NationStates Jolt Archive

This is based on pure observation. The Catholics I know, tend to be more left of centre then any of the protestants I know. I wanted to know what you guys thought. Think about all the Catholics you know (exclude people's grandparents because old people are normally very much right of centre) and compare them to the Protestants you know (same go with old people), do a little mental maths.

Ahahahahaha!

Ummmm.... that's probably an American thing.

Well, if most the Protestants you know are Baptists, then yes, that makes sense. Otherwise, Catholics are usually more conservative.

Well, if most the Protestants you know are Baptists, then yes, that makes sense. Otherwise, Catholics are usually more conservative.
For the record I am refering to Catholic individuals YOU KNOW. Not Teh Catholic Church as an institution.

On social issues practicing Catholics are typically conservative. On economic issues, they subscribe to the belief that "money is the root of all evil".

Protestants...depends on the sect. Generally, they don't view wealth as a bad thing, though.

Protestants...depends on the sect. Generally, they don't view wealth as a bad thing, though.
Especially the Protestants in America, who descend from Quakers.

Openly Gay Catholics: 45 Million.... Openly Gya Protestants...8?

Yeah I made the stats up, but we are as a a religion pretty gay! I mean what the hell? Anyway, keep voting people. Only you can make a difference...

Openly Gay Catholics: 45 Million.... Openly Gya Protestants...8?

Yeah I made the stats up, but we are as a a religion pretty gay! I mean what the hell? Anyway, keep voting people. Only you can make a difference...
Yeah, great stat. What about Non-denominational Christians? Would not the largest population of homosexual people be in that group?

On social issues practicing Catholics are typically conservative. On economic issues, they subscribe to the belief that "money is the root of all evil".

Yes, that's exactly my impression, too. Perhaps someone remembers the Cardinals from Latin America who were supposed to be the next pope after the death of John Paul II.? Most were described as socially conservative, economically critically at capitalism and globalization.

Well, here in Germany - I'm member of the Lutheran church - the big protestant churches tend to be very leftwing-liberal (esp. in bigger cities) with only small conservative circles.

Mainstream protestants, i.e. Lutherans belonging to the Church of Sweden (not a state church, just called that way) and not these pentecostal and baptist-like sects and cults, tend to be the most liberal here. We don't have many Catholics, but they tend to be conservative like their church.

Yeah, great stat. What about Non-denominational Christians? Would not the largest population of homosexual people be in that group?
Given I pulled the statistic out of my arse, you're lucky it included any Protestants at all...

Yes, that's exactly my impression, too. Perhaps someone remembers the Cardinals from Latin America who were supposed to be the next pope after the death of John Paul II.? Most were described as socially conservative, economically critically at capitalism and globalization.

Well, here in Germany - I'm member of the Lutheran church - the big protestant churches tend to be very leftwing-liberal (esp. in bigger cities) with only small conservative circles.
Booooooo! Get a Pope! Boooooooooooooo!

Nah, just kidding. You know ich liebe dich!

This is based on pure observation. The Catholics I know, tend to be more left of centre then any of the protestants I know. I wanted to know what you guys thought. Think about all the Catholics you know (exclude people's grandparents because old people are normally very much right of centre) and compare them to the Protestants you know (same go with old people), do a little mental maths.

They did a survery and found that Catholics were more accepting of homosexuality - 65% found that homosexuality was acceptable.

Baptists and evangelicals were the ones least likely to accept homosexuality.

I think that if there was ever a benchmark for acceptance and tolerance, its the homosexuality question that should be used as a benchmark.

They did a survery and found that Catholics were more accepting of homosexuality - 65% found that homosexuality was acceptable.

Baptists and evangelicals were the ones least likely to accept homosexuality.

I think that if there was ever a benchmark for acceptance and tolerance, its the homosexuality question that should be used as a benchmark.
Because we all know that homosexuality is the only issue seperating liberals and conservatives.

Actually i dont know if one can consider catholics as a rule more liberal than protestants...
in the last two presidential elections in the US, citizens who had a higher church-attendance rate (catholics, protestants, jews, eic) voted overwhelmingly for the Republicans...
A couple of years ago, Democrats did have a virtual monopoly on the Catholic vote, but things have clearly changed...
still, speaking broadly, one would have to admit that catholic faith as a whole is more tolerant towards the faithfull that engage in sinful behaviour...they simply have to confess their sins, repent and promise not to commit such sins again...till the next time. ;)

Well, I know alot of liberal catholics, a lot of conservative catholics, a lot of liberal protestants, and a lot of conservative protestants. I think it really depends on the way you interpret your religion and which points you believe in most strongly.

In the U.S., Catholics are usually left of center on social issues... Except ones from the Deep South.

Well, In the US, we call it the religious right.

And most agnostic/atheists are liberal.

I know not all religious people are conservative, but the majority are.

Don't you remember Bush saying he "talked to god" before invading Iraq? :rolleyes:

nah.. the Church of England is at the forefront of organised evil. Cull them!

It depends on the individual. Some Catholics are liberal. My father was Catholic, but a member of People for the American Way and a member of the Democrat party since his arrival in the US. Some Catholics are very conservative, like Pat Buchanan.

That seems to be an American thing, I guess.

Here, Catholics tend to be more conservative in realtion to general society, regarding things like abortion and contraception, sexual moral, gender equality and "family values". On the other hand, the Catholic church accepts the evolution theory, and science on the whole.

In America, there are protestant denomination who are far more conservative than the Catholic church, and society on the whole seems to be more conservative than European society. As a result, the Catholics may seem more liberal in the States than they do here...

Ahahahahaha!

Ummmm.... that's probably an American thing.

I think so too.

Of course they're both regressive. Note : I'm not saying conservative, but regressive.
It means extremely right wing.
The debate about homosexuality is only an issue in religious circles who consider sexuality as a spiritual thing. That there are more homosexuals in this or that group is not an issue at all. The issue is if they are homosexual because they like it or because it makes them part of a pseudo-social group looking like progressive. They're not. Homosexuals are not left wing for being homosexual. The religious homosexuals want marriage. Marriage is conservative.

