NationStates Jolt Archive

Only 76,875 people are in prison in Britain, compared to about 2.2 million in the US. At the rate at which the prison population is growing, at 2000 a year, we will reach America's incarceration rate in 2165, which will be in 160 years time. We are getting there, so let's just be patient.

Only 76,875 people are in prison in Britain, compared to about 2.2 million in the US. At the rate at which the prison population is growing, at 2000 a year, we will reach America's incarceration rate in 2165, which will be in 160 years time. We are getting there, so let's just be patient.
Yes, well over half of the people imprisoned are done so for committing victimless crimes such as drug use. Honestly, why are we wasting resources on them, prison is probably an improvement.

Only 76,875 people are in prison in Britain, compared to about 2.2 million in the US. At the rate at which the prison population is growing, at 2000 a year, we will reach America's incarceration rate in 2165, which will be in 160 years time. We are getting there, so let's just be patient. Well, the answer the Tories have is "Um… build more prisons!". Prison does NOT work. The aim of prison should be threefold:

• They mustn't commit a crime again
• Must not cost too much… working to alleviate the cost
• Make sure they don't go back into crime, ie get them basic job skills.

Britain is basically the worst in Europe for things like this - teenage pregnancy, prison use, you name it. Sometimes I despair for our nation.

...victimless crimes such as drug use...

Yeah. Because drug use is victimless. Just like insurance fraud - hey, the only person paying for it is the insurance dude, right? Hey, it's not like people get shot or stabbed or beaten to death for drugs and over drugs, is it? It's not like desperate addicts steal to score, is it? Oh no. Victimless.

That claim makes me sick. You've obviously never known anyone addicted to heroin.

Look, the reason that we have more prisoners than in Europe is because we have more criminals than in Europe. It's simple. The growing underclass is going to be breeding more criminals, and so we are going to have to are going to have to put them is prison. There is no alternative to good old-fashioned retributive justice. We should focus on justice for the victims and should stop worrying about the rights of the criminals. We should also copy America's three strikes approach for serious crimes.

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.

Only 76,875 people are in prison in Britain, compared to about 2.2 million in the US. At the rate at which the prison population is growing, at 2000 a year, we will reach America's incarceration rate in 2165, which will be in 160 years time. We are getting there, so let's just be patient.
I wasn't aware it was a race to see how many people we can throw in jail.

Yeah. Because drug use is victimless. Just like insurance fraud - hey, the only person paying for it is the insurance dude, right? Hey, it's not like people get shot or stabbed or beaten to death for drugs and over drugs, is it? It's not like desperate addicts steal to score, is it? Oh no. Victimless.

That claim makes me sick. You've obviously never known anyone addicted to heroin.
If drugs were legal the gangs would collapse because there would be legitimate recourse for selling drugs. The gangs are just extensions of the black market, take the impetus of the black market away and the gangs would for the most part disappear. It would also help if cities were forced to comply with the 2nd amendment.

If drugs were legal the gangs would collapse because there would be legitimate recourse for selling drugs. The gangs are just extensions of the black market, take the impetus of the black market away and the gangs would for the most part disappear. It would also help if cities were forced to comply with the 2nd amendment.


A better way to deal with gangs, is just to kill them all.

Yes, them all.

Pull in the Millitary, and exterminate them with everything we've got.

Panzers, Tigers, Stukas, Kar98ks, MP40s, MG-42s, guys in grey uniforms, etc. etc. etc.

Only 76,875 people are in prison in Britain, compared to about 2.2 million in the US. At the rate at which the prison population is growing, at 2000 a year, we will reach America's incarceration rate in 2165, which will be in 160 years time. We are getting there, so let's just be patient.


Yeah and like you have anywhere near the population we have. :rolleyes:

Look, the reason that we have more prisoners than in Europe is because we have more criminals than in Europe. It's simple. The growing underclass is going to be breeding more criminals, and so we are going to have to are going to have to put them is prison. There is no alternative to good old-fashioned retributive justice.
You're a troll right? Surely nobody's can be this blindingly ignorant in this day and age. The 1800's ended a while ago mate.

-snip-
No, I mean for drug use alone. Of course I'd book a druggie if he committs an act of violence against somebody else!!!

You're a troll right? Surely nobody's can be this blindingly ignorant in this day and age. The 1800's ended a while ago mate.

