NationStates Jolt Archive

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/06092005/140/storm-survivors-told-expose-themselves.html#katrina

Sigh. I really wish I hadn't read this.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/06092005/140/storm-survivors-told-expose-themselves.html#katrina

Sigh. I really wish I hadn't read this.
I'm not all that surprised. There will be lots of heads rolling after this. At least I hope there will be. :mad:

You wonder how safe the US really is these days.

That is simply sick.

Those guys should be shot. To quote John Stewart: "Dicks."

Jesus Christ, that is just sick. First of all the behaviour of the police offiers but I knew there were rapes in NO but I didn't know they were happening in the superdome. Some ppl should just be shot. Thats disgusting.

That's bad. The people who worked in a nursing home and abandoned the patients was also bad. :( Disasters always bring out the worst and the best in people.

They were just trying to keep the spirit of New Orleans alive.

They were just trying to keep the spirit of New Orleans alive.

That's terrible - but kind of funny.

tchah, i always knew the average yank had something wrong with em

(i know im inviting a lot of abuse here, but im bored and my dad is american, so dont tell me off too badly)

Hmm, you'd expect criminals to take advantage of the situation… but police officers? I hate to say this, but there does seem to be something wrong with some US police forces.

Well it is New Orleans. Still if they wanted to be flashed they should have had the common courtesy to throw cheap beads at the women.

Seriously though, that's fucked up. I could see if the rescuers had said it as a joke, but the fact that they were serious and that they failed to assist people in need is disgusting. I hope they'll be charged with some crime and the judge shows the same level of compassion in sentencing them.

Hmm, you'd expect criminals to take advantage of the situation… but police officers? I hate to say this, but there does seem to be something wrong with some US police forces.
Have you ever watched the show "Reno 911"?

This catastrophe has brought out the worst in many.

But this...is inexcusable!

That's beyond cruel - that's just plain malicious!

The nerve of those guys! I bet they didnt even have any beads!

So are there any more anarchists out there who need any more proof as to why anarchy does not make for a viable society?

:mad:

if this is true http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2748 I find it much more disturbing

If they had beads, we wouldn't be reading about it since, in the words of the Mayor; "Get over it, thats New Orleans!'.

But seriously folks (typical bad comedian segue). The actions of these individuals should not be reflective of the entire police force of NO, nor of the police forces of "All Yanks". Such generalizations are short-sighted at best and homogenize an entire branch of employment and its members. Look deeper.

Be well

But seriously folks (typical bad comedian segue). The actions of these individuals should not be reflective of the entire police force of NO, nor of the police forces of "All Yanks". Such generalizations are short-sighted at best and homogenize an entire branch of employment and its members. Look deeper.

I don't know about that in this case. The New Orleans police department is the most corrupt and least effective force in the United States. This stems from the brutal mismanagement of that force by the city/state of New Orleans (also some of the most corrupt in the country); these people are underpaid, undertrained, and underequipped (they have to supply their own guns!) thanks to the terrible job that city's government has done. This is an example of a systemic failiure within the city of New Orleans.

haha, that's the most hilarious thing I've read all week :D you United Statesians really are pigs. I hope you all choke on your dirty sewage water.

awful

but I want to know what George Bush has to do with the people who left them there... just shows to go you that people heap way too much blame on people who have nothing at all to do with such atrocious behavior. THINK before you blame. Is the president, or anyone in government (for that matter), responsible for the actions of all Americans?

Is Bush responsible for Nagin's refusal to use SCHOOL BUSES to move people out of NO before the situation became critical?

Is Bush responsible for the flood?

Is Bush responsible for the failure of FEMA?

What about the inaction of Louisiana's governor... is Bush responsible for her F-ups too?

Really...

awful

but I want to know what George Bush has to do with the people who left them there... just shows to go you that people heap way too much blame on people who have nothing at all to do with such atrocious behavior. THINK before you blame. Is the president, or anyone in government (for that matter), responsible for the actions of all Americans?

Is Bush responsible for Nagin's refusal to use SCHOOL BUSES to move people out of NO before the situation became critical?

Is Bush responsible for the flood?

Is Bush responsible for the failure of FEMA?

What about the inaction of Louisiana's governor... is Bush responsible for her F-ups too?

Really...I blame the President for the people he appointed to homeland security...

Mythotic Kelkia, your words put you in the same group as those Policemen.

