NationStates Jolt Archive

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

Probably not. But that is just me.....

very very unlikely

I wouldn't. Love is a fickle matter that any half-trained mind can easily override and obliterate. But, as the previous poster typed, that's just me.

Problem is...she's not really a "her". Most guys would consider anyone who is genetically XY to always be a male, no matter what. It's very unlikely that a straight man would knowingly start a relationship with a transsexual. Compound that with social stigmas, and for many men the desire to have children someday, and I can imagine the difficulties a transsexual person would have in trying to find a partner.

No operation can change your genetics, unfortunately.

Depends on when I found out...

My reaction would depend a lot on how much I trust her. Whether she was upfront and honest or not. If that's what you think you need to do to be who you are, then I don't give a damn. But if she lied to me about it, I'd be pretty pissed, just like if she lied to me about anything else.

If I loved "him/her" yes.
The problem is, I wonder never love someone like that. Ever.

Your question needs re-wording. Currently, its like this:

"Would you eat crap if you enjoyed doing so?"

My reaction would depend a lot on how much I trust her. Whether she was upfront and honest or not. If that's what you think you need to do to be who you are, then I don't give a damn. But if she lied to me about it, I'd be pretty pissed, just like if she lied to me about anything else.


should she tell you on the first date? at what point would you consider not disclosing information as lying? And I think you are very sweet for being open minded. Thanks.

No, besides I'm follower of Christ so I only date Christian women.

Here I was thinking straight men will have sex with anything that has a hole in it.

I'm not sure, it's possible in theory, but I'm not sure what would happen in reality.

should she tell you on the first date? at what point would you consider not disclosing information as lying? And I think you are very sweet for being open minded. Thanks.


At any point before the first sexual encounter, disclosing it would be fine. Even immediately prior to the first sexual encounter. After that would not be acceptable.

Don't think I'm sweet just yet. I'm an asshole, I just don't care what you do with your own body.

Here I was thinking straight men will have sex with anything that has a hole in it.

having sex with someone and being in a relationship with someone is different.

no.

At any point before the first sexual encounter, disclosing it would be fine. Even immediately prior to the first sexual encounter. After that would not be acceptable.

Don't think I'm sweet just yet. I'm an asshole, I just don't care what you do with your own body.

Thats reasonable. LoL at the asshole comment.
I think if 8 percent of the straight men would date a post operative transsexual, thats pretty good already.

Being who I am, no. But I do agree with the fact of honesty being the best possibility.

I wouldn't enter into a relationship with a drag queen and I have trouble drawing a distinction between a transexual and a drag queen. The difference seems to be the transexual simply has a better disguise.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

Of course ... what a stupid question. So she was born with the wrong plumbing ... big deal. Fortunately we live in a time where medical science can correct nature's mistakes.

Don't let the jackasses say otherwise ... this isn't a woman who "used to be" a man. She was never a man. She may have happened to have a penis, but having a penis does not a man make.

If I love this woman, then I love her for who she is, not for who she was.

But, then again, most of the people who are saying "Hell No" are the same people who would divorce their wives if they found out she fucked a black man in college.

Of course ... what a stupid question. So she was born with the wrong plumbing ... big deal. Fortunately we live in a time where medical science can correct nature's mistakes.

Don't let the jackasses say otherwise ... this isn't a woman who "used to be" a man. She was never a man. She may have happened to have a penis, but having a penis does not a man make.

If I love this woman, then I love her for who she is, not for who she was.

But, then again, most of the people who are saying "Hell No" are the same people who would divorce their wives if they found out she fucked a black man in college.
What about a pre-op? According to your logic he isn't a man.

no.

What about a pre-op? According to your logic he isn't a man.

I have dated a pre-op. It was a nice relationship and she and I had a lot of fun. We had a lot of things in common and talked well together. She also made me laugh with her very Jewish sense of humor.

She's now post-op and still a dear friend.

The closed mindedness of some people drives me bat-shit.

hm. as i'm married now and have trouble with the idea of a relationship where you "truly love her" not trending in the marriage direction in my mind...
i want to have kids.
so no.
but hey dude, if you're thinking about the operation and have spent the 4 years living as a woman, go with it. you only live once.

Of course ... what a stupid question. So she was born with the wrong plumbing ... big deal. Fortunately we live in a time where medical science can correct nature's mistakes.

Don't let the jackasses say otherwise ... this isn't a woman who "used to be" a man. She was never a man. She may have happened to have a penis, but having a penis does not a man make.

If I love this woman, then I love her for who she is, not for who she was.

But, then again, most of the people who are saying "Hell No" are the same people who would divorce their wives if they found out she fucked a black man in college.


I appreciate your open mindness, but you dont have to be so harsh. People have different perferences and I do agree some people are being rude about it, but not all.

so no.
but hey dude, if you're thinking about the operation and have spent the 4 .

thanks, dude. :rolleyes:

i want to have kids.
so no.

Nod ... and that's the real issue. Transexuals cannot have biological children. There is, however, surrogacy and - if you truly love the person - that should be no big deal.

I appreciate your open mindness, but you dont have to be so harsh. People have different perferences and I do agree some people are being rude about it, but not all.

It's a touchy subject with me .. sorry if I seem harsh. :)

I agree with the preference thing. I have an affinity to redheads, myself, but I don't express disgust with brunettes because of it. I mean ... come on. It's annoying. :mad:

Its okay but It doesnt bother me. As someone who might want to have a sex change, I have heard everything. From butchering my own body to a freak..., I dont really give a shit. Its about how i feel and my happiness but i think the social situation is somewhat important too. If theres absolutely zero chances of me finding a guy, than its quite pointless to become a transsexual no? But alas, I am sure the chance of finding a guy as a transsexual or as a feminine gay boy is about the same. lol.

I have dated a pre-op. It was a nice relationship and she and I had a lot of fun. We had a lot of things in common and talked well together. She also made me laugh with her very Jewish sense of humor.

She's now post-op and still a dear friend.

The closed mindedness of some people drives me bat-shit.
We have sexual preference, yes even you, unless you'd have a relationship with absolutely anyone. What makes my preference closed-mindedness and yours enlightened? It seems to be becoming more clear that we have no chioce in the matter, right?

We have sexual preference, yes even you, unless you'd have a relationship with absolutely anyone. What makes my preference closed-mindedness and yours enlightened? It seems to be becoming more clear that we have no chioce in the matter, right?


hes attacking people who are being rude about it.

We have sexual preference, yes even you, unless you'd have a relationship with absolutely anyone. What makes my preference closed-mindedness and yours enlightened? It seems to be becoming more clear that we have no chioce in the matter, right?

It has nothing to do with closed-minded vs. enlightened. You just have to understand how biology works. It may have a dick, but that doesn't make it a man.

I am married to a woman, who was born a woman, and we have children together. However, my attraction to women is not about boobies. It's about the essense of being a woman. Sometimes, nature fucks up and has women born into men's bodies.

Anyone who's studied basic human biology knows that all humans are inherently female. The only reason men exist is because a certain hormone happens at a certain time in the development of the fetus that causes us to be male. All men were "once women", so why is it such a big deal when a woman was "once a man"?

So ... it is conceivable that the hormone fucked up for one reason or another and a wonderful woman happens to be born with the wrong plumbing or vice versa. Look at the person, not their sex.

hes attacking people who are being rude about it.

Nod ... and that's just it. It's the rudeness I can't abide. It's the number of times I've seen (oh, to clarify, I am strongly tied as a councilor and advocate of the GLBT community) men who find out their woman used to have a penis and beat them up for it or the marriages I've seen broken up in very nasty ways because one of the participants simply can't hide in the closet anymore.

I've seen good, hard working, decent men (who happen to be gay) stripped away from their sons in Texas because some idiot woman doesn't want their sons "raised by a fag".

It's the rudeness ... you're right.

well it doesnt have to be a fuck up, if people are willing to accept that there are more than 2 genders, than maybe we dont need a sex change. I dont know what i am going to do sometimes. *cries*

Edited: Good for you! We are thankful to have men like you.

well it doesnt have to be a fuck up, if people are willing to accept that there are more than 2 genders, than maybe we dont need a sex change.

I'm right there with ya, AD. Unfortunately, we have 5,000 years of stereotypes to get rid of and that's no easy task.

We still live in an age where people believe that "penis == boy".

*sigh*

Of course ... what a stupid question. So she was born with the wrong plumbing ... big deal. Fortunately we live in a time where medical science can correct nature's mistakes.
Nature made a mistake? Since when is nature wrong? Isn't only people who fuck up nature?

Don't let the jackasses say otherwise ... this isn't a woman who "used to be" a man. She was never a man. She may have happened to have a penis, but having a penis does not a man make.
from a psychological standpoint, yeah, I agree. From a biological/physical standpoint, you couldn't be more wrong.

If I love this woman, then I love her for who she is, not for who she was.
Good. I would hope everyone felt this way.

But, then again, most of the people who are saying "Hell No" are the same people who would divorce their wives if they found out she fucked a black man in college.
What an incredibly prejudiced, judgmental, bullshit claim. On what do you base this assumption? Your own arrogance and self-righteous feelings of superiority? So you'd date/fuck/marry a post op transexual? What gives you the right to attack those who wouldn't? I dare you, back this allegation up with some cold, hard facts. I doubt you can - I stand ready to eat crow.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

No... I'm far too shallow for it ;)

I'm right there with ya, AD. Unfortunately, we have 5,000 years of stereotypes to get rid of and that's no easy task.

We still live in an age where people believe that "penis == boy".

*sigh*


we have made alot of improvment in the past 50 years though.

I think you should just ignore the negative responses, it gives me such a headache and I dont think its worth it. But I love ya *hugs*

On what do you base this assumption? Your own arrogance

Yes ... and if you haven't figure that out in nearly 9,500 posts .... :D

Look up "arrogance" in the dictionary ... you'll see my picture there.

Your own arrogance and self-righteous feelings of superiority? So you'd date/fuck/marry a post op transexual? What gives you the right to attack those who wouldn't? I dare you, back this allegation up with some cold, hard facts. I doubt you can - I stand ready to eat crow.


Made love, not fuck.

and yes nature does make mistakes, hence people who are born deaf, blind whatever.

Anyone who's studied basic human biology knows that all humans are inherently female. The only reason men exist is because a certain hormone happens at a certain time in the development of the fetus that causes us to be male. All men were "once women", so why is it such a big deal when a woman was "once a man"?

So ... it is conceivable that the hormone fucked up for one reason or another and a wonderful woman happens to be born with the wrong plumbing or vice versa. Look at the person, not their sex.

Not only is it concievable it happens, the statistic I heard was that about one in 400 women have XY chromosomes, and there's men who have XX chromosomes... you could argue that they're not actually men / women but it would be ridiculous as the only way even they would find out is if someone put their genetic material under a microscope... (olympic atheletes for example are gender tested in this way... or they were, not sure if they still are). Genetics is not all it's cracked up to be.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

Given that I really love her I'd certainly consider it. The having children thing might be an issue though. Surrogate mothers and adoptions are definite options, but both are a big hassle and may be more than I would be able to afford financially.

