NationStates Jolt Archive

The United States asked for German help to cope with the desastrous outcome of Katrina making landfall in New Orleans and we delieverd food & water pumps.

Now I have learned that the sent food is not appreciated, hasn't reached those in need and the new U.S. ambassador to Germany has lied about the ration packs distribution among those affected by the hurricane.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,374268,00.html

(First paragraph)

Either you want help and accept it - or you don't want help and then won't get any. But when you get what you wanted you should very well use it!

I am highly offended by this practice and the lies which were made to cover it up.

Now, does anyone here understand why this has happened and would please be so kind as to explain this to me? Because I don't get it!

Damn straight.

Typical example of the idiocy of the Bush administration.Speaking of NO,though,I´m WAY more worried about what´s gonna happen to those biochemistry/BC-research labs they had down in the floodzone.If things had been handled properly,the labs should either be completely sealed or,in case of a disaster like that,blown to bits with a VERY large explosive charge,which would have at least sterilized them and prevent genetically engineered bacteria and viruses from escaping.

This is interesting in light of the thread that appeared here a few days ago alleging Germans not being caring about Hurricane Katrina's aftermath.

From what I heard, the Americans were scared the food aid from Germany could be infected with BSE.

Why?

Because it was aid not from America of course!

The Germans should just say "Right, sod you lot, we offered help, you turned your noses up, sod you. We'll just let the hurricane survivors know all about how you turned our aid away."

They should have thought about something like this happening before they built the city on the area not above sea level.

Figures...

They should have thought about something like this happening before they built the city on the area not above sea level.

Erg... I believe that the French were the Founders of New Orleans.

Once again, I wish I could say I was surprised. But with people on this very forum a few days ago saying we should turn down aid from Venezuela, I'm not surprised at all.

But please don't think this means that all Americans are ungrateful. Our government may be crazy, but the American people will remember who offered aid when we needed it.

The United States asked for German help to cope with the desastrous outcome of Katrina making landfall in New Orleans and we delieverd food & water pumps.

Now I have learned that the sent food is not appreciated, hasn't reached those in need and the new U.S. ambassador to Germany has lied about the ration packs distribution among those affected by the hurricane.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,374268,00.html

(First paragraph)

Either you want help and accept it - or you don't want help and then won't get any. But when you get what you wanted you should very well use it!

I am highly offended by this practice and the lies which were made to cover it up.

Now, does anyone here understand why this has happened and would please be so kind as to explain this to me? Because I don't get it!


To agree with a few posts here...please don't assume the Bush administration or any ambassadors speak for the American people. Basically, we are just as embarassed as you are offended by the actions of our government.

From what I heard, the Americans were scared the food aid from Germany could be infected with BSE.Read the article. Yes, that was the reason given. The same food, however, has been deemed BSE free by NATO and has been fed to American troops in Afghanistan, among others.

Erg... I believe that the French were the Founders of New Orleans.You sure? French quarter hardly got flooded, I heard...

See, but that's exactly the point.

The reasons given are bullshit. The ration packs are BSE-free, certified by the NATO. The U.S. troops in Afghanistan are munching the same stuff, so do our own troops.

What really pisses me off (excuse my French) is that on the one hand some folks are complaining about us not giving help and the big head-honchos turn it down for publicity reasons while your average Joe wonders how he's gonna get a full tummy.

What really gets me going, though, is that the ambassador straight-out lied. I know, others know, you now know. And not knowing that the food was not distributed makes him even more questionable! (Just to counter the "argument" he didn't know.)

You sure? French quarter hardly got flooded, I heard...

I was just correcting him. The French did found the City of New Orleans proper. I'm not trying to blame the french, or be a french basher, I was simply stating a fact.

I heard that the French Quarter was quite well flooded. MY information is old, though. It could be outdated. I'll try to find a link when I get back from class.

Read the article. Yes, that was the reason given. The same food, however, has been deemed BSE free by NATO and has been fed to American troops in Afghanistan, among others.

I said the Americans were scared because they thought the food could be infected by BSE, not that the Americans were scared because they had a good guess the food wasinfected with BSE.

In other words, I was pointing out the irrational paranoia.

Well, I might then just go ahead and ask you to spread the word whenever you hear that we Germans didn't help that it's simply not true.

The German pumps that are currently used to get to the big pumps that usually kept New Orleans dry were developed after one of our streams imitated the Mississippi and flooded large areas (Oderhochwasser 1997).

And I'm well aware that the German help is appreciated by most of the Americans, especially those in need. I'm just not too sure that those affected by the catastrophe will understand or even know about these little things that makes it sometimes so damn hard to accept the Big Uncle Sam as a partner and friend.

I heard that the French Quarter was quite well flooded. MY information is old, though. It could be outdated. I'll try to find a link when I get back from class.

Some of the French quarter was flooded, but nowhere near as bad as the rest of New Orleans, because the French and original part of New Orleans was built on higher ground.

The rest of New Orleans was built by Americans, on a lower ground to the original french part of New Orleans.

There goes the usual blaming of woes upon the French then, hmm?

The United States asked for German help to cope with the desastrous outcome of Katrina making landfall in New Orleans and we delieverd food & water pumps.

Now I have learned that the sent food is not appreciated, hasn't reached those in need and the new U.S. ambassador to Germany has lied about the ration packs distribution among those affected by the hurricane.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,374268,00.html

(First paragraph)

Either you want help and accept it - or you don't want help and then won't get any. But when you get what you wanted you should very well use it!

I am highly offended by this practice and the lies which were made to cover it up.

Now, does anyone here understand why this has happened and would please be so kind as to explain this to me? Because I don't get it!

Unfortuneately I do not understand this myself although I don't remember the US asking for food or water just a way to help get it there. and If you try to blame the President you should really be looking at the USGA they have there reason however twisted and demented it may unfortuneatly be.

I said the Americans were scared because they thought the food could be infected by BSE, not that the Americans were scared because they had a good guess the food wasinfected with BSE.

In other words, I was pointing out the irrational paranoia.Of course. It just sounded like you hadn't read the whole article and I was trying to direct you to doing so ;)

Unfortuneately I do not understand this myself although I don't remember the US asking for food or water just a way to help get it there. and If you try to blame the President you should really be looking at the USGA they have there reason however twisted and demented it may unfortuneatly be.I do, actually. I remember there being an official request to NATO for blankets and food.

I read that most of the European help offered is actually just sitting around in various airports, waiting for American acceptance. Acceptance that has never come.

:rolleyes:

Well, I might then just go ahead and ask you to spread the word whenever you hear that we Germans didn't help that it's simply not true.


I personally hope that the fact Germany offered aid and was refused will become well known.

Well known as disgraceful.

Of course. It just sounded like you hadn't read the whole article and I was trying to direct you to doing so ;)

lol ok ;)

I live in the South where the hurricane hit and I just want all of you to know we do know what aid is coming from numerous nations and we truly do appreciate it though it is taking quite a while in some places for these generous offerings to arrive. As for New Orleans, the reason it is under sea level is because the Mississippi was not allowed to take its path as it chose so silt was not deposited as it was in the past. The levees which hold the river in busted and that is what caused major damage, otherwise it would have been mostly wind damage.

I do, actually. I remember there being an official request to NATO for blankets and food.

Yet again I do not understand the governments decision to refuse foreign aid. More to the point the time for fringer pointing and anger can come later there are still people in their house who have nothing why talk anger when working togehter can make all the difference EVEN WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WILL NOT LET THE WORLD DO SO.

I personally hope that the fact Germany offered aid and was refused will become well known.

Well known as disgraceful.

Everybody including Germany has made mistake I agree that not accepting foriegn aid is incorrect and flat out wrong but this does not slove the problem it only makes matter worse

But please don't think this means that all Americans are ungrateful. Our government may be crazy, but the American people will remember who offered aid when we needed it.

I'd like to reiterate this as well. I was touched that Cuba, North Korea, and Iran were so quick to respond, and felt we should have accepted the aid.

Didn't our goverment offered one of these "flying hospitals"? Does anybody know if this has been accepted?

Unfortuneately I do not understand this myself although I don't remember the US asking for food or water just a way to help get it there. and If you try to blame the President you should really be looking at the USGA they have there reason however twisted and demented it may unfortuneatly be.

They did. We delivered:

http://www.nato.int/eadrcc/2005/katrina/index.htm

While it might be that the government doesn't want this to be widely known - asking for help is not a sign of weakness but of strength.
Not accepting that help is stupid.
Lying about the reasons why is despicable!

I'd like to reiterate this as well. I was touched that Cuba, North Korea, and Iran were so quick to respond, and felt we should have accepted the aid.I was kind of appalled by some peoples' reactions to Castro's proposal... "Drop the medicine in the ocean and send the doctors home in shame"...

They did. We delivered:

http://www.nato.int/eadrcc/2005/katrina/index.htm

While it might be that the government doesn't want this to be widely known - asking for help is not a sign of weakness but of strength.
Not accepting that help is stupid.
Lying about the reasons why is despicable!

Did I not agree with you these people our the government no group of people including the clinically insane make less sense but being angey about it and not making a lot of sense yourself is not going to help the situation in New Orleans :( and it is embrassing that these officals would lie to cover themsleves.

please don't assume the Bush administration or any ambassadors speak for the American people.

hold on? The "American People" elected the stupid buggers.....


Still, I feel sorry for those of you who are A) Not getting any aid or B) Are embarassed because you live in a democracy....

Yet again I do not understand the governments decision to refuse foreign aid. More to the point the time for fringer pointing and anger can come later there are still people in their house who have nothing why talk anger when working togehter can make all the difference EVEN WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WILL NOT LET THE WORLD DO SO.
Well, right now I'm not pointing fingers, I'm simply baffled and bewildered by what's happening.
Big problem with that last sentence is though:
Even when the world wants to but your government will not let them - what can you do?
(I don't want to be posting threads about how the U.S. shot down help planes that entered their air space with purely good intentions to help the average Joe on the ground. If they say nay, the world can't do shit about it. Your citizens can, though!)

hold on? The "American People" elected the stupid buggers.....


Still, I feel sorry for those of you who are A) Not getting any aid or B) Are embarassed because you live in a democracy....

yes we elected these people but then again so do many of the countries of NATO is that not correct many people pick there leaders that does not mean that they are going to accuratley represent all of the people at the time these decisions are made.

Did I not agree with you these people our the government no group of people including the clinically insane make less sense but being angey about it and not making a lot of sense yourself is not going to help the situation in New Orleans :( and it is embrassing that these officals would lie to cover themsleves.
Well, then help me understand how to get out of this messy situation?

That was and is my personal reason why I started this thread.

I just don't get it!

Well, right now I'm not pointing fingers, I'm simply baffled and bewildered by what's happening.
Big problem with that last sentence is though:
Even when the world wants to but your government will not let them - what can you do?
(I don't want to be posting threads about how the U.S. shot down help planes that entered their air space with purely good intentions to help the average Joe on the ground. If they say nay, the world can't do shit about it. Your citizens can, though!)

Your right but that does not mean that we can just go up to who ever is incharge and say hey do this right now!!!! it takes time for the people to get though the political BS and make a difference I also seriously douht that the US would shoot down a plane sent by NATO

Everybody including Germany has made mistake I agree that not accepting foriegn aid is incorrect and flat out wrong but this does not slove the problem it only makes matter worse

If it is kept quiet, kept quiet that the US government is being selective of which aid it accepts when the victims of Hurricane Katrina need all the aid they can get, that will make it worse.

Well, then help me understand how to get out of this messy situation?

That was and is my personal reason why I started this thread.

I just don't get it!

that's the probelm they are the only people that seem to clear see their decision we can not directly see their reason that is what, unfortunately, a representive democary is about having the ability to sometime accurately as a whole have an opinion heard the rights of the people made public there will eventally be something heard by someone in the US that has some power and it will be heard that does not mean that it will ever have something done.

Well, then call your representative. Or let your parents or family make a call. Isn't that what they're good for? (both family and representative! :D)

Another thought came to my mind: Y'all take a wild guess how appreciative the guys who loaded that plane are now that they can unload everything again without the help having reached those who'd appreciate it.