What Vetalia said is true, it is not a reflection of the whole police force of NO or LA state, nor is it any sort of reflection on any other law enforcement or rescuer in the US.

I also agree with Frangland, good point. It was the same thing with Abu Gharib, a few bad apples let their behaviour get out of hand because they were bored and not all that smart. The Iraqis had done a lot worse anyway, and those they were hitting probably deserved it, but to many people that still doesn't make it right and thats the way it is. Graner and his mates, however, do not make a reflection on US Soldiers as a whole, nor on the US Nation as a whole, something the BBC, CNN and many European and Middle Eastern news outlets were not quick to point. THINK BEFORE YOU BLAME, indeed.

I blame the President for the people he appointed to homeland security...

tough to know how people will act in such times...

even so, whose jurisdiction is it? who makes the first move?

the city, the state or the feds?

I think it should go in that order... city (since they're there where the destruction is) should make the immediate decisions... then the state should come in with whatever the city needs... maybe make some of the bigger decisions... the the feds should come in to help clean up.

Regardless, some sort of protocol must come out of this so that different levels of government know what to do, and in what order.

awful

but I want to know what George Bush has to do with the people who left them there... just shows to go you that people heap way too much blame on people who have nothing at all to do with such atrocious behavior. THINK before you blame. Is the president, or anyone in government (for that matter), responsible for the actions of all Americans?

Is Bush responsible for Nagin's refusal to use SCHOOL BUSES to move people out of NO before the situation became critical?

Is Bush responsible for the flood?

Is Bush responsible for the failure of FEMA?

What about the inaction of Louisiana's governor... is Bush responsible for her F-ups too?

Really...

Uh, you're the first one to bring up Bush in this thread. Just a bit defensive, are we?

It's horrible we're all cannabalist gun weilding psychopaths don't come here EVER! :rolleyes:


You wonder how safe the US really is these days.

I think it's time for an American revolution.

Seriously.

You did NOT hear it from me.

*shiftyeyes*

I think it's time for an American revolution.

Seriously.

You did NOT hear it from me.

*shiftyeyes*
one at a time

An réabhlóid abu!

You know, I wonder how many of you have ever actually been to New Orleans, have been to Mardi Gras, and have seen the moral degradation and filth in that city? I'm not gonna get into it, cuz those are my beliefs and I dont want to push that stuff on yall. However, I can say that the New Orleans housing developments and things were very poorly built, slanted roofs that shouldnt be, etc. NOt to mention the damned city was 8 feet below sea level to begin with! With the police thing however, I have yet to see any proof of that anywhere else, and I know for a fact that if CNN got the chance to flame more police, then I'd have already heard about it. And saying that the NO police department is the worst, you have no statistical basis for that, including a crime rate or anything. Last I heard...Washington D.C. had the highest crime rate thank you very much. Stop bashin what these obviously underpaid, overworked, and more than likely frustrated at the situation workers are trying to do. If you don't like it, then join the NO police department, and start changing things. Until then, don't bash the entire group of American police officers based on something you can't even prove happened.

yeah, its Bush's fault he didnt stand on a rock, raised his staff,
and stopped the flood waters!
Also, shame on Bush for not sending in the US army to help,
never mind the fact that federal troops need an invitaion
from the governor to let them into their state.
Also, shame on Bush for cutting back on the US corp of engineers
money, even though it has been going down since Clinton
has been in office.
Just blaim Bush.

You know, I wonder how many of you have ever actually been to New Orleans, have been to Mardi Gras, and have seen the moral degradation and filth in that city? I'm not gonna get into it, cuz those are my beliefs and I dont want to push that stuff on yall. However, I can say that the New Orleans housing developments and things were very poorly built, slanted roofs that shouldnt be, etc. NOt to mention the damned city was 8 feet below sea level to begin with! With the police thing however, I have yet to see any proof of that anywhere else, and I know for a fact that if CNN got the chance to flame more police, then I'd have already heard about it. And saying that the NO police department is the worst, you have no statistical basis for that, including a crime rate or anything. Last I heard...Washington D.C. had the highest crime rate thank you very much. Stop bashin what these obviously underpaid, overworked, and more than likely frustrated at the situation workers are trying to do. If you don't like it, then join the NO police department, and start changing things. Until then, don't bash the entire group of American police officers based on something you can't even prove happened.
Damn straight!

tough to know how people will act in such times...

even so, whose jurisdiction is it? who makes the first move?

the city, the state or the feds?

