NationStates Jolt Archive


Alternative fuel development pace speeds up due to high gas prices.

Eutrusca
10-09-2005, 13:28
COMMENTARY: As expected, the recent sky-high gasoline and oil prices have spurred alternative fuel development. I only hope those working on this issue have great creativity and perseverence. ( Sorry about the length of this article, but I think it's important enough to post the entire thing. )


The New Prize: Alternative Fuels (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/10/business/10alternative.html?th&emc=th)


By DANNY HAKIM
Published: September 10, 2005

DETROIT, Sept. 9 - A week ago, Benjamin Kleber was spending $3.39 a gallon at a gasoline station in Maryland when he noticed an obscure decal on his minivan.

"It's this sticker about the size of a business card that's stuck on the side of the gas flap that I never really paid attention to," said Mr. Kleber, a 25-year-old electrical engineer for a government contractor. The decal said he could be using E85, a fuel cocktail that consists mostly of grain alcohol, or corn-based ethanol, with a splash of gasoline.

Production of ethanol fuel, much of it blended in small doses with regular gasoline, has doubled to more than three billion gallons in the last half decade. This year, propelled by rising gasoline prices, E85 is finding new life as an alternative fuel.

It remains hard to find, to say the least, in part because many oil companies have no desire to put a competing product in stations that carry their banner. But the number of stations offering E85 has nearly doubled since January, to more than 460, mostly in corn-growing states like Minnesota. And because of incentives included in recently passed energy legislation, and the fact that E85 is now about 40 to 50 cents cheaper than a gallon of regular gasoline, E85 backers are expecting the surge to accelerate.

Being an engineer, Mr. Kleber had heard of E85. And after spending $58 to fill his 1998 Plymouth Voyager with regular unleaded last Sunday - "staggering," he said - he went home and began to do some research. He discovered that a station nearby sold the fuel for $2.67 a gallon. At current prices that could save him more than $14 a fillup.

So he decided he would switch to a fuel from the Midwest instead of the Mideast.

"I think we go through fossil fuel like a kid in a candy store without any concern about what happens when it runs out," he said.

In a nation that has shrugged at conservation for two decades, the impact of Hurricane Katrina on gasoline prices has been a bracing reality check. All year long, as prices have ticked up, a movement has been afoot away from jumbo sport utility vehicles and toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.

That said, it would take a radical change to wean the country off foreign oil. Still, more than ever before, the nation's roads are a moving laboratory with all manner of alternatives to gasoline combustion engines, often being driven by average Americans, if in small numbers.

There are cars powered by natural gas, by hydrogen fuel cells and by French fry grease. There are electric cars and hybrid electric cars that can be plugged into the power grid.

What separates E85 is that more than four million American cars and trucks have the ability to run on it right now, even though the majority of people who own these so-called flex-fuel vehicles are not even aware of the ability. Already, Brazil has turned to ethanol en masse, though the fuel there is derived from the more prevalent local crop, sugarcane.

Gregory J. Cobb recently replaced premium gasoline pumps at two of his five Indiana stations with E85. At one station near South Bend, he said, he was selling 24,000 gallons of E85 a month compared with the 1,700 gallons of premium gas he had been selling.

"One of the customers drove about 30 miles to the station; she said: 'I'm putting my dad's corn in the car. I'd rather do that than pay OPEC,' " Mr. Cobb said. "That's why we did it, too. If we're going to get diverse, away from dependency on foreign oil, we have to do this. And to be honest, our premium sales weren't doing much."

In Madison, Wis., Rebecca Bell and her husband, Kevin, started using E85 in the last couple of weeks to fuel their Ford Explorer and their Chevy minivan. They have also started carpooling with neighbors.

"I feel better that it's coming from the United States," said Ms. Bell, 34, a vice president of a veterinary drug company and a mother of three.

"If we continue to use foreign oil, we're always going to be in somebody's hip pocket."

Adrian Moses, a 55-year-old computer consultant in a suburb of St. Paul, said he had for several years used E85 to fuel his Ford Ranger pickup. "I do it because it's the right thing, not because of economics," he said, adding that it was "cleaner for the environment" and "made here in the Midwest, not in the Middle East."

Now, here are some of the catches.

For starters, it's hard to find the stuff. There are roughly 180,000 gasoline stations nationwide and fewer than 500 with E85. And ethanol can take us only so far. Huge tracts of farmland would have to be converted to corn production to provide enough fuel for significant portions of the American automobile fleet.