It's just unbelievable! You're asked for help, you are helping and then all of the sudden you're not welcome and get lied in the face?
Something is seriously wrong with that!

bah they're embarassed that thier wartime enemy is helping them.

bah they're embarassed that thier wartime enemy is helping them.
Well, if that indeed is the case - why the hell do they accept the pumps and equipment?
And since when are we still wartime enemies? Last time I checked we were and are fighting shoulder to shoulder in Afghanistan.

We will not forget all the help we received after WWII and during the Cold War - but we will also not forget this one, no matter how little the help is in comparison. Mark my words.

bah they're embarassed that thier wartime enemy is helping them.

Which one? The US has had alot of 'wartime' enemies...

I think it's more to do with the US Government's view that it does not need foreign aid, as that, in it's view would make it look weak when it is supposed to be self-reliant and the superpower etc.

And perhaps a little bit of embarrasment, when they called Germany part of 'Old Europe' etc, the same 'Old Europe' which now offers aid to the US.

If it is kept quiet, kept quiet that the US government is being selective of which aid it accepts when the victims of Hurricane Katrina need all the aid they can get, that will make it worse.

I don't disagree with you but there are some like million or odd amount of HUMAN lives who have been displaced with storm why fight

man, at a time that even so called hostile countries like Cuba and Venezuela have offered to send medical and humanitarian aid (even their experts), the Bush administration does such a huge blunder......shame, shame...

It's just unbelievable! You're asked for help, you are helping and then all of the sudden you're not welcome and get lied in the face?
Something is seriously wrong with that!

It's called the Bush administration.

It's called the Bush administration.

no it's called burcarcy ;)

I don't disagree with you but there are some like million or odd amount of HUMAN lives who have been displaced with storm why fight

If anyone's fighting, it's those fighting the German aid offered.

Those are the ones you need to look at to blame for the unneccesary suffering of the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

hold on? The "American People" elected the stupid buggers.....


Still, I feel sorry for those of you who are A) Not getting any aid or B) Are embarassed because you live in a democracy....

Bush wasn't elected the first time. There is still speculation / complaints that numerous Americans (primarily those whom are likely to vote Democratic) were disenfranchised in states like Ohio. And if you want to play the "democracy" card ... I think if *two* elections were held nation wide right now asking the "American People":

1: Do you feel our nation should rebuild New Orleans?

(That most Americans would likely vote yes.)

2: Do you feel our elected leader has done a good job in responding to the loss of a major U.S.?

(That most Americans would likely vote no.)

The 2004 Election was fairly close. Bush only had 51% of the popular vote and 286 of the Electoral College.

What will be interesting is to see if in 2008 if the areas hit hardest by Katrina: Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana -- which *did* vote for Bush in 2004, will now become "Blue" regions.


I am one of many Americans that believes that the post-Katrina respose was a complete and utter failure on the part of the City of New Orleans, State of Louisiana , and the Federal Govt. There is plenty of blame to be shared, and just because one can point a finger say at Mayor Nagin, hardly means that the refusal of humanitarian aid is justified without a *detailed* explanation to both the nation that offered aid and the people of the US.

So why was the aid rejected? As a voter in a democracy, I have the right to know why an US ally like Germany was not allowed to help us.

no it's called burcarcy ;)

Very well. The Bush Administration beucracy ie stupidity.

And perhaps a little bit of embarrasment, when they called Germany part of 'Old Europe' etc, the same 'Old Europe' which now offers aid to the US.Being named alongside Cuba and Libya was a bit worse. ;)

If anyone's fighting, it's those fighting the German aid offered.

Those are the ones you need to look at to blame for the unneccesary suffering of the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Yet again the anger is at large. Look the dissapoiment of the Government and it's failures does not mean that the people down in and around New Orleans are not going to get help. If you watched the news there were people driving out of New Orleans about three days after the strom the people down in New Orleans where not helping the situation either they were raping childern in the Dome now that has nothing to do with the USDA saying no to forigen aid it just means that we had supplies but just did not know how to get them there. The idea was nobody was ready dispate the warnings of all the experts things happin now is not the time to agrue over who is right and who is wrong if you don't agree with what has happined the express it as much as possiable I do not agree with refusing forigen aid although there has already been reports on CBS new network that the US has accepted 1 Billion dollars in different from of forigen aid.

Very well. The Bush Administration beucracy ie stupidity.

that goes for all politians not just Bush ;)

To agree with a few posts here...please don't assume the Bush administration or any ambassadors speak for the American people. Basically, we are just as embarassed as you are offended by the actions of our government.

Actually, I'm equally - or more - embarrassed by the actions of our "citizens" in New Orleans.

First, MANY who could have, didn't leave. This left rescue workers spread far more thinly than they should have been because they were pulling people off of rooftops that had no physical infirmity and were perfectly able to leave before the storm. Which meant that these workers could not be rescuing those who were truly unable to leave.

Second, looting for food is understandable if you are stuck there. Looting Nikes and Basketball shirts and jewelry and electronics is not. Period. Celine Dion is an idiot. She should buy everyone in New Orleans a flat screen or STFU. She's Canadian for goodness sakes. Go home. Leave Nevada and go home. I don't rant and rave about what Canada should and shouldn't do, return the favor moron. Back to the point. There is NO excuse for the looting, it just shows you are scum of the earth. You didn't loot jewelry and electronics because you were poor. You were poor because you were the kind of person that would loot those items at a time of crisis for your community. You damaged your community further than it already had been damaged. You decreased the chance that businesses would come back in and rebuild.

Third, not only did these idiots loot, but they often burned buildings as they left. That means you further destroyed the infrastructure, and you further spread precious rescue and emergency resources that needed to be elsewhere.

Finally, if any of you did any research on something besides what you are being spoonfed by the media, you would see that the entire situation is far more complex than you are being led to believe. (That is for two reasons. 1. The media thinks you are too simple to understand the deeper facts and figures they can get away with simplifying it. 2. You are too simple to understand...)

If you read accounts from the actual survivors, the reason that aid was so long in arriving is that this was a two part disaster. Most of the residents believed that after Katrina blew through, the worst was over. I've seen commented photo albums of people in the French Quarter and their comments on Day 2 generally reflected a feeling of relief that the damage wasn't worse. Then as the flooding began, there was the realization that it wasn't over, and would get worse before it got better.

That was the same thing being reported to the world. We truly didn't realize that the situation was becoming dire until day three.

Sure, the government - at every level - local, State and federal, performed poorly. Florida tried to help, as they had a better idea of what to expect from Andrew. But what the Europeans on this board don't understand is that the United States of America really is a group of united States. The States still have a GREAT DEAL of sovereignty. The federal government cannot come in and take over the show in a State without permission. I know a lot of you sheeple can't figure this out, but it's also why we have the second amendment and are guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms.

Read some history and you'll see that we wrote our Constitution while still quite hacked off at you Brits. We were very careful to include rules and laws that made it nearly impossible for the federal government to rule over a State. Even many of our "national laws" (like the old 55mph speed limit for example) were put into effect by manipulating tax dollars and spending, not by any real legal ability of the federal government. (In other words, the feds couldn't mandate the 55mph speed limit, but States that didn't do it, didn't get tax money to build interstates and such...)

The Constitution says the federal government can only create laws to regulate interstate commerce. Now to be sure, the feds twist this around in ways the writers of the Constitution are probably rolling over in their because of, but overall the effect is that the States are responsible for themselves, until they ASK the feds for help.

Louisiana did not do that. The governor is an idiot and the mayor of NO isn't looking great either.

So yeah, I'm not thrilled with the local and State governments of Louisiana and New Orleans, and the feds could likely have done a better job. But I'm equally embarrassed by the people of New Orleans.

(P.S. Note Mississippi didn't have these kinds of problems on a large scale like NO did...)

Have a nice day!

Hawkintom']Actually, I'm equally - or more - embarrassed by the actions of our "citizens" in New Orleans.

First, MANY who could have, didn't leave. This left rescue workers spread far more thinly than they should have been because they were pulling people off of rooftops that had no physical infirmity and were perfectly able to leave before the storm. Which meant that these workers could not be rescuing those who were truly unable to leave.

Second, looting for food is understandable if you are stuck there. Looting Nikes and Basketball shirts and jewelry and electronics is not. Period. Celine Dion is an idiot. She should buy everyone in New Orleans a flat screen or STFU. She's Canadian for goodness sakes. Go home. Leave Nevada and go home. I don't rant and rave about what Canada should and shouldn't do, return the favor moron. Back to the point. There is NO excuse for the looting, it just shows you are scum of the earth. You didn't loot jewelry and electronics because you were poor. You were poor because you were the kind of person that would loot those items at a time of crisis for your community. You damaged your community further than it already had been damaged. You decreased the chance that businesses would come back in and rebuild.

Third, not only did these idiots loot, but they often burned buildings as they left. That means you further destroyed the infrastructure, and you further spread precious rescue and emergency resources that needed to be elsewhere.

Finally, if any of you did any research on something besides what you are being spoonfed by the media, you would see that the entire situation is far more complex than you are being led to believe. (That is for two reasons. 1. The media thinks you are too simple to understand the deeper facts and figures they can get away with simplifying it. 2. You are too simple to understand...)

If you read accounts from the actual survivors, the reason that aid was so long in arriving is that this was a two part disaster. Most of the residents believed that after Katrina blew through, the worst was over. I've seen commented photo albums of people in the French Quarter and their comments on Day 2 generally reflected a feeling of relief that the damage wasn't worse. Then as the flooding began, there was the realization that it wasn't over, and would get worse before it got better.

That was the same thing being reported to the world. We truly didn't realize that the situation was becoming dire until day three.

Sure, the government - at every level - local, State and federal, performed poorly. Florida tried to help, as they had a better idea of what to expect from Andrew. But what the Europeans on this board don't understand is that the United States of America really is a group of united States. The States still have a GREAT DEAL of sovereignty. The federal government cannot come in and take over the show in a State without permission. I know a lot of you sheeple can't figure this out, but it's also why we have the second amendment and are guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms.

Read some history and you'll see that we wrote our Constitution while still quite hacked off at you Brits. We were very careful to include rules and laws that made it nearly impossible for the federal government to rule over a State. Even many of our "national laws" (like the old 55mph speed limit for example) were put into effect by manipulating tax dollars and spending, not by any real legal ability of the federal government. (In other words, the feds couldn't mandate the 55mph speed limit, but States that didn't do it, didn't get tax money to build interstates and such...)

The Constitution says the federal government can only create laws to regulate interstate commerce. Now to be sure, the feds twist this around in ways the writers of the Constitution are probably rolling over in their because of, but overall the effect is that the States are responsible for themselves, until they ASK the feds for help.

Louisiana did not do that. The governor is an idiot and the mayor of NO isn't looking great either.

So yeah, I'm not thrilled with the local and State governments of Louisiana and New Orleans, and the feds could likely have done a better job. But I'm equally embarrassed by the people of New Orleans.

(P.S. Note Mississippi didn't have these kinds of problems on a large scale like NO did...)

Have a nice day!

Darn Stright :D

Hawkintom']Actually, I'm equally - or more - embarrassed by the actions of our "citizens" in New Orleans.
<snip>
Have a nice day!
None of these are responsible for denying aid that was delivered, however...

Yet again the anger is at large. Look the dissapoiment of the Government and it's failures does not mean that the people down in and around New Orleans are not going to get help. If you watched the news there were people driving out of New Orleans about three days after the strom

Yes! THREE DAYS after the storm.

the people down in New Orleans where not helping the situation either they were raping childern in the Dome


Wonderful widespread generalisation of the people of New Orleans, well done.

Not.


The idea was nobody was ready dispate the warnings of all the experts things happin now is not the time to agrue over who is right and who is wrong


It is the time actually, because the people hit by Hurricane Katrina are being denied foreign aid.

