NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, it was bound to happen. When FEMA began handing out $2,000.00 debit cards to people who had never had more than a couple of bucks at once in their entire lives, they were just asking for abuse. There are a number of stories going around about refugees spending $800 at a time on Louis Vitton luggage, etc.

Is anyone at fault here? If so, who? The refugees, who have no experience at managing money? FEMA, who have no experiece at being poor? Who and why??

Who? How about..... individual responsibility.

Why? Lack of a moral code in our society.

I don't doubt that it has happened, but I would like to see some of these stories and get some sense of just how widespread the phenomenon is. My guess is that it's very slight and that it's being blown way out of proportion, as is usually the case with these types of stories.

They remind me in tone of Reagan's Cadillac driving welfare queen stories, which were complete bullshit, but no one ever seemed to call him on it.

Again, I'm not doubting that it's happening, but I'd like some evidence that it's widepsread and not just a couple of isolated cases.

It is sad that some people would do that, but I'm sure most people are not abusing the system and are using the money to by essentials. Giving them the debit card and letting them get what they need or want is probably a lot better system than handouts.

Let's face it, no system is perfect. Even the Food Stamp program is abused with some people trading food stamps for cigarettes, alcohol and even drugs. Some people sell food stamps for 50 cents on the dollar to get cash to buy stuff. However, I'm sure most people don't abuse the program.

I'd like some evidence that it's widepsread and not just a couple of isolated cases.
As would I.

Well, it was bound to happen. When FEMA began handing out $2,000.00 debit cards to people who had never had more than a couple of bucks at once in their entire lives, they were just asking for abuse. There are a number of stories going around about refugees spending $800 at a time on Louis Vitton luggage, etc.

Is anyone at fault here? If so, who? The refugees, who have no experience at managing money? FEMA, who have no experiece at being poor? Who and why??
There are rumors of flying saucers too do you believe all your rumors ?
And who cares what people spend their friggin money on ? Are you the Big macaroni and cheese ? Or maybe you want to adopt them and be a sugar daddy . If people but LV luggage how do you know they are not just relacing what they lost . ALL the displaced people in Texas qualified for the cards ...did it say any place in the rules WHAT YOU COULD PURCHASE ?
Get a friggin life .

As would I.
Well, you started the thread. Where did you hear or read the stories?

I would like to know where on earth the refugees found a louis vuitton store outside of New Orleans?

Is anyone at fault here? If so, who? The refugees, who have no experience at managing money? FEMA, who have no experiece at being poor? Who and why??
A little from column a, a little from column b.

Here's the thing EVEN IF the storys are 100 % true and a FEW people did do stupid things with the MONEY THAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM . How does that reflect at all on the ENTIRE PROGRAM ? And since when do you judge poor people as mentally incompetant to know what to do with money ? The whole premise is objectional and make the poster look as if they are a first generation redneck bigot asshole with a class problem .
Think about it for just one second.
Assumption...never had a buck in their lives .
Assumption ....a true rumor.( LOL )
Assumption.....The refugees, who have no experience at managing money
Assumption......FEMA has no experiance at being poor... (You are speaking for just how many federal employees and their familys ?)
Assumption.....there are alot of storys going around.. (ummm where ? what storys ? ) .

I would like to know where on earth the refugees found a louis vuitton store outside of New Orleans?
Pretty much in any upscale mall.

Pretty much in any upscale mall.

In the bible belt? :rolleyes:

In the bible belt? :rolleyes:
There are plenty of upscale malls in the Bible Belt. Hell, St. Louis and Kansas City are in the buickle of the Bible Belt and yet they're cosmopolitan cities, complete with art galleries, symphonies, and gasp! upscale malls. Get past your preconceptions.

They couldn't have given them a packet of gift certificates to supermarkets and hardware stores? That would have stopped the idiocy. Maybe I should be at the head of FEMA... hmm... :)

Oh well. This is just hearsay anyway. It sounds bad, but that could just be one or two cases, in fact it probably is.

It's funny I was thinking what a bad I dea it would be to hand out $2,000 debit cards, whether this story is true or not. $2,000 is not much money and though it's nice to do it's a horrible waste.