I dont know any protestants so I can't comment,there aren't that many in the republic,its mostly catholic.well i do have a teacher from Northen Ireland,but i have no idea about his religion.

In the U.S., Catholics are usually left of center on social issues... Except ones from the Deep South.
No offense, but exactly what "Deep South" do you go to that likes Catholics? Down in Arkansas where we have our vacation/retirement home, I'm not even allowed to TELL those folks I'm Catholic. They simply won't stand for it. I understand there are probably a bunch of Catholics in the more developed, diverse areas, but by and large the South is pretty anti-Catholic, from what I've seen my entire life.

Overall, I'd say the Catholics I know (myself included) are pretty friggin liberal. Actually, and I've said this before, my church gets flak because we probably push it just a wee bit further than the other area congregations are quite prepared to accept, but most Catholic teachings anymore are more along the lines that we're free to make our own political and economic decisions and we shouldn't have a bias towards religion in politics. So yes, for the people that manage to step outside of their little religion boxes, I'd say Catholics are more liberal. I myself am pretty far left (for America, at least.....I'm not going to even try to claim I'm an extreme liberal on a world scale), even when I do take religious views into consideration.

And Rotovia, why is it that I only ever notice AFTER THE FACT that your threads make up a vast majority of the threads I feel obliged to reply to? Mind control. It's gotta be intercontinental mind control.

I generally find that there is a "generation gap" with Catholics and politics. The vast majority of the older Catholics are in favor of more conservative, moderately capitalistic policies, whereas the majority (not necessarily an overwhelming majority) of younger Catholics tend to be more liberal on social issues and slightly farther left on economic issues.

Depends on where you go, where I am, in general, the Catholics (as opposed to the church) are more liberal than most of the non-Catholic Christians, but some of the non-Catholic Christian groups are more liberal than the Catholics. I've met more than a few Marxist Catholics but can only recall having met one Marxist who was any religion besides Catholic (a Quaker).

It seems that the conservative Catholics and liberal Catholics tend to keep to themselves. I, for instance, can go the St. John Neumann (the parish I live in) to a pretty liberal congregation or save a few minutes and go to St. Anthony (not my parish, but faster to get to) to experience a pretty conservative congregation.

Catholics are more libertarian! :D :D :D :D
Actually it seems 49.5% conservative / 49.5% liberal / 1% other (libertarian, statist, etc)

Simonist']-snip-

Whoa. I guess I should've been more specific!

Texas. Texas catholics aren't even real catholics. They're shitheads.

I generally find that there is a "generation gap" with Catholics and politics. The vast majority of the older Catholics are in favor of more conservative, moderately capitalistic policies, whereas the majority (not necessarily an overwhelming majority) of younger Catholics tend to be more liberal on social issues and slightly farther left on economic issues.

Yeah, it would be nice to see to see people with religious beliefs stick to their doctrine. I find it really annoying to find Catholics support abortion and gay rights. Whether you agree with these issues or not doesn't matter but supposively the Church is against them. So if people are pushing to change this, then what is the point of having religious doctrine? Changing everytime something isn't PC isn't a religion it is just a fad.

Whoa. I guess I should've been more specific!

Texas. Texas catholics aren't even real catholics. They're shitheads.

*raises eyebrow* You may want to leave off with the flamebait...I won't report it, but as a Catholic who grew up in Texas I don't appreciate it and my experience tends to disagree with your assessment of those folks as shitheads.

Whoa. I guess I should've been more specific!

Texas. Texas catholics aren't even real catholics. They're shitheads.

I beg to differ. I've met a number of intelligent, liberal, kind Texan Catholics here on NationStates.

Edit: And Hotrodia happens to be one of them.

The key determinant is, as someone noted above, religious observance versus cultural identification. Catholics in the U.S. who attend Mass at least weekly (remember, Mass is offered every day) voted Republican about 2 to 1. Catholics who attend Mass once a month or less voted Democratic by about the same margin. Catholics overall broke for the Republicans about 55-45.

It's probable that similar numbers exist for just about all religious groups with a historical tradition greater than 100 years broke the same--Orthodox Jews went Republican about 4 to 1, while Reform Jews went Democratic by about the same ratio--though Orthodox Jews only count for about 10% of Jews in the U.S., though, so the overall Jewish vote went heavily Democratic.

The overall theory to explain this is that the modern secular state functions as an alternative ethical commitment to the traditional religious bodies, so that individuals who have distanced themselves from traditional religious practice affirm their ethical commitments through public policy rather than private creed.

educated guesses:

Catholics are more liberal, way more liberal (by %), than caucasian Protestants.

Catholics are way less liberal than non-caucasian Protestants.

(my guesses)

so it's not just Catholics vs. Protestants... it's Catholics vs. (insert color/race/ethnicity) Protestants.

Yeah, it would be nice to see to see people with religious beliefs stick to their doctrine. I find it really annoying to find Catholics support abortion and gay rights. Whether you agree with these issues or not doesn't matter but supposively the Church is against them. So if people are pushing to change this, then what is the point of having religious doctrine? Changing everytime something isn't PC isn't a religion it is just a fad.
It makes them part of a community. Being part of a religion means you're not part of another, you're special. They believe the world is about communities, and maybe it is. They help each other in their communities. They care for their people and expect other religions to care for theirs. Their rarely help people from other religion though. In essence, they are conservative.

It makes them part of a community. Being part of a religion means you're not part of another, you're special. They believe the world is about communities, and maybe it is. They help each other in their communities. They care for their people and expect other religions to care for theirs.

An excellent point. Like Psylos said, religion is not entirely about everybody agreeing that a specific act is wrong. Specifically, Christianity is about following the teachings of Christ as best we can according to the dictates of our conscience while being informed by the views of the community. At least that's my understanding, Utracia. :)

Their rarely help people from other religion though. In essence, they are conservative.

