that the only reason they are in prison is because they commit more crimes. There is no hidden agenda that judges, prosecuters, and police have that wants to fill death row and the rest of the prison system with african americans.


P.S. to avoid making the mistake i made earlier.. can someone tell me how to delete the first post of a thread you added by mistake? I couldnt find the option.


Can someone please explain to me how the charts that show that blacks are seven times more likely to commit homocide and six times more likely to be murdered can also show that in all the years since 1976 the disparity is less than it has been in the past and at the same time the same document shows that in the combined representation of all of those years blacks are only just barely more likely to commit homocide and are less likely to be victims themselves. Those two things do NOT add up.

I could give a rats ass about this topic, but your argument in it doesn't hold water. I clicked the link because of what you said, but if what you said was a legitimate argument, then this other fact from the same site would be susceptible to you logic/deduction as well...

Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002

In which case, you would then say that that a black person would be six time more likely to be found murdered than a white person. Whether they did in fact die of murder is a different mater and remains to be seen.

Now you see, that doesn't really work then does it? And since it is well known that most people who are murdered are killed by someone they know and associate with, and since African Americans are six times more likely to be murdered than Caucasian Americans, there is no reason for you to suggest that they as a majority of the murdered group 'weren't' killed by other people of similar background and ethnicity.

I think it is safe to assume that the stats are real, there is no data to suggest otherwise, your baseless accusation to the contrary notwithstanding.

Wait, what? You are making some pretty huge leaps of logic here.

The fact that blacks are 7 times as likely to be found guilty of murder MAY mean that they are more likely to commit murder. But it may mean that they are more likely to be convicted. Or it could be a combination of the two. Neither is a completely safe assumption given the facts that we have. The same would apply to their likelihood of being a murder victim as well.

The second part of your post makes some rather impermissible leaps of logic, one of which is assuming that black people only know other black people.

One of my pet peeves is how people acccuse the penal system of being racist or argue against the death penalty by saying "look at the disproportionate amount of black people." I think that those people are totally full of shit.

For example, look at this data on homicides:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Basically, it says that a Black person is more than 7 times as likely to commit a homicide as a white person. Now im not saying that this is because blacks are in any way inferior... I think that its because of their "culture" and the fact that a lot of them dont think they can do much better.

But the fact is, that the only reason they are in prison is because they commit more crimes. There is no hidden agenda that judges, prosecuters, and police have that wants to fill death row and the rest of the prison system with african americans.
I would feel a lot better about this if they started sending away for life all those CEOs, financial gurus and others who commit "white collar crimes" that ruin the lives of thousands of people.

Wait, what? You are making some pretty huge leaps of logic here.

The fact that blacks are 7 times as likely to be found guilty of murder MAY mean that they are more likely to commit murder. But it may mean that they are more likely to be convicted. Or it could be a combination of the two. Neither is a completely safe assumption given the facts that we have. The same would apply to their likelihood of being a murder victim as well.

The second part of your post makes some rather impermissible leaps of logic, one of which is assuming that black people only know other black people.

Actually, the same document that he and the original poster are using as a source says that 94% of black victims were murdered by blacks and 86% of white victims were killed by whites. It's not a leap in logic. He used the source. The problem is the source can be PROVEN to be inconsistent in it's numbers regarding these crimes.

i love you. want a lap dance?
OCCIDIO!!!! Where have you BEEN?? :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Actually, the same document that he and the original poster are using as a source says that 94% of black victims were murdered by blacks and 86% of white victims were killed by whites. It's not a leap in logic. He used the source. The problem is the source can be PROVEN to be inconsistent in it's numbers regarding these crimes.
Oh, well I guess I didn't actually read the source all the way through. The poster was saying "it's well known that people are more likely to be killed by people they know" and that this well known fact supported his argument.

For the record, I'm just defending logic here, not blacks.

Oh, well I guess I didn't actually read the source all the way through. The poster was saying "it's well known that people are more likely to be killed by people they know" and that this well known fact supported his argument.

For the record, I'm just defending logic here, not blacks.

I'm defending both. And you know if you catch me defending Ph33rdom I'm likely backed into a logical corner. You hear that, Ph33r, I defended you *yells into the abyss*

Does the American justice system also have sentencing provisions that allow a judge to say, for example, "pay a $5000 fine OR do six months in jail"? That's another way to keep poor people locked up while letting rich folks go free, and if there is a correlation between income and racial background that adds to the problem you speak of.
That wouldn't interfere with this particular statistic simply because they would still be convicted of a crime, regardless of the punishment.