What do they expect these people to do with that money? At the very least they could have offered them guidance. A plan on how to go about rebuilding their lives. Give them hope that you are doing everything you can for them.

I think they are much better served if they are given a place to stay and some food, helped to find a job for adults and a school for any kids they may have. honestly I think they should have a program where all those poor displaced people are give a job in the recontruction effort. Train them if necessary. Start them off in a tent city while they build/restore their new homes, schools and businesses.

my 2 centavos

There are plenty of upscale malls in the Bible Belt. Hell, St. Louis and Kansas City are in the buickle of the Bible Belt and yet they're cosmopolitan cities, complete with art galleries, symphonies, and gasp! upscale malls. Get past your preconceptions.
I agree. As someone who lives in the "Bible Belt", as a matter of fact in Kansas City, I can tell you've obviously never allowed yourself to even CONSIDER that we're not all raging religious nuts. In the cities, most everybody is normal. Shit, we got the first Tiffany's when they went chain, we're rated for one of the absolute best non-mall shopping districts in this region of the country (including Chicago), and there are at least seventeen ways I can think of that I'd be able to blow $2000 in any one store just in the smaller mall I work in. Not even buying large amounts of stuff, really.

So how about we be a bit less judgmental and you'll sound like less of an idiot, as well as far less offensive.

In the bible belt? :rolleyes:
And southernors are supposed to be the ones who are close-minded and provincial.

One reason that things like louis vuitton bags, which used to be rather classy are now considered enormously tacky and declasse is that brands like LV diluted themselves heavily by spreading to any mall where they could conceivably stay in business.

When something stops being exclusive, and starts being available to anyone with a 2,000 USD debit card, it stops carrying any real cache among sophisiticated people.

There are rumors of flying saucers too do you believe all your rumors ?
And who cares what people spend their friggin money on ? Are you the Big macaroni and cheese ? Or maybe you want to adopt them and be a sugar daddy . If people but LV luggage how do you know they are not just relacing what they lost . ALL the displaced people in Texas qualified for the cards ...did it say any place in the rules WHAT YOU COULD PURCHASE ?
Get a friggin life .
You obviously have issues. That's a shame. But it doesn't change the fact that FEMA pulled the cards because the refugees had no idea that the money was for necessities, not luxuries. End of story.

Well, you started the thread. Where did you hear or read the stories?
Uh ... would you believe, on the news?

There are rumors of flying saucers too do you believe all your rumors ?
And who cares what people spend their friggin money on ? Are you the Big macaroni and cheese ? Or maybe you want to adopt them and be a sugar daddy . If people but LV luggage how do you know they are not just relacing what they lost . ALL the displaced people in Texas qualified for the cards ...did it say any place in the rules WHAT YOU COULD PURCHASE ?
Get a friggin life .

Nowhere in Eutrusca's first post did he insult the people purchasing these things, so I don't see what gives you the right to insult him for asking everyone here a question. There was absolutely no reason to attack him for asking questions.

Here's the thing EVEN IF the storys are 100 % true and a FEW people did do stupid things with the MONEY THAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM . How does that reflect at all on the ENTIRE PROGRAM ? And since when do you judge poor people as mentally incompetant to know what to do with money ? The whole premise is objectional and make the poster look as if they are a first generation redneck bigot asshole with a class problem .
Think about it for just one second.
Assumption...never had a buck in their lives .
Assumption ....a true rumor.( LOL )
Assumption.....The refugees, who have no experience at managing money
Assumption......FEMA has no experiance at being poor... (You are speaking for just how many federal employees and their familys ?)
Assumption.....there are alot of storys going around.. (ummm where ? what storys ? ) .
I'm sorry you have issues, I truly am, but please avoid taking them out on me.

It's funny I was thinking what a bad I dea it would be to hand out $2,000 debit cards, whether this story is true or not. $2,000 is not much money and though it's nice to do it's a horrible waste.

What do they expect these people to do with that money? At the very least they could have offered them guidance. A plan on how to go about rebuilding their lives. Give them hope that you are doing everything you can for them.