A recent study published in the journal BioScience forecast that for all cars and trucks to run on ethanol by 2048, "virtually the entire country, with the exception of cities, would be covered with corn plantations." Using more farmland to produce ethanol would also drive up food prices. And E85 cannot be transported through gasoline pipelines, because it sucks up grime and water.

E85 is also less energy-dense than gasoline, so a driver goes a bit less far on a gallon. Its current cost advantage is dependent on a 43-cents-a-gallon subsidy, versus a roughly 40-cent tax on a gallon of gasoline. Environmentalists have generally viewed the rise of flex-fuel vehicles as a boondoggle for automakers, because they are afforded fuel economy credits for making them. The credits have had the effect of driving up oil consumption. Many consumers who buy flex-fuel vehicles are not even made aware of the capability.

On the upside, ethanol is a domestic resource and most studies indicate that it reduces emissions of both smog-forming pollutants and global warming gases, the amount depending on how it is produced. An emerging process of creating ethanol from agricultural waste like cereal straw has the potential for far greater emissions reductions and more efficient land use.

This so-called cellulose ethanol has much greater potential than current ethanol, said Michael Wang, a researcher at the Center for Transportation Research at the Argonne National Laboratory, but, he added, "the technology has not arrived."

David Friedman, a senior analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists, an environmental group, said, "ethanol has great potential to help the U.S. kick our oil habit, but that's 20 or 30 years away."

"Corn ethanol can help in the short term, but it has serious limitations, and none of this is going to work if we don't dramatically improve the efficiency of our cars and trucks."

Certainly, ethanol has its friends, like corn growers, and its enemies. In July, Corn Cob Bob, an ethanol industry mascot, was banished from Canada Day celebrations in Ottawa. Shell, a sponsor of the festivities, had expressed discomfort at the mascot's participation.

"Good old Corn Cob represents an industry association of ethanol producers, which includes some of our competitors in the retail fuel category," said Jan Rowley, a spokeswoman for Shell of Canada, adding that Shell had not intended to have Bob actually banned. Royal Dutch Shell has a stake in Iogen, a leader in developing cellulose ethanol.

The banning of Corn Cob Bob, who looks like a farmer with a corncob head, inspired a recent segment on the "Daily Show" on Comedy Central, culminating with the mock execution of the mascot by the comedian Rob Corddry.

"This world was never going to treat Corn Cob Bob fairly," explained Mr. Corddry, as soft piano music trilled in the background. "I wanted to show him a better place."
Lovely Boys
10-09-2005, 13:33
In New Zealand; for many years there were cars that used to run on CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) and LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) - there used to be government subsidies for the installation of these tanks.

It would be interesting to see if there is a rise in the number of people starting to take an interest in LPG and CNG powered cars again.
Daistallia 2104
10-09-2005, 13:43
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it as long as is needed to get it through certain thick heads: the so-called "alternative" fuels will only make headway when it's economically fesable. And they're starting to head that way.

In New Zealand; for many years there were cars that used to run on CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) and LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) - there used to be government subsidies for the installation of these tanks.

It would be interesting to see if there is a rise in the number of people starting to take an interest in LPG and CNG powered cars again.

A large % of taxi fleets here in Japan are LPG.
Borgoa
10-09-2005, 13:56
Many of the SL buses in Stockholm run on LPG gas or something similar. You can tell because they have higher roofs (to fit in the tanks).

Many of the Stockholm buses are also running using ethanol.
Eutrusca
10-09-2005, 14:08
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it as long as is needed to get it through certain thick heads: the so-called "alternative" fuels will only make headway when it's economically fesable. And they're starting to head that way.
Exactly. I've said much the same thing myself.
Eutrusca
10-09-2005, 14:09
Many of the SL buses in Stockholm run on LPG gas or something similar. You can tell because they have higher roofs (to fit in the tanks).

Many of the Stockholm buses are also running using ethanol.
Wasn't there a recent article about someone in England designing a car that rus on water???
Celtlund
10-09-2005, 14:11
Back in the mid 70s, they had something called gasohol, which sounds a lot like you are talking about. It never became very popular and eventually disappeared from the market. I don't know why but it could be there wasn't much difference in price.
New Machine
10-09-2005, 14:30
Wow....But your right about the Gas companies not wanting to put it in the stations that carry their banner. Its a shame that they would only think of the money made for them! It would cost less to grow corn instead of a million dollar oil pump off the coast of some beautifull paradise. Sometimes I wonder what will happen when fossil fuels are obsoulite! Willie Nelson is even trying to pass a new type of fuel that is basically what you are talking about!