By their own government.


if you don't agree with what has happined the express it as much as possiable I do not agree with refusing forigen aid although there has already been reports on CBS new network that the US has accepted 1 Billion dollars in different from of forigen aid.

The refusal of foreign aid direct will not help at all.

that goes for all politians not just Bush ;)

To the Hurricane Katerina survivors, Bush's ineptness is the worst.

Yes! THREE DAYS after the storm.



Wonderful widespread generalisation of the people of New Orleans, well done.

Not.



It is the time actually, because the people hit by Hurricane Katrina are being denied foreign aid.

By their own government.



The refusal of foreign aid direct will not help at all.

Obviously you don't know to much about NO these people but while only some where shoot at resuce helicopters or did you not see that over where your at New Orleans as often had problem with law and order while not all citizens have a problem with the law. And it did take a while to get these people the infastrue to these areas where practially wiped out and it made if difficult for the emegency people to respond and it still did not help that these people fought the government that was trying to help them. And what you do not SEE is the small people such as the Churches and private citizen there helping the people over 93 million dollars raised in less then 3 days for these people who are shooting and raping people. The overall attiude form the NO people was a degraice THEY WERE LOOTING A DAY AFTER THE STORM that does not mean that my heart does not go out to them it just means that they ought to behave in a time of hardship not act like Hooligans. :(

Obviously you don't know to much about NO these people but while only some where shoot at resuce helicopters or did you not see that over where your at New Orleans as often had problem with law and order while not all citizens have a problem with the law. And it did take a while to get these people the infastrue to these areas where practially wiped out and it made if difficult for the emegency people to respond and it still did not help that these people fought the government that was trying to help them. And what you do not SEE is the small people such as the Churches and private citizen there helping the people over 93 million dollars raised in less then 3 days for these people who are shooting and raping people. The overall attiude form the NO people was a degraice THEY WERE LOOTING A DAY AFTER THE STORM that does not mean that my heart does not go out to them it just means that they ought to behave in a time of hardship not act like Hooligans. :(

Some things you said I shall highlight:

'these people'

'overall attitude'

"these people who are shooting and raping people. The overall attiude form the NO people was a degraice THEY WERE LOOTING A DAY AFTER THE STORM that does not mean that my heart does not go out to them it just means that they ought to behave in a time of hardship not act like Hooligans."

Again, such a generalisation with a wide paint brush stroke.

Obviously you don't know much about the people of the New Orleans, because I would oh, you know, take the reasonable assumption and equation and say that not all and every single person of New Orleans was looting, raping and killing.

And a proportion of those who did loot did so for survival, for food, clean fluids and meds for their health, in a life threatening situation.

Seriously, your ignorance sickens me. I would not like to see a person from New Orleans read what you've posted.

Disgusting.

I just wanted to let you know that in Canada we saw news reports of German aid (food packets) being prepared to be sent to the US, so we appreciate that Germany intended to help. Canada sent much aid as well. In fact, our offer of help was not immediately accepted by the US, but in the meantime we prepared it anyway, and when our offer finally was accepted it was ready to go.

Our's was already in the air and then returned to sender.

(...)
I think it's more to do with the US Government's view that it does not need foreign aid, as that, in it's view would make it look weak when it is supposed to be self-reliant and the superpower etc.
And perhaps a little bit of embarrasment, when they called Germany part of 'Old Europe' etc, the same 'Old Europe' which now offers aid to the US.
Actually I take pride in being from Old Europe. Only because Rumsy said so doesn't make it a slur :D
Thing is though, turning down help after the whole world has seen how "well" the self-reliant superpower could handle the whole mess will not be a reason for deeper understanding between the nations.
"We don't need your help!" "Uhm, maybe a little?" "Send all you got!" "Meh! Changed my mind: We don't need your help!". (Not what actually happened :D)

Look, I'm in the Military. If food aid was turned down from Germany there is a reason for it. Food is not the problem we have. It's medical supplies IE medicines, blankets, clothing ect. We have plenty of food to cover the victoms of this great disaster. The Bush admistration would only turn down items of little need, and not direct this at making Germany look bad. I know Liberals hate Bush with a passion, and will make up any story to support thier agenda, but get off it! This disaster was a failure of local government run by Democrats and Liberals. But some how it has been turned into Bush's fault. Oh well, I guess that is the way the ball bounces. All are at fault here. Including Bush for not overiding the Governor and unifying all the braches of military under one commander. All aid from countries are welcomed and appreciated! But you also have to understand what aid is needed and what isn't! I'm more offended at Mexican troops being on our soil than anything! What has Mexico ever done for us other than invade our borders and live off our money? Thank you to all countries who helped, including Mexico. Nothing is too small. Just put your Bush hatred aside and put your mind where it is needed most. You'll be a happier person and more respected by others. Hosa

Erg... I believe that the French were the Founders of New Orleans.

Yes, in the French Quarter. The rest was build by Americans, by the way, the French Quarter had very little damage done to it.

Hawkintom'](...)
2. You are too simple to understand

You surely can't mean me! :p
Hawkintom']
That was the same thing being reported to the world. We truly didn't realize that the situation was becoming dire until day three.
Hawkintom']
Wonder why that is? It's not that FEMA had this lil' list with the biggest catastrophes that could happen to the U.S.:
1) Hurricane 3+ hits New Orleans
2) The "Big One" in San Francisco

And only as recent as July 2004 over 40 government agencies went through a mock hurricane drill.
[QUOTE='[NS]Hawkintom']
But what the Europeans on this board don't understand (...)

Oh, we do. Never underestimate our knowledge. That's insulting.
Hawkintom']
The Constitution says the federal government can only create laws to regulate interstate commerce. Now to be sure, the feds twist this around in ways the writers of the Constitution are probably rolling over in their because of, but overall the effect is that the States are responsible for themselves, until they ASK the feds for help.
Louisiana did not do that. The governor is an idiot and the mayor of NO isn't looking great either.
So yeah, I'm not thrilled with the local and State governments of Louisiana and New Orleans, and the feds could likely have done a better job. But I'm equally embarrassed by the people of New Orleans.

Please compare the dates of this
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976
with when Katrina made landfall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina

As good as it is that Brown is out of office - just how bad or uncaring do you have to be at your job when you find out via live interview on TV that 10,000s are without food for days which after the mayor and governess did what they could and he was in charge as head of FEMA.
Aside from Condi buying $1000,- shoes on Tuesday, Dubya fiddling guitar in California and Dick flyfishing in the North.
Guess it also didn't help that 1/3rd of the personnel & half of the guards equipment were abroad.
It just gives an overall really bad impression that no matter what those in charge do afterwards, they screwed up.

Hawkintom']
Have a nice day!

Make my day! (Just joking! :D)

Now I know that comedy central is not a valid source for information - but to those who are interested and who know (or want to find out) who Brian Williams is:
http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/celebrity_interviews/index.jhtml
I found it rather interesting what he had to say having lived through a week in New Orleans.

Look, I'm in the Military. If food aid was turned down from Germany there is a reason for it. Food is not the problem we have. It's medical supplies IE medicines, blankets, clothing ect. We have plenty of food to cover the victoms of this great disaster. The Bush admistration would only turn down items of little need, and not direct this at making Germany look bad. I know Liberals hate Bush with a passion, and will make up any story to support thier agenda, but get off it! This disaster was a failure of local government run by Democrats and Liberals. But some how it has been turned into Bush's fault. Oh well, I guess that is the way the ball bounces. All are at fault here. Including Bush for not overiding the Governor and unifying all the braches of military under one commander. All aid from countries are welcomed and appreciated! But you also have to understand what aid is needed and what isn't! I'm more offended at Mexican troops being on our soil than anything! What has Mexico ever done for us other than invade our borders and live off our money? Thank you to all countries who helped, including Mexico. Nothing is too small. Just put your Bush hatred aside and put your mind where it is needed most. You'll be a happier person and more respected by others. Hosa
1) If there is a reason for it then I am more willing to know 'cause it's my tax money being spent for you guys after you asked for food and then all the sudden didn't want it. The reason given was a flat out lie.
The Bush admin can't do anything to make Germany look bad. Nothing at all.
2) You, sir, are in denial. This has been reported by one of the biggest print media in Germany. They are not liberal, they stick to the truth. Get off it? I don't think so!
I do understand that there's different needs in different situations - but I honestly can't believe that your country asked for food (link via NATO is somewhere up there - trust the NATO?) and when we delivered they changed their mind. No explanations, nothing. Lies.
3) My mind is simply wondering why ask for exactly the help we have given if it is a) not appreciated or even worse b) not needed? Acting the way the U.S. just did does neither show respect, nor does it evoke any.
4) Hossa?

Here is another take on it.

Why would other nations WANT to help America?

Here is another take on it.

Why would other nations WANT to help America?
For Germany, it simply is a matter of course: Airlift to Berlin, U.S. being an ally via NATO, U.S. being one big (if not the biggest) trading partner with Germany - and last but not least, we Germans aren't so bad after all; we're actually pretty helpful and friendly!
Besides, those who suffer from a natural disaster shouldn't have to suffer more since we do see the people different than their government.

Here is another take on it.

Why would other nations WANT to help America?
First of all because we don't want people to die regardless of their nationality.
Second because we Germans recieved much help from the US after WWII and during the cold war and have the moral duty to return this favor.

Gah, American Government = Big headed arrogant freaks

Bet you anything that those who DID recieve the aid were ecstatic, and it was a wonderful thing to do. Pity that America is too arrogant to appreciate anything not created by itself.
Many Europeans don't like America because they've learnt the hard way; America doesn't seem to give a damn about Europe, the world or even itself (as shown in exhibit A, Hurricane Katrina mostly caused by global warming which America refuses to believe exists, and they do nothing about in order to maximise profits while green-aware countries suffer).

By America I of course refer to the Government. Most of the people are wonderful.

Look, I'm in the Military. If food aid was turned down from Germany there is a reason for it. Food is not the problem we have. It's medical supplies IE medicines, blankets, clothing ect. We have plenty of food to cover the victoms of this great disaster. The Bush admistration would only turn down items of little need, and not direct this at making Germany look bad.
*sniped*

The german goverment offered medical help. We offered for example a MedEvac (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1700331,00.html) airbus, which seems to be initially accepted. I just don't know if it really arrived, because I heard nothing about this later. Maybe some other person knows more about it.

Please compare the dates of this
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976 (August 27, 2005)
with when Katrina made landfall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina


Please compare the dates of the above two links with THIS:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana

The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.

Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.

Representing FEMA, Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, Department of Homeland Security, named William Lokey as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in the affected area.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: FEMA (202) 646-4600.

# # #

Many Europeans don't like America because they've learnt the hard way; America doesn't seem to give a damn about Europe, the world or even itself


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-day

Many of those Americans - who survived that day - are still alive.


(as shown in exhibit A, Hurricane Katrina mostly caused by global warming which America refuses to believe exists, and they do nothing about in order to maximise profits while green-aware countries suffer).


Dear God, do all of you really believe in Global warming? Let me guess, hurricanes are NEW to the Earth. :headbang:



By America I of course refer to the Government. Most of the people are wonderful.

Likewise, in spite of the insanity I see here, my visits to Europe have all been very pleasant.

:)

As good as it is that Brown is out of office - just how bad or uncaring do you have to be at your job when you find out via live interview on TV that 10,000s are without food for days which after the mayor and governess did what they could and he was in charge as head of FEMA.
Aside from Condi buying $1000,- shoes on Tuesday, Dubya fiddling guitar in California and Dick flyfishing in the North.
Guess it also didn't help that 1/3rd of the personnel & half of the guards equipment were abroad.
It just gives an overall really bad impression that no matter what those in charge do afterwards, they screwed up.


You hit the nail on the head there my friend. The IMPRESSION was terrible. Just some reality though, when Condi was shoe shopping, we had no idea on the ground how bad NO really was. I work in the media and aside from mentions in the news, it was business as usual. We really didn't catch on until day three that it was as bad as it was. That's because of a couple of things:

1. We get a lot of bad hurricanes. Usually the people go home and start rebuilding by day two.

2. The levees breaking were the straw that broke the camel's back here. And that didn't happen right away.

Same for Bush and his fishing and guitar playing. No one here realized it was as bad as it was. Still, a hurricane had hit, if he had any decent PR sense he'd have been down there already looking like he was doing something. Bush's arrogance is his downfall to be sure.