I think they are much better served if they are given a place to stay and some food, helped to find a job for adults and a school for any kids they may have. honestly I think they should have a program where all those poor displaced people are give a job in the recontruction effort. Train them if necessary. Start them off in a tent city while they build/restore their new homes, schools and businesses.

my 2 centavos
Not bad ideas, actually. :)

I would like to know where on earth the refugees found a louis vuitton store outside of New Orleans?

Depends on how far Katrina could throw a Louis Vuitton store.

Uh ... would you believe, on the news?
I would, but I've also heard and read complete bullshit on the news before, as I'm sure you have. I'm not trying to bait you or anything, Eutrusca--I'm just saying that "on the news" is more than a little vague. If you give me a starting point as to where to look, then maybe we could get somewhere and see if this is widespread or if it's race and class baiting, which, to be perfectly honest, is what it sounds like to me--the stories, I mean, not your post.

I would, but I've also heard and read complete bullshit on the news before, as I'm sure you have. I'm not trying to bait you or anything, Eutrusca--I'm just saying that "on the news" is more than a little vague. If you give me a starting point as to where to look, then maybe we could get somewhere and see if this is widespread or if it's race and class baiting, which, to be perfectly honest, is what it sounds like to me--the stories, I mean, not your post.
Look, I don't have any links for this. It was on the news. I heard it. I posted it here. It was making the rounds as part of the reason why FEMA discontinued the debit cards that were being dispersed to the refugess.

Look, I don't have any links for this. It was on the news. I heard it. I posted it here. It was making the rounds as part of the reason why FEMA discontinued the debit cards that were being dispersed to the refugess.
Okay, fair enough. I'll look around when I have more time. I'm supposed to be grading papers right now. :gundge:

Okay, fair enough. I'll look around when I have more time. I'm supposed to be grading papers right now.
Sigh. Poor lil kids! Tsk! ;)

If I were wearing the same clothes I had on when the storm hit, and hadn't slept in a bed for a week, I think I would use the money for a couple changes of clothes, some toiletries, and a motel room for a week or two until FEMA gets their act together and sets up temporary housing for everyone. If they spent the money on luggage, they probably didnt lose everything, and had a place to go. They just needed something to carry their stuff in.

You can't assume the luggage was a wasteful choice without knowing the details.

If people qualified for emergency cash, they should be able to spend it on what best suits their immediate needs. Trying to oversee that would be a nightmare. So yes, some people might go out and buy a gameboy, but then it's their own dang fault if they have to sleep outdoors.

The first thing I bought with my emergency hurricane money was a metal and canvas garden gazebo. Decorating my garden with hurricane money?? No, giving me and my neighbors some much needed shade from the brutal tropical sun.

So Beer and Guns did have a point about making assumptions.

What ever gave you the idea that if you said something that sounds like so much bullshit that someone wouldn't call it that when you couldn't provide even a simple URL?

Well I finaly found mention in a large news source
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/weather/090905_katrina_debitcards.html

But no mention of all thoes suposed horrid choices the origional poster reported

So right now we have FEMA giving out the debt cards

Thats it as far as I found

HELL with all I have been able to find they have only spent that money on food and shelter

Kind of takes the impact out of the hype of the origional post

They remind me in tone of Reagan's Cadillac driving welfare queen stories, which were complete bullshit, but no one ever seemed to call him on it.

It might've been then, but it's sure as hell true now where I live. I see many people pay for food with stamps and then get into their late-model Cadillacs and BMWs...it happens a lot more than you would think.

It might've been then, but it's sure as hell true now where I live. I see many people pay for food with stamps and then get into their late-model Cadillacs and BMWs...it happens a lot more than you would think.

Hey, maybe they stole those cars. Did you think of that? Huh, Mr. High and Mighty? Maybe you should stop and think a moment before making wild accusations?*

*please please please, I hope people see the humor here.

Or perhaps they had a job, got a nice, really dependable car and then are stuck making payments after they lost their job, had their salary reduced or had some similar mishap happen to them...doctor's bills, death in the family, etc...?

Nowhere in Eutrusca's first post did he insult the people purchasing these things, so I don't see what gives you the right to insult him for asking everyone here a question. There was absolutely no reason to attack him for asking questions.


