NationStates Jolt Archive

Why does it seem like certain well-off white men in America feel that they've been handed the short end of the stick? Those who are against affirmative action, against Native Americans opening casinos, against the Muslim community, against social programs, against feminist movements and etc. You can say, "wait I don't mind the Muslim community as a whole" or "I like casinos" but I think you get my drift. In what way are white men disadvantaged in this society? My opinion is that the advantages of white men with a paying job are much more subtle than they were in pre-sixties America. It's not quite so obvious to a white man with only his own point of view to go on.

Why does it seem like certain well-off white men in America feel that they've been handed the short end of the stick? Those who are against affirmative action, against Native Americans opening casinos, against the Muslim community, against social programs, against feminist movements and etc. You can say, "wait I don't mind the Muslim community as a whole" or "I like casinos" but I think you get my drift. In what way are white men disadvantaged in this society? My opinion is that the advantages of white men with a paying job are much more subtle than they were in pre-sixties America. It's not quite so obvious to a white man with only his own point of view to go on.
And you are .... ??

Why does it seem like certain well-off white men in America feel that they've been handed the short end of the stick? Those who are against affirmative action, against Native Americans opening casinos, against the Muslim community, against social programs, against feminist movements and etc. You can say, "wait I don't mind the Muslim community as a whole" or "I like casinos" but I think you get my drift. In what way are white men disadvantaged in this society? My opinion is that the advantages of white men with a paying job are much more subtle than they were in pre-sixties America. It's not quite so obvious to a white man with only his own point of view to go on.

Don't you mean "prejudiced white men?"

I am a white male, I don't care about AA, I don't care about the casinos, I am not against the Muslim community, some social programs are needed, the feminists don't bother me.

You still have an advantage in this country for simply being white.

I oppose government waste and bureaucracy, and social programs are more of that than actual benefit. It simply doesn't work to give people money without any kind of supervision or requirements. That's why the African American community has so many economic problems; they are enslaved to welfare, and no one wants to help them because welfare dependence=votes.

Nothing wrong with casinos, or Muslims, or most feminists (other than those who are outright anti-men), or anything else. As long as they follow the law and respect me, I will respect, and quite often support their actions and viewpoints. Plus, casinos bring a lot of money in to the economy.

The problem I have with affirmative action is that it is inherently anti-competitive. It uses race as a factor for admission, which is discrimination. Personally, I think there should be no question of race whatsoever on applications, because it classifies us by skin color rather than merit.

It is high time that Whitey got a break.

And you are .... ??
I'm a cookie. It doesn't really matter, does it?
Also, if what I'm saying doesn't apply to you, I didn't direct to you.

Poor heterosexual white men. I cry myself to sleep every night over their situation. :rolleyes:

It is high time that Whitey got a break.

Word!

Poor heterosexual white men. I cry myself to sleep every night over their situation. :rolleyes:

I thought you did that because you were alone! ;)

The problem with being against affirmative action is that if you are white you already have an advantage over other races in getting into college. A study was done by some yale professors that indicated that affirmative action only helps minorities and does nothing to disadvantage white students.

I thought you did that because you were alone! ;)

Finding someone to sleep with is not that hard. It's the getting them to leave once you're done that can be a hassle. :p

The problem with being against affirmative action is that if you are white you already have an advantage over other races in getting into college. A study was done by some yale professors that indicated that affirmative action only helps minorities and does nothing to disadvantage white students.

I'd rather get rid of race altogether as a piece of information on applications and review students only on their merit. In fact, I'd like applicants to be identified only by an application number, to prevent racists from weeding out people because their names are "black sounding", or anything else. It would be a proverbial blind judge.

Finding someone to sleep with is not that hard. It's the getting them to leave once you're done that can be a hassle. :p

Switch that around for me, at least.

I'd rather get rid of race altogether as a piece of information on applications and review students only on their merit. In fact, I'd like applicants to be identified only by an application number, to prevent racists from weeding out people because their names are "black sounding", or anything else. It would be a proverbial blind judge.
I'm all for something along those lines.