I'm not a Bush loyalist. I agree with some of his ideology, I disagree with much. I'm Libertarian. I don't like either of our major parties. But I still stick up for what I believe is right and wrong. And looting and staying after a mandatory evac order and using emergency resources that could have been used on people who could not leave is wrong.

Hawkintom']http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-day

Many of those Americans - who survived that day - are still alive.



Dear God, do all of you really believe in Global warming? Let me guess, hurricanes are NEW to the Earth. :headbang:


Of course, I definitely realise that the Americans contributed to World War Two, and that they joined on the side of the "goodies" if I could call the British, Russians and French the goodies. I didn't think that through properly - I meant modern day America.

Also on the Global Warming comment; I am not saying that Global Warming is the only cause for hurricanes. Evidently they occured before global warming, and indeed I did point out that the hurricane is only partially (scrap my use of the word mostly) due to the increased sea levels. The place where the hurricane was generated had risen by several feet I believe, and it undeniably had an effect.
I believe in Global Warming because there is proof of it. If there wasn't, then I wouldn't. Even if we turn out to be incorrect (highly unlikely after it has been proven so many times) then isn't it worth trying? I know that it isn't a likely scenario, but did you see the film the Day after Tomorrow? The consequences of Global Warming at their worst, possibly. If you visit, say, Spain you can see dried up riverbeds everywhere. You wonder where their water comes from. They have forest fires, the works. It is reasonable to say that Global Warming is caused by an excess of the greenhouse gases, which we produce through pollution.

*shrug*

Hawkintom']Please compare the dates of the above two links with THIS:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html
(...)
I did. Thanks for the link. Then again, it really makes me wonder why it took 2-3 days for the good folks at FEMA to react if they knew what was coming. Shouldn't they have been raring to go?

Hawkintom'](...)
Dear God, do all of you really believe in Global warming? Let me guess, hurricanes are NEW to the Earth. :headbang:
(...)
Yes, global warming (Greenhouse gases like CO2 and methane) and its counterforce global dimming (pollution particles in the lower and higher atmosphere) are very real indeed.
And while hurricanes are not new to the face of our planet, rising ocean temperatures do increase the hurricanes' severity and elevate their appearence.
You seem to underestimate how delicate the world climate is and that a rise in temperature of only a few degrees does have a direct impact on world-wide maritime currents (Gulfstream), world-wide water distribution cycles, cloud development, droughts & crop yield, as well as thunderstorms & floodings.

Hawkintom']You hit the nail on the head there my friend. The IMPRESSION was terrible. Just some reality though, when Condi was shoe shopping, we had no idea on the ground how bad NO really was. I work in the media and aside from mentions in the news, it was business as usual. We really didn't catch on until day three that it was as bad as it was. That's because of a couple of things:

1. We get a lot of bad hurricanes. Usually the people go home and start rebuilding by day two.

2. The levees breaking were the straw that broke the camel's back here. And that didn't happen right away.

Same for Bush and his fishing and guitar playing. No one here realized it was as bad as it was. Still, a hurricane had hit, if he had any decent PR sense he'd have been down there already looking like he was doing something. Bush's arrogance is his downfall to be sure.

I'm not a Bush loyalist. I agree with some of his ideology, I disagree with much. I'm Libertarian. I don't like either of our major parties. But I still stick up for what I believe is right and wrong. And looting and staying after a mandatory evac order and using emergency resources that could have been used on people who could not leave is wrong.
Thanks. See, the whole problem with the situation as is now is that I used to look up to U.S. America, land of the free, where everyone could pursue their dreem via boundless possibilities, the country that also is the only military super-power left which could annihilate the whole planet within half an hour and which sends bomber around half the globe to precision laser-bomb buildings via airducts.
And then a hurricane shows the world how power- and helpless the U.S. are when an expected natural disaster with a lead time of several days hits its homeland.
That raises questions. It simply must. About real, inflated and imagined threads, about priorities, about competence.
And when a mid-sized power like the Federal Republic of Germany is asked for help we are more than willing to do so, for the sake of the people.
What really ticks me off is when that requested help is suddenly turned down for curious, incomprehensible reasons covered up by lies.

As a small scale example: You trip and fall down, I offer a helping hand and wait for you to accept it, and when I reach down you're going "Nah, don't want it, I got my own hands!".
Not saying that next time you fall down I won't help, but maybe that last time will be remembered for just a second and I might just hesitate for a moment, pondering. Others might not be inclined to offer you a hand the second time around.

This entire thread is typical of arrogant Germans, typical European fools. America doesn't need your help, and I wish it would have all been refused. Fighting shoulder to shoulder with American troops in Afghanistan? LOL , yeah whatever, you obviously don't do your research. The entire EU can kiss my ass, what a pitiful bunch of countries. The governemnt in America doesn't give a crap about you or your countries, and contrary to what you may read here, we as people could not care even less about you. Have fun talking as much crap as you can about our country, in the end you will still be what you will always be, jealous. LOL!

Talk, Talk, Talk.... But, what can you do? Absolutely nothing. And my life goes on here in America, as usual, just perfectly fine.

troll drivel

back under the bridge young master!

back under the bridge young master!
Hehehe, is that where he just came from? :D

Erg... I believe that the French were the Founders of New Orleans.
The french quarter isn't underwater. It's the new part that is.

Hehehe, is that where he just came from? :D

:)

Plenty of Americans (like myself) do appreciate the aid offers coming from other nations and certainly do not share the opinion that any nation is better than all other nations. Frankly, there is no reason that the Bush administration should turn down food and machinery -- even if the pumps aren't used, just having them on hand for a few weeks, will give the engineers removing the water a chance to do so without having to worry about the existing pumps breaking down. Besides, logistically speaking, it is just as important for us to learn how to respond to disasters as it is for others. I seriously doubt that the White House considered that by allowing other nations to respond to *our* need, that this would help them refine their domestic management such that the next tsunami or volcano or earthquake in another nation might stand to recieve not only a large American humanitarian response but also one from other nations.

Bush really should be critized by our Congress for turning back the German aid. Not just because he did it, but because the reasons are bogus ... NATO food supplies aren't going to have mad cow diease BECAUSE the US already asked them to screen that food before hand. Bush simply doesn't want US newspapers to carry stories that he needs Berlin to bail him out. I'm sorry, but when I was raised in Texas I learned that if I can get a job faster with a VOLUNTEERS help, to be gracious, accept the help, and to learn from the experience.

You sure? French quarter hardly got flooded, I heard...
If the hurricane had happened 10 years later it would have, especially given the rate which New Orleans is sinking. You have to realize that the Fench Quarter used to be above the floodplain on a small hill.

contrary to what you may read here, we as people could not care even less about you.

Who's this we? Got mice in your pocket?
You're entitled to your opinion but kindly don't lump millions of us in with you when clearly there are a lot of Americans who disagree wholeheartedly with you right here in this thread.

bottom line... the Bush administration is in it for the cash... when germany offered aid it was rejected, but when Kuwait, Qatar, bahrein and otheres offered money (over 600 billion $) it was happily accepted...

Bush is an Oil Butcher...
he is addicted to oil...

It got turned down for fears of being tainted with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (mad cow) Dont personally believe it, but its a logical excuse at least since if mad cow gets into the US beef it would damage the economy terriblely

In all reguards the damage isnt as severe as the media trumpted it to be in the first place...remember the mayor saying 10,000 dead!!! i doubt it will even top 1000 in NO. So I doubt the aid was needed things seem to have calmed down a lot once the military took control.

bottom line... the Bush administration is in it for the cash... when germany offered aid it was rejected, but when Kuwait, Qatar, bahrein and otheres offered money (over 600 billion $) it was happily accepted...

Bush is an Oil Butcher...
he is addicted to oil...

why not? the arab states are just paying with the United states money in the first place...

btw how do you butcher oil?

This entire thread is typical of arrogant Germans, typical European fools. America doesn't need your help, and I wish it would have all been refused. Fighting shoulder to shoulder with American troops in Afghanistan? LOL , yeah whatever, you obviously don't do your research. The entire EU can kiss my ass, what a pitiful bunch of countries. The governemnt in America doesn't give a crap about you or your countries, and contrary to what you may read here, we as people could not care even less about you. Have fun talking as much crap as you can about our country, in the end you will still be what you will always be, jealous. LOL!

Talk, Talk, Talk.... But, what can you do? Absolutely nothing. And my life goes on here in America, as usual, just perfectly fine.

Totally Disagree with you. There are many Americans right here who disagree with you.


bottom line... the Bush administration is in it for the cash... when germany offered aid it was rejected, but when Kuwait, Qatar, bahrein and otheres offered money (over 600 billion $) it was happily accepted...

Bush is an Oil Butcher...
he is addicted to oil...

*nods head in agreement*
and how do you butcher oil? the oil refinery? lol

Food for the evacuees isn't an issue as the US has an abundance of it.

Less said about this the better. Emotions are strong right now.

To agree with a few posts here...please don't assume the Bush administration or any ambassadors speak for the American people. Basically, we are just as embarassed as you are offended by the actions of our government.

I find this part of the same article just as illuminating .
Though Berlin has been generous in its offer of support to hurricane victims, most Germans have been less forthcoming. The reason, according to a poll taken by polis-Umfrage for the German news agency DPA, is that many feel America is wealthy enough to take care of itself. Fifty-four percent of survey respondents said they would neither donate money nor other support for the Americans. That opinion is also reflected in the amounts raised by German charitable organizations. One week after it set up a special hurricane relief account, the German Red Cross said Friday it had only raised €790,000 for the Americans. By comparison, similar calls after the December tsunami and the 2002 flooding in eastern Germany drew more than €10 million.

According to Red Cross spokesman Frederik Barkenhammar, the main reason for the reluctance to give is America's relative wealth. "The US isn't a developing country," he said. But reactions to the emergency have also effected Germans' charity: Many were horrified by the shortcomings of the US government and the mass looting they saw on TV. But this isn't led by resentment of America, Barkenhammer emphasized. "The distress of a mother in New Orleans who has lost her children is just as enormous as that of a mother in Banda Aceh," he said.

bottom line... the Bush administration is in it for the cash... when germany offered aid it was rejected, but when Kuwait, Qatar, bahrein and otheres offered money (over 600 billion $) it was happily accepted...


You know what, even if that was true, IT MAKES SENCE! The U.S. does not need pumps. The U.S. does not need food packs or water or anything like that. The U.S. has those things in abundance and could easily transport it from California a lot quicker than from overseas! However, the U.S. can use the money so that the economy is not hurt as bad. If you think about it, it only makes PERFECT sense!

Well, in my opinion, it just goes to show that Bush will go into a fit and have grudges just because someone didn't agree with Iraq. It's pretty absurd that the US would actually not use aid that Germany is providing (generously, I might add) for the victims of Katrina.

Also, to the thread starter, you have a great country. I hope to be leaving for Germany in a year or two, actually, and possibly buying a house there.

You know what, even if that was true, IT MAKES SENCE! The U.S. does not need pumps. The U.S. does not need food packs or water or anything like that. The U.S. has those things in abundance and could easily transport it from California a lot quicker than from overseas! However, the U.S. can use the money so that the economy is not hurt as bad. If you think about it, it only makes PERFECT sense!

Well, in that case it doesn't make the least bit of sense to ask the interantional community to help out with food, medical supplies and technical equipment in the first place, now, does it?

And what makes even less sense is an American ambassador telling the press that the food packages have been delivered already, when a day later his government sends them back unopened... :rolleyes:

Well, in that case it doesn't make the least bit of sense to ask the interantional community to help out with food, medical supplies and technical equipment in the first place, now, does it?

