NationStates Jolt Archive

With the 4th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks upon us there is much talk about Islamic ectremists. As a matter of fact, there is very little talk about the domestic terrorists that have plagued our country for generations. The American government, specifically the Bush administration has done a relativey good job at keeping our focus and fears generated towards those factions outside our borders that would do us harm. With the exception of an atrocious act in 2003, where a college kid vandalized a bunch of SUV's and associated himself the Earth Liberation Front, there has not been much reporting on acts commited by American extremist groups. I wonder if this is a deliberate attempt to not associate these groups with foreign terrorists to keep America's attention "over there."(Iraq) I have compiled a list of known extremists here in the States that have no ties to Islamic extremism that I know of. Can you add to it? Also, for those of you that do not live in the US, please list known extremists that terrorize your countries and DO NOT HAVE ISLAMIC TIES. that you know of.

Here is my list

African National Prison Organization (ANPO). An arm of the African Peoples Socialist Party.

Animal Liberation Front--- operate similar to PETA.

Army of God---far right-wing extremists associated with kidnapping abortionists and applauding the beheadings of homosexuals in Saudi Arabia.

Aryan Nation--- far right-wing white supremacist group.

Black Block--- Group within a group of left-wing protesters, usually anarchist-aligned, situationists, communists and other radical far left groups.

Earth Liberation Front (ELF)---special interest extremism...which seek to resolve specific issues, rather than affect widespread political change. Their preferred method...ecotage they call it eco-defense.

Greenpeace. Principally environmental-use extremists.

Ku Klux Klan (KKK)--- Reorganized and relocated several arms of its group in 1989

Macheteros--- Puerto Rican nationalists that run clandestine cells throughout the United States and campaign for and support the independence of Puerto Rico from what they characterize as United States colonial rule.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA)---. Very public-relations oriented though, arson, property destruction, burglary, and theft are acceptable crimes when used for the animal cause." (Alex Pacheco, director of PETA at the time, and its co-founder, in 1989)

Skinheads --- Groups consists of both racist and anti-racist factions...easily confused with the Ska music genre with the same name.

SS Action Group--- Principally anti-Semitic

World Church of the Creator, now known as The Creativity Movement---a racist, anti-Semitic, and white-supremacist organization which advocates a "White Religion" called Creativity.The deny the Holocaust, embrace racial neo-eugenics and improvement through human genetic engineering.

Various Satanic Cults--- Associated with attempted bombing of churches and kidnapping, and animal sacrifices, tombstone vandalism, and miscellaneous actions.

Republicans .... uh oh ... what's that noise? .... brb .............

Greenpeace? I do recall a bomb but that was the French bombing them...

You missed the IRA (and probably some counter-group that never bombed england)

Republicans .... uh oh ... what's that noise? .... brb .............

:eek:


It's those same Repubs who were afraid of Bill Clinton and his black UN helicopters/gulags in Idaho! (sadly, I am serious. They believed these things):rolleyes:

pinkies and liberals. Heck one liberal committed a terrorist act by leaving a poor woman and her sweating baby on the highway with a broken down car.....terrorist

Why do I have the worst feeling that this will devolve into a Bush-Antibush debate?

Greenpeace? I do recall a bomb but that was the French bombing them...

You missed the IRA (and probably some counter-group that never bombed england)

I'm not claiming that any on that list are terrorists, I claim that they are viewed as extremist. I didn't list the IRA because I was hoping that since this is an international forum, I would focus on the US extremists some of you that reside ouside the US could list the groups that you know of.

Greenpeace? I do recall a bomb but that was the French bombing them...

You missed the IRA (and probably some counter-group that never bombed england)Huh? is right. Attac is a bit more extreme than Greenpeace and they don't seem to have made it on the list...

Black Block--- Group within a group of left-wing protesters, usually anarchist-aligned, situationists, communists and other radical far left groups.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the black block: it is not a group it is a tactic.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the black block: it is not a group it is a tactic.

Explain more please. I understand that though Black Block groups are not an organized group with a specific agenda, they tend to form in left-wing protests and are identified by their black garb and face coverings, and yes use deliberate tactics to stand out such as vandalism, street-fighting, and such. Feel free to clue me in on more.

*waits to see what Dobbs posts*

Huh? is right. Attac is a bit more extreme than Greenpeace and they don't seem to have made it on the list...

This is by no means a conclusive list, but please explain who or what ATTAC is and how are they extreme.

Explain more please. I understand that though Black Block groups are not an organized group with a specific agenda, they tend to form in left-wing protests and are identified by their black garb and face coverings, and yes use deliberate tactics to stand out such as vandalism, street-fighting, and such. Feel free to clue me in on more.

The point is that forming a black block is a tactic in a protest, in much the same way that staging a sit-down protest or a silent vigil is, not an organisation or a widespread group which believes in a common goal, this you seem to have understood, but declaring that they are terrorists on this basis is sadly mistaken - otherwise you must label every rioter everywhere as a terrorist.

Skinheads (SKA)

Why the '(SKA)' here?

This is by no means a conclusive list, but please explain who or what ATTAC is and how are they extreme.ATTAC is extreme, somewhat, but I wouldn't rate them as terrorists. Which is why I feel that Greenpeace shouldn't be on the list.
ATTAC is basically alter-Globalization. They feel the things been fucked up and that it should be done differently. It's rather loose though, since you basically form your own group and register to be part of ATTAC if you follow their basic guidelines, so it's difficult to judge ATTAC as a whole.

