NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, so I'm not really sure how the pledge of allegiance works in the United States (we don't have one in Canada really), but I find the whole issue kind of disturbing. It seems to almost be a form of brainwashing, which isn't a term I like to use, but the picture that has been painted in my mind by my American friends is one of kids reciting this pledge every day in a sort of dazed monotone. If I am wrong, I would greatly appreciate any correction you could provide. As I see it though, America is one of the few developed countries where people's loyalty can be questioned based solely on their political affiliation. The idea of political opponents attacking each other as unpatriotic is confusing and unnerving to say the least. When I am a citizen of a country I find that I am loyal to laws the of that country, not the country itself. Here's what I mean:

I pay my taxes because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I would fight if drafted because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

If I chose to refuse to be drafted I would accept all penalties associated with that decision because that is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I guess my point is this: is loyalty to a country required of citizens, or merely loyalty to that country's laws? Does demanding loyalty to the country itself cause unnecessary political bickering as each side tries to defend its own view of its country and paint their opponents as disloyal?

gott mit uns... etc

Solely tradition, students are not forced to do it. We do it out of respect for the country.

I do see what you're saying. Our political parties attack each other waaay too much. Both sides do it, but it's mainly started by the democrats.

Okay, so I'm not really sure how the pledge of allegiance works in the United States (we don't have one in Canada really), but I find the whole issue kind of disturbing. It seems to almost be a form of brainwashing, which isn't a term I like to use, but the picture that has been painted in my mind by my American friends is one of kids reciting this pledge every day in a sort of dazed monotone. If I am wrong, I would greatly appreciate any correction you could provide. As I see it though, America is one of the few developed countries where people's loyalty can be questioned based solely on their political affiliation. The idea of political opponents attacking each other as unpatriotic is confusing and unnerving to say the least. When I am a citizen of a country I find that I am loyal to laws the of that country, not the country itself. Here's what I mean:

I pay my taxes because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I would fight if drafted because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

If I chose to refuse to be drafted I would accept all penalties associated with that decision because that is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I guess my point is this: is loyalty to a country required of citizens, or merely loyalty to that country's laws? Does demanding loyalty to the country itself cause unnecessary political bickering as each side tries to defend its own view of its country and paint their opponents as disloyal?

Hmm. The United States is more of a concept than just a utilitarian, sterile, and bureaucratic set of laws. Devotion to one's country here in the US of A is more than just not breaking the law, it's about respect for the country's values and traditions. Americans are from such diverse backgrounds, I think, so loyalty to the concept of America is sort of what binds us, gives us a national character. Kids do recite the pledge of allegiance like that, but it's not really like brainwashing. You just sort of memorize the pledge and after a while it stops meaning anything to you. I've been able to recite it from heart since I was 5 years old, but I didn't actually analyze the words until I was a teenager. So much for successful brainwashing. Anyway, it's not just about the mindless following of laws. If it were, we wouldn't have had a revolution in the first place. We respect laws, we generally follow them, we're ALWAYS complaining about them, but we tend to separate loyalty to the country from loyalty to the government or any current administration.

*Edit: Yes, it causes bickering, but not unnecessary bickering. Bickering can be good, it's the catalyst for change sometimes. And painting one's opponents as disloyal is as old as the country itself, but we're still here, our written constitution is the oldest in the world, and we don't seem on the brink of extinction yet.

Your "monotone" theory is at least half-correct. It's not because we've been brainwashed, but because most of us are still half asleep.

In my school at least, you are not required to recite the Pledge, which makes my life that much easier, as I have no real "loyalty" to my nation either, just adherence to the laws that define me as a citizen.

I do see what you're saying. Our political parties attack each other waaay too much. Both sides do it, but it's mainly started by the democrats.
Mainly started by the democrats? Were you asleep from 1992 to 2000? The party that doesn't control the presidency is the one who starts it.

Your "monotone" theory is at least half-correct. It's not because we've been brainwashed, but because most of us are still half asleep.

In my school at least, you are not required to recite the Pledge, which makes my life that much easier, as I have no real "loyalty" to my nation either, just adherence to the laws that define me as a citizen.
So if it doesn't mean anything, why do you do it?

I was under the impression that it had to be important in some way for you to keep it around, though I guess I can understand if it's just tradition.

Original pledge

August 1892 - I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
*Added October 1892

1924 version - I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


1954 version - I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.