Of course ... what a stupid question. So she was born with the wrong plumbing ... big deal. Fortunately we live in a time where medical science can correct nature's mistakes.

Don't let the jackasses say otherwise ... this isn't a woman who "used to be" a man. She was never a man. She may have happened to have a penis, but having a penis does not a man make.

If I love this woman, then I love her for who she is, not for who she was.

But, then again, most of the people who are saying "Hell No" are the same people who would divorce their wives if they found out she fucked a black man in college. Only you could insult EVERYONE who agrees with you, and call them all racists at the same time. You have serious fucking mental problems.

Not only is it concievable it happens, the statistic I heard was that about one in 400 women have XY chromosomes, and there's men who have XX chromosomes... .

really?

Only you could insult EVERYONE who agrees with you, and call them all racists at the same time. You have serious fucking mental problems.

A wise man once said...

Yes ... and if you haven't figure that out in nearly 9,500 posts .... :D

With all apologies to our former Army Ranger impersonator. ;)

Yes ... and if you haven't figure that out in nearly 9,500 posts .... :D

Look up "arrogance" in the dictionary ... you'll see my picture there.

Funny? yes. Dodging the question? most assuredly. Expected? without a doubt. Typical? well of course. Thinking number of posts=intelligence? yeah, what's new?

With all apologies to our former Army Ranger impersonator. ;)

Oh come on ... that was a one time goof. :p Let it go ... I have!

really?

Absolutely. There are people who have more than two sex genes, too. Three or even more. XXY, XXXX, etc.

Nature fucks up all the time.

Personally, I just wish everyone would sit down and shut the hell up. It's of absolutely no consequence to anyone aside from the person.

i could never bring myself to do such a disgusting thing. i'm not closed minded but come on. that's digusting. i think that any christian would agree. if god wanted you to be a girl then he would have made you a girl and vice versa. i mean, i don't know if you realize this or not, but if you are a straight guy and you say "oh, i'm not closed minded. i think i could sleep with a transexual" then you are gay. and yes i have a problem with the morals of gay people. so really, if this thread were only for straight guys then every answer would be no. i don't expect that anyone cares about my opinion (or the facts as i know them) but i needed to vent.

i could never bring myself to do such a disgusting thing. i'm not closed minded but come on. that's digusting. i think that any christian would agree. if god wanted you to be a girl then he would have made you a girl and vice versa. i mean, i don't know if you realize this or not, but if you are a straight guy and you say "oh, i'm not closed minded. i think i could sleep with a transexual" then you are gay. and yes i have a problem with the morals of gay people. so really, if this thread were only for straight guys then every answer would be no. i don't expect that anyone cares about my opinion (or the facts as i know them) but i needed to vent.

So Jesus only wants you to love thy neighbor when you like thy neighbor? Hate the sin, not the sinner. Judgement is mine, sayeth the Lord. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

I'm homosexual, am I, just because I don't give a damn if someone wants to change their sex? I'm glad to get that out of the way. I'll need to tell my girlfriend, though.

Flame on!

Funny? yes. Dodging the question? most assuredly. Expected? without a doubt. Typical? well of course. Thinking number of posts=intelligence? yeah, what's new?

You missed the point.

I didn't dodge the question. You asked my basis, and I gave it. I find people who fix on a singular aspect of a person as the basis for their "truth" to be sad and alarming. It's like those men who look at a perfectly wonderful woman and won't talk to her because her tits aren't big enough.

You asked what gives me the right to attack those who wouldn't and my anser is that "those who wouldn't" are foolish and misguided. We had a poster recently who was damning all of creation because he prayed for a woman and got a "tranny" .. even though he got what he prayed for, it wasn't good enough.

That's where my arrogance comes from. I've never dodged a question in my life.

i could never bring myself to do such a disgusting thing. i'm not closed minded but come on. that's digusting. i think that any christian would agree. if god wanted you to be a girl then he would have made you a girl and vice versa. i mean, i don't know if you realize this or not, but if you are a straight guy and you say "oh, i'm not closed minded. i think i could sleep with a transexual" then you are gay. and yes i have a problem with the morals of gay people. so really, if this thread were only for straight guys then every answer would be no. i don't expect that anyone cares about my opinion (or the facts as i know them) but i needed to vent.

I hope you feel better now that you've vented and insulted folks like me who are Christian and very straight. :)

Do you know what love is? Christ made it pretty clear that love means doing things you wouldn't necessarily prefer to do for the sake of the one(s) you love. Being a Christian, and keeping in mind the stipulation about love in the first post, I would think you might be a bit more open-minded yourself.

Keruvalia,
But the question was about relationships and ,by implication, sexual preference, in my view. These things are not scientific things, they can't be quantified. I don't see how your judgement of those who wouldn't consider a relatonship with a transexual closedminded and those who judge homosexuals and bisexuals (incert whichever negative statement you choose) are different, other than being called closedminded may not be as offensive as some of the things said about homosexuals.

i think that any christian would agree.

And, yet, as a Christian, you worship someone with only a human mother, and thus, only an X chromosome .... so Jesus was a woman?

No Y chromosome there.

That is ... unless you want to assign God as having human chromosomes ....

Take your pick ... I'll wait ... Jesus was a woman or God is a man ... knock yourself out on the blasphemy card you wish to play.

And, yet, as a Christian, you worship someone with only a human mother, and thus, only an X chromosome .... so Jesus was a woman?

No Y chromosome there.

That is ... unless you want to assign God as having human chromosomes ....

Take your pick ... I'll wait ... Jesus was a woman or God is a man ... knock yourself out on the blasphemy card you wish to play.

As much as I appreciate the cleverness there, it's a bifurcation fallacy. If we assume the existence of the Christian God (who happens to be omnipotent) then we can certainly presume that when Mary was "impregnated" by the Holy Spirit it's possible that the XY chromosomes were put in place.

So Jesus only wants you to love thy neighbor when you like thy neighbor? Hate the sin, not the sinner. Judgement is mine, sayeth the Lord. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

I'm homosexual, am I, just because I don't give a damn if someone wants to change their sex? I'm glad to get that out of the way. I'll need to tell my girlfriend, though.

Flame on!

i didn't say that i wouldn't love them. you're jumping to conclusions. i said i could never have sex with them. i love everyone no matter what. that doesn't mean i have to fuck them.

And, yet, as a Christian, you worship someone with only a human mother, and thus, only an X chromosome .... so Jesus was a woman?

No Y chromosome there.

That is ... unless you want to assign God as having human chromosomes ....

Take your pick ... I'll wait ... Jesus was a woman or God is a man ... knock yourself out on the blasphemy card you wish to play.

i never assigned a sex to god. i never said jesus was a woman. i said that i would never have sex with a transexual. by the way, that was the most retarded attack on an opinion i have ever heard. :headbang:

As much as I appreciate the cleverness there, it's a bifurcation fallacy. If we assume the existence of the Christian God (who happens to be omnipotent) then we can certainly presume that when Mary was "impregnated" by the Holy Spirit it's possible that the XY chromosomes were put in place.

No no no no no no no NO! :p

We can't assume the Holy Spirit's chromosomes.

Besides .. it wasn't the "holy spirit" who knocked up Mary, it was the angel Semajasa (according to both Kabbalah and the Gospel of Mary Magdeline) .... so we're dealing with a Nephilim (the ones wiped out in the flood).

God clearly hates Nephilim.

Ok never mind ... this whole argument breaks down on the basis of "faith in Jesus" .... so I'm ending my part in it now.

by the way, that was the most retarded attack on an opinion i have ever heard. :headbang:

Just wait till you've been on this forum for a few weeks. Trust me, you'll see a lot more retarded stuff than that. :D

i didn't say that i wouldn't love them. you're jumping to conclusions. i said i could never have sex with them. i love everyone no matter what. that doesn't mean i have to fuck them.

Issuing blanket statements that people are disgusting and those who don't agree with you are homosexual sounds a lot like love to me. You "have a problem with the morals of gay people". If I'm gay because I wouldn't hold it against someone for undergoing sex change, you disagree with my morals. While there's plenty amidst my morals to disagree with, you don't know what they are.

It irritates me when people make assumptions like this, jump up and down on something that's really not any of their business to begin with. If you're a Christian you should believe that whomever sins will answer to God in His own time.

i said that i would never have sex with a transexual.

What's funny to me is that you may already have and don't realise it.

You missed the point.

I didn't dodge the question. You asked my basis, and I gave it. I find people who fix on a singular aspect of a person as the basis for their "truth" to be sad and alarming. It's like those men who look at a perfectly wonderful woman and won't talk to her because her tits aren't big enough.

You asked what gives me the right to attack those who wouldn't and my anser is that "those who wouldn't" are foolish and misguided. We had a poster recently who was damning all of creation because he prayed for a woman and got a "tranny" .. even though he got what he prayed for, it wasn't good enough.

That's where my arrogance comes from. I've never dodged a question in my life.

Sure you have, just now. I understand your point and tend to agree with it, but you have provided no proof of your allegation that people who say "hell no" are people who would divorce their wives if they found out she fucked a black man in college. You made that claim explicitly, now either back it up or admit you have no proof. Not only that, but you have judged people in the way you say you don't - you find people who judge others based on a singular aspect of the other's being as "sad and alarming" yet you, yourself, have judged people who said "hell no" as being "sad and alarming." You, who hope that people don't judge based on a singular aspect, have judged people based on a singular aspect - because they won't accept post op. transgenders, they also won't accept their wife having had sex with a black man - do you not see the illogical position you have taken

No no no no no no no NO! :p

We can't assume the Holy Spirit's chromosomes.

Besides .. it wasn't the "holy spirit" who knocked up Mary, it was the angel Semajasa (according to both Kabbalah and the Gospel of Mary Magdeline) .... so we're dealing with a Nephilim (the ones wiped out in the flood).

God clearly hates Nephilim.

Ok never mind ... this whole argument breaks down on the basis of "faith in Jesus" .... so I'm ending my part in it now.

Don't forget the fact that even as a somewhat liberal Christian I wouldn't put much stock in Kabbalah or the Gospel of Mary Magdeline...

love knows no gender.

Don't forget the fact that even as a somewhat liberal Christian I wouldn't put much stock in Kabbalah or the Gospel of Mary Magdeline...

Why not? Mary Magdeline was the first apostle of Jesus. How could you not put faith in her testimony?

He spoke to her, and preached to her, and washed her feet long before he set out among the fishermen.