From the outside, no. But when we though 10,000 people were dead and dyeing the need was there. Now that the need is not there, why have them send it? Think about the response to September 11. Too much blood. They begged for it and than realized it was not needed and started telling people to stop giving.

And what makes even less sense is an American ambassador telling the press that the food packages have been delivered already, when a day later his government sends them back unopened... :rolleyes:

I don’t know about this one, I don’t pay enough attention to the news I guess. But if it is true, I would tend to agree with you. I would also keep in mind the chaotic scene that was the relief effort. The ambassador could have though he was telling the truth…everyone could have.

From the outside, no. But when we though 10,000 people were dead and dyeing the need was there. Now that the need is not there, why have them send it? Think about the response to September 11. Too much blood. They begged for it and than realized it was not needed and started telling people to stop giving.

Have you read the article in question?
They didn't tell people to stop giving. They refused the German aid giving the pretext that it might be contaminated with BSE.
First of all, this is one of the most ridiculous reasons I heard since the Iraq war began, and secondly - do you even realise just HOW insulting this is? You are accusing a nation that was trying to offer a helping hand in providing what you had asked for of trying to POISON you??? Leaving aside the fact that the whole world knows that those accusations are completly without base whatsoever...



I don’t know about this one, I don’t pay enough attention to the news I guess. But if it is true, I would tend to agree with you. I would also keep in mind the chaotic scene that was the relief effort. The ambassador could have though he was telling the truth…everyone could have.

Well, just read the article this thread is about...

From the outside, no. But when we though 10,000 people were dead and dyeing the need was there. Now that the need is not there, why have them send it? Think about the response to September 11. Too much blood. They begged for it and than realized it was not needed and started telling people to stop giving.

From what I read ...
Germany shipped *two* shipments of around 15 tons of military grade food. Before the first two shipments arrived, papers are quoting that 20,000 people were fed. Those are fairly specific numbers!

1) Where was the fabled US food at this time? Why was this food not needed if it was eaten?

2) This is NATO grade food, which should already have been screened for things like mad cow diease, because it was designed to be consumed by US soldiers *gasp*. To now cite that German food that meets our standards doesn't meet our standards is insulting or stupid. Take your pick.

3) If the food was no longer needed because the US *finally* got its act together, when is a good time to tell the next German aircraft bound for Florida "Thank you, but we're full." When it is just about to land or before that?

The problem is somebody figured out that Berlin was able to feed 20,000 potential voters before Washington was. This was a bad mistake on the part of the Federal Govt.

I was just correcting him. The French did found the City of New Orleans proper. I'm not trying to blame the french, or be a french basher, I was simply stating a fact.

I heard that the French Quarter was quite well flooded. MY information is old, though. It could be outdated. I'll try to find a link when I get back from class.


The French quarter was the only part that didn't flood. Because back in the day people had sence, and built the city at the highest point.

From the outside, no. But when we though 10,000 people were dead and dyeing the need was there. Now that the need is not there, why have them send it?

And by what authority do you say the need is not there? Unless you are the director of FEMA, or something comperable, you are just talking out of your ass.

... you are just talking out of your ass.

*Bends over and spreads ass cheeks*

Please read this!
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9280872/
It had nothing to do with made cow or anything. I admit that the US has its problems, and many of them. But the rhetoric that spews out of some people’s mouths at the first chance they get is pathetic.
A technical problem of not having authorization turned the plane around. I gave you guys some room admitting that it sounded bad, but we didn’t yet know the whole truth. Now that we know, it looks like I was right all along. I’m sorry we have rules and problems with suspending those rules, but come on!

*Bends over and spreads ass cheeks*

Please read this!
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9280872/
It had nothing to do with made cow or anything. I admit that the US has its problems, and many of them. But the rhetoric that spews out of some people’s mouths at the first chance they get is pathetic.
A technical problem of not having authorization turned the plane around. I gave you guys some room admitting that it sounded bad, but we didn’t yet know the whole truth. Now that we know, it looks like I was right all along. I’m sorry we have rules and problems with suspending those rules, but come on!


A U.S. Embassy official, who agreed to discuss the matter only if not quoted by name...

Methinks I smell a mad cow....

*Bends over and spreads ass cheeks*

Please read this!
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9280872/
It had nothing to do with made cow or anything. I admit that the US has its problems, and many of them. But the rhetoric that spews out of some people’s mouths at the first chance they get is pathetic.
A technical problem of not having authorization turned the plane around. I gave you guys some room admitting that it sounded bad, but we didn’t yet know the whole truth. Now that we know, it looks like I was right all along. I’m sorry we have rules and problems with suspending those rules, but come on!

I never said it was turned away out of arrogance. Read my post again. I asked on what authority you said there was no need. The article doesn't say there is no need, it says the plane was turned away because of authorization problems. Therefor I don't see why you directed your responce at me.

Methinks I smell a mad cow....

Are you paying any attention? The German's said it was because of no authorization as well. And no one in polotics allows their names to be used anymore. Methinks you nose needs as much work as Michal Jacksons!

I never said it was turned away out of arrogance. Read my post again. I asked on what authority you said there was no need. The article doesn't say there is no need, it says the plane was turned away because of authorization problems. Therefor I don't see why you directed your responce at me.

Actually, the comments were directed at the other individuals that were saying that. I just posted your quote so I could say that I was bending over and spreading my cheeks. Sorry about the confusion, my fault.

I did like that comment, accully :)

No harm, no foul.

Well, I might then just go ahead and ask you to spread the word whenever you hear that we Germans didn't help that it's simply not true.

The German pumps that are currently used to get to the big pumps that usually kept New Orleans dry were developed after one of our streams imitated the Mississippi and flooded large areas (Oderhochwasser 1997).

And I'm well aware that the German help is appreciated by most of the Americans, especially those in need. I'm just not too sure that those affected by the catastrophe will understand or even know about these little things that makes it sometimes so damn hard to accept the Big Uncle Sam as a partner and friend.

And yet I find these comments most distrubing ...

Though Berlin has been generous in its offer of support to hurricane victims, most Germans have been less forthcoming. The reason, according to a poll taken by polis-Umfrage for the German news agency DPA, is that many feel America is wealthy enough to take care of itself. Fifty-four percent of survey respondents said they would neither donate money nor other support for the Americans. That opinion is also reflected in the amounts raised by German charitable organizations. One week after it set up a special hurricane relief account, the German Red Cross said Friday it had only raised €790,000 for the Americans. By comparison, similar calls after the December tsunami and the 2002 flooding in eastern Germany drew more than €10 million.

According to Red Cross spokesman Frederik Barkenhammar, the main reason for the reluctance to give is America's relative wealth. "The US isn't a developing country," he said. But reactions to the emergency have also effected Germans' charity: Many were horrified by the shortcomings of the US government and the mass looting they saw on TV. But this isn't led by resentment of America, Barkenhammer emphasized. "The distress of a mother in New Orleans who has lost her children is just as enormous as that of a mother in Banda Aceh," he said.

were these food rations which were called into question the only thing avlible to send for aid ? Because of our wealth people assume everything is OK ?

Is it not the impoverished suffering here ? For nations claiming to care so much for human life, your ready to accept suffering as long as egg is thrown on the face of a "so called ally" ? Im not saying the US can't handle its own, or that Europe is albiged to assist (as charity is meant to be charity.. not compulsary). However, form Europe who claims to care about life so much, I find it hard to belive these food products whose quality is questioned (whether it be right or not) is all they have to offer. What of money, clothes, supplies... etc... It is not as if a plane full of t-shirts could be turned away for mad cow.

were these food rations which were called into question the only thing avlible to send for aid ? Because of our wealth people assume everything is OK ?

Is it not the impoverished suffering here ? For nations claiming to care so much for human life, your ready to accept suffering as long as egg is thrown on the face of a "so called ally" ? Im not saying the US can't handle its own, or that Europe is albiged to assist (as charity is meant to be charity.. not compulsary). However, form Europe who claims to care about life so much, I find it hard to belive these food products whose quality is questioned (whether it be right or not) is all they have to offer. What of money, clothes, supplies... etc... It is not as if a plane full of t-shirts could be turned away for mad cow.

They did send technical equipment like pumps as well.

However, Germans will have a hard time understanding how there can be "impoverished" in such a rich nation. It's easy for them to understand poverty in 3rd world nations, but they have no concept of real poverty in first world countries.
They are not gloating in any way, I can assure you. However, having survived and witnessed numerous floodings of similar extend themselves, many will not grasp the concept that US organisations may not be capable of providing clothes for the victims.

What they see is a major city in the richest country of the planet, and they assume that this country would be more capable of helping itself than, say, Laos woud be. Hence they wouldn't be quite as generous, as they don't understand the need, really.

What i cant understand is that people are dying over in the U.S. and the administration is sitting back and trying to cover its f**ck ups...common people i always thought that people in the united states has some sort of aspiration in trying to achieve a democratic and neutral way of thinking, but in the last few days what i have seen is pure horse shit...Once again to much brainwashing from the NEWS CORPORATIONS and not enough freedeom of speach. :headbang:

They did send technical equipment like pumps as well.

However, Germans will have a hard time understanding how there can be "impoverished" in such a rich nation. It's easy for them to understand poverty in 3rd world nations, but they have no concept of real poverty in first world countries.
They are not gloating in any way, I can assure you. However, having survived and witnessed numerous floodings of similar extend themselves, many will not grasp the concept that US organisations may not be capable of providing clothes for the victims.

What they see is a major city in the richest country of the planet, and they assume that this country would be more capable of helping itself than, say, Laos woud be. Hence they wouldn't be quite as generous, as they don't understand the need, really.

I dont see why its so difficult.. there is no country in the world, no matter how rich or poor where poverty can't be found least of all Germany. Poverty in a capitalistic system is a reality... and America being far less socalist then Europe.. it should come as no surprise. Though it is hardly the norm.

It seems aparent to me, there is more thumbing of the nose then true concern for the less fortunate. And the outrange is particularly astonishing to me over the slow or inadequate response by government. Was it not but a few years ago when nearly 12,000 French citizens died during a HEAT WAVE... From a nation so concern with its people, with the best healthcare system globally. To have such death on such a level sparks to me, far more concern then a hurricane which flattened a city and its surrounding areas limiting access.

And yet I find these comments most distrubing ...



were these food rations which were called into question the only thing avlible to send for aid ? Because of our wealth people assume everything is OK ?

Is it not the impoverished suffering here ? For nations claiming to care so much for human life, your ready to accept suffering as long as egg is thrown on the face of a "so called ally" ? Im not saying the US can't handle its own, or that Europe is albiged to assist (as charity is meant to be charity.. not compulsary). However, form Europe who claims to care about life so much, I find it hard to belive these food products whose quality is questioned (whether it be right or not) is all they have to offer. What of money, clothes, supplies... etc... It is not as if a plane full of t-shirts could be turned away for mad cow.

Beside food rations, pumps and specialists were send. Also a MedEvac airbus was offered.

The german people however may have thought that other nations need money more than a nation which repeatedly calls itself the most wealthy nation of the earth. Plus, having to see pictures like this (http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/mein/14154/14154_2.jpg) may also not help to further a positive image of the American nation and may reduce the willingness of the german people to donate money.

What i cant understand is that people are dying over in the U.S. and the administration is sitting back and trying to cover its f**ck ups...common people i always thought that people in the united states has some sort of aspiration in trying to achieve a democratic and neutral way of thinking, but in the last few days what i have seen is pure horse shit...Once again to much brainwashing from the NEWS CORPORATIONS and not enough freedeom of speach. :headbang:

what cover up are you talking about ? People are dying because of a hurricane, not some government conspiracy. Not enough freedom of speech ? I dont know what your news outlets show you.. but we've seen nothing but dispair, and the news organizations have been ripping the administration a new one, along with all other government levels including local and state (as they should).

Beside food rations, pumps and specialists were send. Also a MedEvac airbus was offered.

The german people however may have thought that other nations need money more than a nation which repeatedly calls itself the most wealthy nation of the earth. Plus, having to see pictures like this (http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/mein/14154/14154_2.jpg) may also not help to further a positive image of the American nation and may reduce the willingness of the german people to donate money.