Interestingly, it seems that in my experience religious folks tend to help each other out just fine, and they even help out atheists who are in need. Unfortunately, there are a few religious folks who are more exclusive and won't do much for you unless you're in their sect. :(

The Catholics I know (and me) tend to be left on economic stuff, and wobbling around moderate on social issues (applying social issues to society, that is). Most Catholics I know tend to be libertarian socially, me included. "Protestant" is such a wide demographic it's impossible to say whether they're more liberal or not.

And Rotovia, why is it that I only ever notice AFTER THE FACT that your threads make up a vast majority of the threads I feel obliged to reply to? Mind control. It's gotta be intercontinental mind control.
Because I make the best threads in town. That and intercontinental mind control.

Yeah, it would be nice to see to see people with religious beliefs stick to their doctrine. I find it really annoying to find Catholics support abortion and gay rights. Whether you agree with these issues or not doesn't matter but supposively the Church is against them. So if people are pushing to change this, then what is the point of having religious doctrine? Changing everytime something isn't PC isn't a religion it is just a fad.
You're an idiot. What you're saying is like saying that because you disagree with The Republicans you're not an American.

This sounds strange, but unless you're Catholic you wouldn't understand. Catholicism is more than a religion, it's who you are. You may not agree with the The Church, you may not even believe in God, but you still value being a good Catholic.

Catholics overwhelmingly vote for Labour and the Liberal Democrats, and so therefore are overwhelmingly Liberals.

You're an idiot. What you're saying is like saying that because you disagree with The Republicans you're not an American.

This sounds strange, but unless you're Catholic you wouldn't understand. Catholicism is more than a religion, it's who you are. You may not agree with the The Church, you may not even believe in God, but you still value being a good Catholic.
He's not that idiot. What does it mean to be a good catholic? And what does it mean to be a good american? Can't you just be good people? Why do you have to associate yourself with a little community? Does it make you feel good? How do you feel when people critize the church, do you take it personnaly? Do you have to defend it?

Especially the Protestants in America, who descend from Quakers.
Actually from Quakers and Baptists. They were two separate groups that had been banished by the Puritans of New England or forced to flee from the Anglican South . At first, they mostly lived in Rhode Island and later Pennsylvania. Despite disagreeing with each other, they were very tolerant of each other’s beliefs.

This is based on pure observation. The Catholics I know, tend to be more left of centre then any of the protestants I know. I wanted to know what you guys thought. Think about all the Catholics you know (exclude people's grandparents because old people are normally very much right of centre) and compare them to the Protestants you know (same go with old people), do a little mental maths.


The under-thirty US Catholics I know are fairly liberal... but the Lutherans/Reformed Church members I know are WAY more liberal.

The under-thirty US Catholics I know are fairly liberal... but the Lutherans/Reformed Church members I know are WAY more liberal.
My experience is that Southern Baptists (okay, most Baptists, but Southerns are worse) kind of make up for the liberalism in the Lutheran church.....

Whoa. I guess I should've been more specific!

Texas. Texas catholics aren't even real catholics.
Oh, okay....so you mean the part of the south I haven't been. Fair enough, I certainly can't argue on that one!

I really hate repeating myself, but...
The Catholic Church sees nothing wrong with homosexuality. It sees that it is something that occurs naturally, and that people so inclined are called to a life of chastity, to better find out what God's plan is for them.
-Taken from: Catechism of the Catholic Church 2nd Edition
Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Promulgated by Pope John Paul III

He's not that idiot. Yes he is. What does it mean to be a good catholic? To attend Mass, to live a life of goodness. (from the Schism) And what does it mean to be a good american? I think this was actual my arguement. That being Catholic (or American) is an association with that institution. Can't you just be good people? Yes we can be, and most of us are. Can't I be a good Catholic to? Why do you have to associate yourself with a little community? 1. Little Community? There are over a Billion of us. 2. It' MY community Does it make you feel good? Being Catholic? I wasn't aware being a member of a group made you feel anything. Does being Human make you feel good? How do you feel when people critize the church, do you take it personnaly? No, as I said I donot agree with all the teachings of the Mother Church. I'm normally the one doing the criticizing [?QUOTE] Do you have to defend it? Depends what agaisnt. Normally I'll leave it up to Dracos & Associates, they get paid to do it.

Texas. Texas catholics aren't even real catholics. They're shitheads.
What the heck? Why do you get to label who is and who isn’t a “real” Catholic. You just insulted a great many Hispanics and other Catholic Texans.

No One Make Fun Of Catholics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No One Make Fun Of Catholics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's an uphill battle, dude. Give up while you can still save face.

Depends on the protestant mostly. Evangelicals like Baptists, as well as morality/work ethic sects like the Calvinists are usually as rightwing as they come, while those Presbytarians I have known, for example, are quite impressively open and tolerant. The Catholics are very consistently right of center, but left of the Evangelicals, owing, I suspect, to the Evangelical tendancy to view politics and government as one more way to spread the word of God to anyone who looks to be enjoying anything worldly, or learning anything significant.
*Apologies to Evangelicals who don't see themselves that way, I'm sure you aren't even mostly that bad, but, like most faith based groups, you are perpetually accountable for the words and actions of the extremists among you, despite any attempts you make to distance yourselves from them*

According to Australian research, Mapping homophobia... Catholics are the most liberal-minded with baptists the most bigoted, however the study did not include the evangelist types you guys have in America so baptists might not be as bad...

http://www.tai.org.au/Publications_Files/Papers&Sub_Files/Homophobia%20webpaper%20Final.pdf

What I love is proof that homophobia is directly linked to education levels and exist polls from the national election in the states showed that the more educated a person, the less likely they are to vote republican, he he

According to Australian research, Mapping homophobia... Catholics are the most liberal-minded with baptists the most bigoted, however the study did not include the evangelist types you guys have in America so baptists might not be as bad...

http://www.tai.org.au/Publications_Files/Papers&Sub_Files/Homophobia%20webpaper%20Final.pdf

What I love is proof that homophobia is directly linked to education levels and exist polls from the national election in the states showed that the more educated a person, the less likely they are to vote republican, he he
I can see where this is going... and I plan to duck for cover...