I think it should go in that order... city (since they're there where the destruction is) should make the immediate decisions... then the state should come in with whatever the city needs... maybe make some of the bigger decisions... the the feds should come in to help clean up.

Regardless, some sort of protocol must come out of this so that different levels of government know what to do, and in what order.

From a practical standpoint, you have to think of it this way. The federal government has access to the most money, and the most expertise. The mayor of New Orleans was running a cable tv company a couple of years ago. I don't know what Blanco's qualifications are, but it looks like none. When a major disaster hits, FEMA shouldn't necessary be on the ground, but they should be on the phone from the day that anyone even considers that it might be happening. They should be giving her advice, reviewing her plans, and making sure that, for example, the full forces of the state national guard are ready to move into the area as soon as they are needed.

If that is what happened, and Blanco and Nagin refused advice and help, then I will let FEMA Bush off of the hook. From where I'm standing it looks like Bush was on vacation and it was the last thing on his mind, and the FEMA guy had no idea what he was doing and was caught like a deer in the headlights. The larger part of the blame should be laid on Bianco and Nagin, but that doesn't let the feds off the hook.

Hmm, you'd expect criminals to take advantage of the situation… but police officers? I hate to say this, but there does seem to be something wrong with some US police forces.


That was New Orleans in general before even the hurricane hit, in the late 90's Clintons government threatened to federally take over the police department of NO because it was so corrupt, so corrupted in fact that the police force was actually doing HITS..yeah thats right murdering people. New Orleans is a crappy town, and they rally around it as some sort of "special culture" much like the city of philly does, the people actually rally around and support these trashy, corrupt officals that screw over their own city repeatedly. New Olreans was a third world city before the hurricane hit, it will be after, and it will continue to be proud of its trashy nature much like rednecks are, and for that matter so called "players" in the urban community do as well, trashy is color blind after all...what sucks is they actually blame the feds for the cities ineptitude and people believe it..lol what total garbage....

I mean you have a mayor so out of touch he said 10,000 people are dead.....I doubt the number will even go over 1,000 just watch. If anything he said 10,000 to get tons of aid for his corrupt city so he can line is corrupt pockets even more....and the feds being scared shitless about "not helping the black man" will throw billions at the city without even checking were it will go....It is Win Win for the mayor of NO right now.

Hmm, you'd expect criminals to take advantage of the situation… but police officers? I hate to say this, but there does seem to be something wrong with some US police forces.

which is why the founding fathers had the foresight to add the 2nd amendment,
i know i would not have felt to safe...even armed ,down there.
my brother and his family live there so i have been down there a few times and it is a great place to party,but god forbid you wander off the beaten path.
he lost everthing,but he left before the storm hit because he knew this would happen...as should have the mayor and governor..etc.
not to say all poor people are crimminals,but n.o. has a huge poor population,and a ridiculously high crime rate(partially because the police and auth. are sooooo corrupt.
so it was no stretch to anticapate widespread looting and violence.
i feel sorry for those that could not afford to leave and werent commiting crimes against there neighbors.

i do wonder how many people had there lives saved or family not raped because they were armed!

let's see...we dont need guns because the gov/police will protect you..lol :mp5:

This catastrophe has brought out the worst in many.

But this...is inexcusable!it's all inexcusable. it don't matter if it's an EarthQuake or a Flood, such behavior is a stain on Police forces everywhere.

you know, if the city was so corrupt, (with tales of a corrupt police force down to rescuers being Racists) perhaps it's a good thing that New Orleans was hit as hard as it was. We have Resources not being used (Buses sitting idly by) we have tales of rapes and racism caused by those who are supposed to help. People abusing and abandoning their posistions...

It's getting to be where I am glad that New Orleans has been... well, cleansed.

It's the symptoms of how rotten the system is, no one is really to blame for it, and everyone is to blame: it's the consumer society

It's the symptoms of how rotten the system is, no one is really to blame for it, and everyone is to blame: it's the consumer society

what does consumer society have to do with police not rescuing people because they refused to flash them?blaming soceity wont solve anything,blame those police officers.