I wouldn't discount it. :p

-To deal with drugs you deal with the sources of drugs. The Drug Lords. You eradicate the things that make drugs and you have solved the problem.

-As for the criminals, ship them all off our land to an island in the middle of no where and leave them there with nothing but the resourses of the island. If they try to escape, shoot them

A better way to deal with gangs, is just to kill them all.
Yes, them all.
Pull in the Millitary, and exterminate them with everything we've got.
Panzers, Tigers, Stukas, Kar98ks, MP40s, MG-42s, guys in grey uniforms, etc. etc. etc.
And you've just proven that you, Sir, are a real Dummkopf!
He's talking about today's prison system in Great Britain - not German armed forces in WWII.

Back on topic:
While I can agree on not having criminals run free in the streets because the prisons are filled up and thus their terms are shortened, I strongly believe that re-education and job qualifications are more likely to help an ex-con than just releasing him without any qualifications for a real job.

-To deal with drugs you deal with the sources of drugs. The Drug Lords. You eradicate the things that make drugs and you have solved the problem.

-As for the criminals, ship them all off our land to an island in the middle of no where and leave them there with nothing but the resourses of the island. If they try to escape, shoot them

1. Exactly. But we need to also annihilate the people who distribute the drugs aka. Gangs.

Panzer>>>Uzi.

hehe...

2. Actually, Britian tried that. Ever heard of Australia?

And you've just proven that you, Sir, are a real Dummkopf!
He's talking about today's prison system in Great Britain - not German armed forces in WWII.

Back on topic:
While I can agree on not having criminals run free in the streets because the prisons are filled up and thus their terms are shortened, I strongly believe that re-education and job qualifications are more likely to help an ex-con than just releasing him without any qualifications for a real job.

I agree with your statement. The only question I have is do you do it with all prisoners? I mean it would be a waste of time and effort to educate someone who is never getting out.

Look, the reason that we have more prisoners than in Europe is because we have more criminals than in Europe. It's simple. The growing underclass is going to be breeding more criminals, and so we are going to have to are going to have to put them is prison. We should also copy America's three strikes approach for serious crimes.

Roughly, 1 in a thousand are incarcerated in the UK where 7 in a thousand are incarcerated in the US. Incarceration rates have a direct correlation to population size and not economic or class status. It is a fallacy to think that the "underclass" are the only ones committing crimes. The problem with prisons today is that most punishments do not fit the crimes. An earlier poster had a problem with the term "victimless crimes." I would postulate that SOME crimes are victimless and punishment should not be as severe as other crimes. Should a drug user have the same punishment as a drug pusher?(rhetoric) If you know a heroine addict, should you be culpable for not doing your civic duty to inform the authorities?

Yeah. Because drug use is victimless. Just like insurance fraud - hey, the only person paying for it is the insurance dude, right? Hey, it's not like people get shot or stabbed or beaten to death for drugs and over drugs, is it? It's not like desperate addicts steal to score, is it? Oh no. Victimless.

That claim makes me sick. You've obviously never known anyone addicted to heroin.
The average drug addict doesn't rob, beat or kill anyone. He works at a job, often a dirty and poorly paid one, and spends his spare time with a $20 bag of speed, cocaine, or heroin. Some people steal for drug money, but some people steal for gas money or to pay the cable bill. Hey, let's ban everything that costs money and then nobody will have any reason to steal ever again!

True, we should provide Rehab for Drug Addicts.

However, for Drug Dealers, Gangs, Crime/Drug Lords, we'll put a SOS on them.

Shoot on Sight.

Survivors will be shot again.

Shoot to kill.

True, we should provide Rehab for Drug Addicts.

However, for Drug Dealers, Gangs, Crime/Drug Lords, we'll put a SOS on them.

Shoot on Sight.

Survivors will be shot again.

Shoot to kill. On sight of what? A suspicious-looking man in dreadlocks? 'Cos that's most peoples' image of a drug dealer, and maybe, just maybe killing all the Jamaicans isn't a good idea…

You can't stop crime by simply getting rid of the criminals. It's like weed-killing - you could hack off the weed when it grows high enough, but it'll grow again and harm the other plants. Or you could hack it back and pull it out of the ground at the same time. - ie DON'T ignore causes.

I agree with your statement. The only question I have is do you do it with all prisoners? I mean it would be a waste of time and effort to educate someone who is never getting out.
Mmh. There's gotta be something that prisons can manufacture or build without exposing the public to them. I mean, glueing paper bags or something is not a real productive occupation.