I hope you feel better now that you've vented and insulted folks like me who are Christian and very straight. :)

Do you know what love is? Christ made it pretty clear that love means doing things you wouldn't necessarily prefer to do for the sake of the one(s) you love. Being a Christian, and keeping in mind the stipulation about love in the first post, I would think you might be a bit more open-minded yourself.

i know he did. he also made it clear that we should not sin and that we should strive to be as christ was. a non sinning human. this has nothing to do with open minded (though that seems to be the only arguement that people of the opposite opinion can conjure up) it's about morality. morally i cannot bring myself to have sex with a transexual. physically i cannot bring my self to be attracted to a transexual. and yes, i do feel better now that i have vented. and if i have inadvertantly insulted 'folks like you' then so be it. i'm sure my opinion matters so much that you won't be able to sleep until you've proven me wrong. good luck. :sniper:

i'd also like to know where sex was mentioned in the original post.

i know he did. he also made it clear that we should not sin and that we should strive to be as christ was. a non sinning human. this has nothing to do with open minded (though that seems to be the only arguement that people of the opposite opinion can conjure up) it's about morality. morally i cannot bring myself to have sex with a transexual. physically i cannot bring my self to be attracted to a transexual. and yes, i do feel better now that i have vented. and if i have inadvertantly insulted 'folks like you' then so be it. i'm sure my opinion matters so much that you won't be able to sleep until you've proven me wrong. good luck. :sniper:

Heh. I don't need to prove you wrong. I just didn't appreciate being insulted just because I happen to have a slightly different understanding of what God sees as morality.

Why not? Mary Magdeline was the first apostle of Jesus. How could you not put faith in her testimony?

He spoke to her, and preached to her, and washed her feet long before he set out among the fishermen.

If you want to discuss the validity of the current Canon you can start a new thread. I think we'll be hijacking the topic if we proceed further with this.

Nope.

What??? NO, never.

If you want to discuss the validity of the current Canon you can start a new thread. I think we'll be hijacking the topic if we proceed further with this.

Good point .... n/m.

I would. The former body of my beloved wouldn't change the way I feel about her now...

Issuing blanket statements that people are disgusting and those who don't agree with you are homosexual sounds a lot like love to me. You "have a problem with the morals of gay people". If I'm gay because I wouldn't hold it against someone for undergoing sex change, you disagree with my morals. While there's plenty amidst my morals to disagree with, you don't know what they are.

It irritates me when people make assumptions like this, jump up and down on something that's really not any of their business to begin with. If you're a Christian you should believe that whomever sins will answer to God in His own time.

1. if someone who was born a man has sex with someone who was born a man then they are gay. 2. i disagree with the morals of gay people. does that make them bad people? no. is it still a sin? yes. does god forgive all who ask for forgiveness? yes. i don't hate gay people. i disagree with their morals. come on, this isn't too hard to figure out. 3. i made no assumptions. i stated my view on the subject. 4. if this weren't my business then it wouldn't be yours. however, since this is a thread i believe that it is anyone's business that happens to stumble upon it.

now, i don't know if i've made myself clear, so let me dumb it down for those still left playing offense in the dark.

1. i don't hate gays. 2. i'm not judging anyone. 3. i wouldn't have sex with a transexual. 4. i stated my opinion. it has nothing to do with your opinion.

now let me get back to eating my cereal! :headbang:

No, besides I'm follower of Christ so I only date Christian women.
Er, one could be a Christian woman who formally had a penis (attached to her body). What has religion got to do with it?

Heh. I don't need to prove you wrong. I just didn't appreciate being insulted just because I happen to have a slightly different understanding of what God sees as morality.

i'm not insulting anybody. the way i feel about something has nothing to do with the way anyone else feels about it. if you got pissed it's because you wanted to get pissed, not because i pissed you off.

1. if someone who was born a man has sex with someone who was born a man then they are gay.

Nope, they'd be having gay sex, but neither would need to be gay. Heck, they could even be straight.

What's funny to me is that you may already have and don't realise it.

actually, i abstain. so i highly doubt that i have had sex with a man. nice try though.

Nope, they'd be having gay sex, but neither would need to be gay. Heck, they could even be straight.

They'd be having gay sex even if one of them is currently a woman? Let's say, in ten or twenty years, or however long it takes to perfect the sexual reassignment operation. One partner could in every measurable way, genetically and phyisically, be a fertile woman, and it would still be a homosexual act for a man to sleep with her?

Edit: What if a woman slept with her?

i'm not insulting anybody. the way i feel about something has nothing to do with the way anyone else feels about it. if you got pissed it's because you wanted to get pissed, not because i pissed you off.

You suggested that some folks either aren't really Christian and/or aren't really straight because they hold to a different standard of morality. That strikes directly at a person's identity, and is almost guaranteed to cause some form of negative emotional reaction. You must have known this being the smart fellow that you are, and being the loving Christian that you are you surely could have found a way to express your opinion sans the insults.

For example:

I think that having sex with a post-operative transexual would be equivalent to performing a homosexual act, which I consider to be immoral.

See how easy that is? Even I can do it.

Nope, they'd be having gay sex, but neither would need to be gay. Heck, they could even be straight.

okay, what you are saying is completely assinine.
let me sum up what you just said:

'if a man had sex with a man it would not be considerd a homosexual act.'

wow. i didn't know that the definition of homosexuality had been changed. i should get out more i guess.

They'd be having gay sex even if one of them is currently a woman? Let's say, in ten or twenty years, or however long it takes to perfect the sexual reassignment operation. One partner could in every measurable way, genetically and phyisically, be a fertile woman, and it would still be a homosexual act for a man to sleep with her?

Edit: What if a woman slept with her?

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9621337&postcount=76

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9621342&postcount=78

You said something, I would like you to clarify your sentiment.

Edit for further clarity:

WHY is sex with someone who is no longer a man a homosexual act if a man sleeps with them?

WHY would a women sleeping with someone who is no longer a man NOT be considered homosexual?

WHAT IF the sexual reassignment operation were 100% effective. Men who underwent it would be a fully functional women in every way, equipped with fully functional sexual and reproductive organs, including ovaries and a uterus? Would this person still be a man, even if able to bear children?

wow. i didn't know that the definition of homosexuality had been changed. i should get out more i guess
Actually the definition of homosexuality isnt particularly easy to ascertain, relying as it does on other words and concepts whose meanings are not entirely easy to ascertain.

[QUOTE=HotRodia]You suggested that some folks either aren't really Christian and/or aren't really straight because they hold to a different standard of morality. That strikes directly at a person's identity, and is almost guaranteed to cause some form of negative emotional reaction. You must have known this being the smart fellow that you are, and being the loving Christian that you are you surely could have found a way to express your opinion sans the insults.[QUOTE]

sure it's 'almost guaranteed' to cause a negative reaction. but it's not actually guaranteed. if someone let's me have that much control over their emotions then that is their problem.

alright, how about this. i'm not going to change anyone's opinion. nobody is going to change mine. so as far as i'm concerned, i'm done.

okay, what you are saying is completely assinine.
let me sum up what you just said:

'if a man had sex with a man it would not be considerd a homosexual act.'

wow. i didn't know that the definition of homosexuality had been changed. i should get out more i guess.

Where did I say that?

sure it's 'almost guaranteed' to cause a negative reaction. but it's not actually guaranteed. if someone let's me have that much control over their emotions then that is their problem.

It is indeed their problem, but you are responsible for inducing it despite knowing the likely outcome.

Where did I say that?

oh crap! i misspelled considered

Edit for further clarity:

WHY is sex with someone who is no longer a man a homosexual act if a man sleeps with them?

WHY would a women sleeping with someone who is no longer a man NOT be considered homosexual?

WHAT IF the sexual reassignment operation were 100% effective. Men who underwent it would be a fully functional women in every way, equipped with fully functional sexual and reproductive organs, including ovaries and a uterus? Would this person still be a man, even if able to bear children?

I never claimed any of this.

Just a thouht: what if you would be born a man, get an operation to become a woman, but still be attracted to women?
That would be funny wouldn't it?

Nope, they'd be having gay sex.


You said it right there... I linked to this post in my previous one...

You missed the point.

I didn't dodge the question. You asked my basis, and I gave it. I find people who fix on a singular aspect of a person as the basis for their "truth" to be sad and alarming. It's like those men who look at a perfectly wonderful woman and won't talk to her because her tits aren't big enough.

You asked what gives me the right to attack those who wouldn't and my anser is that "those who wouldn't" are foolish and misguided. We had a poster recently who was damning all of creation because he prayed for a woman and got a "tranny" .. even though he got what he prayed for, it wasn't good enough.

That's where my arrogance comes from. I've never dodged a question in my life.

Sure you have, just now. I understand your point and tend to agree with it, but you have provided no proof of your allegation that people who say "hell no" are people who would divorce their wives if they found out she fucked a black man in college. You made that claim explicitly, now either back it up or admit you have no proof. Not only that, but you have judged people in the way you say you don't - you find people who judge others based on a singular aspect of the other's being as "sad and alarming" yet you, yourself, have judged people who said "hell no" as being "sad and alarming." You, who hope that people don't judge based on a singular aspect, have judged people based on a singular aspect - because they won't accept post op. transgenders, they also won't accept their wife having had sex with a black man - do you not see the illogical position you have taken?

Gotta love the way that those confronted with the fact that what they abhor in others is that which they practice themselves will dissapear. No answer or even a post since this went up. Where are you Keruvalia? Having trouble getting your foot out of your mouth? Don't you hate it when your own logic eats you alive?

You said it right there... I linked to this post in my previous one...

Oh right, well, if one of them was actually a woman, they wouldn't be two men having sex now would they? And so my statement would not be about them.

oh crap! i misspelled considered

That's besides the point. Two men who have sex are not automatically homosexuals.

Oh right, well, if one of them was actually a woman, they wouldn't be two men having sex now would they? And so my statement would not be about them.


Ok, thank you. All I wanted. :)

Ok, thank you. All I wanted. :)

That's nice and all, but why did you want it from me?

That's nice and all, but why did you want it from me?

'Cause I was trying not to talk to FeetBeats. He wanted to go back to his cereal, and I didn't want to be responsible for keeping him from it. You seemed to express a similar opinion, so I asked you.

I couldn't care less whether she was born with a dick or not. That said, chances are (overwhelmingly so) that I's be weirded out, at least for a couple of days.
I'm not making any judgments or anything, but all the transsexuals I've met (not many), have been utter nutters. But assuming I was in love with her, it wouldn't be relationship ender... Unless, of course, she'd get too pissed at me for not knowing how to handle it for a couple of days.

Here I was thinking straight men will have sex with anything that has a hole in it.
Well i wouldnt have sex with a pencil sharpener even if i REALLY loved it

mind if i chuck in my two cents even if i don't qualify neither as straight nor as a boy? ;)

i hope, i wish, i pray that i could be able to love an person because of their character, their soul, or whatever else you may call all of these things.

unfortunately, i find myself somehow being able to fall in love with women only. i don't like it, it broke my heart when i once had to turn down a man who really was one of the greatest peoepl i ever knew but i just couldn't love him, but it seems like it nothin i can steer with my willpower.

i therefore guess, upon the evidence collected by my own little experience, that we are tied to our biology and, the truly blessed bisexuals excepted, are chained to make our potential partner's body shape a factor. that is why i do not think that i couldbe with a pre-op, as much as i regret having to say that.

buti do not see what would keep me from being with a post-op. apart from prejudice trained into you by the present state of society, or initial bewilderment at this extic state, or whatever. yes, i guess i'd first have to swallow as well. i guess i had a million questions, and i'd need to talk about it, to have time to fit it into everything. but that done..

and for the kids thing: come on now. there's adoption. there's surrogacy. this really is not an argument. or would you guys not be with an infertile woman? you know, that happens, sometimes, without the woman ahving to know. what if you married a "normal" woman, tried to have kids, and found out you couldn't? would you divorce her?! what if you yourself were sterile? would you ask your wife to divorce you so thats he could be happier and have kids?

and for the kids thing: come on now. there's adoption. there's surrogacy. this really is not an argument. or would you guys not be with an infertile woman? you know, that happens, sometimes, without the woman ahving to know. what if you married a "normal" woman, tried to have kids, and found out you couldn't? would you divorce her?! what if you yourself were sterile? would you ask your wife to divorce you so thats he could be happier and have kids?