The point is that forming a black block is a tactic in a protest, in much the same way that staging a sit-down protest or a silent vigil is, not an organisation or a widespread group which believes in a common goal, this you seem to have understood, but declaring that they are terrorists on this basis is sadly mistaken - otherwise you must label every rioter everywhere as a terrorist.



Why the '(SKA)' here?

The groups that I have listed are groups that are generally extreme in their views, politically and socially. If they shouldn't be on this list, explain why.

Why do I have the worst feeling that this will devolve into a Bush-Antibush debate?

Because everything on these damned forums do...

It could be something about fruit, and somehow Bush will get involved.

Feh, you left out judicial activists. Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer, Stevens, you bastards are all on my terror list.
Previous terrorist action: The obvious attack on our right to private property, and the 5th amendment - Kelo v. New London

Because everything on these damned forums do...

It could be something about fruit, and somehow Bush will get involved.

Probably right, but more specifically, the Bush administration was mentioned in the original post and questioned as to wether anyone believes there is a deliberate attempt to keep our focus of the war on terrorism on the battle grounds of Iraq and less on domestic terrorism and extremism.

The groups that I have listed are groups that are generally extreme in their views, politically and socially. If they shouldn't be on this list, explain why.
Ska is a music genre. It's not a subculture or extremist group.

Listing skinheads as extremists is a bit extreme if you ask me. I'm sure you're thinking about militant SHARPs and their counterpart, militant neo-nazi boneheads. But those two are fringe groups.
You might as well put Christians & Muslims on the list, since those groups have extremists too.
Oh, and don't forget to put the police & punk rockers on the list as well. And liberals. Oh, and conservatives... And everyones grandmothers.

Ska is a music genre. It's not a subculture or extremist group.

Are you in America? Because here, Skinheads have been associated and targeted as a racist hate group with extreme views of segregation at the least towards minorities, Jew's and Catholics.

Are you in America? Because here, Skinheads have been associated and targeted as a racist hate group with extreme views of segregation at the least towards minorities, Jew's and Catholics.Ska is a type of music.
Skinheads are generally racist, however there is SkAR out there, which is Skins against Racism. Not all skins are racists...

Are you in America? Because here, Skinheads have been associated and targeted as a racist hate group with extreme views of segregation at the least towards minorities, Jew's and Catholics.
Yes, Skinheads are a racist hate group and i'm assuming SKA is an abbreviation for them or something. The word Ska, though, is also a music genre having nothing to do with hate or Skinheads.

Republicans .... uh oh ... what's that noise? .... brb .............
Don't forget the Dems .... especially if you work in an aspirin factory and you need to distract press attention from certain - indiscretions. :D

Probably right, but more specifically, the Bush administration was mentioned in the original post and questioned as to wether anyone believes there is a deliberate attempt to keep our focus of the war on terrorism on the battle grounds of Iraq and less on domestic terrorism and extremism.

Oh.

................

Right then.
Nothing to see here! Move along...

Yes, Skinheads are a racist hate group and i'm assuming SKA is an abbreviation for them or something. The word Ska, though, is also a music genre having nothing to do with hate or Skinheads.

Thanks for clarifying, I was totaly unaware of the Ska music genre.

Yes, Skinheads are a racist hate group and i'm assuming SKA is an abbreviation for them or something. The word Ska, though, is also a music genre having nothing to do with hate or Skinheads.

Well I hate Ska, so I think it does have something to do with hate...

Why do I have the worst feeling that this will devolve into a Bush-Antibush debate?
It ALWAYS does around here. :headbang:

Wow, a thread on here worth reading.......

Yes, Skinheads are a racist hate group and i'm assuming SKA is an abbreviation for them or something. The word Ska, though, is also a music genre having nothing to do with hate or Skinheads.

If skinheads are a racist hate group, then how did their particular youth culture evolve out of Black Jamaican culture? Certainly there are racist skinheads, but they are greatly the minority and are not considered to be 'real' skinheads by the mainstream.

The groups that I have listed are groups that are generally extreme in their views, politically and socially. If they shouldn't be on this list, explain why.

I have compiled a list of known extremists here in the States that have no ties to Islamic extremism that I know of. Can you add to it? Also, for those of you that do not live in the US, please list known extremists that terrorize your countries and DO NOT HAVE ISLAMIC TIES.

You have implied that those who use the tactic of the black block terrorise your country. Do they? No. Thus, should they be on the list? No.

Skinheads are generally racist, however there is SkAR out there, which is Skins against Racism. Not all skins are racists...

The claim that skinheads are generally racist is a false on in my experience: a tiny proportion of those I have met or encountered are racist, and they exist apart from the main traditions of skinhead culture.

If skinheads are a racist hate group, then how did their particular youth culture evolve out of Black Jamaican culture? Certainly there are racist skinheads, but they are greatly the minority and are not considered to be 'real' skinheads by the mainstream.

I guess it depends on where you live because there seems to be several skinhead factions out there. Here is what I could find:Anarcho-skinheads are the anarchist skinheads. They are sympathetic to the anti-fascism and militant working class stance. There are many anarcho-skinheads who are not in any crew/organization, some who are involved with explicitly anarchist crews like ASAP - Anarchist Skins and Punks - in the USA and FASH - Federacion Anarco-Skinhead - in Spain and parts of Latin America, and some who are just with non political or other kinds of crews - the Baldies were a crew in Minneapolis with anarchist members, some are in SHARP - Red and Anarchist Skinheads' chapters, and all sorts of different crews.

You have implied that those who use the tactic of the black block terrorise your country. Do they? No. Thus, should they be on the list? No.
Yes they do. According to the following page, they popped up on the international radar during the WTO riots in Seattle:

http://www.infoshop.org/blackbloc_faq.html

If you read more of the FAQ, you will also see the tactic supports violence, property destruction, and, most disturbingly, the wearing of masks (KKK similarities, anyone?).

If you read more of the FAQ, you will also see the tactic supports violence, property destruction, and, most disturbingly, the wearing of masks (KKK similarities, anyone?).

The use of violence, property destruction and wearing masks is not the same thing as terrorism.

I fail to see why you see the wearing of masks as particularly disturbing - the difficulty of identifying any particular member of a black block is one of its strengths, and acts so as to neutralise attempts by police snatch squads to separate 'ringleaders' or 'troublemakers' from the rest of the group.

I'll say again: if you label those who adopt the black block tactic as terrorists, then you must also label all rioters as terrorists.

After the disaster in the south we now can add FEMA to the list.

With the 4th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks upon us there is much talk about Islamic ectremists. As a matter of fact, there is very little talk about the domestic terrorists that have plagued our country for generations. The American government, specifically the Bush administration has done a relativey good job at keeping our focus and fears generated towards those factions outside our borders that would do us harm. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT BUSH AND HIS ADMENISTRATION DO NOT CONTROL MEDIA AS MUCH AS ONE WOULD LIKE TO THINK BUT REALITY THEY DONT. THE THING ABOUT MEDIA THAT I HAVE LEARNED IS THEY SHOW PEOPLE ONLY WHAT THE PEOPLE DONT WANT TO SEE. YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT THE HEROS OF THE WAR OR WHATS GOING ON HERE IT IS ALL JUST BECAUSE THE MEDIA IS A FROT FOR PEOPLE TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT WITH OUT GETTING REPREMANDED. AND IF YOU PAY ATTEION THE MOST YOU HEAR OUT OF THE MEADIA IS MOSTLY SLATED TO ONE SIDE THE DEMOCRATS BUT IF YOU YOU LOOK HARD ENOUGH YOU WILL FIND THE TRUTH I AM NOT SAYING RUPUBLICANS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT OR THE DEMOCRATS ARE ALWAYS WRONG BUT THAT THE MEADIA SHOULD TELL WHOLE TRUTHS AND NOT HALF ONES THAT WAY THE COUNTRY COULD BE INFORMED OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENS OVER SEAS AND HERE WHERE WE LIVE. YOU KNOW THERE ARE SOME PRETTY EXTREM PEACE GRUOPS OUT THERE DONT KNOW NAMES BUT THEY SHOULD KNOW THAT BEFORE THEY PROTEST THEY WOULD NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT IF NOT FOR TH MEN AND WOMEN IN THE ARMED SERVICES OR IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN WAR.

The use of violence, property destruction and wearing masks is not the same thing as terrorism.

I fail to see why you see the wearing of masks as particularly disturbing - the difficulty of identifying any particular member of a black block is one of its strengths, and acts so as to neutralise attempts by police snatch squads to separate 'ringleaders' or 'troublemakers' from the rest of the group.

I'll say again: if you label those who adopt the black block tactic as terrorists, then you must also label all rioters as terrorists.
The original post said "please list extremists who terrorize your country", not necessarily just terrorist groups, as the original list demonstrates.

And I don't see a whole lot of difference between rioters that engage in violence and property destruction, sometimes resulting in deaths, and terrorists.

The original post said "please list extremists who terrorize your country", not necessarily just terrorist groups, as the original list demonstrates.

Ah, but it did so in the context of a title which read 'Terrorist Alert!!!', not 'Extremist Alert!!!'.

And I don't see a whole lot of difference between rioters that engage in violence and property destruction, sometimes resulting in deaths, and terrorists.

You say that you don't see a 'whole lot' of difference between the two, but you don't conflate the two, then?

Various Satanic Cults--- Associated with attempted bombing of churches and kidnapping, and animal sacrifices, tombstone vandalism, and miscellaneous actions.

You do realize that a "Satanic Cult" can be anything from the Church of Satan to a group of Neo Pagans to the church down the street that you happen to hate, right?

Really, I have to call bullshit on this one. Most church bombings in American history were by Christians (there's an irony for you), and most tombstone vandalism has nothing to do with religion and the few that do are usually by Christians targetting members of other religions.

Oh, and the animal sacrifices? Those typically are more likely of more organized religions.

Ah, but it did so in the context of a title which read 'Terrorist Alert!!!', not 'Extremist Alert!!!'.



You say that you don't see a 'whole lot' of difference between the two, but you don't conflate the two, then?
But his list of groups included extreme organizations that many would say are not terrorist groups. I think the title was just a thread attention getter.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'd say they are the same.

Most people take terrorism to be any group that deliberately targets civilians and symbolic properties to forward their own particular agenda.

Rioters, I grant you, mostly do harm to or kill police, which you may not consider civilian, but often others are hurt or killed in the process. Rioters are less specific in their property damage.

Maybe I'd just call rioters terrorist lite.

You have implied that those who use the tactic of the black block terrorise your country. Do they? No. Thus, should they be on the list? No.

Yes, I have loosely associated extremism with terrorism. You keep calling black bloc a tactic, though when a group of anarchists unite, which is a paradox to the entire idea of anarchy, they identify themselves as a black bloc. As such, they will become the focus during a protest. They have specif tactics wich are usually contrary to the protest itself, further making them stand out as a united group. You ask if they terrorize. The use of Molotov coctails, targeted vandalism, theft, physical violence, etc... As a group that calls themself a Black Bloc, at least here in America, yes they should remain on my list.

*taps foot impatiently*

Where the Hell is Dobbsworld?

You do realize that a "Satanic Cult" can be anything from the Church of Satan to a group of Neo Pagans to the church down the street that you happen to hate, right?

Really, I have to call bullshit on this one. Most church bombings in American history were by Christians (there's an irony for you), and most tombstone vandalism has nothing to do with religion and the few that do are usually by Christians targetting members of other religions.

By the use of the word CULT, it should imply that they are extremist in view and have proven to be associated with the disturbances I listed. I purposely left off the Christian extremists not because I believe they should be exluded from the list, but because there are just too many to list. At last count, there were over 500 associations to the Council for National Policy. They may not all be radical extremists but they are all far right-wingers.

You keep calling black bloc a tactic, though when a group of anarchists unite, which is a paradox to the entire idea of anarchy, they identify themselves as a black bloc.

Anarchism is not opposed to unity: it is heirarchy that it opposes.

I didn't list the IRA because I was hoping that since this is an international forum, I would focus on the US extremists some of you that reside ouside the US could list the groups that you know of.

Some might say that the IRA would be relevant to the list you made, because of the support they received from American groups through financial means.

Putting aside the question of whether they were freedom fighters or terrorists, which you have done in reference in all the groups you have listed, you may as well add the IRA.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT BUSH AND HIS ADMENISTRATION DO NOT CONTROL MEDIA AS MUCH AS ONE WOULD LIKE TO THINK BUT REALITY THEY DONT. THE THING ABOUT MEDIA THAT I HAVE LEARNED IS THEY SHOW PEOPLE ONLY WHAT THE PEOPLE DONT WANT TO SEE. YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT THE HEROS OF THE WAR OR WHATS GOING ON HERE IT IS ALL JUST BECAUSE THE MEDIA IS A FROT FOR PEOPLE TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT WITH OUT GETTING REPREMANDED. AND IF YOU PAY ATTEION THE MOST YOU HEAR OUT OF THE MEADIA IS MOSTLY SLATED TO ONE SIDE THE DEMOCRATS BUT IF YOU YOU LOOK HARD ENOUGH YOU WILL FIND THE TRUTH I AM NOT SAYING RUPUBLICANS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT OR THE DEMOCRATS ARE ALWAYS WRONG BUT THAT THE MEADIA SHOULD TELL WHOLE TRUTHS AND NOT HALF ONES THAT WAY THE COUNTRY COULD BE INFORMED OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENS OVER SEAS AND HERE WHERE WE LIVE. YOU KNOW THERE ARE SOME PRETTY EXTREM PEACE GRUOPS OUT THERE DONT KNOW NAMES BUT THEY SHOULD KNOW THAT BEFORE THEY PROTEST THEY WOULD NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT IF NOT FOR TH MEN AND WOMEN IN THE ARMED SERVICES OR IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN WAR.

Please turn off your CAPS LOCK in the future. Thank you.

This has been a South Islands Public Service Announcement

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE

...that there is such a practise called taking your caps off perhaps?


AND IF YOU PAY ATTEION THE MOST YOU HEAR OUT OF THE MEADIA IS MOSTLY SLATED TO ONE SIDE THE DEMOCRATS

If you pay attention, you would know that this is not the case.

If you pay attention, you would remember to take your caps off too.

This is a good debate. I guess you can call it a "debate." I'm just glad that no one has called each other vulgar names yet.

Army of God---far right-wing extremists associated with kidnapping abortionists and applauding the beheadings of homosexuals in Saudi Arabia.


Does anyone else see the irony in this?

========
Side Note
========
So, I go to a Baptist College here in North Carolina. I'm not a big religious kind of guy, but I attended one of the church services. I get the feeling that they preach "If you're not with us, you're against us." That makes me think badly of "Christians."

I dunno if anyone has already pointed this out, but black bloc is a TACTIC, not a group or organization.

I dunno if anyone has already pointed this out, but black bloc is a TACTIC, not a group or organization.

Only a dozen or two times :rolleyes:

today we the nation of unistand will support any law in any nation that will ban all terr activity

Skinheads (SKA)?

Man, I thought the Patriot Act went pretty far, but now you want to wipe out a haircut and an entire genre of music?:p

Skinheads (SKA)?

Man, I thought the Patriot Act went pretty far, but now you want to wipe out a haircut and an entire genre of music?:p

It has been stated several times now that there are many factions of Skinheads. I am refering to the hate group, neo-nazi SKA Skinheads. Though I don't know much about the Ska music genre, I would think that if they didn't want any associations with the former group, they would have chosen a different name. Read this for more. (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/skinhead-international/skins-united-states.html)

It has been stated several times now that there are many factions of Skinheads. I am refering to the hate group, neo-nazi SKA Skinheads. Though I don't know much about the Ska music genre, I would think that if they didn't want any associations with the former group, they would have chosen a different name. Read this for more. (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/skinhead-international/skins-united-states.html)

That web page contains the letters 'ska' only once, and there they appear as part of the word 'Nebraska'. I have yet to see any evidence that there is actually a neo-nazi group called 'SKA'.

That web page contains the letters 'ska' only once, and there they appear as part of the word 'Nebraska'. I have yet to see any evidence that there is actually a neo-nazi group called 'SKA'.

Skinhead- A member of any of various groups of white British or American youths who shave their heads, gather at rock concerts and sports events, and sometimes participate in white-supremacist and anti-immigrant activities.

Neo-Nazi- A member of a fringe group inspired by Adolf Hitler's Nazis.

The skinhead movement started in the late 1960's in England out of the MOD (Modernist ) movement. They were mostly working class youth but came from all economical backgrounds. One reason for their shaved heads was so their hair would not get caught in the machinery at the factories where most of them worked. Steel-toed boots were worn to protect their feet. At this time they were not a racist group.

During this time Britain started to receive immigrants from Jamaica and Pakistan. Jamaicans were also early skinheads. The Jamaicans used to work on the docks with some of the skinheads, and that's how they became friends. These two groups used to go around "Paki-bashing", which was beating up Pakistanis.

There were a lot of music clubs around England in those days. Some clubs were owned by Jamaicans that played reggae and soul music. Some whites did not want blacks in their neighborhoods, so they decided to make a new type of music called "ska". The ones that did not like ska went and made a new type of music called "oi". Oi music had racial lyrics and made skinheads become really violent. The British National Party, a neo-nazi group, started to back the bands and exploiting them to recruit new members. This is when the group became a hate group.

So there is the clarification.. I have edited the original post so as to not confues the SKa and the Oi. Though, I'm sure that anyone that is not familiar with the Ska music will easily confues them with the hate-mongers that derived from the same source.

Skinhead- A member of any of various groups of white British or American youths who shave their heads, gather at rock concerts and sports events, and sometimes participate in white-supremacist and anti-immigrant activities.

Neo-Nazi- A member of a fringe group inspired by Adolf Hitler's Nazis.

The skinhead movement started in the late 1960's in England out of the MOD (Modernist ) movement. They were mostly working class youth but came from all economical backgrounds. One reason for their shaved heads was so their hair would not get caught in the machinery at the factories where most of them worked. Steel-toed boots were worn to protect their feet. At this time they were not a racist group.

During this time Britain started to receive immigrants from Jamaica and Pakistan. Jamaicans were also early skinheads. The Jamaicans used to work on the docks with some of the skinheads, and that's how they became friends. These two groups used to go around "Paki-bashing", which was beating up Pakistanis.

There were a lot of music clubs around England in those days. Some clubs were owned by Jamaicans that played reggae and soul music. Some whites did not want blacks in their neighborhoods, so they decided to make a new type of music called "ska". The ones that did not like ska went and made a new type of music called "oi". Oi music had racial lyrics and made skinheads become really violent. The British National Party, a neo-nazi group, started to back the bands and exploiting them to recruit new members. This is when the group became a hate group.

So there is the clarification.. I have edited the original post so as to not confues the SKa and the Oi. Though, I'm sure that anyone that is not familiar with the Ska music will easily confues them with the hate-mongers that derived from the same source.
Confusing racist music from non-racist is fairly easy. Ska is not racist. Oi is not racist. Though there are bands that are racist and play Ska or Oi. It's easy to confuse all country music with white hick racist music... yeah.

Racist Friend by The Specials
Jerry Dammers / Dick Cuthell / John Bradbury
If you have a racist friend
Now is the time, now is the time for your friendship to end

Be it your sister
Be it your brother
Be it your cousin or your, uncle or your lover

If you have a racist friend
now is the time, now is the time for your friendship to end

Be it your best friend
Or any other
Is it your husband or your father or your mother?

Tell them to change their views
Or change their friends
Now is the time, now is the time, for your friendship to end

So if you know a racist who thinks he is your friend
Now is the time, now is the time for your friendship to end

Call yourself my friend?
Now is the time to make up your mind, don't try to pretend

Be it your sister
Be it your brother
Be it your cousin or your uncle or your lover

So if you are a racist
Our friendship has got to end
And if your friends are racists don't pretend to be my friend

So if you have a racist friend
Now is the time, now is the time for our friendship to end

GOODBYE

The ones that did not like ska went and made a new type of music called "oi". Oi music had racial lyrics and made skinheads become really violent.


...except that not all (in fact only the minority) of Oi! music was of a racist nature. The main culprits of producing racist Oi! were Skrewdriver (post their reformation) and the bands that they inspired, but to balance out such trends there were a great many avowedly non-racist and quite frankly left-leaning bands. Even today, twenty something years after the birth of Oi! this remains true, and most of the racist bands that can track some kind of relation to the Oi! scene of the time now play various varieties of extreme metal rather than street punk.

...except that not all (in fact only the minority) of Oi! music was of a racist nature. The main culprits of producing racist Oi! were Skrewdriver (post their reformation) and the bands that they inspired, but to balance out such trends there were a great many avowedly non-racist and quite frankly left-leaning bands. Even today, twenty something years after the birth of Oi! this remains true, and most of the racist bands that can track some kind of relation to the Oi! scene of the time now play various varieties of extreme metal rather than street punk.

I'm glad we could finally clear up the distinctive differences between the Ska music genre and the Racist-Neo Nazi skinheads. I stand by my original post's description of skinheads: Groups consists of both racist and anti-racist factions. That said, this thread was meant to identify extremist groups that have not been gererating the attention they did prior to the 9/11 attacks. Obviously, the word Skinhead draws opposing connotations depending on which country you live in. Here in America, the word skinhead has a negative connotation and gereralized as the racist hate group. Though, I am sure there are many youngsters here that can identify with the musical genre. Also, there was no intention to identify members or sympathizers to the extremist groups listed.

Please turn off your CAPS LOCK in the future. Thank you.
This has been a South Islands Public Service Announcement

1/16th of an inch. That's all there is between Caps Lock and the letter A.

If you think Greenpeace are "extremist" then you are on the extreme opposite yourself, they are the cuddly, government friendly arm of Environmental protest groups. See also Friends of the Earth. My brothers a member for godsakes, and he's the most classic middle of the road individual there is.

...except that not all (in fact only the minority) of Oi! music was of a racist nature. The main culprits of producing racist Oi! were Skrewdriver (post their reformation) and the bands that they inspired, but to balance out such trends there were a great many avowedly non-racist and quite frankly left-leaning bands. Even today, twenty something years after the birth of Oi! this remains true, and most of the racist bands that can track some kind of relation to the Oi! scene of the time now play various varieties of extreme metal rather than street punk.

Not only post reformation Skrewdriver were non racist, but also pre a certain point (see Radio DJ Mark Radcliffe, a member of the embryonic group's memoir "Showbusiness").

However, all that being said, Oi was truly awful.

PIRA, RIRA, UVF, LVF, UDA

If you think Greenpeace are "extremist" then you are on the extreme opposite yourself, they are the cuddly, government friendly arm of Environmental protest groups. See also Friends of the Earth. My brothers a member for godsakes, and he's the most classic middle of the road individual there is.


LoL, "cuddly, government friendly." Certainly, not all Greenpeace members are extremists, but the group is known as "direct action" activists. When the coalition forces were preparing to ship needed support supplies from the coast of Spain, Greanpeace activists got in their boats and attempted to blockade the military freighters... I think putting your life in the threat of being blasted out of the water is a bit extreme... Go locate the Greenpeace book titled, Ecodefense: A Field Guide to Monkeywrenching. It provides detailed instructions showing what dedicated activists can do to wreck power lines and facilities, disable heavy equipment, trash billboards, hinder logging and not get caught. Granted, these actions are committed by the most dedicated members where the average member just donates to their $50 million slush fund or hold packards durring a protest. I believe their intentions are good but their tactics are extreme and border domestic, corporate and anti-government terrorism.

Go locate the Greenpeace book titled, Ecodefense: A Field Guide to Monkeywrenching.

Earth First!, shurely, not Greenpeace? - at least the copy I read was produced by EF.

LoL, "cuddly, government friendly." Certainly, not all Greenpeace members are extremists, but the group is known as "direct action" activists. When the coalition forces were preparing to ship needed support supplies from the coast of Spain, Greanpeace activists got in their boats and attempted to blockade the military freighters... I think putting your life in the threat of being blasted out of the water is a bit extreme... Go locate the Greenpeace book titled, Ecodefense: A Field Guide to Monkeywrenching. It provides detailed instructions showing what dedicated activists can do to wreck power lines and facilities, disable heavy equipment, trash billboards, hinder logging and not get caught. Granted, these actions are committed by the most dedicated members where the average member just donates to their $50 million slush fund or hold packards durring a protest. I believe their intentions are good but their tactics are extreme and border domestic, corporate and anti-government terrorism.

Yeah, but by that was non violent protest, so by that logic, the SNCC during
the Civil Rights era and Gandhi were "extremist"

To which i merely say "hmm"

Not only post reformation Skrewdriver were non racist, but also pre a certain point (see Radio DJ Mark Radcliffe, a member of the embryonic group's memoir "Showbusiness").

However, all that being said, Oi was truly awful.

Yeah, I read Radcliffe's book - although Donaldson may have always been a racist himself, and possibly one of the replacement guitarists during their All Skrewed Up and early singles period, they did not put those sentiments into the lyrics.

Oi music has its fair share of dross, certainly, but there are gems - take Hard Skin (http://www.householdnamerecords.co.uk/releases/haus073.php) for example.

Yeah, I read Radcliffe's book - although Donaldson may have always been a racist himself, and possibly one of the replacement guitarists during their All Skrewed Up and early singles period, they did not put those sentiments into the lyrics.

Oi music has its fair share of dross, certainly, but there are gems - take Hard Skin (http://www.householdnamerecords.co.uk/releases/haus073.php) for example.

Nah, to be honest, it never did anything for me.

How much of that was due to Gary Bushell's championing of it, however...

Earth First!, shurely, not Greenpeace? - at least the copy I read was produced by EF.

My mistake, yes it was written by Dave Foreman, founder of Earth First, but it is listed in, and endorsed, by Greenpeace Magazine, the media arm of Greenpeace.

How much of that was due to Gary Bushell's championing of it, however...

cf. Gary Bushell's Band Of The Week by The Not Sensibles.

My mistake, yes it was written by Dave Foreman, founder of Earth First, but it is listed in, and endorsed, by Greenpeace Magazine, the media arm of Greenpeace.

Either way, the vast majority of the text is concerned with non-violent action such as tree-spiking or planting certain varieties of flora which will grow through concrete.

cf. Gary Bushell's Band Of The Week by The Not Sensibles.

God the man was a vile chimp.

The Not Sensibles were more punk/new-wavey though. Their "I'm in love with Margaret Thatcher" was a glorious moment of punk dumb.

God the man was a vile chimp.

Unfortunately he still is.

Either way, the vast majority of the text is concerned with non-violent action such as tree-spiking or planting certain varieties of flora which will grow through concrete.

non-violent or not, it's a book designed to cause damage, sabotage, eco-terrorism. Anyway you look at it, private, corporate, of government property is being intentionally destroyed. Taking this type of action into your own hands, as a group, is extremism. There is a better way. Why not use their $50 million slush fund and campaign to get their own canditates in office to enact change?(rhetoric) Their actions are not geared to enact change they are geared toward results at any cost.

Unfortunately he still is.

Well, yeah, but he doesn't have the same reach any more, thank Jeebus.

If i have to read another of his little rants about how they should bring back the variety show, hosted by one of his mates like Joe Pasquale, i may very well go kill crazy with an uzi.

...so, you aren't going to list my suggestions?

non-violent or not, it's a book designed to cause damage, sabotage, eco-terrorism. Anyway you look at it, private, corporate, of government property is being intentionally destroyed. Taking this type of action into your own hands, as a group, is extremism.

Possibly extremism, but not terrorism. Anyhow, the problem with defining something as 'extremist' is that it is a relative rather than an absolute term: if the middle ground shifts, then so too does what is considered extreme.

...so, you aren't going to list my suggestions?

The original list was one for the US... correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think the UVF are operational there.

The original list was one for the US... correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think the UVF are operational there.
I thought it was a list of the suggestions...after all, the first post said if you are outside the US to say organisations in your area.

You left out Moveon.org and MS13.

...so, you aren't going to list my suggestions?

Sorry Nadkor, you listed them as I asked but can you elaborate on them. Are they still active and are they generating attention in Ireland away from the "war on terror" in Iraq?

I thought it was a list of the suggestions...after all, the first post said if you are outside the US to say organisations in your area.

Yeah, well the definitions being used here are a bit strange as well - the rioters out on our streets as I type this would all be categorised as terrorists by some here.

You left out Moveon.org and MS13.

LoL, they will cease to exist on Jan, 20th, 2009... Elaborate on MS13.

Yeah, well the definitions being used here are a bit strange as well - the rioters out on our streets as I type this would all be categorised as terrorists by some here.


Rioters, yes. Protestors, no.

Rioters, yes. Protestors, no.

Rioters are terrorists now? What nonsense.

Basically, you are using the word "terrorist" to mean "anyone who threatens the status quo".

Which is kinda how the governments of the world WANT you to use it, agreed.

Sorry Nadkor, you listed them as I asked but can you elaborate on them. Are they still active and are they generating attention in Ireland away from the "war on terror" in Iraq?
They are all still active, and the "war on terror" in Iraq is a non-issue in Northern Ireland.

PIRA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army) - Provisional IRA. Associated with Sinn Fein, one of the largest political parties in NI. One of the best armed and trained paramilitary forces in the world. Trains other terrorist groups worldwide. Responsible for a 30 year war against the UK. Bombing, shooting and intimidation are the main tactics.

RIRA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Irish_Republican_Army) - Real IRA. Splinter group from the PIRA. Responsible for the 1998 Omagh bomb. Bombing, shooting and intimidation are the main tactics.

UVF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Volunteer_Force) - Ulster Volunteer Force. Originally to fight the IRA, now mainly gangsterism and intimidation. Shooting and intimidation are the main tactics.

LVF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_Volunteer_Force) - Loyalist Volunteer Force. Splinter group from the UVF (IIRC) now mainly gangsterism and intimidation. Shooting and intimidation are the main tactics.

UDA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Association) - Ulster Defence Association. Shooting and intimidation are the main tactics.

Rioters, yes. Protestors, no.

So anyone that throws something at a member of the security forces is a terrorist?

Yeah, well the definitions being used here are a bit strange as well - the rioters out on our streets as I type this would all be categorised as terrorists by some here.
I probably wouldn't call them either, I would just say they're twats.

They are all still active, and the "war on terror" in Iraq is a non-issue in Northern Ireland.

Apart from the fact that we got baton charged by the cops when we held a sit-down protest against the invasion and some of us were then charged with 'malicious sitting'... never mind that thousands of us marched to Hillsborough to protest the war summit that Bush and Blair held there.

Rioters are terrorists now? What nonsense.

Basically, you are using the word "terrorist" to mean "anyone who threatens the status quo".

Which is kinda how the governments of the world WANT you to use it, agreed.
To be fair, in Northern Ireland terms like that generally have skewed definitions. Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4236208.stm) is a news report on the current spate of rioting.

Apart from the fact that we got baton charged by the cops when we held a sit-down protest against the invasion and some of us were thenm charged with 'malicious sitting'...

Hey, you have to watch out for those "sitters". A real threat to Laura Norder.

Apart from the fact that we got baton charged by the cops when we held a sit-down protest against the invasion and some of us were thenm charged with 'malicious sitting'...
Aye, but even then it wasn't a major political issue.

I hearby put forward for your consideration:

The PMRC.

To be fair, in Northern Ireland terms like that generally have skewed definitions. Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4236208.stm) is a news report on the current spate of rioting.

To be fair, it happens every year. If the Orange Order didn't insist on holding their insensitive and triumphalist marches through Catholic streets, then it wouldn't be an issue. I can't see how they got away with it so long, to be frank. I mean, imagine if the KKK (note, while Norn Iron has at times resembled an apartheid state, it does not anymore and i am not claiming the Orange Order are in any way as bad as the KKK) insisted on marching through Harlem because it was "their tradition".

I hearby put forward for your consideration:

The PMRC.

The JAMC used to be a real threat to life and limb, especially when the Reid brothers started fighting on stage.

To be fair, in Northern Ireland terms like that generally have skewed definitions.

Thank Ghod for the handy catch-all term 'paramilitaries'.

The JAMC used to be a real threat to life and limb, especially when the Reid brothers started fighting on stage.

I'll see your JAMC and raise you the JAMs/KLF/K Foundation.

I'll see your JAMC and raise you the JAMs/KLF/K Foundation.

You'll be getting your UB40 once i pull out my SFA :)

To be fair, it happens every year. If the Orange Order didn't insist on holding their insensitive and triumphalist marches through Catholic streets, then it wouldn't be an issue. I can't see how they got away with it so long, to be frank. I mean, imagine if the KKK (note, while Norn Iron has at times resembled an apartheid state, it does not anymore and i am not claiming the Orange Order are in any way as bad as the KKK) insisted on marching through Harlem because it was "their tradition".

the Orange Order can march whenever they want and without impediment in the Republic, which I always find to be amusing. And 40 years ago there wasn't the issue there is now, it has been created in that time by Sinn Fein (mainly). And they're hardly triumphalist, just out of date. And at the same time, it's not like it takes forever, if everybody just let everybody live happily (from both sides), the march went down the road with the band being silent, and the residents ignored it for a minute or two, then there woul be no problem at all.

