NationStates Jolt Archive

I wasn't aware of this myself until a few weeks ago when I read a piece by Stephanie Ericsson called The Ways We Lie, but it seems as if the Jewish 'founding fathers', as well as those religious leaders who met in the Council of Milan, decided to omit what I guess can be considered a vital part of the Old Testament.

Apparently, Adam was not always married with Eve, and beforehand was married with Lilith, who is now known as a Sumerian goddess cast away as a spirit of evil. As most of you know, Eve was crafted from one of Adam's ribs, but unlike Eve, Lilith was from the same 'mud' as Adam, so it would imply that both Adamn and Lilith were equals. Unfortunately for Lilith, she was erased forever from the Old Testament (spefically, Genesis), as I've said before, forever changing feminist history in the Judeo-Catholic world.

Quoted from Ericsson:


Some renegade Catholic feminists introduced me to a view of Lilith that had been supressed during the many centuries when this strong godess was seen only as a spirit of evil. Lilith was a proud goddess who defied Adam's need to control her, attempted negotiations, and when this failed, said adios and left the Garden of Eden.

This omission of Lilith from the Bible was a patriarchal strategy to keep women weak. Omitting the strong-woman archetype of Lilith from Western religions and starting the story with Eve the Rib has helped keep Christian and Jewish women believing they were the lesser sex for thousands of years.


What I'm interested in is how has the Church, including Catholic and all Protestant subdivisions, has reacted to the fact that it's known now that Adam was not always been married to Eve? Furthermore, how do you think this would redefine marriage, divorce, and women in the church, should this issue become more and more important within Christian politics?

-Jon

Wasn't Lilith that uptight chick from the last couple of seasons of Cheers? I've seen her in movies since then and I think she's kinda hot.

I think its probably another example of church lies. It wont make much difference. Its kinda depressing that we keep finding these. Makes you wanna question your beliefs.

Wasn't Lilith that uptight chick from the last couple of seasons of Cheers? I've seen her in movies since then and I think she's kinda hot.


Don't remember, I was saddened when Cheers turned to Frasier, until I started liking Frasier as well. Ohhh yea, Lilith was Fraser's wife, and he too divorced her, and started going out with other girls..dun, dun dun...another one of God's sneaky, sneaky plots.

That sounds familiar,I heard somewhere that Adam had a wife before Eve.I have the strangest feeling it may have been in The Lion,The witch and The Wardrobe.

To be... uhm... "fair", since Adam was the only man around at the time, it is Eve who's the mother of all women nowadays. And since Eve was subservient... well... fill in the blanks.

On the other hand, Kain slew Abel and got heartily banished for it. Kain went off to Nod where he, apparently, 'found his wife'. Which is a bit strange, since there wasn't really supposed to be anyone else, was there? So, you know, maybe he hooked up with Lilith.

And since Abel was dead and everything, maybe all women today are the offspring of Eve and Lilith.

Which explains... absolutely nothing, really.

I heard the story of lilith years ago. She was Adams first wife and then after she left the garden she became evil.
There is also a stroy about lilith killing baby boys that are not circumcised

Yup, and now, if I recall properly, she's called a demon and evil. Guess that's what happens if you refuse God's arranged marriages.

What I'm interested in is how has the Church, including Catholic and all Protestant subdivisions, has reacted to the fact that it's known now that Adam was not always been married to Eve? Furthermore, how do you think this would redefine marriage, divorce, and women in the church, should this issue become more and more important within Christian politics?

-Jon

Those sorts of literalist interpretations of Biblical passages are only a small part of what has been used to justify the oppression of women, but I think you bring up an interesting point about the Church and how poorly it has handled the interpretation of passages relating to women's roles. Instead of interpreting the Bible to see what it says, folks seem to exhibit good ol' confirmation bias and interpret it so that it justifies their current practices. It's happened throughout Christian history, and I imagine there'll still be people doing it until the death of Christianity.

Oppression? Fallacy? Us? nah..... *shifty eyes* They know Jesus! They know!

Most of what you hear today about “Lilith”, like most Neopaganism, is largely a work of modern day fiction. Anyone can write whatever they want about religion in Pre-History, but you are not going to find any ancient stone tablets that contain marks of editing regarding the exclusion of anyone.

What you will find if you dig in to various Talmudic sources, are references to something far more vague. Basically, Lilith is a Screeching Harpy, a Demon of sorts associated with Cats, Owls and Snakes.