Because we all know that homosexuality is the only issue seperating liberals and conservatives.

Depends on how one defines conservative; the good old fashion conservative was the "get the government out of the lives of its citizens and allow individual rights and responsibilty take presidence over having a big bossy nanny state".

Now it seems that conservatism has be hijacked by the religious nuts, who can't be bothered forming their own party, and on the left, you have out of touch Troskites pushing this re-invited socialism.

The sad part, neither side actually address what people want in their lives.

This is based on pure observation. The Catholics I know, tend to be more left of centre then any of the protestants I know. I wanted to know what you guys thought. Think about all the Catholics you know (exclude people's grandparents because old people are normally very much right of centre) and compare them to the Protestants you know (same go with old people), do a little mental maths.

Hey, what do you mean "old people?" I resemble that remark. :D

I am a non-practicing Catholic and a conservative. Yes, I have noticed Catholics tend to be a bit more liberal than Protestants. It would be interesting to see a scientific poll on that.

Hey, what do you mean "old people?" I resemble that remark. :D

I am a non-practicing Catholic and a conservative. Yes, I have noticed Catholics tend to be a bit more liberal than Protestants. It would be interesting to see a scientific poll on that.

well, I came so good at Catholicism, I stopped praticing.

Now I am a buddhist :D

You're an idiot. What you're saying is like saying that because you disagree with The Republicans you're not an American.

This sounds strange, but unless you're Catholic you wouldn't understand. Catholicism is more than a religion, it's who you are. You may not agree with the The Church, you may not even believe in God, but you still value being a good Catholic. Why is he an idiot? A religion is quite different to a political party - the very word religion means "way of life". If you follow Catholicism, you follow the idea of its moral authority.

Don't you remember Bush saying he "talked to god" before invading Iraq? :rolleyes:

Of course! But I also remember that Pope John Paul II. took clear position versus the Iraq war.

You're an idiot. What you're saying is like saying that because you disagree with The Republicans you're not an American.

This sounds strange, but unless you're Catholic you wouldn't understand. Catholicism is more than a religion, it's who you are. You may not agree with the The Church, you may not even believe in God, but you still value being a good Catholic.

I'm a Catholic convert, and this shocks me. I mean, the reason I came here was BECAUSE I couldn't identify with my other religion. I'm not saying you should leave Catholicism, but you may want to seriously consider what you believe. Struggling with a specific aspect of church teaching but not wanting to splinter off into your own little group is one thing... staying where you are just because your family started there 'culturally' is something else entirely.

Of course! But I also remember that Pope John Paul II. took clear position versus the Iraq war.
But we all know how good Bush's communication skills are.

(sorry couldn't resist.)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet: in America, a practicing Catholic who agrees with everything this pope and the one before him has said has no political party to vote for. I am:

-Against abortion and infant euthanasia
-Against the death penalty
-Against generic euthanasia (not counting cases of brain death)
-Against government-sponsored homosexual marriage (and starting to be against any government-sponsored marriage entirely)
-Against the Iraq war
-Against 'Affirmative Action'
-For more social equality
-For the environment
-For presumed consent organ collection

Of course, I've rambled a bit. Only the first four are specifically addressed by the Church I believe, and the fifth one is only the popes' opinion (read as: not dogma or any such). And I'm not sure which political party is with me on the organ issue, though you Europeans seem to be on the ball with that one.

But still, it bothers me when I take political tests and come out as a 'Centrist' or a 'Moderate'. As cool as the phrase 'Centrist Totalitarian' sounds, I am not by any means moderate or contradictory; the two American political parties have simply picked issues at random. My sister and I argue all the time because I am Pro-Life, she is Pro-Death (in favor of the death penalty and abortion), and neither of us has a political party.

I can tell you quite honestly that if the Democratic Party would acknowledge that pre-natal folk have human rights equal to any other person, I would vote for them in an instant.

Incidentally, I am a white, male Texan. Texas rocks. Go see the former embassy site in Paris.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet: in America, a practicing Catholic who agrees with everything this pope and the one before him has said has no political party to vote for. I am:

-Against abortion and infant euthanasia
-Against the death penalty
-Against generic euthanasia (not counting cases of brain death)
-Against government-sponsored homosexual marriage (and starting to be against any government-sponsored marriage entirely)
-Against the Iraq war
-Against 'Affirmative Action'
-For more social equality
-For the environment
-For presumed consent organ collection

Of course, I've rambled a bit. Only the first four are specifically addressed by the Church I believe, and the fifth one is only the popes' opinion (read as: not dogma or any such). And I'm not sure which political party is with me on the organ issue, though you Europeans seem to be on the ball with that one.

But still, it bothers me when I take political tests and come out as a 'Centrist' or a 'Moderate'. As cool as the phrase 'Centrist Totalitarian' sounds, I am not by any means moderate or contradictory; the two American political parties have simply picked issues at random. My sister and I argue all the time because I am Pro-Life, she is Pro-Death (in favor of the death penalty and abortion), and neither of us has a political party.

I can tell you quite honestly that if the Democratic Party would acknowledge that pre-natal folk have human rights equal to any other person, I would vote for them in an instant.

Incidentally, I am a white, male Texan. Texas rocks. Go see the former embassy site in Paris. Hooray, another one! Catholic that is, not white male Texan.

So would you decribe yourself, as a Catholic, as socially liberal? By that I mean that you wouldn't ban contraception or things like that because they don't harm others (but might be against abortion because of the "infringing on rights" thing)? 'Cos that's where liberality/conservatism is decided.

educated guesses:

Catholics are more liberal, way more liberal (by %), than caucasian Protestants.

Catholics are way less liberal than non-caucasian Protestants.

(my guesses)

so it's not just Catholics vs. Protestants... it's Catholics vs. (insert color/race/ethnicity) Protestants.