They have something even better. If you pay your lawyer enough you might get away with it altogether. Worked for OJ....oh but he's black. :rolleyes:
Of course if there was a truly randomized jury system in this country that had an impartial tribunal of judges vetting the potential jurors rather than the lawyers involved in the case, the better lawyers wouldn't have nearly the advantage they do now.

No, what it says is that a Black person is 7 times more likely to be found guilty of homicide than a white person. Whether they did in fact commit the crime is a different matter, and remains to be seen.
Thank you :fluffle:

Yes, seig heil, 1488! We shall slay the untermenschen, my glorious Aryan brother! Actually, your stats don't necessarily prove anything as pointed already.

I agree, it is possible that black people commit more crimes than white people.
BUT!!! does this mean that they are more violent, or that it is racially defined?
Of course not! It is simply because black people tend to be in social area's that are more likely to commit crimes, plus there is the "self fulfilling prophecy"; If you say to someone long enough he is bad, then taht person will start doing bad things.
Why are black people more likely to be in lower social area's? THAT's because of racism, don't say it isn't because you know it is, society is filled with it. Black vs white, and white vs black.
That is why (I think) there are more "blacks" in jail then "whites"

Care to provide said "overwhelming scientific evidence"?
Well, there's the fact that the gangs, which cause a great amount of the murders in this country, are essentially just a growth of the black market to protect product, in this case drugs like cocaine, heroin etc. etc... The same damned thing led to the rise of the Mob in the '20's but with alcohol instead of heroin or crack.

On the money thing, look at OJ, Michael Jackson and Kobe Bryant. We all know that if these gentlemen were impovershed, they would be in jail right now. Money makes the world go round and white people have more of it.
Had Kobe Bryant not been rich in the first place the charges never would have been brought up.

The reason there are more blacks in prison is because blacks commit more crimes.

However, that's not a negative comment against blacks, it's against the government in allowing this situation to occur. People become the people they are from their enviroment and how our society shapes them, we must ask how so many blacks have been allowed to become like this.

The judicial system is pretty irrelevant, it's a lot more to do with the management of the government or the form of society.

Blame society, blame the government but blaming blacks is just so short-sighted and indicative of the us vs them mentality that is at the centre of much of racism.

Had Kobe Bryant not been rich in the first place the charges never would have been brought up.

Unless he did it. Also, if you're not aware of this poor people do get falsely accused of rape, child molestation and murder. All three these would have been different cases had they not been rich, but I can tell you that none of them would have gotten off without the amazing attorneys they were able to hire.

Just for the record, I think that Kobe and MJ were falsely accused and OJ wasn't but I don't want to discuss it in this thread.

The reason there are more blacks in prison is because blacks commit more crimes.

However, that's not a negative comment against blacks, it's against the government in allowing this situation to occur. People become the people they are from their enviroment and how our society shapes them, we must ask how so many blacks have been allowed to become like this.

The judicial system is pretty irrelevant, it's a lot more to do with the management of the government or the form of society.

Blame society, blame the government but blaming blacks is just so short-sighted and indicative of the us vs them mentality that is at the centre of much of racism.

So all blacks below the poverty line who live in cities are violent criminals, because those conditions "allow" them to become like that?

So everyone's environment is dictated by the government, presumably at birth? Poor whites and poor blacks are sent to live in the poor areas, and rich whites and rich blacks are sent to the rich areas? Has nothing to do with income, or culture? And the "black" culture is not propogated by black people, but forced upon them by the government?

Oh, yeah, and the black helicopters are coming to your house right now to pick you up and stop you from informing the rest of us about this massive conspiracy... :p

As a black man, I have to say that the problem is black people and others wanting to blame anyone/anything but blacks for their own problems. Taking responsibility for yourself is how you get out of these situations. And taking responsibility for being a criminal rat-bastard is how you realize that you need to change. But excuses will not help anyone, and in fact exacerbate the problem.

