NationStates Jolt Archive


breaking godwins law. ref bush

Armacor
12-09-2005, 15:40
Part 1: Breaking Godwin's Law (http://www.voicesofunreason.com/fullthread$9093)
Part 2: A little bit of context (http://www.voicesofunreason.com/fullthread$9090)
Part 3: The Obvious Similarities (http://www.voicesofunreason.com/fullthread$9105)

the above is parts 1-3 of an essay by Brian Webber from here (http://www.voicesofunreason.com/writingsandtalkbacks)

I will not quote the entire thing, but a few of the quotes he has i will copy for public consumption (and the avoidance of needing to read the whole thing).

From JusticeForNone.com (http://justicefornone.com/article.php?story=20050527204356114), told by the site's administrator
-
So I heard the moving van pull up this morning. When I got home this evening I happened to spy my neighbor (he's like 85 years old - I don't know exactly, but he's old, talks and moves very slowly) standing on the sidewalk next to the van. I walked over and shook his hand, and we started talking. I asked him where he was moving, and he said, "Back to Germany."

[...]

"No," he answered me. "I'm going back because I've seen this before." He then commenced to explain that when he was a kid, he watched with his family in fear as Hitler's government committed atrocity after atrocity, and no one was willing to say anything. He said the news refused to question the government, and the ones who did were not in the newspaper business much longer. He said good neighbors, people he had known all his life, turned against his family and other Jews, grabbing on to the hate and superiority "as if they were starved for it" (his words).

He said he was too old to see it happen right in front of his eyes again, and too old to do anything about it, so he was taking his family back to Europe on Thursday where they would be safe from George W. Bush and his neocons. He seemed resolute, but troubled, nonetheless, as if being too young on one end and too old on the other to fight what he saw happening was wearing on him.

I gotta tell you - it was chilling. I let him talk, and the whole time, my gut was churning, like I had mutated butterflies in my stomach. When he was finished, he shook my hand, gripping it really hard, until his knuckles turned white and he was shaking. He looked me in the eyes, hard, and said, "I will pray for your family and your country."

This is just the first of many such tales. I hope that by relating these to you dear readers, you can understand why it's not only important that we allow comparisons between Bush and Hitler to be made in public discourse, but why it is neccesary, if we are to prevent the addition of another asterisk to American history. It had taken us 230 years to become the great country we were, through a greuling but ultimately worthwhile process of trial and error that took us through such atrocities as slavery, laws allowing spousal abuse, poll taxes, Vietnam, and many others. And it's taken George W. Bush all of 5 years to almost entirely dismantle it.

I can't let that happen. I love my country too much. Even if I end up like Hans Scholl, Sophie Scholl, and Christoph Probst (more on them later), I can't just stand back and do nothing anymore.

And now, since I opened this opening (no pun intended) with a quote, I shall close with one.

"Let me tell you a story.

There once was a man named Adolf Hitler. He spoke with conviction and had a funny mustache. He was elected to office in a place called Germany, at a time when morale was low.

Then one day, in 1933, someone lit fire to an important building called the Reichstag, and Germans—ever fearful—handed their freedoms to Hitler so that he might lead them, unrestricted, through a time of national emergency. He vowed to protect them, and vowed to restore the dignity and purity his people so richly deserved.

He then killed millions and abolished democracy.

Oh, and get this: There wasn’t a damn thing the Germans could do about it. They weren’t allowed to resist him. They weren’t allowed to criticize his government. The power they had given him was absolute.

Therein lies the moral of the story: You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear." - Jonathan David Morris (http://www.readjdm.com/main/jdm/more/185/)
Armacor
12-09-2005, 15:43
now being that it is just trolling to post without commentary, but also being that the above is a commentary essay, making it hard to comment further on, i just have to say i didnt think it was this bad... However after reading the entirety of the essay available and all of it's hyper links, and then modifying them with their political stance (ie toning them down) i still come to the following conclusions

1) I am very happy i live in australia and not the US
2) I hope Australia isnt confused with Austria too much.
3) I think we need to get rid of our PM ASAP

4) If i lived in the US still i would be leaving now...
Balipo
12-09-2005, 15:44
Very poignant indeed. I've seen a lot of the Canadian families in our area that have lived in the US for years pack up and return to Canada.