I think that American Catholics have a tendency toward more
liberal ideas then other Catholic countries. You look at any other truely
Catholic nation and they seem like hard core Catholics compared to
Americans. Where did the idea of Catholic Priests getting married is ok?
Or since when is allowing women become preists,(no offense to any females out there)? or this whole Church abuse scandal? Being a realcatholic means saying no to abortion, regardless. Killing innocent lives because the baby is seen as an inconvienance is not anybody's right. However, I am for the death penalty for murderers who brutally murder innocent people. heck, god himself killed bad people in the Bible. It is against the Ten Commandments.

I think that American Catholics have a tendency toward more
liberal ideas then other Catholic countries. You look at any other truely
Catholic nation and they seem like hard core Catholics compared to
Americans. Where did the idea of Catholic Priests getting married is ok?
Or since when is allowing women become preists,(no offense to any females out there)? or this whole Church abuse scandal? Being a realcatholic means saying no to abortion, regardless. Killing innocent lives because the baby is seen as an inconvienance is not anybody's right. However, I am for the death penalty for murderers who brutally murder innocent people. heck, god himself killed bad people in the Bible. It is against the Ten Commandments. You could have just said "I'm a traditional no-nonsense Catholic", you know.

You could have just said "I'm a traditional no-nonsense Catholic", you know.
I guess. ;)

But over all you have to used your head
and not over do anything. Too much of anything
can be a bad thing.
To those out there trying to make Catholism
more liberal(ie yes to abortion, yes to
women in the preisthood, etc.)
forget it. Not gonna happen
in a million years.
To those religious fanatics trying to force scientific
studies out and not look at common sense
in many issues, shut up.
Get with the times. We cannot just turn our backs
on science all together.

Varies from person to person. On the one hand, some catholics support communist groups in south america while others claim that gays and non-catholics will burn in hell for all eternity. Some protestants are anarchists who want a classless society while others are... Fred Phelps.

over all,
its the people who make the decisions.

So would you decribe yourself, as a Catholic, as socially liberal? By that I mean that you wouldn't ban contraception or things like that because they don't harm others (but might be against abortion because of the "infringing on rights" thing)? 'Cos that's where liberality/conservatism is decided.

Well, to an extent. I suppose I can't condone something like banning contraception because it does not damage a third party (sperm, though living human DNA, lacks the chromosome count to be an individual; it cannot grow and develop without more than sustenance). I wish more people would see the pro-life stance for how liberal it is.

And environmentalism. I'm more environmentalist than libertarian.

I think that American Catholics have a tendency toward more liberal ideas then other Catholic countries. You look at any other truely Catholic nation and they seem like hard core Catholics compared to
Americans. Where did the idea of Catholic Priests getting married is ok?

Today churches in the Anglican Rite and Eastern Rite are allowed to have married priests. St. Peter, the first pope, was married himself.

The Latin Rite (which is most common) does not allow married priests for now because it is believed that priests should be so devoted to their congregations, and fathers should be so devoted to their families. The belief is that being both would stretch you too thin (a belief that comes primarily from St. Paul in the book of Romans). This is not a matter of specific Christian faith; it is just what the Latin Rite has decided to be best. It could foreseeably change in the future, though I'm inclined to agree with it.


Or since when is allowing women become preists,(no offense to any females out there)?

That's Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, which is the most liberal traditionalist church confederation I know.

This matter IS faith-oriented and not likely to change in the future. There's just so much, mainly with equality not being the same as interchangeability. Not to be crude, but Christ had to be male because he comes into us, and we receive him. Just as males are to illustrate how Christ gives the gift, females illustrate how we all are to receive Him. He is the bridegroom, and we are the bride. The priest acts in... I don't remember the word, but it has something to do presenting Him.

Females have their roles. All of the Apostles may have been men, but almost all of the men ran away when Jesus was crucified; most of those still at the cross were loyal, faithful women. Mary is the mother of God through some paradox we're all still trying to understand; I can ask you or my neighbor to pray for me, but we Catholics especially recognize that Mary's prayers are better and purer than any other non-God human. People who subscribe to the DaVinci Code craze that the early Church tried to downplay women's role seem to forget Catholics' veneration for Mary and other female saints. I've heard that nuns were some of the most respected, power-wielding women back in the day, but I don't know how true that is.

or this whole Church abuse scandal?

Yeah, that's American. Terrible.

Being a realcatholic means saying no to abortion, regardless. Killing innocent lives because the baby is seen as an inconvienance is not anybody's right.

That's also American. I don't understand why there are so many 'disagreeing Catholics' running for Democrats. I would have liked Kerry a lot more if he had... uh!

However, I am for the death penalty for murderers who brutally murder innocent people. heck, god himself killed bad people in the Bible. It is against the Ten Commandments.

You sure you're not from Texas too? :D
The death penalty is actually not condemned on the same level as abortion, mainly because the prenatals are innocent as you said. If you're in a society where you cannot physically control a dangerous killer, then the Church acknowledges that it may be necessary to put him/her down. That, however, is not the case in this age. We can hold killers, we can try to rehabilitate them, and we can pray for a change in their hearts. It's rough on the tax dollars, sure, but it's definately Pro-Life.

At this moment, no option has less than 20% or more than 30% of the votes. Fun!

Well, to an extent. I suppose I can't condone something like banning contraception because it does not damage a third party (sperm, though living human DNA, lacks the chromosome count to be an individual; it cannot grow and develop without more than sustenance). I wish more people would see the pro-life stance for how liberal it is.

And environmentalism. I'm more environmentalist than libertarian.



Today churches in the Anglican Rite and Eastern Rite are allowed to have married priests. St. Peter, the first pope, was married himself.

The Latin Rite (which is most common) does not allow married priests for now because it is believed that priests should be so devoted to their congregations, and fathers should be so devoted to their families. The belief is that being both would stretch you too thin (a belief that comes primarily from St. Paul in the book of Romans). This is not a matter of specific Christian faith; it is just what the Latin Rite has decided to be best. It could foreseeably change in the future, though I'm inclined to agree with it.




That's Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, which is the most liberal traditionalist church confederation I know.