It's not that they should earn a lot by working, it's more to keep them occupied and make them a "valuable" part of society, better, let them contribute something that society needs.

Better than just locking them up and letting them rot. Now, what that could be - I'm open for suggestions :D

And you've just proven that you, Sir, are a real Dummkopf!
He's talking about today's prison system in Great Britain - not German armed forces in WWII.

Back on topic:
While I can agree on not having criminals run free in the streets because the prisons are filled up and thus their terms are shortened, I strongly believe that re-education and job qualifications are more likely to help an ex-con than just releasing him without any qualifications for a real job.

If they want education then they should get it outside of prison instead of committing a crime and making a victim suffer just to get an education.

-As for the criminals, ship them all off our land to an island in the middle of no where and leave them there with nothing but the resourses of the island. If they try to escape, shoot them

What s/he's saying is...

HI AUSTRALIA

Yeah. Because drug use is victimless. Just like insurance fraud - hey, the only person paying for it is the insurance dude, right? Hey, it's not like people get shot or stabbed or beaten to death for drugs and over drugs, is it? It's not like desperate addicts steal to score, is it? Oh no. Victimless.

That claim makes me sick. You've obviously never known anyone addicted to heroin.
They brought it upon themselves. Serves them right for being fucking stupid enough to try it in the first place.

If they want education then they should get it outside of prison instead of committing a crime and making a victim suffer just to get an education.
Don't you think you're putting the cart before the horse? That is not what I said and you know it!

-To deal with drugs you deal with the sources of drugs. The Drug Lords. You eradicate the things that make drugs and you have solved the problem.

-As for the criminals, ship them all off our land to an island in the middle of no where and leave them there with nothing but the resourses of the island. If they try to escape, shoot them

Ever heard of the Drug Wars? They were pointless.

Like the british with Australia and Georgia [technically Georgia was just a buffere between Florida and the rich Carolinas... far, far away from Britian].

:headbang:

You can't stop crime by simply getting rid of the criminals. It's like weed-killing - you could hack off the weed when it grows high enough, but it'll grow again and harm the other plants. Or you could hack it back and pull it out of the ground at the same time. - ie DON'T ignore causes.
So, the answer, then, is to regularly douse people who are in prison with Weed-B-Gone and periodically run over them with lawn mowers.

I'd say that what prisons need is some sort of labor program [possibly with a minimalist (but not minimum, that is to much) wage attached, of course they don't get the money till they get out] and permanent solitary confinement (thats right, solitary, no cell mates, no black market economy, no large scale meetings of people, don't even allow to people in the same shower/bathroom).
There should be some education related resources, but it should go no farther than minor trades related training and, of course, the full set of high school courses.

That said, I do believe that Brit's need to keep busy with prison's, you know how dissapointed the world would be with a reduction of people who were JBB.

To truly eliminate the root of the drug problem, one would have to eliminate the reasons why someone would take drugs in the first place.
Which is reality.
Good luck eliminating that.

2. Actually, Britian tried that. Ever heard of Australia?Georgia.

Yeah. Because drug use is victimless. Just like insurance fraud - hey, the only person paying for it is the insurance dude, right? Hey, it's not like people get shot or stabbed or beaten to death for drugs and over drugs, is it? It's not like desperate addicts steal to score, is it? Oh no. Victimless.

That claim makes me sick. You've obviously never known anyone addicted to heroin.

If you want to combat drug use, tackle the supply side of it. If you want to combat heroin use, fricking ask your government to do something about the Afghanistan drug trade. Locking up drug addicts has done nothing to solve the problem. You should know that.

Anybody besides me wonder why crime rates have dropped since the middle ages when executions and beatings were common?

Anybody besides me wonder why crime rates have dropped since the middle ages when executions and beatings were common?
They haven't dropped. It's all liberal propoganda.

Note: For the humor-impaired people on the board, that was a joke.

To truly eliminate the root of the drug problem, one would have to eliminate the reasons why someone would take drugs in the first place.
Which is reality.
Good luck eliminating that.
Thats it, you've hit upon it. Now, with you as our figurehead, we can make the War on Reality a reality! For too long have things like "facts" and "intelligence" held the human race back. Now is a time for action! A time for power! A time to end it all!
First, we must dump PCP into the water supply, so that people will start to ignore the harmful effects and propaganda that Reality will try to spew forth as a last ditch defense. Next, we will launch nuclear weapons at everything that shows affiliation with the Real. Finally, we must bring the Old Ones, so that they may shatter what is left of our Reality, and force it to scurry back into Hell!