This is not an official part of the Torah and was never actually omitted as it was never actually included, but there is a myth which was noted to have some similarity to the original story and may be related in some way, you will find amongst various Pagans versions of stories that seem somehow similar to our own, perhaps they hear whisperings of what Our Prophets have heard in their own searches for truth. That is to say, when Adam was created a woman was created at the same time, each carried different parts of the whole person. Adam was rational, Lilith was emotional, Adam was a builder, Lilith was a destroyer. Adam and Lilith were told to name things, Adam shared his names while Lilith kept her names for things to herself. Adam thought that if everyone used the same names, they would become stronger through cooperation and collective effort for everyone while Lilith preferred the freedom of letting everyone call everything by whatever name they pleased. Because Adam shared his names they became stronger. Adam built walls and houses and tools to hunt and cages for animals and made the earth grow to benefit humanity, Lilith spent most of her time undermining him out of pride and preferring short term solutions to her personal problems. Adam and Lilith wound up avoiding each other for a time, she named fish and he beasts, her part of the Garden flooded and rotted due to her selfishness and his flourished and eventually, they fought, she wanted parts of what he built and Adam killed her, but Death had not been named. Then, when something died it was immediately recreated at the edges of the Garden, this is what happened to Lilith but she cursed Hashem and was herself cursed and became a demon, her nurturing and fertility inverted, her breath causes rot, she drinks the blood of humanity, devours children and her touch cause sterility. Death would not be named until Cane named it later when he committed the first actual murder, Lilith had something to do with this as her serpent did the fall. Between Lilith and Eve, there were two other attempts at creating a woman. One was shaped from the earth, but witnessing the creation terrified Adam and he refused to name it. The second was Adam’s own attempt to create a woman, this was struck down by Hashem as an Abomination. Eve was the last attempt, created from Adam’s Rib, to stand at his side and protect his heart. She also marked the beginning of actual reproduction, Hashem was a little tired of having to recreate everything that died and had to find an acceptable method for life to propagate itself.

There are fertility symbols in some parts of Africa, a sort of fat woman, there is no real reason to associate these with Lilith but many Feminist Neo-Pagan archeologists have chosen to do so.

Well, I think the idea of Ericsson was that since much of the Old Testament was forged from old Sumerian myths, why omit some of these myths? It's understood that the Old Testament might have never had this included within it, however, that's not the point - the point is that whoever wrote the Old Testament, wether one man, or many men over thousands of years, they decided to not include this particular Sumerian legend. And I think that's where people find the problem.

Lilith, she appeared on Neon Genesis Evangelion, right? Actually, she was one of the more bizarre inventions of Judeo-Christian mythology, some kind of attempt to head off feminism 2000 years before it existed, I guess.

Oh, we've known about Lilith for a while now. In fact, she was the second angel in Neon Genesis Evangelion after Adam. She... erm... caused the Third Impact that would probably have destroyed mankind if unhindered.

Like Yeru said, Lilith was not omitted from the Old Testament because she was never in it. Her origins, in relation to Judaism and Christianity, can either be attributed to Jewish biblical exegesis, or a product of the middle ages.

Oh, we've known about Lilith for a while now. In fact, she was the second angel in Neon Genesis Evangelion after Adam. She... erm... caused the Third Impact that would probably have destroyed mankind if unhindered.

Indeed.

What I'm interested in is how has the Church, including Catholic and all Protestant subdivisions, has reacted to the fact that it's known now that Adam was not always been married to Eve?

It's known now? Huh? Someone writes something and now it's known? That logic isn't quite logical.

I built the world.

Now that it's known that I built the world, I think you all owe me a lot on rent payments.

Well, I think the idea of Ericsson was that since much of the Old Testament was forged from old Sumerian myths, why omit some of these myths? It's understood that the Old Testament might have never had this included within it, however, that's not the point - the point is that whoever wrote the Old Testament, wether one man, or many men over thousands of years, they decided to not include this particular Sumerian legend. And I think that's where people find the problem.


If you want a Samarian version of a myth, ask a Samarian. If you want a Neopagan Feminist version of a myth, make one up. Your version is as accurate as theirs.

The qualities that Lilith is endowed with are from the Hebrew or Greek standpoint, feminine qualities. These are also destructive, so it would follow only that destructive people would celebrate them. The family unit is the only stable, repeatable system for human propagation. The chaos of its selfish disruption is killing the west. Alternative plans to have children raised by a faceless state are nightmarish.

Personally, I am content to state that “In His own image He created him, male and female he created them”. Women are also included in “Mankind” as are all Humans.

Well, I meant known widely.

That sounds familiar,I heard somewhere that Adam had a wife before Eve.I have the strangest feeling it may have been in The Lion,The witch and The Wardrobe.

Deffinately the Narnia Chronicals. It said something about the witches being descended from Adam's First Wife Lilith.

I have never heard that Lilith should have been part of the Bible, I was under the impression it existed in serperate religious texts.

It's a Jewish Legend. It's odd though, that so many Christians are skeptical of her.
Drinking the blood of Christ? Perfectly normal.
Couple of Resurecctions? I'm with you.
Bodily ascension into heaven? Check.
World created in seven days? Yupper.
Adam's first wife bitched him out? NOW hold on there...

Well, in Ericsson's essay it's regarded as a "rabbinical legend", and that is believable, since most "rabbinical legends", including most out of the Old Testament, decends from Sumerian mythology.

Well, I meant known widely.

But how is it "known"? You're connotating that it's truth. How did it become truth?