I'm all for something along those lines.

Well then, I guess we agree. :)

The problem with being against affirmative action is that if you are white you already have an advantage over other races in getting into college. A study was done by some yale professors that indicated that affirmative action only helps minorities and does nothing to disadvantage white students.
Well, lets pretend a college wanted to fill one more spot for college. There is a white guy and a black guy. If the black guy gets an advantage because of Affirmative Action, then even if it doesn't get him in, the white guy is getting a disadvantage. When it helps minorities, it has negative impacts on everyone else, namely white students.

Well then, I guess we agree. :)
:x But I wanted to disagree with somebody!

Well, lets pretend a college wanted to fill one more spot for college. There is a white guy and a black guy. If the black guy gets an advantage because of Affirmative Action, then even if it doesn't get him in, the white guy is getting a disadvantage. When it helps minorities, it has negative impacts on everyone else, namely white students.
That doesn't happen. Your hypothetical is only that.

I'd rather get rid of race altogether as a piece of information on applications and review students only on their merit. In fact, I'd like applicants to be identified only by an application number, to prevent racists from weeding out people because their names are "black sounding", or anything else. It would be a proverbial blind judge.

That's still hard as they are other indicators such as where they live and what schools they attended.

Don't know if you can really invent a color blind way to review apps. I guess you just have to weed out the racists?

:x But I wanted to disagree with somebody!

I don't think you'll find many white men who really feel disadvantaged, at least on NS. A lot of them aren't around for long, or start flaming.

I don't think you'll find many white men who really feel disadvantaged, at least on NS. A lot of them aren't around for long, or start flaming.
But white men complain so much about minorities whenever something is done in their favor.

That's still hard as they are other indicators such as where they live and what schools they attended.

This kind of system is far from perfect; there would be a lot of issues surrounding it, and it would take time to work out properly.

Don't know if you can really invent a color blind way to review apps. I guess you just have to weed out the racists?

The problem is, racism becomes more subtle the higher up you go (in my opinion, subtle racism and discrimination are the most repulsive). There has to be some kind of system that is able to sideline racism, and unfortunately there isn't one that can do that with at least general certainty yet.

In regard to white people being having advantages or disadvantages. It may be true that in many instance it is better to be a white person in the US. That obviously isn't fair. The problem is that the government/employers/schools saw this and decided to put a policy down that gives minorities an advantage. I don't think it was the governments job to get in there and help the black/hispanic/asian person get a job over an equally talented white person. And although I have disagreed with this law for many, many years, I think it has become more and more obsolete. Affirmative Action is in my mind reverse discrimination, the wrong way to tackle what used to be a real problem. I would prefer they just get rid of that law and try and not make race an issue.

But white men complain so much about minorities whenever something is done in their favor.

It is usually a combination of jealousy and racism (although there are genuine cases of discrimination, they're few and far between). They feel that the minority got that because of their race, rather than accepting the possibility that they either earned it or deserved it. It gives them a scapegoat to blame their problems on.

Something to think about. Minorities voted majority Kerry. Women voted majority Kerry. There aren't any statistics on it, but I can only imagine that most homosexuals voted Kerry.

So Bush won on the white strait male vote.

That doesn't happen. Your hypothetical is only that.
One of my good friends (white) from high school was turned down by his favorite college that used Affirmative Action. Another student (mexican) from my high school also applied for that college, but he got in. Both of them were towards the upper end of the class rank wise. They both got to see the sheets in which they were given points for different accomplishments. The only thing that got the student of the minority above my friend was his race. This might not happen all that often, but it definitley does. (The white guy ended up taking the year off of school to work and then reapplying for that college the next year and he got in, so there still was a happy ending)

Eh, my main sentiment on Affirmative Action is that it has never been shone to have any evidence of actually helping the culture, but more as a vehicle to escape from the culture. Which is less dealing with a problem and more denying that there really is one and hoping it'll go away over time or that it'll stay the way it is until it's the next guy's problem.