Francis Bellamy, the creator, considered adding equality as well but that wouldn't have gone over well with the school superintendants because they didn't believe in equality for women or blacks. As well he protested the 1924 change, and his daughter strenuously objected to the 1954 change which was pushed for by the Knights of Columbus.

That was informative. Thank you.

Okay, so I'm not really sure how the pledge of allegiance works in the United States (we don't have one in Canada really), but I find the whole issue kind of disturbing. It seems to almost be a form of brainwashing, which isn't a term I like to use, but the picture that has been painted in my mind by my American friends is one of kids reciting this pledge every day in a sort of dazed monotone. If I am wrong, I would greatly appreciate any correction you could provide. As I see it though, America is one of the few developed countries where people's loyalty can be questioned based solely on their political affiliation. The idea of political opponents attacking each other as unpatriotic is confusing and unnerving to say the least. When I am a citizen of a country I find that I am loyal to laws the of that country, not the country itself. Here's what I mean:

I pay my taxes because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I would fight if drafted because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

If I chose to refuse to be drafted I would accept all penalties associated with that decision because that is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I guess my point is this: is loyalty to a country required of citizens, or merely loyalty to that country's laws? Does demanding loyalty to the country itself cause unnecessary political bickering as each side tries to defend its own view of its country and paint their opponents as disloyal?it depends alot on the citizens. for instance

During WWII people sacrificed alot for the War Effort. Gas, Resources like Rubber, Aluminum, Growing their own veggies, Blood, time and energy. they did it because they supported their troops overseas and also their Government and their Country. Tales of the Mafia also lending their efforts are also present during this time. Patriotism, not Nationalism was running strong.

People were proud to be part of their Country and willing to sacrifice for the ideals it stood for. The great phrase, "Ask not what your Country can do for you, but What you can do for your Country" was a mantra.

That was then.

Now, it's the age of Instant Gratification, we want it now. the Me Era. Gone are the sacrifices people once made willingly. Instead of finding alternate transportations, or helping each other out, we would ranther complain about high gas prices and point fingers.

the idea of "Should we" has been replaced with the "Why Can't we" We enjoyed the freedom won by the blood of our forefathers that we see order now not as order, but as a restraint that should be thrown off, consequences be damned.

the Pledge, once a statement of one's pride for their country turned into a symbol of nationalism. To be scorned by the generation that followed those that exemplified our country, and to be declared a shameful relic that symbolized days of ignorance and foolishness.

The Heart of the Nation has hardened and the Union that once stood strong is now a true gathering of individuals who would rather look out for themselves than the Nation that gave them the Freedoms to be Individuals.

I say the pledge everyday with pride at my school. I don’t say anything during the “under God” part, of course, but that’s just the libertarian in me.

I am extremely loyal to the country, but not to many of its laws. I see my patriotism as more of a desire to correct the things that are wrong in the land I love.

It seems to almost be a form of brainwashing, which isn't a term I like to use, but the picture that has been painted in my mind by my American friends is one of kids reciting this pledge every day in a sort of dazed monotone.
Oh yes, my friend, and much more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

But what do you expect? If the government is going to run the schools, doesn't it get to decide if it can feed propaganda to the children? Read up more about the history of the National Anthem. Interesting stuff.


I pay my taxes because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I would fight if drafted because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

If I chose to refuse to be drafted I would accept all penalties associated with that decision because that is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I guess my point is this: is loyalty to a country required of citizens, or merely loyalty to that country's laws? Does demanding loyalty to the country itself cause unnecessary political bickering as each side tries to defend its own view of its country and paint their opponents as disloyal?

This is unfortunate. The laws of your country should not be so expansive to force you into slavery (draft) if the "common good" declares it necessary. Remember in the words of TJ, "...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," it is governments that should be pledging their allegiance to the people, not the other way around. The government has no claim on our lives, we have given it its power and, again in the words of TJ, "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." But America has moved far away from those principles (yes, I realize Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, but at least he gave a damned good defense against tyrannical slave drivers like himself.)

here in Texas they tried to make you say the state pledge to, but some kid sued and won, so we only have it voluntary. I sat down and refused to say it the other day and the teacher tried to give me detention, I brought it to the principal, who said they couldn't do anything. It's completely voluntary, although fewer and fewer people realize it

So if it doesn't mean anything, why do you do it?