Pardon the interruption, but the title of the thread indicates he believes those people who made such purchases, are idiots. "refugee idiocy".

So, he was insulting even before his first post.

I'd say it's because the peoplein charge of FEMA have never been poor or lived in a poor neighborhood. Thre's a reason welfare checks come out at the beginning of the month. So they'll pay rent before they blow the rest of the check in the first week. Ever been poor? Lived in a poor neighborhood? I have. I've seen the outcome of handouts. The ebst time to go to a temp service or labor pool is the first week of the month because when the govt. checks come in none of those folks work. Ever go to the grocery store in a poor neighborhood? Witness as mom after mom spends WIC on icecream and foodstamps on junk food. Happens every day.

Theres also something inside me wich says "If someones home, job, and life were washed away in a hurricane, and gets two thousand dollars, and they feel better buying an exspensive handbag..let em."

Its not the smartest thing to do with the money, but any comfort that can be obtained must be better than none.

Pardon the interruption, but the title of the thread indicates he believes those people who made such purchases, are idiots. "refugee idiocy".

So, he was insulting even before his first post.
Oh. So you never overstate things just to grab people's attention. Right. :rolleyes:

Theres also something inside me wich says "If someones home, job, and life were washed away in a hurricane, and gets two thousand dollars, and they feel better buying an exspensive handbag..let em."

Its not the smartest thing to do with the money, but any comfort that can be obtained must be better than none.
Well, at least you're correct about ONE thing: it's definitely NOT the smartest thing to do. Sigh.

Well I finaly found mention in a large news source
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/weather/090905_katrina_debitcards.html

But no mention of all thoes suposed horrid choices the origional poster reported. So right now we have FEMA giving out the debt cards. Thats it as far as I found. HELL with all I have been able to find they have only spent that money on food and shelter. Kind of takes the impact out of the hype of the origional post
What part of "There are a number of stories going around about refugees" do you NOT understand?

Well, at least you're correct about ONE thing: it's definitely NOT the smartest thing to do. Sigh.

Just smile and watch the classified ads for some cheap luggage in the upcoming months. ;)

What part of "There are a number of stories going around about refugees" do you NOT understand?
About as much as you understand about the problems in trying to pass out rumors as reality

About as much as you understand about the problems in trying to pass out rumors as reality
Oh for God's sake, UT. Get over yourself. Jeeze!

Oh for God's sake, UT. Get over yourself. Jeeze!
You as well kind sir

What part of "There are a number of stories going around about refugees" do you NOT understand?

Basically you're just helping spread rumours. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you have issues, I truly am
Eutrusca, I don't care if you're a board-certified Internet Psychologist. Stop using this form of passive-aggressive flaming. You've been warned on it multiple times, and our patience is wearing thin.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

Not bad ideas, actually. :)


Thanks! Now go forth and spread the word! :p

Wow, some folks just don't pay attention to the news at all do they?

First of all, shame on any of you calling these people "refugees" they are Americans in their own country and up until the storm ruined their lives paid taxes like anyone else, they are NOT refugees.

Now that is out of my system,

FEMA never handed out one single debit card. They discarded the idea after the American Red Cross handed out 4000 debit cards to the people only at the Astro Dome and had to lock the gates because people were coming in to get a card who were not actually staying in the shelter.

No, FEMA's rocket science idea is going to be to give people cheques or direct deposit into their bank accounts. Which of course makes little sense for those without, you know, bank accounts or I.D.

As for what people did with the debit cards The American Red Cross handed out, I haven't a clue and it's really none of our business in my opinion.

Wow, some folks just don't pay attention to the news at all do they?

First of all, shame on any of you calling these people "refugees" they are Americans in their own country and up until the storm ruined their lives paid taxes like anyone else, they are NOT refugees.

Now that is out of my system,

FEMA never handed out one single debit card. They discarded the idea after the American Red Cross handed out 4000 debit cards to the people only at the Astro Dome and had to lock the gates because people were coming in to get a card who were not actually staying in the shelter.

No, FEMA's rocket science idea is going to be to give people cheques or direct deposit into their bank accounts. Which of course makes little sense for those without, you know, bank accounts or I.D.