Gas Companies :sniper:
Myrmidonisia
10-09-2005, 15:11
Many of the SL buses in Stockholm run on LPG gas or something similar. You can tell because they have higher roofs (to fit in the tanks).

Many of the Stockholm buses are also running using ethanol.
We built a one-of-a-kind hydrogen-electric bus for the 1996 Olympics when I was working for Georgia Tech. It needed a lot of H2 to run the generator, but the size of the bus made it a reasonable fuel to use. Pretty cool to watch it run and see water as the only combustion by-product.
Bolol
10-09-2005, 15:16
Wasn't there a recent article about someone in England designing a car that rus on water???

Never heard anything about that. I know that they're developing pure-hydrogen cars that only create water as a biproduct. But running on water?

...Steam powered cars...sounds like fun!
UnitarianUniversalists
10-09-2005, 15:33
Wasn't there a recent article about someone in England designing a car that rus on water???

I think you are refering to the hydrogen fuel cells. There is only one (fairly large) problem with them, they take twice as much energy to create then they put out. They would be a great idea if we had a large excess of energy...
Myrmidonisia
10-09-2005, 15:42
Never heard anything about that. I know that they're developing pure-hydrogen cars that only create water as a biproduct. But running on water?

...Steam powered cars...sounds like fun!
Only problem is that steam has to be produced. Google the Stanley Steamer for an early steam-powered car. Or just look at any steam locomotive.

Maybe the front seat wouldn't be so popular if by sitting there, you had to stoke the boiler.

I'm looking for electric hybrids to carry the day until fuel cells or some other alternate technology becomes viable.
Myrmidonisia
10-09-2005, 15:44
Never heard anything about that. I know that they're developing pure-hydrogen cars that only create water as a biproduct. But running on water?

...Steam powered cars...sounds like fun!
Maybe this (http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/09/cx_mf_0909vow.html) is it. It runs on water!
Puggot
10-09-2005, 15:46
Most gas stations in Illinois blend ethenol in with the fuel. However, the cost of fuel is still arroung $3.00/gal here.
Puggot
10-09-2005, 15:48
We built a one-of-a-kind hydrogen-electric bus for the 1996 Olympics when I was working for Georgia Tech. It needed a lot of H2 to run the generator, but the size of the bus made it a reasonable fuel to use. Pretty cool to watch it run and see water as the only combustion by-product.

But the hydrogen has to be made in a plant that need to get it's energy needs supplied by a power plant.
Vetalia
10-09-2005, 15:59
Doesn't etahnol require more energy to produce than it itself contains? Unless we're getting the energy to produce it from non-petroleum sources, this isn't helping much.

Of course, that's just another argument for nuclear power; energy efficency doesn't really matter in that case, because so much of it can be generated much more efficently than if we combust hydrocarbons.
Killaly
10-09-2005, 16:06
I think you are refering to the hydrogen fuel cells. There is only one (fairly large) problem with them, they take twice as much energy to create then they put out. They would be a great idea if we had a large excess of energy...

Ya, that's the thing. And, ofcourse, you have to get the Hydrogen from th oxygen in water, which means putting it through a generator to do that, and those generators run on fossil fuels. I'd think wind power or solar power would do the trick, generating the energy to run those generators. Actually, i just found out that the amount of the Sun's energy that hits the Earth in one day is equal to all the energy the Human race has ever used! And in France (i think) they're building a wind turbine that's almost twice the hight of the Statue of Liberty! I wish Canada was that progressive.....
Santa Barbara
10-09-2005, 16:10
alternate fuel source (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/09/09/backpack.reut/index.html)? I imagine smaller and more ergonomic versions of this could be made to harness energy not just from walking, but any other human activity...
Laerod
10-09-2005, 16:26
alternate fuel source (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/09/09/backpack.reut/index.html)? I imagine smaller and more ergonomic versions of this could be made to harness energy not just from walking, but any other human activity...There's another idea that's been proposed in a contest that sees special sidewalks being built that convert the energy of being stepped on into electricity.
Bolol
10-09-2005, 16:51
Maybe this (http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/09/cx_mf_0909vow.html) is it. It runs on water!