Yeah, if I was married to a woman who didn't know she couldn't have a kid I'd probably stick with her, but if someone lies to me, I'm likely to be pissed off. "Honey, why can't you have kids?" "Well, I used to be a boy." That's a real deal-breaker right there. It'd be fine and dandy to ignore that kinda stuff, but it ain't gonna happen.

As a bisexual woman, I think I'm somehow entitled to answer the original question as well:

No, I don't think I would have problems with that. I'm attrackted to personality first, looks second, and I find that people who have been going through emotional stress generally show a very different pattern of behaviour/personality than those who haven't. Having not had the easiest life concerning emotional development and sexuality myself, I do find myself more attrackted to people with similar experiences.

Yes, I do realise that I may sound superficial and even cynical here, and I apologise in advance if I should come across like that.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

no..because he would..she...well they would have been born a man..think what your freinds, familly, work mates would say!...nope definatly not thanue.

I think "if you really love her" somewhat precludes you saying no.

Um… hard to say but I don't think I would continue. It just really wouldn't feel right… really wouldn't… and you need to be comfortable in love… also the question of children might arise.

Made love, not fuck.

and yes nature does make mistakes, hence people who are born deaf, blind whatever.
So people born deaf or blind are "mistakes of nature"? My cousin was born deaf - she has a very full and rewarding life, including a loving husband and children. You might want to chose your wording more carefully. People are born differently abled, not disabled...

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

Yes. No reason needed. If I loved her, then that's all that matters.

differently abled..*shaeks head in disbelief*
i lived in the USA for a year and i learned a lot about your sense of political correctness..about being "vertically challenged" and "differently abled" and such..

honestly now.

(p.s. being handicapped myself (i was born with only one hand), i can assure you that i'm talking wout of the perspective of one who is afflicted herself, so don't give me the ignorance cap as it won't fit.)

if you are born or otherwsely afflicted with/by things that we call handicaps, such as bind/deaf/mute, with missing or crippled limbs or whatever, than you are disabled. in the very sense of the word. there is a part of the functioning system of the human body that you are not able to use. period. if you're blind, your eyes and you are not differently abled, but disabled.
and yes, that'll ahve disadvantages for you.

but all of the above does not discredit or dishonor anybody in any way. tehre is no need to get in a frenzy about being called disabled, cuz there is no rudeness or anything in it. and it doesn't mean you cannot hvae a rewarding, fulfilling life, or be loved or anything, either. its just stating a fact.

of course many disbaled people become better at other things in order to compensate for their handicap. a blind man, e.g., might train his hearing a heck lot better than i do. so yes, he'd be differently abled.

summing it up: if you're missing one or several functions, you are disbled. that'll prve to be disadvantageous for you in some situatins where that function is needed, and thre's no way of denying that. this doesn not make you any inferior to anybody else, though. at the same time, you can be better at some things than others. with this, you can compensate for you disability, but it doesn't make you any the less disabled!

So people born deaf or blind are "mistakes of nature"? My cousin was born deaf - she has a very full and rewarding life, including a loving husband and children. You might want to chose your wording more carefully. People are born differently abled, not disabled... Just because you're born with what is, for all purposes, a defect, does not mean you cannot have a full life. Many people have defects ranging from those you hardly notice to those you do. Spade = spade.

Disabled is one thing, as it is a scientific term. Calling deaf or blind people "mistakes of nature" is pretty rough, though. Imagine the furore if I called black people "mistakes of nature"...

P.S. For the record, SoWiBi, my sense of "political correcteness" comes from Australia, never having been to the USA in my life. And also for the record, I consider 98% of what the PC movement push to be utter bullshit.

Disabled is one thing, as it is a scientific term. Calling deaf or blind people "mistakes of nature" is pretty rough, though. Imagine the furore if I called black people "mistakes of anture"...

P.S. For the record, SoWiBi, my sense of "political correcteness" comes from Australia, never having been to the USA in my life. And for the record, I consider 98% of what the PC movement push as propoganda to be utter bullshit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not referring to the people as mistakes of nature, otherwise you could class me as a mistake of nature. Obviously their disabilities are, but not the people. I wouldn't call Stephen Hawking a mistake!

Disabled is one thing, as it is a scientific term. Calling deaf or blind people "mistakes of nature" is pretty rough, though. Imagine the furore if I called black people "mistakes of nature"...

P.S. For the record, SoWiBi, my sense of "political correcteness" comes from Australia, never having been to the USA in my life. And also for the record, I consider 98% of what the PC movement push to be utter bullshit.

I wouldn't go so far as calling them "mistakes of nature", as that would imply that in some way they are less human than others. However, I would say that a mistake happened when they were created insofar as some part of their body or even their whole body is less functional than would be the norm. And I would say that about both blind or deaf people and transsexuals.

Let me ask you a question : If there was an operation that would enable your cousin to hear, would you object to hom having it?
Would you - after he had that operation - insist that he tells everybody he gets to know about that situation straight out? Or would you naturally assume that he would tell them when he feels the time is right?

Well, seeing as how my last boyfriend was planning to go on hormone treatments and essentially live as a girl (though curiously, he didn't want to get an operation), I must say that I was a tad concerned about it, but as long as he kept his privates, I doubt I'd care, and anyway all that matters is making the one you love happy.

Hell, even if he did remove them the only thing I'd feel bad about is the fact that he would be unable to achieve orgasm.

But hey, I'm bisexual, so this topic probably isn't for me. Oh well, just throwing my two cents in... Sorry if I shouldn't have posted.

Nope.

I would basically still consider them a man.

'Cause I was trying not to talk to FeetBeats. He wanted to go back to his cereal, and I didn't want to be responsible for keeping him from it. You seemed to express a similar opinion, so I asked you.

Except I wasn't, which I hoped was quite obvious.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?
Well, I think your question is a bit muddled. Somebody probably already mentioned it, but it basically says "Would you do $ACTION if you really like doing $ACTION?"
A better version of the question might ask "Would you ever be willing to enter into a relationship with a transwoman?"
I have a feeling that some of the people that answered 'yes' to your original question would answer 'no' to this one.

Also, I think you could get more interesting results if you opened it up a bit more. How about if you opened it to to FtM transsexuals too? As in:
"Straights, would you ever be willing to enter into a relationship with a transperson?"
The results would probably be similar.

Hell, you could open it up to the homosexuals and bisexuals as well, and poll them on both their sexual preference and whether they would enter into a relationship with a transperson.
I'd be willing to bet that the results still wouldn't be a whole lot different. Perhaps some, but on the whole I rather doubt it.

Ah, well.

Well, seeing as how my last boyfriend was planning to go on hormone treatments and essentially live as a girl (though curiously, he didn't want to get an operation), I must say that I was a tad concerned about it, but as long as he kept his privates, I doubt I'd care, and anyway all that matters is making the one you love happy.

Hell, even if he did remove them the only thing I'd feel bad about is the fact that he would be unable to achieve orgasm.

But hey, I'm bisexual, so this topic probably isn't for me. Oh well, just throwing my two cents in... Sorry if I shouldn't have posted.

I understand he/she would be quite capable of having orgasms even after the operation. I'm no surgeon, but from what I've heard, the penis gets transformed into something like a klitoris during the procedure. Vaginal orgasms are not possible, however.

Well, I think your question is a bit muddled. Somebody probably already mentioned it, but it basically says "Would you do $ACTION if you really like doing $ACTION?"
A better version of the question might ask "Would you ever be willing to enter into a relationship with a transwoman?"
I have a feeling that some of the people that answered 'yes' to your original question would answer 'no' to this one.

Also, I think you could get more interesting results if you opened it up a bit more. How about if you opened it to to FtM transsexuals too? As in:
"Straights, would you ever be willing to enter into a relationship with a transperson?"
The results would probably be similar.

Hell, you could open it up to the homosexuals and bisexuals as well, and poll them on both their sexual preference and whether they would enter into a relationship with a transperson.
I'd be willing to bet that the results still wouldn't be a whole lot different. Perhaps some, but on the whole I rather doubt it.

Ah, well.

So, you would ask if girls would have a relationship with a transsexual girl?
Sure, why not?

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?
Probably not. Well that is I doubt I would end up in a romantic relationship with one. I know some tranvestites and some pre-ops and generally they just don't attract me. Something essentially female is just plain missing.

Probably not. Well that is I doubt I would end up in a romantic relationship with one. I know some tranvestites and some pre-ops and generally they just don't attract me. Something essentially female is just plain missing. C'est un je ne sais quoi, oui?…

Yes. It would be weird, but if I love her....

I don't think so really, but you never know what you'll do until you do it. I would venture a wild guess that a pretty high percentage of the men who fell in love with girls that used to be dudes never thought they would.

So, you would ask if girls would have a relationship with a transsexual girl?
Well, that's part of it.
I would ask if anybody, male or female, would have a relationship with a transwoman or transman.

I suspect that knowing she was a transexual would kill trhe attraction for me in the same was that I wouldn't feel attraction for another guy. It's probably very unfair but I just wouldn't feel comfortable with it.

C'est un je ne sais quoi, oui?…

No hablo Frog....

I understand he/she would be quite capable of having orgasms even after the operation. I'm no surgeon, but from what I've heard, the penis gets transformed into something like a klitoris during the procedure. Vaginal orgasms are not possible, however.

Hmm...

I'm not with him anymore though... ._.;;

If you've ever read the manga Gravitation, just think of Shuichi and Yuki. It's not good. x_X

Where are you Keruvalia? Having trouble getting your foot out of your mouth? Don't you hate it when your own logic eats you alive? [/sarcasm]

:p

No, actually ... 2 things happened:

1] I remember that arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics ... you may win, but you're still retarded.

2] I went to bed. It was very late.

So .... there.

Well, that's part of it.
I would ask if anybody, male or female, would have a relationship with a transwoman or transman.
It shouldn't matter. If you love someone, it's love, regardless of the gender, and while learning that the person may have once been a man, it really shouldn't matter. A lot of things are worse then that, and a lot of them will come up in the course of a normal relationship, and if you can't deal with those problems, you're most likely not in love anyway.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?If I Really LOVE her? probably, hard to say tho.

whoever brings religion into a discussion like this needs to be shot on the spot.


:mp5:

whoever brings religion into a discussion like this needs to be shot on the spot.


:mp5: My religion dictates that women don't exist; therefore, transsexuals are not possible.

[EDIT/] Ew, I just got something horribly sticky on my finger.