Psssst, hey people who know 'everything' about the South, ITS FREAKIN' NEW ORLEANS!
The city is nearly as Chicago or New York for its corrupt cops, its not an excuse, but its really rather stupid to be suprised by corruption in NO.

what does consumer society have to do with police not rescuing people because they refused to flash them?blaming soceity wont solve anything,blame those police officers.Blaming those police officers won't do anything either. That's like blaming the kids who break into school with pistols and gun down their classmates.

The simple fact is that the consumer society encourages acting entirely for your own interests and aims. When such mindset becomes canon, you'll find people who will stoop to any level to get what they want; including rescue workers abandoning girls refusing to be exploited, small families refusing to give evacuees room in their cars, people stealing anything and everything in the city, politicians congratulating each other on a grand response to the relief effort/condemning everything and everyone in an attempt to gain the support of the average Joe...

Blaming those police officers won't do anything either. That's like blaming the kids who break into school with pistols and gun down their classmates.

The simple fact is that the consumer society encourages acting entirely for your own interests and aims. When such mindset becomes canon, you'll find people who will stoop to any level to get what they want; including rescue workers abandoning girls refusing to be exploited, small families refusing to give evacuees room in their cars, people stealing anything and everything in the city, politicians congratulating each other on a grand response to the relief effort/condemning everything and everyone in an attempt to gain the support of the average Joe...

thank you, that was my point

Blaming those police officers won't do anything either. That's like blaming the kids who break into school with pistols and gun down their classmates.??? huh, it is those kids fault, and they are held responsible, it's just that people (like their parents) want to blame other things that 'Corrupted' their child. In reality, it's still the Kids fault, and in this case, the Police officers fault.

The simple fact is that the consumer society encourages acting entirely for your own interests and aims. When such mindset becomes canon, you'll find people who will stoop to any level to get what they want; including rescue workers abandoning girls refusing to be exploited, small families refusing to give evacuees room in their cars, people stealing anything and everything in the city, politicians congratulating each other on a grand response to the relief effort/condemning everything and everyone in an attempt to gain the support of the average Joe...that will happen in any society. especially one where resources are suddenly limited. people will go on a "me first" mentality. can't blame consumer society or any society, it's just how people tend to be when resources become limited.

I think it should go in that order... city (since they're there where the destruction is) should make the immediate decisions... then the state should come in with whatever the city needs... maybe make some of the bigger decisions... the the feds should come in to help clean up.

Regardless, some sort of protocol must come out of this so that different levels of government know what to do, and in what order.
That essentially is what the order is supposed to be. The problem is for the feds to be effective they need the support of the state, which they didn't get.

??? huh, it is those kids fault, and they are held responsible, it's just that people (like their parents) want to blame other things that 'Corrupted' their child. In reality, it's still the Kids fault, and in this case, the Police officers fault.Soo... what, you think it's typical jeuvenile behaviour to storm into school and blow their classmates away?

Cause and effect. Your actions at that stage are solely decided by your mindset; your mindset is a mere culmination of influences upon you. You've got to be pretty damn upset to go on a killing spree.

In any case, what possible effect would blaming the kid have?

*Shooting in a school*

Blame falls on the kid without trying to look into motivation. Nothing more is done because the kid can't be punished as he's already offed himself or been shot by police.

*Another shooting in a school*

Blame falls on that kid. Ditto on the response.

*Another shooting in a school*

Blame falls on that kid...

that will happen in any society. especially one where resources are suddenly limited. people will go on a "me first" mentality. can't blame consumer society or any society, it's just how people tend to be when resources become limited.Not if a community spirit already exists, they won't. People don't abuse other people they have an emotional connection with.

Soo... what, you think it's typical jeuvenile behaviour to storm into school and blow their classmates away?Note, I said it was the KIDs Fault, no where did I mention that is was just Childish Behavoir.

Cause and effect. Your actions at that stage are solely decided by your mindset; your mindset is a mere culmination of influences upon you. You've got to be pretty damn upset to go on a killing spree.and one of the biggest influences on children are their parents, if the parents are not taking active roles in their children's lives, then the Parents are to blame.

In any case, what possible effect would blaming the kid have?

*Shooting in a school*

Blame falls on the kid without trying to look into motivation. Nothing more is done because the kid can't be punished as he's already offed himself or been shot by police.

*Another shooting in a school*

Blame falls on that kid. Ditto on the response.