It's the typical NI political issue of not being able to find a compromise. That's the real problem, not the residents, and not the marchers.

the Orange Order can march whenever they want and without impediment in the Republic, which I always find to be amusing. And 40 years ago there wasn't the issue there is now, it has been created in that time by Sinn Fein (mainly). And they're hardly triumphalist, just out of date. And at the same time, it's not like it takes forever, if everybody just let everybody live happily (from both sides), the march went down the road with the band being silent, and the residents ignored it for a minute or two, then there woul be no problem at all.

It's the typical NI political issue of not being able to find a compromise. That's the real problem, not the residents, and not the marchers.

Ok, a more apt comparison, then, would be if the mayor of Agincourt allowed a parade every year celebrating killing thousands of Frenchmen to be held by the UKIP.

Now, you can see that would ruffle the odd feather, can't you? Combine that with - yes - Sinn Fein exploiting the issue and yes, peoples inability to compromise, agreed. Also combine it with the fact that Sinn Fein started to exploit the issue when the Catholics were most definitely second class citizens in Norn Iron.

Of course, the Orange Order has survived so long because it suited those at the top. Not because they were necessarily dyed in the wool unionists. More because, when the walls start breaking down, the poor Catholic and the poor Protestant might take a look at who actually benefits from the Northern Irish state.

It's the typical NI political issue of not being able to find a compromise. That's the real problem, not the residents, and not the marchers.

To paraphrase: The real problem is neither the marchers nor the residents, but both of them?

Of course, the Orange Order has survived so long because it suited those at the top. Not because they were necessarily dyed in the wool unionists. More because, when the walls start breaking down, the poor Catholic and the poor Protestant might take a look at who actually benefits from the Northern Irish state.

The problem with applying the cui bono? principle to Northern Ireland is that nobody actually seems to be benefiting from it.

The JAMC used to be a real threat to life and limb, especially when the Reid brothers started fighting on stage.

I'll see your JAMC and raise you the JAMs/KLF/K Foundation.

You'll be getting your UB40 once i pull out my SFA :)
OH man OH man - This is gonna be one hell of a jamm!

The problem with applying the cui bono? principle to Northern Ireland is that nobody actually seems to be benefiting from it.

I'm sure that Northern Ireland has a ruling class. Every country does.

Although Lawrie Sanchez might be raised to membership of it after last Wednesday ;)

You know who's really sinister? Those terrible terrible Masons! They've even had men in the Presidency and have corrupted DC with their monuments! :D :D :D :D

I'm sure that Northern Ireland has a ruling class. Every country does.

Certainly, but their position would be much the same whether NI became part of Eire, remained part of the UK or went independent: that's how they got to be the ruling class - stubbornness and intransigence. Short of a revolution little is likely to shift them.

Ok, a more apt comparison, then, would be if the mayor of Agincourt allowed a parade every year celebrating killing thousands of Frenchmen to be held by the UKIP.
The Orange Order was originally started to defend the Protestant settlers in Armagh (I think it was Armagh), so that's not really an apt comparison either.

A more apt one would be an organisation started in Agincourt to defend the French people from the English. Over time Agincourt becomes predominantly English, but the organisation still marches.

Now, you can see that would ruffle the odd feather, can't you? Combine that with - yes - Sinn Fein exploiting the issue and yes, peoples inability to compromise, agreed. Also combine it with the fact that Sinn Fein started to exploit the issue when the Catholics were most definitely second class citizens in Norn Iron.
And that Sinn Fein actively encouraged Catholic familes to move into contentious areas in order to exasberate the problem.

Of course, the Orange Order has survived so long because it suited those at the top. Not because they were necessarily dyed in the wool unionists. More because, when the walls start breaking down, the poor Catholic and the poor Protestant might take a look at who actually benefits from the Northern Irish state.
Politicians are the only ones who benefit greatly, from what I can see.

To paraphrase: The real problem is neither the marchers nor the residents, but both of them?
Hmm...maybe not.

I would say the political parties and paramilitaries that both the marchers and the residents have become pawns of.

LoL, they will cease to exist on Jan, 20th, 2009... Elaborate on MS13.
MS 13. A ruthless bloodthirsty gang of central american illegals that engages in terrorist atrocities against Americans across the country. They are engaged in the drug and sex slave trades and are allied with Al Qaeda. They are known by law enforcement and the feds to force teen girls into prostitution. Some of the girls they coerce they tend to find at the mall.
They've committed atrocious acts of murder, rape and violence to graphic to post here.

Apart from the fact that we got baton charged by the cops when we held a sit-down protest against the invasion and some of us were then charged with 'malicious sitting'...{snip}
:cool:
You know, if I were you, I would have that ruling bronzed & framed. Then hung for all to see from my dorm / den / office / cubicle / forhead...

:cool:
You know, if I were you, I would have that ruling bronzed & framed. Then hung for all to see from my dorm / den / office / cubicle / forhead...

Apparently it is a step up from 'obstruction' - standing in a place to block tranist is classed as obstruction, but sitting or lying down so as to make your removal more difficult, while not actually resisting arrest is classed as 'malicious sitting'. Others were charged with 'obstructive sitting', the exact nature of which never became clear, to say nothing of the chap that got charged with criminal damage for getting homemade strawberry jam on a cop's riot gear.

Lest any confusion arise - I was sitting, but was not charged with anything.