I was under the impression that it had to be important in some way for you to keep it around, though I guess I can understand if it's just tradition.
It's important to some, and my theory is that by "some" it means (a) those in power who think they have a place to push us around, or (b) the gun-luvin' cousin-kissin' over-patriots who think that it's an attack just to not WANT to say the same thing over and over.

Personally, it means very little to me. I don't appreciate the way the USA has been heading for awhile now, though I wouldn't be so bold as to say that the entire Pledge is meaningless. I think that a lot of people are just desensitized to the meaning when the primary schools make us say it day in and day out as children.

And don't act like we're the only ones who were told to say it with the morning announcements, that CAN'T be true.

Edit: wow, I realized reading over this that my usually well-controlled sarcasm is tempered with a biting bit of cynicism tonight.....nevermind that first paragraph, someday when I'm less moody I'll go more into my REAL thoughts on the pledge, perhaps.....

So if it doesn't mean anything, why do you do it?

I was under the impression that it had to be important in some way for you to keep it around, though I guess I can understand if it's just tradition.

It's got a role kind of similar to the English Queen, if that helps you understand it better.

Orangians and JuNii have expressed quite well what many Americans might think of the Pledge. The Pledge is not something you think about often since the words come automatically, but analysis of the words will lead to conscious thought about the country and relationship to it. Many older people can be moved to tears if they speak it at a solemn occasion.

Its not brainwashing you social welfare monger.

Its not brainwashing you social welfare monger.
...

It was a question. I was asking to be enlightened.

Orangians and JuNii have expressed quite well what many Americans might think of the Pledge. The Pledge is not something you think about often since the words come automatically, but analysis of the words will lead to conscious thought about the country and relationship to it. Many older people can be moved to tears if they speak it at a solemn occasion.

Even I start to tear up when I recite the Pledge! Heck, I cry during the National Anthem too.

I guess its because both of my parents are or did serve in the military. I am a patriot of this nation and will do all I can to defend her from our enemies both foreign and domestic.

Even I start to tear up when I recite the Pledge! Heck, I cry during the National Anthem too.

I guess its because both of my parents are or did serve in the military. I am a patriot of this nation and will do all I can to defend her from our enemies both foreign and domestic.

I admit that as cynical and negative as I am, the Star-Spangled Banner really pulls on those heart strings. I even tear up when I read the Declaration of Independence. You know, I'm very patriotic, but I can't say that I've really been thrilled with any single administration in the history of my country. I recognize that ideals and practices rarely coincide. I love the ideals my country often fails to uphold and I respect the founding generation for its brilliance and contribution to the history of my country and the world.

...

It was a question. I was asking to be enlightened.
Psst... some just want a reaction...

If you really wanna know what the pledge is about, think about all the good things about America, her lands, the people you met that impressed and inspired you, the parts of her history you feel proud of, as well as imagining all the potential that this Nation can do... think of all that and say the pledge slowly (if you wish, you can skip over the "Under God") and when you are done, examine how you feel.

I admit that as cynical and negative as I am, the Star-Spangled Banner really pulls on those heart strings. I even tear up when I read the Declaration of Independence. You know, I'm very patriotic, but I can't say that I've really been thrilled with any single administration in the history of my country. I recognize that ideals and practices rarely coincide. I love the ideals my country often fails to uphold and I respect the founding generation for its brilliance and contribution to the history of my country and the world.

I couldn't have said it better myself :)

Solely tradition, students are not forced to do it. We do it out of respect for the country.

I do see what you're saying. Our political parties attack each other waaay too much. Both sides do it, but it's mainly started by the democrats.

Students who failed to recite the Pledge at my high school were given detention. Students who refused to stand or recite the Pledge were given detention and an F for Life Skills, which was ultimately 10% of one's Semester grade in that particular class. People suffered if they didn't conform and submit. I didn't, but I still did extremely well in my academics.

My experience with the pledge chiefly relates to the once-a-week recitation, typically on Monday's during my last 2 and 1/2 years of high school. By the end it wasn't really, said, more like grunted. Typically from a lack of sleep. There were always people who didn't stand for the pledge, in fact I didn't a couple times, not for any reasons in particular, just because I didn't feel like it.

In elementary school, the pledge is typically recited (as I remember it) on a daily basis. Chiefly out of tradition, if I remember correctly.

Students who failed to recite the Pledge at my high school were given detention. Students who refused to stand or recite the Pledge were given detention and an F for Life Skills, which was ultimately 10% of one's Semester grade in that particular class. People suffered if they didn't conform and submit. I didn't, but I still did extremely well in my academics.
Wow, I witnessed a teacher get berated for giving a kid a detention for not standing for the pledge. I also noticed the detention got removed, and the kid got their choice of a new class in place of the previous one.

Students who failed to recite the Pledge at my high school were given detention. Students who refused to stand or recite the Pledge were given detention and an F for Life Skills, which was ultimately 10% of one's Semester grade in that particular class. People suffered if they didn't conform and submit. I didn't, but I still did extremely well in my academics.
so how could they tell who was saying it and who was just Lipsynching?

Students who failed to recite the Pledge at my high school were given detention. Students who refused to stand or recite the Pledge were given detention and an F for Life Skills, which was ultimately 10% of one's Semester grade in that particular class. People suffered if they didn't conform and submit. I didn't, but I still did extremely well in my academics.
Which is odd because in high school the teachers don't care if you even stand up or not. Hell, you could be facing a complete opposite way and the teacher probably won't bother with you.

Though, in middle-school you were asked to at least stand up.

In elementary no one understands the significance of having to do the Pledge of Alligence. Everyone just assumes that you should do it because the teachers say to do it. Not like anyone has ever told them to NOT say the Pledge.

so how could they tell who was saying it and who was just Lipsynching?They can't. It's a wonderful alternative if you really don't feel like bothering to even talk if your feeling that crummy that day.

so how could they tell who was saying it and who was just Lipsynching?

I'm sure quite a few lipsynched. However, if someone's lips aren't moving at all, it's kind of obvious the student isn't reciting anything.

Which is odd because in high school the teachers don't care if you even stand up or not. Hell, you could be facing a complete opposite way and the teacher probably won't bother with you.

Though, in middle-school you were asked to at least stand up.

In elementary no one understands the significance of having to do the Pledge of Alligence. Everyone just assumes that you should do it because the teachers say to do it. Not like anyone has ever told them to NOT say the Pledge.

Obviously you didn't attend my high school. And yes, it was public, not some private boardschool. In middle school and elementary, I always stood up for the Pledge, but rarely recited it.

I'm sure quite a few lipsynched. However, if someone's lips aren't moving at all, it's kind of obvious the student isn't reciting anything.
so maybe the detention and penalty for Life Skills wasn't for saying the Pledge but not being smart enough to not getting caught... :D


Tho it would be funny to have the teacher realize that while everyone is "mouthing" the words, there is only one kid actually saying it.

so maybe the detention and penalty for Life Skills wasn't for saying the Pledge but not being smart enough to not getting caught... :D


Tho it would be funny to have the teacher realize that while everyone is "mouthing" the words, there is only one kid actually saying it.

The penalty for Life Skills was for refusing to stand up. The penalty for refusing to recite/lipsynch was detention. If you sat down and didn't move your lips, you got both.

We say the pledge but nobody really means it in fact the only thing i have allegence towards is the death penalty
:mp5:
:sniper:
kill em all

In my all my four years of high school, I never once stood up for the Pledge. Not because I didn't respect my country, it's just that I found it quite silly to recite a meaningless statement. But of course, when I was younger I did it all the time, since I was under the impression that we HAD to recite it, because we were never told otherwise. It wasn't until I was in 7th or 8th grade, that I was in the same class as a Jehovah's Witness, and I had always wondered why they didn't have to recite it, then someone told me that they don't recite it due to religious views, and that the pledge is not mandatory.

Anyway, end my life story. :p

From what I've heard from a few people, was that the '54 revision of the Pledge of Allegiance was made to demean the Soviet Union, and make us look more like a god fearing country. If that's not true, then I'll slap the people that told me. :)

In my all my four years of high school, I never once stood up for the Pledge. Not because I didn't respect my country, it's just that I found it quite silly to recite a meaningless statement.

How is it meaningless?

From what I've heard from a few people, was that the '54 revision of the Pledge of Allegiance was made to demean the Soviet Union, and make us look more like a god fearing country. If that's not true, then I'll slap the people that told me. :)

This here is actually true.

i am a american i havae more loetey to the world comunnatey then i do my nation the usa.i woud love to see the borders gone.but that is along way away but i have hope. for the draft i will not defent my nation i am a pacifist the woud go agenst fundamentel beilvies.so i havae more allegiance to the un the the usa. :fluffle:

we border eachother, but we still don't know what the hell the other is thinking.

Oh, the pledge. :D

One day, in sixth grade, I had one of those "Eureka" moments. We all started in on it, you know, "I pledge allegiance to the flag...". That's as far as I got. It occured to me I was pledging to be loyal to something akin to my bedsheet. It's a piece of cloth, and I was promising to be loyal to it! I found it amazingly silly, and haven't said it since.

Now, I've had it explained to me I'm supposed to think of it as pledging to be loyal to my country. Bull. You're pledging to be loyal to a piece of colored cloth... THEN the country "for which it stands".

Ha. I'm not loyal to colored cotton and I knew back then that the country didn't really care about a poor kid from the south at all. We were last on the list, behind third world countries of people the US goverment liked.

Well, for the past couple of decades, I've been having the last laugh.... :D

http://www.poofcat.com/july.html

Listen to this. This may help you understand the Pledge of Allegiance.

I hope you all listen to all of it.

http://www.poofcat.com/july.html

Listen to this. This may help you understand the Pledge of Allegiance.



Cute, but the sixth grader in me is still pointing out I'm promising to be loyal to a piece of cloth.

Oh, the pledge. :D

One day, in sixth grade, I had one of those "Eureka" moments. We all started in on it, you know, "I pledge allegiance to the flag...". That's as far as I got. It occured to me I was pledging to be loyal to something akin to my bedsheet. It's a piece of cloth, and I was promising to be loyal to it! I found it amazingly silly, and haven't said it since.

Now, I've had it explained to me I'm supposed to think of it as pledging to be loyal to my country. Bull. You're pledging to be loyal to a piece of colored cloth... THEN the country "for which it stands".

Ha. I'm not loyal to colored cotton and I knew back then that the country didn't really care about a poor kid from the south at all. We were last on the list, behind third world countries of people the US goverment liked.

Well, for the past couple of decades, I've been having the last laugh.... :Dkid i bow to you

Cute, but the sixth grader in me is still pointing out I'm promising to be loyal to a piece of cloth.

It is more than a piece of cloth. It is the symbol of our nation.

It is more than a piece of cloth. It is the symbol of our nation.

I'm not loyal to a symbol. Nation? Maybe. Piece of Cloth? Nope, they burn too easy.

I'm not loyal to a symbol. Nation? Maybe. Piece of Cloth? Nope, they burn too easy.

ugh! It is the symbol of this nation. The United States of America. The land of the free and the home of the brave. Don't you know anything of history?

I pay my taxes because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I would fight if drafted because it is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

If I chose to refuse to be drafted I would accept all penalties associated with that decision because that is the law in my country, not because I am directly loyal to my country.

I guess my point is this: is loyalty to a country required of citizens, or merely loyalty to that country's laws? Does demanding loyalty to the country itself cause unnecessary political bickering as each side tries to defend its own view of its country and paint their opponents as disloyal?
That is really sad.

nation came and go nations will full these and us are no deffernt. and the world is more inportent then a nation.the kid is riet
i plege allegiance to the world i love. and the peple of the world i love.to aceving world peace. to mackeing the world better.

nation came and go nations will full these and us are no deffernt. and the world is more inportent then a nation.the kid is riet
i plege allegiance to the world i love. and the peple of the world i love.to aceving world peace. to mackeing the world better.

I hate to break this to you Worldworkers but there will never be world peace.

That is really sad.

My parents are lawyers. I think it's in my blood.

i must disagree these is acevabel you complan the is no peace so do someing about it.so far only talk ya you miet be a cidazion of your nation but you aer one of the world too. if 10%of the world got up and went on straiec or march and keep these up for a little waiel and maed the demands no moer war. and chanting a slogen we are sick of war we are one world thing woud change. :fluffle:

IN all matters of discipline, one will be useless unless he has great pride. Unless one is determined to move the clan by himself, all his discipline will come to naught. Although, liek a tea kettle, it is easy for one's enthusiasm to cool, there is a way to keep this from happening. My own vows are the following:
Never to be outdone in the Way of the Samurai.
To be of good use to the master.
To be filial to my parents.
To manifest great Compassion, and work for the sake of Man.
I one dedicates these four vows to the gods and Buddhas every morning, he will ahve the strength of two men and never slip backward. One must edge forward like the inchworm, bit by bit. The gods and Buddhas, too, first started with a vow.
-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

There have been many arguments that the Pledge is useless, meaningless, and or not being taken seriously. I, for one, think that it depends on the person. Yes, there are many people who don't recite the Pledge or who say it only in a monotone voice. Being in the 11th grade, the teacher and I are usually the only people saying it out loud. Pride for one's country has greatly deminished over time, by what I can tell (Which isn't very much since I haven't been alive that long). Many of the patriotic symbols, holidays, ect. have lost their significance to many people. For example, Independance Day is rarely viewed as the day that the United States of America was born, but as a day to light fireworks, drink bear, and forget about the country. I found it sad that less than a year after September 11, 2001, there were only two flags waving on my street where there had been at least 15.

As has already been stated, people turn less to the benefit of the people (which is the basis for the government) and more to themselves. They say, "I don't want to go to war. I fear dying more than I fear losing my freedoms." If I'm alive, I only want to live in a country that holds democracy dear. AMERICA HAS NOT LOST IT'S CHARM, THE PEOPLE HAVE.

i must disagree these is acevabel you complan the is no peace so do someing about it.so far only talk ya you miet be a cidazion of your nation but you aer one of the world too. if 10%of the world got up and went on straiec or march and keep these up for a little waiel and maed the demands no moer war. and chanting a slogen we are sick of war we are one world thing woud change. :fluffle:

1. Learn how to spell. I can make allowences if its not your first language.

2. Come down to the real world

3. That'll never happen. Wars are a part of human nature. They will occur. You also have people that'll threaten world peace. Your going to need people to stop them.

I agree that things should be done peacefully but once all avenues of discussion have been exhausted, war is the last resort.

One of the things I spend a lot of time on when I teach communications classes is the difference between a symbol and what the symbol represents. All of these "patriotic" symbols are great examples. ---- But so are the foods that Jews can't eat. They don't eat hawks because they kill to live, they do eat chicken because it eats grain, so doesn't harm to live. So by what they eat teaches them how to live. ----In the same way, the flag Which is just a piece of cloth) or the pledge (Which is just a bunch of words) or the national anthem, (which is just a bunch of sound vibrations) teach how people in the country are to live. The symbols themselves are nothing. It's what the symbols communicate that is important. I hear people say that a soldier died for the flag. If he did he wasted his life on cloth. He didn't die for the flag, he died for the freedoms the flag symbolizes. It's hard to look at "freedoms" but they can be communicated through the symbol of the flag, pledge, anthem. etc. It's sort of like buying a souvenir on vacation. The souvenir is just a piece of junk. But, each time you look at it you remember the place. It isn't the place. It doesn't transport you to the place. But it communicates the place to you. I have a two hour lecture on this. Hard to quit typing.

Students who failed to recite the Pledge at my high school were given detention. Students who refused to stand or recite the Pledge were given detention and an F for Life Skills, which was ultimately 10% of one's Semester grade in that particular class. People suffered if they didn't conform and submit. I didn't, but I still did extremely well in my academics.


The school could have been made to pay severely for violating those students' civil rights.

The ACLU would probably have represented them pro bono, if they'd chosen to pursue the matter.

<snip>

I guess my point is this: is loyalty to a country required of citizens, or merely loyalty to that country's laws? Does demanding loyalty to the country itself cause unnecessary political bickering as each side tries to defend its own view of its country and paint their opponents as disloyal?

I'm not certain that loyalty is demanded, except in the most literal sense - moving one's lips to avoid detention is hardly an affirmation of loyalty, nor are the authorities stupid enough to think that such action has meaning.

Can one demand loyalty, or anything that comes from the heart? You can't demand love, for instance. But you can ask nicely.

I think that the 'bickering' is healthy enough, we're a nation that tolerates, and even encourages, questioning and differences of opinion. The Pledge contributes little to the debate - you'll be loyal or not regardless of saying the Pledge. You can be loyal and disagree strongly with policies and actions of your nation, too.

The Pledge, when one has reached intellectual capacity to understand it, is a statement of understanding and commitment to our country. I think affirming loyalty is a good thing, if you feel that way, a repetition of shared values with other Americans. If you don't mean it don't say it. Personally I think if you mean it, then you should stand out of respect. If you have the respect, then place your hand over your heart or salute, if appropriate.

I dont think I've ever been asked to say the pledge in high school. And I didnt form most of my beliefs(bar atheism) before high school.