I oppose government waste and bureaucracy, and social programs are more of that than actual benefit. It simply doesn't work to give people money without any kind of supervision or requirements. That's why the African American community has so many economic problems; they are enslaved to welfare, and no one wants to help them because welfare dependence=votes.

Nothing wrong with casinos, or Muslims, or most feminists (other than those who are outright anti-men), or anything else. As long as they follow the law and respect me, I will respect, and quite often support their actions and viewpoints. Plus, casinos bring a lot of money in to the economy.

The problem I have with affirmative action is that it is inherently anti-competitive. It uses race as a factor for admission, which is discrimination. Personally, I think there should be no question of race whatsoever on applications, because it classifies us by skin color rather than merit.

AMEN BROTHA!

You know, AA still hurts Asians, not just whites.

In fact, it actually hurts Asians more then whites, because a study showed that Affirminative Action (back in the 1600 days of the SATs), gave Asian a -50 disadvantage, and blacks a +230 advantage.

You know, AA still hurts Asians, not just whites.

In fact, it actually hurts Asians more then whites, because a study showed that Affirminative Action (back in the 1600 days of the SATs), gave Asian a -50 disadvantage, and blacks a +230 advantage.

Damn, now that's really not right.

Ok, please don't take this as racist, but im sure someone will. I had an additional thought. One thing that is keeping black people (in general) from being able to fit in as a typical citizen of equal status, is that at least some of the vocal ones demand better treatment. With extremists running around screaming we need to tax white people to pay back black people for us enslaving them, it is hard for white people to accept black people. If black people (the vocal ones again) keep saying that white people don't respect them or if they keep on saying that we are discriminating them or anything of the sort, we aren't going to be able to accept them as one of us. My advice would be if they (again, the vocal ones) would just stop claiming to be so much different than us white people, then everyone could just get along. I really don't hold anything against black people, my problem is that so many black people i see decide to fit the black stereotype of a lazy student who does drugs or someone who goes on welfare. As Bill Cosby said, if black people will stop their jive talk and try to just blend in as many other people of different cultures have done, we all will get along just fine.

You know, AA still hurts Asians, not just whites.

In fact, it actually hurts Asians more then whites, because a study showed that Affirminative Action (back in the 1600 days of the SATs), gave Asian a -50 disadvantage, and blacks a +230 advantage.
One point that I feel needs to be corrected.
I'm not sure how, though. This is an interesting article on it.
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S11/80/77I23/index.xml?section=topstories

Damn white devils! They just can't stop keepin' the black man down! Bastards!

Speaking as a white male, I recognize that there are certain cultural benefits such as the fact the people tend to hire like people, and most employers are also white males.


That being said, although I recognize that previous generations of white males ACTIVELY engaged in practices that were of a discriminatory nature (and that some still do), I rather resent sometimes people expecting me to apologize for it.

I believe in the rights of all people to get as far as they can in life, and recognize that certain historical cultural disadvantages still require some active intervention in order to provide a level playing field.

But when the rhetoric comes out from the militant wings of so many of these groups with blanket accusations about my skin colour and gender and attempting to lump me in with a long history of oppression, my answer to them is:

"Fuck right off. I belive in equal rights. I believe in equal opportunity. And I believe that my great grandfather was probably a mysoginist bigot. It's not MY job to apologize for that. And if you think that insulting me with an ad hominem attack does anything to build the trust and respect needed for us both to reach our common goals then you are not terribly bright"

At which point they try to say something along the lines of :"See! Attacking me! I was right you ARE a bigot!"


Bullshit. I treat people with the respect that they deserve, and in a like manner to how they treat me - regardless of age, colour, orientation, or gender.



I'm not disadvantaged.


And I'm not a bigot.


But I'm not going to be anyones political punching bag either.

Wasn't directed at you, then.