Because we could not come up with equally disturbing images of what Europeans think of America ? But would that stop us from doing the right thing in a disaster ?... It never stoped america in the past from sending massive relief to Iran after devestating earthqakes last year.

It is not required, it not even need be accepted.. but it should be offered! And you should not take insult if it isn't accepted, but take solise in the fact everything is under control.

The thing I thought great was that the Cubans stuck two fingers up at Bush. They offered the U.S. 1000 doctors and 26 tons of medical supplies! I would love to have been a fly-on-the-wall in the Cuban Cabinat room when they dreamed that one up! It wouldn't matter what they offered to US, they knew it would be turned down, they could have offered a million doctors and $20 billion in the secure knowlage that it would be refused! Brilliant, simply brilliant!

I dont see why its so difficult.. there is no country in the world, no matter how rich or poor where poverty can't be found least of all Germany. Poverty in a capitalistic system is a reality... and America being far less socalist then Europe.. it should come as no surprise. Though it is hardly the norm.

It seems aparent to me, there is more thumbing of the nose then true concern for the less fortunate. And the outrange is particularly astonishing to me over the slow or inadequate response by government. Was it not but a few years ago when nearly 12,000 French citizens died during a HEAT WAVE... From a nation so concern with its people, with the best healthcare system globally. To have such death on such a level sparks to me, far more concern then a hurricane which flattened a city and its surrounding areas limiting access.

I don't know too much about the heat wave, nor about the French health care system, but I seriously doubt it's as good as the Swedish one.

Now, how do I explain the view on poverty? Have you ever been to Germany?
Not all of the population is rich, of course not. But in case of an emergency like the on in New Orleans, nobody would stay behind because they couldn't afford transport. Poverty in Germany and poverty in the US are drastically different...

The thing I thought great was that the Cubans stuck two fingers up at Bush. They offered the U.S. 1000 doctors and 26 tons of medical supplies! I would love to have been a fly-on-the-wall in the Cuban Cabinat room when they dreamed that one up! It wouldn't matter what they offered to US, they knew it would be turned down, they could have offered a million doctors and $20 billion in the secure knowlage that it would be refused! Brilliant, simply brilliant!

these kinds of leaders like Chavez have been masters of PR for as long as they've lived... American administrators should be taking notes to employ them for the middle east!

It could have backfired though, if we accepted it and those doctors defected once they got here. They are risk takers those cubans...

these kinds of leaders like Chavez have been masters of PR for as long as they've lived... American administrators should be taking notes to employ them for the middle east!

It could have backfired though, if we accepted it and those doctors defected once they got here. They are risk takers those cubans...

Yeah, you can't fault the technique can you? :)

Because we could not come up with equally disturbing images of what Europeans think of America ? But would that stop us from doing the right thing in a disaster ?... It never stoped america in the past from sending massive relief to Iran after devestating earthqakes last year.

It is not required, it not even need be accepted.. but it should be offered! And you should not take insult if it isn't accepted, but take solise in the fact everything is under control.
1. I'm not insulted by your goverments actions.

2. I wanted to state that the german goverment indeed offered and send more help than merly food rations, like specialists (the THW), pumps and a MedEvac airbus.

3. I liked to show why some Germans may not so inclined to donate money to the supposedly most wealthy nation on earth, which also repeatly directly and personally attacked the people in a most disgusting way for not agreeing with them.

:)
Plenty of Americans (like myself) do appreciate the aid offers coming from other nations and certainly do not share the opinion that any nation is better than all other nations. Frankly, there is no reason that the Bush administration should turn down food and machinery -- even if the pumps aren't used, just having them on hand for a few weeks, will give the engineers removing the water a chance to do so without having to worry about the existing pumps breaking down. Besides, logistically speaking, it is just as important for us to learn how to respond to disasters as it is for others. I seriously doubt that the White House considered that by allowing other nations to respond to *our* need, that this would help them refine their domestic management such that the next tsunami or volcano or earthquake in another nation might stand to recieve not only a large American humanitarian response but also one from other nations.
Bush really should be critized by our Congress for turning back the German aid. Not just because he did it, but because the reasons are bogus ... NATO food supplies aren't going to have mad cow diease BECAUSE the US already asked them to screen that food before hand. Bush simply doesn't want US newspapers to carry stories that he needs Berlin to bail him out. I'm sorry, but when I was raised in Texas I learned that if I can get a job faster with a VOLUNTEERS help, to be gracious, accept the help, and to learn from the experience.
But they are used to strategically pump the water out of the areas the New Orleans' city pumps are. And the pumps got there the same way those food packages did.
It got turned down for fears of being tainted with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (mad cow) Dont personally believe it, but its a logical excuse at least since if mad cow gets into the US beef it would damage the economy terriblely.
(...)
Which is a bullshit argument because NATO certified those ration packs BSE-free. Your soldiers are munching on them right now in Afghanistan!
Food for the evacuees isn't an issue as the US has an abundance of it.
If that is so, why did the U.S. ask via NATO for food, medical supplies and blankets?
That's the main reason why Germany send food rations to the U.S. in the first place!
You know what, even if that was true, IT MAKES SENCE! The U.S. does not need pumps. The U.S. does not need food packs or water or anything like that. The U.S. has those things in abundance and could easily transport it from California a lot quicker than from overseas! However, the U.S. can use the money so that the economy is not hurt as bad. If you think about it, it only makes PERFECT sense!
Hah! If you didn't need the pumps, why did you ask for them and why are you using them?
Those pumps are specially made for disaster areas, lightly built with immense pumping power. And you don't have those. If indeed the U.S. had that kind of equipment, why were they asking for it in the first place?
It's not like the German government sends out help based on wild guesses!
And no, it doesn't make sense whatsoever!
Well, in my opinion, it just goes to show that Bush will go into a fit and have grudges just because someone didn't agree with Iraq. It's pretty absurd that the US would actually not use aid that Germany is providing (generously, I might add) for the victims of Katrina.
Also, to the thread starter, you have a great country. I hope to be leaving for Germany in a year or two, actually, and possibly buying a house there.
Make yourself at home anytime! (Just make sure that when you buy a house, you don't buy it in an area that could see a lot of flooding. I'm not joking about this one - we've had many floods in the last years that few anticipated to have as big an impact as they did...)
Well, in that case it doesn't make the least bit of sense to ask the interantional community to help out with food, medical supplies and technical equipment in the first place, now, does it?
And what makes even less sense is an American ambassador telling the press that the food packages have been delivered already, when a day later his government sends them back unopened... :rolleyes:
Thanks, Cabra West - if I rolled my eyes everytime I read all those things said, I'd hook up a generator to them and produce immense amounts of power :D
(...)
The ambassador could have though he was telling the truth…everyone could have.
If you obviously don't know what you're talking about you make a lousy ambassador. Ambassadors do represent their people, as does the legislation. If you know you're not telling the truth - even worse!
By the way - it's about time that your ambassadors started speaking German when giving a press conference directed at the German people. That's the least one could ask for - besides from telling the truth.
From what I read ...
Germany shipped *two* shipments of around 15 tons of military grade food. Before the first two shipments arrived, papers are quoting that 20,000 people were fed. Those are fairly specific numbers!
1) Where was the fabled US food at this time? Why was this food not needed if it was eaten?
2) This is NATO grade food, which should already have been screened for things like mad cow diease, because it was designed to be consumed by US soldiers *gasp*. To now cite that German food that meets our standards doesn't meet our standards is insulting or stupid. Take your pick.
3) If the food was no longer needed because the US *finally* got its act together, when is a good time to tell the next German aircraft bound for Florida "Thank you, but we're full." When it is just about to land or before that?
The problem is somebody figured out that Berlin was able to feed 20,000 potential voters before Washington was. This was a bad mistake on the part of the Federal Govt.
That's what I thought. At least take the last delivery and then tell the folks that you didn't need anymore. Not after everything has been packed up and already flown across the Atlantic!
As for the last paragraph - :p
And yet I find these comments most distrubing ...
were these food rations which were called into question the only thing avlible to send for aid ? Because of our wealth people assume everything is OK ?
Is it not the impoverished suffering here ? For nations claiming to care so much for human life, your ready to accept suffering as long as egg is thrown on the face of a "so called ally" ? Im not saying the US can't handle its own, or that Europe is albiged to assist (as charity is meant to be charity.. not compulsary). However, form Europe who claims to care about life so much, I find it hard to belive these food products whose quality is questioned (whether it be right or not) is all they have to offer. What of money, clothes, supplies... etc... It is not as if a plane full of t-shirts could be turned away for mad cow.
What the fuck! You've got to be fucking kidding me! We delivered what your government ASKED us to deliver!!!
The help we offered was given in good charity and friendship, turned down for very questionable reasons which were tried to be cloaked in lies, and you actually have the nerve to assume all that bullshit?
People like me simply do not understand that a nation that has a yearly defense budget of 420 billion greenbacks would like us to send you more than what is really needed to help people not die of thirst or starve. And it's an insult to question the quality of those ration packs - they are NATO certified and happily accepted by the U.S. forces in Afghanistan.
If you want those refugees clothed, head over to the next JC Penny and do that for yourself. Until your country gets its priorities straightened out, I can totally understand why people over here are reacting the way they are.
You should remember how your government reacted to our sovereign decision on Iraq and how persons like Rumsy badmouthed us for not buying what was presented at the U.N. - which, I might add, Powell immensely regretted just recently.
Man, your post almost made me go to the [More]-section on the smilies! :mad:
Your post makes it sound as if Germany was at fault that the wealth is distributed unevenly in the U.S. - instead of asking for foreign help, shouldn't you be asking why you have to rely on foreign aid? Be that money or clothing or technology.
The German people are a very charitable people, very helpful indeed to those in need, and also just and caring.
But we also speak up when treated like idiots, treated unfairly, being lied to, or for that matter, being looked down upon by people like you, Mr. Weisenheimer!

At any rate I'd like to thank all those that sent aid . And a special thanks to the Mexican Army who brought water and other aid. You know you are totally screwed when mexico has to bring you drinkable water .

Thanks. See, the whole problem with the situation as is now is that I used to look up to U.S. America, land of the free, where everyone could pursue their dreem via boundless possibilities,


Personally I believe that is still mostly true. We've given up more freedoms than I'd like, but overall anyone can grow up to be President as the saying goes.


the country that also is the only military super-power left which could annihilate the whole planet within half an hour


Russia is still pretty mighty. China will be one day, and they scare me. Hopefully tyranny will fall as technology improves and people there stand up to the corrupt leadership. I have great faith in the Chinese people once they overthrow their government.

and which sends bomber around half the globe to precision laser-bomb buildings via airducts.


Cool isn't it?!?!


And then a hurricane shows the world how power- and helpless the U.S. are when an expected natural disaster with a lead time of several days hits its homeland.


Ahh, I see - you are buying into the media hype. This hurricane was not typical. And it was huge! Furthermore, our individuality of States - while protecting us from some aspects of the federal government - also can leave us vulnerable in other areas, particularly if the local officials aren't competent to handle the situation.


That raises questions. It simply must. About real, inflated and imagined thread(t?)s, about priorities, about competence.


Don't forget though, the overwhelming EMERGENCY was created by the people who were able to leave, but chose not to leave when the evacuation was ordered.

At the risk of being politically incorrect :cool: I'd point out that it was largely the lower economic class that found themselves in this situation. The people who actually DO things heeded the warnings and got out. They were safely somewhere else waiting out the storm.

And then there was the politics...

Now put all that together and you have a TEMPORARY emergency situation. Lives will have been lost. But keep in mind that a lot of lives would have been lost regardless of how it was handled. This was a whopper of a storm. You are left with a tragic, but not exceedingly large, number of causalties when it is all said and done. The initial estimates of 10,000 are starting to look grossly exaggerated - thank goodness.

Watch now as the people of the U.S. go to work and put New Orleans back together. Hopefully with a valuable lesson learned regarding both the need to heed future evacuation warnings, and improved hurricane resistant building design.