That's besides the point. Two men who have sex are not automatically homosexuals.

when did they change the definition of homosexual!?! i would really like to know! :( :sniper:

when did they change the definition of homosexual!?! i would really like to know! :( :sniper: If a gay man has sex with a woman, does it automatically make him heterosexual?
No, I thought not.

i would like to point out that there is no such thing as being gay or being born 'in the body of the opposite sex'. come on. the only reason these people have these feelings is because society has assigned certain tendencies to a certain sex. if a man is overly feminine they are considered gay. if a woman is overly tough they are considered a lesbian. if society dropped stereotypes all together (yeah right) we wouldn't have sexual deviants. i know about 50 of you are going to quote me on that, so let me stop you right now. i've stated my point of view. i've heard all other sides of this arguement. this is my position, like it or not.

If a gay man has sex with a woman, does it automatically make him heterosexual?
No, I thought not.

no, it makes him 'bisexual'. though it seems that you enjoy answering your own questions: "no, i thought not".
come on. we aren't 13 anymore.

i would like to point out that there is no such thing as being gay or being born 'in the body of the opposite sex'. come on. the only reason these people have these feelings is because society has assigned certain tendencies to a certain sex. if a man is overly feminine they are considered gay. if a woman is overly tough they are considered a lesbian. if society dropped stereotypes all together (yeah right) we wouldn't have sexual deviants. i know about 50 of you are going to quote me on that, so let me stop you right now. i've stated my point of view. i've heard all other sides of this arguement. this is my position, like it or not.
There isn't something as being born gay? Really. Care to try fucking men? I think you can be our first experimental subject. Go to your nearest gay bar and start hitting on men, then sleeping with them. Be sure to record if you enjoy it or not. It's for science, comrade.

There isn't something as being born gay? Really. Care to try fucking men? I think you can be our first experimental subject. Go to your nearest gay bar and start hitting on men, then sleeping with them. Be sure to record if you enjoy it or not. It's for science, comrade.

what!?! i'm sorry. i thought i made myself clear in the 'don't quote me on that' part of my statement. i've heard your argument before. i really don't care to hear it again. analyze me all you want. you're still repeating what has already been said.

what!?! i'm sorry. i thought i made myself clear in the 'don't quote me on that' part of my statement. i've heard your argument before. i really don't care to hear it again. analyze me all you want. you're still repeating what has already been said.

Anyone has a right to comment on it. Though maybe you could be more open minded and things like this wouldn't happen.

For the answer to the topic; yes of course. :)

Sure why not, as long as there arent any *ahem* remnants *ahem* .

what!?! i'm sorry. i thought i made myself clear in the 'don't quote me on that' part of my statement. i've heard your argument before. i really don't care to hear it again. analyze me all you want. you're still repeating what has already been said.

You are almost certainly going to be contested on that point unless you put it in the format of the opinion rather than a fact.
Well you would either way actually, but eh

Anyone has a right to comment on it. Though maybe you could be more open minded and things like this wouldn't happen.
:)

i realize that and i am open minded. i have heard and considered all points of this subject. i have made my decision based on these points. you will not be able to change my mind by repeating what has been said already. therefore, you are wasting your own time.

You are almost certainly going to be contested on that point unless you put it in the format of the opinion rather than a fact.


i stated my opinion. in my opinion that is fact. besides, i don't mind you wasting your time.

Just a thouht: what if you would be born a man, get an operation to become a woman, but still be attracted to women?
That would be funny wouldn't it?
Not particularly, it happens all the time.

Quite simply, the love issue is the main point. If I loved her, you know, I might.

Right at the moment now: No. Absolutely no.

i would like to point out that there is no such thing as being gay or being born 'in the body of the opposite sex'.[/SIZE][/COLOR]
...really? :rolleyes:



Tell me, if a post-operative transwoman is really still a man, then her (with breasts and a vagina) having sex with a woman is ok? After all, they would be a man (with breasts and a vagina) and a woman...

i realize that and i am open minded. i have heard and considered all points of this subject. i have made my decision based on these points. you will not be able to change my mind by repeating what has been said already. therefore, you are wasting your own time.

What if we don't want to change your mind and are just saying that people have a right to comment on it. O.O? Listening can be a miracle and sometimes it can be too hard for anyone to do, but personal views are rarely changed through textual or vocal excahnges of ideas. Personal experience with such would.

...really? :rolleyes:



Tell me, if a post-operative transwoman is really still a man, then her (with breasts and a vagina) having sex with a woman is ok? After all, they would be a man (with breasts and a vagina) and a woman...

OMG ya! So if two 'girls' were really the same 'true' sex that they were born with then under your logic that means these two 'women' can get married. That means there is a WHOLE flaw in your logic and your only choice is to accept it or be a hypocrit.

i would like to point out that there is no such thing as being gay or being born 'in the body of the opposite sex'. come on. the only reason these people have these feelings is because society has assigned certain tendencies to a certain sex. if a man is overly feminine they are considered gay. if a woman is overly tough they are considered a lesbian. if society dropped stereotypes all together (yeah right) we wouldn't have sexual deviants. i know about 50 of you are going to quote me on that, so let me stop you right now. i've stated my point of view. i've heard all other sides of this arguement. this is my position, like it or not

I would seriously have to doubt this. The ancient Greeks and Romans did not have specific concepts of sexual orientation, and yet homosexuality was as common then as it is today.

I find it interesting that I just found this thread. I just found out this guy that has a crush on me is going to begin taking hormones in May and will eventually get surgery to become a woman.

Just curious as to if anyone can answer this for me because I get lots of various responses: If someone is genetically male/female but feels themselves to be the opposite gender but is pre-op, which pronoun do you address them as?

I find it interesting that I just found this thread. I just found out this guy that has a crush on me is going to begin taking hormones in May and will eventually get surgery to become a woman.

Just curious as to if anyone can answer this for me because I get lots of various responses: If someone is genetically male/female but feels themselves to be the opposite gender but is pre-op, which pronoun do you address them as?
Ask them. It will usually be that of the sex they are becoming.

I would seriously have to doubt this. The ancient Greeks and Romans did not have specific concepts of sexual orientation, and yet homosexuality was as common then as it is today.

They embraced it....

The anicent gods they believed in had sex with each other and with people and animals and everything. Even their children. Being homosexual has been and has always been a part of the world, like it or not.

In Japan homosexuality was thought of a better pursuit then heterosexuality at one point. It was perfectly OK to be gay and even in Japan and Europe being queer is not this big 'OH NO! YOUR EVIL AND BAD!' stuff you get in America.

Being queer is not limited to the realm of mankind either, its everywhere in nature.

Ask them. It will usually be that of the sex they are becoming.

Yea, but I am hoping for some kind of a generic rule.

I find it interesting that I just found this thread. I just found out this guy that has a crush on me is going to begin taking hormones in May and will eventually get surgery to become a woman.

Just curious as to if anyone can answer this for me because I get lots of various responses: If someone is genetically male/female but feels themselves to be the opposite gender but is pre-op, which pronoun do you address them as?
Well, wouldn't it make sense to ask them what they want to be called?

EDIT:
Aha, Nadkor beat me to it.

I find it interesting that I just found this thread. I just found out this guy that has a crush on me is going to begin taking hormones in May and will eventually get surgery to become a woman.

Just curious as to if anyone can answer this for me because I get lots of various responses: If someone is genetically male/female but feels themselves to be the opposite gender but is pre-op, which pronoun do you address them as?
I believe it is generally considered tactful to address them as their preferred gender, provided that it is widely known. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm sure that NA can give us some guidance.

I find it interesting that I just found this thread. I just found out this guy that has a crush on me is going to begin taking hormones in May and will eventually get surgery to become a woman.

Just curious as to if anyone can answer this for me because I get lots of various responses: If someone is genetically male/female but feels themselves to be the opposite gender but is pre-op, which pronoun do you address them as?

Feeling is one thing. There are people who are men, with XX chromosomes. They are male in every way, however, they have a reproductive deficiency, namely, their testes don't work.

Vise versa there are XY females who have the same traits, all female, but they can't have children.

In reality, (For example) unless someone is XY male and is straight, and has all the male components, and is fully functional. Then and only then, can anyone say for certain he is male.

So basically, for your case, I'd call him what he wants to be called, but I'd still regard him as what he was pre-op in my mind.

Yea, but I am hoping for some kind of a generic rule.
Well, for starters, I somehow doubt that the point of SRS would be a point to switch pronouns. Transsexuals are generally living as their gender of choice quite a while before the reassignment surgery.

Of course, I can't give you a set-in-stone rule of when you call them what. If I were pressed, I suppose I might offer the point at which they start living as their gender of choice as the point at which you switch pronouns when speaking to others, as that seems to make sense.

However, I can't really speak for everybody.

Feeling is one thing. There are people who are men, with XX chromosomes. They are male in every way, however, they have a reproductive deficiency, namely, their testes don't work.

Vise versa there are XY females who have the same traits, all female, but they can't have children.

In reality, (For example) unless someone is XY male and is straight, and has all the male components, and is fully functional. Then and only then, can anyone say for certain he is male.

So basically, for your case, I'd call him what he wants to be called, but I'd still regard him as what he was pre-op in my mind.

That's a scientific look at it, but why should one be labeled for there reproductive capabilities?

To be 'positive male' you need to either be XY and not XX, gay AND functional?

Wow....I'll have to consider that in 60-70 years when my 'functionality' drops to near nothing without Viagra....

We still live in an age where people believe that "penis == boy".
In all fairness, as a working definition its not bad.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in the situation suggested at the beginning of this thread. It is not as blindingly obvious as a large number of people here seem to think it is. I'm pretty sure that pre-op, I couldn't go for it. I guess actually it comes down to the rather demeaning question of passability.

That's a scientific look at it, but why should one be labeled for there reproductive capabilities?

To be 'positive male' you need to either be XY and not XX, gay AND functional?

Wow....I'll have to consider that in 60-70 years when my 'functionality' drops to near nothing without Viagra....

There is no one criteria that is an end all be all, even in gender. That's why there needs to be more than one, and that's also why I mentioned that I'd regard them however they want to be regarded as.

Also, yes, you will have to think about that. If you want. Pick and choose from my list of criteria as you please.

Yea, but I am hoping for some kind of a generic rule.
I believe either asking them, or referring to them in the gender they wish to be/act in is the proper way to go about it. Asking is most likely the best idea though, saves time and possible embarrassment.

Yea, but I am hoping for some kind of a generic rule.
Just ask. I wouldn't be offended, and I can't imagine others being offended.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?
OK, I am Christian I believe it would wrong to alter your body in such a manner.

But, I am also Married with Children and know about Love.

Love is unpredictable.

I dont believe anyone can say conclusively what they would do--besides someone so completely bigoted against the people you speak to be consumed with a hate that would overide any sense of affinity no matter how strong.

As i said I believe the act would be a sin--but I have sinned before.

OK, I am Christian I believe it would wrong to alter your body in such a manner.
Why though? I've never seen that opinion justified by anyone in a theological sense (ie, why your Christianity makes you believe that)

Well to, the starter of this thread, make sure that you do disclose the fact that you have had that surgery well before any kind of intimacy...