It seems like the land of the free and home of the brave we enjoyed for so long has become the land of the lost and home of those too weak to defend their rights as citizens.
[NS]Simonist
12-09-2005, 15:51
I think it's safe to say I took a good two or three moments letting that all sink in.

It's a lot to read, but even as anti-Bush as I am, I never had considered it that way at all. In fact, I've been one of the ones rolling my eyes and muttering near-incoherences about Godwin to myself as I type a witty reply.

Holy crap.

It seems like the land of the free and home of the brave we enjoyed for so long has become the land of the lost and home of those too weak to defend their rights as citizens.
Not all too weak -- but some of us would rather NOT be shot as dissenters (usually by the very people who don't realize where the country's going), or, in my case, see another friend ( or myself :( )go to jail over something that never catches the attention of the powerful.
The South Islands
12-09-2005, 15:55
Simonist']
Not all too weak -- but some of us would rather NOT be shot as dissenters (usually by the very people who don't realize where the country's going), or, in my case, see another friend ( or myself :( )go to jail over something that never catches the attention of the powerful.

Gee... I haven't heard of anyone being shot as a dissenter for a Half a century. Please enlighten me.
[NS]Simonist
12-09-2005, 16:07
Gee... I haven't heard of anyone being shot as a dissenter for a Half a century. Please enlighten me.
Gladly, but thanks a lot for your condescending tone and instant implication that I'm just saying that for shock. No, really. Talk down to me, baby.

Since the start of this WOT crap a lot of locals have been protesting every so often *cough*SundaysandThursdays*cough* in a very well-known park in the central shopping district of the metro area. Nothing ever too annoying, we'd just have signs and occasionally -- okay, quite often -- the people driving by would honk in support (or they'd flip us off and from time to time throw a beer can in our direction).

Two months ago, we were out as usual, kind of hanging out, waiting for more people to get there, and some guys come by threatening that they were going to kick our asses or something, pretty much we just laughed it off after they left. I had previous plans with my boyfriend, so I left before things really got interesting, but late in the night I got a call from one of my friends asking if I'd seen the news, which of course I hadn't (like my boyfriend and I would spend our time together watching the news....). Four of those guys came back by and started a fight, which several people got involved in on our side, and two of them were shot. Only one of those guys was arrested for it, and I never even heard from anybody what he was charged with.

I've been kind of avoiding the protests since then, though part of it is because of work.

Not a story I really wanted to share in the least bit, but since you acted like I had something to prove.....
SimNewtonia
12-09-2005, 16:57
now being that it is just trolling to post without commentary, but also being that the above is a commentary essay, making it hard to comment further on, i just have to say i didnt think it was this bad... However after reading the entirety of the essay available and all of it's hyper links, and then modifying them with their political stance (ie toning them down) i still come to the following conclusions

1) I am very happy i live in australia and not the US
2) I hope Australia isnt confused with Austria too much.
3) I think we need to get rid of our PM ASAP

4) If i lived in the US still i would be leaving now...

I'm beginning to have concerns that Australia is starting the same, gradual walk. We're about 10 years, say, behind where the US is, averaging things tha have and haven't happened according to when they happened in the US off the top of my head.

As long as Howard isn't able to get many 'emergency powers' passed we should be ok. He's having enough trouble with his backbenchers right now that it shouldn't be an issue. What we really need right now, though, is an OPPOSITION that doesn't just oppose for the sake of opposing, or isn't completely inept.

I assure you, had there been an able opposition at the last election, things would have been a LOT closer.
Dar-nas-tl
12-09-2005, 18:09
I'm going with Armacore and SimNewtonia on this one. Bush and Howard are both in it for themselves, not us. Not to worry though, we won't hold G.W. against you Americans as long as you agree to forgive us for little John. ;)

As for Simonist, I'm hoping you aren't too discouraged, someone's going to have to make some argumentative noises. :headbang: Everyone knows that us people down here in Australia (not Austria) can't be bothered to get of our seats when Summer comes around, and for the rest of the year we just move the fridge over to the chair and stock up on XXXX, so I guess that leaves it up to you folks over in the US.

Finally, just for a bit of random peacebrokering (if that's even how you say it) I'm sure, or at least I hope, that South Islands was not meaning to be condescending, but more likely was interested in what sounded like, and did prove to be, quite an interesting and unexpected tale.