Liberal excusers (of all colors) are the number one problem with black people, aside from the culture of ignorance and stupidity in the black community. :gundge:

I suspect you would find equally debunking numbers if you looked at the Alaska prison system, however both systems are hardly representative of the US in its entirety. For one, Arizona doesn't contain a city on the scale of Chicago, New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Dallas, San Francisco, Atlanta, D.C or even a Seattle or Memphis (slightly smaller).
Arizona does have a city on the scale of Miami. It's called Mesa, although you wouldn't know it if you visited. Of the rest, only New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are bigger than Phoenix, which is either the 5th or 6th largest city in the United States. Maricopa Country, which makes up the Valley of the Sun, containing Phoenix, Mesa, Tempe, Glendale, and several smaller cities, has a population of over 3.2 million.

Having said all that, the black population here is pretty small. If you count hispanics, this area's probably 90% white. I'd guess about 60%, if you don't.

So all blacks below the poverty line who live in cities are violent criminals, because those conditions "allow" them to become like that?

So everyone's environment is dictated by the government, presumably at birth? Poor whites and poor blacks are sent to live in the poor areas, and rich whites and rich blacks are sent to the rich areas? Has nothing to do with income, or culture? And the "black" culture is not propogated by black people, but forced upon them by the government?

Oh, yeah, and the black helicopters are coming to your house right now to pick you up and stop you from informing the rest of us about this massive conspiracy... :p

As a black man, I have to say that the problem is black people and others wanting to blame anyone/anything but blacks for their own problems. Taking responsibility for yourself is how you get out of these situations. And taking responsibility for being a criminal rat-bastard is how you realize that you need to change. But excuses will not help anyone, and in fact exacerbate the problem.

Liberal excusers (of all colors) are the number one problem with black people, aside from the culture of ignorance and stupidity in the black community. :gundge:


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

It's hard to miss the point more than that.

So all blacks below the poverty line who live in cities are violent criminals, because those conditions "allow" them to become like that?

So everyone's environment is dictated by the government, presumably at birth? Poor whites and poor blacks are sent to live in the poor areas, and rich whites and rich blacks are sent to the rich areas? Has nothing to do with income, or culture? And the "black" culture is not propogated by black people, but forced upon them by the government?

Oh, yeah, and the black helicopters are coming to your house right now to pick you up and stop you from informing the rest of us about this massive conspiracy... :p

As a black man, I have to say that the problem is black people and others wanting to blame anyone/anything but blacks for their own problems. Taking responsibility for yourself is how you get out of these situations. And taking responsibility for being a criminal rat-bastard is how you realize that you need to change. But excuses will not help anyone, and in fact exacerbate the problem.

Liberal excusers (of all colors) are the number one problem with black people, aside from the culture of ignorance and stupidity in the black community. :gundge:

Regardless of the issues that can be placed at the feet of those in the situation, there is a clear problem with the state of our justice system. Justice should not be MORE available to those with money and currently it is. You make the assumption that everyone in jail committed a crime. This simply isn't the case. Some for example accepted a plea bargain because the possibility of losing the case was very real without excellent representation (which was not available to them) and the consequence for losing were just too great. That's just a story of a friend of mine that I happen to know COULD NOT have committed the crime. However, if he would have went to trial he may still be in prison. His public defender told him that he was almost guaranteed to lose. This may be just anecdotal evidence, but I promise you there are stories like this one across the nation. Justice should not have a price that exceeds the budget of the poor. PERIOD.

Arizona does have a city on the scale of Miami. It's called Mesa, although you wouldn't know it if you visited. Of the rest, only New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are bigger than Phoenix, which is either the 5th or 6th largest city in the United States. Maricopa Country, which makes up the Valley of the Sun, containing Phoenix, Mesa, Tempe, Glendale, and several smaller cities, has a population of over 3.2 million.

Having said all that, the black population here is pretty small. If you count hispanics, this area's probably 90% white. I'd guess about 60%, if you don't.

The percentage of the population that is black was the point of my post. No city in Arizona has a black population either by percentage or sheer numbers rivaling New York, Chicago, Atlanta or any of the other cities I mentioned. Pheonix has a black population of 5.1% and Mesa has 2.5%. Compare that to Miami at 22%, Seattle, one of the smaller cities I mentioned, at 8.4%, DC at a whopping 60%, NYC at 27%, LA at 11%, Atlanta at 61%, Chicago at 37%, etc. While most cities exceed the national average for concentration for black people, AZ cities are well below it. Let's face it, more people, smaller area, more crime. It's fairly well established which is the reason that many cities are dismantling their projects.

Also, a county that contains several relatively large cities (four) and has a population of around 3.2 million suggests that each of those 'large' cities is not particularly large in the scheme of things.

There are multiple reasons for the disparity.

The War on Drugs is a huge part of it. First, blacks tend to live much more in urban areas where they're more likely to get caught buying, using, selling, or just plain possessing them. Add to that the fact that police are more suspicious of them and so they're more likely to get caught for that reason. Now since the risk of getting caught is so much higher for urban blacks that rural whites, the street pharmacy business attracts and rewards those who are most desperate and have the least to lose. Basically, if you're 'hustling' you can't afford to be a pussy. Eliminating the drug prohibition altogether would have the most significant positive effect on the problem of black crime.

American history has much to do with this. If you follow any US-ian black's ancestry back, you'll obviously find slaves. And not just any slaves, but the last generation of slaves who were freed by a terrible war, mostly lacking the knowledge and life skills to live independently of their former white masters. I'm not saying they couldn't figure out how to feed themselves, but they lacked the cultural history of self-determination shared by most other Americans. To this day, many if not most non-black Americans know have at least one story of first generation immigrants building a life from nothing. Most black families don't have this.

Add to that a level of racism not seen in other western former slave-having countries, which I'm sure was a direct result of the south losing the war. For 100 years you can find all sorts of government actions that harmed blacks. Of course there were the Jim Crow laws that specifically targeted them. Blacks have also been harmed by things like poll taxes and FDR's NRA, referred to by some as the Negro Removal Act (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_2002_Summer/ai_87774110). Some laws were obviously racist, some not-so obvious, and in many cases the negative effects on blacks where unintentional. I contend that some of the worst things have been social-welfare programs, destorying any potential culture of self-determination before it has a chance to take root. Instead, we've given blacks a culture of entitlement and dependency.

Of course, the culture of entitlement and dependency is widespread amoung all colors. If it weren't we wouldn't tolerate such a welfare state. It's just that other groups have a cultural history more resistant to such crap.

If there was to attribute all of this to a single cause, I would say that it's the prevelance single-mom families amoung blacks. The majority of black children grow up in single-parent homes. This is definately related to the social-welfare programs and the entitlement culture. The poorer you are, the more you're rewarded by Uncle Sam for having a baby. Only pie-in-the-sky social democrat type liberals believe there's no significant cause and effect relationship here. These are also people who might tell you that growing up without a dad is perfectly wonderful as long as mom's a good mother. And they blame the crime exclusively on poverty and racism. If only they'd push to stop subsidizing poverty (http://64.233.167.104/custom?q=cache:r9NtTmZsz-UJ:www.lewrockwell.com/orig/hermann-hoppe2.html+subsidizing+poverty&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) and stop state-sponsored racism (http://www.detnews.com/2003/editorial/0303/28/a11-121100.htm).

If only I could explain it as clearly as I see it.

/used to be Battery Charger, BTW

Can someone please explain to me how the charts that show that blacks are seven times more likely to commit homocide and six times more likely to be murdered can also show that in all the years since 1976 the disparity is less than it has been in the past and at the same time the same document shows that in the combined representation of all of those years blacks are only just barely more likely to commit homocide and are less likely to be victims themselves. Those two things do NOT add up.

Let me go ahead and correct myself. They do add up. The chart is per capita (or moreso per 100,000 people) and the percentages are a strict numerical comparison.

You want some examples of the bias that leads to the negative image that some blacks have of themselves and that some non-blacks have of them? I can easily name a number of white children and adults who were the object of nationwide media frenzy when they either disappeared or were murdered. Name five black people who were murdered and received the same level of coverage (already famous people don't count, e.g. Tupac).

Adam Walsh
Jon Bonet Ramsey
Natalee Holloway
Susan Smith murders
Lois McMillan
Laci Peterson
(all of these came from a coworker that I asked to name a few famous murder/kidnappings)

Yep, no bias in the media whatsoever.

Hmmm, the basic premise behind this is flawed - that there are more blacks in prison than whites. Here is the breakdown for my Department in Arizona - http://www.azcorrections.gov/reports/Ethnic.htm >Feel free to wander around the site, and learn what the truth is about prisons.

Right. The fact that the percentage of black inmates is (on a cursory inspection) between 10-15% in each facility, while the percentage of African Americans in the state of Arizona is, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, about 3%...

That is very telling indeed.

I'm defending both. And you know if you catch me defending Ph33rdom I'm likely backed into a logical corner. You hear that, Ph33r, I defended you *yells into the abyss*


I won't hold it against ya ;)

That wouldn't interfere with this particular statistic simply because they would still be convicted of a crime, regardless of the punishment.

Right, penalty differentials wouldn't affect the conviction rate.

Of course, plea bargained charge reductions would....

"The reason prisons contain more blacks is because blacks commit more crimes!"

I like this! It is like saying 2+2=4! That if more people of a certain group have more people in jail then they commit more crimes! If people don't understand this basic principle then I pity them. Why this is true (the quote, I mean) is complicated of course but this sentence is certianly obvious!

"The reason prisons contain more blacks is because blacks commit more crimes!"

I like this! It is like saying 2+2=4! That if more people of a certain group have more people in jail then they commit more crimes! If people don't understand this basic principle then I pity them. Why this is true (the quote, I mean) is complicated of course but this sentence is certianly obvious!

Um, no, it's nothing like 2+2 = 4. It's more like saying if x + y +2 = 4 then it must be true that x=2. We are saying, "but what if y = 2 or y = 3 or y = -1?"

The point is that the reason prisons contain more blacks is because blacks are convicted of more crimes that result in prison sentences. We haven't seen any statistics on the number of white people accused of crime versus the number of black people accused of crime or the conviction rates for said crimes. We haven't seen the rate of plea-bargaining to avoid jail sentences by black and white criminals or even to reduce prison sentences (which by nature would reduce the number of people in jail by shortening their time). We have absolutely no way of knowing how much unsolved, improperly solved, undiscovered or unreported crime is committed by whites and how much is committed by blacks. All of these things could affect the number of people in jail and the distribution according to race.

It is a fact that there is not enough information here to even remotely make a sound decision. If this was a scientific peer review you would be told to go back and get more information, that you don't yet have enough information to draw any conclusion let alone the conclusion that many have attempted to make in this thread.

You want some examples of the bias that leads to the negative image that some blacks have of themselves and that some non-blacks have of them? I can easily name a number of white children and adults who were the object of nationwide media frenzy when they either disappeared or were murdered. Name five black people who were murdered and received the same level of coverage (already famous people don't count, e.g. Tupac).

Adam Walsh
Jon Bonet Ramsey
Natalee Holloway
Susan Smith murders
Lois McMillan
Laci Peterson
(all of these came from a coworker that I asked to name a few famous murder/kidnappings)

Yep, no bias in the media whatsoever.
All of which except for one are white females. It's PWGS simply enough. That and the companies looking for ratings. If they thought missing Pretty Black Girls would get them ratings they'd cover that instead. But they don't, because they think that Pretty White Girls will get them more ratings. Personally, I'd just pay them to shut up about it.

1,343,164 men were under the jurisdiction of state or federal prison authorities on Dec. 31, 2002, an increase of 2.4 percent from Dec. 31, 2001, to Dec. 31, 2002.
97,491 women were under the jurisdiction of state or federal prison authorities on Dec. 31, 2002, an increase of 4.9 percent from Dec. 31, 2001, to Dec. 31, 2002.
Black and Hispanic inmates together make up 62 percent of the prison population
Approximately 46 percent of all prison inmates (excluding those whose race was not reported) were black; 36 percent, white; 16 percent, Hispanic; 1 percent, American Indian or Alaska Native; and 1 percent, Asian or Pacific Islander
46 percent of inmates were incarcerated for a violent offence

http://www.aca.org/government/population.asp#demo

Jail Population

At midyear 2002, 665,475 inmates were held in the nation's local jails:

• An increase from 631,240 at midyear 2001; and

• From 1990 to 2002, the number of jail inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents rose from 163 to 231.

From midyear 2001 to midyear 2002, the 12-month increase of 5.4 percent in the jail population was larger than the average annual increase of 4.3 percent since 1995.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the average daily population of the nation's jails was about 500,000 in 1995.

• Admissions to jails for 1995 were between 10 and 13 million individuals

The offender population in jails turns over 20 to 25 times each year.

At midyear 2002 local jail authorities held or supervised 737,912 offenders.

• Ten percent of these offenders (72,437) were supervised outside jail facilities in programs such as community service, work release, weekend reporting, electronic monitoring and other alternative programs



6.7 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at year-end 2002

• 3.1 percent of all U.S. adult residents or one in every 32 adults

State and federal prison authorities had under their jurisdiction 1,440,655 inmates at year-end 2002

• 1,277,127 under state jurisdiction

• 163,528 under federal jurisdiction

Local jails held or supervised 737,912 people awaiting trial or serving a sentence at midyear 2002.

• About 72,400 of these people were serving their sentence in the community

Here's the thing , YOU are a police officer on a stakeout at a mall (you have read the stats posted above )you have info that the jewelry store is going to be robbed . You spot two groups of young males both the approximate same age and type of dress both headed for the general area of the jewelry store but taking different paths do you follow the white ones or the black ones. is it racism or common sense you have used to make a decision ?

Here's the thing , YOU are a police officer on a stakeout at a mall (you have read the stats posted above )you have info that the jewelry store is going to be robbed . You spot two groups of young males both the approximate same age and type of dress both headed for the general area of the jewelry store but taking different paths do you follow the white ones or the black ones. is it racism or common sense you have used to make a decision ?

I would look at a lot of details you left out, whether either looked suspicious, whether either had anything in which to carry guns, whether one or the other had a shorter path. There are dozens of tiny things you would take into account when making this type of decision. It is not nor should it be as simple as classifying thier race.

Unless he did it. Also, if you're not aware of this poor people do get falsely accused of rape, child molestation and murder. All three these would have been different cases had they not been rich, but I can tell you that none of them would have gotten off without the amazing attorneys they were able to hire.

Just for the record, I think that Kobe and MJ were falsely accused and OJ wasn't but I don't want to discuss it in this thread.
but there is no doubt that bryant did it. HE ADMITTED IT for gods sake

his defense was "that aint rape"

we'll never know if it would have stood up in court or not.

but yeah, money talks. celebrity talks even louder. few of the people of any race in prison have either.

<snip> Far more often, it's the fact that they are poor that makes them commit violent crime. (not) Sorry, I have to call Bullshit on this one. NO ONE is FORCCED (i.e. "made") to commit violent crime. PERIOD. THERE IS NO ACCEPTABLE/VIABLE REASON FOR ACTS OF AGRESSION AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON. PERIOD. (note - acts of agression, not acts of violence. self defense from agression through the use of sufficient violence is a biological imperative...) Now, to the rest of your argument...
If you were to cross-index those statistics for socio-economic status, you would find a far more prevalent correlation than that offered by race to crime statistics.I agree absolutely. But the latter does not imply causality of the former. Post Hoc ergo Propter Hoc. Big ol' Fallacy that.

Here's the thing , YOU are a police officer on a stakeout at a mall (you have read the stats posted above )you have info that the jewelry store is going to be robbed . You spot two groups of young males both the approximate same age and type of dress both headed for the general area of the jewelry store but taking different paths do you follow the white ones or the black ones. is it racism or common sense you have used to make a decision ?
(A) If I were on stakeout I would not be far enough away from the jewlry store to need to follow one or the other - just draw down on the ones who entered.
(B) If I WERE in a position to "follow" group A or B, I would alert my compadres at the store that there are 2 potential theft-groups approaching.
(C) If the two Gangs (as identified by their dress in your post) were both approaching a specific spot from exclusive directions, I would be calling for backup as there will likely be a Rumble before any store gets robbed.

What has Race got to do with it?

There are at least twice the amount of white poor than black poor people in the US so why are there not at least as many white criminals as black criminals ? It cant be just a class problem .

There are at least twice the amount of white poor than black poor people in the US so why are there not at least as many white criminals as black criminals ? It cant be just a class problem .
thats where racism comes in. white offenders are given more breaks and charged less harshly than black offenders.

i think that even with that factored in, black crime rates are disproportionate to their population numbers. but it is far less scary than the original poster suggested.

There are at least twice the amount of white poor than black poor people in the US so why are there not at least as many white criminals as black criminals ? It cant be just a class problem .

Proximity is a HUGE factor as well as has already been pointed out in this thread. This is why they are taking apart the projects in a number of cities. Now ask yourself, who is more likely to live in closer proximity, poor blacks or poor whites? I'm sure if you cross-reference the economic status and the location you find the majority of convicted offenders are from poor areas of cities. Even if you only look at poor people who do you think is more likely to throw you in jail for fighting, some judge that sees a few thousand fights a year including some that result in severe injury and death, a judge that you've never met, or the judge that grew in the same community as you that you've known for your whole life and knows your parents and grandparents. There are tons of socioeconomic explanations for why the trends are as they are.

One of my pet peeves is how people acccuse the penal system of being racist or argue against the death penalty by saying "look at the disproportionate amount of black people." I think that those people are totally full of shit..I am assuming we are talking about the US...

You don't have to look too far to see... "look at the disproportionate amount of black people."

Unemployment.
Poverty.
New Orleans.

A private Employer is looking...If both a White man and a Black man can do the job...I am betting the White man will get the call.

QUESTION: Is the system Racist?
ANSWER: of course it is.

Wake up and smell the Black Coffee.

New Orleans has more looter because that city had more hurricane!

New Orleans has more looter because that city had more hurricane!
But why are most of the looters...Blacks?

But why are most of the looters...Blacks?
They're not black. They are severely suntanned.

They're not black. They are severely suntanned. :D

You should apply for a Journalist position at "Fair-And-Balanced" News

Nope: because the source of the figures is from the American Department of Justice and is based on the figures of those convicted of homicide.

Next time before you start hurling accusations of invalidity at people, I reckon you should check up on your basic logic - I am simply stating what the webpage states, whereas the original poster and yourself are adding in the additional premise that the American courts are either infallible, or are equally fallible regardless of the race of someone who commited a crime or is convicted of it.

How about you check up on your basic logic.

A sound arguement requires the evidence to be proven without a doubt true or not true. The fact that your supposed evidence can not be varified in any way makes your arguement weak and invalid..

Let me give you an example.....of an arguement that YOU JUST DID...

There is a god.......


Now prove that to be false or true....oh wait you cant...that arguement is weak since it provides NOTHING.

Your entire post earlier was a waste of time and life. kill yourself now for being so stupid.

:D

You should apply for a Journalist position at "Fair-And-Balanced" News
I make truths!

How about you check up on your basic logic.

A sound arguement requires the evidence to be proven without a doubt true or not true. The fact that your supposed evidence can not be varified in any way makes your arguement weak and invalid..

Let me give you an example.....of an arguement that YOU JUST DID...

There is a god.......


Now prove that to be false or true....oh wait you cant...that arguement is weak since it provides NOTHING.

Your entire post earlier was a waste of time and life. kill yourself now for being so stupid.
Bye thread. We liked you for a little while.

But why are most of the looters...Blacks?

Because when they're white, they "found" stuff. When they're black, they "looted" stuff.

I am assuming we are talking about the US...

You don't have to look too far to see... "look at the disproportionate amount of black people."

Unemployment.
Poverty.
New Orleans.

A private Employer is looking...If both a White man and a Black man can do the job...I am betting the White man will get the call.

QUESTION: Is the system Racist?
ANSWER: of course it is.

Wake up and smell the Black Coffee.

Thats just like the other guy i yelled at


I am betting!? WTF logic is this? Youre not even using logic what so ever because your supposed premise is using an opinion to come to your conclusion

WHEN STATING THINGS MAKE SURE ITS A FACT NOT A OPINION.

seriously this is the worst evidence ive ever seen i have to post it again...

"A private Employer is looking...If both a White man and a Black man can do the job...I am betting the White man will get the call.

QUESTION: Is the system Racist?
ANSWER: of course it is."



Oh yes...nice FACTS. here ill do what you did....

A moron posts on nationstates forums....It is either me or you....I am betting the moron is you.

Question: Are you a moron?
Answer: Yes you are.

A moron posts on nationstates forums....It is either me or you....I am betting the moron is you.Sorry...you lost...

Thank You for Playing.

I make truths!
Karl !!!...is that you?

This thread will be locked, pending moderator review.

How about you check up on your basic logic.

A sound arguement requires the evidence to be proven without a doubt true or not true. The fact that your supposed evidence can not be varified in any way makes your arguement weak and invalid..

Let me give you an example.....of an arguement that YOU JUST DID...

There is a god.......


Now prove that to be false or true....oh wait you cant...that arguement is weak since it provides NOTHING.

Your entire post earlier was a waste of time and life. kill yourself now for being so stupid.

You've earned yourself a week forum ban. Telling someone to kill themselves is a serious threat, and is absolutely not tolerated here. Take the time out to learn how to properly debate.

Gulf Republics: 1-week Forumban for Flaming