And when a mid-sized power like the Federal Republic of Germany is asked for help we are more than willing to do so, for the sake of the people.
What really ticks me off is when that requested help is suddenly turned down for curious, incomprehensible reasons covered up by lies.


You know, the U.S. isn't a perfect country and we screw up in big ways sometimes. But that's just asinine. I brought up D-Day and you said "America helped..." We didn't just help, we sacrificed thousands and thousands of our sons to the cause. Granted we were on opposite sides at that time, but I assume most Germans believe that Hitler was wrong and had to be dealt with for what he was doing.

We are a generous nation and we did a great deal with helping after the Tsunami as well.

You know the point that bugs you guys - I think - is that we really will be just fine without the aid. The U.S.A. will cruise right along and rebuild New Orleans and the Gulf Coast and we will be fine.

You guys already seem to think that anyway...


most Germans have been less forthcoming. The reason, according to a poll taken by polis-Umfrage for the German news agency DPA, is that many feel America is wealthy enough to take care of itself. Fifty-four percent of survey respondents said they would neither donate money nor other support for the Americans. That opinion is also reflected in the amounts raised by German charitable organizations. One week after it set up a special hurricane relief account, the German Red Cross said Friday it had only raised €790,000 for the Americans. By comparison, similar calls after the December tsunami and the 2002 flooding in eastern Germany drew more than €10 million.

I believe in Global Warming because there is proof of it.


Could you share that proof with me? Because I haven't seen it...

If there wasn't, then I wouldn't. Even if we turn out to be incorrect (highly unlikely after it has been proven so many times) then isn't it worth trying?


No... what if the Earth is actually headed for an ice-age and our activities are delaying that ice-age?

Although it is not really in the Hippocratic oath, here in the U.S. our doctors are supposed to follow the rule of Primum non nocere - first do no harm.

Why don't we ask the same of our scientists?


I know that it isn't a likely scenario, but did you see the film the Day after Tomorrow? The consequences of Global Warming at their worst, possibly.


You AREN'T serious are you? Did you see the movie Batman? That isn't real either. Really now... you believe a Hollywood movie represents what might happen from "global warming?" Oh my...


It is reasonable to say that Global Warming is caused by an excess of the greenhouse gases, which we produce through pollution.


It's only reasonable if it is right. Climatology lesson:

http://www.sepp.org/leipzig.html



As independent scientists concerned with atmospheric and climate problems, we -- along with many of our fellow citizens -– are apprehensive about emission targets and timetables adopted at the Climate Conference held in Kyoto, Japan, in December 1997. This gathering of politicians from some 160 signatory nations aims to impose on citizens of the industrialized nations, -- but not on others -- a system of global environmental regulations that include quotas and punitive taxes on energy fuels to force substantial cuts in energy use within 10 years, with further cuts to follow...

As the debate unfolds, it has become increasingly clear that –- contrary to the conventional wisdom -- there does not exist today a general scientific consensus about the importance of greenhouse warming from rising levels of carbon dioxide. In fact, most climate specialists now agree that actual observations from both weather satellites and balloon-borne radiosondes show no current warming whatsoever--in direct contradiction to computer model results.


Here's a list of the scientists that have signed that declaration:


SIGNATORIES TO THE LEIPZIG DECLARATION

The following is a partial list only. Following the Kyoto Conference on global warming, the original Declaration was slightly amended. The posting of 33 additional signatories is pending verification that the scientists still agree with the statement. The list will be updated as these verifications come in.
Dr. John Apel, oceanographer, Global Oceans Associates, formerly with Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory.
Dr. David Aubrey, Senior Scientist, Marine Policy Center, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, Massachusetts
Dr. Duwayne M. Anderson,Professor, Texas A&M University
Dr. Robert Balling, Professor and Director of the Office of Climatology, Arizona State University; more than 80 research articles published in scientific journals; author of The Heated Debate: Greenhouse Predictions vs. Climate Reality (1992); coauthor, Interactions of Desertifications and Climate, a report for the UN Environmental Program and the World Meteorological Organization; contributor/reviewer, IPCC.
Dr. Jack Barrett, Imperial College, London, UK
Dr. Warren Berning, atmospheric physicist, New Mexico State University
Dr. Jiri Blumel, Institute Sozialokon. Forschg. Usti nad Labem, Czech Republic
Bruce Boe, atmospheric scientist and Director of the North Dakota Atmospheric Resources Board; member, American Meteorological Society; former chairman, AMS Committee on Planned and Inadvertent Weather Modification.
Dr. C.J.F. Böttcher, Chairman of the Board, The Global Institute for the Study of Natural Resources, The Hague, The Netherlands; Professor Emeritus of physical chemistry, Leiden University; past President of the Science Policy Council of The Netherlands; former member, Scientific Council for Government Policy; former head of the Netherlands Delegation to the OECD Committee for Science and Technology; author, The Science and Fiction of the Greenhouse Effect and Carbon Dioxide; founding member of The Club of Rome.
Dr. Arthur Bourne, Professor, University of London, UK
Larry H. Brace, physicist, former director of the Planetary Atmospheres Branch, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center; recipient NASA Medal for Exceptional Scientific Achievement.
Dr. Norman M.D. Brown, FRSC, Professor, University of Ulster.
Dr. R.A.D. Byron-Scott, meteorologist, formerly senior lecturer in meteorology, Flinders Institute for Atmospheric and Marine Science, Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia
Dr. Joseph Cain, Professor of planetary physics and geophysics, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Institute, Florida State University; elected Fellow, American Geophysical Union; formerly with NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (scientific satellites) and the U.S. Geological Survey.
Dr. Gabriel T. Csanady, meteorologist, Eminent Professor, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, Virginia.
Robert Cunningham, consulting meteorologist, Fellow, American Meteorological Society
Dr. Fred W. Decker, Professor of meteorology, Oregon State University, Corvalis, Oregon; elected Fellow, AAAS; member, RMS, NWA, AWA, AMS.
Lee W. Eddington, meteorologist, Naval Air Warfare Center
Dr. Hugh Ellsaesser, atmospheric scientist, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (1963-1986); Participating Guest Scientist, Lawrence Livermore Natl. Lab. (1986-1996), more than 40 refereed research papers and major reports in the scientific literature.
Dr. John Emsley, Imperial College, London, UK
Dr. Otto Franzle, Professor, University of Kiel, Germany
Dr. C.R. de Freitas, climate scientist, University of Auckland, New Zealand, Editor of the international journal Climate Research
Dr. John E. Gaynor, Senior Meteorologist, Environmental Technology Laboratory, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Boulder, Colorado
Dr. Tor Ragnar Gerholm, Professor Emeritus of Physics, University of Stockholm, member of Nobel Prize selection committee for physics; member, Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and Royal Swedish Academy of Engineering Sciences, author of several books on science and technology.
Dr. Gerhard Gerlich, Professor, Technical University of Braunschweig.
Dr. Thomas Gold, Professor of astrophysics, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York
Dr. H.G. Goodell, Professor, University of Virginia, Charlottesville
James D. Goodridge, climatologist, formerly with California Dept. of Water Resources.
Dr. Adrian Gordon, meteorologist, University of South Australia.
Prof. Dr. Eckhard Grimmel, Professor, University Hamburg, Germany.
Dr. Nathaniel B. Guttman, Research Physical Scientist, National Climatic Data Center, Asheville, North Carolina; former Professor of atmospheric sciences/climatology; former Chairman, AMS Committee on Applied Climatology.
Dr. Paul Handler, Professor of chemistry, University of Illinois.
Dr. Vern Harnapp, Professor, University of Akron, Ohio
Dr. Howard C. Hayden, Professor of physics, University of Connecticut
Dr. Michael J. Higatsberger, Professor and former Director, Institute for Experimental Physics, University of Vienna, Austria; former Director, Seibersdorf Research Center of the Austrian Atomic Energy Agency; former President, Austrian Physical Society.
Dr. Austin W. Hogan, meteorologist, co-editor of the journal Atmospheric Research.
Dr. William Hubbard, Professor, University of Arizona, Dept. of Planetary Sciences; elected Fellow of the American Geophysical Union.
Dr. Heinz Hug, lecturer, Wiesbaden, Germany
Dr. Zbigniew Jaworski, University of Warsaw, Poland
Dr. Kelvin Kemm, nuclear physicist, Director, Technology Strategy Consultants, Pretoria, South Africa; columnist, Engineering News; author, Techtrack: A Winding Path of South African Development.
Dr. Robert L. Kovach, Professor of geophysics, Stanford University, Palo Alto, California
Dr. David R. Legates, Professor of meteorology, University of Oklahoma
Dr. Heinz H. Lettau, geophysicist, Increase A. Lapham Professor Emeritus, University of Wisconsin
Dr. Henry R. Linden, Max McGraw Professor of Energy and Power Engineering and Management, Director, Energy and Power Center, Illinois Institute of Technology; elected Fellow, American Institute of Chemical Engineers; former member, Energy Engineering Board of the National Research Council; member, Green Technology Committee, National Academy of Engineering.
Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Sloane Professor of Meteorology, Center for Meteorology and Physical Meteorology, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Dr. J. P. Lodge, atmospheric chemist, Boulder, Colorado
Dr. Anthony R. Lupo, atmospheric scientist, Professor, University of Missouri at Columbia, reviewer/contributing author, IPCC.
Dr. George E. McVehil, meteorologist, Englewood, Colorado
Dr. Helmut Metzner, Professor, Tubingen, Germany
Dr. Patrick J. Michaels, Professor and Director of the State Office of Climatology, University of Virginia; more than 50 research articles published in scientific journals; past President, American Association of State Climatologists; author, Sound and Fury: The Science and Politics of Global Warming (1992); reviewer/contributing author, IPCC.
Sir William Mitchell, physicist, University of Oxford, U.K.
Dr. Asmunn Moene, former chief of Meteorology, Oslo, Norway.
Laim Nagle, energy/engineering specialist, Cornfield University, UK
Robert A. Neff, former U.S. Air Force meteorologist: member, AMS, AAAS.
Dr. William A. Nierenberg, Director Emeritus, Scripps Institute of Oceanography, La Jolla, California; Professor Emeritus of oceanography, University of California at San Diego; former member, Council of the U.S. National Academy of Science; former Chairman, National Research Council's Carbon Dioxide Assessment Committee; former member, U.S. EPA Global Climate Change Committee; former Assistant Secretary General of NATO for scientific affairs; former Chairman, National Advisory Committee on Oceans and Atmospheres.
Dr. William Porch, atmospheric physicist, Los Alamos National Laboratory, New Mexico.
Dr. Harry Priem, Professor of geology, University of Utrecht
Dr. William E. Reifsnyder, Professor Emeritus of biometeorology, Yale University; elected Fellow, American Association for the Advancement of Science; former Chairman, National Academy of Science/National Research Council Committee on Climatology; AMS Award for Outstanding Achievement in Biometeorology.
Dr. Alexander Robertson, meteorologist, Adjunct Professor, Memorial University of Newfoundland, Canada; author of more than 200 scientific and technical publications in biometeorology and climatology, forestry, forest ecology, urban environmental forestry, and engineering technology.
Dr. Thomas Schmidlin, CCM, Professor of meteorology/climatology, Kent State University, Ohio; editor, Ohio Journal of Science, elected Fellow, Ohio Academy of Science; member, AMS.
Dr. Frederick Seitz, physicist, former President, Rockefeller University, former President, U.S. National Academy of Sciences; former member, President's Science Advisory Committee; recipient, U.S. National Medal of Science.
Dr. Gary D. Sharp, Executive Director, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study and the Cooperative Institute for Research in the Integrated Ocean Sciences; contributed to the initial development of the Climate Change Program of the National Oceanic And Atmospheric Administration; investigated climate-related resource variabilities, sustainable development, and basic environmental climatology for the UN, World Bank, and USAID.
Dr. S. Fred Singer, atmospheric physicist; President, The Science & Environmental Policy Project; former Director, U.S. Weather Satellite Service; Professor Emeritus of environmental science, University of Virginia; former Chairman, federal panel investigating effects of the SST on stratospheric ozone; author or editor of 16 books, including Global Climate Change (1989) and Hot Talk, Cold Science: Global Warming's Unfinished Debate (1997).
Dr. A. F. Smith, chemical engineer (ret.), Jacksonville, Florida
Dr. Fred J. Starheim, Professor, Kent State University
Dr. Chauncey Starr, President Emeritus, Electric Power Research Institute, winner 1992 National Medal of Engineering
Dr. Robert E. Stevenson, Secretary General Emeritus, International Association for the Physical Sciences of the Oceans, and a leading world authority on space oceanography; more than 100 research articles published in scientific journals; author of seven books; advisor to NASA, NATO, U.S. National Academy of Science, and the European Geophysical Society.
Dr. George Stroke, Professor, Max Planck Institute for Meteorology, Munich, Germany
Dr. Heinz Sundermann, University of Vienna, Austria
Dr. George H. Sutton, Professor Emeritus, University of Hawaii
Dr. Arlen Super, meteorologist, U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, Lakewood, Colorado
Dr. Vladimir Svidersky, Professor, Sechenoc Institute, Moscow, Russia
Dr. M. Talwani, geophysicist, Rice University, Houston, Texas.
Dr. W. F. Tanner, Professor, Florida State University
Peter Arnold Toynbee, chemical engineer, F. Institute of Energy, London, England.
Dr. Christiaan Van Sumere, Professor, University of Gent, Belgium
Dr. Robin Vaugh, physicist, University of Dundee, UK
Dr. Robert C. Wentworth, geophysicist, Oakland, California, formerly with Lochheed Reseach Laboratory.
Dr. Robert C. Whitten, physicist, formerly with NASA.
Dr. Klaus Wyrtki, Professor Emeritus, University of Hawaii Sea Level Center