There was a case where a "woman" gave some dudes blow jobs. When they found out "its" status, they killed "it"

And I appreciate that sentiment. While I would never take someone's life unless it was self-defense, the anger I would feel for being decieved would probably make me feel suicidal.

There should be a law to send pre-ops and transgenders to jail for life for perpetrating such a heinous act as decieving a straight person.

DISCLOSE DISCLOSE DISCLOSE

In reply to the question; are you fudging nuts? Hell no. That's just...

"Hell to the no!" -Whitney Houston

To answer the original question: Being a straight man, No I would not.

I would suggest that you live either as a gay man or undergo treatment to become heterosexual. Both options are a lot easier....

Well to, the starter of this thread, make sure that you do disclose the fact that you have had that surgery well before any kind of intimacy...

There was a case where a "woman" gave some dudes blow jobs. When they found out "its" status, they killed "it"
"it"?

And I appreciate that sentiment. While I would never take someone's life unless it was self-defense, the anger I would feel for being decieved would probably make me feel suicidal.
In what way would you have been "decieved"?

You saw the woman, you saw what you were getting, and you went with it.

There should be a law to send pre-ops and transgenders to jail for life for perpetrating such a heinous act as decieving a straight person.
Would this apply to post operative transexuals as well?

To answer the original question: Being a straight man, No I would not.
As a straight man you wouldn't have sex with a woman? :confused:

I would suggest that you live either as a gay man or undergo treatment to become heterosexual. Both options are a lot easier....
That just shows a massive lack of knowledge about the issue.

There should be a law to send pre-ops and transgenders to jail for life for perpetrating such a heinous act as decieving a straight person.
Well, wouldn't that just mean they'd never tell you?

I sincerely doubt that I would enter a relationship with a transgendered person of any variety. Now, don't be so quick to call me closed-minded and spew rhetoric all over me. I've no problem with transgenders or anything of the sort, I just would not be comfortable in that relationship, so I distance myself.

I wouldent personally. I have never been attracted to anyone other than a girl, and one with boobies. Im a teen. I like boobies. Big ones, perferably. But, note, im always the one who gets dumped because I get waaaay to into a relation ship; so im not THAT shallow.
But, if the information bomb was dropped at the right time, I dunno. I might be able to deal with something like that. Because unless your a total slut, you love someone before you have sex with someone. And love has "No colors, genders, or nationalities", or so says Guitar Wolf

As a straight man you wouldn't have sex with a woman? :confused:


That just shows a massive lack of knowledge about the issue.
No, it's frankly the point they aren't a woman. Having an operation does not a woman make. People bringing up genetic mistakes such as XX males, or XY females, or XXY males, or even XXY females miss the point: A) Those are extremely rare situations with odds around 1:1,000,000 in most cases. B) Those still aren't really "male" or "female", which can be stated as "XX" or "XY" to be more definitive on the matter. They are XXY males, or XY females, etc. If someone was born what is typically known as a "man", was raised that way, and then decided "no, I'm a woman" and had an operation to try and make it so...most straight men would recoil in horror. If I castrate a man, he is still a man, although his "manhood" has been lost. If I take a man and give him an operation to make him look alike to, and have the same organs as, a woman, guess what? He's still a man. If you don't like the cards you are dealt, that's really your problem. If you take a monkey and dress him in human clothes, he's still a monkey. Comprenez-vous?

No, it's frankly the point they aren't a woman. Having an operation does not a woman make. People bringing up genetic mistakes such as XX males, or XY females, or XXY males, or even XXY females miss the point: A) Those are extremely rare situations with odds around 1:1,000,000 in most cases. B) Those still aren't really "male" or "female", which can be stated as "XX" or "XY" to be more definitive on the matter. They are XXY males, or XY females, etc. If someone was born what is typically known as a "man", was raised that way, and then decided "no, I'm a woman" and had an operation to try and make it so...most straight men would recoil in horror. If I castrate a man, he is still a man, although his "manhood" has been lost. If I take a man and give him an operation to make him look alike to, and have the same organs as, a woman, guess what? He's still a man. If you don't like the cards you are dealt, that's really your problem. If you take a monkey and dress him in human clothes, he's still a monkey. Comprenez-vous?
It isn't "not liking" who you are, it's that your brain is hardwired differently. You don't feel as if you are a man. For all intents and purposes, you're a female person trapped in a male's body. What wins out, the brain or the body?

No, it's frankly the point they aren't a woman. Having an operation does not a woman make. People bringing up genetic mistakes such as XX males, or XY females, or XXY males, or even XXY females miss the point: A) Those are extremely rare situations with odds around 1:1,000,000 in most cases. B) Those still aren't really "male" or "female", which can be stated as "XX" or "XY" to be more definitive on the matter. They are XXY males, or XY females, etc. If someone was born what is typically known as a "man", was raised that way, and then decided "no, I'm a woman" and had an operation to try and make it so...most straight men would recoil in horror. If I castrate a man, he is still a man, although his "manhood" has been lost. If I take a man and give him an operation to make him look alike to, and have the same organs as, a woman, guess what? He's still a man. If you don't like the cards you are dealt, that's really your problem. If you take a monkey and dress him in human clothes, he's still a monkey. Comprenez-vous?

This isn't as simple as dressing them differently.

They have a woman's personality, a woman's body and for all intents and purposes are a woman. They just were born with the wrong parts down below.

To answer the original question: Being a straight man, No I would not.

I would suggest that you live either as a gay man or undergo treatment to become heterosexual. Both options are a lot easier....

You do realize that the bolded part is a con game right? That it doesn't actually work? That every "success story" those people have had are getting paid big bucks by the groups who supposedly "cured" them?

No, it's frankly the point they aren't a woman. Having an operation does not a woman make.
Aside from chromosones (which we already know are not definitive), tell me what you would use to classify someone as a woman.

People bringing up genetic mistakes such as XX males, or XY females, or XXY males, or even XXY females miss the point: A) Those are extremely rare situations with odds around 1:1,000,000 in most cases. B) Those still aren't really "male" or "female", which can be stated as "XX" or "XY" to be more definitive on the matter. They are XXY males, or XY females, etc.
Take this example. A girl is born. Until the age of 13 she appears to be a perfectly healthy and normal girl. However, she doesn't enter puberty, and doctors discover that she actually is an "XY Female". Would you like to be the one to tell her that she isn't really a girl?

If someone was born what is typically known as a "man", was raised that way, and then decided "no, I'm a woman" and had an operation to try and make it so...most straight men would recoil in horror.
It's not a decision. It's something that they've always felt, just haven't known how to express it.

And whether or not most straight men would recoil in horror, that really isn't an issue.

You know, it's entirely possible that you know a post operative transexual, and know her as a woman, and call her a woman.

If I castrate a man, he is still a man, although his "manhood" has been lost.
That's a different issue (although his "manhood" wouldn't be lost). He is still a man because that's who he is as a person. He still thinks he is a man. A transexual never felt they were their 'birth sex'.

If I take a man and give him an operation to make him look alike to, and have the same organs as, a woman, guess what? He's still a man.

A man with breasts and a vagina?

How many men do you know that look like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b2/Cossey.jpg
http://www.carlaantonelli.com/tula2_trans_ingles.jpg

If you don't like the cards you are dealt, that's really your problem. If you take a monkey and dress him in human clothes, he's still a monkey. Comprenez-vous?
That's a very, very poor analogy.



I pretty much cannot be arsed arguing anymore.

Because unless your a total slut, you love someone before you have sex with someone.
I and everyone I know must be a total slut.

No.

1) Not a "she" to begin with. Surgery does not change that.
2) I will date/marry a Christian.
3) I want kids. Hello!

well if she told me i would say no, but with good surgens like a boob job new vagina hormone injections and a good shave and i wouldnt now the difference.

Uh... I.... Don't...Think... No... I don't know?

How many men do you know that look like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b2/Cossey.jpg
http://www.carlaantonelli.com/tula2_trans_ingles.jpg

errr... you'll be surprised, There is a Talk show called Maury... Every now and then, they hold a Mr or Miss contest where they have several cross dressers and women come out and parade infront of the studio audience and they have to guess, Mr or Miss... and.... well... let's just say, no one has yet gotten a Hundred Percent.

So to answer your question, there are some that do look like that.

This isn't as simple as dressing them differently.

They have a woman's personality, a woman's body and for all intents and purposes are a woman. They just were born with the wrong parts down below.
Guess what, they are still a man. It doesn't matter what their personality seems to be, they are still a man. They may identify with woman, but they are a man. The body wins, the genes wins. It's not your body that's the mistake, it's your mind!


Now, an XY female is just that, an XY female. They aren't a girl by the best definition (which would be an XX individual). They are a "girl" because that is the closest thing to call them.


Secondly, if you know a transexual whom is <b>pretending</b> to be a gender different than they are, they are in effect lying to you. Their genes say what they are, not what their brain mistakenly tells them.


Thirdly, it doesn't matter what you feel you are. I may feel I should be the King of Thailand, doesn't mean that I can make myself be that. I may feel I should be a turtle, doesn't mean I should have a shell surgically implanted on my body.


Fourthly, a man/male is a person with XY chromosomes who was born with a male's physiognomy. Nothing can change that. If I take a man and surgically implant a duck's bill to his mouth, and cover his arms with wings...he's still a man.


Frankly put, the problem with transexuals isn't in their body, it's in their mind. They were born with what their genes said they were supposed to have. Now, the fact their genes screwed up something in their brain to give them the mistaken impression they were supposed to be a different gender doesn't mean a thing. The genetic mistake isn't the body, it's the mind.

Well. I'll put in my thoughts. They vary based on the different stages of a relationship when all was, ah, made known:
1) In the beginning - prerelationship:
No. I would not be able to handle it. I'm not proud of this; nor do I present this as good or correct. Just me.

2) Deep into the relationship, ongoing for a year or so, love is present, etc:
Lots of surprises pop up in this timeframe as you learn about your s.o. I think this would cause me to deeply consider, in a concrete & direct manner, what it means to be female - from my point of view. I think I would be "stunned" & need some adjustment time; but, I think it would NOT kill the relationship. Nor would it have an impact on the relationship in the long term. After all, love is present, yes?

3) Finally, while considering my reply, I had a vision pop in my head. In it I am married & happy & been so for a while - and:
SO: "By the way honey - I'm a transgender postop."
Me: "That's nice dear. Is dinner ready?"
SO: "No. Really."
Me: "Woman, we've been married going on ten years now. Whut difference does that make? I loves you! Now how about dinner?"

...really? :rolleyes:



Tell me, if a post-operative transwoman is really still a man, then her (with breasts and a vagina) having sex with a woman is ok? After all, they would be a man (with breasts and a vagina) and a woman...


getting the operation in the first place would be undermining god's work.

What if we don't want to change your mind and are just saying that people have a right to comment on it. O.O? Listening can be a miracle and sometimes it can be too hard for anyone to do, but personal views are rarely changed through textual or vocal excahnges of ideas. Personal experience with such would.

yeah, what if...