This matter IS faith-oriented and not likely to change in the future. There's just so much, mainly with equality not being the same as interchangeability. Not to be crude, but Christ had to be male because he comes into us, and we receive him. Just as males are to illustrate how Christ gives the gift, females illustrate how we all are to receive Him. He is the bridegroom, and we are the bride. The priest acts in... I don't remember the word, but it has something to do presenting Him.

Females have their roles. All of the Apostles may have been men, but almost all of the men ran away when Jesus was crucified; most of those still at the cross were loyal, faithful women. Mary is the mother of God through some paradox we're all still trying to understand; I can ask you or my neighbor to pray for me, but we Catholics especially recognize that Mary's prayers are better and purer than any other non-God human. People who subscribe to the DaVinci Code craze that the early Church tried to downplay women's role seem to forget Catholics' veneration for Mary and other female saints. I've heard that nuns were some of the most respected, power-wielding women back in the day, but I don't know how true that is.



Yeah, that's American. Terrible.



That's also American. I don't understand why there are so many 'disagreeing Catholics' running for Democrats. I would have liked Kerry a lot more if he had... uh!



You sure you're not from Texas too? :D
The death penalty is actually not condemned on the same level as abortion, mainly because the prenatals are innocent as you said. If you're in a society where you cannot physically control a dangerous killer, then the Church acknowledges that it may be necessary to put him/her down. That, however, is not the case in this age. We can hold killers, we can try to rehabilitate them, and we can pray for a change in their hearts. It's rough on the tax dollars, sure, but it's definately Pro-Life.

I must say this has been the best response I have ever read!
Naw, I ain't no Texan!
Chicagoan! lol! ;)
In this age, I see that when ever some murderer goes free
on "good behavior" they end up in prison for the same crime
a few months later. I dont like being soft on criminals!
Those who want to repent should be allowed, but ONLY
given one chance to fly straight. This does not apply
to serial killers, rapists, murderers, or child abusers.
They should all be suffering in hell, or in a good old fashoned
rock quarry breaking big rocks into smaller rocks.
Or a salt mine. Little more whipping though.
and beatings, but I guess that is against the cruel
and unusual punishment. damn! lol! Over all
I dont think we should lethal injection, because all it does
is put you into a peaceful sleep. No! Why should a murderer
who visiously killed a person or people get the luxury
of getting a peaceful death? Bring back old sparky!
and hangings, and dont forget everyones favorite,
death by firing squad!

I must say this has been the best response I have ever read!
Naw, I ain't no Texan!
Chicagoan! lol! ;)
In this age, I see that when ever some murderer goes free
on "good behavior" they end up in prison for the same crime
a few months later. I dont like being soft on criminals!
Those who want to repent should be allowed, but ONLY
given one chance to fly straight. This does not apply
to serial killers, rapists, murderers, or child abusers.
They should all be suffering in hell, or in a good old fashoned
rock quarry breaking big rocks into smaller rocks.
Or a salt mine. Little more whipping though.
and beatings, but I guess that is against the cruel
and unusual punishment. damn! lol! Over all
I dont think we should lethal injection, because all it does
is put you into a peaceful sleep. No! Why should a murderer
who visiously killed a person or people get the luxury
of getting a peaceful death? Bring back old sparky!
and hangings, and dont forget everyones favorite,
death by firing squad! Good Lord, calm down.
I'm more for the "Arbeit Macht Frei" style of prison… in that you work to earn your keep, and hopefully, if you're not actually one of the worst criminals, come out with some job skills (seeing as most criminals are thick).

Oh and by the way, another (unspoken) reason for clerical celibacy is that families would be too hard on the Church's money. I think it's a perfectly legitimate reason.
I had a discussion with a Catholic friend of mine about contraception… I now fully accept the doctrine.
[EDIT/] Here's why: wait, I can't find the linking because our F-ing mail program has destroyed half our mail. Just look up humanae vitae or something on the vatican website, the reasoning's a bit complicated and I can't quite remember it.

Good Lord, calm down.
I'm more for the "Arbeit Macht Frei" style of prison… in that you work to earn your keep, and hopefully, if you're not actually one of the worst criminals, come out with some job skills (seeing as most criminals are thick).

yeah, i think so too.
I dont mind if some petty thief gets rehabed or
non violent prisoners get rehabed and get
a job skill.
I like the idea they used to have in Poland.
When you were convicted of a serious crime
you lost all rights as a social member of society.
You were then thrown into a labor mine
or somewhere where you had to do major physical
work for your freedom. You had no rights, hence you
suffered for your crime. But today, hell you can get away
with murder if you just have a high priced lawyer and some good BS!
(cough OJ!) Sometimes I think our justice system tends to
favor the criminals more than the victims or the law abiding citizens.

yeah, i think so too.
I dont mind if some petty thief gets rehabed or
non violent prisoners get rehabed and get
a job skill.
I like the idea they used to have in Poland.
When you were convicted of a serious crime
you lost all rights as a social member of society.
You were then thrown into a labor mine
or somewhere where you had to do major physical
work for your freedom. You had no rights, hence you
suffered for your crime. But today, hell you can get away
with murder if you just have a high priced lawyer and some good BS!
(cough OJ!) Sometimes I think our justice system tends to
favor the criminals more than the victims or the law abiding citizens. It's not just the violent criminals; non-violent or petty criminals are thrown into jail for a few months/years and then chucked out again to get addicted on crack again or working for a dealer. Sux0rz.

A couple of my friends (well three) went to the world youth day… apparently it was great and there were activists handing around boxes of contraceptives - some people took an armful and then threw them on the floor.
[EDIT/] Why has this become the "Catholic Union" thread? :D

The priest acts in... I don't remember the word, but it has something to do presenting Him.

In persona christae. It's the same thing for giving absolution during confession.

Many American Catholics are liberal (by our standards), but I wonder if they'd be viewed as such in other countries.

I'm a Catholic convert, and this shocks me. I mean, the reason I came here was BECAUSE I couldn't identify with my other religion. I'm not saying you should leave Catholicism, but you may want to seriously consider what you believe. Struggling with a specific aspect of church teaching but not wanting to splinter off into your own little group is one thing... staying where you are just because your family started there 'culturally' is something else entirely.
Because Catholicism is not just a religion. The word Catholic means light, it is the idea that Catholics contain a light that tohers donot that is binding force in our beliefs. If you cannot understand why no matter what you believe to be true, you cannot seperate yourself from The Mother Church, then I don't think you are Catholic.

This is why excommunication is the worst punishment imaginable, to be cut off nor just from God, but the Church.

I am not Catholic because my family is Catholic, I am Catholic because I am. I am what I am, I am Who I Am, I Am Catholic, I Am Liberal.

Also, it's still herasy to reccomend spintering off into a new church...

I am neither Catholic, nor Protestant - but my observation of both attitudes is that Catholics are definately more liberal.
The Protestants are the product of an "I have ideas that I don't need to argue, so I'll found my very own Church" mentality. Every extreme right-wing was in a more natural connection with Protestants than it was with Catholics. And, sadly, potentialy offensive ideas do exist as such in some Protestant churches (Calvin and his notion of predestination - ultimately, enforcable as "failiure from birth"; the Dutch Reformed and apartheid).
Catholicism is reserved, if anything. And it enforces an constant attitude, one that will be active in debates, and not shun the complexity of the world. That can even make it extremely revolutionary - backing labour movements in Poland etc.

I'm in Canada. EVERYONE is more liberal.

Because Catholicism is not just a religion. The word Catholic means light, it is the idea that Catholics contain a light that tohers donot that is binding force in our beliefs. If you cannot understand why no matter what you believe to be true, you cannot seperate yourself from The Mother Church, then I don't think you are Catholic.

This is why excommunication is the worst punishment imaginable, to be cut off nor just from God, but the Church.

I am not Catholic because my family is Catholic, I am Catholic because I am. I am what I am, I am Who I Am, I Am Catholic, I Am Liberal.

Okay, you make some excellent points, and perhaps I misinterpreted you. On some levels, such as policy and liturgy, disagreement is healthy for the Church. It can hopefully help us from making as many mistakes, like we have in the past.

But, with your quote earlier...

This sounds strange, but unless you're Catholic you wouldn't understand. Catholicism is more than a religion, it's who you are. You may not agree with the The Church, you may not even believe in God, but you still value being a good Catholic.

If you go so far as to not believe in God, or that Christ sacrificed Himself for us... well, that's a central tenet. The Catholic Church is not going to change its belief that God exists, so people who do not believe that (and still believe that the Catholic Church is the true church) need to do some serious reflection, and hopefully it will make them believe in God.

If they defiantly refuse to believe in God, then they have separated themselves from the church. Excommunication only acknowledges what the person has already done; someone can be separated from the Church without it being officially proclaimed. Excommunication is generally reserved for public figures, and today it's used VERY sparingly because of the current trend in the Church to give people the benefit of the doubt.

So, yeah, you can disagree with policy. With your arguments in mind, I'm actually growing to understand how someone can be for abortion, contraception, and/or the death penalty while still being Catholic... though I still maintain my arguments against each of those practices. But, as you said, "Catholics contain a light . . . that is binding force in our beliefs." For that statement to mean anything, we have to have common beliefs. If a person goes to Mass every day while comfortably believing that the priest is offering no more than mere wine and crackers... then that person is wasting his or her time.

Also, it's still herasy to reccomend spintering off into a new church...

That is true, and I don't recommend it. But, as J.P. Junior said, we are called to live our belief. Our lives have to mean something to us, after all.

Okay, you make some excellent points, and perhaps I misinterpreted you. On some levels, such as policy and liturgy, disagreement is healthy for the Church. It can hopefully help us from making as many mistakes, like we have in the past.

But, with your quote earlier...



If you go so far as to not believe in God, or that Christ sacrificed Himself for us... well, that's a central tenet. The Catholic Church is not going to change its belief that God exists, so people who do not believe that (and still believe that the Catholic Church is the true church) need to do some serious reflection, and hopefully it will make them believe in God.

If they defiantly refuse to believe in God, then they have separated themselves from the church. Excommunication only acknowledges what the person has already done; someone can be separated from the Church without it being officially proclaimed. Excommunication is generally reserved for public figures, and today it's used VERY sparingly because of the current trend in the Church to give people the benefit of the doubt.

So, yeah, you can disagree with policy. With your arguments in mind, I'm actually growing to understand how someone can be for abortion, contraception, and/or the death penalty while still being Catholic... though I still maintain my arguments against each of those practices. But, as you said, "Catholics contain a light . . . that is binding force in our beliefs." For that statement to mean anything, we have to have common beliefs. If a person goes to Mass every day while comfortably believing that the priest is offering no more than mere wine and crackers... then that person is wasting his or her time.



That is true, and I don't recommend it. But, as J.P. Junior said, we are called to live our belief. Our lives have to mean something to us, after all.
I hope you do not mind, but I cannot be arsed breaking your post down into seperate quotes, and addressing each arguement so it is easier for you to veiw. As is normally my policy. Instead I will just offer a series of response bellow.

1) Beyond I doubt I believe in God, my interpretation of the nature of God may be slightly different because I prefer a more logic based approach.
2) Excommunication requires neither a formal decree, nor is it sparcly used. The evidence of this is the doctrine of Automatic Excommunication for women who have abortions. Keep in mind Excommunication is intended to teach a Catholic the error of their ways by showing them the seperation from God they will feel in death before the die, not to punish them.
3) As Catholics we do have a common set of beliefs, The Apostolic Creed & The Schism.
4) The idea of the Light of The Church, is that as Catholics we are special and will always be special.
5) If a person goes to Mass a partakes in Holy Communion witht he belief they are only eating wine and crackers they eat judgement upon themselves.
6) You cannot have it both ways, you cannot reccomend someone "give meaning to their lives" if that meaning is herasy. There is no wiggle room on this issue.
7) I am Holy Roman Catholic, my Birth, Baptism, Confirmation & First Communion who does not believe in Clergy Celebacy, or that homosexuality is a sin, I do not support abortion but support the right of a woman to choose and that the Church has no place in secular law, I do not support euthanasia except in complete brain death & lastly I donot support the death penalty.

