NationStates Jolt Archive

got this from a buddie here at work... he got it from newsmax.com. This should clarify the blaming game quite a bit... start pointing your fingers for Katrina's disastrous aftermath at New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin:

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Ray Nagin: School Buses Not Good Enough

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin garnered a ton of publicity with a profanity-laced interview he gave to WWL radio last Thursday, where he blasted President Bush and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco for not coming to rescue his city in time.

However, Nagin's most newsworthy comments - where he explained why he didn't use hundreds of city school buses to evacuate his city's flood victims - went almost unnoticed.

Turns out, Nagin turned his nose up at the yellow buses, demanding more comfortable Greyhound coaches instead.

"I need 500 buses, man," he told WWL. "One of the briefings we had they were talking about getting, you know, public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out of here."

Nagin described his response:

"I'm like - you've got to be kidding me. This is a natural disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

While Nagin was waiting for his Greyhound fleet, Katrina's floodwaters swamped his school buses, rendering them unusable.

CNN's full script (if you doubt the credibility of newsmax.com):

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/

So he can be blamed for the lack of buses, he is just the mayor of a dirt poor (largely dirt poor) city.. so I'll give you that, he's to blame for the buses. I think the larger picture will come forth and rest this on FEMA and DHS and rightfully so.

key part:

NAGIN: I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here.

I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

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I am CERTAIN that the city of New Orleans has well in excess of 500 yellow school buses. For some reason, Nagin thumbed his nose at the resources at hand. A Chevy wasn't good enough... he HAD TO HAVE a Porsche!

Oh I don't disagree, I just think there is plenty of blame to go around and a disaster on this scale will not be dumped soley on some poor black mayor, nor should it be.

Oh I don't disagree, I just think there is plenty of blame to go around and a disaster on this scale will not be dumped soley on some poor black mayor, nor should it be.

what does his race have to do with anything?

Certainly I don't think anyone knew just how bad things would be... you can look at models all you want to, but you can't know the scope of destruction until it happens. In that respect, the mayor, governor and feds are absolved (to me, at least).

His race has nothing to do with it, he just happens to be black. There was no point being made there. Although, the state did follow all proper procedure and there is proof of that, so you can't blame all this on the mayor..

Press Release - Date: 8/27/2005 (http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976)

Please DO note the dates.

So basically as of Aug. 27/05 this became a federal issue. FEMA, which is under the tent of DHS.

absolved from the irrational responsibility of knowing everything/foretelling the future, that is.

This Nagin fellow he strikes me like the sort of administrator who literally says "do whatever you want", then goes to play golf and take the credit or lay the blame.

This Nagin fellow he strikes me like the sort of administrator who literally says "do whatever you want", then goes to play golf and take the credit or lay the blame.

Yet when Bush does the same thing basically, he gets praised for "inspiring leadership." I think this thread was started as a Bushevik attempt to absolve him of all blame for the Katrina disaster, despite cutting the levee repair funds and appointing an incompetent horse breeder as head of a neutered FEMA.

absolved from the irrational responsibility of knowing everything/foretelling the future, that is.

Well, I don't know about that. Every single person who's ever researched what would happen to New Orleans if a Cat 4 or 5 storm hit have all come to the same conclusion, it would be a disaster of proportions that had never been seen before in America. And that's exactly what happened. What seems to have been the clear problem was the lack of leadership from FEMA, no control and command center and lack of any structure for communications. All of these things that failed at every level under DHS 501 fall under federal jurisdiction once the governor had asked, which she did days before the storm even hit. So you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who dropped the ball. It was FEMA and DHS. At least that is my opinion based on every bit of information I've been able to find.

I think it's obvious that there were serious mistakes made at all levels - local, state, and federal. As people have pointed out, there's plenty of blame to spread around, and it seems ridiculous to claim that Nagin is primarily to blame because of one particular mistake with the busses.

I agree that Nagin was an idiot - of course he needed federal help, but you have to do everything you can with what you have available in an emergency and he chose to sit by hoping someone else would solve the problem for him.

But to my mind, the bulk of the blame lies with the group with the most power to do good, and in this situation, the group with the farthest reaching capacity to coordinate disaster infrastructure is FEMA. Ultimately I think the head of FEMA probably deserves the most blame and I sincerely hope that he has the decency to resign. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Bush administration pressures him to resign to take the fall for what's happened.

I don't think Bush is directly responsible for anything to do with Katrina - his incompetence shields him from high expectations, and he's certainly no expert in disaster response. That said, I think it is deplorable that Bush appointed someone with absolutely no relevant experience as head of FEMA, and I'm sure that lives could have been saved if someone competent had been in charge.

I know that if I were Bush I wouldn't be able to sleep well at night knowing that.

Oh my God, NewsmaX!!!

Credibility...Rightwing...


ARRRGGHHHH!!!!!!!
[/sarcasm]

Oh my God, NewsmaX!!!

Credibility...Rightwing...


ARRRGGHHHH!!!!!!!
[/sarcasm]
To be fair, all he took from Newsmax was a direct quote, and he provided a link from CNN for those of us with a left wing bias :D

So who - I ask out of honest curiosity, as an outsider - did Kerry have lined up to head FEMA if he'd won the election? Somebody with a proven track record in such matters, or just one of his (instead of one of GWB's) friends?

Yet when Bush does the same thing basically, he gets praised for "inspiring leadership." I think this thread was started as a Bushevik attempt to absolve him of all blame for the Katrina disaster, despite cutting the levee repair funds and appointing an incompetent horse breeder as head of a neutered FEMA.
Well, the thing is that Bush has the act down pat. Nagin is like a little kid trying to play in the big leagues.

I think the problems were systemic, more than a single individual or group of individuals (although they're not absolved from the handling of the mess afterwards).

Bush's error has been, and still is, in the whole PR mismanagement of the situation. People just didn't see him involved or concerned enough. And, of course, his appointees to some posts.

True. But don't forget that the guy in charge of FEMA has just been fired by Bush.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/

True. But don't forget that the guy in charge of FEMA has just been fired by Bush.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/

Did you even read the article closely? He's not being fired from his post at FEMA. He's just being taken off the Katrina relief efforts. We still have an incompetent horse breeder in charge of a neutered FEMA waiting to fuck up another disaster relief effort.

This thread needs a Public Poll.

It really amazes me that by Saturday the White House Spinmasters had every talk radio show blaming the city and the state. By Saturday night, every supporter had it memorized. They can do this, but it takes 3 days for a hospital ship to leave Norfolk Va, almost a week before a helicopter carrier shows up. I guess they have their priorities in order. Ok, the city and state could have done better. But---I work with my county emergency management through ARES/RACES (ham radio emergency communications). At every monthly training meeting we are told that we only need to hold out for a MAXIMUM of THREE DAYS. That is the Federal standard. We are told to have a 72 hour kit with everything we might need to survive and do our job for 3 DAYS (I'm now going to expand mine to 7 days). Many companies even sell 72 hour kits (google that) because that is the federal standard. Before that time the Feds are to show up, evaluate, and take over. That means they are there the first day, evaluating and organizing the second day and taking over on or before the third day. How much looting and deaths took place the first three days? How much looting and deaths and unrest happened after three days? The city and state can take blame for 3 days but after that all of the blame goes to the Feds. Remember--The FEDS made the rules and standards. NOT the city and state.

So who - I ask out of honest curiosity, as an outsider - did Kerry have lined up to head FEMA if he'd won the election? Somebody with a proven track record in such matters, or just one of his (instead of one of GWB's) friends?

I can not stress just how irrelevant this question is. :rolleyes:

Did you even read the article closely? He's not being fired from his post at FEMA. He's just being taken off the Katrina relief efforts. We still have an incompetent horse breeder in charge of a neutered FEMA waiting to fuck up another disaster relief effort.
Even Mr. Brown, the person fired from the Katrina duties for lying on his resume, did not do as bad as Mr. Nagin did. Don't blame FEMA. They had the shit there right outside the superdome ready to go. But Nagin refused to allow them to distribute the shit.
So don't blame FEMA for Nagin's corruption and incompetence.

Even Mr. Brown, the person fired from the Katrina duties for lying on his resume, did not do as bad as Mr. Nagin did. Don't blame FEMA. They had the shit there right outside the superdome ready to go. But Nagin refused to allow them to distribute the shit.
So don't blame FEMA for Nagin's corruption and incompetence.

Don't blame FEMA? What kind of reality are you living in? FEMA's response was completely abysmal compared to how it handled Florida. And back then it was a high-level agency with terrific funding and staffed by people with actual disaster relief experience.

So who - I ask out of honest curiosity, as an outsider - did Kerry have lined up to head FEMA if he'd won the election? Somebody with a proven track record in such matters, or just one of his (instead of one of GWB's) friends?
I don't know who Kerry would have apointed but I tend to believe he would have chosen someone better qualified. Before you acuse me of mindless partisanship let me explain. ;)

We know why Bush appointed someone unqualified to the post - he, like many republicans, believes that the federal government should stay out of people's lives in matters like this. What does it matter then if the the federal level isn't that competent? Bush and his suporters think situations like Katarina should dealt with by local authorities, so why waste someone competent on a federal organization like FEMA, if you don't think they should be doing much?

I think that Kerry, and many democrats, feel that the federal government has a stronger guiding role to play in situations like these, so I believe that Kerry would have appointed someone competent to the post.

Really, this is at the core of the whole blame argument. The reuplicans blame the local government because they expect nothing from the federal level, and for the democrats it's the other way around.

Personally, I think that disasters of the magnitude of Katrina need to be answered with resources and organization greater than that available locally, and if that's the case, the responsibility falls on FEMA.

Frankly, I'm not sure why FEMA exists if it isn't supposed to take responsibility for response to disasters like Katrina.