Here I was thinking straight men will have sex with anything that has a hole in it.
I think this is another problem we are facing here; male stereotypes. In the media today men are being protrayed as weak minded horny bastards(for lack of a better word). I know that I and many other men out there have standards when it comes to women. I DO NOT DO EVERYTHING THAT HAS TWO LEGS! AND THAT INCLUDES TRANSSEXUAL WOMEN!

How many men do you know that look like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b2/Cossey.jpg
http://www.carlaantonelli.com/tula2_trans_ingles.jpg



About as many women that I know that look like that :p

getting the operation in the first place would be undermining god's work.
Oh so you are one of thoes that refuse medical lifesaving operations because it is going against gods will too?

Guess what, they are still a man. It doesn't matter what their personality seems to be, they are still a man. They may identify with woman, but they are a man. The body wins, the genes wins. It's not your body that's the mistake, it's your mind!


Now, an XY female is just that, an XY female. They aren't a girl by the best definition (which would be an XX individual). They are a "girl" because that is the closest thing to call them.


Secondly, if you know a transexual whom is <b>pretending</b> to be a gender different than they are, they are in effect lying to you. Their genes say what they are, not what their brain mistakenly tells them.


Thirdly, it doesn't matter what you feel you are. I may feel I should be the King of Thailand, doesn't mean that I can make myself be that. I may feel I should be a turtle, doesn't mean I should have a shell surgically implanted on my body.


Fourthly, a man/male is a person with XY chromosomes who was born with a male's physiognomy. Nothing can change that. If I take a man and surgically implant a duck's bill to his mouth, and cover his arms with wings...he's still a man.


Frankly put, the problem with transexuals isn't in their body, it's in their mind. They were born with what their genes said they were supposed to have. Now, the fact their genes screwed up something in their brain to give them the mistaken impression they were supposed to be a different gender doesn't mean a thing. The genetic mistake isn't the body, it's the mind.
Just curious, how do hameophradites born with both sets of sex organs fall into your infallible rating system?

getting the operation in the first place would be undermining god's work.
Yeah, kind of like getting a tattoo, or an earring, or a haircut :rolleyes:

Well. I'll put in my thoughts. They vary based on the different stages of a relationship when all was, ah, made known:
1) In the beginning - prerelationship:
No. I would not be able to handle it. I'm not proud of this; nor do I present this as good or correct. Just me.

2) Deep into the relationship, ongoing for a year or so, love is present, etc:
Lots of surprises pop up in this timeframe as you learn about your s.o. I think this would cause me to deeply consider, in a concrete & direct manner, what it means to be female - from my point of view. I think I would be "stunned" & need some adjustment time; but, I think it would NOT kill the relationship. Nor would it have an impact on the relationship in the long term. After all, love is present, yes?

3) Finally, while considering my reply, I had a vision pop in my head. In it I am married & happy & been so for a while - and:
SO: "By the way honey - I'm a transgender postop."
Me: "That's nice dear. Is dinner ready?"
SO: "No. Really."
Me: "Woman, we've been married going on ten years now. Whut difference does that make? I loves you! Now how about dinner?"


haha thats funny. :)

Well to, the starter of this thread, make sure that you do disclose the fact that you have had that surgery well before any kind of intimacy...

There was a case where a "woman" gave some dudes blow jobs. When they found out "its" status, they killed "it"

And I appreciate that sentiment. While I would never take someone's life unless it was self-defense, the anger I would feel for being decieved would probably make me feel suicidal.

There should be a law to send pre-ops and transgenders to jail for life for perpetrating such a heinous act as decieving a straight person.

DISCLOSE DISCLOSE DISCLOSE


ok why would you call her an It?
what the fuck is wrong with you?
:mad:

getting the operation in the first place would be undermining god's work.


Interesting point.
So, would you also argue that people with visual deficiencies shouldn't wear glasses, as it would undermine god's work? Should we stop the production of hearing aids right this minute as they are blasphemous?

Or is it just the operation you are opposed to?
No retinal corrections any more, no operations to substitute organs that were missing or disfunctional at birth?

Interesting point.
So, would you also argue that people with visual deficiencies shouldn't wear glasses, as it would undermine god's work? Should we stop the production of hearing aids right this minute as they are blasphemous?

Or is it just the operation you are opposed to?
No retinal corrections any more, no operations to substitute organs that were missing or disfunctional at birth?
Ah, the smell of burning ignorance in the morning is the best smell in the world.

...or a haircut :rolleyes:
Only if you are Rastafari

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

Yes.

I'm not one to question what "form" (for lack of a better term) love takes, if it's there, it's meant to be cherished, regardless of socially constructed stigmas.

To me it is not a discrimination issue more a sexual preference issue. I do not mean gay/straight/bi - more what you look for in a partner.
Personally I think a person is 100% justified in setting whatever criteria they want in a partner and if someone does not match that they are perfectly justified in not having a relationship. Too short, too tall, too fat/thin/hairy/bald/loud/quiet/voice too high/voice too low/wrong accent/too smart/too stupid/right handed/name begins with 'e'/etc - all fair criteria to set. You are choosing the most important person in your life and for that you have the right to be pickey.
Personally I would say no, but if someone else is happy with such a relationship then they should go for it.

Just curious, how do hameophradites born with both sets of sex organs fall into your infallible rating system?
Thank you for bringing that up. Although it does not help with the original question, as hardly any transgendered people are hermaphrodites, it is important, as it shows that gender is not such a clear cut thing as most people believe.

Most hermaphrodites were as new borns turned by operation into their chromosome gender. Starting from puberty they have to take hormones to "stay" male/female. There are a lot of examples of hermaphrodites who are deeply unhappy about their gender state because although they are XY (or XX) by chromosome they don't feel they are male (or female). And surprise, they are not - they are both!

About the original question:
I love the person, a combination of her looks and spirit, as a whole for what she is when I meet her. If I found out she was a post-op transgender that would probably startle me at first, but really nothing has changed, has it? She's still the person with whom I fell in love, with the same looks and spirit as before.

(Ok the question is academic, as I'm happily married and I know that my wife always was a woman :) - still, it's the principle of the question)

Guess what, they are still a man. It doesn't matter what their personality seems to be, they are still a man. They may identify with woman, but they are a man. The body wins, the genes wins. It's not your body that's the mistake, it's your mind!

I suppose you're opposed to surgery to correct other deformities as well?


Now, an XY female is just that, an XY female. They aren't a girl by the best definition (which would be an XX individual). They are a "girl" because that is the closest thing to call them.

How is it particularily different if they're an XY female born with a vagina and an XY female born with a penis? The mind still knows it's supposed to be a woman.


Secondly, if you know a transexual whom is <b>pretending</b> to be a gender different than they are, they are in effect lying to you. Their genes say what they are, not what their brain mistakenly tells them.

...

Frankly put, the problem with transexuals isn't in their body, it's in their mind. They were born with what their genes said they were supposed to have. Now, the fact their genes screwed up something in their brain to give them the mistaken impression they were supposed to be a different gender doesn't mean a thing. The genetic mistake isn't the body, it's the mind.

Who are you to say where the mistakeis made? Luckily science can correct their plumbing, wheras so far we've been unable to force people to believe they were born with the right parts. This would suggest (although not prove) that the mistake is physical, not mental.

If you were born with a huge facial deformity, with a genetic cause, would you be mistaken to have it removed? After all, it's in your genes to be deformed. You must have mental problems wanting to get rid of it.

Nope i find it sick.
I believe these people should tell the truth straight up.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?


Ok...

Youre asking, if us straight men, would be willing to have a relationship with a transsexual, on the condition that we love her?

Bit of a loaded question, isnt it?

Your question makes the pretense that I could fall in love with a post-operative tranny.

So...if I was capable of falling in love with one...of course, I would.

The only correct answer to this question is yes, becuase its already assumed your in love with her/him/whatever.

Ok...

Youre asking, if us straight men, would be willing to have a relationship with a transsexual, on the condition that we love her?

Bit of a loaded question, isnt it?

Your question makes the pretense that I could fall in love with a post-operative tranny.

So...if I was capable of falling in love with one...of course, I would.

The only correct answer to this question is yes, becuase its already assumed your in love with her/him/whatever.

Assuming that you thought she had always been a woman when you met her and that she told you the truth only when it became obvious that you had feelings for each other, I think the question is justified.

And in the question states "willing to consider". People who just say "no" are damn smallminded

Problem is...she's not really a "her". Most guys would consider anyone who is genetically XY to always be a male, no matter what. It's very unlikely that a straight man would knowingly start a relationship with a transsexual. Compound that with social stigmas, and for many men the desire to have children someday, and I can imagine the difficulties a transsexual person would have in trying to find a partner.

No operation can change your genetics, unfortunately.

this is it for me. If the person was born a man, but was able to become a women genetically then in theory i would not mind. I say in theory because the situation has not come up, so who knows....

this is it for me. If the person was born a man, but was able to become a women genetically then in theory i would not mind. I say in theory because the situation has not come up, so who knows....

How would you know about her GENES??? And how could they make any difference?

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?

I suppose that if you really love anyone nothing really matters. As long as the person was up front about it. If it is one of those "find out after months of dating" things, then no, because the relationship was based on a lie.

In all honesty? I'd consider it.
The truth is that there are indeed women who have the brain structure of men and men who have the brain structure of women, but I don't think I'd actually be capable of falling in love with one and even if I was it couldn't ever REALLY go anywhere simply because one day I hope to have a family.
But this does have an interesting flipside, would a gay man? or would a gay woman? what defines gender if it may be manipulated so easily? is it chromosomes then? but we know there are XX men and XY women...so what is it then?

How would you know about her GENES??? And how could they make any difference?
Being able to have children would make a difference to many people.

Being able to have children would make a difference to many people.

Right, we've been through this. It seems like an awful lot of the guys on this forum would dump their girlfriends or wifes if it turned out she wasn't fertile... :rolleyes:

How would you know about her GENES??? And how could they make any difference?

How would i know they are a transexual?
The original post asks if i would enter a relationship with a transexual.

If you point at a women and tell me she is infact a he. then no, no relationship for me.
If i fall inlove with someone, never been so happy, etc.. and find out she was a he. Then i don't know, never been in the situation.
If i met someone and they told me "oh i'm a women now (can have children, as periods, etc), but was born a man" then i don't think i'd be too bothered.

How would i know they are a transexual?
The original post asks if i would enter a relationship with a transexual.

If you point at a women and tell me she is infact a he. then no, no relationship for me.
If i fall inlove with someone, never been so happy, etc.. and find out she was a he. Then i don't know, never been in the situation.
If i met someone and they told me "oh i'm a women now (can have children, as periods, etc), but was born a man" then i don't think i'd be too bothered.

Interesting... would it in any way help to think of her as a woman who simply lost the ability to reproduce or to menstruate?

Right, we've been through this. It seems like an awful lot of the guys on this forum would dump their girlfriends or wifes if it turned out she wasn't fertile... :rolleyes:
You asked how genes could make a difference.