I'm in Canada. EVERYONE is more liberal.
That's so true, even your rightwing is pretty liberal.

CanadianRightWinger: "Homosexuality is sin... but gosh damnit I love the gays... ah, what's say we let 'em marry, eh?"

2) Excommunication requires neither a formal decree, nor is it sparcly used. The evidence of this is the doctrine of Automatic Excommunication for women who have abortions. Keep in mind Excommunication is intended to teach a Catholic the error of their ways by showing them the seperation from God they will feel in death before the die, not to punish them.

Ah, I had not known of the automatic excommunication thing. I had known that people can separate themselves without the church saying that it has happened, and I did know that it's a practice to correct instead of punish. What I meant by sparingly is that we do not hear the Vatican excommunicating specific, named public officials very often nowadays.

3) As Catholics we do have a common set of beliefs, The Apostolic Creed & The Schism.
5) If a person goes to Mass a partakes in Holy Communion witht he belief they are only eating wine and crackers they eat judgement upon themselves.

Yes, yes! Agreed.

4) The idea of the Light of The Church, is that as Catholics we are special and will always be special.

Right, but not because of birth, but because we've answered the call and accepted Christ and His Church. The light comes from Christ, and anyone can obtain this light, but they must accept and receive it.

6) You cannot have it both ways, you cannot reccomend someone "give meaning to their lives" if that meaning is herasy. There is no wiggle room on this issue.

Right, but you say that as someone who does adhere to the Apostles' Creed and such. If someone is born Catholic, does not believe in God, practices hatred and/or bigotry, and goes around saying that he/she is Catholic, then that person will do more damage than good to everyone. This is how people get ideas like "Catholics still think Jesus is dead" or "Catholics worship statues". By saying that a person's life must have meaning, I was not recommending that people run off and form religions around their specific beliefs, I was recommending that they continue searching their hearts for the truth. Since we believe Catholicism is the truth, it should lead them to beliefs more in accordance with the Church.

7) I am Holy Roman Catholic, my Birth, Baptism, Confirmation & First Communion who does not believe in Clergy Celebacy, or that homosexuality is a sin, I do not support abortion but support the right of a woman to choose and that the Church has no place in secular law, I do not support euthanasia except in complete brain death & lastly I donot support the death penalty.

You might believe that clergy need not be celebate, but this is not an issue of faith. Still, you probably wouldn't attend a Mass that was presided over by a married priest without dispensation who was not in communion with Rome.

Homosexuality, in the sense of homosexual acts, has major Biblical issues and has always been condemned by the Church. People naturally inclined toward homosexual acts are people like any other, as we all have inclinations to their own specific sins. Fornication, hetersexual sodomy, masturbation, all of these are sinful activities that many people are inclined toward. The homosexuals are not alone.

With the abortion issue, I strangely find myself much more offended on a logical level than a religious one. Oh... I'll have to start a new thread for this one.

It's a tricky issue with religion and secular law. I'm inclined to agree with you there, though I'm not certain whether I should. I completely agree with you on the last two issues.

Don't you all realize that all religions are culturally induced manifestations of our natural struggle to comprehend our exsistance and place in the universe? That the MAN-MADE institutions that you are quibbling about (more liberal, less liberal, more conservative, less conservative --let's see how many stereotypes we can trot out) are all flawed and fall short of God? Believe what you will and worship as you want but spare me the pious catechism.

To those out there trying to make Catholism
more liberal(ie yes to abortion, yes to
women in the preisthood, etc.)
forget it. Not gonna happen
in a million years.


Yes, and exactly this I value at the catholic church. This makes the difference between a church and a political party that gives itself each few years a more liberal or more conservative program. The chatholic church sticks to their "program" because the bible can not be rewritten - no matter what is "modern" or not.

Here the protestant church has female pastors and factly tolerates abortion by saying nothing about this issue. I can't say we're in better condition than the catholic church.

Don't you all realize that all religions are culturally induced manifestations of our natural struggle to comprehend our exsistance and place in the universe? That the MAN-MADE institutions that you are quibbling about (more liberal, less liberal, more conservative, less conservative --let's see how many stereotypes we can trot out) are all flawed and fall short of God? Believe what you will and worship as you want but spare me the pious catechism.

I bolded the "fall short of God" because that's the one I'm answering. Yes, we as Catholics fall short of God, but we realize that (or, we should). This is why Jesus had to die for everyone. We cannot reach heaven ourselves, obtain pure enlightenment ourselves, or any such thing. We rely on Him and His mercy. Most Christian denominations adhere to that.

The purely "man-made institution" point is inarguable from either side.

Yes, and exactly this I value at the catholic church. This makes the difference between a church and a political party that gives itself each few years a more liberal or more conservative program. The chatholic church sticks to their "program" because the bible can not be rewritten - no matter what is "modern" or not.

Here the protestant church has female pastors and factly tolerates abortion by saying nothing about this issue. I can't say we're in better condition than the catholic church.

I agree with everything you're saying except the very very last point. In all fairness, Protestant churches generally DO speak and work against abortion.

Yes, and exactly this I value at the catholic church. This makes the difference between a church and a political party that gives itself each few years a more liberal or more conservative program. The chatholic church sticks to their "program" because the bible can not be rewritten - no matter what is "modern" or not.

Here the protestant church has female pastors and factly tolerates abortion by saying nothing about this issue. I can't say we're in better condition than the catholic church. Join us. Together we will rule the galaxy as father and son.

I don't think the Catholic Church is going to change anytime soon (which is THE definition of conservatives). Even thought about 3/4 of Catholics use contraception and a great deal want womens' ordination, the Church won't listen to popular opinion because it's not a democratic institution, which is as it should be.