I fail to see why people would think that this was "hidden" to prevent feminism. After all, I'd say the Lilith story proves that you need to keep women down, because when you let the be equal all hell breaks loose and they try to rob you, so you have to kill them (but you have to be sure that Death is paying attention, or else they respawn).
Lilith was ommited because when the Christian Bible was being assembled people decided that what her legend wasn't canon. This happened with a large number of stories that were viewed as made up after the fact.
Early story tellers were just as prevalent as modern ones, and they were signifigantly more likely to use religion as their inspiration. I'd be inclined, then, to place the story on the level with The DaVinci Code or the Prophecy movie series.

I'd also like to call whoever thought "Now that we know, what are you going too do" an arrogant twit. I, for one, knew about the story of Lilith since I was in high school, and anyone with even reasonable access to the Intarweb (www.google.com) and some free time to waste could have found out. Further, the belief that finding this story proves something only makes since if you take it literally and are planning to bring Lilith back into our dimension to ravage our souls or something.

But how is it "known"? You're connotating that it's truth. How did it become truth?
Since when is any of that truth? You are aware that all the figures being speculated about are mythical, right?

Yes, this includes Adam and Eve. The snake too while you're at it.

I fail to see why people would think that this was "hidden" to prevent feminism. After all, I'd say the Lilith story proves that you need to keep women down, because when you let the be equal all hell breaks loose and they try to rob you, so you have to kill them (but you have to be sure that Death is paying attention, or else they respawn).
Yes, but when women are inferior, then they fuck things up for generations to come.

Perhaps a female superior version should have been created, then everything would have been spectacular.

Where is everybody reading about this Lilith?

all women today are the offspring of Eve and Lilith.


They's some old reproductive lesbians, then. :p

Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9613523#post9613523) Where is everybody reading about this Lilith?
;)

I'm just going to stay on the sidelines and read what everyone has to say, since I obviously don't have the religious knowledge to effectively argue any point I could make. *sneaks into a corner*

Well, I meant known widely.
The story of Lillith has been widley known. It's becoming more popular here in the US with the rise in Hollywood elite's acceptance of the Jewish mysticism Known as Kabbalah. I heard the story many years ago as it relates to feminism and the comparissons made between Eve's taking of the forbbiden fruit, and Lillith's equality to Adam. The Kaballah story goes further in that Lillith after refusing to take the submissive role to Adam, reads from the "Book of Life" and becomes an equal to God.

Where is everybody reading about this Lilith?
Here's a good primer. (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/)

Yes, but when women are inferior, then they fuck things up for generations to come.
Yes, but Lilith's story shows that you have got to keep women beneath your feet, or problems arise. I'd say that convincing someone that they are naturally evil would work better at keeping them lowly then convincing them that they were made from a peice of some old guy.

Perhaps a female superior version should have been created, then everything would have been spectacular.
I'm just going to assume that this is a joke about how men are stinky and dumb, so I'll pat you on the head and tell you to go back to the sandbox and play with the other nice little children.
Here, you can even have a cupcake (which is like a cookie, but magically better).

Whats the bid deal? The Church "edited" the holy book to stay in control. Thats happened hundruds of times in evey religon.

Whats the bid deal? The Church "edited" the holy book to stay in control. Thats happened hundruds of times in evey religon.
I don't think that they edited it though, I don't think that the story of Lilith was ever canon within the Christian Church. I believe that the People who were assembling the old testament thought that it (the story of Adam's four wives) was "whack" and omitted it, skipping straight to Adam and Eve.

Yes, but Lilith's story shows that you have got to keep women beneath your feet, or problems arise. I'd say that convincing someone that they are naturally evil would work better at keeping them lowly then convincing them that they were made from a peice of some old guy.


I'm just going to assume that this is a joke about how men are stinky and dumb, so I'll pat you on the head and tell you to go back to the sandbox and play with the other nice little children.
Here, you can even have a cupcake (which is like a cookie, but magically better).
Things were worse though, with Eve, the submissive. She's the one who got rid of eternal life on earth and all that? You know, caused death and all that.

I'm saying that the female submissive didn't work, the female equal didn't work, so a female dominant should have been tried as that's the only male/female option left and perhaps would have turned out better. Either that or eliminate men from the equation.

Things were worse though, with Eve, the submissive. She's the one who got rid of eternal life on earth and all that? You know, caused death and all that.
That was just because she listened to snakes. If it hadn't been for the time traveling influences of that damned Dr. Doolittle none of this would have happened.

I'm saying that the female submissive didn't work, the female equal didn't work, so a female dominant should have been tried as that's the only male/female option left and perhaps would have turned out better. Either that or eliminate men from the equation.
Better to eliminate women, life would be so much better off for everyone if we'd just gone with Adam and Steve in the first place.

I don't think that they edited it though, I don't think that the story of Lilith was ever canon within the Christian Church. I believe that the People who were assembling the old testament thought that it (the story of Adam's four wives) was "whack" and omitted it, skipping straight to Adam and Eve.

But I think the problem is that people see that the entire Old Testament is a compilation of old Rabbinical mythology which at some point came from Sumerian mythology. It is to say, what makes it right to omit Lilith from the text if it all came from the same source? Would not Lilith's myth be as true as that of Adam and Eve, or as true as Noah's Ark?

Well, in Ericsson's essay it's regarded as a "rabbinical legend", and that is believable, since most "rabbinical legends", including most out of the Old Testament, decends from Sumerian mythology.

FYI-This idea of Hebrew stealing from Sumerian mythology has been discredited among scholars in the field.

from Christian Answers.net (http://christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-c001.html)
It is not correct to say that "Enuma elish" was adopted and adapted by the Israelites to produce the Genesis stories. As Lambert holds, there is "no evidence of Hebrew borrowing from Babylon" (1965: 296). Sj"berg accepts Lambert's opinion that "there was hardly any influence from that Babylonian text on the Old Testament creation accounts" (1984: 217). Hasel thinks rather that the creation account of Genesis 1 functions as an antimythological polemic in some cases (e.g., with the "sun," the "moon," and tnnm ('sea monsters'?), etc. (1974). One thing is clear with regard to the religious nature of the creation story of Genesis: in Genesis 1 and 2 no female deity exists or is involved in producing the cosmos and humanity. This is unique among ancient creation stories that treat of deities having personality.

and another source (http://www.katapi.org.uk/BAndS/ChII.htm)
Yet the differences between the Biblical and the extant Babylonian legends are sufficiently marked to indicate other influences in the development from the original archetype. It may be that the Hebrew version of the legend is older even than the Sumerian in some of its details, and Yahuda has produced weighty evidence to show a predominant Egyptian colouring of the literary form assumed by these legends in the Pentateuch. In any case, the religious genius of the Hebrews has raised the original stories to a spiritual and moral level as far above the Babylonian versions as Jerusalem is above the muddy lowlands of Chaldaea. 'Archaeology demonstrates that though the religion of Israel was built upon the same material foundation as that of other Semitic peoples, it rose im*measurably above them: it assumed as it developed a unique character, and in the hands of its inspired teachers became the expression of great spiritual realities such as has been without parallel in any other nation of the earth.' [S. R. Driver, Modern Research as illustrating the Bible (Schweich Lecture, 1908).]

Better to eliminate women, life would be so much better off for everyone if we'd just gone with Adam and Steve in the first place.
But Adam was a jerk, he tried to dominate Lillith, who was his equal, if anything, Adam should have been rid of and replaced with a man who is willing to be an equal, whose ego isn't so fragile that he can't conceede a point and work together.

Furthermore, it's obvious that women are better anyways.

My Fave websites about Lilith:
http://vampires.monstrous.com/vampire_origins.htm

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/

http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/modern.html

Hope they work...

FYI-This idea of Hebrew stealing from Sumerian mythology has been discredited among scholars in the field.

from Christian Answers.net (http://christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-c001.html)
It is not correct to say that "Enuma elish" was adopted and adapted by the Israelites to produce the Genesis stories. As Lambert holds, there is "no evidence of Hebrew borrowing from Babylon" (1965: 296). Sj"berg accepts Lambert's opinion that "there was hardly any influence from that Babylonian text on the Old Testament creation accounts" (1984: 217). Hasel thinks rather that the creation account of Genesis 1 functions as an antimythological polemic in some cases (e.g., with the "sun," the "moon," and tnnm ('sea monsters'?), etc. (1974). One thing is clear with regard to the religious nature of the creation story of Genesis: in Genesis 1 and 2 no female deity exists or is involved in producing the cosmos and humanity. This is unique among ancient creation stories that treat of deities having personality.

and another source (http://www.katapi.org.uk/BAndS/ChII.htm)
Yet the differences between the Biblical and the extant Babylonian legends are sufficiently marked to indicate other influences in the development from the original archetype. It may be that the Hebrew version of the legend is older even than the Sumerian in some of its details, and Yahuda has produced weighty evidence to show a predominant Egyptian colouring of the literary form assumed by these legends in the Pentateuch. In any case, the religious genius of the Hebrews has raised the original stories to a spiritual and moral level as far above the Babylonian versions as Jerusalem is above the muddy lowlands of Chaldaea. 'Archaeology demonstrates that though the religion of Israel was built upon the same material foundation as that of other Semitic peoples, it rose im*measurably above them: it assumed as it developed a unique character, and in the hands of its inspired teachers became the expression of great spiritual realities such as has been without parallel in any other nation of the earth.' [S. R. Driver, Modern Research as illustrating the Bible (Schweich Lecture, 1908).]
Could you try some sources with less bias?

Your first site is affiliated with answersingenesis, which is a page that is so full of shit I don't know where to start. I found a flier of theirs that had anti-evolution quotes from "scientists" they didn't say which scientists and I emailed them asking who said these things, the only one they could give an answer for they got wrong. They have people with PhD's in christian studies parading as experts in biology, people with inorganic chemistry PhDs talking about evolution et c. And really lacks credibility.

I think its probably another example of church lies. It wont make much difference. Its kinda depressing that we keep finding these. Makes you wanna question your beliefs.


Wait till you read the dead sea scrolls. Yes, despite church claims they do exist.

But I think the problem is that people see that the entire Old Testament is a compilation of old Rabbinical mythology which at some point came from Sumerian mythology. It is to say, what makes it right to omit Lilith from the text if it all came from the same source? Would not Lilith's myth be as true as that of Adam and Eve, or as true as Noah's Ark?
You're assuming that the people who were writing the Bible were writing it as a compilation of short fiction, they weren't. They weren't writing anything that had to do with Sumerian texts at all, but were taking select writings on the life of Jesus, and then select writings on the times pre-Jesus and composing them as a history of their Religion. As a result, they took certain things, such as Lilith, and determined that they weren't canon, but were probably just added on later by story tellers who needed something to keep people interested. Lilith is no more religious canon then my short story about the time I ate a jelly bean and "grew up big, with horns" and then proceeded to "start knocking over hoses[sic]" from when I was five is part of the history of the 20th Century.
(And, yes, I do have a copy of a stupid ass story I wrote when I was five, I keep it as a sort of reminder that whenever I write something now and don't think it is good enough, I have, in fact, written worse.)

One thing is clear with regard to the religious nature of the creation story of Genesis: in Genesis 1 and 2 no female deity exists or is involved in producing the cosmos and humanity.


And is this not exactly what we're arguing in this thread? The fact that Jewish mythology has outright omitted women as equals of men?

You're assuming that the people who were writing the Bible were writing it as a compilation of short fiction, they weren't. They weren't writing anything that had to do with Sumerian texts at all, but were taking select writings on the life of Jesus, and then select writings on the times pre-Jesus and composing them as a history of their Religion. As a result, they took certain things, such as Lilith, and determined that they weren't canon, but were probably just added on later by story tellers who needed something to keep people interested. Lilith is no more religious canon then my short story about the time I ate a jelly bean and "grew up big, with horns" and then proceeded to "start knocking over hoses[sic]" from when I was five is part of the history of the 20th Century.
(And, yes, I do have a copy of a stupid ass story I wrote when I was five, I keep it as a sort of reminder that whenever I write something now and don't think it is good enough, I have, in fact, written worse.)


Well, specifically, we're talking about the Old Testament, so Jesus doesn't have really anything to do with it. Furthermore, those who gathered at the Council of Milan already had an Old Testament in hand, of which they didn't compile, but instead omitted more, because it didn't agree with political ideologies of the time.

The difference between the story you wrote when you were five and Lilith, is that your story doesn't have the same importance to women throughout the world. It is to say, because of the omission of Lilith from the Old Testamen it is easy to say that woman have been forced by the ecclesiastical group to believe that they have always been inferior to their male counterparts.

You're assuming that the Old Testament was written from completely unfounded ideas, based on the word of God, or the word of whatever was holy. Unfortunately, I believe that the Old Testament was written by a group of old guys who had nothing better to do but create a religion that would basically allow them to forge a nation that would be bounded together by a 'higher authority', which I believe doesn't exist.

Regardless of whatever that other NS member said, most of the stories from the Old Testament do resemble a lot of Sumerian legends, with themselves come from areas like Catal Huyuk and Jericho, which the Jewish religion does not surpass in amount of time existing. So, as with most secular historians, I believe the Old Testament was a compilation of Sumerian legend, forged for the welfare of men, and spefically, men who held power.

Adam got ALL the groovy chicks! :mad:

But Adam was a jerk, he tried to dominate Lillith, who was his equal, if anything, Adam should have been rid of and replaced with a man who is willing to be an equal, whose ego isn't so fragile that he can't conceede a point and work together.
No, Lilith was a bitch who tried to do everything her way, there is a difference between dominating and desiring cooperation.

Furthermore, it's obvious that women are better anyways.
Really? How many times have women invented the microwave? Never! How many times have women broken microwaves? Many!
How many women were involved in Operation Sunset Clown (middle school thing, we stole all the desks from one wing of the school and put them in the other wing)? None! How many women tattled on us and got us in deep, deep shit? One!
How many women were H.P. Lovecraft? None! How many women don't understand my frequent references to his work? Many!
How many women could invent these bizarre and totally nonsensical questions? Not so many. How many women would believe that these proofs aren't 5000000% accurate? Most.
Now, with all that evidence before you, can you deny that Adam and Steve, wouldn't have created a better world?

Now, with all that evidence before you, can you deny that Adam and Steve, wouldn't have created a better world?

Because a world without boobies is a world I don't want to live in.

Yea, but Adam and Steve wouldn't have been able to make babies, but they would have probably made an awsome rock band. Which is why God should have created a bunch of woman that were whores by birth, allowing Adam and Steve to knock them up, thus creating the human race.

There's a difference between Myth and laughable B.S., and most of this stuff reeks of the latter catagory.

Yea, but Adam and Steve wouldn't have been able to make babies, but they would have probably made an awsome rock band. Which is why God should have created a bunch of woman that were whores by birth, allowing Adam and Steve to knock them up, thus creating the human race.

So on the seventh day, God created groupies? Okay.

There's a difference between Myth and laughable B.S., and most of this stuff reeks of the latter catagory.

I bet you are responding to the thread topic. Lilith preceeded Adam. Texts show this is clear. Maybe you could read the rest of it to.

Well, specifically, we're talking about the Old Testament, so Jesus doesn't have really anything to do with it. Furthermore, those who gathered at the Council of Milan already had an Old Testament in hand, of which they didn't compile, but instead omitted more, because it didn't agree with political ideologies of the time.
They cut out what they thought didn't fit. They viewed it as lies and pared it out.
The difference between the story you wrote when you were five and Lilith, is that your story doesn't have the same importance to women throughout the world. It is to say, because of the omission of Lilith from the Old Testamen it is easy to say that woman have been forced by the ecclesiastical group to believe that they have always been inferior to their male counterparts.
So then, by your logic, had I written a story about a women that suddenly was really great and OMGWTF had Jesus Magic, like a girl Jesus, and had done great stuff and said "Yeah, women are equal" I would be obligated to include this story in any compilation of 20th century history I should make?
You're assuming that the Old Testament was written from completely unfounded ideas, based on the word of God, or the word of whatever was holy.
No, I am assuming that the people who were assembling the Bible assumed that they were assembling the word of God. Me, I'm an agnostic. You, (I assume) are an atheist. However, just because we aren't Christians doesn't mean that the assemblers of the old Testament didn't believe.
Unfortunately, I believe that the Old Testament was written by a group of old guys who had nothing better to do but create a religion that would basically allow them to forge a nation that would be bounded together by a 'higher authority', which I believe doesn't exist.
No, the people who wrote were people who believed that they had a direct line to God, and that this line allowed them to sort the truth from the lies. Once again, you exemplify the common fallacy of atheist, assuming that all other people were (and are) atheists themselves.
Regardless of whatever that other NS member said, most of the stories from the Old Testament do resemble a lot of Sumerian legends, with themselves come from areas like Catal Huyuk and Jericho, which the Jewish religion does not surpass in amount of time existing. So, as with most secular historians, I believe the Old Testament was a compilation of Sumerian legend, forged for the welfare of men, and spefically, men who held power.
So? Look, when you assembled yoour political philosophy did you pick one political party and automatically follow everything they said? The people who gathered together Christianity picked what Jewish legends they thought were true, and stiched them up. Those legends that they believed to be later additions or overly embelished weere edited down or cast aside.

NOTE: If my response seems repetitive and unwieldy, it is because the other guy is being overly redundant. Thats right, I blame you, Other Guy!

[quote]They cut out what they thought didn't fit. They viewed it as lies and pared it out.q

Or more likely, they cut out what they felt didn't support their mysoginist ideologies.

So then, by your logic, had I written a story about a women that suddenly was really great and OMGWTF had Jesus Magic, like a girl Jesus, and had done great stuff and said "Yeah, women are equal" I would be obligated to include this story in any compilation of 20th century history I should make?

No, because your story wasn't accepted Sumerian mythology that had been the norm for thousands of years prior to the rise of Judaism.

No, I am assuming that the people who were assembling the Bible assumed that they were assembling the word of God. Me, I'm an agnostic. You, (I assume) are an atheist. However, just because we aren't Christians doesn't mean that the assemblers of the old Testament didn't believe.

I'm agnostic as well, not athiest. Regardless, when the Old Testament was assembled there was no single God. For the past thousands of years there had been multiple gods, in which there were various dieties. Now, have you ever talked to God, or known someone to talk to God? No. Was it that God only talked to people five thousand years ago, because it was cooler? I don't think that's very believable. Logically, these "believers" only believed in themselves, because neither did they have the foundation for a single God, nor the power to talk to this 'god'.

No, the people who wrote were people who believed that they had a direct line to God, and that this line allowed them to sort the truth from the lies. Once again, you exemplify the common fallacy of atheist, assuming that all other people were (and are) atheists themselves.

Fallacy of athiesm? Where in this topic has anybody ever claimed to express athiest philosophies? The Old Testament was compiled over thousands of years, most likely, picking old myths that best fitted the political ideologies of the time, such as Adam's superiority over Eve, and thus, man's political superiority over woman's political superiority.

Your fallacy is that you assume all talked to God, which I think is unbelievably nieve.

So? Look, when you assembled yoour political philosophy did you pick one political party and automatically follow everything they said? The people who gathered together Christianity picked what Jewish legends they thought were true, and stiched them up. Those legends that they believed to be later additions or overly embelished weere edited down or cast aside.

The problem is that both Christian and Jewish religion chose to omit the myths of Lilith, and there was never a recorded revision of this omission. Thus, the only thing one can deduct was that the omission was done with a purpose from the very beginning.

Macabees, this will be my final post, as we're merely wasting time and repeating ourselves.
You assume that these men, instead of doing a detailed study based on their personal faiths, simply had a grudge against women.
I am assuming that they chose what writings they thought were true and used those. Writings that they determined to be false were discarded.
Further, you assume that because Sumerians believed something, that Christians must also accept it as canon.
I am assuming that someone creating a new religion might introduce some sort of variation to its core beliefs and stories.
Finally, you are assuming that no one ever had a fever dream, a case of schizophrenia, or maybe had an inventive view of the Universe.
I believe that, yes, a number of people do think that they've talked to God. I guarantee you that at least one of the men choosing works for the old testament thought that he could talk to God.
You assume that the presence of one legend, in which a woman goes insane and turns into a demon, in the Bible would have (somehow) changed the face of the world.
I put forth that, no, Lilith's legend means nothing in the long run.

And now, I bid you all adieu. This arguing about Lilith is rather silly, and it appears that Lilith will just have to join Saint Sebastian as one of those figures hijacked by modern movements with which they had no connection.

The story of Lilith is important and it is important that her story has been so accepted by feminist movements in the modern age. She refused to hold a spot lower than Adam and when God threatened her, she turned against him. For doing so, she was cursed. There are many ways of viewing this story and many morals can be gained by it. Dignity even in the face of Divine Intervention? To say that the story has no meaning and is not important is to shove aside an important myth that as far as I know, is already fragmented. All ancient myth is of importance. Even more so to those who don't look at such quite so literally.

Since when is any of that truth? You are aware that all the figures being speculated about are mythical, right?

Yes, this includes Adam and Eve. The snake too while you're at it.

That's all fine and dandy, but The Macabees was writing as if it were true. So I was wondering where that came from.

So there are two truths here:

* You don't believe the Bible is correct but you believe that the Bible was edited and it originally had something about Lilith.

* You do believe the Bible is correct, Adam and Eve existed, so did the serpent in Genesis, and you believe that the Bible was edited and it originally had something about Lilith.

The Macabees falls into one of those categories. Either way, I am still wondering just because someone writes that such and such is true, why does he believe it? And still, what is this notion that it's widely known?

As for myself, I fall into this category:

* I don't believe the Bible is correct, and I don't believe there was a Lilith story in it at any time.

The story of Lilith is important and it is important that her story has been so accepted by feminist movements in the modern age. She refused to hold a spot lower than Adam and when God threatened her, she turned against him. For doing so, she was cursed. There are many ways of viewing this story and many morals can be gained by it. Dignity even in the face of Divine Intervention? To say that the story has no meaning and is not important is to shove aside an important myth that as far as I know, is already fragmented. All ancient myth is of importance. Even more so to those who don't look at such quite so literally.

Good point. Though I doubt it was not kept in its perfect and true form either. Otherwise the devil would be a woman then.

The whole Lillith and Adam is kind of backwards. :confused:

Take naming things and then not whom not sharing the words is associated with and take who 'sharing words' is attributed to as one example. So far as I know, females utter words more than males do. If you consider societies where one or the other gender is usually more responsible for early socialisation (including teaching speech), it is more often females who associated with teaching human young to communicate. In our stereotypes it isnt men who are infamous for being chatter-boxes.

The traits attributed to Adam are far more readily associated with tasks more often the responsibility of females (in societies where there is a gendered division of labour). At the same time the traits attributed to Lillith are far more readily associated with tasks and roles that are more usually considered masculine by most known human societies.

It's a Jewish Legend. It's odd though, that so many Christians are skeptical of her.
Drinking the blood of Christ? Perfectly normal.
Couple of Resurecctions? I'm with you.
Bodily ascension into heaven? Check.
World created in seven days? Yupper.
Adam's first wife bitched him out? NOW hold on there...
Hide that kitten, bucko .... ;)

That was just because she listened to snakes. If it hadn't been for the time traveling influences of that damned Dr. Doolittle none of this would have happened.


Better to eliminate women, life would be so much better off for everyone if we'd just gone with Adam and Steve in the first place.
This is EXCELLENT threadjack fodder. *nudge*
Keep up the good work!!!!!
;)

Yea, but Adam and Steve wouldn't have been able to make babies, but they would have probably made an awsome rock band. Which is why God should have created a bunch of woman that were whores by birth, allowing Adam and Steve to knock them up, thus creating the human race.
Cool. Maybe i should adjust my attitude on above post - not a jack when there's cooperation!!!!!

Hide that kitten, bucko .... ;)
I want to make jokes about pussy cats now...

In the ancient world, Lilith was a demon who killed male children. Basically a boogeyman. The stuff about her being Adam's first wife are from Jewish folklore of the middle ages.

In the ancient world, Lilith was a demon who killed male children. Basically a boogeyman. The stuff about her being Adam's first wife are from Jewish folklore of the middle ages.
It is much older than just the middle ages and it is not only male children.

"`How can I return to Adam and live like an honest housewife, after my stay beside the Red Sea?? 'It will be death to refuse!' they answered. `How can I die,' Lilith asked again, `when God has ordered me to take charge of all newborn children: boys up to the eighth day of life, that of circumcision; girls up to the twentieth day. None the less, if ever I see your three names or likenesses displayed in an amulet above a newborn child, I promise to spare it.' To this they agreed; but God punished Lilith by making one hundred of her demon children perish daily; 5 and if she could not destroy a human infant, because of the angelic amulet, she would spitefully turn against her own. 6"
http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html

For ancient images: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/

I want to make jokes about pussy cats now...
Maybe that cat factors into the end of the world and needs to be worshipped!
(not too much astray from the thread nature here)

Maybe that cat factors into the end of the world and needs to be worshipped!
(not too much astray from the thread nature here)
OH I worship the p... no, mustn't say it...

[QUOTE=The Macabees]I wasn't aware of this myself until a few weeks ago when I read a piece by Stephanie Ericsson called The Ways We Lie, but it seems as if the Jewish 'founding fathers', as well as those religious leaders who met in the Council of Milan, decided to omit what I guess can be considered a vital part of the Old Testament.

Apparently, Adam was not always married with Eve, and beforehand was married with Lilith, who is now known as a Sumerian goddess cast away as a spirit of evil. As most of you know, Eve was crafted from one of Adam's ribs, but unlike Eve, Lilith was from the same 'mud' as Adam, so it would imply that both Adamn and Lilith were equals. Unfortunately for Lilith, she was erased forever from the Old Testament (spefically, Genesis), as I've said before, forever changing feminist history in the Judeo-Catholic world.

Quoted from Ericsson:



What I'm interested in is how has the Church, including Catholic and all Protestant subdivisions, has reacted to the fact that it's known now that Adam was not always been married to Eve? Furthermore, how do you think this would redefine marriage, divorce, and women in the church, should this issue become more and more important within Christian politics?

-Jon[/QUOTE

Might I say, you are very well read.
*claps*

OH I worship the p... no, mustn't say it...
It's okay!!! (Relative) freedom of speech!!
*woof woof* (shakes fist in the air)
er, i mean,
*meow meow* (waves hand in a light breezing motion)

;)

It's okay!!! (Relative) freedom of speech!!
*woof woof* (shakes fist in the air)
er, i mean,
*meow meow* (waves hand in a light breezing motion)

;)
Wouldn't it be a great religion? I'm sure we'd meet more than once a week.

Eden. Eden.
(but you have to be sure that Death is paying attention, or else they respawn).

So.. the Garden of Eden was a bit like a level from Doom 3, but with more plants?

Okay, Unreal Tournament?


Adam opens a can of whupass on Eve.
Eve fell a long way.
Adam eats Lillith's pineapple.
The serpent was fragged by Eve.
GOD respawns.
Adam was destroyed by GOD's almighty wrath.
Eve was destroyed by GOD's almighty wrath.
Lillith was destroyed by GOD's almighty wrath.
The serpent was destroyed by GOD's almighty wrath.
Eve: woah
Adam: ..tf? HAX0R!

I think Moonshine's explaination is as close to the truth as anyone can get...
=)

I've only ever heard one thing about Lillith, and this is it.

I'm being 100% serious here.

Okay, ready?

I heard that she was Adam's first wife and that she was sexually assertive, and that she enjoyed being on top during sex.

At some point she was kicked out of the Garden, but I can't remember why.

She's quite a popular figure in some circles I gather.

On the other hand, Kain slew Abel and got heartily banished for it. Kain went off to Nod where he, apparently, 'found his wife'. Which is a bit strange, since there wasn't really supposed to be anyone else, was there? So, you know, maybe he hooked up with Lilith.

And since Abel was dead and everything, maybe all women today are the offspring of Eve and Lilith.

Which explains... absolutely nothing, really.


Erm... Cain married one of his sisters... and yes... it does say that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters... it just doesn't give their names...

I think Moonshine's explaination is as close to the truth as anyone can get...
=)

It gets worse.


The Serpent: You know, I know how He does that. You just type in IDDQD.
The Serpent was destroyed by Eve's almighty wrath!
Adam was destroyed by Eve's almighty wrath!
Lillith was destroyed by Eve's almighty wrath!
GOD was destroyed by Eve's almighty wrath!
The Serpent: ow.
GOD: OMFG, GET OUT NOW!!
Adam was kicked by GOD.
Eve was kicked by GOD.
Lillith was kicked by GOD.
The Serpent was kicked by GOD.
The Serpent has joined the game.
The Serpent: oh come on, it was only a joke..
The Serpent was kicked by GOD (NOW, bitch!)
GOD sets mode +b *mortal*.*

What about the Nephillim and the Separham? No mention of that either.
The Nephillim I believe were a race of Giants or something like that, Separham I just heard mentioned in a fiction book being related to Nephillem
(Read 'Many Waters', by the same person who Wrote 'A Wrinkle in time')

That sounds familiar,I heard somewhere that Adam had a wife before Eve.I have the strangest feeling it may have been in The Lion,The witch and The Wardrobe.
Yeah in the book the Witch was said to be half of the Race that Adam and Lilith made, It also said something about Lilith either being or with Adam being the father creating the race of Jinn(Genies).
(Perhaps the Koran has something on this?)

Where is everybody reading about this Lilith?
You can find her in this (http://www.clanbob.net/lifeofriley.php?view=2001-02-07) webcomic but she doesn't step in till later on. I recommend reading Life of Riley anyway, simply because it's good.