The children bit is not the only part - I think it is unreasonable to expect someone to be willing to go against their sexual preferences and to hold it against them if they have different sexual preferences to what you deem acceptable (within the bounds of mutually consenting adults who are able to give informed consent).

You asked how genes could make a difference.

The children bit is not the only part - I think it is unreasonable to expect someone to be willing to go against their sexual preferences and to hold it against them if they have different sexual preferences to what you deem acceptable (within the bounds of mutually consenting adults who are able to give informed consent).

What I fail to understand is - after the operation, she will be a woman. She won't be able to have children, but that is all. Everything else will be female.
She will look and feel female, she will act female, she will be female.
I can understand that straight people aren't attrackted to their own gender. However, a transsexual after having had the operation is stricly speaking not male any more. Unless of course you fall in love with somebody's genes...
So this discussion has less to do with gender preferences as rather role prejudices... at least that is the impression that I'm getting here.

Interesting... would it in any way help to think of her as a woman who simply lost the ability to reproduce or to menstruate?

i don't know.

What about if i have a male friend and get on really well with him, become very good friends, bond, etc.. and find out he was born a she? Would i be willing to be in a relationship with him/her? Would it make a difference that she's now a he? (i'm straight by the way) I mean genetically he's still a she!

Unfortunately love might be blind but most people are not

i don't know.

What about if i have a male friend and get on really well with him, become very good friends, bond, etc.. and find out he was born a she? Would i be willing to be in a relationship with him/her? Would it make a difference that she's now a he? (i'm straight by the way) I mean genetically he's still a she!

Unfortunately love might be blind but most people are not

What you are saying is that, as long as you don't know, you wouldn't have any problems with it, but the knowledge would disturb you?

Interesting... would it in any way help to think of her as a woman who simply lost the ability to reproduce or to menstruate?

Might be a slilly example but let's see.

If someone told you they'd been to the top of mount everest, you'd be very impressed. Because of the assumptions of a difficult and perilous climb, the time effort and preparation. If i found out they'd taken a helicopter to the top, then i'd not view it the same.

probably a really bad example... :confused:

Might be a slilly example but let's see.

If someone told you they'd been to the top of mount everest, you'd be very impressed. Because of the assumptions of a difficult and perilous climb, the time effort and preparation. If i found out they'd taken a helicopter to the top, then i'd not view it the same.

probably a really bad example... :confused:

I'm trying to understand what you are trying to illustrate here... I think I would be impressed as well, although on a quite different level. And I would want to do the same, to be honest ;)

What you are saying is that, as long as you don't know, you wouldn't have any problems with it, but the knowledge would disturb you?

Not that it would disturb me, think of it more as, not my taste. When i was single, i looked for someone that fit my tastes, met someone who was not (she's blonde :eek:) and fell in love. If she told me now she was born a man, i would not care or not much, bit disapointed that i can't have kids with her, but i would not leave her for that.
Had i known she was man from the start, or could not have kids that might have prevented the relationship from starting on the right footing that has led to love.

To me there are too many shades a grey when it comes to love that you can't really say what's right and wrong.

Curious what about you?

What I fail to understand is - after the operation, she will be a woman. She won't be able to have children, but that is all. Everything else will be female.
She will look and feel female, she will act female, she will be female.
I can understand that straight people aren't attrackted to their own gender. However, a transsexual after having had the operation is stricly speaking not male any more. Unless of course you fall in love with somebody's genes...
So this discussion has less to do with gender preferences as rather role prejudices... at least that is the impression that I'm getting here.

By sexual preferences I do not mean hetro/homo/bi sexual, I mean preferences in what you look for in a partner, and for this someone has the right to be as pickey as they like as they are choosing one of the most important people in their life.

There are many women who I would not enter into a relationship with for much lesser reasons than they used to be a man.

I'm trying to understand what you are trying to illustrate here... I think I would be impressed as well, although on a quite different level. And I would want to do the same, to be honest ;)

even if they'd just taken a helicopter to the top? would you still be impressed? there is a difference for me being/doing something than imitating something

Curious what about you?

To be honest, I couldn't care less. If anything, I would find such a person more interesting because of his/her story, although that's just as superficial as the other way round, I guess.

I don't ever want kids, so that's no issue at all. You never know, I haven't been in a situation like that so far, but I think it wouldn't be much of a problem.

even if they'd just taken a helicopter to the top? would you still be impressed? there is a difference for me being/doing something than imitating something

I wouldn't really regard that as imitation, rather as a clever way of getting there, avoiding the dangers.

I wouldn't really regard that as imitation, rather as a clever way of getting there, avoiding the dangers.

oh definitely. But i would be more impressed because of their dedication

I find the whole "no, because she can't have kids" thing puzzling. What if you fall in love with a girl and she tells you that she can't have kids, ever. Would you terminate the relationship? After all you're in love with the women and not the prospect of having kids.

oh definitely. But i would be more impressed because of their dedication

I think that's just a difference in priorities... clever people impress me more than dedicated sportsmen ;)

At any point before the first sexual encounter, disclosing it would be fine. Even immediately prior to the first sexual encounter. After that would not be acceptable.

Don't think I'm sweet just yet. I'm an asshole, I just don't care what you do with your own body.

^this guy speakesh my mind.I second his words.

I think that's just a difference in priorities... clever people impress me more than dedicated sportsmen ;)

and cheating can show more intelligence than memorizing notes.
it all depends on what your looking at

and cheating can show more intelligence than memorizing notes.
it all depends on what your looking at

:lol: "I like copying from the girl next to me,I get a new insights every time I do ;-P"

I think this is another problem we are facing here; male stereotypes. In the media today men are being protrayed as weak minded horny bastards(for lack of a better word). I know that I and many other men out there have standards when it comes to women. I DO NOT DO EVERYTHING THAT HAS TWO LEGS! AND THAT INCLUDES TRANSSEXUAL WOMEN!

The media? Try ever second heterosexual guy I meet.

errr... you'll be surprised, There is a Talk show called Maury... Every now and then, they hold a Mr or Miss contest where they have several cross dressers and women come out and parade infront of the studio audience and they have to guess, Mr or Miss... and.... well... let's just say, no one has yet gotten a Hundred Percent.

So to answer your question, there are some that do look like that.
I rather think you missed my point.

And cross dressers are very different from transexuals.

But the question was about relationships and ,by implication, sexual preference, in my view.True. First of all, we'll assume that we agree on the difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference, and that preference is more specific than orientation. Preference says that you might prefer redheads over brunettes (to use Keruvalia's example.) So I could see it if someone made the argument: "No, I wouldn't consider such a thing because I think male-to-female transsexuals are mannish looking, and I'm not attracted to women who are mannish looking." That would make sense, it means you prefer women who are more feminine looking. And there are many male-to-female transsexuals who are mannish looking. But there are many who are not. So you see, it's difficult for someone like me to comprehend the idea of how a male-to-female transsexual might fit the ideal you have of how a woman should look (I don't know about personality, but for the sake of argument we'll assume that the MtF transsexual also fits your ideal of personality.) but have the disclosure of trannsexuality be a dealbreaker. If it is in fact, a dealbreaker, then there is something other than sexual preference involved, perhaps preference of wanting to have a relationship that's approved by society.

1. i don't hate gays. 2. i'm not judging anyone. While it may be true that you don't hate gays, calling gays and/or transsexuals "disgusting" (such as you did in post #48) is certainly an example of judging someone.

i would like to point out that there is no such thing as being gay or being born 'in the body of the opposite sex'. come on. the only reason these people have these feelings is because society has assigned certain tendencies to a certain sex. if a man is overly feminine they are considered gay.Really? Many (I'd even venture to say most) masculine gay men like other masculine gay men. Doesn't this kind of invalidate this argument?

[COLOR=Green][FONT=Comic Sans MS]no, it makes him 'bisexual'.No, it doesn't. I could tell you about the Kinsey scale which goes from 0-6 which are the extremes and how very few people are on the extremes and how someone who is a 1 or 5 which is near the extreme (but isn't quite) isn't bisexual, and elaborate on that point as well as others, but I doubt you're interested.

Guess what, they are still a man. It doesn't matter what their personality seems to be, they are still a man. They may identify with woman, but they are a man. The body wins, the genes wins. It's not your body that's the mistake, it's your mind!

Now, an XY female is just that, an XY female. They aren't a girl by the best definition (which would be an XX individual). They are a "girl" because that is the closest thing to call them.Hm. Well, I highly doubt that someone would say "I don't especially like your body or your mind, but I LOVE your chromosomes. Will you marry me?" Or something to that effect.

Being a sort-of bi-sexual male who has no desire to ever have children I guess I'm not really the target audience for this thread... but I'll weigh in anyway. :)

Sure I'd enter into a relationship with a trans gendered woman. I'd also be happy to enter into a relationship with a pre-op girl. As with any relationship, we'd both have to be comfortable with each others sexual tastes... but personally her views on polyamoury would be more of a deal breaker then her birth sex.

F*ck no! Sorry, trannys, I am not available. I'm only available to true women that are shorter or the same height as me.

F*ck no! Sorry, trannys, I am not available. I'm only available to true women that are shorter or the same height as me.
Bit cocky much?

F*ck no! Sorry, trannys, I am not available.
What makes you think a "tranny" would be interested in you?



Why do many straight males automatically assume all homosexuals/transexuals must be attracted to them and therefore are something to be feared?

Why do many straight males automatically assume all homosexuals/transexuals must be attracted to them and therefore are something to be feared?

In my experience, every gay guy/transsexual I've personally met seems to have been. I've worked with several and they've been waaaaaaaay too friendly. Toward me. Specifically. To the point where co-workers think it's blatant.

It's probably not true of all of them, but certainly I've been hit on by every gay man I've known. I must jam their gay-dar or something. :confused:

In my experience, every gay guy/transsexual I've personally met seems to have been. I've worked with several and they've been waaaaaaaay too friendly. Toward me. Specifically. To the point where co-workers think it's blatant.

It's probably not true of all of them, but certainly I've been hit on by every gay man I've known. I must jam their gay-dar or something. :confused:

Does it occur to you that maybe you only knew they were gay because of the way they act, and that you never noticed all the other gays you encountered because they didn't stand out?

It's probably not true of all of them, but certainly I've been hit on by every gay man I've known. I must jam their gay-dar or something. :confused:Most likely. Either that, or you frequent places where gay men are likely to feel comfortable in expressing themselves, and therefore do.

Would you be willing to consider entering into a relationship with a post operative transsexual if you really love her?
Post op? If "she" looks completely female and there's no little detail that makes me think I'm screwing a guy I might consider it.

Like was said earlier...I'm a Christian, so I only date Christian girls...you may think that's discrimination, but it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have a meaningful realtionship with a non-Christian. if you can find a transgendered Christian, then I would, if I loved her, and she was honest about it, enter said relationship. But you can't find a transgendered Christian.

Like was said earlier...I'm a Christian, so I only date Christian girls...you may think that's discrimination, but it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have a meaningful realtionship with a non-Christian. if you can find a transgendered Christian, then I would, if I loved her, and she was honest about it, enter said relationship. But you can't find a transgendered Christian.
I'm sure you could find one if you bothered to look.