As for what people did with the debit cards The American Red Cross handed out, I haven't a clue and it's really none of our business in my opinion.


Yeah I even posted a link and I forgot to mention that it was the RED CROSS not FEMA that did the cards

AS SUCH the title of the thread is completely wrong as it is not the tax payer that got the bill if the roomers are true but the people who donated to the red cross

Knew this was going to happen. I was just waiting for it to happen.

First of all, shame on any of you calling these people "refugees" they are Americans in their own country and up until the storm ruined their lives paid taxes like anyone else, they are NOT refugees.

Shame on you for attaching a negative connotation to the word refugee, which basically means "one who flees." Because of the devastation in their homes, these people have had to leave those areas and go to others - thus, they are refugees. it has nothing to do with nationality or taxes.

As for what people did with the debit cards The American Red Cross handed out, I haven't a clue and it's really none of our business in my opinion.

I think it is our business to a point - at least those who have given money to the Red Cross, because they gave that money. When you give someone support to try and help them with the essentials, and they buy a bunch of non-essentials - possibly leaving them without enough for the essentials yet again - I do think you have a right to know that, so you can choose not to help that person again.


Meanwhile, I did hear about this story on the radio today. At the moment, it all comes from a quote from a single sales associate at a LV store in Atlanta who said that two people have come in and used the cards for handbags that cost ~$800 and one came in and asked if she could use it, but didn't buy anything. According to the associate, the cards say on them, "not for use for alcohol, tobacco, or firearms," so there is nothing legally barring them from accepting the cards.

Of course, we still don't have anything other than a quote from a sales associate, so it may or may not have happened that way.

oh it was red cross? I had thought that it was fema too - nevertheless I do feel that it was a waste of $8,000,000.

Sure I bet it was nice for the 4000 people that received them. I don't doubt that some of them did put it to good use. I do however feel that my initial post on the first page of this thread still stands that it was wasteful and a lot more good could have come out of that money, and that there would be a better way to go about helping all these people.

Zep and I gave $5000 (USD) to the American Red Cross (which is not tax deductible in Canada) and if we don't care, you shouldn't either. We gave the money, how they use it is up to them. Those poor people have been through enough I think.

Yeah I even posted a link and I forgot to mention that it was the RED CROSS not FEMA that did the cards

AS SUCH the title of the thread is completely wrong as it is not the tax payer that got the bill if the roomers are true but the people who donated to the red cross
Kewl. Better the non-governmental organization than the governmental one. :)

Shame on you for attaching a negative connotation to the word refugee, which basically means "one who flees." Because of the devastation in their homes, these people have had to leave those areas and go to others - thus, they are refugees. it has nothing to do with nationality or taxes.
I knew there was some reason I liked you! :D

Zep and I gave $5000 (USD) to the American Red Cross (which is not tax deductible in Canada) and if we don't care, you shouldn't either. We gave the money, how they use it is up to them. Those poor people have been through enough I think.

wow you are so awesome for giving so much. *applause* you guys rock.

My personal hero right now (when it comes to the current Katrina mess) is this guy I know who has no money and can barely make it on his own, signed up to be a red cross relief worker. They are sending him off for like a month or soemthing like that. There's a lot more to the story but basically he is putting everyone before himself. I can't say that I am so selfless.

Zep and I gave $5000 (USD) to the American Red Cross (which is not tax deductible in Canada) and if we don't care, you shouldn't either. We gave the money, how they use it is up to them. Those poor people have been through enough I think.

These people have been through quite a bit, and many people are trying to help them out. Of course, they have to put in a bit of effort on their own part to get through it as well. Going to buy a LV handbag (if this did indeed happen) is no different from a guy on the street asking you for money for food and then running to the drug dealer and buying drugs instead.

I'll help someone buy food, shelter, clothing, etc. I will not help someone buy drugs, alcohol, or designer handbags - and I have the right to care what the money I give is being used for - and to make the choice not to give if it is being used for these things.

I knew there was some reason I liked you! :D

I actually like him too, I usually also agree with most of what he says, but this time I don't agree.