Yeah. Because drug use is victimless. Just like insurance fraud - hey, the only person paying for it is the insurance dude, right? Hey, it's not like people get shot or stabbed or beaten to death for drugs and over drugs, is it? It's not like desperate addicts steal to score, is it? Oh no. Victimless.

That claim makes me sick. You've obviously never known anyone addicted to heroin.

If you hurt yourself it's not a crime, at least not in my morality. Easy ways around some problems:

1. Don't require that hosptials treat drug-related illnesses. That is, of course, unless they can pay for themselves.
2. Treat drugs like alcohol. You want to smoke up? Fine. You want to drive right after? That's when you get arrested.
3. Crack down on gangs because you ought to anyway. Besides, they make their money off selling contraband, so if drugs are legal dealing won't be so attractive anymore.
4. Educate the public on what drugs do, then turn the people loose. The government is not there to babysit us.

The other 'victims' of drug abuse are the friends and relations of the abuser. But this injury is mostly emotional and seems a rather flimsy reason for incarcerating someone. (Like they aren't going to stress over their son/brother/best friend going to jail.) May as well ban doing anything that makes someone else feel bad.

If drugs were legal the gangs would collapse because there would be legitimate recourse for selling drugs. The gangs are just extensions of the black market, take the impetus of the black market away and the gangs would for the most part disappear. It would also help if cities were forced to comply with the 2nd amendment.
This would depend on which drugs you would allow to be "legalized"? Legalizing hard core drugs would be totally irresponsible. If soft core drugs only were legalized, there would still be black market dealers for the hard core drugs.

Drug Addicts are not the criminals.

They are the victims.

The Criminals are Drug Dealers, Gangs, and Drug Lords.

And guess what we do with them?

Yup, we run them over with Panzers, Tigers, we gun them down with MG-42s, we bomb them with Stukas...hehe...

Drug Addicts are not the criminals.
What about the ones that steal or kill to support their habit?

The Criminals are Drug Dealers, Gangs, and Drug Lords.
Agreed.

And guess what we do with them?

Yup, we run them over with Panzers, Tigers, we gun them down with MG-42s, we bomb them with Stukas...hehe...
Long term jail is the proper answer.

Only 76,875 people are in prison in Britain, compared to about 2.2 million in the US. At the rate at which the prison population is growing, at 2000 a year, we will reach America's incarceration rate in 2165, which will be in 160 years time. We are getting there, so let's just be patient.


um why are you using total numbers in prision for countries with vastly different populations? percentage per 1000 people would have been more logical, though it might not show the massive unbalance you want to show (aka false lies through numbers)...oh well global warming people do the same thing..

Anybody besides me wonder why crime rates have dropped since the middle ages when executions and beatings were common?

More organzied and centeralized police forces, better detection on crimes makes getting away with crimes harder and thus a lesser viable option...ect ect...

Geezus do you people even think before you type sometimes?

Only 76,875 people are in prison in Britain, compared to about 2.2 million in the US.


United Kingdom — Population: 60,441,457
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

United States — Population: 295,734,134
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

Do you see, perhaps, a small diffence in the populations of these two nations?

United Kingdom — Population: 60,441,457
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

United States — Population: 295,734,134
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

Do you see, perhaps, a small diffence in the populations of these two nations?
There is a difference in populations but the US per capita rate is obviously much higher than the UK.

Food for thought (http://www.monthlyreview.org/0701editr.htm):

The United States incarcerates five to eight times more of its people per capita than Western European nations—though its crime rates for nonviolent crimes are comparable to those of Western Europe—and seventeen times more than Japan. The number of inmates in federal and state prisons in the United States has increased over 500 percent since 1970. Governments have been overthrown for being less abusive toward the rights of so many citizens.

United Kingdom — Population: 60,441,457
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

United States — Population: 295,734,134
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

Do you see, perhaps, a small diffence in the populations of these two nations?

60,441,457/76,875 = 786 and change
295,734,134/2,200,000 = 134 and change
786/134 = 5.86 and change

Conclusion: In the U.S., per capita, nearly six times as many people are in prison than in the U.K.

I really envy America for it's penal system. I wish we could have a penal system like they have in America. :)