*Another shooting in a school*

Blame falls on that kid...
It puts the responsibility where it should be, on the Parents. by creating all sorts of exscuses then you run into Cencorships as well as Government micromanaging Family as well as business. You can very well say that the decay of Morals can be traced to Gays, and thus turn it into a Anit-Same-sex Marrage argument, but that is stupid. You can Censor everything under the sun but that doesn't change the fact that Parents need to take active roles in what their kids do. Blaming the Kids also puts the focus on the parents as well.

Not if a community spirit already exists, they won't. People don't abuse other people they have an emotional connection with. and those officers are part of the community. yet tales of gangs shooting others, stealing and creating havoc isn't really showing real community spirit. :(

Back on topic. to blame the gov. for the acts that these police officers did is not focusing on the problem. the problem is that these Officers who are adults, should know when such behavior is appropriate. that they didn't is their fault and possibly the Whole Departments fault if the rumors of the extent of Police corruption is even near truth.

EDIT: Oh, and the reason why I say you can't blame society. is because there are other desasters that hit where the community did pull through. so it's not the society, but perhaps the community?

Note, I said it was the KIDs Fault, no where did I mention that is was just Childish Behavoir.

and one of the biggest influences on children are their parents, if the parents are not taking active roles in their children's lives, then the Parents are to blame.


It puts the responsibility where it should be, on the Parents. by creating all sorts of exscuses then you run into Cencorships as well as Government micromanaging Family as well as business. You can very well say that the decay of Morals can be traced to Gays, and thus turn it into a Anit-Same-sex Marrage argument, but that is stupid. You can Censor everything under the sun but that doesn't change the fact that Parents need to take active roles in what their kids do. Blaming the Kids also puts the focus on the parents as well.

and those officers are part of the community. yet tales of gangs shooting others, stealing and creating havoc isn't really showing real community spirit. :(

Back on topic. to blame the gov. for the acts that these police officers did is not focusing on the problem. the problem is that these Officers who are adults, should know when such behavior is appropriate. that they didn't is their fault and possibly the Whole Departments fault if the rumors of the extent of Police corruption is even near truth.

EDIT: Oh, and the reason why I say you can't blame society. is because there are other desasters that hit where the community did pull through. so it's not the society, but perhaps the community?Well, the point I'm trying to make is that there are circumstances that create the individual. It's no good addressing the problem without analysing the circumstances that led the individual to become what they were. Hence, in a Child's case, you analyse his relationship with his parents, how he was taught, his relationship with his schoolmates and teacher, his attitude towards morality etc. By studying those, you try to learn how to influence the behaviour of parents, other children, teachers and so on to prevent such events from happening in the future.

Likewise, when things like this happen, you want to look at what led the rescue workers to behave as they did. Sure, the decision was ultimately theirs to make, and they should be punished in an attempt to correct their way of thinking, but in the process, you want to learn what made them think that way in the first place so that such events are not repeated by people who learn to think in the same way.

It looks to me that in at least some part, a culture of self-indulgence plays a (possibly very small) role in forming these people. Perhaps deeper analysis would prove me wrong. But sitting there and saying "Okay, it's all his fault, now let's get on with it" isn't at all constructive, especially when there's a liklihood that other people could end up repeating the very same mistakes.


EDIT: Incidentally, the reason I mentioned the thing about Childish behaviour is simply that most kids don't shoot other kids. There's something that explicitly separates those few children that do, and it's probably a good idea to work out what that thing is.

Well, the point I'm trying to make is that there are circumstances that create the individual. It's no good addressing the problem without analysing the circumstances that led the individual to become what they were. Hence, in a Child's case, you analyse his relationship with his parents, how he was taught, his relationship with his schoolmates and teacher, his attitude towards morality etc. By studying those, you try to learn how to influence the behaviour of parents, other children, teachers and so on to prevent such events from happening in the future.

Likewise, when things like this happen, you want to look at what led the rescue workers to behave as they did. Sure, the decision was ultimately theirs to make, and they should be punished in an attempt to correct their way of thinking, but in the process, you want to learn what made them think that way in the first place so that such events are not repeated by people who learn to think in the same way.

It looks to me that in at least some part, a culture of self-indulgence plays a (possibly very small) role in forming these people. Perhaps deeper analysis would prove me wrong. But sitting there and saying "Okay, it's all his fault, now let's get on with it" isn't at all constructive, especially when there's a liklihood that other people could end up repeating the very same mistakes.agreed, but by punnishing bad behavior, you also let others know what behavior is toloerated in society and which isn't. Influences are always there and it's the individual who makes the choice as to which Influence to follow.