Main Entry: ref·u·gee
Pronunciation: "re-fyu-'jE, 're-fyu-"
Function: noun
Etymology: French réfugié, past participle of (se) réfugier to take refuge, from Latin refugium
: one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution

I actually like him too, I usually also agree with most of what he says, but this time I don't agree.

(her)

Note that your definition says, "especially", not "all the time". It is most often used to discuss people fleeing to a foreign country or power (not that this has any kind of tax connotation as you implied above). Interestingly enough, most of these people are fleeing to a foreign power, under the strictest definitions of the words - as they are fleeing to other states, with their own governments.

However, even if you don't see a state as a governmental power, it is still perfectly correct to use it in this context. This is not the most common usage, but is not incorrect either. One way or another, there is certainly no reason for shame implied.

(her)

Sorry about that!

-------------------------------

I just know I wouldn't like to be called a refugee in my own country. Perhaps it's all they got left is their pride. Just seems wrong to me.

Well, it was bound to happen. When FEMA began handing out $2,000.00 debit cards to people who had never had more than a couple of bucks at once in their entire lives, they were just asking for abuse. There are a number of stories going around about refugees spending $800 at a time on Louis Vitton luggage, etc.

Is anyone at fault here? If so, who? The refugees, who have no experience at managing money? FEMA, who have no experiece at being poor? Who and why??

I'd just like to welcome these refugees to our town. They are welcome to stay until their card runs out.

:)

one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution
This definition proves that indeed the people who have fled New Orleans, are refugees.
Many refugees paid their taxes prior to the catastrophe/incident that caused them to seek refuge.
No one objected to calling people in Yugoslavia refugees when they fled from one area in the country to another.
The only objections I have heard to the use of the word refugee in this circumstance are on the basis that the term is somehow insulting, and all the arguments tend to be inconsistent with prior and common usage.

I honestly believe it says more about the negative attitudes of the person arguing against it's use, than it does about the person using the word.

This definition proves that indeed the people who have fled New Orleans, are refugees.
Many refugees paid their taxes prior to the catastrophe/incident that caused them to seek refuge.
No one objected to calling people in Yugoslavia refugees when they fled from one area in the country to another.
The only objections I have heard to the use of the word refugee in this circumstance are on the basis that the term is somehow insulting, and all the arguments tend to be inconsistent with prior and common usage.

I honestly believe it says more about the negative attitudes of the person arguing against it's use, than it does about the person using the word.
I honestly believe that you are correct. :)

A refugee is a person who takes refuge. They are refugees. Anyone who doesn't want me to call them that needs to read Amendment 1 to the U.S. Constitution.

Refugee
Refugee
Refugee

So there!

His only response to a sensible rebuke of his post is to accuse the person who has pointed out his errors as one who has " issues " . I have already accepted that he has surrendered to a superior argument by his lack of a reasoned response , in both his origional post and his rebuttals . Based on his lack of a reasoned argument I just choose to withdraw from further discussion on the basis that I refuse to have a battle of wit with an unarmed opponent .

His only response to a sensible rebuke of his post is to accuse the person who has pointed out his errors as one who has " issues " . I have already accepted that he has surrendered to a superior argument by his lack of a reasoned response , in both his origional post and his rebuttals . Based on his lack of a reasoned argument I just choose to withdraw from further discussion on the basis that I refuse to have a battle of wit with an unarmed opponent .
Nice flame-baiting attempt but sorry, no cigar for you, sugar-puss! :D

His only response to a sensible rebuke of his post is to accuse the person who has pointed out his errors as one who has " issues " . I have already accepted that he has surrendered to a superior argument by his lack of a reasoned response , in both his origional post and his rebuttals . Based on his lack of a reasoned argument I just choose to withdraw from further discussion on the basis that I refuse to have a battle of wit with an unarmed opponent .

Nice flame-baiting attempt but sorry, no cigar for you, sugar-puss


I've noticed that both of you have been going at it in multiple threads, and I'm telling you know that you both need to knock it off. Either you two don't respond to each other, you both put each other on ignore, or continue to respond to each other, and get some nice official warnings. It's your choice really.

Beer and Guns: If you don't like arguing with him, then don't. There's no need to insult him repeatedly over multiple threads. You can quit it, now.