I love puns when they make sense!
Myrmidonisia
10-09-2005, 17:20
But the hydrogen has to be made in a plant that need to get it's energy needs supplied by a power plant.
That's why I think electric hybrids are the short term solution. There is a lot of development (http://www.ferret.com.au/articles/55/0c035255.asp) in the field of ultra capacitors. It used to be that you needed a container the size of a 55 gallon drum to hold a charge of a farad. Now, there are devices the size of a Coke can that can hold 2600 farads.

Why am I looking at capacitors? The charging rate of a capacitor exceeds a battery by gazillions of times. So two things are possible. First, you could store energy in the capacitor as fast as you can pump gas, now. That means that re-filling the car isn't any harder than what we do know. All you need is a very high current source and you're ready to go.

Second, there is a large amount of kinetic energy available when the car is moving. My car is about 4000 lb, and when I'm driving 70 or 80 mph, there is a bunch of joules just waiting to be captured. A battery could never absorb the energy as fast as a capacitor, so we just dissipate the energy into the ultra cap and let it slowly recharge a storage battery.

The only thing that batteries do better than capacitors is maintain a steady output as the load increases. We would still need a battery to provide the 'power' to the motor, but that's about it. It would maintain a charge from both the kinetic energy reclamation and from the bank of ultra cap storage cells.

This stuff is possible today. It's just economics that's holding us back.
Aldranin
10-09-2005, 18:54
Maybe I'm not reading this right, but E85 doesn't sound like much of an improvement, if any kind of improvement, unless you're a bigot that doesn't want to use dirty foreign oil or an environmentalist that likes trees and cute animals more than people and the economy. But, like I said, I could be reading this wrong.
Myrmidonisia
10-09-2005, 22:03
Maybe I'm not reading this right, but E85 doesn't sound like much of an improvement, if any kind of improvement, unless you're a bigot that doesn't want to use dirty foreign oil or an environmentalist that likes trees and cute animals more than people and the economy. But, like I said, I could be reading this wrong.
Using a mixture with 15 percent petroleum is better than 100 percent, if the resource is not being renewed, isn't it?
Super-power
10-09-2005, 22:05
Alternative fuel development pace speeds up due to high gas prices.
Excellent, just as I was anticipating....
CSW
10-09-2005, 22:38
But the hydrogen has to be made in a plant that need to get it's energy needs supplied by a power plant.
Which can be made in a nuclear, natural gas, wind or solar plant.
Daistallia 2104
11-09-2005, 12:13
Back in the mid 70s, they had something called gasohol, which sounds a lot like you are talking about. It never became very popular and eventually disappeared from the market. I don't know why but it could be there wasn't much difference in price.

Psst - E85 isgasohol.

As for the net energy balance, it depends on the raw materials used, but it is achievable - and, AFAIK has been achieved in Brazil. Brazil uses sugar cane and burns the residue to fire the plants. They produce enough energy to sell electric energy to the local utilities.


But it's a big question in the US or Europe, where we don't grow sugarcane in sufficient quantities. And yes, I know Texas and Florida grow it, but hardly enough to fuel the nation.
BackwoodsSquatches
11-09-2005, 12:26
Psst - E85 isgasohol.

As for the net energy balance, it depends on the raw materials used, but it is achievable - and, AFAIK has been achieved in Brazil. Brazil uses sugar cane and burns the residue to fire the plants. They produce enough energy to sell electric energy to the local utilities.


But it's a big question in the US or Europe, where we don't grow sugarcane in sufficient quantities. And yes, I know Texas and Florida grow it, but hardly enough to fuel the nation.


Becuase we grow an abundance of sugar beets.
Ianarabia
11-09-2005, 12:50
Which can be made in a nuclear, natural gas, wind or solar plant.

Which means a huge out lay of money not only that but for Solar and Wind power it takes up a huge amount of space. Natural gas prices are running high anyway, not to mention the enviromental aspect, why produce a clean fuel which when produced creates pollution.

I believe we have to balance all these things out.
Glinde Nessroe
11-09-2005, 13:07
Haha "just look out at all the good things corn cob bob"

Whats worse was finding out there was a man inside that suit *tear
Daistallia 2104
11-09-2005, 17:30
Becuase we grow an abundance of sugar beets.


Yes, and? I know of no alcohol plants that burn sugarbeet residue and sell their excess energy. When they can do that, sugarbeets will be germaine.