EDIT: Incidentally, the reason I mentioned the thing about Childish behaviour is simply that most kids don't shoot other kids. There's something that explicitly separates those few children that do, and it's probably a good idea to work out what that thing is.working it out is fine, but nowdays, people are finding it easier to blame others. Rockstar games for making GTA that glorifies Violence... nevermind that those games are not for anyone under 13... Movies glorify Violence, sex, drug abuse, (yet do these parents talk to their kids about Violence, sex and drugs?) and lets not forget... the economy forces both parents to work, thus less time for kids. (my parents both worked and they still made time for me and my siblings.)

In the end, the choice to do right and wrong falls on the individual. While the bad influence is there, so are the Good, thus the individual has to decide which to follow, which one shapes their lives.

agreed, but by punnishing bad behavior, you also let others know what behavior is toloerated in society and which isn't. Influences are always there and it's the individual who makes the choice as to which Influence to follow.

...

working it out is fine, but nowdays, people are finding it easier to blame others. Rockstar games for making GTA that glorifies Violence... nevermind that those games are not for anyone under 13... Movies glorify Violence, sex, drug abuse, (yet do these parents talk to their kids about Violence, sex and drugs?) and lets not forget... the economy forces both parents to work, thus less time for kids. (my parents both worked and they still made time for me and my siblings.)

In the end, the choice to do right and wrong falls on the individual. While the bad influence is there, so are the Good, thus the individual has to decide which to follow, which one shapes their lives.It sounds like you've had a pretty good influence. I wonder, though, just how you would feel about the issue if you'd been practically abandoned by your parents, eternally taunted and physically abused at school by both other pupils and teachers and raised with a culture that demands people solve their own problems with no sort of confidence in authority and no hope of relief in sight without taking matters into your own hands.

I don't think the effect of environment on personality and behaviour can be emphasised strongly enough. Then again, I'd side with Nurture rather than Nature.

If you want to see mankind's darker side, look at 9/11, days 1-7 after Katrina, Hitler/Stalin/Mao.

-well now I hate the national guard aswell because they only helped a few people because a pet relationship was formed

-Dammit I want the names of those rescue workers and were they live :mp5:

-And how come we didn’t here about this in Indonesia I wonder (I think its the guns that broke the camels back)

It's getting to be where I am glad that New Orleans has been... well, cleansed.

LOL, Babylon was cleansed and look what grew in its place. I just heard today talk of rebuilding New Orleans as the Las Vegas of the South.

LOL, Babylon was cleansed and look what grew in its place. I just heard today talk of rebuilding New Orleans as the Las Vegas of the South.
Vegas wishes it could touch New Orleans for class and history. Vegas is all glitz and no substance. New Orleans is one of the most authentically deep and moving cities in existence--or at least it was. I hope it comes back.

First of all that is one sick story and i wish I hadn't read it either. It's liek when someone tells you something smells aweful so you have to smell it to find out.

Vegas wishes it could touch New Orleans for class and history. Vegas is all glitz and no substance. New Orleans is one of the most authentically deep and moving cities in existence--or at least it was. I hope it comes back.


lol hey theres a kuhl history to vegas, although you are right about the superficial glitz.

I heard someone saying that they are going to DisneyLandify New orleans when they rebuild it and it will become cheesy. I hope that doesnt happen. I never got to visit and do the Mardi Gras thing :(

Vegas wishes it could touch New Orleans for class and history. Vegas is all glitz and no substance. New Orleans is one of the most authentically deep and moving cities in existence--or at least it was. I hope it comes back.

No need to lecture me on New Orleans, I have long ties to the city and (hopefully it's still there) a family tomb. The standing theme of New Orleans is and always will be Laissez le bon rouleau de temps (Let the good times roll), and also for 2 weeks a year, "throw me something mister." Uptown, downtown and the French Quarter, will remain and possibly, after the clean-up, less the smell of stagnate beer and vomit. I'd like to be optimistic and, like the phoenix, see something beautiful rise from the ashes, but I'm skeptical, as you should be, from all the talk in congress and on wall street on what is to become of the city that has so much historical relevance to the growth of this nation.