Goodluck to all.
Super-power
12-09-2005, 21:18
It seems like the land of the free and home of the brave we enjoyed for so long has become the land of the lost and home of those too weak to defend their rights as citizens.
Bush hasn't taken away our trump card away yet - firearms. And considering that there are approx 80 million firearm-owning citizens in the US, that pretty much saturates the number of govt officials that own a firearm.

Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government... is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms. ... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be possible
[NS]Simonist
12-09-2005, 21:45
Bush hasn't taken away our trump card away yet - firearms. And considering that there are approx 80 million firearm-owning citizens in the US, that pretty much saturates the number of govt officials that own a firearm.
Much as I'd like to hold the hope that we can rely on the firearm-owning citizens to fight Bush should it get that bad, you have to face that not all of those 80 million citizens are going to stand against him. In fact, my guess would be that a significant number will stand with him.
German Nightmare
12-09-2005, 22:14
Let me just tell y'all that I honestly appreciate this calm and sensible thread. (Well, so far, anyway.)

While everyone has to decide whether or not it is eligible to compare one man of power (Bush) with another (Hitler), let me, as a German, say this:

Our people have learned the hard way and when looking over the great pond in recent years, made easily into the great puddle via the internet and other media, a saying from the darker times comes to mind.

"Wehret den Anfängen". Literally it means "Resist the beginnings".

As a foreigner who has spent many times, shorter and longer stays, in different places of the U.S., I was and still am simply amazed of how quickly and easily the U.S. citizens gave up their liberties and civil rights for a deceptive sense of security.
I wonder if I'm only overly historically aware and therefore might worry a little too easily - then again I get my information from various sources, many of which are Americans I know and the whole spectrum of the U.S. media and that simply unsettles me.

I would consider the possession of weapons not as the ace up my sleeve but as the last straw. I don't like guns, and I can imagine only few situations in which I would want to wield one.

In the meantime, I would do everything to prevent being stripped of my rights.

As a final uttering: I know how bad you Australians really are. Wasn't Hitler one of you before he took over Germany? :D
Good night & take care!
CSW
12-09-2005, 22:18
Simonist']Much as I'd like to hold the hope that we can rely on the firearm-owning citizens to fight Bush should it get that bad, you have to face that not all of those 80 million citizens are going to stand against him. In fact, my guess would be that a significant number will stand with him.
And militias are horrid at fighting regular army troops. The idea of the citizen soldier fighting and holding his own against a regular army is a myth, it never happened. The only way untrained forces can even come close to inflicting parity in casualties is through non-conventional means of warfare.
[NS]Simonist
12-09-2005, 22:26
And militias are horrid at fighting regular army troops. The idea of the citizen soldier fighting and holding his own against a regular army is a myth, it never happened. The only way untrained forces can even come close to inflicting parity in casualties is through non-conventional means of warfare.
I'm well aware of that. I'd rather leave the country and everybody I love than see a citizen uprising, because I'm very aware that it wouldn't help whatsoever. However, I was just addressing the point that somebody else brought up, not insinuating that I honestly banked on a successful overthrow. Maybe sarcasm isn't going too well today.
CSW
12-09-2005, 22:28
Simonist']I'm well aware of that. I'd rather leave the country and everybody I love than see a citizen uprising, because I'm very aware that it wouldn't help whatsoever. However, I was just addressing the point that somebody else brought up, not insinuating that I honestly banked on a successful overthrow.
I was just supporting your point. Any uprising would most likely end in a large amount of death and wouldn't solve anything. I'd be heading for the doors. I've always found Sweden to be a nice place.
[NS]Simonist
12-09-2005, 22:30
I was just supporting your point. Any uprising would most likely end in a large amount of death and wouldn't solve anything. I'd be heading for the doors. I've always found Sweden to be a nice place.
Oh, ok, sorry. Sounded like you were trying to correct me. I got confused as to where it was that I appeared to support rioting in the streets :p

Sorry 'bout that
Munos
12-09-2005, 22:36
Boy oh boy, only 3 more years to go! Then the nation will be back to normal again. Whew! It'll be so nice when Hitler's out of office.

Get real.
Armacor
13-09-2005, 02:05
well i dont think he is hitler, however the similarities are concerning. There are a number of quotes available in that essay that should be addressed in public, and thought about by everyone.

The quote from the Holocaust survivor is scary. The 12 signs of Fascism - in part 2 - is more scary.
Armacor
13-09-2005, 18:54
no other comments, from anyone?

ok... bump anyway :-)