NationStates Jolt Archive

1) Boba Fett is not a clone, his father was not Jango Fett, and he himself was not born with the name Boba Fett.

or

1) Boba Fett is a clone of his father Jango Fett, who named him such when he was created.

2) The Clones were not the army of the Republic and had no connection to any Fett. They were ruled by the Clonemasters and were intent on Galactic Domination during the Clone Wars. The Clones were defeated by the Army of the Republic. Droids played no role worthy of mention in the Clone Wars.

or

2) The Clones were the Army of the Republic, cloned from Jango Fett and used to combat the Seperatist Droid Army. The Clones later evolved into the Stormtroopers of the Galactic Empire.

3) Emperor Palpatine was not a Sith, he was not secretly named Darth Sidious, what he was was simply a user of the Dark Side of the Force. Such users, often called Dark Jedi, are not Sith by default.

or

3) Empreor Palapatine was a Sith Lord by the name of Darth Sidious, Apprentice to Darth Plageus the Wise and follower of the Sith ideals.

4) Obi-Wan Kenobi's direct teacher in the Jedi Arts was Yoda, not Qui-Gon Jinn.

or

4) Obi-Wan Kenobi was instructed by Qui-Gon Jinn, who was in turn instructed by Count Dooku, who was in turn instructed by Yoda.

The first option of each pair represents the fact as depicted in the Original Star Wars Trilogy, Episodes IV, V, and VI, and the novels, comic books, and video games which followed. That collection of additional works is referred to as the Expanded Universe. The second option of each pair represents the facts as depicted in the New Star Wars Trilogy, Episodes I, II, and III, and the novels, comic books, and video games which have been created along similar lines. These are referred to as the Prequels. As can be seen from these few examples, the two differe on many points. Some points are minor. Some are not. Which do you accept as Truth?

Many people point to the Prequels as being Truth, since the Expanded Universe is largely written by Non-Lucas people and thus are beneath the authority of the series creator. However, they overlook the many contradictions within the movies themselves, created by Lucas himself, so merely 'What Lucas said' doesn't quite cut it.

I, personally, accept the Expanded Universe over the Prequels. My main argument is based on "I got here first, so ha!" The Original Trilogy and Expanded Universe were written before the Prequels, information from the Prequels should have been taken from what already existed. The Prequels are what deviated from already set parameters, not the other way around. After all, if you say "John first met Sally when he was seventeen", and you are correct, and then you say "John first started talking to Sally when he was three" you must be incorrect. Since it's rather likely that Obi-Wan did, in fact, know who his teacher was when he spoke to Luke in Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back then it must make the later contradictory statement incorrect.

Also, I find the Expanded Universe to simply be better than the Prequels. Even overlooking to various contradictions, I find the works based off the Original Trilogy to be more enjoyable than the new products. I'm not saying that all the new works are bad, merely that the Originals were better.

What do you think?

If it aint "Canon", it didnt happen.

You know what I mean.

1. I don't remember anything about Boba Fett's relatives in V and VI.

2. I don't remember anything about the clone wars beyond something that everyone knew about but no one spoke about in IV.

3. I don't remember anything about the Emperor's name in IV, V, and VI.

4. Obi Wan Kenobi is a liar.

BackwoodsSquatches, I covered that in second paragraph, since even the Canon movies contradict each other. You answer isn't an answer.

Pantylvania, this thread is talking about movies and the Expanded Universe, which is all the novels, video games, and comic books that aren't the movies, merely based upon the movies.

I read a large portion of the books, have seen all the movies, and had a streak where I got bored enough to read all of the StarWars database's information on the official site (can't remember most of it, but it sure bought up time when I was suffering from insomnia), and I stick to the Expanded Universe. It has better continuity, is far more developed, etc.

When I heard about Lucas making movies involving the Clone Wars, I was excited..I'd remembered stuff about it from the books and how I'd been wanting to know/see alot more. I was rather let down when they completely ignored the books.

I like the Expanded Universe better.

the Prequals tried to squash the Fall of the Republic (which wasn't really a fall but a willing transistion.) the Fall of the Jedi (which in the Prequels, needed to fall, they were too arrogant.) the rise of the Sith (hmmmm.... thought the sith was only two per Yoda, a master and an Apprentice... so Master Sidious had 2 apprentices at the same time? Darth Maul and Count Doku? [Doku used the dark force powers in II]) and cover the Clone Wars (stupid attempt really.)

I even hate the Director's edition of Episode 4, 5, 6. too cut and dried... ties up all loose ends and makes everything Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy.

I mean really, if his 'throne world' was happy he was gone, then he had no business being 'Emporer.'

EU, IMO. Its just better, and it doesnt have crappy acting and screenwriting in...well...some of it :P

(Does EU include the Holiday Special? Please say no...)

EU, IMO. Its just better, and it doesnt have crappy acting and screenwriting in...well...some of it :P

(Does EU include the Holiday Special? Please say no...)[dry heaves] gotta take the good with the bad...


that also includes the Ewok Adventure, Droids... [more Dry Heaves]

Expanded universe is my canon. I think Lucas is being a little too pridefull and a lot of a jerk to ignore what previous writers did to expand and enrichen(is this a word) his universe. The least Lucas could have done was take these writers into a big meeting, listen to their views about SW and what the Prequels should be like, and then do something similar to all the talk..

I do enjoy the prequels because of all the fighting and killing in 2 and 3, but they...they..they are just so flippin shallow. Good God

Expanded Universe or the Revisionist Prequels?
Heh, kinda like how I argue the Republic wasn't necessary and that the Separatists weren't really that bad.

BTW Klonor, there isn't any sort of anti-federal (that's to say, opposed to both a Galactic Empire and/or Republic) protagonist group in any of the Expanded Universe, is there?

14. Obi Wan Kenobi is a liar.
Not really a “liar”, he just tells things from "a certain point of view" to avoid confusion and/or emotional trauma.

Come on people, it’s Lucas’s creation. Nobody has a right to say what is cannon and what isn’t, except him. I only accept as cannon the things that he has specially, at one time, said are. This includes some stuff from EU, including the Sith Empire, the first KOTOR game (light side ending) and Shadow of the Empire (I think, cant‘ remember).

Heh, kinda like how I argue the Republic wasn't necessary and that the Separatists weren't really that bad.

BTW Klonor, there isn't any sort of anti-federal (that's to say, opposed to both a Galactic Empire and/or Republic) protagonist group in any of the Expanded Universe, is there?
Separatists Rule! Go Nute Gunry!

Okay, if you simply refuse to acknowledge the EU purely because it's not Lucas-written, then I'll ask you a different question: Which do you consider Truth, the Original Trilogy or the Prequels? As I've said, the two disagree on so many things.

Merely being Canon doesn't mean it all adds up, and there are so many contradictions between the Originals and the Prequels that it's almost a necessity to disbelieve one.

And besides, if he uses some stuff from the novels he should use all of it. Coruscant, the name and description of the seat of government, is from the Expanded Universe. Kashyyk, the name and description of the Wookie homeworld, is from the Expanded Universe. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that the word Sith isn't said a single time in the entirety of the Original Trilogy. There's more.

Lucas obviously reads the Expanded Universe and obviously accepts parts of it as Canon, I think the way he picks and choses just reflects badly on the whole thing.

EDIT: And yeah, there are a bunch of anarchist groups, local independent movements, etc. that oppose both the Republic and the Empire

Separatists Rule! Go Nute Gunry!
You said it! :)

...he just tells things from "a certain point of view" to avoid confusion and/or emotional trauma.in short, he's a liar

Follow me here for a second:
1) The movie Dune is not Dune has nothing to do with the Dune Universe it is merely a film inspired by the novel Dune.
2) The Star Wars novels are not Star Wars have little to do with Star Wars Universe they are merely Novels inspired by the books.
Basically Star Wars was a movie first and the books were spinnoffs. Episodes I-III are pretty much contiguos with Episodes IV-VI and that's the timeline. Almost all the contradictions you note are not between the origional trilogy and the prequells but between the Movies and the SWEU novels. The movies trump the novels. I'd no more add SWEU histories to Bobba Fett and Empporer Palpatine than I would 'weirding modules' to the Dune series.

Coruscant, the name and description of the seat of government, is from the Expanded Universe. Kashyyk, the name and description of the Wookie homeworld, is from the Expanded Universe. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that the word Sith isn't said a single time in the entirety of the Original Trilogy.maybe the game programmers asked Lucas for the names of some things that were planned for episodes I-III

Follow me here for a second:
1) The movie Dune is not Dune has nothing to do with the Dune Universe it is merely a film inspired by the novel Dune.
2) The Star Wars novels are not Star Wars have little to do with Star Wars Universe they are merely Novels inspired by the books.
Basically Star Wars was a movie first and the books were spinnoffs. Episodes I-III are pretty much contiguos with Episodes IV-VI and that's the timeline. Almost all the contradictions you note are not between the origional trilogy and the prequells but between the Movies and the SWEU novels. The movies trump the novels. I'd no more add SWEU histories to Bobba Fett and Empporer Palpatine than I would 'weirding modules' to the Dune series.but didn't George Lucas himself write the First Star Wars Novel?

The novels and such have been in production since 1991, the first mention of Coruscant was in Heir to the Empire, a novel by Timothy Zahn, and included name, descrpition, and minor history. This was before any talk of the Prequels. Lucas himself has stated that he got the name and idea from Zahn and the following books.

You want more movie/movie contradictions?

Why don't Owen and Beru Lars recognize the 'droids in the beginning of Episode IV? They owned C-3PO in Episode II.

Why doesn't Darth Vader recognize the 'droids in Episode V? If he actually built C-3PO and used R2-D2 for so many years you'd think he'd at least remember them. Do I expect "3PO? Is that you? Oh, I'm so happy to see you! We have to hug and catch up on old times!", no, but I do expect some acknowledgement.

Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the 'droids in Episode IV? In fact, he says that he doesn't remember ever owning a 'droid at all. If he was with R2 for the better part of a decade and 3PO for many years you'd think he'd remember something. Hell, it doesn't even have to be right away, but you'd think that somewhere along the line you'd get a "You know, these 'droids seem familiar...."

In Episode VI Luke asks Leia what she remembers of her mother, her real mother, and Leia reponds that she doesn't remember much since her mother died when she was very young. According to Episode III their mother died in childbirth, how could she remember anything?

Do the entire movies hinge on these contradictions? No. Would they effect the outcome of the entire series if they were corrected? No. But they do exist, and many more as well.

but didn't George Lucas himself write the First Star Wars Novel?

Nope. There are novelizations of all the movies (I own all of them) but they are all adapted for print and typed up by people who weren't Lucas.

Why argue over which is true; Alternative A or Alternative B when both are parts of a WORK OF FICTION?

George Lucas created Star Wars, the movies and his writing are G-canon

The Expanded Universe is C-Canon (Kotor, JA, NJO et cetera), provided it does not conflict with G-canon, then it is on the same par as G-canon.

T-Canon, works that contradict other canonical works.

N-Canon, is not canon, this contains what it scenarios and the like.

Why don't Owen and Beru Lars recognize the 'droids in the beginning of Episode IV? They owned C-3PO in Episode II.
C-3PO is part of a large line of droids produced by the same company, and the two were getting pretty old by the time of EpIV. How well do you remember what your first toaster looked like, espcially if it came back all gold-plated with a different personality.

Why doesn't Darth Vader recognize the 'droids in Episode V? If he actually built C-3PO and used R2-D2 for so many years you'd think he'd at least remember them. Do I expect "3PO? Is that you? Oh, I'm so happy to see you! We have to hug and catch up on old times!", no, but I do expect some acknowledgement.
There was in one of the recent comics a scene between Vader and the head of C-3PO, a little touching really if you want to Google it, but who'se to say Vader didn't recognize his old droid? Just becuase we never see it happen in the movies doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.

Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the 'droids in Episode IV? In fact, he says that he doesn't remember ever owning a 'droid at all. If he was with R2 for the better part of a decade and 3PO for many years you'd think he'd remember something. Hell, it doesn't even have to be right away, but you'd think that somewhere along the line you'd get a "You know, these 'droids seem familiar...."
Obi-Wan also said that Vader killed Luke's father. We all know how true that little nugget of info was. Obi could've recognized them, but decided it would be better to be quiet rather then say "Oh, I know that droid, that's your father's R2 unit, who later became Darth Vader and...oops..."

In Episode VI Luke asks Leia what she remembers of her mother, her real mother, and Leia reponds that she doesn't remember much since her mother died when she was very young. According to Episode III their mother died in childbirth, how could she remember anything?
The Force works in mysterious ways, or she was thinking about Organa's wife by mistake.

The novels and such have been in production since 1991, the first mention of Coruscant was in Heir to the Empire, a novel by Timothy Zahn, and included name, descrpition, and minor history. This was before any talk of the Prequels. Lucas himself has stated that he got the name and idea from Zahn and the following books.

You want more movie/movie contradictions?

Why don't Owen and Beru Lars recognize the 'droids in the beginning of Episode IV? They owned C-3PO in Episode II.no they didn't. they owned C3PO in Episode 4, and one droid may look like another. Remember, C3PO's memory was wiped at the end of Episode III.

Why doesn't Darth Vader recognize the 'droids in Episode V? If he actually built C-3PO and used R2-D2 for so many years you'd think he'd at least remember them. Do I expect "3PO? Is that you? Oh, I'm so happy to see you! We have to hug and catch up on old times!", no, but I do expect some acknowledgement.this was my question too until I realized, that he never came face to face with either C3PO or R2D2 in episode 4, 5, or 6. in the latter trillogy, the droids never encountered the Sith Lord.

Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the 'droids in Episode IV? In fact, he says that he doesn't remember ever owning a 'droid at all. If he was with R2 for the better part of a decade and 3PO for many years you'd think he'd remember something. Hell, it doesn't even have to be right away, but you'd think that somewhere along the line you'd get a "You know, these 'droids seem familiar...."He never 'Owned' any of the droids, R2 was with Anikin most of the time and C3PO was with Amidala. and two, Ben's attitude towards the droids may have been more like your relationship with your Television. nice to have around but after a while, all T.V.'s look the same.

In Episode VI Luke asks Leis what she remembers of her mother, her real mother, and Leia reponds that she doesn't remember much since her mother died when she was very young. According to Episode III their mother died in childbirth, how could she remember anything?this was my argument too. One of the reasons why I hated the Prequels.

Do the entire movies hing on these contradictions? No. Would they effect the outcome of the entire series if they were corrected? No. But they do exist, and many more as well.

and lets not forget... if the Emperor knew that some of the Jedi still lived (end of Episode III, he stated, if you don't find a body, then [Yoda] isn't dead) and Anikin knew that Ben still lived, you'ld think that finding and ending the threat of the Jedi would be paramount on his list of things to do.

then there is the fact that Ben said that Yoda trained him in the ways of the force, so what happened to Qui Gon? forgot him already? And if he had to teach Yoda and Ben to master the ways of the force beyond death, How did Anakin learn this? (his form appears at the end of Episode 6)

what happened at Naboo? surely someone there would'be known that Amidala was Pregnant, yet at her funeral, she showed no signs of carring children. no smaller caskets to represent the unborn child(ren) so wouldn't there be rumors of offspring?

then the fact that per Yoda, only two sith are around at a time, A master and an Apprentice.... so if Darth Maul was the Emperor's Apprentice, what was Count Dooku?

C-3PO is part of a large line of droids produced by the same company, and the two were getting pretty old by the time of EpIV. How well do you remember what your first toaster looked like, espcially if it came back all gold-plated with a different personality.

Ah HA! Another contradiction I was waiting for somebody else to mention. If C-3PO is a mass produced, standard model (As can be inferred from seeing no less than two identical copies of him in the Originals) then how was he built by Annakin in Episode I?

There was in one of the recent comics a scene between Vader and the head of C-3PO, a little touching really if you want to Google it, but who'se to say Vader didn't recognize his old droid? Just becuase we never see it happen in the movies doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.

And just because it might have happened doesn't mean it did. Unless somebody mentions it or something on screen implies it, merely "You didn't see it not happen" doesn't quite cut it.

Obi-Wan also said that Vader killed Luke's father. We all know how true that little nugget of info was. Obi could've recognized them, but decided it would be better to be quiet rather then say "Oh, I know that droid, that's your father's R2 unit, who later became Darth Vader and...oops..."

Certain point of view and all that aside, he could have mentioned how the 'droids were both used by the Organas of Alderaan and that he spent time with them (And Lukes father) during the Clone Wars and before. In fact, he could have even mentioned that both were there when Vader killed Lukes faher (Back to that 'certain point of view' thing). He doesn't even have to touch the 'Vader = Annakin' thing.

The Force works in mysterious ways, or she was thinking about Organa's wife by mistake.

He said it pretty plainly, "Your real mother". Not 'first' (Which could mean her adoptive fathers first wife), not 'adoptive' (Which could mean Organas wife, regardless of first/second/three hundred and twenty-eighth), not 'in law' (Which could mean horror from beyond the stars), but 'real'. The implications are obviously birth.

Nope. There are novelizations of all the movies (I own all of them) but they are all adapted for print and typed up by people who weren't Lucas.guess again, the First Star Wars novel, A New Hope was written by the G man himself. and he authorized the other novelizations of the movie. go and check it out... I did.

Why don't Owen and Beru Lars recognize the 'droids in the beginning of Episode IV? They owned C-3PO in Episode II.

Didn't 3PO change skins in the interim? That's a pretty big difference. Of course, it would be more of a problem had either Owen or Beru spent much time with 3PO in IV... but Owen just bought the droids, then gave them to Luke to clean up. There is no indication he had much opportunity to recognize either of them.

Why doesn't Darth Vader recognize the 'droids in Episode V? If he actually built C-3PO and used R2-D2 for so many years you'd think he'd at least remember them. Do I expect "3PO? Is that you? Oh, I'm so happy to see you! We have to hug and catch up on old times!", no, but I do expect some acknowledgement.

Why? Darth Vader isn't exactly advertising that he was previously Anakin Skywalker. I figure he does recognize one or both of the droids, but just doesn't give a shit -- or at least, he doesn't want to come off as giving a shit. He's fucking Darth Vader.

Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the 'droids in Episode IV? In fact, he says that he doesn't remember ever owning a 'droid at all. If he was with R2 for the better part of a decade and 3PO for many years you'd think he'd remember something. Hell, it doesn't even have to be right away, but you'd think that somewhere along the line you'd get a "You know, these 'droids seem familiar...."

This is the clearest example of a contradiction. I might have to give you this one. Of course, Obi Wan was a coy and deceitful bastard... he may have thought there was some reason not to divulge too much. At any rate, it doesn't "ruin" the Prequels for me.

In Episode VI Luke asks Leia what she remembers of her mother, her real mother, and Leia reponds that she doesn't remember much since her mother died when she was very young. According to Episode III their mother died in childbirth, how could she remember anything?

There is no textual evidence that Leia knows, at this point, that she was adopted. Neither is there any textual evidence that Luke knows that the mother Leia knew was not her real mother. No contradiction here... just two lost siblings working with terribly incomplete information, and making a few incorrect assumptions.

Ah HA! Another contradiction I was waiting for somebody else to mention. If C-3PO is a mass produced, standard model (As can be inferred from seeing no less than two identical copies of him in the Originals) then how was he built by Annakin in Episode I?to be fair, a person can build a car and it can and probably will, look like other Mass Produced Cars. Remember, he did state he was building a protocol Droid for his Mother, so the form would be the same, if not the functions (after all, he probably didn't have the equiptment to mold metal to any form, thus had to build it to 'Standards' that were around then.) my question tho is that then that would mean that the protocol droids did not change in shape or form for about 30 yrs then? rather unusual since you have ships changing design so rapidly, but not the droids?

no they didn't. they owned C3PO in Episode 4, and one droid may look like another. Remember, C3PO's memory was wiped at the end of Episode III.

Yes, the did. They owned C-3PO in EPisode II. Annakin is back on Tatooine looking for his mother and who does he stumble upon but his long lost 'son'.

this was my question too until I realized, that he never came face to face with either C3PO or R2D2 in episode 4, 5, or 6. in the latter trillogy, the droids never encountered the Sith Lord.

R2 never comes face-to-mask with Vader, true, but 3PO does during the Carbon freezing of Solo in Episode V and it can assumed that his blasted body was shown to Vader after the Stormtroopers blasted him ("Sir, this 'droid was sneaking around.") However, since it's just as likely that the troopers just threw him out, or only showed him to a minor officer, I'm not going to thrust that one out.

He never 'Owned' any of the droids, R2 was with Anikin most of the time and C3PO was with Amidala. and two, Ben's attitude towards the droids may have been more like your relationship with your Television. nice to have around but after a while, all T.V.'s look the same.

If you go through that much combat and that many traumatic experiences with your TV, you're going to remember it.

Merely being 'droids doesn't make them instantly forgotten, so many things happened that they should have stuck in his mind (Especially considering Jedi mental power).

Besides, he could have said "I never owned these 'droids, but I do remember the one who did."

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Anyway, this is all horribly off-topic. This thread isn't a debate thread arguing whether or not there ae contradictions between the movies, it's asking about the Revised History of the Prequels vs the Expanded Universe. Let's try to stay on topic.

The movies trump the novels. I'd no more add SWEU histories to Bobba Fett and Empporer Palpatine than I would 'weirding modules' to the Dune series.

Groan...weirding modules...worse than that was the rain at the end...

As someone who has been reading comic books since 1989, I can't get in a huff over continuity. Just suspend your disbelief and enjoy the ride.

and lets not forget... if the Emperor knew that some of the Jedi still lived (end of Episode III, he stated, if you don't find a body, then [Yoda] isn't dead) and Anikin knew that Ben still lived, you'ld think that finding and ending the threat of the Jedi would be paramount on his list of things to do.

Right. But how exactly does one find a Jedi who has consciously decided to conceal himself? Even if one is a Sith lord.

then there is the fact that Ben said that Yoda trained him in the ways of the force, so what happened to Qui Gon? forgot him already?

Three things:

1. Yoda was apparently involved in teaching the art of the light-saber to most or all of the younglings. Obi-Wan is likely to have studied under him when learning precisely the basic skills that Luke is attempting to master.

2. After Qui-Gon's death, although Obi-Wan attained the rank of Jedi Knight and later Master, he clearly continued to learn from Yoda and the other Masters. Moreover, we know that Yoda had lessons to teach him following the conclusion of Episode III.

3. Obi-Wan was trying to make Yoda sound impressive in order to inspire Luke to make the mysterious and potentially dangerous journey to Dagobah. Given that Luke remembered Obi-Wan as a powerful mentor, which sounds better: "Go to Yoda. He's really good." or "Go to Yoda. He taught me everything I know." ???

And if he had to teach Yoda and Ben to master the ways of the force beyond death, How did Anakin learn this? (his form appears at the end of Episode 6)

We already know that Anakin was practically made of midi-chlorians. He could do most anything he wanted "by instinct." Doesn't seem like a problem to me.

what happened at Naboo? surely someone there would'be known that Amidala was Pregnant, yet at her funeral, she showed no signs of carring children. no smaller caskets to represent the unborn child(ren) so wouldn't there be rumors of offspring?

So what if there were?

then the fact that per Yoda, only two sith are around at a time, A master and an Apprentice.... so if Darth Maul was the Emperor's Apprentice, what was Count Dooku?

Clearly, he was Palpatine's apprentice after Maul. I don't think we see Dooku at all in Episode I, do we?

Clearly, he was Palpatine's apprentice after Maul. I don't think we see Dooku at all in Episode I, do we?
Correct. During the events of Episode I, Dooku was living the high life as the Count of some wealthy planet, (starts with an S) after leaving the Jedi behind.

Dooku or Darth Tyranus was the Count of Serenno.

Ah HA! Another contradiction I was waiting for somebody else to mention. If C-3PO is a mass produced, standard model (As can be inferred from seeing no less than two identical copies of him in the Originals) then how was he built by Annakin in Episode I?

Ever buy a "make your own radio" kit?

And just because it might have happened doesn't mean it did. Unless somebody mentions it or something on screen implies it, merely "You didn't see it not happen" doesn't quite cut it.

Yes it does. The point here is to resolve "contradictions." And two seemingly contradictory things do not make a contradiction unless there is no reasonable way that both could be true. If there is, then they may be awkward, but they do not constitute a clear contradiction.

Certain point of view and all that aside, he could have mentioned how the 'droids were both used by the Organas of Alderaan and that he spent time with them (And Lukes father) during the Clone Wars and before. In fact, he could have even mentioned that both were there when Vader killed Lukes faher (Back to that 'certain point of view' thing). He doesn't even have to touch the 'Vader = Annakin' thing.

Yeah, but why would he? Ben Kenobi comes off as a very "need to know" kind of guy. There are a lot of things he doesn't tell Luke.

Indeed, I can think of some very good reasons that he might have kept that knowledge to himself. Had he given Luke any inkling that the droids "knew" his father, Luke might start asking questions... and even if 3PO's memory was wiped, 3PO could still translate for R2 -- who knew quite a bit!! Now, while R2 is a savvy little droid, would Ben really want to take the risk that R2 wouldn't know better than to tell Luke all sorts of things that, in Ben's mind, he was not ready to hear?

He said it pretty plainly, "Your real mother". Not 'first' (Which could mean her adoptive fathers first wife), not 'adoptive' (Which could mean Organas wife, regardless of first/second/three hundred and twenty-eighth), not 'in law' (Which could mean horror from beyond the stars), but 'real'. The implications are obviously birth.

Yes, but you're the one that says "just because it might have happened doesn't mean it did," right? And when does Luke find out that Leia was not raised by her real mother? All he knows for sure is that she was not raised by her father -- Darth Vader. Moreover, why should we think she knows she was adopted?

Yes, the did. They owned C-3PO in EPisode II. Annakin is back on Tatooine looking for his mother and who does he stumble upon but his long lost 'son'.I'll stand corrected, I thought that he came across the droid Wattro's junk shop. when they were informed that she was sold to the owens... but Going by memory and won't argue it.

R2 never comes face-to-mask with Vader, true, but 3PO does during the Carbon freezing of Solo in Episode V and it can assumed that his blasted body was shown to Vader after the Stormtroopers blasted him ("Sir, this 'droid was sneaking around.") However, since it's just as likely that the troopers just threw him out, or only showed him to a minor officer, I'm not going to thrust that one out.but again, the the droid was strapped to Chewbacca's back, and with all the activity going on, he wouldn't be paying attention to what amounts to a talking backpack. and before you say "he could've heard C3PO's voice" remember, all the activity going around and two, DV wouldn't be standing near the prisioners.

If you go through that much combat and that many traumatic experiences with your TV, you're going to remember it.what combat did BEN and R2 go through... It was mostly ANAKIN and R2.

Merely being 'droids doesn't make them instantly forgotten, so many things happened that they should have stuck in his mind (Especially considering Jedi mental power).Remember Tantooie
Barkeep: "Hey, we don't serve their kind here"
Luke: "Pardon"
Barkeep: "Your Droids, they not welcome here."
so you know that the city (since the bar had a droid detector - It goes off when the Droids enter, not Luke and Ben, but the Droids) and possibly the planet has a thing against sentient machines. (the droids wear restraining bolts, and the Jawas move freely.)

And two, it's been at least 18 years since he last saw the droids, (or any droid for that matter,) however, I think he did reconize the droids, remember his attitude when he first saw R2? it was almost like a clandesine meeting of two friends in the presence of one who was suppose to be ignorant about such things (Luke).


Besides, he could have said "I never owned these 'droids, but I do remember the one who did."blame the writers then, However, I think he was trying to keep the fact that Vader was his father from Luke, and that means keeping Luke ingorant of the droids relationship with their father. After all, the droid (R2) would probably answer questions that Obi wan would rather preferre remain unasked.

Anyway, this is all horribly off-topic. This thread isn't a debate thread arguing whether or not there ae contradictions between the movies, it's asking about the Revised History of the Prequels vs the Expanded Universe. Let's try to stay on topic.Well, pointing out mistakes in the Movies is one way of showing preference to the Expanded Universe. and I would rather the EU, more realistic.

my question tho is that then that would mean that the protocol droids did not change in shape or form for about 30 yrs then? rather unusual since you have ships changing design so rapidly, but not the droids?

For purposes of continuity, it doesn't matter.

There might be a whole set of newer, snappier droids running around... but as long as it is still relatively common for people to hold on to the still-functioning older models, there is no reason that Owen should be surprised to see one.

Especially way out there on Tatooine, buying second-hand and stolen droids off of Jawas.

For purposes of continuity, it doesn't matter.

There might be a whole set of newer, snappier droids running around... but as long as it is still relatively common for people to hold on to the still-functioning older models, there is no reason that Owen should be surprised to see one.

Especially way out there on Tatooine, buying second-hand and stolen droids off of Jawas.
Case in point:
The AK-47, invented 50 years ago, and still in common use around the world.
If it aint broke, dont fix it.
The same could (convivably) be applied to droids. If the C-xPO model works (except for the personality :P), why change it?

Case in point:
The AK-47, invented 50 years ago, and still in common use around the world.
If it aint broke, dont fix it.
The same could (convivably) be applied to droids. If the C-xPO model works (except for the personality :P), why change it?oh, I dunno... reading some books as well as watching the movies...



A Mute Button would've been a BIIIIG improvement :D

Guys, this is not the point of this thread. Please stop debating whether or not there are contradictions between the Originals and the Prequels. We are dragging this off topic.

The point of this thread is questioning which people consider to be the 'True' events of the Star Wars Galaxy, the Prequels or the Expanded Universe. Whether or not there are contradictions between the movies isn't that relevant.

Guys, this is not the point of this thread. Please stop debating whether or not there are contradictions between the Originals and the Prequels. We are dragging this off topic.

The point of this thread is questioning which people consider to be the 'True' events of the Star Wars Galaxy, the Prequels or the Expanded Universe. Whether or not there are contradictions between the movies isn't that relevant.if going by what is considered to be the 'True' events of the Star Wars Galaxy, then the answer is simple, the movies. Why? because George Lucas is the creator of the Star Wars Universe, thus his interpretations and vision superscedes anyone else's unless he, himself, says so.

Okay, do people even read my posts?

The point of this thread is questioning which people consider to be the 'True' events of the Star Wars Galaxy, the Prequels or the Expanded Universe.

What do you think?

I'm not asking what's officially the truth, I'm asking what people, the viewers and the readers and the players, consider to be the truth. So far, from the very few responces we've gotten that have been on-topic, the Expanded Universe is really winning out over the Prequels.

Guys, this is not the point of this thread. Please stop debating whether or not there are contradictions between the Originals and the Prequels. We are dragging this off topic.

The point of this thread is questioning which people consider to be the 'True' events of the Star Wars Galaxy, the Prequels or the Expanded Universe. Whether or not there are contradictions between the movies isn't that relevant.if you're asking for True events, then what the creator of the universe (George Lucas) presents is what is considered true events,

If you are asking what we prefere, what George Lucas has given us vs. what the Authors and other licencees of the title Star Wars has given us, then you will get the comparasions. Now I admit, those comparasions should be between the Prequels and the books, but when you examine the Prequels, you will get comparisions and mistakes between the prequels and the middle episodes.

it's some of those mistakes that make the Prequels inadequate to me.

Can any of you provide me with titles of books with an alternative
pre-E4 history?

For myself, I always pictured stuff some what different.
Like R2D2 & C3PO having been around for centuries maybe.
Certainly more than 30 years.


I read the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy,
"Courtship of Princess Leia", "Truce at Bakura",
the new jedi training camp trilogy with that 'star crusher' ship,
one other book within 5 years after "Jedi", and the first in
the Han Solo Corellia trilogy.

Ideally anything written before Zahn's trilogy to fill in alternative
takes on the clone wars, Dark Jedi / Sith (Vader was always lord of the sith),
fall of the republic, jedi being hunted down, etc...




Lucas' movies could be the 'official' line,
and EU could be histories written from a different point of view...
Histories from the point of view of the "non-powerful" if you will.


your eyes deceive you, trust your feelings

Guys, this is not the point of this thread. Please stop debating whether or not there are contradictions between the Originals and the Prequels. We are dragging this off topic.

No, we're not. These issues are highly relevant to the issue at hand. After all, if "true" means the same thing in the Star Wars universe as it does in the real world, contradictory events cannot be true. Thus, those of us who defend the Prequels as the real canon are obligated to answer apparent contradictions as best we can. If they really contradict the original trilogy, they cannot really be a part of the same world.

Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the 'droids in Episode IV? In fact, he says that he doesn't remember ever owning a 'droid at all. If he was with R2 for the better part of a decade and 3PO for many years you'd think he'd remember something. Hell, it doesn't even have to be right away, but you'd think that somewhere along the line you'd get a "You know, these 'droids seem familiar...."

obi-wan's first words to r2, when luke is out cold, are "hello there. come here, my little friend." he totally recognizes him, and puts the puzzle together right there that something big is up and he has to come out of hiding. he just doesn't feel the need to tell luke all about it without a few less-than-truthful statements.

1) Boba Fett is not a clone, his father was not Jango Fett, and he himself was not born with the name Boba Fett.

or

1) Boba Fett is a clone of his father Jango Fett, who named him such when he was created.

2) The Clones were not the army of the Republic and had no connection to any Fett. They were ruled by the Clonemasters and were intent on Galactic Domination during the Clone Wars. The Clones were defeated by the Army of the Republic. Droids played no role worthy of mention in the Clone Wars.

or

2) The Clones were the Army of the Republic, cloned from Jango Fett and used to combat the Seperatist Droid Army. The Clones later evolved into the Stormtroopers of the Galactic Empire.

3) Emperor Palpatine was not a Sith, he was not secretly named Darth Sidious, what he was was simply a user of the Dark Side of the Force. Such users, often called Dark Jedi, are not Sith by default.

or

3) Empreor Palapatine was a Sith Lord by the name of Darth Sidious, Apprentice to Darth Plageus the Wise and follower of the Sith ideals.

4) Obi-Wan Kenobi's direct teacher in the Jedi Arts was Yoda, not Qui-Gon Jinn.

or

4) Obi-Wan Kenobi was instructed by Qui-Gon Jinn, who was in turn instructed by Count Dooku, who was in turn instructed by Yoda.

The first option of each pair represents the fact as depicted in the Original Star Wars Trilogy, Episodes IV, V, and VI, and the novels, comic books, and video games which followed. That collection of additional works is referred to as the Expanded Universe. The second option of each pair represents the facts as depicted in the New Star Wars Trilogy, Episodes I, II, and III, and the novels, comic books, and video games which have been created along similar lines. These are referred to as the Prequels. As can be seen from these few examples, the two differe on many points. Some points are minor. Some are not. Which do you accept as Truth?

Many people point to the Prequels as being Truth, since the Expanded Universe is largely written by Non-Lucas people and thus are beneath the authority of the series creator. However, they overlook the many contradictions within the movies themselves, created by Lucas himself, so merely 'What Lucas said' doesn't quite cut it.

I, personally, accept the Expanded Universe over the Prequels. My main argument is based on "I got here first, so ha!" The Original Trilogy and Expanded Universe were written before the Prequels, information from the Prequels should have been taken from what already existed. The Prequels are what deviated from already set parameters, not the other way around. After all, if you say "John first met Sally when he was seventeen", and you are correct, and then you say "John first started talking to Sally when he was three" you must be incorrect. Since it's rather likely that Obi-Wan did, in fact, know who his teacher was when he spoke to Luke in Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back then it must make the later contradictory statement incorrect.

Also, I find the Expanded Universe to simply be better than the Prequels. Even overlooking to various contradictions, I find the works based off the Original Trilogy to be more enjoyable than the new products. I'm not saying that all the new works are bad, merely that the Originals were better.

What do you think?

Let me guess. Your a trekkie right?

BackwoodsSquatches, I covered that in second paragraph, since even the Canon movies contradict each other. You answer isn't an answer.



Im assuming the major contradiction youre reffering to, is the one wherein Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi, tells Luke Skywalker to go to Dagobah, to train from Yoda, "The Jedi Master who trained me."

However, we now know that as a Padawan, Kenobi trained under Qui Gon "Rob Roy" Jinn.

BUT...

We also can be reasonably certain that most, if not all Jedi, start thier training as Younglings, under the tutelage of Yoda himself.
So, ergo, Kenobi was not mistaken when tell Luke he had trained under Yoda.

He was however, completely ommiting his instruction under Qui-Gon, yet thats natural, since Qui-Gon had been dead for nearly two decades, and had little to do with Lukes situation.

But, for the sake of argument, I'll answer your questions.
But you can already tell, I consider most of the EU, to be "not Canon".

1. Boba is indeed a clone of Jango,and was adopted as Jango's son.
1a. The Clone Army were indeed, created from Fett's DNA.

2.. Palapatine was so very much a Sith Master.

3. Both Yoda, and Qui-Gon, are former teachers of Kenobi.

The first option of each pair represents the fact as depicted in the Original Star Wars Trilogy, Episodes IV, V, and VI, and the novels, comic books, and video games which followed. That collection of additional works is referred to as the Expanded Universe. The second option of each pair represents the facts as depicted in the New Star Wars Trilogy, Episodes I, II, and III, and the novels, comic books, and video games which have been created along similar lines. These are referred to as the Prequels. As can be seen from these few examples, the two differe on many points. Some points are minor. Some are not. Which do you accept as Truth?

Many people point to the Prequels as being Truth, since the Expanded Universe is largely written by Non-Lucas people and thus are beneath the authority of the series creator. However, they overlook the many contradictions within the movies themselves, created by Lucas himself, so merely 'What Lucas said' doesn't quite cut it.

I, personally, accept the Expanded Universe over the Prequels. My main argument is based on "I got here first, so ha!" The Original Trilogy and Expanded Universe were written before the Prequels, information from the Prequels should have been taken from what already existed. The Prequels are what deviated from already set parameters, not the other way around. After all, if you say "John first met Sally when he was seventeen", and you are correct, and then you say "John first started talking to Sally when he was three" you must be incorrect. Since it's rather likely that Obi-Wan did, in fact, know who his teacher was when he spoke to Luke in Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back then it must make the later contradictory statement incorrect.

Also, I find the Expanded Universe to simply be better than the Prequels. Even overlooking to various contradictions, I find the works based off the Original Trilogy to be more enjoyable than the new products. I'm not saying that all the new works are bad, merely that the Originals were better.

What do you think?

Wars is owned by Lucas, and therefore Lucas can create whatever he wishes in the universe, even if it creates effective contradiction. (and massive ammounts of it).... S'what warzies get for having no definitive and properly authoritative "cannon" like Trek does.... Basically, with your "cannon" it tatters, it is impossible from this point on to have a ST/SW debate in proper context... SW is a slap-shod Jerry-rigged universe, with no real rules or hard information... It's "fantasy" and not science fiction.

Wars is owned by Lucas, and therefore Lucas can create whatever he wishes in the universe, even if it creates effective contradiction. (and massive ammounts of it).... S'what warzies get for having no definitive and properly authoritative "cannon" like Trek does.... Basically, with your "cannon" it tatters, it is impossible from this point on to have a ST/SW debate in proper context... SW is a slap-shod Jerry-rigged universe, with no real rules or hard information... It's "fantasy" and not science fiction.
Actually SW canon is pretty clear cut. It goes:
-Movies/movie novels/radio plays/ect.
-Nonfiction books
-Novels
-Video Games
-Infinities/Fan Fiction
So if it comes from the mouth of "God" (aka Lucas) then that is the Final Word; as long as it doesn't contradict his Word, then it passes mustard.

Furthermore, Trek is as much "fantasy" as Wars is, the only difference is Trek likes to hide their magic behind technobable like "reroute the phase induction coil power through the quantum storage unit".