To be fair to you, who has the time to research every last scientific belief out there. We tend to trust the people that claim to be the leaders in the scientific fields. Delegation makes sense. Let those who specialize in a field simplify what they know, generalize it, and feed it to us. It would be a great system if people were honest. But they aren't. They have egos, politics, agendas, and "beliefs" and those get wrapped up in their science. And we end up with bad science sometimes.

Want proof? How about this:


http://www.globalclimate.org/Newsweek.htm

The Cooling World

There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production– with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.

The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has risen by a fraction of a degree – a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars' worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.

To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world's weather. Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic. “A major climatic change would force economic and social adjustments on a worldwide scale,” warns a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences, “because the global patterns of food production and population that have evolved are implicitly dependent on the climate of the present century.”

A survey completed last year by Dr. Murray Mitchell of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reveals a drop of half a degree in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968. According to George Kukla of Columbia University, satellite photos indicated a sudden, large increase in Northern Hemisphere snow cover in the winter of 1971-72. And a study released last month by two NOAA scientists notes that the amount of sunshine reaching the ground in the continental U.S. diminished by 1.3% between 1964 and 1972.


That was the "scientific belief" of the seventies. The arguments for it sounded a lot like your arguments now, didn't they?

"To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world's weather. Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view...

See why I'm skeptical???

these kinds of leaders like Chavez have been masters of PR for as long as they've lived... American administrators should be taking notes to employ them for the middle east!

It could have backfired though, if we accepted it and those doctors defected once they got here. They are risk takers those cubans...

I'm inclined to believe that Chavez was sinsere in his offer.

Personally, if I were president, I'd have accepted aid from both.

@Mr.Hawkingtom(sp?):

Regarding your last paragraph citing the Spiegel.YES, the majority of the German people think that the US is sufficiently capable of helping itself.The majority of the German people also think that Bush is a completely incompetant idiot along with the rest of the US beaurocracy.In this case,you´ve proved us right.It´s not about us feeling bad because you sent back aid you don´t need,it´s about asking for aid,refusing and then lying into our faces with some completely bullshit reason about why you refused it.That´s no way to treat a friend and ally.THAT`S why we´re pissed.Get it?

It´s not about the what,it´s about the how and why.Those two things are very important in Germany.

Hawkintom']Personally I believe that is still mostly true. We've given up more freedoms than I'd like, but overall anyone can grow up to be President as the saying goes.

Hehehe, isn't that exactly the problem? :D I wouldn't want just anyone to lead my country, I'd like to have smart, reasonable, just people to make life-saving or life-threatening decisions. Maybe that's just me, though.

Hawkintom']
Russia is still pretty mighty. China will be one day, and they scare me. Hopefully tyranny will fall as technology improves and people there stand up to the corrupt leadership. I have great faith in the Chinese people once they overthrow their government.

Yeah, well - China has been around for over 5,000 years and I believe they truly are measuring things on a completely different scale than we do...
But yes, I also have great faith in the Chinese people. But not in their government, to be honest.

Hawkintom']
Cool isn't it?!?!

How did Darth Vader put it? "Impressive... Most impressive!"
Then again, he also said "Don't be too proud of that technological terror you've constructed" :D

Hawkintom']
Ahh, I see - you are buying into the media hype. This hurricane was not typical. And it was huge! Furthermore, our individuality of States - while protecting us from some aspects of the federal government - also can leave us vulnerable in other areas, particularly if the local officials aren't competent to handle the situation.

I'm not buying into the media hype - I'm only convinced that the areas affected by hurricanes (or typhoons for that matter) will see more of those monsters in the next years.
Man, up until last week I wouldn't have believed that Spain could have Tornados, either.

And yes, I'm also relieved that the first estimated casualty numbers seem to be way to high. Good for the people indeed!

Hawkintom']
You know, the U.S. isn't a perfect country and we screw up in big ways sometimes. But that's just asinine. I brought up D-Day and you said "America helped..." We didn't just help, we sacrificed thousands and thousands of our sons to the cause. Granted we were on opposite sides at that time, but I assume most Germans believe that Hitler was wrong and had to be dealt with for what he was doing.

Not saying that I don't appreciate the way our history turned out after D-Day and WWII.
But please don't argue that the U.S. got involved because they are such nice people. The "cause" you are talking about was righteous self-defense and V-E, not to liberate the German people, which happened alongside it.

Hawkintom']
You know the point that bugs you guys - I think - is that we really will be just fine without the aid. The U.S.A. will cruise right along and rebuild New Orleans and the Gulf Coast and we will be fine.

You guys already seem to think that anyway...


@Mr.Hawkingtom(sp?):

Regarding your last paragraph citing the Spiegel.YES, the majority of the German people think that the US is sufficiently capable of helping itself.The majority of the German people also think that Bush is a completely incompetant idiot along with the rest of the US beaurocracy.In this case,you´ve proved us right.It´s not about us feeling bad because you sent back aid you don´t need,it´s about asking for aid,refusing and then lying into our faces with some completely bullshit reason about why you refused it.That´s no way to treat a friend and ally.THAT`S why we´re pissed.Get it?

It´s not about the what,it´s about the how and why.Those two things are very important in Germany.
That's exactly the point. I never thought that the U.S. really depended on our help. But the way they acted and argued simply is not acceptable among friends and allies. That is what really upset me.

It´s not about us feeling bad because you sent back aid you don´t need,it´s about asking for aid,refusing and then lying into our faces with some completely bullshit reason about why you refused it.That´s no way to treat a friend and ally.THAT`S why we´re pissed.Get it?

It´s not about the what,it´s about the how and why.Those two things are very important in Germany.

Mr. Bush doesn't represent all Americans. He is a selfish man that honestly doesn't deserve to be our President. He's lied about many things: like WMD in Iraq, the reason for turning back German planes, and most importantly right now on the domestic front ... about *his* administration's ability to respond to a disaster. He promised to protect the United States and he flat out failed. And he is completely at fault, as it is not our job to check the resume of candidates for director of FEMA (one of the most important jobs in the US) -- it was his job. And he hired a friend who happened to be grossly unqualified.

That's exactly the point. I never thought that the U.S. really depended on our help. But the way they acted and argued simply is not acceptable among friends and allies. That is what really upset me.

All right - fair enough. Let me be one of the first to say I'm Sorry that we offended you. Personally, I think you guys are coming up with some serious overanalyzing of the issues and maybe even a little conspiracy theory to explain something that probably boiled down to beauraucray and red-tape in action, but I sincerely apologize that we offended you.

I would point out though, the Germany hasn't in recent years, been afraid of offending us either. I have some friends that I can tell them they are being stupid or annoying when they are doing something I don't like, and we'll still be friends afterwards. Maybe we need to be that kind of allies.

Let's all get thicker skin and agree to disagree on some things. And let's face it, regardless of whether we are allies or friends, the U.S. has a tremendously different world-view than most of Europe. That's not new, and (hopefully) it isn't going to change anytime soon. Why would anyone expect it to change?

:)

Mr. Bush doesn't represent all Americans.


Well technically that is not true. We are a representative democracy (look it up) and as such, he was elected to do just that. You may not agree with him, but he was elected to represent you and you'll have to change the Constitution for that to be different.

He is a selfish man that honestly doesn't deserve to be our President.


I'm being technical again, but he does in fact deserve to be President. He was elected according to the laws and rules of our Nation. But I get what you are saying, and you probably have a point. Unfortunately, I believe our system is flawed so that we rarely get anyone nominated for the Presidency in either of the two major parties that deserves or ought to be President. It becomes a matter of trying to choose the lesser of two evils.


He's lied about many things: like WMD in Iraq,


There is a difference between being wrong and lying. I believe Mr. Bush was wrong about WMD. He had bad intelligence on the issue. I suspect he was as surprised and more frustrated that they didn't find WMD as any of his supporters. It made things much tougher for him. Had they been there, he would have largely been vindicated and given much freer reign on further steps. Instead, the failure to find WMD has hampered his ability to do many of the things he would liked to have done militarily.

right now on the domestic front ... about *his* administration's ability to respond to a disaster.


Actually, I read today that he has in fact taken responsibility for his part in the failure to get aid to the Katrina victims in a timely manner. You gotta hate when they do that. Most politicians won't ever admit they made a mistake so you can usually bet against it, but when they do it throws a wrench in things.

And he is completely at fault,


No he's not, quit being melodramatic.

:rolleyes:

Hawkintom']All right - fair enough. Let me be one of the first to say I'm Sorry that we offended you. Personally, I think you guys are coming up with some serious overanalyzing of the issues and maybe even a little conspiracy theory to explain something that probably boiled down to beauraucray and red-tape in action, but I sincerely apologize that we offended you.

I would point out though, the Germany hasn't in recent years, been afraid of offending us either. I have some friends that I can tell them they are being stupid or annoying when they are doing something I don't like, and we'll still be friends afterwards. Maybe we need to be that kind of allies.

Let's all get thicker skin and agree to disagree on some things. And let's face it, regardless of whether we are allies or friends, the U.S. has a tremendously different world-view than most of Europe. That's not new, and (hopefully) it isn't going to change anytime soon. Why would anyone expect it to change?

:)
Thanks. I can accept that ;)

... but it seemed to fit in with what we were talking about. Seems to me the U.S. upsetting Germany by not taking the supplies is no worse than some of the slights that we get from Germany:

http://www.dmko.info/coffinposter.jpg

"Haven't those soldiers earned the right not to be exploited by some European politician?"

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/09/election_campai.html

Or great now one of the few nations out there I actually respect is going to hate us

I hate Bush more and more as time goes by :mp5:

I'd like to reiterate this as well. I was touched that Cuba, North Korea, and Iran were so quick to respond, and felt we should have accepted the aid.If the Bush Gov Burned NATO-approved food from Europe...

I would be scared they'd Burn the Cuban, Venezuelan or Iranian Doctors upon arrival...(I would put a smiley...if it was nor so sad)

I was kind of appalled by some peoples' reactions to Castro's proposal... "Drop the medicine in the ocean and send the doctors home in shame"...I heard someone at school say... "Drop The Doctors with the medicine" in the Ocean :headbang: